Are Isometrics a Part of Your Strength Training Exercises?

[rimam1]

I studied Shaolin Kung Fu in high school and most recently Wing Chun and have always heard that lifting weights is a bad idea for marital arts.

I've always done isometric exercises for strength training and purposely avoided weights. I found this video combining isometric strength training exercises (http://www.isometricexercisesite.com/isometric-exercises/how-to-turn-regular-exercises-into-isometric-exercises) with "regular" exercises and thought he put an interesting twist to traditional strength training exercises combined with isometric exercises.

Does anyone here do isometrics? Do you find them worthwhile for building strength?

[PlumDragon]

Funny; this same discussion is taking place elsewhere right now...

Simply put, supplementing your martial arts training with the proper strength training regimen is definitely *good* for your overall development as a martial artist.

Isometric exercises are something I would not recommend as part of your routine though; they tend to be good for testing output, but only work the body at the specific angles that the tension is being created at--not good for strength through your ROM, which is important in all the sports I can think of. Coincidentally, isometric exercises can also raise blood pressure so are definetily not good if you have blood pressure problems.

[GreenCloudCLF]

I studied Shaolin Kung Fu in high school and most recently Wing Chun and have always heard that lifting weights is a bad idea for marital arts.



My wife loves that I left weights. She loves my guns!:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I studied Shaolin Kung Fu in high school and most recently Wing Chun and have always heard that lifting weights is a bad idea for marital arts.

I've always done isometric exercises for strength training and purposely avoided weights. I found this video combining isometric strength training exercises (http://www.isometricexercisesite.com/isometric-exercises/how-to-turn-regular-exercises-into-isometric-exercises) with "regular" exercises and thought he put an interesting twist to traditional strength training exercises combined with isometric exercises.

Does anyone here do isometrics? Do you find them worthwhile for building strength?

Strength training and MA have always gone hand-in-hand, only recently have there been "issues" and typically form those that think that strength doesn't matter, ie: people that never fought someone that outweighed them by 50lbs or more.
There are many types of ST, bodybuilding type exercises are not ideal, unless you wanna bulk up.
Explosive Strength training is what would be done by MA, coupled with some "muscular endurance" type.
Static tension (isometrics) are great to train that maximum force in s specific range area since the tension is NOT moving over the range of motion but fixed at a given point.

[franco1688]

The first sifu I ever had claimed that weight training was a bad idea for martial artisits. In my youth I had a hard time believing it, but being the dedicated and obedient student I was at the time I listened (when you're young whatever your sifu tells you is gospel). When I got older I started fighting (some in the ring and some in the street) and I realized that strength (power) definitley has it's place in fighting as well as cardiovascular conditioning (I wasn't supposed to run either, I did this anyway because of wrestling). Sure techniques are great but all the techniques in the world don't mean jack if someone stronger than you knocks you out cold. If you're a forms competitor you may want to lay off the weights a little because you may not be as graceful and pretty with the extra bulk. But, in my opinion, strength training is not only beneficial to a fighter, but also to your body (stronger muscles and tendons, denser bones, etc.). To a martial artist balance is the key. If you are a martial artist, weight train as a martial artist and not as a bodybuilder. You want strong, explosive, enduring and functional muscles, not necessarily pretty ones. One quote that my instructor used to say is, "The one thing about bodybuilders is they sure do look pretty lying on the floor when you knock 'em out." --- As I was telling someone else, I know through experience that tension training exercises help strengthen the tendons (including all the little tendons and ligaments of the forearms and the hand), they increase endurance in the muscles trained, they build strength to a certain extent, and they help with muscular imbalances (because of pitting muscle against muscle). The thing that I have noticed from utilizing tension training and functional training, is that they help build that "Grandad strength." Remember that grandpa or uncle that you had that would crush your hand anytime he shook it or he could snatch you up with one hand although he never touched a weight?

[punchdrunk]

there is no reason to fear intelligent weight lifting used to increase your strength. There is ample proof in the real world for you to find out for yourself, look at combat athletes, look at body guards, military, bouncers, gang enforcers etc etc. Unless you build the outrageous size of a body builder pumping the iron won't slow you down. BTW you can't "accidentally" get that big either, it takes a specific diet, genetics, and drugs.
Isometrics are an inferior training method because they are position specific strength, for martial arts you want strength in motion. If you totally object to weights a lot of pure body weight excersises are really great, and they have the benefit of giving you strength in motion.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Strength training is definately something you need to do if you intend to use your fighting skills. Strength alone can carry you at times. I like to use weights, but I use light and medium weights with lots of motion and repetition. That and the isometric ( push-pull) exercises. They do not have to be fixed or whatever either. You can move your arms and body in every direction possible, and this can offer you some serious fitness if done regularly and with conviction. I use to do it a lot as I was not always to where I could use my weights. Stretching of the body and limbs is also very beneficial to fitness. Just stretching alone can get you into decent shape, but not really going to increase your over all strength. Just makes the muscles more efficient in using nutrients and oxygen. Obviously, arm strength is very important, but I consider mid section strength to be the most important. This is where your Qi and over all strength exudes from. I would do all the different exercises with push-pull and weights, then I would have a barbell loaded with hundreds of pounds that I would move from one location to another, back and forth until I couldn't. I would attempt to use my stomach when lifting so that it would be strengthened. I also did a tremendous amount of stretching. Unless you do make a living with or depend on your physical strength a great deal, it is not necessary for one to go through all this. You have to pretty much keep it up to maintain it, and as you get older, it is not so easy to do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Strength training is definately something you need to do if you intend to use your fighting skills. Strength alone can carry you at times. I like to use weights, but I use light and medium weights with lots of motion and repetition. That and the isometric ( push-pull) exercises. They do not have to be fixed or whatever either. You can move your arms and body in every direction possible, and this can offer you some serious fitness if done regularly and with conviction. I use to do it a lot as I was not always to where I could use my weights. Stretching of the body and limbs is also very beneficial to fitness. Just stretching alone can get you into decent shape, but not really going to increase your over all strength. Just makes the muscles more efficient in using nutrients and oxygen. Obviously, arm strength is very important, but I consider mid section strength to be the most important. This is where your Qi and over all strength exudes from. I would do all the different exercises with push-pull and weights, then I would have a barbell loaded with hundreds of pounds that I would move from one location to another, back and forth until I couldn't. I would attempt to use my stomach when lifting so that it would be strengthened. I also did a tremendous amount of stretching. Unless you do make a living with or depend on your physical strength a great deal, it is not necessary for one to go through all this. You have to pretty much keep it up to maintain it, and as you get older, it is not so easy to do.

Isometrics exercises do NOT move through the range of motion, those are isokinetic or "dynamic tension".
Isometrics are static.

[Mr Punch]

I studied Shaolin Kung Fu in high school and most recently Wing Chun and have always heard that lifting weights is a bad idea for marital arts.Nonsense. If you put weightlifting principles into your wing chun you'll confuse both disciplines and gain less and vice versa. There is some crossover, but providing you're not stupid and you recognise that the two disciplines are sufficiently different not to confuse them, your weightlifting should be nothing but beneficial to your martial arts. If they're not, you're doing something wrong. IME most sifus are not qualified strength coaches or sports science majors.


I've always done isometric exercises for strength training and purposely avoided weights.That may increase your static strength but will not increase your strength for any moving (martial) endeavours.


I found this video combining isometric strength training exercises (http://www.isometricexercisesite.com/isometric-exercises/how-to-turn-regular-exercises-into-isometric-exercises) with "regular" exercises and thought he put an interesting twist to traditional strength training exercises combined with isometric exercises.Interesting: as Sanjuro just pointed out, those are isokinetic exercises, not isometric.


Does anyone here do isometrics? Do you find them worthwhile for building strength?Yes. I also lift little and big weights, cycle and do yoga every day, and train pretty much every second I'm awake (eg, folding my washing yesterday, concentrating on sitting in hatha yoga 'easy pose' and breathing correctly; doing deep bodyweight squats and manji stepping whilst sweeping under the desks in my room at work; using shikou aikido knee walking while weeding the garden etc).

Always train. Never limit yourself to one kind of exercise.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Isometrics exercises do NOT move through the range of motion, those are isokinetic or "dynamic tension".
Isometrics are static.


I stand corrected. You are absolutely right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Isometrics exercises do NOT move through the range of motion, those are isokinetic or "dynamic tension".
Isometrics are static.


I stand corrected. You are absolutely right.

Its a common mistake, even many professional trainers make it.

[IronFist]

Search my posts in this forum. I have written 1000s of posts on this very subject in this forum. Normally I'd write a long post but it's late and I'm tired.

Cliffs Notes:

- Most traditional martial artists are the last people you want to be taking weight training advice from. Almost all their "ideas" about the cons of weightlifting are physiologically and anatomically incorrect.

- Weight training is fantastic for martial artists; you can train in a variety of ways depending on your goals - you can put on size if you want, OR you can get very strong without adding any weight at all (think lightweight powerlifters... 120 pound girls benching 400 pounds... they're not big at all, but they're stronger than you)

- weight lifting doesn't make you inflexible

- weight lifting doesn't make you slow

- weight lifting done properly will probably benefit your health as you age for more reasons than i can list here

- isometrics and dynamic tension exercises have their place in a workout program, but i wouldn't worry about them. you will get more results from a month or two of weight lifting than you will from a year of isometric training.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

in jiujitsu, i didn't do all that well on the matt until i started getting strong. im a stickler for propper technique, and i worked hard on it, but being the only lightweight in a school full of 200lb plus guys wasn't easy. getting stronger than these guys gave me a fighting chance. i didn't tap out guys who outweighed me by nearly 100lbs on the regular, but i made it much more difficult to tap me. when i finally got to roll with guys my own size i did really well.

[IronFist]

I lift weights on cybrex equipment. There plated machines I work on the chest press incline, shoulder press, triceps pull down, back row, lat pull, bicep curl, back extension, abdominal crunch, leg extension, leg press, leg curl. I lift for not martial art gains but physical strength, fat loss with cardio added in with lifting. I have been thinking of isometrics of incorporating them in. I would want martial art specific isometric exercises. Could the believers recommend the isometric must for martial art gains?

You will not really gain anything from isometrics. And any small gains you do get from them will be inefficient relative to the amount of time you spent training for them.

[David Jamieson]

You will not really gain anything from isometrics. And any small gains you do get from them will be inefficient relative to the amount of time you spent training for them.

you refine tensile strength in musculature with isotonics and isometrics. this is very beneficial in tandem with lifting weight and you will find that you pull muscles less often and are less likely to develop tendonitis from lifting which does unfortunately happen.

there is nothing wrong with lifting weight to gain strength even if you do martial arts.

just do things correctly. get a trainer if you need one or buy some dvd's that have a pro pt going through the routines. no need to reinvent the wheel.

mixing your routines is overall important too. cardio, then lifting, then body work, then plyo, and so on and so forth.

You will benefit the most from more different exercises for your body to do.
If you keep changing up teh routine, but maintaining total body work, you will likely not plateau for a very long time and benefit quite a lot.

no one thing will get you the furthest. mix it up, write it down, keep going.

[IronFist]

all i'm saying is, assuming equal amounts of time were spent on weightlifting or other stuff and on isometric training, 95% of the progress would come from the other stuff and 5% of the progress would come from the isometrics, hence it is an inefficient use of training time.

They have their place, but they're not really useful in a general workout for most people.


you refine tensile strength in musculature with isotonics and isometrics. this is very beneficial in tandem with lifting weight and you will find that you pull muscles less often and are less likely to develop tendonitis from lifting which does unfortunately happen.

Link to studies suggesting that people who do weightlifting and isometrics experience fewer incidences of pulled muscles and/or tendonitis than people who do weightlifting alone?

[David Jamieson]

all i'm saying is, assuming equal amounts of time were spent on weightlifting or other stuff and on isometric training, 95% of the progress would come from the other stuff and 5% of the progress would come from the isometrics, hence it is an inefficient use of training time.

They have their place, but they're not really useful in a general workout for most people.



Link to studies suggesting that people who do weightlifting and isometrics experience fewer incidences of pulled muscles and/or tendonitis than people who do weightlifting alone?

some will take you to medical journals that are pay sites, but the info is out there.

google "isotonics and how it develops tensile strength in muscles" to get started.

[Mr Punch]

all i'm saying is, assuming equal amounts of time were spent on weightlifting or other stuff and on isometric training, 95% of the progress would come from the other stuff and 5% of the progress would come from the isometrics, hence it is an inefficient use of training time.Links to studies supporting this somewhat arbitrary-looking work-time statement?!

And I don't know for sure, but off the top of my head I would say that isometrics are beneficial for:

a) rehab
b) flexibility
c) muscular endurance AND positional specifics esp in beginners.

A) Most of the physio exercises I've been given for acute rehabbing have been isometrics... I guess for safely rebuilding stabiliser muscles and connective tissue.

B) Whether it's yoga or Pavel's/Thomas Kurz's protocols, they all make extensive use of isometrics, even if it's pushing through/relaxing a greater ROM than usual.

C) Depends on your sport, but many many sports have a 'stand before you can walk' idea of learning a basic static posture before you put them together in motion. My pro tennis coach used to have us standing on the baseline, and then he'd have us throwing the ball up and getting in a ready to hit position while letting it drop, and then he'd have doing the first active exercises by having us swinging past the ball... admittedly only in the first couple of days of training and as a very small part of the warm-up in the next few weeks, but still. I've seen people coaching golf using the starting positions and the finishing positions of a swing before too.

[Mr Punch]

BTW, I think your 'assuming equal time is spent' statement is a bit daft! Nobody' is assuming that we should spend equal time on isometrics as say, weightlifting, but some time may be reasonable.

[Mr Punch]

Just found this (http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/14/v5combat-14.pdf) which is a highly inconclusive bit of study showing a correlation that seems to be outside of what they set for their own definitions in the title/abstract (!)... but it did point out something I'd not really thought of this time round, which is that in wrestling and other grappling arts, holding positional is a completely isometric action.

[IronFist]

I didn't think we were talking rehab in this thread. Isometrics may play a role in rehab; I'm not too familiar with that. As I have a habit of coming to KFM late at night when I should be in bed, I may have misread the thread.

I will admit they can be useful in stretching, too, for example how Pavel recommends it in "Relax Into Stretch."

I jumped into this thread because when I see "isometrics" mentioned on a martial arts forum, it's almost always someone saying "my sifu says weightlifting is bad cuz it makes you big and slow but isometrics are good cuz Bruce Lee did them." :rolleyes: Which is why my #1 rule is "never take exercise advice from a martial artist."

Anyway, isometrics don't provide any external force against the muscle, much less increasing external force, and therefore you won't really generate any strength gains from doing them (other than possible some "newbie gains").

In other words, someone who does DB curls will get stronger biceps over time, but someone who does isometric curls won't really make as much progress because there was never an external load against which their muscle was contracting.

As for developing endurance, yeah, if your goal is to be able to hold a contraction for longer periods of time, then yes, isometrics can definitely help with that since that is essentially what you are doing. In fact, isometrics are probably superior to weightlifting in this case.

[Mr Punch]

You and your **** sticking to the subject of the thread...!

Fair enough.

[SteveLau]

To answer the question of the topic, yes isometrics is a part of my strength training exercises. But only a very small part. IMOH, isometrics, dynamic tension, concentric, and eccentric exercises all have their place in good strength training program. As long as we do the right volume of each, and also the total exercise volume.

P.S. I think doing isometrics will help to raise our lactic acid excretion threshold in specific of endurance training.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong