question about siu nim tao

[Thomas316]

hello hello everyone,

someone on this forum mentioned that siu num tao is used for chi cultivation. does this mean siu nim tao is a qigong form? please explain in detail so ill understand. thank you.

[anerlich]

Opinions vary.

Mine is that there are better and more targeted qigong exercises.

[AdrianK]

^
Agreed.

Thats not to say you can't learn and incorporate, though.

[Thomas316]

does practicing siu nim tao alone actually develop chi? or is siu nim tao used to improve or enhance chi work after chi itself is developed through other qi gong exercises? again, please explain in detail.

[Mr Punch]

You're asking the impossible. If you believe in chi and your teacher teaches you SLT as a chi kung I'm sure it's enough, depending on what purpose your teacher defines its chi movement as being for.

[-木叶-]

does practicing siu nim tao alone actually develop chi? or is siu nim tao used to improve or enhance chi work after chi itself is developed through other qi gong exercises? again, please explain in detail.

Siu Nim Tao is the first form of Wing Chun, it is primarily for training the most fundamental and important concepts of wing chun.

During practice and training, your breathing will cultivate the qi within you.
Correct breathing methods will increase oxygen intake, increase lung capacity, in return increase the efficiency and robustness of your bodily functions, making you less easy to wear out, "lasting power".

This is why from a scientific point of view, practicing Wing Chun also makes one more healthy.

Therefore it is very important to practice Siu Nim Tao once a day. For me i practice it definitely once before any training, and once to end any training.

Hope this little knowledge i have helps.

[Hendrik]

long story and most doesnt know or doesnt want to know but think they know.

also, most want to be expert of either defend it or agaisnt it.


What is it? how can one know what is it if one have never seen one or meet one or eat one or attain one or practice one?

[Hendrik]

You're asking the impossible. If you believe in chi and your teacher teaches you SLT as a chi kung I'm sure it's enough, depending on what purpose your teacher defines its chi movement as being for.

IMHO,

it is not impossible. in fact it is very clear. but most refuse and against it for all kind of reason or for the reason of to against.

[Phil Redmond]

I do a "martial" art for it's "martial" methods. I can get my spiritual fix elsewhere. To me SLT is the home keys for fighting.

[Hendrik]

I do a "martial" art for it's "martial" methods. I can get my spiritual fix elsewhere. To me SLT is the home keys for fighting.

it is not todo with spiritual it is on a lost technology.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The sil lim form is just the first of the forms in the first stages of your WC training. You develop your stance, foot spacing, and your hand fighting techniques. You practice them in a way that you can become fluid with both hands equally, and you develop the proper applications of said techniques by being able to go from one to the next and do them efficiently. When I was first learning, I would do this form several times in the morning and several times in the evening, and several times in between. First would be very slow and methodical. This was to develop accuracy in application. Then faster and faster each time, but not any faster than I could maintain my complete accuracy in application. I don't think you are going to be able to develop chi during this time. That comes with later. And chi is not some mystical power that you can summon like the force.
This form is done in a way that you learn to root from a neutral YGKYM stance, which can be shifted from one side to the next. And you can alter this form in any way you wish if it will help develop a particular skill that is lacking in some way. It's name implies that you use a little bit of imagination here.

[Hendrik]

Ok,

I am in the mood to stir things up.


OK,

I am partitioning them a few different section from mind to body to qi....etc.


This is the first step into the journey of SNT/SLT. since it is real fighing stuffs then it is about preparing for life and death, so might as well get to the root.


1, the mind platform.


What is Siu Nim Tau means in the mind platform?

View the following two clips


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ9S4lpDdUU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0tLVQLSlsE&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NovDybLo9yo&NR=1


From these clips.

make sure you know why is it called Siu Nim Tau or think - less.

and

make sure you know Silence is not Sitting in meditation or reside in not action at all or shutdown everything.


make sure you know the different between what the common logic and the path the ancient SLT practitioner take. missing this basic will throw one 1000 miles off. one will never enter the door of SLT/SNT if the path is off.



So, the core of the SLT/SNT is to let go of what one attached instead of attached to wanting to achive or making something. That is silence. Let go and Trust forward. The core of the core and enter into AWARENESS.

get this straight before step into SLT/SNT journey. You need this platform for the body and Qi.


Thus, it is called Siu Niem Tau because the more one train the less one raises the consciouos mind.

[Hendrik]

2, Physical platform


LET THE FOUR ELEMENTS GO, DO NOT GRASP AT THEM.
THE NATURE OF STILL QUIESCENCE ACCORDS WITH DRINKING AND EATING.
ALL ACTIVITIES ARE IMPERMANENT; EVERYTHING IS EMPTY.
THAT IS THE GREAT AND PERFECT ENLIGHTENMENT OF THE TATAGATHA. ---Song of Enligthement.


The principle of mind realm is Let Go the attachement. in the realm of physical, the same let go applied. Thus, it says in the song of enligthement above --
LET THE FOUR ELEMENTS GO, DO NOT GRASP AT THEM.

Mind and body are just the two faces of a coin. If one attached to they are different and in seperation, the Mind and body will not return to non dual but keep seperate and keep not function properly.

With the core principle Let Go or Non attached. One bring both the mind and body return to Non dual. The process of practise eventhough seems to be different however the the core is the same and simple - Let Go.


So then some ask, why is then I was not taugh to let go but concave my chest?
well, Concave the chest is just a finger pointing to the moon. It is a guiding instruction to let go of one's stiff push out chest habit or physical attachment.

Concave the chest is not the ultimate truth. it is just a finger pointing to the moon for some beginer who needs it, it is a conditional guide line not a universal truth.

Anyone who know let go the stuckness automatically know, while inhale one's head, spine and diaphram move in a direction of chin up, convex of chest, the tail bone release toward back.
while exhale one's head, spine and diaphram move in a direction of chin down,concave the chest, tail bone tug front.
and, deep abdomen breathing comes effortly naturally.

those above just nature cyclic rhythm of physical head, spine, diapham...etc; forcing it one way or holding it the other way is only make one's physical break out of the Nature rhythm or stuck, that can be easily monitor via how effortless the breathing. a proper rhythm of spine and diaphram yeild an effortless breathing and agile movement....


But, when some who dont understand the core principle of LET GO, keep grasping and hold on to partial ; and taking the finger as moon there is where the problem rises. and it has been like that since 1850.

Some also argue about the foot or the heel.... rooting... all sort of things. Same thing, no need to argue or interplate, just let go and see for oneself what it is without force things with one's mind ignorantly.

These are all cause by do not understand the core principle --- LET Go.
but cling on some idea or grasping something thinking that will make them superior unknowing that actually make them stuck.




The effect of Flow in physical action is based on Let Go, The effect of sharp awareness is based on Let Go or non attached otherwise one becomes dull/ insensitive/ stuburn. so Let Go let Go, there is only one Let Go. Thus, SLT is simple and direct, one doesnt practice ten millions stuffs but Letting Go.



The more one Letting Go the more the mind get clear/Sharp the more one Aware. The more one Letting Go the more the Body becomes ALive and agile and flow.

Let Go is mind less and effortless. That is what the Practitioner of SLT invest on and make perfect.



That is why SLT/SNT practice can result in

Come accept, goes send it back, Let go thrust forward, using silence to lead action.


As for the attaiment,
Due to different people have different mind and physical attachement or habit. everyone will face a different condition to let go one's own attachment.

Thus, it is said, "there is nothing to boast about my Kung Fu, it is only my job to get rid of my own dirty clothing or attachment." that is what the cultivation/training is about.



LET GO LET GO nothing more then LET GO just let go and that is living in now, no preparation, no fear.


Thus, it is called Siu Lien Tau because the more one train in it the more one knows the details ; and the less one does something ignorantly , if facts one is in the path of doing nothing.

[Hendrik]

3. Qi platform

When the Mind and physical Platform is proper. The Qi platform will surface naturally.

[-木叶-]

Then faster and faster each time, but not any faster than I could maintain my complete accuracy in application. I don't think you are going to be able to develop chi during this time. That comes with later. And chi is not some mystical power that you can summon like the force.
This form is done in a way that you learn to root from a neutral YGKYM stance, which can be shifted from one side to the next. And you can alter this form in any way you wish if it will help develop a particular skill that is lacking in some way. It's name implies that you use a little bit of imagination here.

This is incorrect but however your school might be different.

First, you do not go faster and faster. Secondly, sifu will teach correct breathing methods during execution, this in turn cultivates chi. Thirdly,shifting of ma is further taught in chum kiu and not slt although sifu may impart a little during chisao.

[Mr Punch]

IMHO,

it is not impossible. in fact it is very clear. but most refuse and against it for all kind of reason or for the reason of to against.No, I didn't mean the phenomena were impossible, I meant explaining it on a board. Hence the explanation that if that's what his teacher says its for he should ask his teacher.

However as you're a special case, Hendrik, if you want to try and explain it please go ahead! :D

EDIT: Oh. You have.

[Hendrik]

3. Qi platform

When the Mind and physical Platform is proper. The Qi platform will surface naturally.


Qi platform can be view as a subtle physical platform which is the bridge between mind and body. if the Mind and physical platform is not proper, this qi platform will not surface in stable manner.

This Qi platform can be used to do something which the physical platform not effective in doing such as checking the smooth of the action or to lead the physical action. As it said, using the Will to lead the Qi, let the Qi transport the physical part. This using Yee to lead the Qi and Qi transport the physical is critical when one needs to link the whole body into one action and to issue Jin. because one stuckness or clog in the path the body will not move effortlessly and the Jin will be stuck. So how is it in this state of mind/body/qi flow naturally? feeling light and "weight less" similar to levitate. if a stuck or clog or tensing occur, that part of the body will feel heavy in general.

As an example, some said the Sam Bai Fut section is for internal cultivation, Qi cultivation.....etc fine. so how can one know if one does it properly? The answer is feeling effortless and flow instead of purposely tensing the muscle, push the hand hard and slow, and tunnel vison type of stress focusing. Those are pulling reverse gear. the proper training is let go and the 3 yin hand medirians flow out from the chest while the hand move out with hok sau/koong sau in Yik Kam SLT/ and while the hand move back while doing wu sau in the 3 yang hand medirians flow from hand to the head.... BTW the fingers must be loose and spread otherwise it will not work well.

As it is said, Sung, Chin, Tze Ran or Loose and expand the physical, Silence and quiet the mind, let the breathing and Qi to naturally flow.



In Qi platform there are two phases needs to be understood. To cultivate Qi, One is boost of the Qi. One is to lead the qi.

To cultivate Qi, one must have the Loosing the physical, quiet the mind, and breathing naturally. In another word, Let Go or as the song of enligtement said previously

LET THE FOUR ELEMENTS GO, DO NOT GRASP AT THEM.
THE NATURE OF STILL QUIESCENCE ACCORDS WITH DRINKING AND EATING.


To boost Qi, it is said,

心息则神安，神安则气足，气足则血旺，血气流畅，则有病可以去病，不足可以补充，已足可以增长



or quiet the mind the Shen will be settle, Shen is settle the Qi will be adequate, Qi adequate the blood will be strong, qi and blood flow smoothly, disease and sickness will be gone. Those who have in adequate Qi will be fill. Those who have adequate qi will be boost.


To lead the Qi is for opening or unclog purpose when there is a need. this is similar to a finger pointing at the moon or a ship using to cross the river, once the river cross or the moon seen, the vehicle is no longer needed. This is often needed to help the letting go of stuck. however, there are different ways to do. That needs proper individual instruction.

however, letting go is the main dish one must always goes back to.


Finally, as it said process the essense into the qi, transcent the qi into Shen, return the shen into the empiness.

Letting Go is the key to enter into the Pre-birth or Lien Shen Huan Xu or return the Shen into emptiness.



So, Let Go, Let Go, Let Go. just one Let Go. and nothing else.

In the WCK Kuen kuit, it said When there is no shadow breaking the Choong or middle. What is that mean by breaking the Choong?

This is what it said " when one is in totally chaos or trap by pressure from all direction, let go your mind and body. in today's word, let go your box and that is getting out of the box. Otherwise your box trap you.




Well, the three platform above needs to be understood and master in order to master SLT/SNT. without knowing these 3 platforms one cant enter into the door.

and is SLT/SNT qigong?

SLT/SNT is a holistic ancient training and one cant ignore one of the three platform while practice it.


LEt go that is the only thing one needs to know, the rest are just conditional vechicle to bring one a cross the river or across a path of stuck or clog.


As it is said, Dao mimic the Nature. The above is how it was done in General. as for the details. that needs a coach thus one needs to Baisi to someone who knows to get one un stuck.


do you understand what I am posting? if yes, then that is still not Zen because it is still mental derivation, one needs to turn the world down side up to live there.

So, how can one know it is upside down? going to a movie and see for yourself how easy one is losing within the drama of the movie be it sex, violent, revenge, joy..... one attached to that and want it and dont want to detach and one got stuck. that is upside down.

and the training is one can drop those at anytime and flow. That is what it means by using the silence to lead the action. instead of attach to the action that one becomes lost in the action.

Finally, Qi platform is similar to the physical platform. one doesnt create it. the Mind/body/Qi platform are parallel reality and over lab each others. It is there always like it or not.
It is about recognized its existance and live with it via letting go the attachement or stuck.

[Hendrik]

No, I didn't mean the phenomena were impossible, I meant explaining it on a board. Hence the explanation that if that's what his teacher says its for he should ask his teacher.

However as you're a special case, Hendrik, if you want to try and explain it please go ahead! :D

EDIT: Oh. You have.


ok. see if what I post making sense.

One needs to live in that world to be able to access that world. living upside down or down side up that is one's choice.

[-木叶-]

Thanks hendrik I feel it is very well explained.

[Hendrik]

one thing one must need to be really really really carefull is that There is just non dual in the reality, there is no seperation of the body, mind, qi platform.

Those are post here just for intelecture UNDERSTANDING. in the reality everything is one.

IE: one is shoot a basket ball. one just shoots. there is no "oh, I got to direct my Yee, oh I need to align my body strucute, oh I have to root, oh I got to direct my qi......" nope just do it.

IE: if the three platfoms is not working in harmony, then fast accelerate power generation and jin issue cannot be done effectively. and in fact, it will stuck some where. analogy : when one is sending water from one part of the water pipe to other part and then shoot at the wall, one naturally clear the path of the water naturally.



Thus it is said, "Yee moves Shen is there" or " intent and everything is done" or Ask and it is already given. Everything is one effortless piece without even need to think and prepare and....


Most people get stuck in Oh I need to root, Oh I need to direct my Qi...... those are people understand but dont know what is reality.


and also, it is not Programing. it is Let go and Let GOD. instead of become a Robort.


See, to be able to flow like water one needs to be able to Let go, in mind, body, qi .

Zen is let go that attachement of let go or flow.


I am mentioning the mind, body, Qi platform only for high lighting purpose. in the reality just let go and not thinking about all these vehicles. these three platform are just vehicle, once one get it one let these vehicle go.

as it said in Zen, There is not a thing, how could it collect dust?

Without letting go the vehicle the vechicle will become a burdern. sugggest one always needs to stand is a burden if attached suggest one always needs to go to the ground is also the same.



Some ask me, it is ok to learn BJJ, told him yes, if not learning BJJ has become a burden for you. Nothing Fix. Let Go Let Go. One does anything to pracitce Let Go and arrive at Non attachement.


Some said, one needs to direct Qi in this medirians..... and attached to it and thinking that is kung fu. Well, that has become a burden because it has become an attachement.


So, practicing SLT/SNT is the most simple thing let go the attachement in mind, body, qi platform but it is the most difficult and endless polishing because we all comes with lots of attachement and burden which we are clueless. and Understanding doesnt help.

What one needs is a mirror to look at oneself and know who one is and what one does, instead of a computer which keep speculating.

[Hendrik]

Thanks hendrik I feel it is very well explained.

You are welcome.

Things always need to have 譜 or track, instead of 盲修瞎練 (blindly training), 南轅北轍. (unconverge betwen the practice and the principle). only with the track and consistancy one will be able to enter the door and progress and attain different mile stone.

Otherwise, it becomes cooking sand and expect to get rice --- fantasying or foolish following a wrong path.


practicing holding this and that hunch this and that ; and expecting to Flow is just walking in an opposite direction while thinking one direction.






Since today is the memorial day:

here are the first five stanza of yik Kam SLT kuen kuit which describe the three platform and instruction in details to describe how from starting to the completion of YJKYM


集意会神平肩襠
collect the Yee and union with the shen in the equal shoulder structure

双手前起半(分)陰阳
Hands raise toward the front must aware of the path of action's Yin or Yang

左脚跘出有善惡
Left leg trip out (be aware of ) the aiding or countering to the structure dynamic stability


右跟曲勁緊反藏
right heel's coiling Jin stores in the reverse ( reverse means suspending the head)


會合丹田督脈降.
Fusion in the Dan Dien, watch out for the spine's effortless extending, and sinking via the Ren medirian.



That is how those ancestors doing it in the red boat, The three platform and six directional force vectors handling are within it.


Those of you the decendent of Yik Kam in China or SEA, the above 5 is important, without walking the path of CLF or other Nam Kuen.






Ok, enough from my side, let you all discuss and have fun.

[Lee Chiang Po]

This is incorrect but however your school might be different.

First, you do not go faster and faster. Secondly, sifu will teach correct breathing methods during execution, this in turn cultivates chi. Thirdly,shifting of ma is further taught in chum kiu and not slt although sifu may impart a little during chisao.


I didn't get training in a school. When I was talking about doing it faster and faster, I am not talking about whipping it out. You start slowly in order to get correct alignment of the weapon, then you can increase your speed of movement to become fluid and smooth yet correct and still in alignment. I like to speak in more common terms. I have to say Hendrik that in all that you have said I am still not knowing what you are talking about. I guess it is just me and my poor understanding of your English.
When doing SLT I am always completely relaxed and my movements are smooth and fluid. I can exert tremendous power without ever straining or tightening muscles. SLT can have shifting and changing of the root so to speak. If you do your SLT completely on the center line you will develop a really nasty habit. You have to shift to apply tan sao on your own center line, otherwise an opponent can and will simply reach right in and nail you one in the face. A strike will not come directly down your own center line usually, but off to the side from the alignment of his arm. In order to address that correctly you have to shift your root and tan the punch on your own center line. If you simply apply it on center while facing an opponent it is ineffective. This can be practiced in your SLT. I have to say that this makes far more sense to me than what you have been saying. You might be making perfect sense to some one, but I got lost way back on number 1 somewhere.

[-木叶-]

Hi Chiang Po,

Thanks for your explanation, i think i was thinking along the lines of SLT execution itself alone, while you are thinking of sparring scenarios.

[t_niehoff]

Siu Nim Tao is the first form of Wing Chun, it is primarily for training the most fundamental and important concepts of wing chun.


"Concepts" are ideas, mental constructs. The SNT set doesn't "train" ideas.



During practice and training, your breathing will cultivate the qi within you.
Correct breathing methods will increase oxygen intake, increase lung capacity, in return increase the efficiency and robustness of your bodily functions, making you less easy to wear out, "lasting power".


No, it won't.

Modern scientific and sport research has proved beyond any doubt that cardiovascular efficiency (which includesoxygen intake, etc.) is activity specific. In other words, the only way to develop cardio efficiency for fighting is by fighting. The only way to develop general, overall cardio efficiency is through strenuous aerobic and anerobic exercise.



This is why from a scientific point of view, practicing Wing Chun also makes one more healthy.


That statement is nonsensical. You have just talked about chi/qi from a "scientific point of view." The "scientific point of view" is that chi/qi does not exist.



Therefore it is very important to practice Siu Nim Tao once a day. For me i practice it definitely once before any training, and once to end any training.


Forms are merely a way to "memorize" the movement patterns, tools, etc. of a martial art. While some people might in their fantasy imagine it has other benefits, singing the "abc" song everyday really isn't necessary. ;)



Hope this little knowledge i have helps.

What's the old saw about "a little knowledge"?

[CFT]

Modern scientific and sport research has proved beyond any doubt that cardiovascular efficiency (which includes oxygen intake, etc.) is activity specific. In other words, the only way to develop cardio efficiency for fighting is by fighting. The only way to develop general, overall cardio efficiency is through strenuous aerobic and anerobic exercise.Yes, a little from my own experience about "conditioning" being activity specific. Back when I was a student I used to jog regularly - about every other day - nothing special but I thought it helped with my general health. One day I was asked to "make up the numbers" for a college football/soccer game - boy was I in for a surprise (even though I played football a lot in my youth). The stop/start nature of a football game placed totally different aerobic requirements on my body compared to the steady pace of my jogging.

[Ali. R]

T. is right, “Yee Jee Kim Yang Mah” don’t support the ideal of “chi”, unlike the horse stance does..

Meaning just from doing SLT and its movements with breathing don’t cultivate chi, for some it could happen; but it will take years from doing it that way…


Ali Rahim.

[Hendrik]

Modern scientific and sport research has proved beyond any doubt that cardiovascular efficiency (which includesoxygen intake, etc.) is activity specific. In other words, the only way to develop cardio efficiency for fighting is by fighting. The only way to develop general, overall cardio efficiency is through strenuous aerobic and anerobic exercise.


Sure, it is true.

However, asking those who have heart or Lung or kidney condition to do strenuous aerobic exercise will heal the heart or damage the person?


See, this it nothing to do with Modern Scientific. The ancient Chinese medicine knows there are two phases of nature, that is the dissipative and the boosting.

What you mention above is the dissipative. and that is perfectly fine for normal people who can effort the strenous. and that is also uses in the Ancient Chinese MArtial art training.



what you dont know it the Boosting. That is to recyle the Chi/Qi and heal without going to the strenous path because the person simple cant take it.



In Fact,
a good example is late GM Chen Man-Ching of Taiji, he cured his TBC with internal training.

Also, late GM Ma Li-Tang who cured a large amount of Heart condition patient with cultivating Qi.


Modern Science is great even GM MA Li-Tang or GM Chow Cien Chuan of two top qigong internal art grandmasters are using the Modern Science to verify the ancient to make it more effective.

However, one needs to know there is a up side down and down side up world or the dissipative and the boost.

So, what is dissipative? dissipative can be analogues to when the water level of a lake is raising it will out flow into rivers.....etc

What is boosting means? boosting means when the water level is less then the out flow level. the lake will sit still and accumulate water.



Internal art training include both the accumulation and flow/ unclog/dissipate. however, a good internal art flow and non dissipative. Thus, one does feel exhaust after training.






That statement is nonsensical. You have just talked about chi/qi from a "scientific point of view." The "scientific point of view" is that chi/qi does not exist.


That is perfectly correct according to Terence.

NOt so for the USA medical insurance company who include Accupuncture in their catagory and not so for Children’s Hospital of Pennsylvania State University (BTW it has been six months but you still didnt call Professor John E. Neely MD to verify his data
http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/creative/jixingli.htm



How critical can one think? when one makes conclusion based on one's day dream and not have the first hand knowledge?

[Hendrik]

T. is right, “Yee Jee Kim Yang Mah” don’t support the ideal of “chi”, unlike the horse stance does..

Meaning just from doing SLT and its movements with breathing don’t cultivate chi, for some it could happen; but it will take years from doing it that way…





This is very true when doing SLT/SNT without following the path of mind/body platform process.

No Chi will surface that is forsure not to mention cultivate it.


Thus, I have heard,

it doesnt have to take years and it is not "could" happen. It must happen if one knows the process of handling the mind/body platform.

[Hendrik]

using a scissor as a knife to chop vegi. it is both infective and inefficient isnt it?

and the first step is to know a scissor is not a knife and one doesnt use Scissor to chop.


It is hopeless if one keeps using his critical thinking to prove why scissor doesnt chop vegi well. one sure makes an excellent point on that but it just proof one's ignorance.

[Yoshiyahu]

Why did Grand Master Yip Man practice Siu Nim Tao slowly for any hour?

Why would he spend an hour practicing the SLT so slowly it took an hour to complete. What were the benefits?

[Hendrik]

For those who is in the path of Qi cultivation,

The physical body is analogue to a stove. The intention power is analogue to the fire. The breathing is analogue to the wind.


When the Stove is in a proper state, the fire in a proper strenght, the wind in a proper strenght amount, Chi must surface. and one could manage the strenght of the Qi via the strenght of the wind and fire.


clear and simple.


However, without knowing the stove, knowing not the fire and wind and the amount of the strenght. no path to lead into this practice.


It is a technology, and modern science will only prove its existance.

[Hendrik]

W
hy did Grand Master Yip Man practice Siu Nim Tao slowly for any hour?


Go ask GM Ip Man.




Why would he spend an hour practicing the SLT so slowly it took an hour to complete. What were the benefits?

also ask, what were the benefits of day dreaming and fantasy for a life time?

[Vajramusti]

also ask, what were the benefits of day dreaming and fantasy for a life time?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who should be asked and who should comment on day dreaming and fantasy for a lifetime?
Ip Man?

Unclear who, why?

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Yes, a little from my own experience about "conditioning" being activity specific. Back when I was a student I used to jog regularly - about every other day - nothing special but I thought it helped with my general health. One day I was asked to "make up the numbers" for a college football/soccer game - boy was I in for a surprise (even though I played football a lot in my youth). The stop/start nature of a football game placed totally different aerobic requirements on my body compared to the steady pace of my jogging.


I don't doubt this, and I believe in the specificity of training.

However, I had a knee arthroscopy a few months ago - one of the main differences was before the op I couldn't run any significant distance and now I can.

Running 6-8 kilometers 2-3 times a week has improved my grappling cardio significantly. I can get through 5x5 minute rounds with 1 minute rest now without too much trouble, where as before I was having to quit midway through the fourth.

(I'm 54 and sparring guys`10-30 years younger).

All the top fighters cross train, You can't fight all the time and even if you could it's not the smartest way to go.

If you're not a pro fighter, just about any type of training you do is going to be better than doing nothing.


what were the benefits of day dreaming and fantasy for a life time?

IIRC, Kekule realised the structure of the benzene molecule this way.

A number of successful writers have no doubt benefited as well.

Dare I say Hendrik spends too much time fantasising, though apparently without any useful result.

[Hendrik]

also ask, what were the benefits of day dreaming and fantasy for a life time?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who should be asked and who should comment on day dreaming and fantasy for a lifetime?
Ip Man?

Unclear who, why?

joy chaudhuri

Joy,
That is asking ourself.

[Hendrik]

Dare I say Hendrik spends too much time fantasising, though apparently without any useful result.


It is 100% correct from your view.

[Edmund]

That is perfectly correct according to Terence.

NOt so for the USA medical insurance company who include Accupuncture in their catagory and not so for Children’s Hospital of Pennsylvania State University (BTW it has been six months but you still didnt call Professor John E. Neely MD to verify his data
http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/creative/jixingli.htm

How critical can one think? when one makes conclusion based on one's day dream and not have the first hand knowledge?

I'd remind you AGAIN that Professor Neely is not a good reference!

I tried to contact him and ask and got NOTHING. In other words, your source will provide no info and will not back your theories.

That website is a crock of **** so quit linking it. All those graphs are supposed references to studies which I CANNOT FIND therefore useless. There is no record of Neely doing the experiments other than your dodgy websites.

YOU SHOULD HAVE LOOKED FOR THIS. Not me. *I* can point to my qigong studies in medical research public databases. YOU CANT. Instead you've got stuff on youtube. You've got no grounds to complain about skeptics when you're peddling the dodgiest stuff.

[Hendrik]

I'd remind you AGAIN that Professor Neely is not a good reference!

I tried to contact him and ask and got NOTHING. In other words, your source will provide no info and will not back your theories.



You certainly could give you opinion.

What do you mean you TRied to contact him ... GOT Nothing? be specific please.

could you please officially repeat what Professor Neely told you in writing ? if you have speak with him directly?

Otherwise, why make a conclusion?






That website is a crock of **** so quit linking it. All those graphs are supposed references to studies which I CANNOT FIND therefore useless.

There is no record of Neely doing the experiments other than your dodgy websites.


That mean you have not contacted and communicate directly with Dr. Neely and draw conclusion based on your own speculation right?

In that case, what is the point to commenting?








YOU SHOULD HAVE LOOKED FOR THIS. Not me.


You are the one who like to find out and verify right?
Not me.






*I* can point to my qigong studies in medical research public databases. YOU CANT.


sure.

you could be the best champion in qigong google surfing. that is great.







Instead you've got stuff on youtube. You've got no grounds to complain about skeptics when you're peddling the dodgiest stuff.


Either it is a youtube or a research data those are just communication vehicle, drawing conclusion based on vehicle? where is the logic? none sense right?



it would be appreciate that you communicate without those rude attitude and rude comments.


if you dont like to contact Dr. Neely , just said so. you are not obligate to.
you are also not obligate to reply my post to Terence.

and you are not obligate to reply to this post either.


BTW.
I suggest if you want to reply, make sure you get solid contact with Dr. Neely.

no point to screaming and being rude...and with all your own speculation.etc right? those are just a waste of time /bandwidth and doesnt change a thing on Qi Gong.

There is no point to continous this discussion if the agenda is to win with all cost for ego shake, right?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Hi Chiang Po,

Thanks for your explanation, i think i was thinking along the lines of SLT execution itself alone, while you are thinking of sparring scenarios.



Actually I was not thinking of sparring scenarios. When I was first learning WC I learned to do the SLT with stepping and root shifting combined with my standard basic hand techniques. No kicking, just stepping in and back, and shifting root without actually moving my feet from the neutral postions as well. This was just part of the form as such. And not only were there the 4 unarmed forms you see with most lineages today, but also a form for footwork and shifting. We had a large room with a red concrete floor and on that was painted a large 8 petal flower. On that 8 petal flower were 24 points that radiated out from the center. It was 12 feet from point to point across the flower. It was to give reference for foot placement until you could do it blind. The idea of this form was to facilitate movements either direct or at angles in and out while using the basic step and shift. The idea is to be able to inflict upon your opponent by getting in close and quickly, then avoid his ability to inflict upon you by being able to move outside his effective range just as quickly. All this while maintaining YGKYM, solid rooting foundation, and fluid application of your weapon systems. The stepping SLT gives you a more comfortable application of these weapon systems from the first stages of your training.
On Utube I have seen SLT done both sides at the same time. When I was teaching my son I had him doing this for a time. He could not coordinate his left as well as his right, so doing it both sides at once seemed to help him coordinate. Eventually he started doing it left and then right. It is difficult to do this with leg work though. As if you kick with both feet at once you tend to lose your rooting foundation.

[Edmund]

You certainly could give you opinion.

What do you mean you TRied to contact him ... GOT Nothing? be specific please.

could you please officially repeat what Professor Neely told you in writing ? if you have speak with him directly?

Otherwise, why make a conclusion?


I tried calling and emailing multiple times. He never returned any responses.
You said he published his results and I looked for publications/reports and there were none. He certainly has other published stuff but none on your experiments.

You pointed me to a dead end. You shouldn't give "proof" of scientific evidence that can't be found. You should have made sure it could be found before you said go to Prof Neely.

I'm not making any conclusions. I'm just saying you are an a-hole for continually sending everyone to a guy who can't be reached. I told you he couldn't and you still quote him again on this thread.




You are the one who like to find out and verify right?
Not me.



You are so full of ****.
You talked about "technology", research and science.
You've done none yourself.

Now you're proud of not verifying any of the evidence you've spouted. You shouldn't have quoted the guy in the first place. When I go to look it all up and can't find anything, it's like "Why should I verify? I can say what I like."




BTW.
I suggest if you want to reply, make sure you get solid contact with Dr. Neely.

no point to screaming and being rude...and with all your own speculation.etc right? those are just a waste of time /bandwidth and doesnt change a thing on Qi Gong.

There is no point to continous this discussion if the agenda is to win with all cost for ego shake, right?

I'm not speculating.

Neely was a bust. If anyone else tries to reach him based on your advice, they could get the same run-around as me so I am going to bi-tch about it every time you quote that stupid website.

[-木叶-]

"Concepts" are ideas, mental constructs. The SNT set doesn't "train" ideas.


I do not understand. Does SLT helps in strengthening your body's awareness of centreline? If you say no then you are correct?




That statement is nonsensical. You have just talked about chi/qi from a "scientific point of view." The "scientific point of view" is that chi/qi does not exist.


Very well then we will not argue about whether it exists, if ones development
is up to a point where chi does not exists, then no point hammering it in



Forms are merely a way to "memorize" the movement patterns, tools, etc. of a martial art. While some people might in their fantasy imagine it has other benefits, singing the "abc" song everyday really isn't necessary. ;)

What's the old saw about "a little knowledge"?

Same here.

Hope it helps.

[t_niehoff]

I do not understand. Does SLT helps in strengthening your body's awareness of centreline? If you say no then you are correct?


What do you mean by "centerline"? That's one problem with "concepts": different people give different meanings to the same term.

If you are talking about our midline, do I need a form to "strengthen my awareness" of my midline? I already know where it is. I can find it in the dark.

If, by centerline, you mean "mutual line" (the line between me and my opponent), how can a solo form increase awareness of that (since there is not opponent)?



Very well then we will not argue about whether it exists, if ones development
is up to a point where chi does not exists, then no point hammering it in


If, by "develoment", you mean critical thinking facility, then yes, I'm at the point in my development where I realize that chi/qi is a fantasy or, at best, a metaphor. Just like I no longer believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny or fairies.

But, if you want to believe in fairies, I guess there is no point in hammering it in.

[-木叶-]

What do you mean by "centerline"? That's one problem with "concepts": different people give different meanings to the same term.

If you are talking about our midline, do I need a form to "strengthen my awareness" of my midline? I already know where it is. I can find it in the dark.

If, by centerline, you mean "mutual line" (the line between me and my opponent), how can a solo form increase awareness of that (since there is not opponent)?


Punches in SLT are thrown at the centerline, so does the movement of tan sao and bong sao and so on. Without knowing why we need to do that, and its importance, can a person without any prior knowledge of martial arts start practicing Wing Chun? Do you disagree that when we all start Wing Chun, if there is no Sifu or Sihengdai to guide us, we will base our movements outside of the centerline?



If, by "develoment", you mean critical thinking facility, then yes, I'm at the point in my development where I realize that chi/qi is a fantasy or, at best, a metaphor. Just like I no longer believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny or fairies.

But, if you want to believe in fairies, I guess there is no point in hammering it in.

Your statement that chi is at best, a metaphor, shows that you are exploring too
so is all of us, including me. By saying something is "Santa Claus or Easter Bunny" we totally wipe out any possibility of its existence, laughing at it.

I am sorry but there is no way that as a Wing Chun and Martial arts practitioner
that I can deny the existence of chi for it does exists and is being harnessed by not only me but many many MA practitioners in the world.

[Yoshiyahu]

Terrence you Said Chi or Qi is at best a metaphor.

What is it a Metaphor for?

An also why does doing Tai Chi or Chi Kung improve your feeling of wellness and health in certain areas?

[CFT]

Punches in SLT are thrown at the centerline, so does the movement of tan sao and bong sao and so on. Without knowing why we need to do that, and its importance, can a person without any prior knowledge of martial arts start practicing Wing Chun?Not all lineages practice tan/bong on centreline so a "one size fits all" approach doesn't and shouldn't apply.

Gulao/Kulo Wing Chun does not even have SNT and the other forms but instead are replaced by a set of discrete drills.

So much for the "benefits" of SNT! Best not to be too prescriptive about what it should and shouldn't do for us since YMMV.

[t_niehoff]

Punches in SLT are thrown at the centerline, so does the movement of tan sao and bong sao and so on. Without knowing why we need to do that, and its importance, can a person without any prior knowledge of martial arts start practicing Wing Chun? Do you disagree that when we all start Wing Chun, if there is no Sifu or Sihengdai to guide us, we will base our movements outside of the centerline?


Take a step back for a moment and consider what you've written: "Without knowing why we need to do that". How can a FORM give you the knowledge of WHY you need to do that? It can't. A FORM is only a dance. Only function -- these things in actual usage -- can. Someone who can make these things work can show you why you need to do this or that. Or, your opponents can show you why you need to do this or that. But a FORM can't show you since a FORM isn't function (really doing it).



Your statement that chi is at best, a metaphor, shows that you are exploring too
so is all of us, including me. By saying something is "Santa Claus or Easter Bunny" we totally wipe out any possibility of its existence, laughing at it.

I am sorry but there is no way that as a Wing Chun and Martial arts practitioner
that I can deny the existence of chi for it does exists and is being harnessed by not only me but many many MA practitioners in the world.

You are not alone -- there are many woos who believe in all kinds of nonsense. Modern science has precluded the existence of qi. So, I'm not "searching" to understand qi, anymore than I am searching to understand fairies (which is another thing people in the past used to believe in).

[t_niehoff]

Terrence you Said Chi or Qi is at best a metaphor.

What is it a Metaphor for?

An also why does doing Tai Chi or Chi Kung improve your feeling of wellness and health in certain areas?

Qi is a metaphor for all kinds of things -- sort of a one-metaphor-fits-all.

About tai ji or qi gong: what you are referring to is that perhaps it makes you or some people "feel" better. That doesn't mean it would make anyone or most people "feel" better. Why does it make you "feel" better? I can think of all kinds of reasons, ranging from placebo effect to stress reduction to releasing endorphins to getting an oxygen high to getting some mild exercise and so on. I "feel" better after soaking in a hot tub. I don't need to resort to imaginary forces to explain it.

[Hendrik]

I tried calling and emailing multiple times. He never returned any responses.
You said he published his results and I looked for publications/reports and there were none. He certainly has other published stuff but none on your experiments.

You pointed me to a dead end. You shouldn't give "proof" of scientific evidence that can't be found. You should have made sure it could be found before you said go to Prof Neely.

I'm not making any conclusions. I'm just saying you are an a-hole for continually sending everyone to a guy who can't be reached. I told you he couldn't and you still quote him again on this thread.



You are so full of ****.
You talked about "technology", research and science.
You've done none yourself.

Now you're proud of not verifying any of the evidence you've spouted. You shouldn't have quoted the guy in the first place. When I go to look it all up and can't find anything, it's like "Why should I verify? I can say what I like."




I'm not speculating.

Neely was a bust. If anyone else tries to reach him based on your advice, they could get the same run-around as me so I am going to bi-tch about it every time you quote that stupid website.



Thanks and appreciate for your opinion.

[Hendrik]

Qi is a metaphor for all kinds of things -- sort of a one-metaphor-fits-all.

About tai ji or qi gong: what you are referring to is that perhaps it makes you or some people "feel" better. That doesn't mean it would make anyone or most people "feel" better. Why does it make you "feel" better? I can think of all kinds of reasons, ranging from placebo effect to stress reduction to releasing endorphins to getting an oxygen high to getting some mild exercise and so on. I "feel" better after soaking in a hot tub. I don't need to resort to imaginary forces to explain it.


Facts speak for itself.

Nope it was not magic which do everyting. But it is something solid.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9wIFW3pFnE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ch4mbXdwEA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3adQYN-Mb3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Ze5HdtcI8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C8oFJaSPJ0&feature=PlayList&p=F6590E41B87D70DF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7

[t_niehoff]

I'd remind you AGAIN that Professor Neely is not a good reference!

I tried to contact him and ask and got NOTHING. In other words, your source will provide no info and will not back your theories.

That website is a crock of **** so quit linking it. All those graphs are supposed references to studies which I CANNOT FIND therefore useless. There is no record of Neely doing the experiments other than your dodgy websites.

YOU SHOULD HAVE LOOKED FOR THIS. Not me. *I* can point to my qigong studies in medical research public databases. YOU CANT. Instead you've got stuff on youtube. You've got no grounds to complain about skeptics when you're peddling the dodgiest stuff.

There are always quacks in science (and in everything for that matter). You can find isolated people, even small groups, that believe and promote all kinds of nonsense. If you do a search on the internet, you can find "support" for almost any nutty theory. And as you correctly point out, when you really examine these guys, the claims fall to the wayside.

Hendrik's problem is that he wants to point to science (these nutters) to support his nonscientific views. But what he either doesn't understand or, more likely, doesn't want to understand, is that the scientific community (and medical community) AS A WHOLE reject qi and that entire paradigm as fantasy.

[t_niehoff]

Facts speak for itself.

Nope it was not magic which do everyting. But it is something solid.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9wIFW3pFnE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ch4mbXdwEA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3adQYN-Mb3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Ze5HdtcI8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C8oFJaSPJ0&feature=PlayList&p=F6590E41B87D70DF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7

Go google coffee enemas and cancer. People will believe all kinds of nonsense. They will really believe it. They will believe prayer cured them. They'll believe crystals cured them. The problem with these sorts of anecdotes is that it is fairly common (around 10% or so) that many diseases go into remission IF YOU DO NOTHING. Now, take some loon giving themselves coffee enemas for their cancer, their cancer goes into remission and lo and behold, they are on youtube saying how their cancer was cured by coffee enemas. But that is a fallacy, it is poor reasoning. This is why they do double blind studies to factor out things like natural remissions. And, you don't hear from all the people who did coffee enemas and died (as they are dead, they can't go on youtube).

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/

and

http://www.laetusinpraesens.org/links/webcrit.php

are worth spending some time with.

[Hendrik]

Go google coffee enemas and cancer. People will believe all kinds of nonsense. They will really believe it. They will believe prayer cured them. They'll believe crystals cured them. The problem with these sorts of anecdotes is that it is fairly common (around 10% or so) that many diseases go into remission IF YOU DO NOTHING. Now, take some loon giving themselves coffee enemas for their cancer, their cancer goes into remission and lo and behold, they are on youtube saying how their cancer was cured by coffee enemas. But that is a fallacy, it is poor reasoning. This is why they do double blind studies to factor out things like natural remissions. And, you don't hear from all the people who did coffee enemas and died (as they are dead, they can't go on youtube).

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/

and

http://www.laetusinpraesens.org/links/webcrit.php

are worth spending some time with.



Thank you and appreciate for your opinion.

[t_niehoff]

Thank you and appreciate for your opinion.

Hendrik, why don't you evaluate Dr. Neely and his website with this

http://www.library.jhu.edu/researchhelp/general/evaluating/

[Hendrik]

But what he either doesn't understand or, more likely, doesn't want to understand, is that the scientific community (and medical community) AS A WHOLE reject qi and that entire paradigm as fantasy.



Thank you and appreciate for you opinion based on your tribe/community believe.

whatever a tribe/community likes to believe. That is not my issue.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, why don't you evaluate Dr. Neely and his website with this

http://www.library.jhu.edu/researchhelp/general/evaluating/



Thanks for your websurfing.


If you dont like Dr. Neely, call Penn state and raise your voice yourself.


I rather spend time practice qigong and get result.

[t_niehoff]

Thank you and appreciate for you opinion based on your tribe/community believe.


Yeah, "my tribe" is the ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE.

[Hendrik]

Yeah, "my tribe" is the ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE.

That is fine. who cares?

similar to you change your Religion to BJJ, who cares? I dont because it is a free will world.

[t_niehoff]

Thanks for your websurfing. I rather spend time practice qigong and get result.

I point you to a Johns Hopkins library article about evaluating information on the web. You don't think that useful? If you apply it to Neely, you will see that his "information" is highly suspect. Isn't that useful to know? Or would you rather ignore that and mislead people by citing to him? Do you want to intentionally mislead people? Or, do you justnot care if you mislead people?

[Hendrik]

I point you to a Johns Hopkins library article about evaluating information on the web. You don't think that useful? If you apply it to Neely, you will see that his "information" is highly suspect. Isn't that useful to know? Or would you rather ignore that and mislead people by citing to him? Do you want to intentionally mislead people? Or, do you justnot care if you mislead people?


Call Dr. Neely or Penn State if you feel you would love to express your belief.


For me,

I know lots of people cure or heal or control thier chronic disease via qigong without western medicine or even when western medicine cant help them.

[t_niehoff]

That is fine. who cares?

similar to you change your Religion to BJJ, who cares? I dont because it is a free will world.

Who cares if the ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY has determined that something is a fantasy?

Interesting perspective.

[Hendrik]

Who cares if the ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY has determined that something is a fantasy?

Interesting perspective.


hahaha. great .

and BTW. you also the one who believe in Gracie's subsconcious learning. hahahaha.

[t_niehoff]

Call Dr. Neely or Penn State if you feel you would love to express your belief.


For me,

I know lots of people cure or heal or control thier chronic disease via qigong.

Hendrik, you are being disingenuous. Edmund has already told you that he has made significant attempts to contact Dr. Neely and that Neely won't have any contact. You know that. So why do you tell people to call him knowing that?

You have just demonstrated that you are not interested in really evaluating Neely's website claims, you don't seem to care that under Johns Hopkins own standards that his website is considered highly suspect, and now you are saying to contact him when you know that won't work. Do you think this is intellectually honest?

And, it takes serious medical studies by trained researcher to find out what really works and why things really work. Maybe if you took the time to learn something about what's really involved in medical research (in proving some treatment is actually useful), you wouldn't make such claims.

[t_niehoff]

hahaha. great .

and BTW. you also the one who believe in Gracie's subsconcious learning. hahahaha.

And the Gracies have produced how many world-class fighters? Oh, but I'm sure that YOU know better.

[Hendrik]

And the Gracies have produced how many world-class fighters? Oh, but I'm sure that YOU know better.


I dont know Gracies. But I do know Mas Oyama better.

[Hendrik]

Anyone in Bay area interested in meeting and chatting about SLT/SNT and the three platform development?

[t_niehoff]

I dont know Gracies. But I do know Mas Oyama better.

Hendrik, I am coming to the conclusion that you are simply intellectually dishonest.

You bring up the Gracie quote about how learning BJJ is a unconscious process out of the blue when it has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand (how qi is a fantasy) in an attempt at ridicule, and when I point out that they may know something about what they are talking about - more so than you - since they have the experience of producing loads of world-class fighters, you come back with the childish "Mas Oyama was better."

You should know that when you have to resort to intellectual dishonesty, it means you've not only lost your argument, you've lost all integrity.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I am coming to the conclusion that you are simply intellectually dishonest.

You bring up the Gracie quote about how learning BJJ is a unconscious process out of the blue when it has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand (how qi is a fantasy) in an attempt at ridicule, and when I point out that they may know something about what they are talking about - more so than you - since they have the experience of producing loads of world-class fighters, you come back with the childish "Mas Oyama was better."

You should know that when you have to resort to intellectual dishonesty, it means you've not only lost your argument, you've lost all integrity.


It is you who quote the Gracie's subsconcious learning in one hand and on the other hand keep playing Scientific police. Not me. (not to mention, you dont even use Scientific instrument in training. hahaha. That is how far you are a Scientific)

I learn with Mas Oyama's team, so I know Mas Oyama. I dont learn with Gracie's team. So I dont know Gracie. I heard about Gracie but that doesnt make me KNOW Gracie. Got that straight ?

That is a simple fact.


since You like to argue for your hero, your religion....your tribal believe.....you are a savior of WCK....and how you think I am thinking....... I dont have time for that. Thanks and no thanks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is you who quote the Gracie's subsconcious learning in one hand and on the other hand keep playing Scientific police. Not me. (not to mention, you dont even use Scientific instrument in training. hahaha. That is how far you are a Scientific)

I learn with Mas Oyama's team, so I know Mas Oyama. I dont learn with Gracie's team. So I dont know Gracie. I heard about Gracie but that doesnt make me KNOW Gracie. Got that straight ?

That is a simple fact.


since You like to argue for your hero, your religion....your tribal believe.....you are a savior of WCK....and how you think I am thinking....... I dont have time for that. Thanks and no thanks.

You keep bringing out that "subconsious learning" thing...
Now, if I recall correctly ( and I am not saying I do), learning via the subconsious is nothing new or revolutionary and yes, Mas Oyama was a fan of that too, it was called 1000 reps of Kihon !

[Hendrik]

You keep bringing out that "subconsious learning" thing...
Now, if I recall correctly ( and I am not saying I do), learning via the subconsious is nothing new or revolutionary and yes, Mas Oyama was a fan of that too, it was called 1000 reps of Kihon !



1
According to Terence's posts,

As soon as it is not Gracie, then all others' practice needs to be Scientifically Prove. other wise it is misleading.


See,
Terence accept whatever he has heard from Gracie and by default that it the TRUTH ;
but required all others to be scientific proven.


Thus, Gracie can do that and it is the Truth. While Mas Oyama has to proven scientifically. hahaha




2, As for Mas Oyama training, yes, I know that because I am a Kyokushin.
Dont know about Gracie's training for I am not a BJJ.
an honest reply, but Terence doesnt accept that.

[Yoshiyahu]

Let me asked you a question Terrence...

Do you practice any Wing Chun forms?

[Hendrik]

Let me asked you a question Terrence...

Do you practice any Wing Chun forms?



Ofcorse Terence does. He is just playing Bad guy and let me play Good guy. :D

[Yoshiyahu]

Ofcorse Terence does. He is just playing Bad guy and let me play Good guy. :D

Hendrik do you practice fighting? Do you actually Spar with your Art?

[Edmund]

Call Dr. Neely or Penn State if you feel you would love to express your belief.


For me,

I know lots of people cure or heal or control thier chronic disease via qigong without western medicine or even when western medicine cant help them.

I tried calling him 3 separate times and emailing him 3 times.

You keep recommending people try talk to him even though I told you he never answers. Where's the **** social etiquette? It's like deliberately giving bad directions. Your pet answer of "call Dr Neely" is just a cop out when you can't actually justify that mystery research as being scientific.

There's a *big* difference between saying you have anecdotes and saying that this lying nutjob website shows scientific experiments that prove something.

I've got anecdotes and scientific research on taiji and qigong as well.

http://cre.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/21/2/99

However the research tends to have far more conservative conclusions than your claims of curing cancer from a different city.

[Hendrik]

I tried calling him 3 separate times and emailing him 3 times.

You keep recommending people try talk to him even though I told you he never answers. Where's the **** social etiquette? It's like deliberately giving bad directions. Your pet answer of "call Dr Neely" is just a cop out when you can't actually justify that mystery research as being scientific.

There's a *big* difference between saying you have anecdotes and saying that this lying nutjob website shows scientific experiments that prove something.

I've got anecdotes and scientific research on taiji and qigong as well.

http://cre.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/21/2/99

However the research tends to have far more conservative conclusions than your claims of curing cancer from a different city.


1, Raise your points with Penn State Univ. instead of me.


I dont claim anything, I only share what I found

from

http://www.zqyxf.com/en/index.asp
to
http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/creative/jixingli.htm
to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C8oFJaSPJ0&feature=PlayList&p=F6590E41B87D70DF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7

you can choose to believe it or critic it or anything that is fine with me, free will world.





2, As for "Where's the **** social etiquette?" what is your etiquette ? read your own previous posts and find out.
Perhaps that is why people dont want to communicate with you?



It is a fact that :

I have personally met and speak with a lady MD from LA who have turmor, She went contact Dr. Neely to verify the "Dr. Neely -- Ji-Xing Li's" research ( as you have read in the website) ; and then fly north to search out Qigong Master Ji-Xing Li to consult him for alternative help for her very serious sickness.


I have also personally asked the asistance of Master Ji-Xing Li who is communicating with Dr. Neely that is it ok to contact Dr. Neely.
She told me YES Dr. Neely will response, as soon as it is a PROPER, POLITE, and Professional communication.


Perhaps you need to think, why people do communicate with you.



BTW. this is a SLT discussion let's focus on the Topic.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik do you practice fighting? Do you actually Spar with your Art?


Havent you ask this question before ?

[Edmund]

1, Raise your points with Penn State Univ. instead of me.


I dont claim anything, I only share what I found

from

http://www.zqyxf.com/en/index.asp
to
http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/creative/jixingli.htm
to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C8oFJaSPJ0&feature=PlayList&p=F6590E41B87D70DF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7

you can choose to believe it or critic it or anything that is fine with me, free will world.





2, As for "Where's the **** social etiquette?" what is your etiquette ? read your own previous posts and find out.
Perhaps that is why people dont want to communicate with you?



It is a fact that :

I have personally met and speak with a lady MD from LA who have turmor, She went contact Dr. Neely to verify the "Dr. Neely -- Ji-Xing Li's" research ( as you have read in the website) ; and then fly north to search out Qigong Master Ji-Xing Li to consult him for alternative help for her very serious sickness.


I have also personally asked the asistance of Master Ji-Xing Li who is communicating with Dr. Neely that is it ok to contact Dr. Neely.
She told me YES Dr. Neely will response, as soon as it is a PROPER, POLITE, and Professional communication.


BTW. this is a SLT discussion let's focus on the Topic.

I am very professional. I said nothing but "have you published any papers about the 2007 PSU experiments because I am interested in getting a copy".

I work in image processing research and the medical images that are on that website are actually the type of images my research in identifying objects could analyze.

Tell you what. If you think I'm not asking the right way, YOU ASK. You think Neely is so easy to get a response from. You contact the guy and get experimental results or publications. I've already tried 3 times. I got grounds to say that don't bother chasing up this guy or believing that website.

They claim they've done all sorts of experiments on that website but not ONE reference to a publication. AND I SEARCHED.

Social etiquette requires I point out that you screwed people around.
You said repeatedly contact Neely when you've never done it yourself AND I told you I couldn't. You said there were papers with results.

Is it some sort of politeness when you told me to go look for stuff that can't be found? I certainly never sent someone to look for a paper I don't even know exists.

If you were actually polite you wouldn't recommend talking to someone that you haven't spoken to. Doing what you did is just blowing people off which is quite rude.

[-木叶-]

Take a step back for a moment and consider what you've written: "Without knowing why we need to do that". How can a FORM give you the knowledge of WHY you need to do that? It can't. A FORM is only a dance. Only function -- these things in actual usage -- can. Someone who can make these things work can show you why you need to do this or that. Or, your opponents can show you why you need to do this or that. But a FORM can't show you since a FORM isn't function (really doing it).



You are not alone -- there are many woos who believe in all kinds of nonsense. Modern science has precluded the existence of qi. So, I'm not "searching" to understand qi, anymore than I am searching to understand fairies (which is another thing people in the past used to believe in).

Ok then, thanks for your replies

[t_niehoff]

Let me asked you a question Terrence...

Do you practice any Wing Chun forms?

Not anymore. The forms are meaningless and pointless beyond being a teaching/learning device. They aren't training. They don't develop skills. Let's say that there exists a bike riding form where someone choreographed the various bike-riding movments to be performed in the air. Should bike riders go on practicing this form everyday for the rest oftheir lives? Or, do you think that once you know the movements and can ride the bike, then to continue to do that form would be a waste of time?

[t_niehoff]

1
According to Terence's posts,

As soon as it is not Gracie, then all others' practice needs to be Scientifically Prove. other wise it is misleading.


No, Hendrik it isn't JUST the Gracies. I listen to people who know what they are talking about. How do I know? From their results. I listen to profven fighters and fight trainers. Just like I listen to the whole scientific community -- people who know much, much more than you or I do. What I don't do is ignore them because they do not subscribe to my POV. That's what you do.



See,
Terence accept whatever he has heard from Gracie and by default that it the TRUTH ;
but required all others to be scientific proven.


The Gracies are saying nothing that most reputable fight trainers say or what most sport/motor skill science experts say. You don't listen because they repudiate what YOU say.



Thus, Gracie can do that and it is the Truth. While Mas Oyama has to proven scientifically. hahaha


Oyama hasn't been proved scientifically. You make stuff like that up. This is why you are intellectually dishonest. You say stuff you know isn't true to prove your point.

You keep saying the Gracies (and by extension almost every other working, proven fight trainer) arewrong, yet they are the ones producing results, producing most of the world-class fighters in the world. They use the same training method as boxers, wrestlers, samboists, muay thia, etc. They are all wrong, but Hendrik is right. Just like the entire scientific community is wrong but Hendrik is right.



2, As for Mas Oyama training, yes, I know that because I am a Kyokushin.
Dont know about Gracie's training for I am not a BJJ.
an honest reply, but Terence doesnt accept that.

Interestingly, the head of Kyokushin, Jon Bluming, 10th Dan, doesn't believe as you do. I guess that's just another case of he's wrong and Hendrik's right.

It seems the whole world of science and fighters are wrong and Hendrik is right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jon is not the head of the Kyokushinkai, any of its IKO, though he is a 10th dan in Kyokushin.
He has his own association, a very fine one in which they combine Judo and Kyokushin, called the Kyokushin Budokai.
And apart from Jon saying that Oyama was the "showboat figurehead" and Kurosaki was the actual fighter in the early days of Kyokushin ( which is quite correct), most of the MARTIAL stuff he believes, so did Oyama.

[t_niehoff]

Jon is not the head of the Kyokushinkai, any of its IKO, though he is a 10th dan in Kyokushin.
He has his own association, a very fine one in which they combine Judo and Kyokushin, called the Kyokushin Budokai.
And apart from Jon saying that Oyama was the "showboat figurehead" and Kurosaki was the actual fighter in the early days of Kyokushin ( which is quite correct), most of the MARTIAL stuff he believes, so did Oyama.

Bluming has been quite vocal in the past about chi/qi being nonsense. Not only that but he is -- and was long ago -- a firm believer and practitioner/trainer of MMA (having a BB in judo from the kodokan).

Since you seem to know a bit about the subject, can you tell me some known fighters that Oyama EVER fought and defeated?

[Hendrik]

I am very professional. I said nothing but "have you published any papers about the 2007 PSU experiments because I am interested in getting a copy".

I work in image processing research and the medical images that are on that website are actually the type of images my research in identifying objects could analyze.

Tell you what. If you think I'm not asking the right way, YOU ASK. You think Neely is so easy to get a response from. You contact the guy and get experimental results or publications. I've already tried 3 times. I got grounds to say that don't bother chasing up this guy or believing that website.

They claim they've done all sorts of experiments on that website but not ONE reference to a publication. AND I SEARCHED.

Social etiquette requires I point out that you screwed people around.
You said repeatedly contact Neely when you've never done it yourself AND I told you I couldn't. You said there were papers with results.

Is it some sort of politeness when you told me to go look for stuff that can't be found? I certainly never sent someone to look for a paper I don't even know exists.

If you were actually polite you wouldn't recommend talking to someone that you haven't spoken to. Doing what you did is just blowing people off which is quite rude.



Thank you for your social etiguette opinion, and your accusation / twisting words.
Or, you have never be able to comprehend what I have posts.

Sure, blame others on anything you dont understand , cant make sense off, and cant do.



strange right? The facts are
how come people response to my questions from ---> master Ji-Xing Li, his assitance, ..... and master Ji-Xing Li introduce me to his friends researcher in the university in person..... but not you? that you have to figure out.



I have asked master Li's assistance for clearance to contact Dr. Neely as I post previously, and if you cant make the contact. Dont blame me.


your problems are not my problems. You can PM or post me months ago to ask for help while you have not succesfull to contact Dr. Neely, I could call master Li's assitance to bridge the gap for you with Dr Neely.

But Now after these accusation. sorry I have no interest to help you.


There is no need for further communication here because I too really tired of your self-rightousness, rude, and blaming others bahaviour. Read your own posts that is the evidence.

[t_niehoff]

Thank you for your social etiguette opinion, and your accusation / twisting words.
Or, you have never be able to comprehend what I have posts.

Sure, blame others on anything you dont understand , cant make sense off, and cant do.



strange right? The facts are
how come people response to my questions from master Ji-Xing Li, his assitance, ..... and master Ji-Xing Li introduce me to his friends researcher in the university in person..... but not you? that you have to figure out.

see your problems are not my problems. I have asked master Li's assistance for your clearance to contact Dr. Neely. and if you cant make the contact.
Dont blame me.


There is no need for further communication here because I too really tired of your self-rightousness, rude, and blaming others bahaviour. Read your own posts that is the evidence.

Hendrik being intellectually dishonest again.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik being intellectually dishonest again.


Terence,

Stop playing God for what you are clueless and dont understand.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bluming has been quite vocal in the past about chi/qi being nonsense. Not only that but he is -- and was long ago -- a firm believer and practitioner/trainer of MMA (having a BB in judo from the kodokan).

Since you seem to know a bit about the subject, can you tell me some known fighters that Oyama EVER fought and defeated?

Bluming was always critical of chi, yes, I recall he once said that he never saw Chi stop a punch in the nose, LOL !!

RE: Oyama.
I don't recall the names of anyone he ever fought, though he did go to jail for killing that gangster with one punch.
Supposedly he also fought a Thai fighter and KO'd him, but then again, who hasn't?
:D
Those that did spar Oyama have no delusions of what he could do.
No doubt that Kurozaki was THE fighter of that organization before he left and after him there were a few that took up the mantle.

[t_niehoff]

Terence,

Stop playing God for what you are clueless.

I'm not playing God. I am pointing out that you are continuing to be intellectually dishonest. In case you don't know what it means to be intellectually dishonest, it means to say things that either you know or reasonably should know aren't true to support your arguments.

For example, you know that Neely won't respond to emails or phone calls (Edmund has told you that) yet you continue to tell people to contact him if they question his "research". That's intellectually dishonest.

Another example, you cite Neely webpage as "proof", yet you know or reasonably should know since I pointed it out to you, that using Johns Hopkins University's criteria for evaluating info on the web shows that his website is highly suspect, and Edmunnd has shown that his "research" hasn't been published or peer reviewed or etc. Yet you continue to cite it. That's intellectually dishonest.

Furthermore, instead of admitting these things, you try to distract people with all kinds of red herrings and other irrelevent arguments. That's intellectually dishonest.

But, I guess that I shouldn't be surprised. When you don't really have any significant evidence to support your view, and when rationality repudiates your view, all you have left is to be intellectually dishonest.

[t_niehoff]

Bluming was always critical of chi, yes, I recall he once said that he never saw Chi stop a punch in the nose, LOL !!


If that's the case, then why does Hendrik keep citing Oyama as support for Hendrik's qi theories? Is this a case of qi-induced psychosis? ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

If that's the case, then why does Hendrik keep citing Oyama as support for Hendrik's qi theories? Is this a case of qi-induced psychosis? ;)

Well, Oyama was a huge fan of Qi related relaxation exercises and spoke many times of Ki and how to use Ki in the MA, though typically it was based on the okinawan view of Ki from his Goju background, though later on he did "add" standing qigong from Bagua and Xingi.

[JPinAZ]

T,

Being a lawyer, you'd think you'd know by now you can't win an argument with a crazy, pajama wearing, head in the clouds nut-job like Hendrik... but sure is fun to watch you try! :o

[Yoshiyahu]

Terence,

Stop playing God for what you are clueless and dont understand.

Hendrik do you fight with your art?

If No, then how can we take anything you say seriously?

You have a man who has spent twenty to thirty years reading about how to fly a plane and land it. (Hendrik)....An you have another man who has actually flown a plan for twenty to thirty years. (Terrence)


Now Hendrik which one would you intrust your life with in a plane? The guy with decades of reading or the guy with decades of flying!!!

The reader may be more knowledgeable but the flyer with the experience is more skilled.

Which one do you suggest we trust Hendrik!!!

The reader or flyer?

Which one are you?

[Hendrik]

Well, Oyama was a huge fan of Qi related relaxation exercises and spoke many times of Ki and how to use Ki in the MA, though typically it was based on the okinawan view of Ki from his Goju background, though later on he did "add" standing qigong from Bagua and Xingi.

Yup.
and also taikiken/yichuan







Master Oyama maintained contact with many Japanese budo masters like Kenichi Sawai, the founder of the taiki ken school. The bloody exchanges between the students of these two schools are legendary today. Many of Master Oyama’s students also became students of Master Sawai.

http://munndialarts.com/english/index.php?s=nka





During Hanshi's time training in Japan he was also priviledged to train under Kenichi Sawai Sensei in Taiki-ken, on the insistence of Kancho Oyama who was also a friend and student of Sawai, and Hanshi still draws on that experience to this day when explaining the more meditative aspects of karate. Hanshi Arneil was also adopted by then Kancho Oyama in order ......

http://www.tonbridge-karate.co.uk/hanshi.html



taikiken/yichuan

http://www.munndialarts.com/english/index.php?s=kenichi


Terence certainly dont like the idea that Wang Xiang Cai A TCMA is a world class of the world class. But, it doesnt matter how Terence fantasying.

Terence you have not seen it yet. hahahaha.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik do you fight with your art?

If No, then how can we take anything you say seriously?

You have a man who has spent twenty to thirty years reading about how to fly a plane and land it. (Hendrik)....An you have another man who has actually flown a plan for twenty to thirty years. (Terrence)


Now Hendrik which one would you intrust your life with in a plane? The guy with decades of reading or the guy with decades of flying!!!

The reader may be more knowledgeable but the flyer with the experience is more skilled.

Which one do you suggest we trust Hendrik!!!

The reader or flyer?

Which one are you?









do you fight with your art?

how smart is asking a kyokushin this question?



You have a man who has spent twenty to thirty years reading about how to fly a plane and land it.

Doesnt applied to a Kyokushin.






Which one do you suggest we trust Hendrik!!!


Trust whoever you like.





Which one are you?

it doesnt matter.

[Yoshiyahu]

how smart is asking a kyokushin this question?




Doesnt applied to a Kyokushin.








Do you fight with your Kung Fu or Chinese Martial Arts?

I am not concern about your Japanese art. Since you mostly comment on the chinese theories!!!

Do you fight with your Chinese Art?

[anerlich]

T, while agreeing with you that Hendrik can't construct a logical argument, or even an intelligible paragraph, I think it's a bit much to discount Oyama because he "never fought anyone well known".

You can't accuse Kyokushin guys of being theoreticians. They have full contact tournaments and fight during their training.

By your logic, you shouldn't bother continuing with Robert Chu. He's never fought any well-known fighter either.

NB I respect Robert. I just use him as an example of where your arguments run out of gas.

[Hendrik]

Do you fight with your Kung Fu or Chinese Martial Arts?

I am not concern about your Japanese art. Since you mostly comment on the chinese theories!!!

Do you fight with your Chinese Art?



Is a front kick a Japanese art, Chinese art, Muay Thai?

Which front kick you kick with? Japanese, Chinese, Muay Thai?

[Hendrik]

You can't accuse Kyokushin guys of being theoreticians. They have full contact tournaments and fight during their training.
.

For Terence only Gracie is fighter and Scientific.


But,

have Terence EVER sign an accident injury or death liability waiver as some Kyokushin Tournament needs to sign?

if Yes, Which competitions and where?

if No, there goes Terence's Figthing fantasy.

[anerlich]

For Terence only Gracie is fighter and Scientific.

I don't think he every said ONLY the Gracies.



have Terence EVER sign an accident injury or death liability waiver as some Kyokushin Tournament needs to sign?


if Yes, Which competitions and where?

Every combat sport event asks you to sign waivers, unless they are run by morons. Even non-combat contact sports usually do.

I've signed such waivers in the past and fought in combat sport events. Do I win?


if No, there goes Terence's Figthing fantasy

He MAY have fantasies, but yours appear far greater than his in scale, number, and sheer lunacy.

[t_niehoff]

T, while agreeing with you that Hendrik can't construct a logical argument, or even an intelligible paragraph, I think it's a bit much to discount Oyama because he "never fought anyone well known".


I am not "discounting" Oyama. But I'm not worshipping him either. My question is legitimate as I am wondering what his actual level in terms of fighting skills were. Do you have a problem with that?



You can't accuse Kyokushin guys of being theoreticians. They have full contact tournaments and fight during their training.


You're putting words into my mouth. I'm not discounting kyokushinkai guys at all, and I never said they were theoreticians. I have great respect for kyokyshinkai. Maybe you should actually read what I write.


By your logic, you shouldn't bother continuing with Robert Chu. He's never fought any well-known fighter either.

NB I respect Robert. I just use him as an example of where your arguments run out of gas.

You don't seem to understand "logic" at all -- I am not, like Hendrik, holding Robert out to be an authority as he does Oyama. The most important thing Robert shared with me me was to "let application (fighting) be your sifu." I don't base my views on Robert's views, hold Robert as an authority, or cite Robert to prove a point. Nor do I engage in hero worship.

You don't seem to understand my argument, so I don't think you can say when or if they run out of gas.

[t_niehoff]

For Terence only Gracie is fighter and Scientific.


But,

have Terence EVER sign an accident injury or death liability waiver as some Kyokushin Tournament needs to sign?

if Yes, Which competitions and where?

if No, there goes Terence's Figthing fantasy.

Hendrik is being intellectually dishonest again.

[Edmund]

your problems are not my problems. You can PM or post me months ago to ask for help while you have not succesfull to contact Dr. Neely, I could call master Li's assitance to bridge the gap for you with Dr Neely.

But Now after these accusation. sorry I have no interest to help you.


There is no need for further communication here because I too really tired of your self-rightousness, rude, and blaming others bahaviour. Read your own posts that is the evidence.

Evidence of? I looked for scientific proof exactly where you told me to look. I could not get scientific proof.

I looked for papers by Neely. I tried to contact him *enough* times.

When this claim came up before, you said skeptics weren't looking for proof. Now I have looked and found lots of papers on research into qigong. Just nothing backing up your qigong sifu and his webpage of graphs.

I put aside skepticism and looked for research and you think my behaviour is bad.
Having looked quite a lot for evidence, I have grounds to complain about the scientific proof on that website. You can call it rude to complain but you pointed me to that site and said there's evidence.

[Edmund]

Well, Oyama was a huge fan of Qi related relaxation exercises and spoke many times of Ki and how to use Ki in the MA, though typically it was based on the okinawan view of Ki from his Goju background, though later on he did "add" standing qigong from Bagua and Xingi.

Well it's one thing to advocate qigong as a relaxation exercise or even use Ki in MA. Claiming to cure cancer or heart disease is something else.

It's a mistake to say Oyama believes in doing qigong therefore it justifies Hendrik's qi claims.

[anerlich]

Do you have a problem with that?


Of course not, LOL. You really are a pugnacious and temperamental little biatch.


You don't seem to understand my argument, so I don't think you can say when or if they run out of gas.


Probably all that noise in with the signal. Sorry I bothered you.

[t_niehoff]

Of course not, LOL. You really are a pugnacious and temperamental little biatch.


Just to be clear: I ask if you have a problem with my question and you respond by name-calling.



Probably all that noise in with the signal. Sorry I bothered you.

You don't bother me. Nor does it bother me when people present arguments against things I never said or views I don't hold. It might be the "noise in the signal" but I'd think that if the message wasn't loud and clear then a person would ask for clairification. But after rereading what I wrote for clarity, I don't think that was the problem.

[t_niehoff]

Well it's one thing to advocate qigong as a relaxation exercise or even use Ki in MA. Claiming to cure cancer or heart disease is something else.

It's a mistake to say Oyama believes in doing qigong therefore it justifies Hendrik's qi claims.

Hendrik likes to point to various people from the PAST as authorities and as evidence of qi and qi gong. And I'll grant that people from the past may have believed in such things -- but their BELIEF in qi doesn't prove qi exists or anything other than they believed it. I'm sure lots of asians believed it and continue to -- that's part of the culture. Lots of people believe in astrology, that doesn't prove it is valid.

Modern science as a whole, from all of western medicical sciences to physics, have repeatedly shown that qi doesn't exist and have demonstrated that if it were it would violate the laws of physics. Look, if qi were so pervasive and easily manipulated as the Hendrik and his ilk believe, then it would be very easy to show, demonstrate, and prove. And so, would be accepted by the scientific community like everything else that can be shown to be true as science is evidence-based. Produce the Yeti and science will accept its existence -- because you cannot deny genuine, solid evidence. Only there is no such evidence for qi, and all the evidence and everything we know TODAY about how the universe and the human body REALLY WORKS repudiates such nonsense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well it's one thing to advocate qigong as a relaxation exercise or even use Ki in MA. Claiming to cure cancer or heart disease is something else.

It's a mistake to say Oyama believes in doing qigong therefore it justifies Hendrik's qi claims.

Oyama's, or anyone elses, Qi claims are just that, theirs, they justify NO ONE elses.

[t_niehoff]

Oyama's, or anyone elses, Qi claims are just that, theirs, they justify NO ONE elses.

The whole qi paradigm is an integral part of asian culture. So, it is not surprising that when someone steeped in that culture looks for ways to expalin or understand things that they would use that paradigm. If all you know is the TCM model of the world, then you're going to use that. But that doesn't make that model or paradigm true or factual or even very useful -- it's just all they had on hand. In a similar way, Useshiba referenced the "philosophical teachings" of the Ōmoto-kyō religion to explain aikido but most aikido practitioners couldn't make much sense of these.

[Hendrik]

This post in only For those who know and have recognized the Qi platform, it is a platform which exist in parallel with physical and mental platform.

there are lots of benift in term of health, body conditioning/transformation, martial applications after one recognized, known, and cultivate this platform.

However, one Must know the condition of the physical body and mind platform to have a stable handling of this platform.


Qi platform is to be recognized, Known, and utilized. Certainly not about philosophical understanding at all.



and

SLT cultivation in the 1850 address this platform. missing this platform also means missing certain components of the mind and physical body platform.

and the first thing to go after the missing of the Qi platform is the fast accelerate Jin or Chuk Ken or Keng Ken. For those type of Ken is not stable when trying to cultivate with the general handling of the physical platform alone.

when there is no Chuk Ken there is not much left in WCK.


IE according to the ancient description, having Chuck Ken is be able to activate power generation and issuinf force at least double the speed of ordinary power generation.

Thus, WCK has advantageous in close range because of this Chuk Ken. Without this Chuk Ken WCK doesnt have much advantage for it will not be able to intercept the incoming force as needed or not able to execute its famous WCK trade-mark the "half point".


BTW. Nope, the dynamic tension such as in the Hung Gar iron wire or SPM or Southern Nam Kuen or Even the Fujian White Crane type of method doesnt develop Keng Ken or Chuc Ken type of power.



Thus, the Saga of WCK goes on....

[sanjuro_ronin]

BTW. Nope, the dynamic tension such as in the Hung Gar iron wire or SPM or Southern Nam Kuen or Even the Fujian White Crane type of method doesnt develop Keng Ken or Chuc Ken. type of power.

The Iron wire is not suppose to develop explosive Jin, neither are the "hard qigong" exercises of SPM, FWC and such that you are probably referring to.
They were not designed for that, there are other exercises done to develop "jin".

Although to say that SPM doesn't have "jin" is quote a bold statement.

[Hendrik]

The Iron wire is not suppose to develop explosive Jin, neither are the "hard qigong" exercises of SPM, FWC and such that you are probably referring to.
They were not designed for that, there are other exercises done to develop "jin".

Although to say that SPM doesn't have "jin" is quote a bold statement.


sorry my typo opps on the "full stop" between "ken" and type of power.
as my post said, It is a different type of Jin not that SPM or Iron wire....ect doesnt have jin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sorry my typo opps on the "full stop" between "ken" and type of power.
as my post said, It is a different type of Jin not that SPM or Iron wire....ect doesnt have jin.

Understood, thanks for clearing that up.

[Hendrik]

Understood, thanks for clearing that up.

No problem.

Also compare with 1850, as we trace, there are major components missing in todays evolution version of SLT/SNT. That cause big problems...

[JPinAZ]

No problem.

Also compare with 1850, as we trace, there are major components missing in todays evolution version of SLT/SNT. That cause big problems...

Hendrik,

do you speak for ALL WCK when you say things like this, or just your line of white crane wing chun?

[Vajramusti]

Generalizations about paradigms.
History and philosophy of science are fairly extensive subjects. Chit chat forum entries are no way
to deal with such complex subjects.

Generalizations about wing chun.
Even otherwise good posters make mistakes when they try to generalize about what is wrong or right about all of wing chun.Better to stick to what you know .

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

do you speak for ALL WCK when you say things like this, or just your line of white crane wing chun?


Why are you got so nervous? hahahaha


we today knows how things evolve and know who make up what... it is just a matter of time everyone will be educated and know what is going on.

[Hendrik]

Joy,



Just my view, no one has to take what I am posting as the Truth and argue.



looking with an anceint view, the whole thing can be analogy to today's mis-information Zen which is "a relegion of wanting to create something" instead of " return to the buddha nature or let go of even the intention of doing nothing." from the true Buddhism.


we know today
for those who claim to be older version of WCK (from Shao Lin hall and /or core with the Zen teaching ) doesnt hold water because all of these claim and books, none of them present a True Zen/Buddhism teaching and None of them practice Zen or Buddhism.

In fact, what they present has become a sollid evident to prove thier non existance in the Zen/Buddhism realm. Thus, no matter how much they keep changing thier his-story or making more story, it doesnt matter because the core practice is off the target. and infact, it is leading to an opposite direction going from " return to not a thing into creat something".


Thus, similarly, the practice of SLT/SNT got evolve and certain components are missing for a certain lineage. if things continous on then SLT/SNT will de-effective more and more until it lost.






For example, there is a concept of WCner's arm are like a sickle in ancient WCK. as a sickle it cut whatever touching its curved blade. That is not longer there for most today even though the description still passing within the older generation WCners' club, but 99% of young WCners will never heard about the Sickle.

in the past decades, some have introduced some types of Nam Kuen or Shao Lin or Hung gar Kiu Sau into WCK and claiming it as an older art of all WCK.

however, since there is no Sickle there.

So, what these people introduce is either an Older art which is not WCK or
a new evolusion of WCK instead of an older version of WCK.

where else the art of Sickle has lost.

[JPinAZ]

Why are you got so nervous? hahahaha

Nervous? about what, something you said?!?! Yeah, I'm scared about the constant nonsense you spew out here every day. That is funny :rolleyes:

But I'd think you are nervous the way you edit your posts 3 and 4 times every time you post..


we today knows how things evolve and know who make up what... it is just a matter of time everyone will be educated and know what is going on.

'We' do? who is this 'we'? and what are you talking about who made something up? What, your white crane wing chun kung fu?

Or are you talking about this?


Thus, similarly, the practice of SLT/SNT got evolve and certain components are missing for a certain lineage. if things continous on then SLT/SNT will de-effective more and more until it lost.

Yeah, like what, some sickle shape? Are you talking about a technique missing from 'some' SNT? What the hell does that prove?
If you really believe SNT/SLT is about shapes and techniques, you really have lost your mind. And, the only thing you prove once again is, you know nothing about WCK or SNT except what's in your newly made up white crane wing chun. Never heard of that till you...

[-木叶-]

Joy,
Thus, similarly, the practice of SLT/SNT got evolve and certain components are missing for a certain lineage. if things continous on then SLT/SNT will de-effective more and more until it lost.


Hi,

Actually Wing Chun sifu will encourage students, to apply the knowledge they have learnt, and also to discard moves which are not applicable in real life. Also, new moves will be added into the form, like the Gung Sao.

Therefore, thats why, in Grandmaster Yip Man's lineage, Siu Nim Tao has an additional Gung sao move, due to an injury which his student, Grandmaster Wong Shun Leung sustained during a fight will another Iron Palm Exponent. Also, GM Wong's wooden dummy has additional dummy moves, with permission from Grandmaster Yip Man.

This explains why many Wing Chun practitioners also view Wing Chun as a fighting science, a tradition and mind set passed down from Grandmaster Yip Man.

Hope it helps.

[t_niehoff]

Hi,
Actually Wing Chun sifu will encourage students, to apply the knowledge they have learnt, and also to discard moves which are not applicable in real life. Also, new moves will be added into the form, like the Gung Sao.


How can anyone know what moves are applicable or when or how they are applicable without fighting?

While you're at it, why don't you tell me which "wing chun sifu" are fighting - let alone regularly - with any competent fighters to find out?

Are YOU? If not, then you can't have a clue.



Therefore, thats why, in Grandmaster Yip Man's lineage, Siu Nim Tao has an additional Gung sao move, due to an injury which his student, Grandmaster Wong Shun Leung sustained during a fight will another Iron Palm Exponent. Also, GM Wong's wooden dummy has additional dummy moves, with permission from Grandmaster Yip Man.


Why do people fall for these stories? Do they ever stop to THINK about them -- and see that they really make no sense?



This explains why many Wing Chun practitioners also view Wing Chun as a fighting science, a tradition and mind set passed down from Grandmaster Yip Man.

Hope it helps.

WCK isn't a "fighting science" -- it isn't even about fighting UNLESS you are fighting.

WCK isn't ANYTHING other THAN WHAT YOU MAKE IT.

[-木叶-]

How can anyone know what moves are applicable or when or how they are applicable without fighting?

While you're at it, why don't you tell me which "wing chun sifu" are fighting - let alone regularly - with any competent fighters to find out?

Are YOU? If not, then you can't have a clue.



Why do people fall for these stories? Do they ever stop to THINK about them -- and see that they really make no sense?



WCK isn't a "fighting science" -- it isn't even about fighting UNLESS you are fighting.

WCK isn't ANYTHING other THAN WHAT YOU MAKE IT.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. What i wrote is what my sifu teach me.
And i just wanted to share the knowledge. It is up to everyone to discuss.
I am not forcing them on anyone, you know.

Hope it helps.

[t_niehoff]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. What i wrote is what my sifu teach me.
And i just wanted to share the knowledge. It is up to everyone to discuss.
I am not forcing them on anyone, you know.

Hope it helps.

I know that you are writing what your sifu has TOLD you. THAT is perhaps the biggest problem in WCK and TCMAs.

[Yoshiyahu]

Hendrik so how does it actually assist you in a real fight?

If I attack you Hendrik will this knowledge allow you to prevail?



Joy,



Just my view, no one has to take what I am posting as the Truth and argue.



looking with an anceint view, the whole thing can be analogy to today's mis-information Zen which is "a relegion of wanting to create something" instead of " return to the buddha nature or let go of even the intention of doing nothing." from the true Buddhism.


we know today
for those who claim to be older version of WCK (from Shao Lin hall and /or core with the Zen teaching ) doesnt hold water because all of these claim and books, none of them present a True Zen/Buddhism teaching and None of them practice Zen or Buddhism.

In fact, what they present has become a sollid evident to prove thier non existance in the Zen/Buddhism realm. Thus, no matter how much they keep changing thier his-story or making more story, it doesnt matter because the core practice is off the target. and infact, it is leading to an opposite direction going from " return to not a thing into creat something".


Thus, similarly, the practice of SLT/SNT got evolve and certain components are missing for a certain lineage. if things continous on then SLT/SNT will de-effective more and more until it lost.






For example, there is a concept of WCner's arm are like a sickle in ancient WCK. as a sickle it cut whatever touching its curved blade. That is not longer there for most today even though the description still passing within the older generation WCners' club, but 99% of young WCners will never heard about the Sickle.

in the past decades, some have introduced some types of Nam Kuen or Shao Lin or Hung gar Kiu Sau into WCK and claiming it as an older art of all WCK.

however, since there is no Sickle there.

So, what these people introduce is either an Older art which is not WCK or
a new evolusion of WCK instead of an older version of WCK.

where else the art of Sickle has lost.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik so how does it actually assist you in a real fight?

If I attack you Hendrik will this knowledge allow you to prevail?


It help me to not get into a fight. and not wasting time speculate on if this or that.

[Hendrik]

I know that you are writing what your sifu has TOLD you. THAT is perhaps the biggest problem in WCK and TCMAs.

Honesty is not the biggest problem in WCK but an action need to be honor.

Playing WCK's and TCMA's righteous savior with a mind full of BJJ is the only solution and an ignorance mind is the biggest problem.

[t_niehoff]

looking with an anceint view, the whole thing can be analogy to today's mis-information Zen which is "a relegion of wanting to create something" instead of " return to the buddha nature or let go of even the intention of doing nothing." from the true Buddhism.


That's a really poor analogy IMO.



we know today
for those who claim to be older version of WCK (from Shao Lin hall and /or core with the Zen teaching ) doesnt hold water because all of these claim and books, none of them present a True Zen/Buddhism teaching and None of them practice Zen or Buddhism.


Those claims don't hold water because they cannot show with independently verifiable proof their lineage back to Shaolin.



In fact, what they present has become a sollid evident to prove thier non existance in the Zen/Buddhism realm. Thus, no matter how much they keep changing thier his-story or making more story, it doesnt matter because the core practice is off the target. and infact, it is leading to an opposite direction going from " return to not a thing into creat something".


WCK has nothing to do with ch'an.



Thus, similarly, the practice of SLT/SNT got evolve and certain components are missing for a certain lineage. if things continous on then SLT/SNT will de-effective more and more until it lost.


Your view is based on the incorrect notion that for the SLT/SNT to be "correct" it must contain certain, specific (and in your opinion, required) elements. There is no such thing as a "correct" SLT/SNT. Just as there is no "correct" way to practice bike riding motions in the air. WCK isn't form practice. Whether you need certain elements in your fighting you can't determine from form practice. You can only determine that by fighting.



For example, there is a concept of WCner's arm are like a sickle in ancient WCK. as a sickle it cut whatever touching its curved blade. That is not longer there for most today even though the description still passing within the older generation WCners' club, but 99% of young WCners will never heard about the Sickle.

in the past decades, some have introduced some types of Nam Kuen or Shao Lin or Hung gar Kiu Sau into WCK and claiming it as an older art of all WCK.

however, since there is no Sickle there.

So, what these people introduce is either an Older art which is not WCK or
a new evolusion of WCK instead of an older version of WCK.

where else the art of Sickle has lost.

I agree with you that there are all kinds of misrepresentations about what was historically a part of the WCK curriculum. And people do falsely claim to have "older" or "original" versions of the art (I always wonder about the common sense of people who believe these stories or would want that even if it were true).

On the other hand, just because something was historically a part of the WCK curriculum doesn't necessarily make it vital or important. For a martial art to remain viable, it must remain alive, constantly growing, changing, and evolving.

[t_niehoff]

Honesty is not the biggest problem in WCK but an action need to be honor.

Playing WCK's and TCMA's righteous savior with a mind full of BJJ is the only solution and an ignorance mind is the biggest problem.


You misinterpreted what I said. I said taking your sifu's word for things is the biggest problem in WCK. People accept the things they are told without critically analyzing them and without thinking. And they parrot these things back as though they are truths.

Ignorance is not a problem; we are all, to varying degrees, ignorant. Certainty is the real problem. Particularly faith -- belief in something despite the evidence. We should never believe things on insufficient evidence. Doubt and skepticism is what propels us forward.

[Hendrik]

You misinterpreted what I said. I said taking your sifu's word for things is the biggest problem in WCK. People accept the things they are told without critically analyzing them and without thinking. And they parrot these things back as though they are truths.

Ignorance is not a problem; we are all, to varying degrees, ignorant. Certainty is the real problem. Particularly faith -- belief in something despite the evidence. We should never believe things on insufficient evidence. Doubt and skepticism is what propels us forward.


words but words. hahaha

[t_niehoff]

words but words. hahaha

Apparently they were words you had no answer for.

[Yoshiyahu]

words but words. hahaha

Hendrik can you take the elements of Sil Lim Tao and apply them fighting?

[t_niehoff]

words but words. hahaha

For Hendrik: http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/oh_no_its_making_well_reasoned?utm_source=b-section

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know that you are writing what your sifu has TOLD you. THAT is perhaps the biggest problem in WCK and TCMAs.

A long the lines of taking a preachers word for what the bible says instead of reading it yourself.

[Hendrik]

Apparently they were words you had no answer for.


isnt it wasting of life to answer someone's deluded fantasy? hahaha

[Hendrik]

Hendrik can you take the elements of Sil Lim Tao and apply them fighting?


What is Sil LIm Tao for?

[t_niehoff]

isnt it wasting of life to answer someone's deluded fantasy? hahaha


No, Hendrik. That's why I continue to try to get you to see reason.

[Hendrik]

No, Hendrik. That's why I continue to try to get you to see reason.



Sure, no different that trying to have others convert to your religion. hahaha

[t_niehoff]

Sure, no different that trying to have others convert to your religion. hahaha

No, trying to get someone to see reason, i.e., to be rational, is very different than trying to convert them to a religion. For many, like you, martial art is like a religion -- it is a faith-based endeavor, and tied to a cultural world-view. And I think that you see yourself as a defender of "the faith." This is where we differ. I don't think WCK or any martial art should be faith-based or tied to an out-dated and false world-view but instead be evidence-based (the "evidence" being of results in fighting) with a realistic worldview.

[Hendrik]

No, trying to get someone to see reason,

i.e., to be rational, is very different than trying to convert them to a religion.

For many, like you, martial art is like a religion -- it is a faith-based endeavor, and tied to a cultural world-view.

And I think that you see yourself as a defender of "the faith."

This is where we differ.

I don't think WCK or any martial art should be faith-based or tied to an out-dated and false world-view but instead be evidence-based (the "evidence" being of results in fighting) with a realistic worldview.


1, that is what you think that is not what I am. too bad.

2, "faith" based? you are the one who bring up Gracie and accepted his so called Subsconcious learning. I dont. I actually dont buy those.

3, also, how scientific are you believing the so called Subsconcious learning while keeping preaching Scientific proof? that goes your scientific mantra which you always use as a tool to down play the Chinese martial art or Qi development in our convernient .

4, read your post, you dont even know what you are facing but keep jump into conclusion.

Thus, isnt it similar to those who push religion ? hahaha. that is what it is. Religion.


BTW. I careless on Religion and your intelecturized catagorization. You cant make your SLT work that is your problem not other. Certainly not mine.

What is SLT? you dont even have a clue. to be real blunt but honest.

[t_niehoff]

1, that is what you think that is not what I am. too bad.


Yes, that is your view. You even begin many of your posts with "I have heard . . . " (faith-based) as opposed to "this is what I have found works in fighting" (evidence-based).




2, "faith" based? you are the one who bring up Gracie and accepted his so called Subsconcious learning. I dont. I actually dont buy those.

3, also, how scientific are you believing the so called Subsconcious learning while keeping preaching Scientific proof? that goes your scientific mantra which you always use as a tool to down play the Chinese martial art or Qi development in our convernient .

4, read your post, you dont even know what you are facing but keep jump into conclusion.

Thus, isnt it similar to those who push religion ? hahaha. that is what it is. Religion.

I listen to the Gracies, just like I listen to other fighters and fight trainers who have consistently produced many fighters. That is NOT faith-based. I only listen to them because of the results they have produced. Their results tell me that they are worth listening to; they're results PROVE that they know what they are talking about.

Your views, on the other hand, are faith-based because you've never seen them produce any significant results (except for stories). You believe in them despite the lack of results and despite the fact that other things (like the modern way of training) regularly and consistently produces better results than the TCMA model of training.

You don't care about science -- if you did, then the FACT that the entire scientific community as a whole rejects qi's existence and the whole qi paradigm as nonsense would make you reconsider your views.

[Hendrik]

You don't care about science -- if you did, then the FACT that the entire scientific community as a whole rejects qi's existence and the whole qi paradigm as nonsense would make you reconsider your views.


again, jump gun. hahaha.

Who give a damm on what you said as soon as one can make the process work with repeatability and reproduceability.

Who care about your Terence SCIENCE-ology approval. it means nothing for those who can make Force Vectors and Qi works. Too bad you dont know.

[Hendrik]

For those who want to know what is SLT in the 1850 via my eyes,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBfy-MNgtoY&feature=related

http://members.tripod.com/~Paul_Kirby/appletbezier/Surface.html


Click on different surface and curve.



Yup, SLT /SNT is a 4 D (3 D + Time) force vectors trajectory machine which train one to familiar with the 4 D force vectors trajectory, acceleration, neutralization, and balancing.


What faith? what scientific according to Terence hahaha. It is all about Technology Do you get it? BTW. one also dont need Some one with big name or the world class to tell one what to do like Terence.


One can be as Dumb as the Dummy for testing car collision, and still know.

if one dont know the Trajectory, cant produce it, Cant repeat it. cant handle it. One doesnt know a thing.

Terence Wake up on your Science this and that. I dont deal with those. I deal with Nano technology. hahahaha wake up to the high tech world.


and stop asked me those fighting fighting stupid questions. When one have a Neuclear reactor /accelerator who give a damm on fighting. but NUKing! :D


so, for you all who love SLT/SNT,
why think those YJKYM why think those Tan Bong Fok....... rip off those shape and image which covered the machine. Look in side it with High Tech 4 D trajectory only do anything it make sense. instead of argueing the 30/70 50/50 the concave chest......etc. and just totally off the target.


You dont like my post? ignore it, please.

[Hendrik]

Equation is like the Kuen Kuit, too tedious for today's world

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjVVZn_V3zE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6g_uq4CLAg&feature=related
http://my.execpc.com/~culp/rockets/rckt_eqn.html


Use a simulator.
http://my.execpc.com/~culp/Launcher/Launcher.html


Yup. I dont give a damm on what Terence's Science is about because I run the 4 D force vectors analysis/design simulator to verify what is what.

You want to speak Jin? Lik? Grounding? acceleration? neutralization....easy.
You want to know if your system /style will get your a$$ woop or beat the hell out of your opponents?
just a clik in today's high tech simulation world.


Terence, you are 100 years out of date, inefficient and wasting time too. delude by the skin and never ever being able to look under the Skin to see the real face.

See, I dont defend anyone or any art, just to tell you I care only on what works and the process to make it works or makes it destroy.


hahaha. if you dont like my post, please ignore it.

if you like SLT/SNT the tan bong fok and YJKYM is just a medium to transfer, eject, neutralized.. different type of 4 D force vectors dynamically.

[JPinAZ]

. it means nothing for those who can make Force Vectors and Qi works. Too bad you dont know.

Ok Hen****, have you made any of this BS work in a real fight? or even sparring?? Oh, that's right, you don't spar. So how do you know you are making things 'work'?

To quote you - "too bad you don't"

You're so full of crap your halo above your head stinks like sh!t

[punchdrunk]

I think this needs repeating ... www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzQMpOIHzzw&feature=related

[punchdrunk]

the sum of all the historic "research" and psuedo scientific theories regarding Wing Chun and how it relates to real training... www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBfNwwzp-Vc
Hey at least it's not a graph.

[Hendrik]

Ok Hen****, have you made any of this BS work in a real fight? or even sparring?? Oh, that's right, you don't spar. So how do you know you are making things 'work'?

To quote you - "too bad you don't"

You're so full of crap your halo above your head stinks like sh!t



Cant expect a blind man to see sun.

ask Wang Xiangzhai is it BS or is it real. I bet he will say you are blind. hahaha.
http://neigong.net/2006/06/05/anecdotes-of-dachengquan-founder-wang-xiangzhai-by-wang-xuanjie/

[Hendrik]

the sum of all the historic "research" and psuedo scientific theories regarding Wing Chun and how it relates to real training... www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBfNwwzp-Vc
Hey at least it's not a graph.



You obviously have no clue on advance TCMA.

王芗斋在《拳道中枢》（试力章节）中指出：“盖螺旋力，以余之体认观之，非由三角力不得产生者也。而所有一 切力量，都是筋肉动荡与精神假想而互为，皆有密切连带之关系，若分而言之，则又走入方法之门，成为片面耳 。”

[t_niehoff]

again, jump gun. hahaha.

Who give a damm on what you said as soon as one can make the process work with repeatability and reproduceability.

Who care about your Terence SCIENCE-ology approval. it means nothing for those who can make Force Vectors and Qi works. Too bad you dont know.

Well, Hendrik, all you have to do is SHOW that it works -- show someone using this in fighting against competent fighters. So simple yet no one can do it. Oh, sure, you can tell us stories of people who it is said could do it, but we can never really see it for ourselves. And there's a good reason for that: it doesn't work.

We can see what sort of training produces results, even world-class level results. And we can see what sort of training (the crap you propose) doesn't and hasn't produced results. Yet, you continue to chase the fairies, sure in your belief that they really exist.

[-木叶-]

Some people train Wing Chun just for fighting.

But Martial Arts is much more than fighting. In fact fighting is a very small
part of Martial Arts.

A very respected Wing Chun sifu once said, "If you want to fight, dont learn
Wing Chun, just go out and buy a gun, pom! pom! and opponent is dead".

[punchdrunk]

Good point, training can give benefits well beyond physically fighting. There definately are physical, mental, and even social skills to be learned and gained. However these benefits come from the proper training and understanding taken from training it as a self defense art, if you train as just a fun hobby your results will not be as good.
About firearms... sure they offer huge advantages, however they should entail proper training as well. There is also of course the very real possibility of not having them when you need them either. Usually when someone says "your training is pointless, all I have to do is shoot you" they neither possess a gun nor have real experience using one.
Sounds like you have good ideas for topics to discuss.

[t_niehoff]

Some people train Wing Chun just for fighting.

But Martial Arts is much more than fighting. In fact fighting is a very small
part of Martial Arts.

A very respected Wing Chun sifu once said, "If you want to fight, dont learn
Wing Chun, just go out and buy a gun, pom! pom! and opponent is dead".

WCK is a martial art, a fist method (kuen faat). If you take the fighting out of WCK, just like if you take the fighting out of boxing or the fighting out of BJJ, what do you have left? Well, whatever that is, it is no longer a martial art.

Martial arts are "much more than fighting" only to the people who don't fight -- then, of course, all the other things associated with martial arts take on a huge significance since the lack of its primary purpose leaves a huge void to fill.

I'm sure that "a very well respected wing chun sifu" did say that. Just as I am certain that this self-same "well respected wing chun sifu" couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. Coming from that background, what would you expecthim to say?

[JPinAZ]

If you take the fighting out of WCK, just like if you take the fighting out of boxing or the fighting out of BJJ, what do you have left?

You get a crazy, sickly, pajama wearing feminine 'thinker' who posts silly graphs and music videos, uses scientific readouts, talks in broken jibberish, who can't ever answer a question but wastes pages and pages of forum space about vectors, 3 d, 4d double D, and lord knows what else...

pretty much some closet case who can't fight with his MA so he sits and talks about it for hours on end. ie, Hendrik

[-木叶-]

WCK is a martial art, a fist method (kuen faat). If you take the fighting out of WCK, just like if you take the fighting out of boxing or the fighting out of BJJ, what do you have left? Well, whatever that is, it is no longer a martial art.

Martial arts are "much more than fighting" only to the people who don't fight -- then, of course, all the other things associated with martial arts take on a huge significance since the lack of its primary purpose leaves a huge void to fill.

I'm sure that "a very well respected wing chun sifu" did say that. Just as I am certain that this self-same "well respected wing chun sifu" couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. Coming from that background, what would you expecthim to say?

i did not want to mention names because it will be pointless. but you have to show respect to
the elderly sifu. if your views of wingchun sifus are as such, then why do you practice wing chun?

[m1k3]

i did not want to mention names because it will be pointless. but you have to show respect to the elderly sifu. if your views of wingchun sifus are as such, then why do you practice wing chun?

Why? Because he is old or because he is a sifu? Respect is earned, not given.

T practices wing chun to fight, what I do is closer to chun-ercize (tm), which is fine for me. But you will notice I never claim to be a fighter or to practice a martial art.

As for guns, what else would one use for self defense? Doesn't require any special strength. Works for young and old, even the frail become deadly with a gun.

Thats actually what the nun who can not be named taught Wing Chun. She gave her a Colt 45, took her into the woods and taught her to shot small animals while drinking wine.

The day the bandits showed up she stepped out into the street, pulled out her Colt and smoked the bandit leader. She looked at the rest of the gang, took a big slug from the wine bottle, and said, "Does anyone else want some of this?".

True story.

:D

[t_niehoff]

i did not want to mention names because it will be pointless. but you have to show respect to
the elderly sifu. if your views of wingchun sifus are as such, then why do you practice wing chun?

Why should I respect him because he is an "elderly sifu"? Does that mean he knows what the hell he's talking about? Of course not.

[Hendrik]

Why? Because he is old or because he is a sifu? Respect is earned, not given.

T practices wing chun to fight, what I do is closer to chun-ercize (tm), which is fine for me. But you will notice I never claim to be a fighter or to practice a martial art.

As for guns, what else would one use for self defense? Doesn't require any special strength. Works for young and old, even the frail become deadly with a gun.

Thats actually what the nun who can not be named taught Wing Chun. She gave her a Colt 45, took her into the woods and taught her to shot small animals while drinking wine.

The day the bandits showed up she stepped out into the street, pulled out her Colt and smoked the bandit leader. She looked at the rest of the gang, took a big slug from the wine bottle, and said, "Does anyone else want some of this?".

True story.

:D

sure , and you all are doing garbage self intepretation WCK instead of WCK. :D

True story hahahha

[Hendrik]

Well, Hendrik, all you have to do is SHOW that it works -- show someone using this in fighting against competent fighters. ....



are you are competent fighter?

[Hendrik]

Why should I respect him because he is an "elderly sifu"? Does that mean he knows what the hell he's talking about? Of course not.

What the hell you know to comment on others any way? hahaha :D

[Hendrik]

i did not want to mention names because it will be pointless. but you have to show respect to
the elderly sifu. if your views of wingchun sifus are as such, then why do you practice wing chun?

you see, for some their culture is different.
so dont expect those respect on elderly sifu even their own sifu or sigung. if they can beat thier sifu they will.

There is no concept of drinking water and remember the source.

It is about buyer and seller and self-center ego business.

So, dont expect anything in a market place. and it is also not neccesary to teach and share the real thing or being honest ; these people will not appreciate.

[m1k3]

sure , and you all are doing garbage intepretation of WCK instead of WCK. hahahha

Is this in response to me saying I do chun for exercise or in response to me saying Wing Chun used a gun for self defense?

C'mon Hendrick, if you going to insult people you at least have to put a little effort into it. See, instead of being upset with how you responded, I am sitting here thinking what the h3ll is he talking about.

So please clarify your intended insult and I promise to be appropriately upset. Ok?

[m1k3]

Hendrick, one more thing. Even if you are doing the best, finest, most pure, most dangerous and most truly awesome Wing Chun the gun still wins. (At least most of the times.)

[Hendrik]

Hendrick, one more thing. Even if you are doing the best, finest, most pure, most dangerous and most truly awesome Wing Chun the gun still wins. (At least most of the times.)

ego right? hahaha

[Hendrik]

Is this in response to me saying I do chun for exercise or in response to me saying Wing Chun used a gun for self defense?

C'mon Hendrick, if you going to insult people you at least have to put a little effort into it. See, instead of being upset with how you responded, I am sitting here thinking what the h3ll is he talking about.

So please clarify your intended insult and I promise to be appropriately upset. Ok?


Opps sorry!
hahaha you cant take joke ? :D

[Hendrik]

You get a crazy, sickly, pajama wearing feminine 'thinker' who posts silly graphs and music videos, uses scientific readouts, talks in broken jibberish, who can't ever answer a question but wastes pages and pages of forum space about vectors, 3 d, 4d double D, and lord knows what else...

pretty much some closet case who can't fight with his MA so he sits and talks about it for hours on end. ie, Hendrik

hahaha,

sure blind man.

[m1k3]

Opps sorry!
hahaha you cant take joke ? :D

Wait a minute, your didn't mean to quote my post, or your did but you didn't mean to insult me, or you did mean to insult me but I didn't get it.

Wow, this is getting deep. Is this some kind of a zen thing?

I bet it is, yes, in fact it must be some kind of zen thing.



I feel more enlightened already! Thanks Hendrick, I am well on the path to buddahood now thanks to you.

:D




I like jokes yes?

[t_niehoff]

are you are competent fighter?

Why, do you want to fight with me? ;)

It is easy enough to find proven, competent fighters -- go visit a good MMA gym, muay thai gym, kickboxing gym, etc. And try to make your WCK work against them. See if you can do what you train to do. That's the gold standard.

[punchdrunk]

you see, for some their culture is different.
so dont expect those respect on elderly sifu even their own sifu or sigung. if they can beat thier sifu they will.

There is no concept of drinking water and remember the source.

It is about buyer and seller and self-center ego business.

So, dont expect anything in a market place. and it is also not neccesary to teach and share the real thing or being honest ; these people will not appreciate.

The last sentence really shows Hendricks attitude to honesty, he feels justified in lying because for some their culture is different.
Drinking water and remembering the source does not mean to blindly accept what a senior says, don`t beleive something about the system go ahead and test it for yourself and aftertward remember where it`s from.
Of course H. will probably edit his post a few more times.

[Hendrik]

Wait a minute, your didn't mean to quote my post, or your did but you didn't mean to insult me, or you did mean to insult me but I didn't get it.

Wow, this is getting deep. Is this some kind of a zen thing?

I bet it is, yes, in fact it must be some kind of zen thing.



I feel more enlightened already! Thanks Hendrick, I am well on the path to buddahood now thanks to you.

:D




I like jokes yes?


Speak about you speak about me what is the different? ego based. :D

[Hendrik]

The last sentence really shows Hendricks attitude to honesty, he feels justified in lying because for some their culture is different.


Drinking water and remembering the source does not mean to blindly accept what a senior says, don`t beleive something about the system go ahead and test it for yourself and aftertward remember where it`s from.


Of course H. will probably edit his post a few more times.


since you love to speculate and play self-rightrousness.
speculate and reason as you like.

[Hendrik]

Why, do you want to fight with me? ;)

It is easy enough to find proven, competent fighters -- go visit a good MMA gym, muay thai gym, kickboxing gym, etc. And try to make your WCK work against them. See if you can do what you train to do. That's the gold standard.



you still have not answer my question "are you are competent fighter?"

[m1k3]

Speak about you speak about me what is the different? ego based. :D

A haiku present for you Hendirck

Sitting Quietly
Hendrick unfolds his wisdom
T is unimpressed.

[JPinAZ]

you still have not answer my question "are you are competent fighter?"

You still haven't answered this question many times: do you spar or fight with your white crane wing chun? Or at all?

[-木叶-]

Why should I respect him because he is an "elderly sifu"? Does that mean he knows what the hell he's talking about? Of course not.

I think the difference in cultural background, and maybe maturity, will lead to different opinions. I think i understand your view and some of the rest, is to ask everyone to go and test it out and not talk, "walk the walk, not talk the talk", am i correct?

But the elderly sifu (not me!) does knows what he is talking about and deserves our respect.

Anyway, thanks for your replies.

[Hendrik]

But the elderly sifu (not me!) does knows what he is talking about and deserves our respect.

.

For some they expect others to be Guilty until proven innocent. That is how the mentality based.

as the mentality of TCMA no cant do.... BJJ is default superior.


Well, in fact, most doesnt know what they are talking about when it comes to TCMA. But then they themself love to play expert to push for thier intepretation , they dont understand the meaning of Transmission or lineage in TCMA culture , but still thier intepretation cant work, so again, they blame the TCMA.

Yup, I know it all and others' fault always. that is the culture for some. hahaha :D

[duende]

For some they expect others to be Guilty until proven innocent. That is how the mentality based.



Ha ha.... talking about the pot calling the kettle black!!

Sorry for the interruption. Couldn't resist.

Please continue.

[Hendrik]

Ha ha.... talking about the pot calling the kettle black!!

Sorry for the interruption. Couldn't resist.

Please continue.



Sure. for some is caught guilty but keep arguing and on and on and on.

[t_niehoff]

A haiku present for you Hendirck

Sitting Quietly
Hendrick unfolds his wisdom
T is unimpressed.

ROFLOL! Priceless.

[Yoshiyahu]

ROFLOL! Priceless.

Whats Sil Lim Tao good for?

[anerlich]

Sitting Quietly
Hendrick unfolds his wisdom
T is unimpressed.


m1k3, you are the MAN :cool:

(You are male, right?)

[t_niehoff]

Whats Sil Lim Tao good for?

If someone choreographed the movements you use in riding a bike into a fixed set, so that you perform them in the air, what would THAT be good for?

If someone choreographed the movements you use in basketball into a fixed set, so that you perform them in the air (without a ball), what would THAT be good for?

If someone choreographed the movements you use in boxing into a fixed set, so that you perform them in the air, what would THAT be good for?

It's the EXACT same thing.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

If someone choreographed the movements you use in riding a bike...basketball...boxing into a fixed set, so that you perform them in the air, what would THAT be good for?

It's the EXACT same thing.

Hey, you never know when those mime skills might be useful.

http://www.drmcninja.com/mcdonalds.html

[m1k3]

m1k3, you are the MAN :cool:

(You are male, right?)

Yeah, I'm male, old too, I guess that means I can demand respect as an elder.

I'm glad you liked my little present for Hendrick. I though he might appreciate Haiku with his ZEN background and all.

:D

[Hendrik]

Hey, you never know when those mime skills might be useful.

http://www.drmcninja.com/mcdonalds.html



so what is the usefulness?

[m1k3]

so what is the usefulness?

He just explained it to you, how else could you deal with sick, criminal Mime?

DUH!

:D

[Hendrik]

He just explained it to you, how else could you deal with sick, criminal Mime?

DUH!

:D

sure, you are fantasy and none of you can defend Terence's view. sad!







If someone choreographed the movements you use in riding a bike into a fixed set, so that you perform them in the air, what would THAT be good for?

If someone choreographed the movements you use in basketball into a fixed set, so that you perform them in the air (without a ball), what would THAT be good for?

If someone choreographed the movements you use in boxing into a fixed set, so that you perform them in the air, what would THAT be good for?

It's the EXACT same thing.


just pronouce SLT/SNT is dead because none of you expert who posts on Yin Yang/ Chi... internal art..wck .. cant defend Terence's post. Face the reality.

[t_niehoff]

sure, you are fantasy and none of you can defend Terence's view. sad!

just pronouce SLT/SNT is dead because none of you expert who posts on Yin Yang/ Chi... internal art..wck .. cant defend Terence's post. Face the reality.

Yin/yang, chi, internal art, etc, IS fantasy.

If you want to teach someone to play basketball, you could begin by teaching them the movements of basketball from a form (practicing the movements in the air). But, I think anyone with a lick of common sense would tell you that's really a silly way to teach basketball. But, change that to martial arts and suddenly people begin believing in those silly things.

I could talk about the yin/yang of basketball, the chi of basketball, the internal art of basketball. But anyone with a lick of sense would know this is all silly. But change that to the martial arts and suddenly people begin believing in those silly things.

[Hendrik]

Yin/yang, chi, internal art, etc, IS fantasy.

If you want to teach someone to play basketball, you could begin by teaching them the movements of basketball from a form (practicing the movements in the air). But, I think anyone with a lick of common sense would tell you that's really a silly way to teach basketball. But, change that to martial arts and suddenly people begin believing in those silly things.

I could talk about the yin/yang of basketball, the chi of basketball, the internal art of basketball. But anyone with a lick of sense would know this is all silly. But change that to the martial arts and suddenly people begin believing in those silly things.



Terence,

hahaha, somedays when you see it if there is any chance you will be shock.
I wouldnt tell you the story to ruin your movie. hahahaha


As for the other WCners, the issue is could one deliver instead of just Toung Fu all the way with His-story.....

[t_niehoff]

Terence,

hahaha, somedays when you see it if there is any chance you will be shock.
I wouldnt tell you the story to ruin your movie. hahahaha


As for the other WCners, the issue is could one deliver instead of just Toung Fu all the way with His-story.....


The Hendrik theme song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNn361umypM

[Hendrik]

The Hendrik theme song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNn361umypM


I sure not those who believe in the one and only one Mantra and sure always find a way to do something different and better --- the Van Helsing way.

there always a new way to kill the Vampire even none have done it for passed 100 of years. hahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrOqCgDgXfQ

[JPinAZ]

As for the other WCners, the issue is could one deliver instead of just Toung Fu all the way with His-story.....

Henrick, you speak of Toung Fu, like you don't practice it yourself - what a laugh! Do you have any evidence that all this nonsense you babble continuously translates into any modern-day fighting skills?
Can you prove it works?
Do you spar or fight with this stuff, let alone at all?

If not, you are the biggest Tounge Fuist on this forum.

[Hendrik]

Henrick, you speak of Toung Fu, like you don't practice it yourself - what a laugh! Do you have any evidence that all this nonsense you babble continuously translates into any modern-day fighting skills?
Can you prove it works?
Do you spar or fight with this stuff, let alone at all?

If not, you are the biggest Tounge Fuist on this forum.



What have you contribute in the forum beside you you me me all kinds of blind ego driven noise?

if your art doesnt work that is your problem. not mine.

[JPinAZ]

The quetion isn't if 'my art' that works or doesn't. It's whether or not I can make it work.

Besides all that, I speak from my own, proven-to-myself experiences. Not from something I've read or any "so I've heards'. I was just curious if you do the same since you do say soooo many things here.
Well?
Do you?

As for ego driven, I'll just quote your last one. What is this all about if not ego?

"somedays when you see it if there is any chance you will be shock.
I wouldnt tell you the story to ruin your movie. hahahaha
As for the other WCners, the issue is could one deliver instead of just Toung Fu all the way with His-story....."

Sounds like someone who hints at having all the answers while others only speak toung fu, fantasy and 'his-story'. Talk about ego..

[Hendrik]

The quetion isn't if 'my art' that works or doesn't. It's whether or not I can make it work.

Besides all that, I speak from my own, proven-to-myself experiences. Not from something I've read or any "so I've heards'. I was just curious if you do the same since you do say soooo many things here.
Well?
Do you?

As for ego driven, I'll just quote your last one. What is this all about if not ego?

"somedays when you see it if there is any chance you will be shock.
I wouldnt tell you the story to ruin your movie. hahahaha
As for the other WCners, the issue is could one deliver instead of just Toung Fu all the way with His-story....."

Sounds like someone who hints at having all the answers while others only speak toung fu, fantasy and 'his-story'. Talk about ego..


great! excellent!

practice all your talk here on.

[Yoshiyahu]

great! excellent!

practice all your talk here on.

how does one apply SLT in a actual fight Hendrik?

[Hendrik]

how does one apply SLT in a actual fight Hendrik?

When you can quiet you mind and those fighting thoughts, I will tell you. Serious.

Otherwise, you will listen but hear nothing.

[Yoshiyahu]

When you can quiet you mind and those fighting thoughts, I will tell you. Serious.

Otherwise, you will listen but hear nothing.

Do you know what the fighting applications are????