Need Linguistc Help

[Royal Dragon]

Question for Chinese speakers,

in the words Tai, Kit, and Kune, what might the word "Kit" mean?

Is this a Mandarin, Cantonese or Hakka word?

The Translation, I am told is "Grand Snake Fist", but I am not sure that is right.

[LFJ]

it is cantonese for 太极拳

cantonese: taai-gihk-kyùhn
mandarin: tàijíquán

太 (taai, tài) = very, too, much, big, extreme, etc..
极 (gihk, jí) = extreme, utmost, ultimate, furthest, etc..
拳 (kyùhn, quán) = fist, (form of) boxing.

"taiji boxing", the form of boxing based on the taiji symbol.

[LFJ]

Question for Chinese speakers,

in the words Tai, Kit, and Kune, what might the word "Kit" mean?

Is this a Mandarin, Cantonese or Hakka word?

The Translation, I am told is "Grand Snake Fist", but I am not sure that is right.

snake is 蛇.

mandarin: shé
cantonese: sèh
hakkanese: sa

there is no "kit" in mandarin, and no "kit" means snake in cantonese or hakkanese.

however, "kit" is hakkanese for 极 as posted above in "taijiquan", but kyùhn in cantonese is more like "kien" (almost like "can" with a "y", "kyan") in hakkanese (dont know how to romanize hakkanese).

so i'm going to stick with it being cantonese for 太极拳 (canto.: taai-gihk-kyùhn, mand.: tàijíquán, hakka.: tai-kit-kien), just with improper romanization.. and apparently, translation.

hard to be certain without a character. :)

[Royal Dragon]

So Tai Kit Kune is Hakka for Tai Chi Quan?

[Royal Dragon]

Here is a web site that teaches the style, can you guys read the Symbols?

http://www.cobrakai-kungfu.net/Grandmaster.html

[LFJ]

well, since "kune" is the pronunciation of 拳 in cantonese, properly romanized in the yale system as kyùhn, i'm going to assume its cantonese rather than hakkanese, because 拳 in hakkanese is pronounce kien (closer to "can", rather than "coon").

because kune is improperly romanized, i would assume that "kit" is also an improper romanization of 极 in cantonese, which should be gihk, and not hakkanese. otherwise they wouldnt write "kune" with that "oo" sound if it were hakkanese.

basically, as far as i can estimate, it is cantonese for 太极拳.

mandarin: (hanyu pinyin) tàijíquán, (wade-giles) t'ai4 chi2 ch'üan2
cantonese: (yale) taai-gihk-kyùhn, (jyutping) taai3 gik6 kyun4
hakkanese: tai kit kien

no idea where a translation of "snake" could come from. would be quickly solved if we had a character.

[LFJ]

Here is a web site that teaches the style, can you guys read the Symbols?

http://www.cobrakai-kungfu.net/Grandmaster.html

yes, the characters are 蛇形拳, "snake-shaped boxing". 蛇形 means coiled like a snake, in snake form.

however, there is no "tai" and no "kit";

mandarin: shéxíngquán
cantonese: sèh-yìhng-kyùhn

[Pk_StyLeZ]

Here is a web site that teaches the style, can you guys read the Symbols?

http://www.cobrakai-kungfu.net/Grandmaster.html

i have no idea how he get tai kit to ground snake or grand snake or wutever snake
lol....
sound bogus

[LFJ]

http://www.cobrakai-kungfu.net/Class_Schedule.html

:eek:

[Royal Dragon]

Why are you shocked at the class schedule?

[Royal Dragon]

In "Cobra Kai", could the "Kai" be the same a Pai, like family?

[Royal Dragon]

This is another of thier schools.

Does anyone see anything that can be made sense of?

[Royal Dragon]

It says the style was created by Cheung Sam Fung in 206 BC? Is that Cantonese for Chang Zhang Feng, fabled founder of taijiquan?

[tattooedmonk]

Tai Chi Chuan/ Tai Ji Quan ,could it be they call it Grand Snake Style and have left out the Crane aspect??? That is if you believe that Tai Chi was based on the fight between the snake and crane.......

[LFJ]

Why are you shocked at the class schedule?

because of the ratio of total training time to monthly price. its a bit steep.


In "Cobra Kai", could the "Kai" be the same a Pai, like family?

not if they are sticking with chinese dialects. its basically the same in cantonese; pāai. (mandarin: pài)


It says the style was created by Cheung Sam Fung in 206 BC? Is that Cantonese for Chang Zhang Feng, fabled founder of taijiquan?

you mean zhang sanfeng? thats what it appears to be, which fits with the "tai kit kune" actually being an improper romanization of taijiquan in cantonese. but that date would be off.


Tai Chi Chuan/ Tai Ji Quan ,could it be they call it Grand Snake Style and have left out the Crane aspect??? That is if you believe that Tai Chi was based on the fight between the snake and crane.......

if they are going with the fabled founder of taijiquan, zhang sanfeng, then possibly.

as far as i can tell, their "tai kit kune" is an attempt to transliterate taijiquan in cantonese.

and the founder as "cheung sam fung" is an attempt to transliterate zhang sanfeng's name in cantonese.

and......

"cobra kai", i thought was the name of the dojo in the movie "karate kid"....

[Royal Dragon]

If I remember thier style correctly, it is about as far from Tai Chi as Hakka arts are.

Yes, this is the school that the Karate kid's Cobra Kai was modeled after. They tried to sue the movie studios for using thier name and everything.

I was a student at this school back in the early, to mid 90's


I am trying to figure out what it is they are actually doing. It sure was not Tai Chi. I remember the hands seemed snaky in action. It was an aggressive, violent style with many hard strikes, and then throws similar to Shui Jiao.

Given the Triangle in thier symbol, I am starting to wonder if this is some sort of Silat style that was in Hong Kong. either that, or an obscour Cantonese snake style.

It was also openly mixed with military hand to hand, and military boot camp conditioning.

[LFJ]

Yes, this is the school that the Karate kid's Cobra Kai was modeled after. They tried to sue the movie studios for using thier name and everything.

and that didnt work out in their favor?

whatever they do, it appears their chinese language and history facts are a not quite in line with, at least, what they say in english.

perhaps you could email them and ask for the characters?

[Royal Dragon]

They ran out of money, and were forced to drop the suite. Hollywood had much deeper pockets than a Kung Fu master did.

The characters are on thier website. I believe you already said they say Snake Shape Boxing.

I am starting to think this is a language barrier issue. I think going back, and seeing if I can get them to show me the style may be the only answer.

The only major problem, is I don't think Grandmaster Abbate taught the forms from the system. He was a hard core fighter and never seemed to actually care about them at all. I never saw one form taught there, and i have spoken to people who have known him for decades, and they have only heard rummurs of him doing a form demo on the rarest of occasions at best.

[LFJ]

The characters are on thier website. I believe you already said they say Snake Shape Boxing.

yes, but those characters are shéxíngquán in mandarin, and sèh-yìhng-kyùhn in cantonese.

the language barrier is this;

there are no characters for "tai kit kuen", which i think is a fairly obvious romanization for 太极拳 (tàijíquán) in cantonese, taai-gihk-kyùhn.

which is only strengthened by them saying the creator of "tai kit kuen" is "cheung sam fung", which is also an obvious romanization for 张三丰 zhang sanfeng's name in cantonese, which should be jēung sāam-fūng in the yale romanization.

however, they translate "tai kit kuen" as "grand snake fist". i see no way that this could be possible, as there is no "kit" in cantonese or hakkanese that means snake.

again, what they practice may be one thing, but "tai kit kuen" is obviously taijiquan in cantonese, and the founder "cheung sam fung" is obviously zhang sanfeng in cantonese.

[Royal Dragon]

I can remember talking to Abbate when he was alive, in 2002-03 maybe? I kept referring to him as "Sifu" because he had been my teacher for almost a year at one point. After a while, he corrected me, and informed me he was not a Sifu anymore, and had been promoted to a Sigung. He then told me he had not been a "Sifu" for several years (Keep in mind, he was surrounded by his students at the time).

I was going to explain the error, but then decided not to, because I didn't think he'd get it. He grew up in a era dominated by Japanese rank obsessions, and I don't think he knew the Chinese arts are not traditionally like that. I could see he thought that Sifu, was a rank title, rather than just the Chinese word for teacher.

I suspect this is at the core of the unusual translations I am seeing.

[Royal Dragon]

yes, but those characters are shéxíngquán in mandarin, and sèh-yìhng-kyùhn in cantonese.

the language barrier is this;

there are no characters for "tai kit kuen", which i think is a fairly obvious romanization for 太极拳 (tàijíquán) in cantonese, taai-gihk-kyùhn.

which is only strengthened by them saying the creator of "tai kit kuen" is "cheung sam fung", which is also an obvious romanization for 张三丰 zhang sanfeng's name in cantonese, which should be jēung sāam-fūng in the yale romanization.

however, they translate "tai kit kuen" as "grand snake fist". i see no way that this could be possible, as there is no "kit" in cantonese or hakkanese that means snake.

again, what they practice may be one thing, but "tai kit kuen" is obviously taijiquan in cantonese, and the founder "cheung sam fung" is obviously zhang sanfeng in cantonese.

Reply]
Well, that is the mystery, isn't it? I was suspecting this before, but I needed a real Chinese speaker, and writer to verify my suspicion. Now that it is, I need to do some digging to see what is what.

One possibility is that Abbate's teacher knew some sort of Tai Chi system, and he some how thought that it was the translation for the Snake style. If he didn't understand the whole Sifu/sigung thing, there was clearly a language barrier, so this is highly likely (although he was long time freinds with, and a student of John Tsai, who is a Taiwan native speaker, and also speaks English).

I have to see if they have any Tai Chi in thier curriculem, and if so, what style it may be.

His teacher supposedly came from Hong Kong, so it could be anything. Heck, Tai Kit Kune in this case may be referring to his teacher's OPINION of his style, and not to actual Tai Chi.

[Royal Dragon]

As for the rates, that is pretty typical for Kung Fu schools in the Chicago area.

[LFJ]

right, its kind of odd how they would end up with "taijiquan and zhang sanfeng" referring to a completely different style.

the characters meaning snake-shape boxing at least point to a snake style.

but the translation of "tai kit" as "grand snake" is interesting, because the first character "tai" (太) in taijiquan (太极拳) can in fact mean "grand", pointing to the fact that they understood at least that much of it.

a style called "grand snake boxing" would be 太蛇拳; mandarin: tàishéquán, cantonese: taai-sèh-kyùhn.

but i've never heard of such a thing.

[Royal Dragon]

I am guessing his teacher was embellishing a bit, marketing by saying his snake is the *Grand Ultimate Fist*, kind of like how every teacher claims thier style is best.

Who knows really. I need to sit down with them, and see if they might be open to talk to me....if they even know themselves.

[Royal Dragon]

What kinds of Snake styles would have been in Hong Kong back in the 1950's, and 1960's?

I am also wondering if he learned it in the military, and maybe it is a Vietnamese art?

The story as I remember it, is he started learning in Chicago's China town before he joined the Marines.

He then continued his training under a Sgt walker, who was his Senior under his teacher, while he was in the Military.

Sgt walker went MIA, and was either never found, or his body was recovered, I don't remember which, so Abbate traveled to Hong Kong to continue study under his teacher, who had returned home by that time.

Given the era, this is entirely plausible to me, and since he was learning from one of his teacher's seniors, a language incompatibility would have been exaggerated, especially if Sgt Walker had been a Japanese stylist prior to learning the Snake style.

I know they were Stationed in Hawaii for a period, so that leaves all sorts of openings for speculation.

[monkey mind]

the characters meaning snake-shape boxing at least point to a snake style.


Could it be that these characters were chosen more to match the name Cobra Kai than to refer to a traditional style of CMA? As a karateka, the 'kai' in this context sure sounds to me like Japanese for 'association', as in Wado Kai.

[Royal Dragon]

It's possible, however, I don't remember enough about the style to comment if it was Japanese oriented or not.

I do remember this though, they didn't do Japanese style break falls. What they did was more like the Shui Jiao I was learning(for a short time) years later.

[jdhowland]

In "Cobra Kai", could the "Kai" be the same a Pai, like family?

Almost. The Japanese prefer the term ryu to refer to a branch, school or sect. Paai, pronounced "ha" in Japanese, also exists, but tends to indicate a sub-sect or smaller division of a school.

Kai is the same kanji/hanjih as hui or wui: an assembly, association or society.

jd

[Royal Dragon]

Almost. The Japanese prefer the term ryu to refer to a branch, school or sect. Paai, pronounced "ha" in Japanese, also exists, but tends to indicate a sub-sect or smaller division of a school.

Kai is the same kanji/hanjih as hui or wui: an assembly, association or society.

jd

Is Kai a possible Hakka, or other Southeast Asian term?

It seems he spent some time learning from someone while in the military (and older brother of his line, after time with his original teacher), and stationed in Hawaii. I am wondering if the style may actually be some sort of east Asian style, and not actually Chinese.

[GeneChing]

‘Shaolin’ is Chinese word most understood by foreigners, survey says (https://gbtimes.com/shaolin-is-chinese-word-most-understood-by-foreigners-survey-says)
by Catherine Jessup Feb 19, 2018 17:25 CHINA INTERNET MEDIA

https://static.gbtimes.com/uploads/old/2017/07/13/shaolin_monks_worship_henan_china.jpg
Hundreds of Shaolin monks hold prayer on a river bridge in Henan Province. China News Service

A new study has revealed which Chinese words are most used and understood by people in English-speaking countries, with 'shaolin', 'yin yang' and 'yuan' topping the list.

The report (http://guoqing.china.com.cn/2018-02/19/content_50564483.htm), created by government body China Foreign Languages Publishing Administration, surveyed people in 8 major English-speaking countries on which Chinese words they knew. They also examined the content of over 300 articles on English-language news platforms for Chinese words written in pinyin form.

They found that overall, usage and understanding of Chinese-language words written in pinyin has been on the up over the last two years.

The words on everyone’s lips

Martial arts got the upper hand on the top 100 list of commonly used words. The number one spot went to 'shaolin', a word referring to one of the world’s oldest and largest kung fu disclipines and a Buddhist monastery widely known for its martial arts training. Two other martial art forms, wushu and qigong, followed suit at number 6 and 8 respectively.

Many English speakers seem to have Chinese philosophy on their minds: ‘yin yang’ was the second most commonly known word according to the survey. They were also aware of ‘qi’, the concept of a vital force present in all living things, which underpins precepts of martial arts and Chinese medicine.

On a less spiritual note, the survey made clear that money talks: ‘yuan’ took the number 3 spot, while ‘renminbi’ was the ninth most used and understood Chinese word in English.

Understanding of Chinese social issues is also growing, if the inclusion of the word ‘hukou’ - the household registration system which determines where in China citizens are entitled to claim basic rights including healthcare and education - is anything to go by.

The top 100 also featured several words that could be filed under the category of ‘Only in China’: ‘laowai’ (a nickname for foreigners), ‘guanxi’ (socially and professionally useful connections) and ‘hongbao’ (red envelopes filled with cash gifted during Chinese New Year).

:eek:
:cool:

Thread: Learning Mandarin (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?37972-Learning-Mandarin)
Thread: Need Linguistc Help (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?54060-Need-Linguistc-Help)

[GeneChing]

'Shaolin' the most well-known Chinese word overseas (http://www.china.org.cn/china/2018-02/26/content_50606311.htm)
China Plus, February 26, 2018

"Shaolin" is the most popular Chinese words for people from eight English-speaking countries, according to a survey released by China International Publishing Group (CIPG).

http://images.china.cn/site1007/2018-02/26/05a4f1bf-555e-4ac8-8de5-a9a5ae99b806.jpg
A monk performs Shaolin Kungfu on a street of Rome, Italy. [File photo: Xinhua]

According to the report at cankaoxiaoxi.com, among the top 100 Chinese words, over 40 percent relate to traditional Chinese culture, such as Wushu, a type of martial arts, Qigong, and Yin-Yang.

"Dumpling" is the most well-known Chinese food for people from the English speaking countries surveyed, with "jiaozi" even appearing in the latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary.

Chunjie, the Chinese word for Spring Festival, was the number one Chinese word searched online by people outside China. Other words related to Spring Festival also caught the attention of foreign netizens. These words include Hongbao, the red envelopes stuffed with cash given as gifts during the holiday, Chunyun, the Spring Festival holiday travel rush, and Chunwan, the Spring Festival gala.

Interesting that jiaozi made the OED. I suspect none of my non-Chinese non-Kung Fu friends know that word.


And the most popular Chinese term overseas is ... (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2134768/and-most-popular-chinese-term-overseas)
Martial arts references take out four of the top 10 spots in publisher’s survey
PUBLISHED : Monday, 26 February, 2018, 6:25pm
UPDATED : Monday, 26 February, 2018, 6:56pm
Yujing Liu

https://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/980x551/public/images/methode/2018/02/26/9b5f7102-1abf-11e8-804d-87987865af94_1280x720_185653.JPG?itok=UHZ785Yh

“Shaolin”, the name of a branch of martial arts, is the most popular Chinese term abroad, according to a survey by a Chinese publishing group.

Shaolin was followed by “yin yang”, “yuan”, “the Forbidden City” and “ni hao” (hello), the China Foreign Languages Publishing Administration said on February 17.

Chinese supermodel Liu Wen slammed on Instagram for referring to ‘Lunar New Year’

The administration said it analysed mainstream media reports and polled 1,260 people online in eight countries to assess the use and recognition of 150 Chinese terms.

The eight countries were the United States, Britain, Australia, the Philippines, South Africa, Canada, Singapore and India.

https://cdn4.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/images/methode/2018/02/26/bad7e8ac-1abf-11e8-804d-87987865af94_1320x770_185653.JPG
“Mahjong” was number 10 in the publisher’s survey. Photo: Xinhua

Apart from shaolin, three other Chinese martial arts terms made the top 10: “wushu” (martial arts), “qi” (essential force), and “qigong” (tai chi-like exercises).

“The wide distribution of martial arts-related terms is due to a specific form of communication – films,” the administration said.

It said the internationalisation of China’s currency explained the popularity of “yuan” and “renminbi”, which was ninth.

The tenth most popular Chinese term was “mahjong”.

Thread: Learning Mandarin (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?37972-Learning-Mandarin)
Thread: Need Linguistc Help (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?54060-Need-Linguistc-Help)