Machida vs Evans (gifs)

[MasterKiller]

http://s54.radikal.ru/i144/0905/af/73af674d2a89.gif

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p184/ddubmma/Lyoto_Drops_Rashad1.gif

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p184/ddubmma/Lyoto_Drops_Rashad.gif

[goju]

Once agian proving karate is superior!!

[WinterPalm]

Is Karate back?

Can't say I've ever seen Karate that looks like Lyoto...

[mawali]

Once agian proving karate is superior!!

More KO and such is needed to prove that hypothesis. Prior to this, and for the past 10 years, BJJ is still the bomb, due to the ne-waza employed to stop an event! Machida is an exception due to his karate background and his newaza arsenal to be employed as needed.

[goju]

the way i was taught is similar to lyoto to and i do karate
stick and move stick and move you see that lot in karate

[AdrianK]

The great news is, like the CSL Wing chun guys in the UK, its really being proven that MMA is constantly evolving with new concepts, new ideas and such. That there are useful things in martial arts outside of BJJ/MT/Boxing.

The bad news is, there's so many bad karate schools out there that are going to take advantage of this :mad:

[tattooedmonk]

Lyoto Mashida!!! Awesome . I like this guy!!!:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

The great news is, like the CSL Wing chun guys in the UK, its really being proven that MMA is constantly evolving with new concepts, new ideas and such. That there are useful things in martial arts outside of BJJ/MT/Boxing.

The bad news is, there's so many bad karate schools out there that are going to take advantage of this :mad:I agree. Where do you study??
Northridge, Ca?? You live by CSUN??

[AdrianK]

^
I'm right down the street from CSUN actually. I've trained with several teachers out here, but right now I'm not part of any school aside from hitting up the CSUN Boxing gym every now and then.

[tattooedmonk]

^
I'm right down the street from CSUN actually. I've trained with several teachers out here, but right now I'm not part of any school aside from hitting up the CSUN Boxing gym every now and then.Did you ever train at the Chinese Shaolin Center Northridge????

[AdrianK]

I've met the teacher and watched a few classes when they had their school on Reseda blvd. They moved to Sherman Oaks I think? A good friend of mine was a long time student of the first Sifu there.

[Violent Designs]

Did you ever train at the Chinese Shaolin Center Northridge????

Are you living in this area?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is Karate back?

Can't say I've ever seen Karate that looks like Lyoto...

Most of the stuff is classical shotokan, well...what classical shotokan looks like when applied to MMA anyways.

[Oso]

Most of the stuff is classical shotokan, well...what classical shotokan looks like when applied to MMA anyways.

which is to say the way most any martial art will look when applied to MMA....


****, just can't seem to find that [cancel cynicism] switch this morning :D

[goju]

well whats shotokan supposed to look like in afight?
you honestly think they stand in the bow stance throwing chambered punches lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

which is to say the way most any martial art will look when applied to MMA....


****, just can't seem to find that [cancel cynicism] switch this morning :D

No, what I meant is that, this is what shotokan looks like when applied to MMA and combined with the other systems needed to be effective in MMA.
The core of traditional shotokan is still there and quite visible, things like one solid stop hits of the rear hand ( Jodan Gyaku Zuki), sweeps to the front leg as counters and as part of combos, lead hand jabs ( kizami zuki), low sweeping "blocks" to front kicks turned into sweeps/throws, all typical of Shotokan and very much so of Machida's Dad's shotokan.

[tattooedmonk]

I've met the teacher and watched a few classes when they had their school on Reseda blvd. They moved to Sherman Oaks I think? A good friend of mine was a long time student of the first Sifu there.I was a long time student there. Hell I was there when we move the school from Chatsworth and established the school in Northridge. After Master Devor left it was down Hill from there IMHO. The guy that took over for him was removed now they have someone new.:eek::DWho is your friend ??

[tattooedmonk]

Are you living in this area?Yes. why??:D

[tattooedmonk]

you honestly think they stand in the bow stance throwing chambered punches lolSome practitioners of the style do ,thats why when it comes time to use it they get their @$$3$$ kicked. This holds true for all martial arts.

[Oso]

No, what I meant is that, this is what shotokan looks like when applied to MMA and combined with the other systems needed to be effective in MMA.
The core of traditional shotokan is still there and quite visible, things like one solid stop hits of the rear hand ( Jodan Gyaku Zuki), sweeps to the front leg as counters and as part of combos, lead hand jabs ( kizami zuki), low sweeping "blocks" to front kicks turned into sweeps/throws, all typical of Shotokan and very much so of Machida's Dad's shotokan.

i wasn't aiming my remark at your post...just at the general theme of the thread

but, most of those things you ascribe to shotokan i've seen elsewhere...I don't believe any single style holds anything that isn't present in many other styles and it's all gonna look about the same once you get in to a fight

what i've seen of machida's stuff that is different to note is his tactics...but, anyone of any style, even the dread MMA Style, could employ those tactics with whatever techniques they think are special to them

[AdrianK]

I was a long time student there. Hell I was there when we move the school from Chatsworth and established the school in Northridge. After Master Devor left it was down Hill from there IMHO. The guy that took over for him was removed now they have someone new.:eek::DWho is your friend ??

Interesting. You might know him, his name is Hasen. Really big guy, 'bout 6 feet tall and 280lbs. I don't remember how long he trained there, but you probably saw him. Are you training at a school nowdays? I've probably been to just about every school in the valley :D

[tattooedmonk]

Interesting. You might know him, his name is Hasen. Really big guy, 'bout 6 feet tall and 280lbs. I don't remember how long he trained there, but you probably saw him. Are you training at a school nowdays? I've probably been to just about every school in the valley :DHMM.... Name sounds familiar but I am not sure . Yes .I teach and share one with a few other guys. I do not train at CSCS.Politics. Started in the school in 1990 been gone for about 4. I have too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i wasn't aiming my remark at your post...just at the general theme of the thread

but, most of those things you ascribe to shotokan i've seen elsewhere...I don't believe any single style holds anything that isn't present in many other styles and it's all gonna look about the same once you get in to a fight

what i've seen of machida's stuff that is different to note is his tactics...but, anyone of any style, even the dread MMA Style, could employ those tactics with whatever techniques they think are special to them

Agreed muffin.
:D

[MasterKiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvW6RokXhg8

Machida is pimp.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvW6RokXhg8

Machida is pimp.

Wait till his wife sees that clip, she'll show him a trick or two !!

[GeneChing]

I raise a cup of pee (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=925888&postcount=34) to honor Machida's victory!

[Old Noob]

More KO and such is needed to prove that hypothesis. Prior to this, and for the past 10 years, BJJ is still the bomb, due to the ne-waza employed to stop an event! Machida is an exception due to his karate background and his newaza arsenal to be employed as needed.

I don't think that Machida proves the superiority of Karate, or that any fighter has shown a particular style to be superior. Truly, BJJ took the world by storm and dominated the early days of MMA. The cause of BJJ's success, though, is probably more attributable to the fact that few early opponents were familiar with it than because it's a "superior" style (I'm not criticizing BJJ (I think it's awesome)). I offer up two anecdotal observations to back my assertion: First, you don't seem to need to be a BB in BJJ to beat one in the MMA ring these days. Rather, non-BJJ stylists train on how to avoid and counter BJJ submissions, thus enabling them to counter BJJ while prosecuting their attacks using their preferred style. Second, I've heard that while a vast majority of early MMA fights, even up to a few years ago, were won by submission, that trend is starting to head back towards strikers, with larger and larger percentages of matches being decided by KO or TKO in the last year or two.

I think BJJ is a great style and that the Gracies surprised a whole bunch of martial artists in the early days. To call BJJ the be-all-end-all, though, is probably going too far.

Machida is a tremendous Karateka and it's good to see folks dominate in MMA who aren't the typical mui tai/BJJ hybrid. Machida didn't establish the dominance of Karate though.

Just saying.

[MasterKiller]

Second, I've heard that while a vast majority of early MMA fights, even up to a few years ago, were won by submission, that trend is starting to head back towards strikers, with larger and larger percentages of matches being decided by KO or TKO in the last year or two.. A lot of that has to do with rules changes favoring stand up to keep the crowd happy.

[Old Noob]

A lot of that has to do with rules changes favoring stand up to keep the crowd happy.

Not arguing. Just curious because I know you follow these things. You say alot of it has to do with rule changes. Do you think that accounts for all of it or do you think people are also successfully training to counter BJJ without having to take the 10+ years to get the BJJ BB?

[MasterKiller]

Not arguing. Just curious because I know you follow these things. You say alot of it has to do with rule changes. Do you think that accounts for all of it or do you think people are also successfully training to counter BJJ without having to take the 10+ years to get the BJJ BB?

Both, but the refs are quick to stand people up now, and it takes time to set up a submission, especially when you are trying not to get punched. Most non-BJJ pro fighters are probably Purple belt level on the ground. A solid Blue is all you really need for 'the street,' imo.

[tattooedmonk]

A lot of that has to do with rules changes favoring stand up to keep the crowd happy.so if the rules hadnt changed then BJJ would be dominating??Are you saying that BJJ is the best martial art?? Are you saying that the Ufc is biased towards stand up fighting now? I thnk people just want to see a good mix of both. Watching two more than half naked men, rolling around on the ground for 15 minutes is boring and kinda queer, even if you know what they are doing.

[MasterKiller]

so if the rules hadnt changed then BJJ would be dominating??Are you saying that BJJ is the best martial art?? Are you saying that the Ufc is biased towards stand up fighting now? I thnk people just want to see a good mix of both. Watching two more than half naked men, rolling around on the ground for 15 minutes is boring and kinda queer, even if you know what they are doing.

What I am saying is that the rules were modified to make the fights more exciting to the general spectator, i.e., they stand people up faster now.

Is BJJ the best martial art? That's like asking if a hammer is better than a screwdriver. I have both in my toolbox, but context is everything.

[tattooedmonk]

What I am saying is that the rules were modified to make the fights more exciting to the general spectator, i.e., they stand people up faster now.

Is BJJ the best martial art? That's like asking if a hammer is better than a screwdriver. I have both in my toolbox, but context is everything.ok. The way you stated your position on it made it sound another way, maybe it is just me.

I agree . You made it sound as if you favored BJJ and that if it wasnt for the rule changes that BJJ would be dominate.


In BJJ or any JJ, shouldnt the beginning of the hold for a submission be initiated while you are taking the person down so that when they are down all you have to do is finish?? or is this just for street application?? The constant stuggle for position and submission in sport works if you have superior skill and conditioning, I get that, but doesnt that waste alot of energy , time and get boring etc.??

[MasterKiller]

In BJJ or any JJ, shouldnt the beginning of the hold for a submission be initiated while you are taking the person down so that when they are down all you have to do is finish?? or is this just for street application?? The constant stuggle for position and submission in sport works if you have superior skill and conditioning, I get that, but doesnt that waste alot of energy , time and get boring etc.??

The goal of BJJ is to control the dominant position. If you can fall into a dominant position, great. But most BJJ guys don't have stellar takedowns; in fact, a lot of time they just sort of flop down and try to drag you with them, i.e. "pulling guard," and then they use their transitions to set up attacks.

A lot of stuff that happens in the sport of BJJ gets nullified once blows are being thrown. But learning to control position, and knowing how to transition from inferior to superior positions, is vital, especially for a guy who just wants to stand back up and strike again.

Does it waste energy? I don't think so. In fact, BJJ guys tend to have outstanding energy conservation. They literally control the position long enough for you to wear yourself out so they can apply a submission. It takes way more energy to try to "fight" out of a position than if you just knew the proper technique in the first place.

Does it waste time? It does take a lot of time to set up submissions, which is why the rules changes favor strikers now.

Is it boring? Depends on your cup of tea. I love submission wrestling, and will hopefully continue doing it long after I give up getting hit in the head. It's a great work out and awesome for conditioning. I can't watch golf to save my life, but others seem to get a kick out of it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The goal of BJJ is to control the dominant position. If you can fall into a dominant position, great. But most BJJ guys don't have stellar takedowns; in fact, a lot of time they just sort of flop down and try to drag you with them, i.e. "pulling guard," and then they use their transitions to set up attacks.

A lot of stuff that happens in the sport of BJJ gets nullified once blows are being thrown. But learning to control position, and knowing how to transition from inferior to superior positions, is vital, especially for a guy who just wants to stand back up and strike again.

Does it waste energy? I don't think so. In fact, BJJ guys tend to have outstanding energy conservation. They literally control the position long enough for you to wear yourself out so they can apply a submission. It takes way more energy to try to "fight" out of a position than if you just knew the proper technique in the first place.

Does it waste time? It does take a lot of time to set up submissions, which is why the rules changes favor strikers now.

Is it boring? Depends on your cup of tea. I love submission wrestling, and will hopefully continue doing it long after I give up getting hit in the head. It's a great work out and awesome for conditioning. I can't watch golf to save my life, but others seem to get a kick out of it.

While you make a valid point, lets not forget this:
I think that strikers have grasped that you can't beat a grappler at their own game, what you can do is learn how to keep them out of their game and playing your game.
You can't beat a grappler on the ground, unless you are a better grappler.
Keep it standing or use the GnP as a "grappling neutralizer" and you stand a chance.
Strikers are also training their strikes VS grapplers and that is a huge difference since the timing is very different.

[Old Noob]

ok. The way you stated your position on it made it sound another way, maybe it is just me.

I agree . You made it sound as if you favored BJJ and that if it wasnt for the rule changes that BJJ would be dominate.


In BJJ or any JJ, shouldnt the beginning of the hold for a submission be initiated while you are taking the person down so that when they are down all you have to do is finish?? or is this just for street application?? The constant stuggle for position and submission in sport works if you have superior skill and conditioning, I get that, but doesnt that waste alot of energy , time and get boring etc.??

I know we're a little OT, but I think that's one of the differences between Judo's submissions and BJJ's. SR - you're a Judo guy aren't you. Jump in here. I think that, in Judo, the submission or pin has to pretty closely follow the take down (throw), whereas BJJ doesn't concern itself much with the takedown itself. Knowing that's an oversimplification is it basically correct?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know we're a little OT, but I think that's one of the differences between Judo's submissions and BJJ's. SR - you're a Judo guy aren't you. Jump in here. I think that, in Judo, the submission or pin has to pretty closely follow the take down (throw), whereas BJJ doesn't concern itself much with the takedown itself. Knowing that's an oversimplification is it basically correct?

There is a time limit in Judo to apply the pin or submission, typically you tend to go for the pin because submissions take longer.
The throw is the key because it gets you the most points, even wins you the match right away.
I tended to go for the subs rather than pins just because I liked finishing matches.

[tattooedmonk]

The goal of BJJ is to control the dominant position. If you can fall into a dominant position, great. But most BJJ guys don't have stellar takedowns; in fact, a lot of time they just sort of flop down and try to drag you with them, i.e. "pulling guard," and then they use their transitions to set up attacks.

A lot of stuff that happens in the sport of BJJ gets nullified once blows are being thrown. But learning to control position, and knowing how to transition from inferior to superior positions, is vital, especially for a guy who just wants to stand back up and strike again.

Does it waste energy? I don't think so. In fact, BJJ guys tend to have outstanding energy conservation. They literally control the position long enough for you to wear yourself out so they can apply a submission. It takes way more energy to try to "fight" out of a position than if you just knew the proper technique in the first place.

Does it waste time? It does take a lot of time to set up submissions, which is why the rules changes favor strikers now.

Is it boring? Depends on your cup of tea. I love submission wrestling, and will hopefully continue doing it long after I give up getting hit in the head. It's a great work out and awesome for conditioning. I can't watch golf to save my life, but others seem to get a kick out of it.Isnt that the goal of all martial arts to be in the dominant position??

If BJJ doesn't have stellar takes downs doesnt that make getting themselves into a dominant position that much harder??

I have seen and know the flop, get into guard position many times, however it doesnt seem to work that much any more especially in MMA.

Isnt moving from inferior to superior position the one of the goals of all martial arts??

I understand that breathing properly is key conservation of energy to all forms of martial arts, however you are constantly seeing guys gas when trying to use these methods now, what do you think is the reason behind this??

Shouldnt these MMA bouts be equal towards both stand up and ground fighters?

I do not think that it favors one over the other anymore.

Submission wrestling is something different we are talking MMA.

Because of the way the ring is set up and the way the stands are set up it is hard to see what is going on in the ring if you are there and not watching it on TV, dont you think??

Dont you think that seeing as it is MMA and not SW that it the rules were changed for the better to make things equal across the board??

I understand what you are saying though, thanks for the response.

[MasterKiller]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying, necessarily. Knockouts are awesome to watch.

Sanjuro is right in that people are better at defending takedowns now; at the same time, BJJ has proven more than any other single art that, in a one-on-one encounter, with no chance of outside interference, that it can be dominant.

Personally, I prefer to mix freestyle wrestling with BJJ. Wrestling takedowns + BJJ transitions and submissions = a pretty d@mn solid grappling game, imo.

That's what we use in my club, and my fighters are 6-1 in cage matches. One is fighting for a title belt June 12 in Tulsa.

[Old Noob]

Sanjuro is right in that people are better at defending takedowns now; at the same time, BJJ has proven more than any other single art that, in a one-on-one encounter, with no chance of outside interference, that it can be dominant.


I wonder about that. Specifically, I keep thinking about the Kimura/Helio Gracie fight and Judo v. BJJ. It seems to me that, all things being equal, a judo player would beat a BJJ player in a one-on-one confrontation in a street situation. Sure the BJJ player is awesome on the ground, but get taken down hard a couple of times (or even once) on any surface harder than mats and you may not even make it to the grappling part. I remember one night a friend of mine and I walked out of a bar and had been drinking. I picked him up on my shoulder and spun him around. When I put him down, fairly gingerly I thought, he went down like a sack of potatos on the gravel parking lot and got a concussion and a broken nose. An actual throw into that material would have been devastating. What do you think?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro is right in that people are better at defending takedowns now; at the same time, BJJ has proven more than any other single art that, in a one-on-one encounter, with no chance of outside interference, that it can be dominant.

I would agree with that, I typically give edge to someone with 2 years of BJJ over someone with 2 years under any other MA, "a punchers chance" being put aside.
BJJ is far more complete than most give it credit for, certainly a 2 year BJJ practioner has been exposed to pretty much anything he may face ( within the context of your post), the same is not applicable to 2 years in MT or Judo or wrestling or TCMA.