Concave Chest - Curl [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

JPinAZ

05-19-2009, 02:58 PM

Good question. I have never been taught this curl.
From everything I have experienced and understand of the principals of WC, you do not need to curl the chest, or make it concave for power generation. Or, for any reason that I can see. This tends to cause the spine to bend and the shoulders to hunch. This breaks the first understanding of centerline, which is self-centerline. The spine should remain straight and the body upright. This assures we have 50/50 weight distribution to our feet as well as not being overcommitted in any one direction. With the chest concave and the shoulder hunched, the spine is now bent and one can over commit to far fwd. This is something one would then have to recover before we have a neutral self centerline again.

Power in WC for the vertical punch comes from elbow, hip and knee alignment (structurally). This allows you to have a solid structure which is connected through the body and from the ground. Of course, proper breathing, timing, facing, ging, etc also come into play. Not to forget good joint power. But, the chest has nothing to do with any of these things, including breath (which is controlled by the diaphragm vs. chest expansion/contraction).

The ability to receive, deflect, absorb, whatever hard strikes also comes from proper alignment of elbow, hip and knee along with correct stance, facing, etc listed above. Again, IMO, giving up neutrality of self center can only take away from the effectiveness to connect your parts to the ground, and each other.

Not saying this is 'correct' for averybody's WC, just correct for how I understnad the concepts/principals of the system

Jonathan

anerlich

05-19-2009, 03:19 PM

I've not been taught this as part of TWC, but one of my instructors was taught the posture as part of the Northern Sil Lum he studied. It's not used throughout NSL, just certain aspects of some Dragon techniques.

It's main purpose is to protect the front fo the torso, present a smaller target, bring the elbows into the centre, and in some ways (but not others) increase the reach. Not really anything ot do with power generation.

IMO, this posture is biomechanically inefficient for developing power - a rounded spine always is. It does protect the body well, however. Boxers drop their chins and raise their shoulders for similar reasons, though they don't normally round their backs like this.

Pacman

05-19-2009, 08:50 PM

from a website of a Sifu in the Sum Nung Chun family

http://www.wingchunkungfu.org/wing-chun-old-fashioned.html

The switching stance or pigeon toed stance is one of the fundamentals that vary within the families of Wing Chun. We are hunched-back with chest and stomach tucked in, knees bent and hips forward. In our family of Wing Chun the stance is the foundation of techniques and its varying applications. This affords us the ability to strike with power in close combat. Without proper form and utilization, the techniques will not be executed with the necessary force.

if you are fully extended and straight then you are like an uncoiled spring--how can you have quick impulsive explosiveness in your footwork or in your strikes?

inch power comes from turning, pivoting in the pigeon toed stance..or as some say, switching.

if you are fully extended you cannot pivot with as much force and therefore you cannot strike with as much force.

Yoshiyahu

05-20-2009, 09:37 AM

Interesting theory. Now we are getting somewhere. Great keep it coming...

How does Concave chest effect the Chi flow...

from a website of a Sifu in the Sum Nung Chun family

http://www.wingchunkungfu.org/wing-chun-old-fashioned.html

if you are fully extended and straight then you are like an uncoiled spring--how can you have quick impulsive explosiveness in your footwork or in your strikes?

inch power comes from turning, pivoting in the pigeon toed stance..or as some say, switching.

if you are fully extended you cannot pivot with as much force and therefore you cannot strike with as much force.

punchdrunk

05-20-2009, 12:16 PM

I'm not sure if it's the same thing but I do a kind of a "crunch" with my midsection when I strike, it's a small motion that co-ordinates my motion with my breathing. I keep my spine fairly straight and relaxed until I strike at which point I exhale some breath and tighten my abs which pulls my upper torso forward. Does that qualify for a concave chest? It's not something I was taught just something I experimented with on my own but I have seen a few (note: very few) other Wing Chun people do it as well, or at least something similar.

JP I agree with some of what you say about structure, but the chest and abdominal muscles are extremely important as well. Your abs literally connect your lower and upper body and any load bearing or force producing motions need them to be contracted and controlled. The pectorals are responsilbe for any motion of your arms moving across your body from outside to in. Both muscle groups are important in delivering a punch. But that's just a different point of view on structure which both of us could agree is of great importance.

Pacman

05-20-2009, 12:43 PM

Interesting theory. Now we are getting somewhere. Great keep it coming...

How does Concave chest effect the Chi flow...

i dont know, but i do know in tai ji and in qi gong forms that i learned, all joints are supposed to be bent and relaxed including the spine.

anerlich

05-20-2009, 03:24 PM

if you are fully extended and straight then you are like an uncoiled spring--how can you have quick impulsive explosiveness in your footwork or in your strikes?

inch power comes from turning, pivoting in the pigeon toed stance..or as some say, switching.

if you are fully extended you cannot pivot with as much force and therefore you cannot strike with as much force.

The power from turning comes from torsional force, the feet driving the hips which transmit power throught the spine to the shoulders, arm and finally fist. I don't see that rounding the spine would help with transmission of such force and don't accept that you cant transmit force through a non-rounded spine more effectively. Rounding may move the shoulder forward so the punch can go further. Power gained from snapping foward from the waist up IMO is miniscule compared to what comes from the legs and hips.

Rounding the back while trying to exert force is a great way to hurt your back, as the bank balances of many orthopaedic specialists, chiropractors and physiotherapists will attest. My wife has just been through a fairly sever episode of back pain so I've had cause to research this fairly well of late and talk with a few professionals

Tensing the midsection works. but not to the extent of hollowing out the stomach. the abs contract in a straight line, so diverting from that weakens the structure. I agree the pecs are important to link the arm to the torso to transmit power, but IMO the lats and other back muscles are what drive the shoulders. The abs hold it all together.

JPinAZ

05-20-2009, 03:38 PM

if you are fully extended and straight then you are like an uncoiled spring--how can you have quick impulsive explosiveness in your footwork or in your strikes?

From my experience, quick and explosive footwork comes from hip and knee joint power (and to some extent, the heel). I don't see how a concave chest helps in this regard. But explosive foot work isn't always necessary for powerful strikes. What if I'm already in position to strike?
Explosiveness in strikes is from a few things. Of course there should be structure in a punch, as I listed previously. Explosiveness comes from proper breath & core muscles (as punchdrunk mentioned above – thanks for that one!), bone compression and release (dip gwat gung), whole body connectivity of elbow hip and knee working together (Tien Yan Dei/Heaven Human Earth), on/off energy, etc. All of this together could be considered ‘ging’ I guess.

Haha, then again, I just line my parts up, give out a quick breath and explode  It’s kinda like asking a runner how he explodes off the starting blocks. Of course there’s good form, but how does one explain exploding with energy.....

inch power comes from turning, pivoting in the pigeon toed stance..or as some say, switching.

if you are fully extended you cannot pivot with as much force and therefore you cannot strike with as much force.

Not sure what you mean by fully extended?
Also, I never fight from a YJKYM/squared up stance with both toes pointing in, nore pivot much so-to-speak, so having a hard time relating to what you are saying here. Could you please explain further? Or post a video of what you mean?
Thanks!

Jonathan

** after reading Anerlich's post, I would also agree with what he is saying here for the most part

anerlich

05-20-2009, 03:47 PM

My aforementioned instructor also showed me what he called "horse-trembling power", which is like a sudden drop of the bodyweight combined with a twist and exhalation. "Like sneezing", is what he said. No mention of a rounded back.

This guy could hit HARD. he used to do lots of breaking demos, including eight roof tiles with a backfist, a technique derided by some as lacking in power. However, he was a nidan in Goju Ryu before he took up KF.

chusauli

05-20-2009, 04:46 PM

The pelvic girdle and shoulder girdle needs to be aligned and upwards/forward.

If it is hunchback, you will feel a concentration of power, but not reach your full potential.

When you "open" up the chest - you explode forward with your strike - giving you additional whipping and driving force behind your strike. Also, mentally, you are more keen and able to better control your emotions, incoming pressure, and more alert to see the situation on hand.

WCK like an animal, you are round shouldered and hunchbacked.

WCK like a human being, your chest is aligned with your Dan Tian (Pelvis) and Yin Tang (Forehead). These 3 points are considered the 3 dan tian.

Pacman

05-20-2009, 05:06 PM

if you are standing there with a straight back, shoulders back. how can you 'explode' anywhere? you are already fully extended.

The pelvic girdle and shoulder girdle needs to be aligned and upwards/forward.

If it is hunchback, you will feel a concentration of power, but not reach your full potential.

When you "open" up the chest - you explode forward with your strike - giving you additional whipping and driving force behind your strike. Also, mentally, you are more keen and able to better control your emotions, incoming pressure, and more alert to see the situation on hand.

WCK like an animal, you are round shouldered and hunchbacked.

WCK like a human being, your chest is aligned with your Dan Tian (Pelvis) and Yin Tang (Forehead). These 3 points are considered the 3 dan tian.

couch

05-20-2009, 05:24 PM

When you "open" up the chest - you explode forward with your strike - giving you additional whipping and driving force behind your strike. Also, mentally, you are more keen and able to better control your emotions, incoming pressure, and more alert to see the situation on hand.

I agree. When you 'open' up the chest, you 'open' up yourself. Wing Chun is a very heart-felt style, IMO. You're confident, showing your whole chest to your opponent...not shying away from combat... There's a trust in it all: a trust in the time you've spent in your art, a trust in the techniques, and a trust in yourself. This all comes out in the posture, too!

chusauli

05-20-2009, 05:31 PM

if you are standing there with a straight back, shoulders back. how can you 'explode' anywhere? you are already fully extended.

Why jump to conclusions? What makes you think that you are fully extended? You must be missing something...

WCK Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma has 3 positions:

1) Neutral
2) Forward
3) Defensive

When you are in Neutral, you can still move to Forward....

Yoshiyahu

05-20-2009, 06:29 PM

I think the key is some lineages use different techniques. While some use the straight back others use a concave chest similiar to Bak Mei. While others use the Curl in reverse to generate power. Meaning they curl upon impact to gain more distance.

But whats interesting is which ever you train for a long period of time you will become comfortable with. Allowing you to use easily. So really its all about training and what works best for you. Instead of finding faults with using the curl or straight body method. Lets merely impress on benefits of both and how they work for you.

anerlich

05-20-2009, 08:09 PM

Instead of finding faults with using the curl or straight body method. Lets merely impress on benefits of both and how they work for you.

Both have benefits and faults. Ignoring the faults gets you nowhere.

if you are standing there with a straight back, shoulders back. how can you 'explode' anywhere? you are already fully extended.

I don't think he said that. Even if he did, you can still generate power by turning at the waist and/or using footwork.

Also, I never fight from a YJKYM/squared up stance with both toes pointing in

Me neither.

Hendrik

05-20-2009, 10:33 PM

a hunch back concave chest screw up the diaphragm, breathing and spine, thus lung, stomach, liver and heart will be weaken. the spine will be mis aligned and the whole body physical structure will be comprimise, the breath intake will be partial thus the blood circulation will be compremise.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/19380.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/imagepages/19380.htm&usg=__EFM9qW-3JqgAYTbZt_qvYyQqZJQ=&h=320&w=400&sz=21&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=u_LVhbD4nG1D4M:&tbnh=99&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddiaphragm%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefo x-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3D1TL%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

This is what the chinese means by the Ren Mai or Ren Medirian stuck.

It is very ridiculus to teach one to be in hunch back to get more power...etc. Absolutely crazy.

In Qi training in SLT , Ren mai is the first need to be open up. it is to open this stuckness, that is to make the diaphragm active/alive /fully function again.

SLT which is a nature internal training, it is absurd to adopt the hunch back ....which will weaken and damage the internal organs' operation.

Spine is the path of the Du medirian, When the spine is in a wrong positioning, the Kidney will be compremised, the brain will not get enough blood flow.... Hunch back cause these issue. This is called Du medirian stuck.

The second training in Qi is to open up the Du medirian's stuck.

Then the third training is to open the Dai Mai,

Then, the Ying/yang Cio and Ying/ yang Wei, only then one is capable of fully fajing or rooting (instead of partial not well handle brute forcing)

There are physical significant in open up all of these eigth channels.

As what I have heard.

The body at that time is feeling lite in weight and empty. Similar to wearing a lite silk long dress and levitating in the air.

Those who got Diabetes, as I have heard, Cured/ healed after the Ying/Yang Cio and Ying/Yang Wei channels open up.

Spine is weak stuffs, it is out of mind trying to brute force power with spine.

Didnt eveyone argue with me about Rooting...etc ? where is your so called rooting when you are thinking or speculating using hunch back/ coil mis align spine to generate LOCALIZED muscular power?

It is a mess in WCK. Terence is correct in a way that TCMA is just full of it. I totally agree with him. However, that TCMA Terence means is what the TCMA we see in general today. In the Ancient time, that is not the way at all.

as in the Zen saying,

The dummy teaching the dummy,
one is teaching but both have no clue.
The sifu goes to hell.
Where do you think the student end up.

Sure, sure, everyone is sifu these days, everyone have a full of it interpretation about rooting, fajing..... all arguements. and wasting of live. Doing MMA is much better then dong these stupid damaging stuffs.

What TCMA? all full of crap and Terence is right.

But then how many including Terence has seen the real deal? That power engine which can transcent and transform weak into strong? sad indeed, sad indeed?

Where is SLT/SNT? gone with the wind. no more. what people do these days are worse then Dancing.

A sad song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4oPWINVVEw&feature=related

When I try to explain how I feel
That I still need your love after all that I've done...

You won't believe me...

They are illusions
They are not the solutions they promised to be
The answer was here all the time
I love you and hope you love me

Don't cry for me Argentina

Have I said too much?
There's nothing more I can think of to say to you.
But all you have to do is look at me to know
That every word is true

You want to learn to fight? first dont commit suicide with damaging training.

TenTigers

05-20-2009, 10:54 PM

words on paper do not translate as hand on hand.
Too much emphasis is placed on trying to learn from words, rather than being taught through direct transmission. We cannot fully express into words what we feel, just as you cannot with words describe what chocolate tastes like, or what an itch feels like.
Example is when teaching the ma bo. We always hear," tuck in the sacrum," but does it really mean tuck it in, or as you often see people trying to do this and tucking their hips under.
Rather, it means not to allow the hip to stick out, and slightly tuck the sacrum to maintain proper alignment.
But, it's on paper. When your Sifu shows you how, suddenly it becomes clear.

The same goes with the so-called hunchbacked position.
If your chin is tucked-just enough to straighten the spine at the base of the skull, and not have the chin jutting out like a Marine grunt, if your sacrum is tucked, not under, but straight in alignment, if your elbows are in, not so your arms look like the alien chest burster, but so the upper arms protect the intercoastals, and the elbow is aligned, it is not so much hunched. The contracting and expanding of the body's core, (dip guat ging, FCTT,) allows the body to faht ging.

Hendrick is right and wrong:
Right, that a hunched over position is unhealthy.
Wrong in that it is an incorrect interpetation of the way that structure is done.

Moderation, (we can say middle path and be deep an' all Buddhist-like..). Not too hunched, and not too upright. Chin jutting out, chest wide open is not correct either.
If you think otherwise, you probably haven't fought much.

Hendrik

05-20-2009, 11:05 PM

Hendrick is right and wrong:
Right, that a hunched over position is unhealthy.
Wrong in that it is an incorrect interpetation of the way that structure is done.

have you open your ren and du medirian ? if not I would not post the above.

Moderation, (we can say middle path and be deep an' all Buddhist-like..).

Not too hunched, and not too upright. Chin jutting out, chest wide open is not correct either.

If you think otherwise, you probably haven't fought much.

Moderation? what the heck is moderation?

To be real honest but blunt, What you propose is a totally misleading.

BTW.

(we can say middle path and be deep an' all Buddhist-like..).

is also a totally misleading.

To be real polite, you dont know SLT/SNT or WCK, so, what you offer is actually poison to the WCners.

Everyone's breathing, diaphram and Spine are telling the truth, and that you dont know.

Fight with your moderation ideas? I take Terence path and go learn MMA.

Hendrik

05-20-2009, 11:15 PM

The contracting and expanding of the body's core, (dip guat ging, FCTT,) allows the body to faht ging.
.

day dreaming and misleading for WCner.

sorry if you guys think I am rude.

all these seems logical but fault ideas this is the reason why SLT/SNT gone with the wind. and I am really sad.

you dont believe me? go train with these moderate ideas above on your SLT for 3 years and see what you will achieve?

I rather go learn MMA for 3 months .

JPinAZ

05-21-2009, 08:24 AM

Hendrik, in case you missed it (which you obviously did by reading all your long winded, idiotic, self ego stroking ramblings), I think the original poster was talking about actually using WC with/without the concave chest. What do you know about that?

Read below, if you can:

What is the Curl In Wing Chun. Some say the Chest is concaved. So is sinking your chest beneficial. What is the purpose of sinking in the chest and expanding the back?

How does the curl affect the power in your strikes?

How does the curl affect your ability to absorb hard strikes?

Please share your opinions on theory behind the concave chest?

Like you cry on all the other threads, why not actually stick to the topic?

Hendrik

05-21-2009, 09:05 AM

Hendrik, in case you missed it (which you obviously did by reading all your long winded, idiotic, self ego stroking ramblings), I think the original poster was talking about actually using WC with/without the concave chest.

What do you know about that?
:

I know you are clueless on SLT/SNT and WCK body/qi/mind strucutre.
But full of self-rigtheousness cult BS.

t_niehoff

05-21-2009, 09:12 AM

words on paper do not translate as hand on hand.
Too much emphasis is placed on trying to learn from words, rather than being taught through direct transmission.

A trenchant observation.

The same goes with the so-called hunchbacked position.
If your chin is tucked-just enough to straighten the spine at the base of the skull, and not have the chin jutting out like a Marine grunt, if your sacrum is tucked, not under, but straight in alignment, if your elbows are in, not so your arms look like the alien chest burster, but so the upper arms protect the intercoastals, and the elbow is aligned, it is not so much hunched. The contracting and expanding of the body's core, (dip guat ging, FCTT,) allows the body to faht ging.

Agreed.

I've found over the years that there are in WCK several different and IMO perfectly valid (functionally) "ways" of using the body in WCK (that is, differing body mechanics), and the hunchback/sow hung is one of them. The problem is that often, practitioners either only learn one of the "ways" and take that as "the" (the one and only) "way" or they perhaps find that one "way" works much better for them (personally) than other "ways", and come to believe that any other "way" is incorrect.

I've found that each "way" has its own advantages and disadvantages, and that there is a time and place where one gets better results -- for me -- than others.

Hendrick is right and wrong:
Right, that a hunched over position is unhealthy.
Wrong in that it is an incorrect interpetation of the way that structure is done.

Again, I agree. And I'd also like to point out that whether something is particularly "healthy" isn't really an issue in a fighting art. Hitting someone with your fist isn't "healthy" for your hand! The kidney breathing hei gung set was added to YKS WCK to counter-act the "unhealthiness" of the YKS body structures.

osprey3883

05-21-2009, 10:35 AM

I know you are clueless on SLT/SNT and WCK body/qi/mind strucutre.
But full of self-rigtheousness cult BS.

JPinAZ,
Maybe you would better understand Hendrik if you wore a long silk dress while you trained.
I can totally imagine Hendrik standing around in a silk dress doing his "petting the great dane" chi gung. (see the 5 minute mark here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g) for petting the great dane chi gung)
:)
Matt

Hendrik

05-21-2009, 11:00 AM

Again, I agree.

And I'd also like to point out that whether something is particularly "healthy" isn't really an issue in a fighting art. Hitting someone with your fist isn't "healthy" for your hand!

The kidney breathing hei gung set was added to YKS WCK to counter-act the "unhealthiness" of the YKS body structures.

Speaking about fighting again,

The issue is if one's Kidney Qi is weak you will have weak bone issue.

One will end up like this in an extreme case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8akc5yNBksk

you want to train Iron palm? Iron body....... if you dont boost your kidney qi, forget about it. just beating hand to bags or train with medicine ball ? not that simple at all.

and also

If your internal organs is not strong, your heart and or other internal organs cant take the high speed accelerate dynamic which is needed and will damage the heart.... in a long run.

in additional, if you cant handle your brain wave state and keep pumping adrenaline, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epinephrine
your body will broken.

holding breath while tensing also damage heart and can cause hernia...

So, what health? I am not speaking about Health. I am speaking strengthening the full body, mind, internal organs, and bone. and know what todo or what state one's mind/body is in. instead of flying blind.

anyone who really wants to fight and dont know about the conditioning is suicide.

Not to meantion, HOlding the chest this way or that way itself is an issue because it violate the proper function of the body --- from breathing, to blood circulation, to bone structure.....

It is suicide to fantasy fighting without all the conditioning. Bottom line not every one is as strong as Mohamad Ali or Mike Tyson.

those who is in the middle age or even younger age who is having Blood pressure, Blood sugar, chorestor, heart, liver, Kidney condition got to be seriously know what one is doing. for those who have high blood pressure might even have to restrain to do high /above eyes brow level punching exercise....

a plastic sword cant do what a steel sword does. can one make out of a steel sword from a weak body?

Dont be naive.

Finally, In my humble experience, I know some one who use the six healing breath Qigong to help clear out an internal damage which was cause in his Kyokushin Brown black (one level under the black belt) testing sparing 30 years later. Because it is a no pull back, he took a few punch on his chest. It is nothing and feel nothing big deal at that young age, eventhought his late sifu take care of it after the testing sparing with massage and herb for protection purpose, but when he hit 40+ those injury shows up because it was deep enough to not totally clear out at that time and that cause other health issue.

I dont like to talk macho fighting fighting because who can effort to lose? if that person dont have the six healing breath qigong training, is he have to keep the injury until he dies? or sure, one can use western medicine to CONTROL the pain.. but what does that do in a long term?

So, NEVER take things litely. human are frigile. most today have no basic training on these stuffs and that is sad. reality is not fantasy. and people do get damage and died in fighting. will you be able to accept those consequence?

JPinAZ

05-21-2009, 11:24 AM

JPinAZ,
Maybe you would better understand Hendrik if you wore a long silk dress while you trained.
I can totally imagine Hendrik standing around in a silk dress doing his "petting the great dane" chi gung. (see the 5 minute mark here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g) for petting the great dane chi gung)
:)
Matt

Hahaha, too funny.

What's real funny is he continues to ramble on about SNT, some breathing, cults, holding his breath, suicide, chi gung, being 'frigile' and lord knows what else. And then says "Speaking about fighting" - from someone who admits he doesn't even spar.. Can't wait for the next post :)

t_niehoff

05-21-2009, 11:25 AM

anyone who really wants to fight and dont know about the conditioning is suicide.

I agree that conditioning is first and foremost when it comes to fighting since it determines the limit of your performance (you are only as good as your conditioning). However, my view is that if someone is truly interested in getting into fighting condition then they should do what genuine, proven fighters DO (which means train like a modern fighter and perhaps work with a proven fight trainer) -- their methods have proven to produce good results and continue to produce good results. Ali and Tyson developed their abilities through hard, athletic training. Whie I agree that not everyone can -- or even needs to be-- a world class athlete like them, to develop any significant degree of skill or conditioning requires that we follow their example since their approach to training (the athletic, sport model of training) is what has proven to produce all levels of skilled performance and conditioning. That method of training has eclipsed all other, including the TMA method. Times have changed, so has our knowledge and understanding of how to most effectively train and condition our bodies for fighting.

And, let me add, WCK is a fighting method, and fighting is one of the most strenuouos, damaging, and demanding of physical activities. If someone isn't in good medical condition and in decent shape then they shouldn't be practicing WCKin the first place. If you wouldn't box or wrestle, then you shouldn't do WCK.

Hendrik

05-21-2009, 11:38 AM

I agree that conditioning is first and foremost when it comes to fighting since it determines the limit of your performance (you are only as good as your conditioning).

ok

However, my view is that if someone is truly interested in getting into fighting condition then they should do what genuine, proven fighters DO (which means train like a modern fighter and perhaps work with a proven fight trainer) -- their methods have proven to produce good results and continue to produce good results.

sure, and one needs that education and training.

A
li and Tyson developed their abilities through hard, athletic training.

Sure, and also they have to be born pretty strong. not everyone born strong. also food is a major issue. those who keep eating process food only will have issue.

Whie I agree that not everyone can -- or even needs to be-- a world class athlete like them, to develop any significant degree of skill or conditioning requires that

we follow their example since their approach to training (the athletic, sport model of training) is what has proven to produce all levels of skilled performance and conditioning. That method of training has eclipsed all other, including the TMA method.

Times have changed, so has our knowledge and understanding of how to most effectively train and condition our bodies for fighting.

Certainly, this is a big education. from food to......etc.
That is the reason, I am introducing the HRV, EEG, EKG...... testing....

serious stuffs.

If one couldnt even figure out holding a concave chest is against the nature of the body. then we know it is hopeless in fighting. because one doesnt even train properly.

sanjuro_ronin

05-21-2009, 11:40 AM

sanjuro_ronin

05-21-2009, 11:45 AM

Concaving your chest in is something that boxers have always done, heck, a typical boxers stance with the chin tucked, shoulder up and slightly forward gives you that "Slight concave" needed for in close explosive power.
Tyson was an excellent example.
Marciano too.

t_niehoff

05-21-2009, 12:23 PM

Sure, and also they have to be born pretty strong. not everyone born strong. also food is a major issue. those who keep eating process food only will have issue.

You don't KNOW their health when they were born. You're making this up to support your view.

I do agree that nutrition is a major factor in overall health and athletic performance. We know this today from science and athletics.

Certainly, this is a big education. from food to......etc.
That is the reason, I am introducing the HRV, EEG, EKG...... testing....

serious stuffs.

The problem, Hendrik, is that you want your cake and to eat it too. HRV, EEG, EKG, etc. are based on modern knowledge of how the body works and technology. So is blood pressure, nutrition, etc. In fact, EVERYTHING we know about health is based on science-based, evidence-based medicine. The traditional chinese didn't know about any of that stuff -- they didn't even know what the organs were really doing, about the circulation of the blood, about necessary nutrients, etc. They knew jack squat about how the human body really functions. And that explains why the average life span for a chinese before the introduction of western medicine was below 40 (see http://english.people.com.cn/english/200010/20/eng20001020_53183.html ). What we do know today directly refutes and repudiates the traditional chinese model. You can't have it both ways.

If you want to accept that health, nutrition, conditioning, etc. are "serious stuffs" THEN I suggest you get serious, and listen to people who really know about these things.

If one couldnt even figure out holding a concave chest is against the nature of the body. then we know it is hopeless in fighting. because one doesnt even train properly.

Quite frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. This isn't a static posture that you "hold" but a dynamic action of the body, sinking in to load and then thrusting the chest outward to release. It is a body mechanic that is widely used in southern fist.

Yoshiyahu

05-21-2009, 01:25 PM

Hahaha, too funny.

What's real funny is he continues to ramble on about SNT, some breathing, cults, holding his breath, suicide, chi gung, being 'frigile' and lord knows what else. And then says "Speaking about fighting" - from someone who admits he doesn't even spar.. Can't wait for the next post :)

Ha ha...i cant wait either my friend...so true...

JPinAZ,
Maybe you would better understand Hendrik if you wore a long silk dress while you trained.
I can totally imagine Hendrik standing around in a silk dress doing his "petting the great dane" chi gung. (see the 5 minute mark here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g) for petting the great dane chi gung)
:)
Matt

Hendrik Wishes to be the Quasi Sage of the Threads

I agree that conditioning is first and foremost when it comes to fighting since it determines the limit of your performance (you are only as good as your conditioning). However, my view is that if someone is truly interested in getting into fighting condition then they should do what genuine, proven fighters DO (which means train like a modern fighter and perhaps work with a proven fight trainer) -- their methods have proven to produce good results and continue to produce good results. Ali and Tyson developed their abilities through hard, athletic training. Whie I agree that not everyone can -- or even needs to be-- a world class athlete like them, to develop any significant degree of skill or conditioning requires that we follow their example since their approach to training (the athletic, sport model of training) is what has proven to produce all levels of skilled performance and conditioning. That method of training has eclipsed all other, including the TMA method. Times have changed, so has our knowledge and understanding of how to most effectively train and condition our bodies for fighting.

And, let me add, WCK is a fighting method, and fighting is one of the most strenuouos, damaging, and demanding of physical activities. If someone isn't in good medical condition and in decent shape then they shouldn't be practicing WCKin the first place. If you wouldn't box or wrestle, then you shouldn't do WCK.

Terrence...Wow...Your post have been getting better an better...wounderful...Wow what did you do reinevent your self?

Concaving your chest in is something that boxers have always done, heck, a typical boxers stance with the chin tucked, shoulder up and slightly forward gives you that "Slight concave" needed for in close explosive power.
Tyson was an excellent example.
Marciano too.

Thankyou very much very good Post...wow!

Hendrik

05-21-2009, 01:28 PM

You don't KNOW their health when they were born. You're making this up to support your view.

I dont have to make it up.

I was born weaker then them and lots of my Kyokushin class mate.

I have to live a different way to compensate for what I inherit and finally get better then some of them.

Thus, I know because I am there in the born weaker group.

I do agree that nutrition is a major factor in overall health and athletic performance. We know this today from science and athletics.

Today or yesterday, it doesnt matter for me. Whatever it works.
and it is not true that science of today is always right.

Process modern food cause problem and raise in high blood pressure/diabetic/ heart problem. and how long does the modern man knows it is a problem and admit?

See, putting vitamine C into a drink is not nature vitamine C. the body doesnt take that similarly.

Thus, it is not today or yesterday but what is working.

another example, taking calcium pill alone as advertisment to strengthen bone does that really help? go find out?

The problem, Hendrik, is that you want your cake and to eat it too.

That is not a problem for some, it is based on the ability of non attachment cultivation.

the question is do you have that enter into Silence training or not. and do you know the process?

HRV, EEG, EKG, etc. are based on modern knowledge of how the body works and technology. So is blood pressure, nutrition, etc.

I use any type of modern machine.

However, a machine is a machine. it cant run my life for me or doing my practice for me. and it is the ancient technics which lead me into different brain wave state.

Thus, it is good to have the modern technology which verify the ancient technics and my own training.

Now, saying that, since you try to make your case, here. Have you ever ever ever using the HRV, EEG.... machine to know your own training state ? if you have not then how scientific are you in your training? compare with my ancient technics training which verify by the modern machine?

In fact, EVERYTHING we know about health is based on science-based, evidence-based medicine.

Nothing wrong with that believe.

The traditional chinese didn't know about any of that stuff -- they didn't even know what the organs were really doing, about the circulation of the blood, about necessary nutrients, etc.

if I were you, I would not make such in professional and in experience statement.

They knew jack squat about how the human body really functions.

That you need to take to Dr. Robert Chu. hahaha.

And that explains why the average life span for a chinese before the introduction of western medicine was below 40 (see http://english.people.com.cn/english/200010/20/eng20001020_53183.html ). What we do know today directly refutes and repudiates the traditional chinese model. You can't have it both ways.

is it western medicine or is it because western medicine has a good standard education which is easier to reproduce and available to general public in China?

On another issue, Take SARS, check for yourself which is more effective? Western medicine or Chinese herb. Go a head.

See, you like to live an extreme life. that is great but that is not my path. hahaha

If you want to accept that health, nutrition, conditioning, etc. are "serious stuffs" THEN I suggest you get serious, and listen to people who really know about these things.

Isnt it that is the reason I have more then a dozen of teachers and living within it?

Quite frankly, you don't know what you are talking about.

Sure, that is according to you.

This isn't a static posture that you "hold" but a dynamic action of the body, sinking in to load and then thrusting the chest outward to release. It is a body mechanic that is widely used in southern fist.

You are actually contradict yourself. in one way you says dynamic action of the body. and then you trusting the chest outward to release......

Go throught those body nature study in Standford University. find out for yourself how is breathing, Spine, and body structure operate. is it operate as you describe ? "you trusting the chest outward to release"

BTW. what was found in the Standford University study is EXACTLY what the ancient Chinese has been described on open up the Ren and Du medirians.

hahaha,

you call yourself scientific....etc and totally against the chinese, saying that
"They knew jack squat about how the human body really functions."

and, you accuse me on "Quite frankly, you don't know what you are talking about."

still you believe in

This isn't a static posture that you "hold" but a dynamic action of the body, sinking in to load and then thrusting the chest outward to release. It is a body mechanic that is widely used in southern fist.

on the other hand,

I have done the Standard university study and Ren Du medirians opening/ fajin verification.

But you have never gone that far as me to verify both the ancient and the modern, so who is more scientific? hahaha

Terence, you think scientific but I live in it. that is the different.

Golden Arms

05-21-2009, 02:09 PM

Golden Arms

05-21-2009, 02:12 PM

Hendik,

If the Ren and Du were not open, the person would likely be dead or suffering greatly. Something I hear tossed around a lot, but we may need to be more careful in the way we word things if we wish to express things accurately.

They could become "more open" for example, or offer less resistance, or one could become more aware of them and how they are functioning through sharpened perception and concentration.

Thoughts?

punchdrunk

05-21-2009, 02:25 PM

an important part of this discussion could also be that a concave vs straight torso should not be viewed as static positions. It is the bending and straightening of the torso that can add power. Also how things are done in SNT are definately not how they are done in application.
One way to view the body motion is as body "english" or "cheating" in weight lifting, it allows the use of extra momentum from the body to transfer extra force. I always felt this was a big part of the Bui Gee form, but that can change from different lineages. It is also something I admired about Weng Chun and their Sam Bai Fut, they seem to grasp it better than most schools that move roboticly and seem unable or willing to bend at all!
As for chakras and chi etc. etc. if it is unhealthy to hunch it is even more unhealthy to be a victim of assault, and your back and midsection hold some of the strongest muscles in the body so if your healthy a little bending won't do any harm.

anerlich

05-21-2009, 02:47 PM

To be real polite, you dont know SLT/SNT or WCK, so, what you offer is actually poison to the WCners.

To be real polite, it's still a lot better than the toxic, pompous drivel you continue to post at length, Hendrik.

Hendrik

05-21-2009, 02:56 PM

punchdrunk

05-21-2009, 03:08 PM

As soon as we have absolutes we have limits, better to hear lots of different ideas than only one groups.

You know for the ripping Yoshi sometimes gets, he still comes up with interesting views and thread topics. I've enjoyed this one a lot.

Hendrik

05-21-2009, 03:18 PM

If the Ren and Du were not open, the person would likely be dead or suffering greatly.

Something I hear tossed around a lot, but we may need to be more careful in the way we word things if we wish to express things accurately.

They could become "more open" for example, or offer less resistance, or one could become more aware of them and how they are functioning through sharpened perception and concentration.

Thoughts?

You raise a very good question.

What you post is reasonable in Thoughts.

However, in the Qi practice, traditionally,

Opening doesnt mean it is not open in the begining. see, IMHO, opening doesnt mean Unclog .

The meaning of opening is Opening/passing the Channel (ren/du..ect) at will or by intentional set up.

IE: accumulate the Zhen Qi in the Dan Dien and then let it go by itself opening/passing the specific channel. leading the Zhen Qi to open/passing the specific channel by will it to do so.

and, in reality,

there are indeed time, that the Ren or Du is not passing or it is block and the Zhen Qi is not strong enough to open/passing a certain section of the channel at will.

One then needs to either accumulate the Zhen Qi up to a higher energy level to open/pass that section or to use massage...etc to passing/open.

Thus, I rather follow the Traditional conventional definition because it is not a thought but practice. and the more we define things our way the problematic it will become.

IE: under at will and focus Zhen Qi strenght, the Zhen Qi stop at a certain point of the Ren or Du and travel no further. Does that mean the Ren or Du is always open?

and in this case, what is the chance the Ren and Du is open under the condition of " not at will and not focus Zhen Qi strength ?"

we can get into argument and lots of speculation on how open is open or not open.....etc. and everyone can be right or wrong....etc

I personally taking the path of , it is more important to focus on have one done it? and can the process carry one safely to do it? thus, I choose the conventional Traditional terminology.

Just some thoughts.

t_niehoff

05-21-2009, 03:39 PM

We would all learn a lot more if we were mindful of our views being our view from where we are on our path "as of now". It is possible for more than one person to be right, even if they have different views. The reason and ways we practice our art change over our lifetime.

While I can accept that different people have differing perspectives, I don't buy into the truth-is-relative drivel.

The lack of that knowledge in those posting here seems to illustrate the lack of understanding and lack of ethics in some. The two may be related in some cases.

Whenever I hear people talk about "knowledge" and "lackof understanding" it makes my @ss twitch.

Stillness training has its place, or can be made the top priority. Fighting training has its place, or can be made the top priority. Training for health and to improve the attributes of the body has its place and can be made the top priority. These are not exclusive to themselves, but can bleed into each other as well.

People can take a martial art and make anything of it -- they can do it as qi gong, for example. But, quite frankly, it is in that case no longer a martial art IMO. When you take out the fighting it stops being a martial art and becomes something else. If people want to practice something else that's fine and dandy with me, just that it seems rather silly to take one thing (a fighting method) and turn it into something else when you could just go off and do that something else.

Another aspect is that all these various aspects you mention often are at odds with each other (what is most healthful often is not the most useful or effective way to fight).

As long as our cup is full, we will have no room for more.

The whole 'empty cup' metaphor is not only tired and trite, but also nonsense. I suppose people like using those sorts of things as they think it makes them sound "profound". Ah, ancient chinese wisdom!

t_niehoff

05-21-2009, 03:44 PM

See, you like to live an extreme life. that is great but that is not my path. hahaha

Terence, you think scientific but I live in it. that is the different.

No, Hendrik, you don't think or live "scientific". You like to think that you do. Just like the clowns that believe their WCK is "scientific". They tell themselves this to make themselves feel better and to give "support" to their pseudo-scientific views.

Hendrik

05-21-2009, 04:03 PM

As soon as we have absolutes we have limits, better to hear lots of different ideas than only one groups.

Sure, if you dont accept you have only two legs can you have four?

and if you accept you have only two legs does it means limitation?

one can discuss how legs can be used in a different way. But the minute some starts to discuss human can using four legs or six legs. That is totally fantasy.

BTW, as I mention before, Breathing, Diaphram, spine, and stomach muscle have their own nature way of moving and rythm. The ancient knows about it the modern such as Standford University have research into it. Those are solid stuffs why stuck at everyone's 5 cents?

Hendrik

05-21-2009, 04:10 PM

No, Hendrik, you don't think or live "scientific". You like to think that you do. Just like the clowns that believe their WCK is "scientific". They tell themselves this to make themselves feel better and to give "support" to their pseudo-scientific views.

Terence,

have you compare and verify what you said

This isn't a static posture that you "hold" but a dynamic action of the body, sinking in to load and then thrusting the chest outward to release. It is a body mechanic that is widely used in southern fist.

with the Standford university breathing/Spine motion study and see for yourself how make sense is
thrusting the chest outward to release.

I have done mine Let me know when you do yours, then you can talk scientific and also dont forget I give you the direction tip " Standford university" even you are much much much more scientific then me.

Yoshiyahu

05-21-2009, 06:31 PM

Hendrik said:

Sure, if you dont accept you have only two legs can you have four?

Well Hendrik you may say we only have two eyes...But I have three. An when i close my eyes in silence I can see through my third eye. Also as for humans having two legs...Well I have Three legs actually. Its just the two on sides are a little longer...Ha ha...

Golden Arms:

As long as our cup is full, we will have no room for more.

Why can't one just buy a second cup and pour new liquid into the second cup...Do we have to only have one cup. Why empty out one cup to pour new information in. If you pour out some of the water you loose what you previously learn to learn something new.

Great Post anerlich

punchdrunk said:

You know for the ripping Yoshi sometimes gets, he still comes up with interesting views and thread topics. I've enjoyed this one a lot.

Thank you punchdrunk!

T-Niehoff said:

Whenever I hear people talk about "knowledge" and "lackof understanding" it makes my @ss twitch.People can take a martial art and make anything of it -- they can do it as qi gong, for example. But, quite frankly, it is in that case no longer a martial art IMO. When you take out the fighting it stops being a martial art and becomes something else. If people want to practice something else that's fine and dandy with me, just that it seems rather silly to take one thing (a fighting method) and turn it into something else when you could just go off and do that something else.

I totally agree!

Great Points made by Terrence Niehoff

The whole 'empty cup' metaphor is not only tired and trite, but also nonsense. I suppose people like using those sorts of things as they think it makes them sound "profound". Ah, ancient chinese wisdom!

Quite frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. This isn't a static posture that you "hold" but a dynamic action of the body, sinking in to load and then thrusting the chest outward to release. It is a body mechanic that is widely used in southern fist.

I agree that conditioning is first and foremost when it comes to fighting since it determines the limit of your performance (you are only as good as your conditioning).

anerlich

05-21-2009, 07:51 PM

Pacman

05-21-2009, 08:38 PM

Why jump to conclusions? What makes you think that you are fully extended? You must be missing something...

WCK Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma has 3 positions:

1) Neutral
2) Forward
3) Defensive

When you are in Neutral, you can still move to Forward....

i read that you studied Sum Nung Wing Chun at one point so just imagine doing the arrow step punch, starting with a body that is completely straight.

can you not see how power and mobility moving forwardwould be reduced if you did not adopt a hunched posture, with hips forward and weight on the balls of your feet?

imagine doing an arrow step punch with a straight back, straight posture, shoulders back, flat footed.

an easier example.

look at other sports where you are required to shoot forward with speed.

wrestling
football
sprinters

whether looking at a collegiate wrestler, football lineman, or sprinter all adopt a posture where their weight is forward

TenTigers

05-22-2009, 12:18 AM

Pacman

05-22-2009, 01:56 AM

like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVhRMzywe6Y

t_niehoff

05-22-2009, 06:14 AM

Terence,

have you compare and verify what you said

with the Standford university breathing/Spine motion study and see for yourself how make sense is

No, I don't need to compare it to any "study" -- I'm talking about a certain dynamic body mechanic (that does a particular thing) and the "Stanford study" has nothing to do with that.

That body mechanic is a fact. It is a part of most sourthern fist. Lots of body mechanics aren't particularly "healthful" -- spend some time doing BJJ, getting folded in half while some guy puts all his bodyweight on you or twisted like a pretzel and you'll appreciate that fact.

I have done mine Let me know when you do yours, then you can talk scientific and also dont forget I give you the direction tip " Standford university" even you are much much much more scientific then me.

Your perespective is entirely theoretical. It is theoretical because you are not fighting with your "ideas". Lots of things sound great on paper. But they don't work under fighting conditions (going at 100%, having an opponent resist at 100%, etc.). This is what all theoretical nonfighters don't seem to grasp. Being able to do something while NOT under fighting conditions doesn't in any way mean that it will work or work that way under fighting conditions. Theorizing about how to fight, what works in a fight, etc. without fighting -- and by "fighting" I don't mean lightly sparring or doing chi sao, I mean going all-out, 100%, particularly against competent fighters -- is FANTASY. It's fantasy because itall takes place in your head, not in the fight.

People can come up with all kinds of theories, all kinds of explanations, all kinds of fantasy. They can couch it in pseudo-scientific terms. They can pick "studies" out their @ss, but it is all meaningless.

Hendrik

05-22-2009, 06:43 AM

Hendrick-the reason I mentioned moderation is that by your posts, although you seem to understand body structure in your WCK,

you seem to not have any actual experience with what you refer to as hunchbacked, sacrum tucked etc,position.

That is your assumption.

Moderation is to explain that the actual position is NOT hunched, and concave, but only in comparison to shoulders back, chest out, etc. You need to Inot only see things in black or white, but appreciate the subtle nuances of differing shades of grey.

Your moderation as what you describe above is a totally confusion.

That is not Zen, not middle path, not Buddhist, but the thousand years of sickness in Chinese called Mo Ning Liang Ke or " stay in the gray so that it can be anything"

That is exactly the deadly Chinese bad habit of "Could be anything" but saying nothing. Those are not middle path. Those are sickness. we learn that in the west thinking it is a middle path or Zen it is a sickness of death.

For example, moon is circular in shape. one cant say moon is a Moderation of Square and Triangle shape.

or Moon is a moderation of Triangle shape....

those who has seen Moon know clearly it is Circular in Shape.
will not make a statement on moderation of Triangle , hexagon, and Square.

The body is in constant movement, and moves and undulates between opening and closing. The postures you seem to object to are in my experience, exagerrations, and not the true postures.

you are right, and everyone is right to say the body is in constant movement.

But saying so, since it is a constant movement, then it has its rhythm. like a moon spining in a certain track / orbit, that is flow.

and

Moderation/ middle path is refer to follow this rhythm and orbit without cause it to breakdown.

So the question is what is that rhythm and orbit? and what is the speed of the rhythm /orbit.

The orbit of the Moon around the Earth is completed in approximately 27.3 days. The Earth and Moon orbit about their common center of mass, which lies about 4,700 kilometres from Earth's center (about three quarters of the Earth's radius).

It cant be the orbit of Moon is a MOderation of around the Earth and Sun. It is a MOderation of approximately may be two months or hey something it stop for a day or two.

So, what this rhythm/ orbit got to do with the moderation of holding in hunchbacked, sacrum tucked etc.

or even Terence,

This isn't a static posture that you "hold" but a dynamic action of the body, sinking in to load and then thrusting the chest outward to release. It is a body mechanic that is widely used in southern fist.

Does these follow the nature rhythm and orbit? That is what I challenge Mr. T to really research with SCIENTIFIC based instead of using SCIENTIFIC as a slogan to anti-Chinese but he himself is totally non SCIENTIFIC.

Once one doesnt follow the rhythm one is breaking the rhythm. So how can it be
The body is in constant movement, and moves and undulates between opening and closing.

Then again, your WCK is what you have been taught by your teachers, and my SPM and Hung Kuen is what I've been taught by my teachers.

We can see that not all WCK people subscribe to your interpetations, and not all SPM and Hung Kuen people agree with my interpetations as well. Gwok Si, Gwok Faht.

I never by those Gwok Si, Gwok Faht or Every sifu has his own method Chinese face giving or face defensing words.

0, There is nothing to do with Interpetations here.

1, WCK is WCK. WCK cant be the WCK my teachers taught me. if the Stuff my teacher Taught me is his stuffs then that is not WCK but his stuff.

2, WCK is not SPM is not HUng Kuen. We are talking WCK here not SPM or Hung Kuen.

and as an example, a Tank's Chain wheel is not going to apply to a Porches. and again, a Porches wheel cannot be a MODERATION of Chain wheel and round tireWheel.

3, Not to mention, there are one extremely important question needs to be ask and answer. That is what is the reason there are different Wheels exist and what type of Wheels fit in what type of vehicle. That, dont give me that Gwok Si, Gwok Faht.

asking people to replace a porsche Wheel with a MODERATE tank chain wheel seems to saying alots but it is totally absurd.

To beat the cup analogy to death...there is not only the full cup, and the empty cup, but there is also the dirty cup. That in which the tea you taste, is filtered and flavored by your own previous experiences and preconcieved notions, and opinions.

Again, until you understand ZEn is very specific dont use that cup analogy.

In this case, I purposely put a strong objection here because it got everything to do with

replace a porsche Wheel with a MODERATE tank chain wheel seems to saying alots but it is totally absurd.

That is nothing todo with my experience with porsche or Tank or tea or cup or my own previous experience.

But, what is a porsche? what is a Tank? what is the Wheel and the type of the Wheel for? What is the rythm/frequency of these different type of the Wheels?

See, until one knows what is what, a porsche or a Tank. the training goes NO WHERE.

This is one of the Biggest Problem in TCMA and also those like Terence claim to be extreme SCIENTIFIC but clueless on what is going on but discriminate via racism.

You WCner wants to do your SLT/SNT or....etc with the MOderation or hund back..... as the above posts? make my day. Free will world.

Hendrik

05-22-2009, 06:56 AM

Your perespective is entirely theoretical. It is theoretical because you are not fighting with your "ideas". Lots of things sound great on paper. But they don't work under fighting conditions (going at 100%, having an opponent resist at 100%, etc.). This is what all theoretical nonfighters don't seem to grasp. Being able to do something while NOT under fighting conditions doesn't in any way mean that it will work or work that way under fighting conditions. Theorizing about how to fight, what works in a fight, etc. without fighting -- and by "fighting" I don't mean lightly sparring or doing chi sao, I mean going all-out, 100%, particularly against competent fighters -- is FANTASY. It's fantasy because itall takes place in your head, not in the fight.

People can come up with all kinds of theories, all kinds of explanations, all kinds of fantasy. They can couch it in pseudo-scientific terms. They can pick "studies" out their @ss, but it is all meaningless.

You know, dont give me all these "entirely theoretical." bull$#hit.
after you use the term SCIENTIFIC as a convernient Vechicle to discriminate.

YOu want SCIENTIFIC? we have STANDFORD UNIV's research, we can use 3 D mechanical Dynamic to describe motion and forces. We know The ancient Chinese KNOWs what the heck they are talking about and the process which is reproduce and repeatable effectively with the help of Today's modern SCIENTIFIC methods.

So, all words and all the fantasy fighting. Where is the Beef Terence? if you cant even get the Basic SCIENTIFIC forget about fighting. You cant even get the SCIENTIFIC facts of how to make a bullets and gun, how the heck you could use them in the war?

If my memory is correct, in Robert's article there is what Hawkin said about Bruce Lee, " it is Bruce own limitation " that applied to you solidly, if it your own problem and illusion and limitation.

Nothing to do with TCMA or me, For you never know what is SCIENTIFIC or FIghting.

if it happen that You was beaten by BJJ similar to those in SEA beaten by MT's and once forever scare, fear, in trauma and keep thinking there is no WAy out but BJJ or MT is the only way, and you are trying to be the SAVIOR to change the world because of your expereince.

This is clear when you can accept Gracie's Subsconcious Learning in the previous post . So, what Scientific? is that subsconcious learning at all?

I am sorry for your got beaten and as all human none of us is perfect and no one always win, also, It is ok for you to jump boat and have a new religion it is a free will world. but it got nothing to do with others but your own limitation project outward to others.

You can keep saying and posting anything you like. But, that is your limitation and fantasy. that is your problem. and you are not the savior because you cant even describe the basic human nature Spine/breathing/ diagphram movement as what the Standford University and the ancient TCMA experts describe and follow.

TenTigers

05-22-2009, 06:57 AM

"Again, until you understand ZEn is very specific dont use that cup analogy."

one does not need to understand Zen.
one only needs to understand cups! :p

(there is also the overturned cup.....)

Hendrik

05-22-2009, 07:05 AM

"Again, until you understand ZEn is very specific dont use that cup analogy."

one does not need to understand Zen.
one only needs to understand cups! :p

(there is also the overturned cup.....)

until you know clearly what is a Porsche and Tank. doesnt matter about the cup.

TenTigers

05-22-2009, 07:08 AM

and again, your analogy between the Porche and the Tank is speaking one extreme or the other. Again, Black and White.
If your elbow position is inward, and your sacrum, and chin is tucked, there will be some rounding of the back-in comparrison to not doing this. The key to this conversation is, to what degree?
Again, it is not hunched. Hunched is an over-exagerration, and in most cases, incorrect.

until you know clearly about what is Hunched and not hunched. Doesn't matter about the Tank.

t_niehoff

05-22-2009, 07:27 AM

You know, dont give me all these "entirely theoretical." bull$#hit.
after you use the term SCIENTIFIC as a convernient Vechicle to discriminate.

YOu want SCIENTIFIC? we have STANDFORD UNIV's research, we can use 3 D mechanical Dynamic to describe motion and forces. We know The ancient Chinese KNOWs what the heck they are talking about and the process which is reproduce and repeatable effectively with the help of Today's modern SCIENTIFIC methods.

If these things work as you say, then someone should be able to make them work in fighting, right? Why can't we see anyone do that then? You can TALK all you want about how "the ancient chinese knew" or about your misinterpretaion of studies, but the point is that you can't show it in fighting. Why? Because it doesn't work that way.

So, all words and all the fantasy fighting. Where is the Beef Terence? if you cant even get the Basic SCIENTIFIC forget about fighting. You cant even get the SCIENTIFIC facts of how to make a bullets and gun, how the heck you could use them in the war?

Science is evidence-based. Evidence. The evidence of what works in fighting is THE FIGHT. You want to talk about everything EXCEPT it working in fighting. If you can't show it working in fighting, then it is fantasy.

If my memory is correct, in Robert's article there is what Hawkin said about Bruce Lee, " it is Bruce own limitation " that applied to you solidly, if it your own problem and illusion and limitation.

I don't care what Hawkins or Robert write -- I'm saying that there is theory of what works in fighting and there is fact of what works in fighting. We can only know for a fact what works in fighitng by seeing it work in fighting -- not by imagining or fantasizing that it will work in fighting. My limitation is that I don't accept theory or speculation.

Nothing to do with TCMA or me, For you never know what is SCIENTIFIC or FIghting.

You still don't get it. It is one thing to talk about what you or others are actually doing something in fighting and quite another to talk about how you believe from a theoretical POV things should work. I don't care about the latter.

You was beaten by BJJ similar to those in SEA beaten by MT's and once forever scare, fear, in trauma and keep thinking there is no WAy out.

It's not a matter of fear or trauma, it is a matter of seeing things as they really are. You can't do that unless you are doing them -- in fighting. How else can you know how things are in fighting except by fighting? You can't appreciate or "understand" fighting except by doing it.

This is clear when you can accept Gracie's Subsconcious Learning in the previous post . It is ok for you to jump boat and have religion it is a free will world. but it got nothing to do with others but your own limitation project outward to others.

This is the sort fo thing that simply amazes me. That statement you refer to was made by Helio. Helio was a proven world-class fighter. Not only that, but he trained and produced many other proven world-class fighters. Now, instead of pausing and considering that perhaps he had some idea of what he was talking about (considering he reached levels you and no other TCMAist ever have), you dismiss him because his views do not match your theoretical nonfighter views! Amazing. Simply amazing.

You can keep saying and posting anything you like. But, that is your limitation and fantasy.

Yes, that's why the TCMAs continue to produce proven quality fighters that dominate. ;)

Vajramusti

05-22-2009, 08:36 AM

I don't know since I don't play baseball.

BTW- I dont stand hunchbacked and I also dont make sweeping generalizations about TCMA.
Nor about boxing or grappling. There is the good. the bad and the ugly in most endeavors and no relativism there either. Prefer wing chun.

A problem in net communication- too many complex things thrown in -in quick sound bites...into an
uneven swirling stew: "fighting", MT, BJJ, checking brain waves with a machine, concave, convex, neither, theoretical, non theoretical-throw in doses of sarcasm and one up m/w ships-

will wc survive the internet forums? Don't know! Yes here and there- no: elsewhere probably!

Pity the newbie in all this.

joy chaudhuri

sanjuro_ronin

05-22-2009, 08:53 AM

t_niehoff

05-22-2009, 09:08 AM

You know...you don't see these "issues" in other fighting systems like Boxing, MT, wrestling and such...

That's exactly right -- and that's my point: we don't see these issues in boxing, MT, BJJ, MMA, etc. because in those arts theory isn't an issue. They're fighting, so they can point to their fighting as evidence. And their fighting informs everything else they do (for example, how they train -- they know what they will actually be doing in fighting since they are fighting, so they know the results of their training and can modify it). Instructors in those arts don't teach things they believe in theory should work -- they teach things that actually do work, and they know they work since they are actually doing them in fighting.

CFT

05-22-2009, 09:41 AM

You know...you don't see these "issues" in other fighting systems like Boxing, MT, wrestling and such...Those activities don't have the added cultural baggage of "health benefits" that TCMA has.

Vajramusti

05-22-2009, 09:44 AM

t_niehoff

05-22-2009, 09:48 AM

Those activities don't have the added cultural baggage of "health benefits" that TCMA has.

Very true. The cultural baggage (health benefits, chinese cosmology, philosophy/religion, etc.) is a major factor.

HumbleWCGuy

05-22-2009, 10:14 AM

My WC style is very different from any that I have seen as all the forms except SLT are very different. We don't use much of the classical stuff. My style just turns the hips to generate power.

I have seen classical guys like Emin Boztepe use the curl as he says that it generates power. Also, as a general rule in fighting, you don't want to be tilted back with an erect posture as it will limit your ability to simply move the head back to avoid strikes. The chest curl allows you to obtain the proper classical stance while keeping the head in a mobile position.

Hendrik

05-22-2009, 10:14 AM

If these things work as you say, then someone should be able to make them work in fighting, right? Why can't we see anyone do that then? You can TALK all you want about how "the ancient chinese knew" or about your misinterpretaion of studies, but the point is that you can't show it in fighting. Why? Because it doesn't work that way.

Science is evidence-based. Evidence. The evidence of what works in fighting is THE FIGHT. You want to talk about everything EXCEPT it working in fighting. If you can't show it working in fighting, then it is fantasy.

I don't care what Hawkins or Robert write -- I'm saying that there is theory of what works in fighting and there is fact of what works in fighting. We can only know for a fact what works in fighitng by seeing it work in fighting -- not by imagining or fantasizing that it will work in fighting. My limitation is that I don't accept theory or speculation.

You still don't get it. It is one thing to talk about what you or others are actually doing something in fighting and quite another to talk about how you believe from a theoretical POV things should work. I don't care about the latter.

It's not a matter of fear or trauma, it is a matter of seeing things as they really are. You can't do that unless you are doing them -- in fighting. How else can you know how things are in fighting except by fighting? You can't appreciate or "understand" fighting except by doing it.

This is the sort fo thing that simply amazes me. That statement you refer to was made by Helio. Helio was a proven world-class fighter. Not only that, but he trained and produced many other proven world-class fighters. Now, instead of pausing and considering that perhaps he had some idea of what he was talking about (considering he reached levels you and no other TCMAist ever have), you dismiss him because his views do not match your theoretical nonfighter views! Amazing. Simply amazing.

Yes, that's why the TCMAs continue to produce proven quality fighters that dominate. ;)

Sure Helio is a world class fighter . That is him not you. get it?

you are the one keep asking for Scientific. Now why do you accept Helio without any SCIENTIFIC requirement as you always do?

Not to mention, there are lots of World class fighters. I have not dismissed anyone but have one and only one standard and that is what you are incapable.

you are just practicing favoritism and doesnt walk your Talk on Scientific.

have you ever ever in a tournoment which needs to sign accident death waver?
every competitors has a breaking power of atleast 3stag tires, no pull back and no guard?

if yes name one with reference.

how many hours you do

1, basic conditioning training including bag work a week?
2, how many hours full contact no guard sparring?
3, how many hours strategical sparring?
4, How much is your heart rate rise and drop?
5, How fast can you enter Alpha mind state under Pressure condition?

What is your track record?

You want scientific and Figthing Training?

SCIENTIFIC we go to university studies like STandford. with all kind of instrument such as Heart Rate, HRV, EEG.... to monitor the training condition. and anylize the hell out of the penetrating power via 3 D mechanical system dynamic simulation and analysis.

FIGTHING Training is nothing more then conditioning to sharpen the endurance/ weapon/ execution, drilling on different critical strategy with full contact sparring.
Kyokushin , MT , and Some TCMA have done it before even you learn MARTIAL ART.

Have you done both?

t_niehoff

05-22-2009, 10:14 AM

In boxing and wrestling- while they dont get bogged down in forum squabbles---each good trainer/coach has their unique POV's- you can call them "theories"- there is usually one winner or loser ina match- but the POVs tend to persist---
Cus D'Amatos' peek aboo, Sewards positioning of Hearn's hands, Dundee's approach, Gainsford,
Beristain, Roach, all have or have had different views-but they all recognized that training, preparation, fight specific strategies, morale, spirit, the fighter's ability to think on their feet and be innovative all play roles.

Joy, you're missing the point. These coaches may have had different approaches to training, etc. but they weren't theoretical -- they were regularly used and tested in fighting. The fighting/sparring is the evidence they used to refine their approaches, in terms of strategy, tactics, training, etc.

BJJ instructors have different apporaches, etc. too, But -- and here's the salient point: They're doing them in fighting. That's how they, and we, know that what they are teaching/saying/etc. is valid.

But there appears to be fundamental differences in objectives- sport versus self defense,
athleticism in the peak years as opposed to long run development and self defense and self preservation-putting them all in the same analytical basket is confusing at the least, irrelevant at the most. Sport is under controlled conditions. A real fight can involve multiple variables. some unpredictable.

Fighting and "self-defense" are two different things. Someone with good self-defensive skills may never need to fight. But fighting can be a part of self-defense, that last option.

Yes, sport fighting has "rules" for the safety of the competitors. But it is those "rules" that permit people to really perform (and practice) their fighting abilities with full-power, full-intensity, etc. By really doing those things under fighting conditions, people develop high level of skills. This is sport-specific tranining. You learn to box by actually boxing.

The other side of the coin are the so-called "deadly attacks" or "foul tactics" -- those things we can never really practice under fighitng conditions. And since we can't practice them realistically, we can't develop them to any significant level. Do you want to depend on things you've never really trained in a self-defense situation? Or, would you rather rely on those things you know work from experience under fighting conditions and that you've trained under fighting conditions? Moreover, many of those "foul tactics" depend on being able to do basic non-foul things very, very well (for example, biting in groundfighitng is certainly a possiblity, but the problem is the better grappler with control -- which comes from sport -- is who will have the real opportunity to bite, not the guy with no grappling skill).

As far as age goes, as one of my friends once told me about basketball: the game doesn't change because we get older. If you want to play basketball well, you need to do certain things regardless of your age. If you can't do those things, then you can't play basketball. The only way to develop and retain the skill to deal with genuine punches and kicks is by hard sparring -- to really practice dealing with them. If you can't - or won't - do that, regardless of the reason, then you just won't develop or retain that ability.

Hendrik

05-22-2009, 11:17 AM

Those activities don't have the added cultural baggage of "health benefits" that TCMA has.

health benefits tie into the conditioning, and conditioning directly influence figthing capability, why is it a cultural baggage?

Is an ibuki breathing a cultural baggage of Kyokushin ?

IMHO, the baggage of TCMA is

1, too many self proclaim expert who havent learn the basic.

and

2, there are people who learn a little, go have a match with say BJJ, lost , and then starts to makes negative comment without realized they have not master the art.

Hendrik

05-22-2009, 11:33 AM

your analogy between the Porche and the Tank is speaking one extreme or the other. Again, Black and White.

There is a different between WCK and other art. that has nothing todo with extreme, but knowing the exact characteristics . get that?

How wise is on to go to Hung Gar Forum and starts commenting how to do Iron Wire via BJJ view? and addressing MOderation and what is moderation?

If your elbow position is inward, and your sacrum, and chin is tucked, there will be some rounding of the back-in comparrison to not doing this. The key to this conversation is, to what degree?

As I keep mentioning, your mind keep thinking STATIC and then you go around and says
The body is in constant movement, and moves and undulates between opening and closing. which is totally contradicted each others.

you post the above and ask the question
to what degree
is the sign of you dont see what is going on with SLT/SNT but keep speculating out of touch of reality.

you have no awareness training thus you dont know what you dont know.

I give you all a hint.
SLT/SNT/WCK's goal is nothing STOP, it is always flow with the rhythm of the nature with ease. Thus, it said, comes accept....... try to hold something or force something is all broken the rhythm of the nature...

Thus, it is not Iron wire....etc.

Thus, it needs to follow the nature.....

until you know clearly about what is Hunched and not hunched. .

So what is hunched and not hunched? by what standard is hunched? what standard is not hunched...... How do you determine?

Doesn't matter about the Tank

sure, stay blind and keep thinking iron wire is SLT. Hung gar is WCK.

sanjuro_ronin

05-22-2009, 12:21 PM

health benefits tie into the conditioning, and conditioning directly influence figthing capability, why is it a cultural baggage?

I don't think he meant that stuff, conditioning is not a cultural thing, though what you wear may be ;)

Is an ibuki breathing a cultural baggage of Kyokushin ?

If it was done in a cerimonial way with no martial application, yes.

IMHO, the baggage of TCMA is

1, too many self proclaim expert who havent learn the basic.

and

2, there are people who learn a little, go have a match with say BJJ, lost , and then starts to makes negative comment without realized they have not master the art.

No argument there, add to that those that have NEVER fought anyone with fighting ability spewing their assorted garbage too, can't forget them, can we?

Hendrik

05-22-2009, 12:30 PM

If it was done in a cerimonial way with no martial application, yes.

ibuki in a cerimonial way is no longer Ibuki but show biz.

same with SLT/SNT, becomes a show biz.

add to that those that have NEVER fought anyone with fighting ability spewing their assorted garbage too, can't forget them, can we?

Certainly.

sanjuro_ronin

05-22-2009, 12:32 PM

ibuki in a cerimonial way is no longer Ibuki but show biz.

same with SLT/SNT, becomes a show biz.

Certainly.

Agreed my friend, totally agreed.

Hendrik

05-22-2009, 12:36 PM

Agreed my friend, totally agreed.

It is nuts to have no experience in real time execution and cannot discriminate what is real and fantasy.

It is also nuts to think only one know what is it and looking down on others.

TenTigers

05-22-2009, 12:52 PM

Hendrick, you speak volumes. But, You say very little. Then you contradict yourself, then you take my POV and say it back to me as if you had thought it all along. Very funny. You do not know my experience. (you do not know how much WCK I may have studied, and under whom) I don't know yours, but by your words, it is clear that you make blanket statements and generalizations. Such as comparing TSK to SNT and thinking you have made some sort of point.

SLT/SNT/WCK's goal is nothing STOP, it is always flow with the rhythm of the nature with ease. Thus, it said, comes accept....... try to hold something or force something is all broken the rhythm of the nature...
(nobody agrees or dissagrees with this-it isn't the point of the topic, nobody mentioned being static-perhaps you have confused this topic with another thread? Another forum?)

Thus, it is not Iron wire....etc.
Again, where are you coming from? And what does it have to do with whether or not a tucked position is good/bad? Stay on topic.
Also, Iron Wire seems to be the only thing in Hung Kuen that you are aware of, and only on a superficial level. Your belief that it is only about hard, tension, and forced breath, sounds as if you have only seen it on youtube and not had any direct experience. You don't seem to know "exact characteristics" of HK. It is you who does not know what you don't know.
If we are speaking of skelatal alignment, then speak in terms of skelatal alignment. Stay on topic. Speak of what you know. If you know about it, then add to the conversation, otherwise you are not contributing, you are sidetracking.

Don't speak of TSK if you don't know Hung Kuen. (sound familiar?)
I think perhaps you are a broken cup.
(meshuggena cup)-yiddish for crazy head :p

Hendrik

05-22-2009, 01:08 PM

TenTigers

05-22-2009, 01:15 PM

hahaha. ego arguements.
still doesnt solve anything right?
well, if you want to look at it that way, fine. No, it doesn't solve anything.
(deep breath)
Well! That being said, why don't we get back to the point, which was

Concave Chest - Curl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the Curl In Wing Chun. Some say the Chest is concaved. So is sinking your chest beneficial. What is the purpose of sinking in the chest and expanding the back?

How does the curl affect the power in your strikes?

How does the curl affect your ability to absorb hard strikes?

Please share your opinions on theory behind the concave chest?

So, do you , in your WCK use this body method?
If so, explain how and why.
If not, then save it.

TenTigers

05-22-2009, 01:26 PM

Hendrik

05-22-2009, 01:50 PM

(dang, you snuck that in while I was posting! I will answer it briefly, and hopefully we can move on)

Quote:
So what is hunched and not hunched? by what standard is hunched? what standard is not hunched...... How do you determine?

For some people, hunched is very rounded shoulders, very round back, sacrum tucked under,elbows in close.
For others, chin slightly tucked, sacrum slightly tucked, elbows in, yet not to an extreme. But within thi is the ability to open and close, so the elbows can be brought in closer if neccesary.
Of course, these are words, without pictures, without face to face, we can argue back and forth, unless one keeps an open mind and says,"Ok, there are extremes, and there is a balance between them."
Use your imagination, Visualization.

Thanks!

sorry for picking at you.

I know you are doing your best and lots of people out there doesnt even come this clear.

as it said, externally one train the muscle and bone, internally one train one cycle of breath.

Your answer can be a good basic begining for the externally train the muscle and bone and achive some result.

however, the limitation is this type of process cant progress too far into the muscle and bone. not to mention penetrate into the one cycle of breath. and infact for some this method will lead to getting stuck after a while and some going extreme into Hunch back ....

Pacman

05-22-2009, 02:00 PM

getting back to what this discussion was about before hendrik derailed it completely...boztepe does not have the hunched back and concave chest we are talking about.

in fact he is the epitome of the straight posture (combined with the "how do you do" shake my hand position).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfAK224798

go to 0:44 and you can see that his shoulders are back, his back is straight, and in fact he leans backwards a little bit.

My WC style is very different from any that I have seen as all the forms except SLT are very different. We don't use much of the classical stuff. My style just turns the hips to generate power.

I have seen classical guys like Emin Boztepe use the curl as he says that it generates power. Also, as a general rule in fighting, you don't want to be tilted back with an erect posture as it will limit your ability to simply move the head back to avoid strikes. The chest curl allows you to obtain the proper classical stance while keeping the head in a mobile position.

punchdrunk

05-22-2009, 03:32 PM

I think Emin is going from a hunch back to a straight back... the motion in either direction can add force, hunching tending to go more down ward and straightening tending to go more upward. Torso twisting (lateral movement) is usually used as well, really there's probably no such thing as a pure curl or pure straightening. Emin's discussion is interesting but it would be more valuable to watch him do a series of hard hits on a bag to show how he really moves instead of just isolating a slow single weak punch for the sake of his discussion. IF we start adiing footwork (really important) such as stepping or shifting it will get even more cofusing :):)

Vajramusti

05-22-2009, 03:33 PM

Joy, you're missing the point. These coaches may have had different approaches to training, etc. but they weren't theoretical -- they were regularly used and tested in fighting.

(((I dont think that I am missing the point- your's perhaps. We go around in circles.Differences in word usage- an "approach" has elements of a theory however tacit it may be.No question that an approach and/or a theory has to be tested empirically. Even then there can be perception issues on what the test really showed))

BJJ instructors have different apporaches, etc. too, But -- and here's the salient point: They're doing them in fighting.

((You are assuming that ALL TCMA folks never fight- a tall "theoretical"assumption. Not everyone is interested ina KFO audience or a U tube audience. For some there can be issues of legal consequences
in showing a fight))

Yes, sport fighting has "rules" for the safety of the competitors.

((For boxers- not much safety or even self left after multiple fights. The losers are of course on their own, even winners can be losers- we understand better these days more than evr before, the role of concussions. The list is long of broken men.))

You learn to box by actually boxing.

((Yeah, I know that- been there-done that- coached amateurs too and tested in non sporting conditions. Not sure what your point here- actually is. Many serious confrontations these days
gets tangled up with instruments. weapons, multiple opponents sometimes, unusual locations))))

And since we can't practice them realistically, we can't develop them to any significant level. Do you want to depend on things you've never really trained in a self-defense situation?

((Some actually have and a for some karma gets to them- wrong place, wrong time))

As far as age goes, as one of my friends once told me about basketball: the game doesn't change because we get older.

((Wrong analogy- the relationship between basketball and self defense can be obscure. I was talking about time in a style not necessarily simple age. Improvement in boxing, MT skills slow down earlier than some TCMA-takes time to develop some important TCMA skills. learning curves can vary, We are usually not talking about the same things- so I will let it go))

Cheers

joy chaudhuri

chusauli

05-23-2009, 11:25 AM

i read that you studied Sum Nung Wing Chun at one point so just imagine doing the arrow step punch, starting with a body that is completely straight.

can you not see how power and mobility moving forwardwould be reduced if you did not adopt a hunched posture, with hips forward and weight on the balls of your feet?

imagine doing an arrow step punch with a straight back, straight posture, shoulders back, flat footed.

an easier example.

look at other sports where you are required to shoot forward with speed.

wrestling
football
sprinters

whether looking at a collegiate wrestler, football lineman, or sprinter all adopt a posture where their weight is forward

I studied Sum Nung WCK, but at my present point of development and understanding, I do not agree that is the optimal body position to adopt. In fact, all stiff, fixed, adherence to body positions are false, because it depends on the situation on hand. You are dynamic and change according to pressure, etc.

Mobility is not enhanced because you are hunched over. Even in seemingly straight body position, you accelerate due to throwing your center of gravity forward.

In past history of Gong Sao matches of WCK against other "hunchback" systems, WCK has attacked the head easier because of the hunchback position. It is not saying that WCK is better than these hunchback systems, but using that position can have drawbacks.

Additionally, from a Chinese medicine perspective, the body compressed in that manner has a bad effect on the internal organs. Of course, this is not a consideration to the average person, but it is important to me as a Chinese medicine practitioner.

Hendrik

05-23-2009, 12:34 PM

Additionally, from a Chinese medicine perspective, the body compressed in that manner has a bad effect on the internal organs.

Of course, this is not a consideration to the average person, but it is important to me as a Chinese medicine practitioner.

Robert,

This is much much more serious today as you know in this age of the blood pressure, Heart, kidney....etc

healthy mis-condition population is growing spreading to younger and younger age.

as you know,
Those who propose to do fighting without taking serious consideration on the above health situation/codition is suicidal and fantasying and honestly very irresponsible.

Iron body/Iron palm.... those conditioning are not for everyone either....

IE: those who have heart, Kidney, blood pressure... issues is subject to destroy thier body due to heavy / intense physical training such as fast running and wrestling and boxing....

IMHO,
A holistic TCMA training cover lots of catagory and proper body conditioning is the most basic but most ignore/mis-undertood today. conditioning and training for health is not a burdern in martial art but the element that break one's training ceilling, it certainly not the figthing drill/ strategy training or applications which is belongs to a different catagory of training, but it is that silver bullet to break the ability boundary.

if one have health condition from sickness to aging, how can one train MA properly? that needs to be address.

Wayfaring

05-24-2009, 11:40 AM

BJJ instructors have different apporaches, etc. too, But -- and here's the salient point: They're doing them in fighting. That's how they, and we, know that what they are teaching/saying/etc. is valid.

This actually is quite a misconception. I hear people talking about their sport BJJ matches as "fights". They are not "fights". BJJ "matches" whether in training or competition are not "fights".

As a matter of fact, many MMA fighters don't train as much ground as they should because they say they don't like "jits without hits".

This is a big criticisim of sports BJJ - that it doesn't even encompass basic self-defense. That's the argument for the Gracie Combatives programs.

Hendrik

05-24-2009, 12:19 PM

Phil Redmond

05-24-2009, 02:08 PM

I haven't read any responses to this thread so I may have missed something to contradict this but the "Cobra" back isn't good for the internal organs as I've been taught.

t_niehoff

05-26-2009, 11:15 AM

This actually is quite a misconception. I hear people talking about their sport BJJ matches as "fights". They are not "fights". BJJ "matches" whether in training or competition are not "fights".

As a matter of fact, many MMA fighters don't train as much ground as they should because they say they don't like "jits without hits".

This is a big criticisim of sports BJJ - that it doesn't even encompass basic self-defense. That's the argument for the Gracie Combatives programs.

"Fighting" isn't just street fighting or anything goes or fights to the death, etc. and that anything else isn't "real fighting". In reality, "fighting" is when you face a genuinely resisting opponent who is doing their best to stop you, beat you, etc. using high levels of physical force. It's not the ruleset or the absence of a ruleset that make it a fight; it's the genuine (realistic) resistance with high levels of physical force. Boxing (sparring) is fighting; grappling is fighting. Whether in a cage or ring or mat, in competition, or in training. It makes no difference that boxing (the sport) doesn't permit grappling and grappling (the sport) doesn't permit striking. In both, the participants are going all-out and genuinely (realistically) resisting. That's what develops the skills to go all-out and defeat genuinely resisting opponents (because that is what you are practicing) -- you're doing in training just what you are doing in fighting.

What you are referring to is about focus. By taking striking out of the equation (in the case of BJJ), and only permitting grappling, you force the trainee to find grappling solutions and thereby further develop grappling skills to a much higher level than if you permitted striking "shortcuts" (it's a lot easier to set up things when you can strike).

What many people who don't train BJJ don't understand is that BJJ encompasses both sport and vale tudo (anything goes). While there is a huge overlap in skills, there are some sport-specific and some vale tudo-specific tactics/skills.

t_niehoff

05-26-2009, 11:41 AM

((You are assuming that ALL TCMA folks never fight- a tall "theoretical"assumption. Not everyone is interested ina KFO audience or a U tube audience. For some there can be issues of legal consequences
in showing a fight))

Of course TCMA people may have fights and/or do some sparring. That's not what I am talking about. Rather, I am referring to making fighting the core of their training program -- so that fighting is their training. For example, boxers. The core of their training is sparring. Yes, they do loads of conditioning (jumping rope, hitting the heavy bag, roadwork, etc.) but that is so that they are physically prepared to spar -- since it is the sparring that develops their boxing (fighting) skill.

Yes, sport fighting has "rules" for the safety of the competitors.

((For boxers- not much safety or even self left after multiple fights. The losers are of course on their own, even winners can be losers- we understand better these days more than evr before, the role of concussions. The list is long of broken men.))

The fighting isn't only the competitions, but in the training (sparring). I agree that boxing has ruined many men. Contact sports cause injuries. Doing them at very high levels and for long periods can do that. But that doesn't detract from the fact that to develop we must do certain things.

You learn to box by actually boxing.

((Yeah, I know that- been there-done that- coached amateurs too and tested in non sporting conditions. Not sure what your point here- actually is. Many serious confrontations these days
gets tangled up with instruments. weapons, multiple opponents sometimes, unusual locations))))

The point is (since you're not sure what it is) that you develop fighting skills, whether in boxing or BJJ or WCK, by fighting -- by doing it against genuine resisting opponents that are really trying to put the hurt in on you. There is no other way. You learn to box by actually boxing. That means, you can't learn to box by not boxing (by doing something other than getting in the ring and sparring). Similarly, you can't learn to fight or fight with WCK by not fighting. Skill comes from practice -- practicing doing what you want to do under fighting conditions.

I agree that "street fights" can "get tangled". That's why streetfights are not the way to go about getting in the necessary fight time to develop skill. Kano recognized this a hundred years ago. The JJJ guys that were good were the ones that went out and fought all the time. But those guys gave JJ a bad name (the practitioners were thugs). By taking JJJ and using the western sport model, he found a way to get in the fight time in a socially acceptable way.

As far as age goes, as one of my friends once told me about basketball: the game doesn't change because we get older.

((Wrong analogy- the relationship between basketball and self defense can be obscure. I was talking about time in a style not necessarily simple age. Improvement in boxing, MT skills slow down earlier than some TCMA-takes time to develop some important TCMA skills. learning curves can vary, We are usually not talking about the same things- so I will let it go))

WCK is not a "self-defense" method; it is a fighting method. Like any fighting method, it can be applied when we need to fight and that includes defending ourselves from assaults.

My analogy is apropos: the "game" -- fighting -- doesn't change because we get older. We need the same skills to fight regardless of our age. Do you think because you get older that punches stop coming or that you no longer need to be able to escape if mounted?

Wayfaring

05-26-2009, 11:50 AM

"Fighting" isn't just street fighting or anything goes or fights to the death, etc. and that anything else isn't "real fighting". In reality, "fighting" is when you face a genuinely resisting opponent who is doing their best to stop you, beat you, etc. using high levels of physical force. It's not the ruleset or the absence of a ruleset that make it a fight; it's the genuine (realistic) resistance with high levels of physical force. Boxing (sparring) is fighting; grappling is fighting. Whether in a cage or ring or mat, in competition, or in training. It makes no difference that boxing (the sport) doesn't permit grappling and grappling (the sport) doesn't permit striking. In both, the participants are going all-out and genuinely (realistically) resisting. That's what develops the skills to go all-out and defeat genuinely resisting opponents (because that is what you are practicing) -- you're doing in training just what you are doing in fighting.

Well this definition certainly helps clarify a lot in discussions. From a more "street" or "self-defense" perspective there certainly could be a very valid argument that a difference in real "fighting" would involve the consequences for losing - death, permanent injury, etc.

If your definition of "fighting" would be more of a Matt Thorntonesque "alive" training then yes, sure BJJ grappling would fit under that.

I don't really want to revisit the whole "sport" vs. "street" discussion as there is a large amount of illusion that's usually present there. I certainly agree with the higher level intensity sporting situations (or "fighting" as you describe above) being a better preparation for "street" than non-alive compliant drills.

What you are referring to is about focus. By taking striking out of the equation (in the case of BJJ), and only permitting grappling, you force the trainee to find grappling solutions and thereby further develop grappling skills to a much higher level than if you permitted striking "shortcuts" (it's a lot easier to set up things when you can strike).

true. the GNP game alters a lot of pure grappling approaches. If you never train without it, you don't develop skills that could help with it.

What many people who don't train BJJ don't understand is that BJJ encompasses both sport and vale tudo (anything goes). While there is a huge overlap in skills, there are some sport-specific and some vale tudo-specific tactics/skills.
true.

t_niehoff

05-26-2009, 12:09 PM

Well this definition certainly helps clarify a lot in discussions. From a more "street" or "self-defense" perspective there certainly could be a very valid argument that a difference in real "fighting" would involve the consequences for losing - death, permanent injury, etc.

Since there are cases of boxers,wrestlers, etc. getting killed or permanently injured, both in competition and in training, would that make these things "real fights"?

Since the overwhelming majority of streetfights don't involve (much of a risk of) death or permanent injury, does that mean they weren't "real fights"?

From my perspective, "the consequences" have really no relevence when talking about fighting skills or what is a "fight". For example, if you are mounted, the skills you need to get out are the same whether your opponent will let you tap (sport) or is intending to kill you. There isn't some other skill-set that works better when the rules are out the window. Similarly, if someone is shooting in to take you down, does it matter if it is in the cage or in an alley? If you don't want to go down, then you need the same skills (down blocking, cross-facing, sprawling, etc.). Etc.

I will concede that our tactics (how we use those skills) can vary depending on the situation.

sanjuro_ronin

05-26-2009, 12:19 PM

Hendrik

05-26-2009, 12:24 PM

One can't forget that the differences that matter in a "real" fight compared to a "sport" fight, are not physical per say, sport fighting requires far more physical skill than "street fighting".
The differences are environmental - its not a pre-established and "comfortable" surrounding, weapons are a factor and so are the "unexpected"- and mental.
No matter what, in a sport fight, even if there is a risk of death, one doesn't go in thinking that the other guy is there to kill them, at least I never did and don't know of anyone that does.
Yes, you are 100% consious of the fact that your life is in danger, but it's not the same.
Of course, these issues, environmental and mental, are ones that many sprt fighters have dealt with in their lives anyways, I have yet to meet a fighter (not a recreational trainee) that has NOT fought a "real fight".

Yup.

it is a very different thing between aim at the inner thigh and shoot it with chain low round horse kick to take the competitor out.

and,

Aiming at some very fatal area and detemine to take it out with continous chain low round horse kick.

as for the concave chest....etc. the answer is very clear for those who does Kyokushin IBUKI breathing well. it is dynamic and affecting varous paths of the body.

t_niehoff

05-26-2009, 12:30 PM

One can't forget that the differences that matter in a "real" fight compared to a "sport" fight, are not physical per say, sport fighting requires far more physical skill than "street fighting".

Agreed.

The differences are environmental - its not a pre-established and "comfortable" surrounding, weapons are a factor and so are the "unexpected"- and mental.
No matter what, in a sport fight, even if there is a risk of death, one doesn't go in thinking that the other guy is there to kill them, at least I never did and don't know of anyone that does.
Yes, you are 100% consious of the fact that your life is in danger, but it's not the same.

Again, I agree.

In my view, training like a fighter (as wrestlers, boxers, BJJ, muay thai, etc. do) is what will best mentally prepare us for this situation. Training like a fighter means to routinely push yourself past your physical limits, to be conditioned and used to taking punishment, etc. This harsh physical training is what prepares you mentally. It also gets you into the habit of focusing on procedure rather than consequences (like airline pilots during a crash).

Of course, these issues, environmental and mental, are ones that many sprt fighters have dealt with in their lives anyways, I have yet to meet a fighter (not a recreational trainee) that has NOT fought a "real fight".

I am recalling the Faber-multiple attacker situation in Bali.

sanjuro_ronin

05-26-2009, 12:32 PM

Agreed.

Again, I agree.

In my view, training like a fighter (as wrestlers, boxers, BJJ, muay thai, etc. do) is what will best mentally prepare us for this situation. Training like a fighter means to routinely push yourself past your physical limits, to be conditioned and used to taking punishment, etc. This harsh physical training is what prepares you mentally. It also gets you into the habit of focusing on procedure rather than consequences (like airline pilots during a crash).

I am recalling the Faber-multiple attacker situation in Bali.

Agreed, but I don't know what you mean about the Faber situation in Bali though...

t_niehoff

05-26-2009, 12:37 PM

Agreed, but I don't know what you mean about the Faber situation in Bali though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg7Kc8So

Wayfaring

05-26-2009, 12:40 PM

Since there are cases of boxers,wrestlers, etc. getting killed or permanently injured, both in competition and in training, would that make these things "real fights"?

Since the overwhelming majority of streetfights don't involve (much of a risk of) death or permanent injury, does that mean they weren't "real fights"?

My feelings are it's a different scenario. Certainly sporting matches of boxing, wrestling, BJJ at a high level of intensity actually can carry a greater possibility of injury than a typical bar fight scenario. They can be more taxing physically, involve more strategy as your opponent could be much more skilled, etc. The rules restrictions in reality may represent less protection overall than a street scenario.

In a bar fight, you have to worry about possible weapons, being kicked when you're down, reactions of others in proximity to the fight, etc. I think that's a more cautious approach tactically. You have to worry about legal repercussions too. But dealing with an unskilled drunk person isn't that taxing in most scenarios.

The sporting matches to me can even seem more "real" of a fight than the self-defense stuff. I mean rolling with someone from the Olympic wrestling team is a hell of a lot harder or more of a "real fight" to me than some dude pushing me in a bar.

I guess it's just semantics we're talking about.

From my perspective, "the consequences" have really no relevence when talking about fighting skills or what is a "fight". For example, if you are mounted, the skills you need to get out are the same whether your opponent will let you tap (sport) or is intending to kill you. There isn't some other skill-set that works better when the rules are out the window. Similarly, if someone is shooting in to take you down, does it matter if it is in the cage or in an alley? If you don't want to go down, then you need the same skills (down blocking, cross-facing, sprawling, etc.). Etc.

Yes, for skill development there is practically no difference. Only in tactics.

I will concede that our tactics (how we use those skills) can vary depending on the situation.

It's kind of interesting. In times of peace, with all the legal protection and protection of society, it's kind of like training for "self-defense fighting" is a lesser thing than training for the gladiator games types of confrontations in MMA.

Although I don't want to discount realistic self-defense. But my feelings are that is more tactical training than skills training.

sanjuro_ronin

05-26-2009, 12:41 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg7Kc8So

That was interesting...

t_niehoff

05-26-2009, 12:50 PM

I guess it's just semantics we're talking about.

A fight is a fight. "Real fight" is when semantics (and fantasy) take over.

Although I don't want to discount realistic self-defense. But my feelings are that is more tactical training than skills training.

I look at "self-defense" training like I do knife-fighting training -- its mostly fantasy-based.

sanjuro_ronin

05-26-2009, 12:55 PM

I look at "self-defense" training like I do knife-fighting training -- its mostly fantasy-based.

That is a whole other thread.

Wayfaring

05-26-2009, 01:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg7Kc8So

Geez, going out drinking with Urijah Faber apparently offers whole other levels in the concept of self-defense.

Wayfaring

05-26-2009, 01:17 PM

A fight is a fight. "Real fight" is when semantics (and fantasy) take over.

Yeah, it's funny to me how people on the Olympic wrestling team talk about how they "wrestled" their opponent, BJJ black belts talk about their "matches" at the Mundials, boxing matches are referred to as boxing "matches", but it takes a WCK practitioner to reclassify all this as a "real fight". Typical.

I see the point, but I'll probably not ever change my terminology.

I look at "self-defense" training like I do knife-fighting training -- its mostly fantasy-based.
Most of the "self-defense" stuff I would be referring to is firearms tactics, concealment and training as well as other non-lethal weapons options such as spray weapons or ballistic pens. Also tactics in where to place items in your normal environment such as home or car. I'm not comfortable with a knife and I think it takes a lot of work to maintain skills with it although I'm sure an expert could convince me otherwise.

I agree a lot that's packaged as self-defense is fantasy based.

Pacman

05-26-2009, 03:23 PM

the chest and shoulders are sunken, but the spine is still straight

I studied Sum Nung WCK, but at my present point of development and understanding, I do not agree that is the optimal body position to adopt. In fact, all stiff, fixed, adherence to body positions are false, because it depends on the situation on hand. You are dynamic and change according to pressure, etc.

Mobility is not enhanced because you are hunched over. Even in seemingly straight body position, you accelerate due to throwing your center of gravity forward.

In past history of Gong Sao matches of WCK against other "hunchback" systems, WCK has attacked the head easier because of the hunchback position. It is not saying that WCK is better than these hunchback systems, but using that position can have drawbacks.

Additionally, from a Chinese medicine perspective, the body compressed in that manner has a bad effect on the internal organs. Of course, this is not a consideration to the average person, but it is important to me as a Chinese medicine practitioner.

chusauli

05-27-2009, 08:37 AM

the chest and shoulders are sunken, but the spine is still straight

I know.

I am talking about WCK vs. other Southern based fist systems.

Yoshiyahu

05-27-2009, 06:07 PM

I know.

I am talking about WCK vs. other Southern based fist systems.

What do you mean?

sanjuro_ronin

05-28-2009, 05:50 AM

What do you mean?

Perhaps the example of Southern Mantis that is far more concaved and the spine less straight than WC.

Yoshiyahu

05-28-2009, 01:17 PM

Perhaps the example of Southern Mantis that is far more concaved and the spine less straight than WC.

Thanks for the clarification. I have also heard that Bak Me/Pei Mei has a deeper curl than Wing Chun?

did Bruce Lee have a curl?

Hardwork108

05-28-2009, 07:44 PM

Perhaps the example of Southern Mantis that is far more concaved and the spine less straight than WC.

My understanding of at least some lineages of SPM is that inspite of the concaved back/chest their spine should be as straight as any other kung fu stylist. It is an authentic TCMA thing, you know.

Yoshiyahu

06-04-2009, 07:22 PM

Hardwork does your lineage adopt the curl or straight chest method?

LSWCTN1

06-13-2009, 03:01 AM

punchdrunk

06-13-2009, 06:39 AM

looked to me like he bent his torso quite a bit while working the jong, I guess it may come down to definitions like how much of a curl is a curl? He starts straight and bends as he moves around the dummy in my opinion.

chusauli

06-13-2009, 08:53 AM

That's what YKS looks like...

Hardwork108

06-13-2009, 06:43 PM

Hardwork does your lineage adopt the curl or straight chest method?

We are straight even if through natural WC practice one may develop a slightly "curved" higher back and hence slightly "hollow" chest. Of course the posture always maintains a straight back/spine.

Hardwork108

06-13-2009, 06:49 PM

Perhaps the example of Southern Mantis that is far more concaved and the spine less straight than WC.

I am of he opinion that even in Southern Mantis one should maintain a straight spine, even if one's upper body is "concaved", otherwise one is going against a major TCMA / internal concept.

taai gihk yahn

06-13-2009, 07:48 PM

I am of he opinion that even in Southern Mantis one should maintain a straight spine, even if one's upper body is "concaved", otherwise one is going against a major TCMA / internal concept.

it's an interesting point of discussion: for example, what does one mean by "straight" vis-a-vis the spine; the spine is never really straight, nor should it be, obviously; the three natural curves can be exaggerated or decreased, or, more importantly, out of balance - "straight" could refer to taking a resultant imaginary line that intersects the three curves, and the area under the curves relative to that line, with the resultant of adding the three being zero (this works in 3-D - meaning that if a vertebrae is rotated, then that needs to be balanced elsewhere, either by one or more other vertebra); in other words, it's like a coiled spring: when you compress it, if it's aligned, it springs back; if one curve of the spine is too much or little and not balanced elsewhere, then you loose that spring;

talking about the "concave" chest, the 4 character "poem" that we use is "hahm hum, baht bui": "swallow the chest (to) pluck up the back"; basically, this refers to letting go of anterior pectoral tension, which is what creates inhibition of lower trapezius: when lower traps are inhibited (via the concept of agonist - antagonist reciprocal inhibition), this allows the scapulae to tip forwards, creating an imbalance in upper thoracics, creating a dampening effect on the ability of forces to move through cervicothroacic juntion (C7/T1); when the lower traps function properly, then the scapula are retracted and "float" on the rib cage (remember, the shoulder blades are only attached to the rest of the skeleton in the front at the acromioclavicular joint - meaning that on the back, they are attached via soft tissue); so when that happens, the arms move more freely, and are more sensitive (think about how much sensitivity you loose if you are trying to "listen" to someone else's body when bridging w/all the excess "noise" of your shoulder blades moving through resistance; not to mention the loss of connection of the arms to the sacrum because latissimus is facilitated, so you don't get clear feedback from your feet on the ground); so "plucking" up the back is basically letting the shoulder blades assume a balanced position and move freely; this will also allow a freer breathing pattern, because of how the respiratory diaphragm relates to the thoracics when they are aligned;

what I have seen a lot is that many older "masters" do end up with exaggeration of the pectoral concavity - I think that it comes from spending so much time in close bridging "wedge" shapes, but not balancing this by doing "opening" or elongation practice alone; that is, if you practice partnered work all the time, you will of course get good at staying "in the box"; but after the fact, this needs to be re-balanced

taai gihk yahn

06-13-2009, 07:55 PM

Moderation, (we can say middle path and be deep an' all Buddhist-like..). Not too hunched, and not too upright. Chin jutting out, chest wide open is not correct either.
If you think otherwise, you probably haven't fought much.
the old time osteopaths talked about "easy flexion" - meaning that the spine wasn't too curved or too straight; personally, I like to talk to patient's about the "Goldilocks Principle" - not too much, not too little, just right; of course, finding "just right" takes awareness...

a lot of these Chinese "internal" concepts in terms of the spine are actually articulated in a very detailed and comprehensive manner by classical osteopathic teachings: in fact, the correlations are almost 1:1 in many areas; many ostepathic treatment techniques require almost exactly the same body mechanics as one would utilize during bridging etc.;

Pacman

06-14-2009, 04:23 AM

can someone please clarify for me?

i have always understood yks wing chun has the sunken chest/shoulders, but on this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXDE_2-Uhms

they seem to be remarkably 'straight', and yet IMHO the demo is a high quality one?

like others have said. the shoulders and chest are relaxed and will naturally sink. doesnt not mean your spine is curled over like a scythe

compare your video to this (look at 1:07)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfAK224798

you can see that he is straight with shoulders more back..hes actually leaning backwards!

Yoshiyahu

06-15-2009, 05:16 PM

Hardwork108

06-15-2009, 06:17 PM

it's an interesting point of discussion: for example, what does one mean by "straight" vis-a-vis the spine; the spine is never really straight, nor should it be, obviously; the three natural curves can be exaggerated or decreased, or, more importantly, out of balance - "straight" could refer to taking a resultant imaginary line that intersects the three curves, and the area under the curves relative to that line, with the resultant of adding the three being zero (this works in 3-D - meaning that if a vertebrae is rotated, then that needs to be balanced elsewhere, either by one or more other vertebra); in other words, it's like a coiled spring: when you compress it, if it's aligned, it springs back; if one curve of the spine is too much or little and not balanced elsewhere, then you loose that spring;

talking about the "concave" chest, the 4 character "poem" that we use is "hahm hum, baht bui": "swallow the chest (to) pluck up the back"; basically, this refers to letting go of anterior pectoral tension, which is what creates inhibition of lower trapezius: when lower traps are inhibited (via the concept of agonist - antagonist reciprocal inhibition), this allows the scapulae to tip forwards, creating an imbalance in upper thoracics, creating a dampening effect on the ability of forces to move through cervicothroacic juntion (C7/T1); when the lower traps function properly, then the scapula are retracted and "float" on the rib cage (remember, the shoulder blades are only attached to the rest of the skeleton in the front at the acromioclavicular joint - meaning that on the back, they are attached via soft tissue); so when that happens, the arms move more freely, and are more sensitive (think about how much sensitivity you loose if you are trying to "listen" to someone else's body when bridging w/all the excess "noise" of your shoulder blades moving through resistance; not to mention the loss of connection of the arms to the sacrum because latissimus is facilitated, so you don't get clear feedback from your feet on the ground); so "plucking" up the back is basically letting the shoulder blades assume a balanced position and move freely; this will also allow a freer breathing pattern, because of how the respiratory diaphragm relates to the thoracics when they are aligned;

what I have seen a lot is that many older "masters" do end up with exaggeration of the pectoral concavity - I think that it comes from spending so much time in close bridging "wedge" shapes, but not balancing this by doing "opening" or elongation practice alone; that is, if you practice partnered work all the time, you will of course get good at staying "in the box"; but after the fact, this needs to be re-balanced

I was not talking about the straightness of the spine at molecular level. The spine as straight as you can make it. Surely you know what I am referring to?

taai gihk yahn

06-16-2009, 07:39 PM

I was not talking about the straightness of the spine at molecular level.
nor was I; but I'm guessing that you know that; the question is why you choose to make a sarcastic comment apparently belittling the fact that I go into some detail about the biomechanics;

The spine as straight as you can make it.
yes, which is still curved, no matter what; what I was pointing out is that the notion of "straight" can be described geometrically, as a resultant of the three natural curves being balanced; which is why you can have someone "hunched", but still be "straight" - the spine is functioning like a coiled spring, the skill is to be able to compress the spring in a way that doesn't throw you out of balance when you coil and uncoil; surely, you have had direct experience w/this phenomenon?

Hardwork108

06-16-2009, 08:49 PM

nor was I; but I'm guessing that you know that; the question is why you choose to make a sarcastic comment apparently belittling the fact that I go into some detail about the biomechanics;

yes, which is still curved, no matter what; what I was pointing out is that the notion of "straight" can be described geometrically, as a resultant of the three natural curves being balanced; which is why you can have someone "hunched", but still be "straight" - the spine is functioning like a coiled spring, the skill is to be able to compress the spring in a way that doesn't throw you out of balance when you coil and uncoil; surely, you have had direct experience w/this phenomenon?

And there are people who are hunched but not straight. It will all depend on their understanding or lack of, TCMA principles. I have never trained to coil or to uncoil my spine. What we do is "tuck in", sink and do what we have to do. However if on a micro level our spines coil and recoil then that is new to me and thank you for the info.

LSWCTN1

06-17-2009, 12:59 AM

Great video on the YKS. Do you have anymore videos...on YKS forms or San Sik?

i stumbled accross this gem by accident actually, but if anyone can post any others then it would be greatly appreciated :D

i do know that there's a nice Kwok Wan Ping empty dummy on youtube though

taai gihk yahn

06-17-2009, 12:51 PM

And there are people who are hunched but not straight.
I absolutely agree

It will all depend on their understanding or lack of, TCMA principles.
yes; and this is why standing practice is of value: it slows down the movement (because, even when standing "still", one is still moving, of course); over time, one is able to feel one's own movement at a more precise level, even when moving quickly;

I have never trained to coil or to uncoil my spine. What we do is "tuck in", sink and do what we have to do.
well, coil / uncoil may not be the best word, as that could imply a turing / twisting movement (e.g. - bagua-like motion); maybe compress / decompress along a vertical axis? the tuck in / sink would be an example of this; again, while each style may have various "trademarks" of their movements, there are more similarities than differences between (real / authentic) taiji, WC, so. mantis, etc.

However if on a micro level our spines coil and recoil then that is new to me and thank you for the info.
since you keep coming back "micro" level, which I have up to this point not been describing, it is actually at the level of connective tissue (CT) that you do see this occur: CT is made up of elastin / collagen fibers housed in a ground substance, forming a matrix and functioning based on principles of tensegrity; basically, if you compress, the force is distributed discontinuously - that is, it disperses "randomly" through the tissue, so as to prevent overload of tissue and subsequent mechanical failure (of course, a force can be strong enough to override this); conversely, when the CT is elongated, the fibers direct force continuously - this strengthens the resistance to tearing (which can again be overridden); when the CT is "active", which is what happens as the result of moving "harmoniously" w/one's breath, the ground reaction force, and the force delivered by the opponent, then one is able to sense and function in a way that is consistent with what is described classical as so-called "internal"; anyway, if you are looking for an excellent description of this from a "non-scientific" perspective, Tai Chi Bob is the man to "talk" to here: for him, the experience came first, followed by the research (for me, it was the other way around - but we both ended up in the same place, which is a strong indicator of the universality of these principles);

sanjuro_ronin

06-17-2009, 01:30 PM

To paraphrase GM Mark (and a few others), as straight as it needs to be and as "curved" as it needs to be.

Hardwork108

06-17-2009, 05:53 PM

To paraphrase GM Mark (and a few others), as straight as it needs to be and as "curved" as it needs to be.

Paraphrasing is easy but UNDERSTANDING is not!;)

Hardwork108

06-17-2009, 06:14 PM

yes; and this is why standing practice is of value: it slows down the movement (because, even when standing "still", one is still moving, of course); over time, one is able to feel one's own movement at a more precise level, even when moving quickly;

Very true and of course the standing practice also helps as an internal linking exercise.

It is unfortunate that nowadays, specially with the knucklehead culture prevalent in the MA community, it is difficult to implement such training as regularly and as widespread as one would like.

well, coil / uncoil may not be the best word, as that could imply a turing and twisting movement (e.g. - bagua-like motion); maybe compress / decompress along a vertical axis? the tuck in / sink would be an example of this;
I see what you are saying better now.

again, while each style may have various "trademarks" of their movements, there are more similarities than differences between (real / authentic) taiji, WC, so. mantis, etc.

I would only agree that there are more similarities than many think but at the same time there may also be more differences than many think as well, if we are indeed discussing real/authentic kung fu styles.

Of course, wether your statement holds true will depend on the individual kung fu styles being compared.

since you keep coming back "micro" level, which I have up to this point not been describing, it is actually at the level of connective tissue (CT) that you do see this occur: CT is made up of elastin / collagen fibers housed in a ground substance, forming a matrix and functioning based on principles of tensegrity; basically, if you compress, the force is distributed discontinuously - that is, it disperses "randomly" through the tissue, so as to prevent overload of tissue and subsequent mechanical failure (of course, a force can be strong enough to override this); conversely, when the CT is elongated, the fibers direct force continuously - this strengthens the resistance to tearing (which can again be overridden); when the CT is "active", which is what happens as the result of moving "harmoniously" w/one's breath, the ground reaction force, and the force delivered by the opponent, then one is able to sense and function in a way that is consistent with what is described classical as so-called "internal"; anyway, if you are looking for an excellent description of this from a "non-scientific" perspective, Tai Chi Bob is the man to "talk" to here: for him, the experience came first, followed by the research (for me, it was the other way around - but we both ended up in the same place, which is a strong indicator of the universality of these principles);

Interesting.

taai gihk yahn

06-17-2009, 06:33 PM

Very true and of course the standing practice also helps as an internal linking exercise.
not sure what you mean by "linking" - if you mean whole body connectedness in terms of economy of movement, sure; meaning that, when you move at one joint, every other joint in the body adjusts so that the total net tension in the body stays balanced

It is unfortunate that nowadays, specially with the knucklehead culture prevalent in the MA community, it is difficult to implement such training as regularly and as widespread as one would like.
well, realistically, it just takes too long for most people (when I first practiced standing, it required anywhere from 30 min. to an hour at a time to get any sort of effect; now it's immediate, but only after ~12 years...), so I can understand why most people aren't interested; and in terms of functionality, I believe that there are really more efficient ways to gain fighting skill, at least in the short term, which seems to confer an advantage in most cases; of course, I am aware of the argument that developing this skill in the long run will make you a better fighter, but I don't know if I agree w/that necessarily, given the many variables; but for me it's a worthwhile endeavor because of the health benefits, which are indisputable, and more practical for the average person to develop than fighting skill anyway; still, it does require a certain commitment towards introspection - true "internal" practice involves a psychological dimension that most people are not willing to experience

I would only agree that there are more similarities than many think but at the same time there may also be more differences than many think as well, if we are indeed discussing real/authentic kung fu styles.
well, it's a continuum of sorts: taiji and baji share more similarities in terms of expression of "ging" than they do w/bagua, but taiji and bagua both function out of similar postural principles

Of course, wether your statement holds true will depend on the individual kung fu styles being compared.
or even individual practitioners...

Interesting.[/QUOTE]
I have always found it to be as such; tensegrity is one of those so-called "western" concepts that bridges the gap nicely...

Hardwork108

06-18-2009, 01:23 AM

not sure what you mean by "linking" - if you mean whole body connectedness in terms of economy of movement, sure; meaning that, when you move at one joint, every other joint in the body adjusts so that the total net tension in the body stays balanced
It goes a "little" deeper than that and it is not something that can be explained on an internet board and to be honest it is not even a subject matter to be discussed in a forum thread.

well, realistically, it just takes too long for most people (when I first practiced standing, it required anywhere from 30 min. to an hour at a time to get any sort of effect; now it's immediate, but only after ~12 years...), so I can understand why most people aren't interested; and in terms of functionality, I believe that there are really more efficient ways to gain fighting skill, at least in the short term, which seems to confer an advantage in most cases; of course, I am aware of the argument that developing this skill in the long run will make you a better fighter, but I don't know if I agree w/that necessarily, given the many variables; but for me it's a worthwhile endeavor because of the health benefits, which are indisputable, and more practical for the average person to develop than fighting skill anyway; still, it does require a certain commitment towards introspection - true "internal" practice involves a psychological dimension that most people are not willing to experience

I know what you mean exactly but yet you did practice in such manner (and my respects) whereas there are many who would not put up with this kind of methodology and that is where I bring my knucklehead example because these people need to have someone jumping on their heads and kicking the crap out of them from almost day one, for them to believe that they are "learning" a martial art, otherwise it is all a "fantasy", they say.

well, it's a continuum of sorts: taiji and baji share more similarities in terms of expression of "ging" than they do w/bagua, but taiji and bagua both function out of similar postural principles

And furthermore baji is a more external style, so much so that traditionally it was combined with the internal Piqua Jang style to balance its hardness. Fascinating subject area, the TCMAs, one must admit. :)

or even individual practitioners...
Agreed.

I have always found it to be as such; tensegrity is one of those so-called "western" concepts that bridges the gap nicely...

Hey, don't some people say that tensegrity exercises were practiced by North American Indians? Still, I suppose that is still the West, if these people are right, even if the actual roots of these indigenous people may have been the East.:)