Qixing lyrics

[GeneChing]

These are excerpted from Shaolin Gong Fu – A Course in Traditional Forms (http://www.martialartsmart.net/bslx115.html). I love their translations because they are so funky. They call qixing The Plough Form, which could be a reference to the big dipper stance work. In Chinese, it's 七星拳 (qixingquan). This comes from V. 3 p. 11:
The Plough Form
1. Ready Position
2. Starting Movement
3. Small Position With A Plough Stance
4. Crisscross Snapkick
5. Small Position With a Plough Stance
6. Defending The Left Ear While Clapping The Right Foot
7. Rushing A Fist In A Forward Lunge
8. Enpi The Left Elbow In a Horse Stance
9. Striking Both Hands While Stamping a Foot
10. Striking the Crotch
11. Enpi and Rebounding
12. Crisscross Snapkick
13. Small Position With A Plough Stance
14. Clapping The Right Foot
15. Pushing A Claw By Turning Back
16. Walking like a ****
17. Walking like a ****
18. Walking like a ****
19. Small Position With A Plough Stance
20. Crisscross Snapkick
21. Small Position With A Plough Stance
22. Rushing A Fist In A Forward Lunge
23. Rushing A Fist In A Forward Lunge
24. Rushing A Fist In A Forward Lunge
25. Small Position With A Plough Stance
26. Crisscross Snapkick
27. Small Position With A Plough Stance
28. Enpi The Left Elbow In a Horse Stance
29. Right Enpi
30. Outside Crescent
31. Rushing A Fist In A Forward Lunge
32. Enpi The Left Elbow In a Horse Stance
33. Striking Both Hands While Stamping a Foot
34. Striking the Crotch
35. Enpi and Rebounding
36. Crisscross Snapkick
37. Small Position With A Plough Stance
38. Clapping the Foot While Jumping Up
40. Rushing Both Fists to Both Sides In A Forward Lunge
41. Small Position With A Plough Stance
42. Rushing the Left Fist In A Forward Lunge
43. Rushing the Right Fist In A Forward Lunge
44. Defending the Crotch in a Horse Stance
45. The Finish

Threads worthy of note for fellow qixing practitioners:
qixing & changhuxinyimen (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51555)
Pincer Claw (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42104)

[LFJ]

16. Walking like a ****
17. Walking like a ****
18. Walking like a ****

lol, thats great! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

10. Striking the Crotch
34. Striking the Crotch
44. Defending the Crotch in a Horse Stance

Gene, Gene, Gene....;)

[LFJ]

The Plough Form
1. Ready Position
2. Starting Movement
3. Small Position With A Plough Stance
4. Crisscross Snapkick
5. Small Position With a Plough Stance
6. Defending The Left Ear While Clapping The Right Foot
7. Rushing A Fist In A Forward Lunge
8. Enpi The Left Elbow In a Horse Stance

i see they do the version with the snapkick and slapkick at the very beginning....

btw, what is "enpi"? isnt that japanese for their elbow strikes? every "enpi" here has to do with an elbow.

interesting choice for translation.

[GeneChing]

Enpi, or more properly empi, comes from the Japanese term for elbow strike. Empi (猿臂 Mandarin yuánbì) means 'ape elbow'.

[GeneChing]

In our 2005 Shaolin Special (May June issue) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=590), we published 7 Star Fist: Shaolin Qixing Quan Revealed By Shi Xing Ying with Grace Gee, Bujin Guo, and Chen Xinghua. It described the seven significant moves from this form. I'm copying them here. Note that the issue has the Chinese characters too, but I'm not going to transfer those (too much work right now).
1. Qixing Bu Shi (Seven Star Foot Pattern)
2. Soushou Bingbu Shi (Locking Hand, Feet Together Pattern)
3. Jixing Bu Shi (Rooster Form Foot Pattern)
4. Sanzhou Tiaoshui Shi (Single Elbow Carries Water Pattern)
5. Tixi Zuandi Shi (Lift Knee, Screw into Ground Pattern)
6. Shuanglong Chudong Shi (Twin Dragons Come out of the Cave Pattern)
7. Dangshan Boshui Shi (Seal the Mountain, Splash Water Pattern)

[LFJ]

Note that the issue has the Chinese characters too, but I'm not going to transfer those (too much work right now).
1. Qixing Bu Shi (Seven Star Foot Pattern)
2. Soushou Bingbu Shi (Locking Hand, Feet Together Pattern)
3. Jixing Bu Shi (Rooster Form Foot Pattern)
4. Sanzhou Tiaoshui Shi (Single Elbow Carries Water Pattern)
5. Tixi Zuandi Shi (Lift Knee, Screw into Ground Pattern)
6. Shuanglong Chudong Shi (Twin Dragons Come out of the Cave Pattern)
7. Dangshan Boshui Shi (Seal the Mountain, Splash Water Pattern)

awesome names! thanks..

i guess the characters and pinyin are like this, based on what you provide. maybe double check me;

1. 七星步式 (qīxīngbù shì)
2. 锁手并步式 (suǒshǒu bìngbù shì)
3. 鸡形步式 (jīxíngbù shì)
4. 单肘挑水式 (dānzhǒu tiāoshuǐ shì)
5. 提膝钻地式 (tíxī zuāndì shì)
6. 双龙出洞式 (shuānglóng chūdòng shì)
7. 挡山泼水式 (dǎngshān pōshuǐ shì)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Found out more about the 7 Star set;

It is from when Ji Long Feng visited Shaolin, it is a rooster fighting set. it is defense against kicks.
It either was inspiration for Ji Long Feng or came from his instruction there to the monks. It was originally called Qin Xi Ba, which shows it has a relationship to the Xin Yi Ba that Shaolin got from Ji Long Feng. So, the 7 Star set is related to the Rooster set practiced by Henan Xinyi Quan and Shanxi Xingyi Quan.

1. 七星拳 "qixingquan" (eng.: seven star boxing)
2. 长护心意门拳 "changhuxinyimenquan" (eng.: constant protection of the mind-gate boxing)

they are called "mother and son" sets, just as xiaohongquan and its matching dahongquan set.

changhuxinyimen is said to have been created by song dynasty monk huiwei, then altered in the yuan dynasty by jinnaluo, and in the ming dynasty by juexun, tongxiang and other warrior monks.

the qixing set is laid out upon the formation of the big dipper rather than the usual straight line. hence the name "seven star".

qixing and changhuxinyimen share the "rooster" steps along with the hand formation and some similar applications.

Qixing may have Taoist origin, since the Qixing is a Taoist concept.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=w2awOCDRtrc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2RuX7jh40hc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OVTIWYlncC8

[GeneChing]

Excellent posts, LFJ & Sal. It's reaffirming to see some solid stuff here.

It's worthy of note that these lyrics map on to the Taguo lyrics but are slightly different in Chinese as well as English. For example Seven Star Foot Pattern (七星步式) is Small Position With A Plough Stance (七星小架).

Anyone want to venture a connection between Qixing and Qixing Tanglong? The Taguo Qixing Tanglong is in my practice regimen lately. I've been working a lot of the Taguo-influenced renditions recently.

[wiz cool c]

anyone practice this form? how does it help your body,fighting abilities,any interesting insite on this form.

[Lokhopkuen]

Hsing Yi is more related to Wu Dang than Shaolin:D

[wiz cool c]

don't get it

[RenDaHai]

Further to above;

Qixing has 2 major variations, one is the current popular one, the other follows roughly the same sequence but is quite different. It is centred around the technique 'JiXingBu' or the 'Rooster step'.

The uncommon variation has the technique JiXingBu repeated 9 times. The popular variation does not fully contain it at all, instead it breaks it into components and puts it throughout the form.

The technique JiXingBu doesn't have one specific application, rather it is a technique designed to be used in many ways as a method of entering the opponents space. It employs the 'WuHuaBaShou' circling hand technique and simultaneous circling leg technique.

Both variations use very small framed stances. The purpose of the form is to teach you how to keep yourself guarded and evasive while still moving forwards. Keeping yourself moving in the small frame so that you are ready to explode into the large frame when the time is right.

It is said of the form that the feet move like that of a rooster, the body twists like a dragons body and the head turns like a monkeys.

The name 'QiXingQuan' and 'JiXingQuan' are very similar sounding in Chinese. This is just conjecture but considering the form is centred around the rooster step I sometimes think It may have originally been 'Rooster fist' and then changed to '7- star' because it sounds better.

QiXing Quan also has a very rare ErLu (second road). It is also kept in the small frame and makes use of a similar hand position.

In total I have seen 5 distinct forms called QiXing Quan in SongShan. 3 of them are clearly related variations on the same set.

[RenDaHai]

Hsing Yi is more related to Wu Dang than Shaolin:D

Although this may be true today....

The Henan XinYi styles (not xinG yi) are very closely related to Shaolin and sometimes indistinguishable. XinYi is the precurser of XingYi and so there is a relation.

Looking at modern WuDang forms they definately contain a lot of modern XinG Yi technique, but not necessarily that of the older XinYi which song shan forms contain in abundance. I'm not sure from what era the current set of Wudang forms evolved.

[wiz cool c]

Further to above;

Qixing has 2 major variations, one is the current popular one, the other follows roughly the same sequence but is quite different. It is centred around the technique 'JiXingBu' or the 'Rooster step'.

The uncommon variation has the technique JiXingBu repeated 9 times. The popular variation does not fully contain it at all, instead it breaks it into components and puts it throughout the form.

The technique JiXingBu doesn't have one specific application, rather it is a technique designed to be used in many ways as a method of entering the opponents space. It employs the 'WuHuaBaShou' circling hand technique and simultaneous circling leg technique.

Both variations use very small framed stances. The purpose of the form is to teach you how to keep yourself guarded and evasive while still moving forwards. Keeping yourself moving in the small frame so that you are ready to explode into the large frame when the time is right.

It is said of the form that the feet move like that of a rooster, the body twists like a dragons body and the head turns like a monkeys.

The name 'QiXingQuan' and 'JiXingQuan' are very similar sounding in Chinese. This is just conjecture but considering the form is centred around the rooster step I sometimes think It may have originally been 'Rooster fist' and then changed to '7- star' because it sounds better.

QiXing Quan also has a very rare ErLu (second road). It is also kept in the small frame and makes use of a similar hand position.

In total I have seen 5 distinct forms called QiXing Quan in SongShan. 3 of them are clearly related variations on the same set.

very informative,thanks for the info

[Lokhopkuen]

Although this may be true today....

The Henan XinYi styles (not xinG yi) are very closely related to Shaolin and sometimes indistinguishable. XinYi is the precurser of XingYi and so there is a relation.

Looking at modern WuDang forms they definately contain a lot of modern XinG Yi technique, but not necessarily that of the older XinYi which song shan forms contain in abundance. I'm not sure from what era the current set of Wudang forms evolved.

Thank you for the clarity;
Although I'm a no expert on the subject I have been around the martial arts for a bit and been blessed to meet many informed practitioners. I had a similar discussion recently with one of my Song Shaolin mates about the root essences of Wu Dang, Shaolin, Emei regarding similar training sets in each system. Thank you all for sharing knowledge and experience here.

Peace

[GeneChing]

Xing in xingyi (also Hsing Yi) = 形 (form, shape, appearance)

Xing in qixing = 星 (star)

@wiz cool c: Check out my new article: The 7 Star General of the Celestial Realm in our Shaolin Special 2012 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1036).

[RenDaHai]

Xing in xingyi (also Hsing Yi) = 形 (form, shape, appearance)

Xing in qixing = 星 (star)

@wiz cool c: Check out my new article: The 7 Star General of the Celestial Realm in our Shaolin Special 2012 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1036).

Indeed,

Above was just a small digression because Sal earlier in the thread drew parallels between Henan Xin (心) Yi and QiXing Quan technique wise.

Song Shan Shaolin although not easily comparable to Xing Yi (形意) like Wudang forms are, is however often technically very similar to the related Xin Yi (心意) Quan.

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqPiJBtChs

Can someone tell me where I do find this particular VCD ? I have found one site but to be honest I consider 39 dollars for a VCD a bit much.


Kind regards,
Xian

[SHemmati]

the stepping style of this form (Ji Xing bu) is an imitation of rooster, the small-frame stance of this style is an imitation of rooster and its name is also Ji Xing Bu (rooster stance) (some erroneously call it Qi Xing bu, while it is obviously a rooster walking stance and has nothing to do with the 7 star concept) and finally, the special hand gesture of this style is a rooster hand and is called Ji Zhao (rooster claw). on the other side, the special guarding configuration of the arms (one hand protecting near the opposite ear with the forearm crossing the chest, and the other arm straight down with hand near the knee) has a big dipper (7 stars) shape, and the stepping path in this form can fluently follow the placement of 7 stars poles (referring to the 7 poles of Qi Xing Zhuang, they have a -+- shape, i don't think it has any relevance to the big dipper). so, the style is a combination of both the 'ji xing' (rooster) and 'qi xing' (big dipper) shapes.

[bawang]

so isn't it really "Ji Xing (rooster) quan" and not "Qi Xing (7 star) quan"??

they are the same thing. just like hong quan is written differently.

[Kellen Bassette]

i see they do the version with the snapkick and slapkick at the very beginning....

btw, what is "enpi"? isnt that japanese for their elbow strikes? every "enpi" here has to do with an elbow.

interesting choice for translation.

I have this series and I've wondered that myself. They also frequently refer to the side kick as "washi geri" I assume they mean "mawashi geri" which is round house kick in Japanese...side kick would be yoko geri...not sure why they would use Japanese in a Mandarin/English translation...

[RenDaHai]

not only the stepping style (Ji Xing bu) is an imitation of rooster, but the small-frame stance of this style is an imitation of rooster and its name is also Ji Xing Bu (rooster stance) (some monks call it erroneously Qi Xing bu, while it is obviously a rooster standing stance and has nothing to do with the 7 star concept) and finally, the special hand gesture of this style is a rooster hand and is called Ji Zhao (rooster claw). while all these hand- and foot-works of this style imitate a rooster, among all of these only the stepping foot-path has some relation to the 7 star concept. so isn't it really "Ji Xing (rooster) quan" and not "Qi Xing (7 star) quan"??

There are different versions.

The one you are talking about with the small frame stance is XiaoJia QiXing, its a later variation on QiXing Quan, but it is the one everyone does now. It is LiuBaoShans line.

My QiXIng although the same sequence in names of techniques is actually very different. It doesn't use that stance but rather every move is the rooster step. Its a sweeping step but ends in dingzi bu. The hand also does not form the rooster claw, just an ordinary Gou shou (to the side, not front). The claw appears in Erlu QiXing.

Interestingly other people I have seen do XiaoJia QiXing independently of Liu Bao Shans line did it with a tiger claw.

I think it is supposed to be JiXing Quan, but saying this the QiXing of Mogou village is called QiXIng Quan and has some of the same moves but is seperated by more than 400 years (according to their history) So the name may have stood for a long time.

[bawang]

I think it is supposed to be JiXing Quan, but saying this the QiXing of Mogou village is called QiXIng Quan and has some of the same moves but is seperated by more than 400 years (according to their history) So the name may have stood for a long time.

qixing quan dates back 500 years. it means narrow fighting stance.

[Xian]

yes, Qi Xing quan (or Ji Xing quan, whatever you call it) is a narrow fighting style. but the name Qi Xing quan means 7 stars, which is irrelevant to this concept and doesn't mean anything related to narrow fighting.

I dont know much about Shaolin Quan but in Xiao Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Ying Zhao Pao Quan are all stances with are called Qi Xing and they are all narrow. Even If I currently do not understand how they relate to the stance in Qi Xing Quan.


Best regards,
Xian

[bawang]

yes, Qi Xing quan (or Ji Xing quan, whatever you call it) is a narrow fighting style. but the name Qi Xing quan means 7 stars, which is irrelevant to this concept and doesn't mean anything related to narrow fighting.

seven stars is narrow fighting stance.

[RenDaHai]

seven stars is narrow fighting stance.

That would make sense in relation to the form. The name is used in many styles as well, often in a similar way.


Typically in the other Shaolin forms QiXing is a specific technique.

The hands form a circle, one hand holds the other hand at the wrist. It assists the other hand in striking. When the hands are joined like this 7 joints (stars) are in alignment. Both wrists, elbows and shoulders, as well as the point on the spine about which the shoulder blades rotate (not a joint I know, but a point of bending). The assisting hand pushes the other hand. Although there are many variations, depending on the opponent. It is the same as a southern Kung Fu salute almost.

The technique is basically that both hands punch forewards, instead of one pulling back and one going foreward. But it is not quite a double punch as one hand is still in front. So you don't use a twisting of the waist as it is not necessary for power. Instead the rear leg uses 'Dai bu' adds a step, typically into gui bu or up to the other foot in ding bu, also Bing Bu is common. (Bing Bu is the standing up stance).

In this sense it 'narrows the stance' for power as opposed to twisting the waist like many other stances. So your definition works well.

[bawang]

In this sense it 'narrows the stance' for power as opposed to twisting the waist like many other stances. So your definition works well.

its not for power. its for punching the face. qixing boxing is easier on the knuckles. single whip for bodyshots.

[RenDaHai]

its not for power. its for punching the face. qixing boxing is easier on the knuckles. single whip for bodyshots.

In the high stances, but the groin or bladder in low stances. There are different types, another common variation is striking upwards with a back fist, Liao yin chui. Narrowing the stance also gives a lot of range. When the legs are together you can reach far.

[SHemmati]

...in Xiao Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Ying Zhao Pao Quan are all stances with are called Qi Xing and they are all narrow. Even If I currently do not understand how they relate to the stance in Qi Xing Quan.

seven stars is narrow fighting stance.
you mean this posture (this is the 7 star technique that RenDaHai describes):

http://i.imgur.com/gjekR.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ZP3Op.png

as Ren said, it is called Qi Xing (7 star) posture because of the arms posture which resembles the configuration of the 7 stars in Big dipper (the picture above). here, the stance can be Ding bu, Gui bu, Ma bu, etc, and it has absolutely no relevance the rooster stance of Qi Xing/Ji Xing quan. maybe bawang is referring to this posture too.



* i guess, maybe Qi Xing Tang Lang quan has been called Qi xing (7 star) because of the frequent use of this 7-star-like arms configuration:

http://i.imgur.com/jD16s.jpg

such arm posture is used with Gui bu, Ma Bu, Si Liu bu, etc, in different styles of Mantis kung fu, especially 7 star mantis.

[SHemmati]

the hand gesture of Qi Xing/Ji Xing quan is a rooster claw (Ji Zhao), imitating the big feathers at tip of the rooster's wings, and the stepping is rooster stance (Ji Xing bu), narrow legs, with one foot in front of the other! it has a small-frame body, because it is imitating a rooster:

http://i.imgur.com/AVwlT.png http://i.imgur.com/fIj2G.png

the left picture is the main posture of qi xing quan. it has the Qi Xing (big dipper) arms and Ji Xing (rooster) stance and claws mixed together to form the same posture.

[RenDaHai]

Its true that XiaoQiXing also refers to a stance e.g A XuBu where the hands are guarding, but one hand is resting by the elbow of the other. This also forms the 7 point structure.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KSyLpRohSCk/SaibuWgluKI/AAAAAAAAAP8/0lvJFIxPlt4/s200/xubu.jpg

[SHemmati]

Its true that XiaoQiXing also refers to a stance e.g A XuBu where the hands are guarding, but one hand is resting by the elbow of the other. This also forms the 7 point structure.
here the word QiXing only refers to the 7-star arm configuration. Xiao (small) is referring to the small-framed body, made by the low-level XuBu stance.

[bawang]

here the word QiXing only refers to the 7-star arm configuration. maybe Xiao (small) is referring to the small-framed body, which is caused by the low-level XuBu stance.

http://i.imgur.com/gjekR.jpg

and

http://i.imgur.com/AVwlT.png

are the same

can you understand that

[xiao yao]

I dont think seven star mantis is the oldest lineage of mantis

the seven star in seven star mantis refers to seven parts of the body linked together so the body moves as a single unit.

[SHemmati]

...

and

...

are the same
no no bawang, i think you haven't noticed the two pictures careful enough. in both the stances the right leg is in touch with the ground with whole its sole, it is in a stable position; the difference is that in the first stance, the left foot is in touch with the ground only with its toe and its heel is high off ground (the lifted off heel of the left foot is seen in the picture), while in the second stance, as is obviously seen, the left foot is also as stable as the right one and carries almost half the weight of the body. the first one is called Ding bu and the second one is Ji Xing (rooster or chicken) bu.

Ji Xing bu, like Ma bu and Gong bu, is a stable stance, i.e., you can hold it for a long time during a real fight, it is stable. But stances like Ding bu, Xue bu, and other stances in which a toe tip is touching the ground, or generally speaking, one leg does not carry a sensible portion of the body weight, are transient stances, which are highly unstable and unlike what is performed in the forms, they are not intended to be used as a stable stance. instead, the transient stances are used to transit the body from a situation to another. this can be highly effective when one wants to use almost whole his body weight in a forcing process.
here i give a clear example of this: in the first picture, since the 7-star arms are going to exert a heavy pushing force to the opponents body (mainly his trunk, in order to break his bones or at list uproot him by a great pushing force, of course this is only one application of 7-star arms), the best helping strategy is a Ding bu stance to form a transient position in which the whole body weight slips forward to be exerted on the opponents body. to produce such a huge force, the legs must not control the body weight, but must form a transient situation in which the body weight can shift forward as fluidly and swiftly as possible. (i hope my description is clear enough! :o)

[bawang]

no no bawang, i think you haven't noticed the two pictures careful enough. in both the stances the right leg is in touch with the ground with whole its sole, it is in a stable position; the difference is that in the first stance, the left foot is in touch with the ground only with its toe and its heel is high off ground (the lifted off heel of the left foot is seen in the picture), while in the second stance, as is obviously seen, the left foot is also as stable as the right one and carries almost half the weight of the body. the first one is called Ding bu and the second one is Ji Xing (rooster or chicken) bu.


shenmatti, salam, because you are not american i will explain this to you. many postures in shaolin kung fu called seven stars vary in appearance, because seven stars is a very very old concept about narrow fighting stance. there is difference because it has been hundreds of years.

traditional kung fu is taught as ideas, not shapes. shapes change but ideas stay the same.

[Kellen Bassette]

no no bawang, i think you haven't noticed the two pictures careful enough. in both the stances the right leg is in touch with the ground with whole its sole, it is in a stable position; the difference is that in the first stance, the left foot is in touch with the ground only with its toe and its heel is high off ground (the lifted off heel of the left foot is seen in the picture), while in the second stance, as is obviously seen, the left foot is also as stable as the right one and carries almost half the weight of the body. the first one is called Ding bu and the second one is Ji Xing (rooster or chicken) bu.

Ji Xing bu, like Ma bu and Gong bu, is a stable stance, i.e., you can hold it for a long time during a real fight, it is stable. But stances like Ding bu, Xue bu, and other stances in which a toe tip is touching the ground, or generally speaking, one leg does not carry a sensible portion of the body weight, are transient stances, which are highly unstable and unlike what is performed in the forms, they are not intended to be used as a stable stance. instead, the transient stances are used to transit the body from a situation to another. this can be highly effective when one wants to use almost whole his body weight in a forcing process.
here i give a clear example of this: in the first picture, since the 7-star arms are going to exert a heavy pushing force to the opponents body (mainly his trunk, in order to break his bones or at list uproot him by a great pushing force, of course this is only one application of 7-star arms), the best helping strategy is a Ding bu stance to form a transient position in which the whole body weight slips forward to be exerted on the opponents body. to produce such a huge force, the legs must not control the body weight, but must form a transient situation in which the body weight can shift forward as fluidly and swiftly as possible. (i hope my description is clear enough! :o)

When applying Kung Fu you shouldn't stand in any stance for a long time...all stances, with the exception of your natural fighting stance are transitory in nature.

[SHemmati]

traditional kung fu is taught as ideas, not shapes. shapes change but ideas stay the same.
a valuable concept.


When applying Kung Fu you shouldn't stand in any stance for a long time...all stances, with the exception of your natural fighting stance are transitory in nature.
i didn't mean that one stay in Gong bu or Ma bu during the whole time of a fight, though this is not impossible, this is what many boxers do, most of them hold Gong bu or Ma bu by putting one foot forward during whole their fights! a kung fu practitioner can also do so! but it would be ridiculous if somebody holds Ding bu in whole a fight!:D ding bu and xu bu must be used in transitions from one pose to another and i described an example of transition above.

[bawang]

but by which mean 7-star can be indicating narrow fighting? here i think it may've been mixed with Ji Xing concepts. yet i have to check out other 7-star named material.




do you have mental disease? why are you so obsessed with this? qixing quan is not even shaolin boxing.

[SHemmati]

hey bawang, you ok man?


qixing quan is not even shaolin boxing.
true and false. true because Qi Xing quan is not a system made purely by Shaolin moks, it has some concepts that have been adopted by them. like the Qi Xing concept, which originates from the astrologer circles of the ancient China, or the ji xing materials, which may have some inspiration directly taken form the non-Shaolin folk masters. however, you seem to mean qi xing as a general concept, while we are discussing it in strictly the case of Shaolin qi xing quan.

[B.Tunks]

I dont think seven star mantis is the oldest lineage of mantis

the seven star in seven star mantis refers to seven parts of the body linked together so the body moves as a single unit.

True. Before Qixing and Meihua there was just Tanglang.

[xiao yao]

exactly, and it didnt come from shaolin temple

[LFJ]

We have older sets in Songshan that use the same hand shape, but it's called diaoshou "hook hand" and not tanglangzhao "mantis claw".

[SHemmati]

as far as the 7-star concept is considered, Shi Deci's and Shi Deyang's lyrics in their videos are really relevant. they clearly name the 'small-frame 7-star' (qi xing xiao jia) postures in the form, and after reading them it becomes clear why this form is called 7-star quan. for the rooster-like lyrics, Shi Yongzhi's video is really relevant. those techniques are the majority of the form, and with a few change, the lyrics show the rooster-like materials throughout the form.

i try to gather and post those lyrics here. it sounds great to have all of them in one place in order to be compared.

[Xian]

Hm I will compare it, but isnt it about more than the lyrics one teacher gives?To be honest I dont believe anymore that any teacher gives the correct ones. So I think If one has no good teacher or even no teacherhe has to compare different ones to find the solution.

Through research I believe I found for myself that a combination of different versions comes closer to the original. I wasnt able to discover this to a satisfying point in Qi Xing but in other sets. Which makes me convinient to study more and somehow find a teacher here in Germany who is really able to teach the Shaolin Wugong. Or maybe in the future I can go to China. We will see.


Best regards,
Xian

[SHemmati]

Hm I will compare it, but isnt it about more than the lyrics one teacher gives?To be honest I dont believe anymore that any teacher gives the correct ones. So I think If one has no good teacher or even no teacherhe has to compare different ones to find the solution.

Through research I believe I found for myself that a combination of different versions comes closer to the original. I wasnt able to discover this to a satisfying point in Qi Xing but in other sets. Which makes me convinient to study more and somehow find a teacher here in Germany who is really able to teach the Shaolin Wugong. Or maybe in the future I can go to China. We will see.
of course they are not mere lyrics, they are the keys to understand, to comprehend the theories behind the names, behind the techniques, and many other thing that form our unsolved mysteries. of course one Shaolin teacher as a prototype, conveys the lyrics and methods of one lineage, i.e., one set of lyrics and one way of performance for each form. one way will, at most, decode for us one set of secrets. maybe the answers to many other secrets could be found in the other or another lineage. it is not only worth it, but for sure vital - specially for us as self-trainers - to ponder over different teachers' teachings.

and about Qi Xing Quan, you'll see how different lyrics decode the different aspects of the same form.

[SHemmati]

video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSGlJD3CbQc


lyrics:

1. Render a Salute
2. Take Stride and Clamp Hands
3. "Seven-star" Protects Knee
4. Raise Hand and Brush Knee, Rush Fist in Bow Stance
5. Brush Hand and Slash Fist in Horse-riding Stance
6. Hook Fist with Feet Together
7. Slash Fist in Horse-riding Stance
8. Bump with Elbow in Horse-riding Stance, Press Hand
9. Protect Shoulder and Press Hand, Snap Kick and "Seven-star"
10. Step Forward and Slap Foot, Turn Body to Form "Seven-star"
11. Hook Leg and Hold Palm 3 Times
12. Raise Elbow to Form "Seven-star"
13. Protect Shoulder and Press Hand, Snap Kick and "Seven-star"
14. Roll Body and Rush Fist 3 Times
15. Raise Elbow to Form "Seven-star"
16. Protect Shoulder and Press Hand, Snap Kick and "Seven-star"
17. Block with Palm in Horse-riding Stance
18. Bend Elbow with Feet Together
19. Outside Kick, Rush Fist in Right Bow Stance
20. Brush Hand, Slash Fist in Horse-riding Stance
21. Hook Fist with Feet Together
22. Slash Fist in Horse-riding Stance
23. Bump with Elbow in Horse-riding Stance, Press Hand
24. Protect Shoulder and Press Hand, Snap Kick and "Seven-star"
25. Jumping Front Kick, single Whip in Bow Stance
26. Withdraw Step to Form "Seven-star"
27. Rush Fist in Left and Right Bow Stance
28. Turn round and Lift Knee Support the Sky, "Seven-star" in Horse-riding Stance
29. Bring Feet Together and Press Palms Down
30. Will and Qi Return to Original Condition
---------

lyrics discussion: these lyrics make it clear why this form is called "Seven-star": because of the frequently used seven-star (big dipper) arm configuration. clearly it mentions seven-star in reference to to the arms configuration and doesn't care about the stance, whether it is Ji Xing/Qi Xing bu or Ma bu. notice that there are even more seven-star arms in the form, e.g., in lyric no.11, which refers to the hooking legs (known as rooster-like walking, but it's better to use this hooking legs name in a pure "Qi Xing" naming scheme), the arms form the same seven-star configuration as in lyric no.10, but it doesn't mention it. in general, this set of lyrics strongly remains on the Qi Xing (big-dipper-like) aspect of the form and doesn't mention any Ji Xing (rooster) aspect at all. in such a way, this form must definitely be called "Qi Xing Quan." (this is interesting however, because in Deyang's lineage that unique stance is called rooster stance (Ji Xing Bu)! i'd like there the name of that stance were mentioned in these lyrics to see what they are going to name it in such a "Qi Xing" dominated set of lyrics! by the way, in such a case, the natural choice is to prefer the name "Qi Xing" bu for that stance. because, it's one of the unique characteristics of a form which is going to be called "Qi Xing" quan, here one can even sufficiently convince himself with the description that this stance has a big-dipper-like shape with the hollow formed between the two consecutive shins resembling the closed part of the big dipper shape and the paralleled thighs resembling the tail.) OK! so far, we have sufficient reason to know why this form is called Qi Xing quan; there may even be more reasons as well.

[SHemmati]

video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYaeJYw9zo


lyrics:

Preparatory Posture
1. Shrink Body in Seven-star Stance
2. Lift Knee and Raise Hand
3. Guard Knee and Thrust Fist
4. Intercept with Fist in Horse Stance
5. Wrap Hand Inward
6. Intercept with Fist in Horse Stance
7. Bump with Elbow in Horse Stance
8. Press Hand in Bow Stance
9. Cross Snap Kick
10. Shrink Body in Seven-star Stance
11. Step Forward and Slap Foot
12. Left and Right "Chicken-walking" Step
13. Turn Body and Thrust Elbow
14. Shrink Body in Seven-star Stance
15. Cross Snap Kick
16. Shrink Body in Seven-star Stance
17. Roll Body and Punch 3 Times
18. Turn Body and Thrust Elbow
19. Shrink Body in Seven-star Stance
20. Cross Snap Kick
21. Shrink Body in Seven-star Stance
22. Ear-guarding Palm
23. Stamp Foot and Bend Elbow
24. Outward Crescent Kick
25. Thrust Fist in Bow Stance
26. Intercept with Fist in Horse Stance
27. Wrap Hand Inward
28. Strike with Elbow in Horse Stance
29. Press Hand in Bow Stance
30. Cross Snap Kick
31. Shrink Body in Seven-star Stance
32. Jumping Kick Twice
33. Thrust Cross Fists
34. Shrink Body in Seven-star Stance
35. Step Forward and Punch Twice
36. Scissors Hand in Horse Stance
37. "Seven-star" in Horse Stance
Closing Form
---------

lyrics discussion: except the last one, all the "Seven-star" names in the lyrics come from the name of that unique stance, which is called Qi Xing Bu here (maybe one has to convince himself with the description i gave in the De Yang lyrics discussion about this stance and how it could resemble the big dipper shape.) but the last one in lyric no.37 is the most interesting, it obviously refers to the arms' big-dipper-like configuration. so this set of lyrics names the arms configuration and the unique stance as Qi Xing, names the unique walking method as Ji Xing (rooster/chicken) bu, but names the unique hand gesture as Scissors hand. like the first set of lyrics that Gene has posted (Tagou's books lyrics) these lyrics have no special pure naming scheme. at least, those Tagou's lyrics indicate some application aspects, like defending and attacking the crotch, but these lyrics don't have even such an aspect! nothing interesting in general!

the next set i'm going to post is Shi Yong Zhi's lyrics. they seem to be as interesting as De Yang's lyrics! since as much as De Yang's lyrics were on the Qi Xing (Seven-star) side, the Yong Zhi's are, with some considerations, on the Ji Xing (Rooster) side!

[SHemmati]

video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlzwrayNwwo


lyrics:

Starting Movement
Shrinking Back with Rooster Claws
Punching Fist with an Arc Palm
Defending an Ear with a Palm
Feet-together and Stamping
Three Inch Punch
Crisscross Snapkick
Shrinking Back with Rooster Claws
Stamping one Foot in a Forward Step
Turning the Body and Rooster-walking
Left Rooster-walking
Right Rooster-walking
Left Rooster-walking
Turning Back and Elbow Butt
Shrinking Back with Rooster Claws
Crisscross Snapkick and Shrinking Back with Rooster Claws
Punching Fist 3 Times in a Forward Step
Turning Back and Elbow Butt
Shrinking Back with Rooster Claws and Crisscross Snapkick
Defending an Ear with a Palm
Stamping Foot and Hooking Elbow
Swaying one Foot and Punching Fist
Defending an Ear with a Palm
Three Inch Punch
Crisscross Snapkick and Shrinking Back with Rooster Claws
Jumping Slap Kick
Rushing Both Fists in a Forward Step
Shrinking Back with Rooster Claws
Punching Fists Twice in a Forward Step
Turning the Body with Rooster Claws in Horse Stance
The Finish
---------

lyrics discussion: in the video it uses the name Pliers-like hand for the hand gesture, but at time 20:09 (in Chinese)/21:14 (in English) of the video, in description of Walking Like a Rooster (Ji Xing Bu), he says that this hand gesture is like the Claw of a Rooster (Ji Zhao) and also says that the body should keep a firm half-squat frame, etc, to look like a rooster. so i replaced all the Pliers-like hand words in the lyrics with Rooster claw. considering these and that there's absolutely no mention of any Qi Xing (Seven-star)-named material in the lyrics, these lyrics put the emphasis on the Ji Xing (Rooster) aspect of the form. just it doesn't mention the name of the unique stance. of course it is better to call it Ji Xing bu in such a Ji-Xing-dominated naming scheme. and i've already given my pictorial justification in one of my previous comments on why this stance is a rooster imitating stance.

next, it may have some advantage if i take a look at Shi Deci's lyrics.

[SHemmati]

analyzing these lyrics gives rise to these results for the names Qi Xing and Ji Xing in the case of Qi Xing/Ji Xing quan:

Qi Xing (Seven-stars): here this name refers to anything resembling the big dipper (seven stars) shape (i posted a picture of big dipper in one of my previous comments). these materials could be the arms configuration, the stance, the walking path.
(about the walking path, though not referred to in the lyrics, the name Qi Xing in this form does not refer to the big dipper, but to the Seven-star Poles (Qi Xing Zhuang), with a -+- shape, which this form can be performed on instead of the ground.)

Ji Xing (Rooster): here this name refers to any material which is imitating a rooster. these materials could be the hand gesture, the stance, the walking method, the compact body and short-range movement style.

[Xian]

I think you are to much focused on that Qi Xing thing as a reference to a star constalation.
Seven Star also refer to Seven points to attack and to Defense.
Have a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2v8C33f1mw


Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Qi Xing (Seven-stars): this name refers to anything resembling the big dipper (seven stars) shape... ...the walking path.

People refer to that all the time, but the path of the set actually doesn't make the big dipper at all. :confused: It makes like an f shape.

[wenshu]

Its more like

-+-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-hCWEcPQ7g0#t=150s

[SHemmati]

I think you are to much focused on that Qi Xing thing as a reference to a star constellation.
Seven Star also refer to Seven points to attack and to Defense.
Have a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2v8C33f1mw
seven stars refers to many things. e.g., some fighting manuals recommend taking 7 parts of every opponent's body (hands, feet, elbows, knees, shoulders, pelvis, head) under consideration, they call it the 7 stars, and such stuff. however, the case of Qi Xing quan, as far as we can conclude from the lyrics, seems to be related to the big dipper shape. and, as another comment, such philosophical concepts like 7-stars, 8 diagrams, 6 harmonies, etc, are more made by Daoists and other Chinese sects. Shaolin rarely tends toward philosophical stuff in their kung fu.


People refer to that all the time, but the path of the set actually doesn't make the big dipper at all. :confused: It makes like an f shape.

Its more like

-+-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-hCWEcPQ7g0#t=150s
"the path follows the Seven-star pattern" means that the form can be done on the Seven-star poles (Qi Xing Zhuang), 7 poles, 5 forming a plus, and two of them at 2 sides of the plus, like -+-, as in the video. likewise there are also nine-star poles (Jiu Xing Zhuang), and so on.
however, the performer has to change some direction in the form to match it to the poles, the form in its original form, as LFJ said, follows an "f"-shape path.

[LFJ]

In that video his pubu following the jump slap kick went back on the original line, rather than stepping out to the left where there would have to be another stake (at the top of the figure f).

Facebook Quan!

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[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys,

Few things;

The above analysed QiXing Quans;

DeYang, YongZhi, DeJun.... These are all the same version of QiXIng QUan. SongShan does have several, but these three are all the same and they are all from one person recently.

I have a suspicion from things I've heard that DeYang actually knows a different QiXIng Quan, which might explain why its not him on the DVD. (I'm sure he knows this one as well but might not have wanted to cover it).

As to the Lyrics;

Ones like this ' Hook Leg and Hold Palm 3 Times' Is not really a good lyric, anyone could have made that up at any time.

The YongZhi lyrics are the best. I think he learned it directly from the person who passed this version on around the area.

The posture they refer to as 'seven star step' is only called this recently because of the popularity of the form QiXIng quan and the point that it rarely appears outside this form. It is named after the form as opposed to the other way around.

Actually the step is just Shu Shen (Shrink body) without any modifier like 'XuBu'. It is sometimes used in place of low bing bu, and sometimes called 'ShiBu' when used to replace 'XuBu'. It is also used in ShiSanZhua.

In the other QiXing quans (all of them) Ding bu is used in place of this posture.


In Xians Video the man is using 7 stars as an extension of 6 harmonies. This makes sense and is very similar to how I described it above with joints, except that he adds legs.

Shaolin theory is full of this; 2 extremes, 3 sections, 4 sensations, 5 elements, 6 harmonies, 7 stars, 8 directions, etc.

[wenshu]

In that video his pubu following the jump slap kick went back on the original line, rather than stepping out to the left where there would have to be another stake (at the top of the figure f).

oh I guess so

stupid form anyways

[Xian]

Thanks Ren for the explanation.Through studying this Qi Xing Set I got a question in my mind. Can the Qi Xing maybe also refer to the own body ? Because I have recognised a tremandous increase of strength in doing my forms since I practice the Qi Xing Quan.
So to get to the point Qi Xing can alsobe a reference for to strengthen this seven stars ?

By the way I know I put up another question but I think we are right now talking a little bit to much just abut a name, no offense guys.
:-P

Best regards,
Xian

[SHemmati]

these are two videos of a less popular version of Qi Xing quan. this version is the same as the Tagou's version (the one posted by Gene), and is claimed by them to be the more original version. it has a short sequence consisting of left snap kick, 7-star arms at small-frame body (Qi Xing Xiao Jia, aka rooster posture), left hand block, and a right slap kick between the Qi Xing Xiao Jia and the thrust fist in bow step at the very beginning of the form. there are other slight differences throughout the forms. for example, after the Ji Xing Bu (rooster style walking), there's a turn to the opposite side and Qi Xing Xiao Jia/rooster posture. after this turn, some move the right foot back to the left foot to form this Qi Xing Xiao Jia posture, while others move the left foot forward to near the right foot. now, in these rare versions, they have an additional transitional posture, stride tiger in bow step before the turn, just after the rooster-style walking. the ending posture, 7-star arms on horse stance, is a bit different in each of these videos as well:

Shaolin Qi Xing (7 Stars) quan- by Wang Zhanyang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20f62PEnfQE&list=PL8F75C68BF1246C2B)
Shaolin Qi Xing (7 Stars) quan- by Shi Deqi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqdCCvk_W2A&list=PL8F75C68BF1246C2B)