Hendrik
05-17-2009, 12:05 PM
Since VTM promoting this
http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html
VTM is obligated to provide reasons to the general WCners who are the decendents of the Red Boat Opera actors WCK or ancestor YIM WIng Chun.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BLACK FLAG
刘永福(1837年―1917年)，字渊亭，广东钦州(今属广西)人。
Liu Yong-Fu a cantonese. (1837 - 1917)
早年当过水手。咸丰七年(1857年)后，先后参加郑三、吴亚忠领导的反清起义军，以七星黑旗为军旗，称黑 旗军。
Liu was a sailor when he was young. after 1857, Liu had involved with the Anti -Qing uprising solder leads by Zhen San, Wu Ya-Chung.
Using Seven stars black flag as thier army flag, Thus, it is called the Black Flag Army.
'同治六年(1867年)，清军进攻吴亚忠的黑旗军，
1867 Qing army attact Wu Ya-Chung's black flag army.
次年刘永福率余部三百余人进驻保胜(今越南老街)，屯垦安民。队伍很快发展到两千余人，由于军纪严明，深受 当地群众拥护。
1868, Liu Yong-Fu leads the rest of the Black flag army, around 300 solders, enter into Bao Sen (today's VietNam old street) planting and settle the people. The (black flag army) grows to around 2000 solders.
Because this is a very discipline army, the local people loves and support them.
同治十二年，法国侵略军进攻越南河内等地，他应越方要求，率黑旗军与越军联合作战，
1872 (the twelve years of qing emperor Tong Tze) France army invaded Vietnam.
Liu was requested by Vietnam for help. Liu leads the Black flag army union with the Vietnam army to fight the France army.
在河内西郊大败法军，斩法军首领安邺上尉等数百人，乘胜收复河内。次年，越南国王授予他三宣副提督之职，让 他管理宣化、兴化、山西三省。
Liu defeat the France army in Vietnam, be headed a few hunderds France army leaders.
Vietnam's king appointed him to rule three states.
So, Yes, Black Flag Army is Anti-Qing. The Leader Liu Yong-Fu was know in the history of China clearly.
http://baike.baidu.com/view/29951.htm
刘永福（1837-1917），字渊亭，本名义，广西上思人。雇工出身，原为广西天地会领袖，1865年起义失败，受清政府镇 压，率300人出镇南关（今友谊关）
Liu Yong-Fu, a West-Cantoness, A worker, He was a leader of West Canton's Tien Die Wui ( HUng Mun) . 1865 involve in anti-Qing uprising but lost, suppress by the Qing, lead 300 people fleet.....
So, Black Flag army exist, clearly in the Chinese history. The leader Liu Yong-Fu is seen as hero for some.
As for how is this Black Flag army got to do with WCK? that is a quesition for VTM.
-----------------------------
RED BANDANA
We today could have accessed to these information. Now, look into Red Bandana? What histody record is
http://www.fsonline.com.cn/aaf/foshan/culture/lsmr/200508250064.htm
李文茂是清道光末年至咸丰初年粤剧凤凰仪班著名“打武家”，出身梨园世家，体格魁梧，声若洪钟，精于击 刺等武功
Lee Man Mau a member of Cantonese Opera the Pheonix group, he was a famous martial artists. As a opera actor, he has strong body and expert in martial arts.
1853年，太平军攻克南京后，洪秀全接纳部将罗大纲保举，派密使到广东寻找反清群众组织领导人，策划武装 力量，以期南北配合，推翻清廷。先在佛山大基尾琼花会馆找到李文茂，再联络得广东天地会领袖陈开、陈金刚等 人，密谋起义。
1853 Taiping army capture Nanjing. The Taiping heavenly King Hung Xiu Chuan send his people to Canton to look for local Anti-Qing group's leader.... to over thrown Qing Dynasty.
Hung's people, found Lee Man mau in the Fine Jade (opera) association.. and make contact with the Canton's Dien Dee Hui/ Hung Mun leaders Chen Kai, Chen Cin-Kang and others for secret meeting on uprising to over thrown Qing dynasty.
时适戏班反抗戏捐，殴打税吏，
红船子弟和城市贫民都趋之若鹜。李文茂便以戏班中的健儿为骨干编建三军，曰“文虎军”、“猛虎军”、“飞虎 军”。他自穿戏班中的蟒袍甲胄，其余将官均按品位穿着明朝戏服。女官由女花旦充任，戴七星额，穿女蟒袍。后 因义军人数激增，戏服不足，便一律以红巾扎头代替冠盔，故称红巾军。他们利用戏班中的翻筋斗超跃、腾跳等武 打功夫，飞登城楼，攻击敌阵，使守城清兵惊慌失措，弃城而逃。文茂起义伊始，仅数千人，很快就拥有数万之众 。而且“旬日间，连下数十州县”声威大振。连清廷统治阶级也不得不承认他们“战功懋著，有似吞 舟之鲸”。
At that time, the Opera house against being taxing and beat the Qing tax officers.
The follower of Red Boat and the poor citizen of the city very please.. Lee Man Mau selected the skill actors and assign them to become the anti-qing army.... later due to fast grow of this army and there is not enough uniform for them, they all use the Red bandana to replace hat. This is why it is called the Red Bandana army.
http://www.beiyang.org/mrt/liuyongfu.htm
Now, Who is Hung Gum Biu? How to prove he existed?
How is Hung Gum Biu related to the Red Bandana army?
We need to have an evidence as clear As for Liu Yong-Fu's identity
and how is Hung Gum Bui related to WCK? How is HFY related to WCK?
These are again, questions for VTM
------------------------------
For RED BOAT OPERA WCK, what we know and consistence with the History of China;
(1853年，太平军攻克南京后，洪秀全接纳部将罗大纲保举，派密使到广东寻找反清群众组织领导人，策划武 装力量，以期南北配合，推翻清廷。先在佛山大基尾琼花会馆找到李文茂，再联络得广东天地会领袖陈开、陈金刚 等人，密谋起义。
1853 Taiping army capture Nanjing. The Taiping heavenly King Hung Xiu Chuan send his people to Canton to look for local Anti-Qing group's leader.... to over thrown Qing Dynasty.
李文茂便以戏班中的健儿为骨干编建三军，曰“文虎军”、“猛虎军”、“飞虎军”。他自穿戏班中的蟒袍甲胄， 其余将官均按品位穿着明朝戏服。女官由女花旦充任，戴七星额，穿女蟒袍。
Lee Man Mau selected the skill actors and assign them to become the anti-qing army....)
IS
we known the code name of the above activity for some RED BOAT OPERA WCK ancestors
As I mention in this forum and other forum a few time, Yes, there is code to identify oneself in the Red Boat era.
In fact, From the WCK group of the Red Boat opera members at that time, still embedded within the SLT and 6.5 pole set as for today, we know the following code today:
反清 復明 五湖四海 十指連心 遝我河山
Over turn the Qing, Return to Ming, Five lakes four seas, ten fingers with the same heart, return me my country.
劍指膀肘逞英雄
Sword finger, Bong Elbow present to the Hero (Ying Hung)
(Ying Hung was used in that era for to refer to the Hung Mun because the pronouciation of Hung in hero is similar to the Hung of Hung Mun.)
-----------------------------------------
Notice the following CLF stanza, in the following site, it starts also with Ying Hong. and we know CLF was also involved in the uprising activity in the same era of 1800's
http://www.hongshengguan.com/his.htm
----------------------------------
Note:
This Ying Hung term ( the reverse writing and same pronouciation of Hung Ying, the Hung Mun or Dien Die Wu ) also could be found in YUE YUAN / Dim Chun hall exhibit of Shang Hai. there is a picture on the Shang Hai Ying Hung Stanza some where in the old article in Rene's site.
One can sees the activities between Shang Hai, Taiping, Canton, Opera....etc at that era. Rene and Robert have written a series of details article on these.
http://www.w1ng.com/shanghai-connect...un-siu-do-wui/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDVkK...eature=related
半点子午定太平
Half Point of center spear settle the Tai Ping
( Taiping for Tai Ping Tien Kuo, )http://wsu.edu/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM
Thus, as a conclusion, among with other southern martial arts group for example CLF,
We know WCK ancestors involve in the Join effort activity of Taiping and Hung Mun which try to over thrown Qing Dynasty in the 1850
Lee Man Mau who is the chief leader of this over thrown Qing army (which later was named the Red Bandana army in the Chinese history) .
--------------------------------------------------------------------
As a conclusion,
Since VTM is and have been promoting thier research on the Black and Red group;
If would be resonable for WCners to know these BLACK and RED group leader's real identity, thier group identity, and code name of thier group in the operation, and how are them related to WCK in the 1850.
These are the expectation evidence VTM needs to supply to promoting a family tree such as the following
http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html
http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html
VTM is obligated to provide reasons to the general WCners who are the decendents of the Red Boat Opera actors WCK or ancestor YIM WIng Chun.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BLACK FLAG
刘永福(1837年―1917年)，字渊亭，广东钦州(今属广西)人。
Liu Yong-Fu a cantonese. (1837 - 1917)
早年当过水手。咸丰七年(1857年)后，先后参加郑三、吴亚忠领导的反清起义军，以七星黑旗为军旗，称黑 旗军。
Liu was a sailor when he was young. after 1857, Liu had involved with the Anti -Qing uprising solder leads by Zhen San, Wu Ya-Chung.
Using Seven stars black flag as thier army flag, Thus, it is called the Black Flag Army.
'同治六年(1867年)，清军进攻吴亚忠的黑旗军，
1867 Qing army attact Wu Ya-Chung's black flag army.
次年刘永福率余部三百余人进驻保胜(今越南老街)，屯垦安民。队伍很快发展到两千余人，由于军纪严明，深受 当地群众拥护。
1868, Liu Yong-Fu leads the rest of the Black flag army, around 300 solders, enter into Bao Sen (today's VietNam old street) planting and settle the people. The (black flag army) grows to around 2000 solders.
Because this is a very discipline army, the local people loves and support them.
同治十二年，法国侵略军进攻越南河内等地，他应越方要求，率黑旗军与越军联合作战，
1872 (the twelve years of qing emperor Tong Tze) France army invaded Vietnam.
Liu was requested by Vietnam for help. Liu leads the Black flag army union with the Vietnam army to fight the France army.
在河内西郊大败法军，斩法军首领安邺上尉等数百人，乘胜收复河内。次年，越南国王授予他三宣副提督之职，让 他管理宣化、兴化、山西三省。
Liu defeat the France army in Vietnam, be headed a few hunderds France army leaders.
Vietnam's king appointed him to rule three states.
So, Yes, Black Flag Army is Anti-Qing. The Leader Liu Yong-Fu was know in the history of China clearly.
http://baike.baidu.com/view/29951.htm
刘永福（1837-1917），字渊亭，本名义，广西上思人。雇工出身，原为广西天地会领袖，1865年起义失败，受清政府镇 压，率300人出镇南关（今友谊关）
Liu Yong-Fu, a West-Cantoness, A worker, He was a leader of West Canton's Tien Die Wui ( HUng Mun) . 1865 involve in anti-Qing uprising but lost, suppress by the Qing, lead 300 people fleet.....
So, Black Flag army exist, clearly in the Chinese history. The leader Liu Yong-Fu is seen as hero for some.
As for how is this Black Flag army got to do with WCK? that is a quesition for VTM.
-----------------------------
RED BANDANA
We today could have accessed to these information. Now, look into Red Bandana? What histody record is
http://www.fsonline.com.cn/aaf/foshan/culture/lsmr/200508250064.htm
李文茂是清道光末年至咸丰初年粤剧凤凰仪班著名“打武家”，出身梨园世家，体格魁梧，声若洪钟，精于击 刺等武功
Lee Man Mau a member of Cantonese Opera the Pheonix group, he was a famous martial artists. As a opera actor, he has strong body and expert in martial arts.
1853年，太平军攻克南京后，洪秀全接纳部将罗大纲保举，派密使到广东寻找反清群众组织领导人，策划武装 力量，以期南北配合，推翻清廷。先在佛山大基尾琼花会馆找到李文茂，再联络得广东天地会领袖陈开、陈金刚等 人，密谋起义。
1853 Taiping army capture Nanjing. The Taiping heavenly King Hung Xiu Chuan send his people to Canton to look for local Anti-Qing group's leader.... to over thrown Qing Dynasty.
Hung's people, found Lee Man mau in the Fine Jade (opera) association.. and make contact with the Canton's Dien Dee Hui/ Hung Mun leaders Chen Kai, Chen Cin-Kang and others for secret meeting on uprising to over thrown Qing dynasty.
时适戏班反抗戏捐，殴打税吏，
红船子弟和城市贫民都趋之若鹜。李文茂便以戏班中的健儿为骨干编建三军，曰“文虎军”、“猛虎军”、“飞虎 军”。他自穿戏班中的蟒袍甲胄，其余将官均按品位穿着明朝戏服。女官由女花旦充任，戴七星额，穿女蟒袍。后 因义军人数激增，戏服不足，便一律以红巾扎头代替冠盔，故称红巾军。他们利用戏班中的翻筋斗超跃、腾跳等武 打功夫，飞登城楼，攻击敌阵，使守城清兵惊慌失措，弃城而逃。文茂起义伊始，仅数千人，很快就拥有数万之众 。而且“旬日间，连下数十州县”声威大振。连清廷统治阶级也不得不承认他们“战功懋著，有似吞 舟之鲸”。
At that time, the Opera house against being taxing and beat the Qing tax officers.
The follower of Red Boat and the poor citizen of the city very please.. Lee Man Mau selected the skill actors and assign them to become the anti-qing army.... later due to fast grow of this army and there is not enough uniform for them, they all use the Red bandana to replace hat. This is why it is called the Red Bandana army.
http://www.beiyang.org/mrt/liuyongfu.htm
Now, Who is Hung Gum Biu? How to prove he existed?
How is Hung Gum Biu related to the Red Bandana army?
We need to have an evidence as clear As for Liu Yong-Fu's identity
and how is Hung Gum Bui related to WCK? How is HFY related to WCK?
These are again, questions for VTM
------------------------------
For RED BOAT OPERA WCK, what we know and consistence with the History of China;
(1853年，太平军攻克南京后，洪秀全接纳部将罗大纲保举，派密使到广东寻找反清群众组织领导人，策划武 装力量，以期南北配合，推翻清廷。先在佛山大基尾琼花会馆找到李文茂，再联络得广东天地会领袖陈开、陈金刚 等人，密谋起义。
1853 Taiping army capture Nanjing. The Taiping heavenly King Hung Xiu Chuan send his people to Canton to look for local Anti-Qing group's leader.... to over thrown Qing Dynasty.
李文茂便以戏班中的健儿为骨干编建三军，曰“文虎军”、“猛虎军”、“飞虎军”。他自穿戏班中的蟒袍甲胄， 其余将官均按品位穿着明朝戏服。女官由女花旦充任，戴七星额，穿女蟒袍。
Lee Man Mau selected the skill actors and assign them to become the anti-qing army....)
IS
we known the code name of the above activity for some RED BOAT OPERA WCK ancestors
As I mention in this forum and other forum a few time, Yes, there is code to identify oneself in the Red Boat era.
In fact, From the WCK group of the Red Boat opera members at that time, still embedded within the SLT and 6.5 pole set as for today, we know the following code today:
反清 復明 五湖四海 十指連心 遝我河山
Over turn the Qing, Return to Ming, Five lakes four seas, ten fingers with the same heart, return me my country.
劍指膀肘逞英雄
Sword finger, Bong Elbow present to the Hero (Ying Hung)
(Ying Hung was used in that era for to refer to the Hung Mun because the pronouciation of Hung in hero is similar to the Hung of Hung Mun.)
-----------------------------------------
Notice the following CLF stanza, in the following site, it starts also with Ying Hong. and we know CLF was also involved in the uprising activity in the same era of 1800's
http://www.hongshengguan.com/his.htm
----------------------------------
Note:
This Ying Hung term ( the reverse writing and same pronouciation of Hung Ying, the Hung Mun or Dien Die Wu ) also could be found in YUE YUAN / Dim Chun hall exhibit of Shang Hai. there is a picture on the Shang Hai Ying Hung Stanza some where in the old article in Rene's site.
One can sees the activities between Shang Hai, Taiping, Canton, Opera....etc at that era. Rene and Robert have written a series of details article on these.
http://www.w1ng.com/shanghai-connect...un-siu-do-wui/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDVkK...eature=related
半点子午定太平
Half Point of center spear settle the Tai Ping
( Taiping for Tai Ping Tien Kuo, )http://wsu.edu/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM
Thus, as a conclusion, among with other southern martial arts group for example CLF,
We know WCK ancestors involve in the Join effort activity of Taiping and Hung Mun which try to over thrown Qing Dynasty in the 1850
Lee Man Mau who is the chief leader of this over thrown Qing army (which later was named the Red Bandana army in the Chinese history) .
--------------------------------------------------------------------
As a conclusion,
Since VTM is and have been promoting thier research on the Black and Red group;
If would be resonable for WCners to know these BLACK and RED group leader's real identity, thier group identity, and code name of thier group in the operation, and how are them related to WCK in the 1850.
These are the expectation evidence VTM needs to supply to promoting a family tree such as the following
http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html