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S.Teebas
09-05-2001, 01:25 AM
Whos going to win?

There's an upcoming fight between Zab Juda and Koasta Tszu next month. I'm putting my money on the thunder from down under!


S.Teebas

kwokfist
09-05-2001, 02:50 AM
the thunder from down under? Oh my god, I think I just hit cheese-city.

BAI HE
09-05-2001, 03:18 PM
Put your money on Judah. He's got too much speed and pretty good power. I don't think he'll KO Kosta, but he will box away with the win.

Fish of Fury
09-05-2001, 03:20 PM
i'm backing kostya

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

lowsweep
12-06-2001, 04:50 PM
What do you think of boxing as a martial art? As a supplement to other martial arts? Good boxers have some of the strongest punches out there and there footwork is pretty good too. I am thinking of training in boxing (if I can find a place...doesnt seem to be a whole lotta good places to lear MA in Lorain, Ohio) What are the weaknesses you see in boxing? It seems like a pretty good art to me, strong pounches, good footwork, decent blocking, and hard training. I have heard a lot of boxers are xsurprised when they are kicked or taken down because thay have never trained for this. Is the style it self vulnerable to lag attacks and takedowns because of the stances, philosophy, etc. or is it just that boxers don't train for this?

lowsweep

P.S. If anyone knows where i could train boxing within 40 mins of Lorain, Ohio, any help would be greatly appreciated. Cleveland is too far, anything in elyria, lorain, lakewood, etc. would be great. Thanks!

lowsweep
12-06-2001, 04:52 PM
Sorry, I was in a rush, the spelling is terrible...:rolleyes:

12-06-2001, 04:52 PM
Boxing is a sport not an art!

MonkeySlap Too
12-06-2001, 05:05 PM
Boxing is a lot of fun. I prefer boxers to the company of a lot of martial arts types due to the intensity of the training.

However, the 'sweet science' has it's limitations. I would look for something more integrated like Muay Thai if I was going down that route.

But if your choice is McDojo or Boxing, do boxing.

Except for pro boxers who focus exclusively on the sport, I am finding more and more boxers that can mix it up. I think the more exposure to other arts there is, the more boxers are prepared for it.

There are other limitations too. Boxing has changed with the evoloution of boxing gloves. Boxers have become headhunters instead of throwing body shots. The head is not a good target for an unconditioned fist.

Leonidas
12-06-2001, 05:09 PM
Its good for a workout, One of the best you can find. Needs leg defenses. Nothing fancy, maybe Wing Chun leg deflections. Possible afew stance changes. Some parrying techniques instead just holding your arms to your body, blindly blocking. Add a few more punches. Keep the evasion training, cant do much better than that. Now theres boxing you can fight with. Additions welcome. Oh yea that reminds me. Train with gloves as little as possible.

old jong
12-06-2001, 05:12 PM
I think the sport vs art thing should not discourage you of taking boxing if you like it.If you can punch and parry/dodge punches and move around,you have weapons to respond to an attacker.Of course boxing is not "absolute fighting" as some like to think of their "arts".You have to be aware of take-down,low kicks and attacks etc. Just know that a real situation cannot be predicted or trained for at 100% and anything can happen in a self-defense context.

LEGEND
12-06-2001, 06:49 PM
Boxing will make u sharp and you will be in the best shape of your life. The punches are simple and economical. However as a self defense system...this depends on how THICK your hands are...can u punch a wall several time and not break your hand!? I can't...Mike Tyson couldn't in his street fight with the one boxer...Vitor Belfort broke his hand a few times...even Tank Abbot too. So becareful...Muy Thai teaches boxing tech also...foot work is different to accomodate the knees and elbows...I find it's more complementary for footwork...besides...in the street or bar or club...u won't be dancing around a lot...

Mr. Nemo
12-06-2001, 09:13 PM
Boxing is a hell of a lot of fun. Unless it directly contradicts what you're being taught in your style, you might as well take it. There's no room in boxing for stuff that doesn't work. It's as effective for fighting as any other style you're likely to find.

Water Dragon
12-06-2001, 09:50 PM
As a general rule, when I test myself, I test myself against a boxer.

respectmankind
12-06-2001, 10:44 PM
I feel boxing is the best striking art out there. The weaknesses I see are usualy not from the art itself, but from the boxer himself. How he just sticks to what he is taught in the ring, not being flexible in that sense is a real drawback.

Ryu
12-07-2001, 12:04 AM
I'm lucky to have a father who was a Golden Gloves boxer years ago. I add boxing to my grappling. You have to know how to box with someone, punch, cover, get hit, recover, counter, etc.

Ryu

respectmankind
12-07-2001, 12:13 AM
I agree, mix grappling with boxing, and that is almost teh best foundation for MA training to start on.

kungfu cowboy
12-07-2001, 12:44 AM
Here is the address of a bagua and xingyi school in Vermillion:



Will Duncan
4560 Liberty Ave.
Vermilion, OH 44089
(440) 967-0559
HeBei Hsing-I
Sun Pa-Kua
Yang Tai-Chi

Wu Wei
12-07-2001, 01:04 AM
I agree with respect mankind. Boxing is very useful to someone who has a martial artist's mindset. So long as you use mind to apply your boxing skills to every possible situation, it is more than just a sport.
The reason some sport boxers can be beaten by martial artists is because many boxers tend to not mentally prepare themselves for events in places other than the ring.
I have a friend who has taken boxing and he is one tough guy. But he also learned street tactics to back it up because hes smart enough to know that there are no rules to a random fight.

That's how I see it anyways.

scotty1
12-07-2001, 07:12 AM
I wish I had a boxing gym near me. But my dad used to box for the army, and he's showed me some stuff on the heavy bag. I love the no nonsense approach. If you can box both southpaw and othodox (like a martial artist should be able to) then you've the basis of solid punching. And like someone said, good evasion skills and tactics. I really enjoy doing it on the bag, although my old man says I still look more like a martial artist than a boxer.
You don't need to know how to box in order to be a good puncher, you can learn that from KungFu, but I'm not a KungFu purist anyway so I like the way just being aware of basic boxing skills has affected my kungFu.
*****in'.
:cool:

apoweyn
12-07-2001, 07:35 AM
shaolin36,

that's a useless distinction when the guy has already said he's adding it to complement another style.


stuart b.

shaolinboxer
12-07-2001, 07:59 AM
Boxing is is one of those arts that so simple, yet so complex.

Plus it can teach you how to really take a shot, and the problems that come from telegraphing.

I highly recommend learning at least the basic concepts.

fa_jing
12-07-2001, 12:20 PM
I think boxing is an execellent training tool. But not enouch techniques are taught to make it a complete art. Obviously to some extent this is because of the rules and equipment used. However, I believe that even within the rules of sport boxing, one could take advantage of the Chinese science of fighting. I am not the most skilled pugilist to be able to test this out, it is more an observation made after watching a lot of Friday night Fights on ESPN2. The overall style is effective, but no one seems to block in such a way that the limb is controlled, rather moving to avoid the blow is emphasized. For example, I am thinking of a fight where the two participants were pretty evenly matched, except one had a really fast jab that he was throwing over and over. Every time he threw, the other guy had to bob and weave, which interupted his forward motion and he just couldn't get in to land a solid shot. If this guy just used a tan sao or any other block, he could have moved in without losing his structure. I believe that studying boxing will improve your Kung Fu and studying Kung Fu will improve your boxing. The weakness in Western Boxing is that blocking is under-emphasized and evasion and covering up is over emphasized. The opposite is true for SOME eastern fighting arts. I think a well-rounded fighter should have both of these tactics in his/her arsenal. -FJ

Archangel
12-07-2001, 12:52 PM
Hi,

Have you ever tried to block a fast jab, it's nearly immposible. It's simple Physics, action beats reaction 99 % of the time. In the 100 + years of boxing, isn't it strange that nobody in its history has ever used a tan sao or any other traditional block in the ring. Are boxers ignorant? No of course not. Are these techniques illegal, again the answer is no. Boxers dont use these techniques because they have an extremely low percentage chance of working against a trained punch.

nightair
12-07-2001, 12:55 PM
Boxing is a martial art. any organised form of fighting is a martial art, even some forms that aren't organised. And there isn't really any weakness, just some people can't handle the training.Its always good to mix boxing with your chosen art. Boxing usualy beats a martial artist in a street fight because they teach the student to adapt insatead of katas that will never work in a street fight.

fa_jing
12-07-2001, 03:16 PM
I disagree, obviously. I spar with my sifu, who trained in Western Boxing and is a skilled and powerful puncher. Yes, I know the feeling of not being able to react in time enough to block a fast punch. That's one of the reasons why we have the option of just moving, just blocking, or blocking + moving. I also know that sometimes the block does work, and if it does you are usually in a good position to counter. I could easily reverse your logic to say that after 2000 years of Wu Shu, blocking is still trained. Are you saying that no one in 2000 years had a trained punch, or everyone was ignorant of punching methods? With regards to the fight I mentioned, the guy ended up losing so it shows that he should have done something different. What would be a mistake is trying to block every jab, the idea is that you pick one, block it and move in + strike before the opponent punches again. And sting them hard so that any punch that's already on the way towards you has no power.
I don't know why no one blocks like that in boxing. The fact is that Western boxing was developed independently from Eastern fighting arts. Although this knowledge has been available for some time (at least since the 70's) boxing coaches haven't caught on. I'm sure that each is following his teacher's method. I know that introducing eastern-style techniques is at least somewhat effective even with heavy gloves on, because I am on the receiving end of it all the time, and occassionally give it out too. But, while I'm on the topic let me opine some more about why this stylistic difference persists.
1. It seems that some western boxers do block, kind of a slapping block like a pak sao or catching the blow on their gloves. This in contrast to some eastern-style blocks which occur ****her away from the body. The reason why any blocking takes place close to the body in Western Boxing is the same reason that the hands are kept closer to the body in the on-guard position. The punch must start from ****her away in order to generate enough force to hit hard, because of the padding in the glove. In Wing Chun we have the option of attacking directly from the block position (tan da, pak da, jut da, etc).
2. Some of the ducking and rolling techiniques a boxer uses to avoid being hit cover up the legal targets well, but expose the back, the back of the head, etc. Crouching also makes the boxer susceptable to kicks.

Here's a thought: Boxers are judged not only by whether they win the fight. A boxer coming up through the ranks must win the fight with style, that being the traditional Western boxing style. Very few people would like to see a fighter with a radically different style. Plus other fighters might avoid fighting this guy because it might not show off their best side.

This is an interesting topic, I'm curious to hear other's opinions regarding this.

-FJ


This is really funny, the word being blanked out above is
f-arther. Check that software, moderators!!

Mr. Nemo
12-07-2001, 03:38 PM
"In the 100 + years of boxing, isn't it strange that nobody in its history has ever used a tan sao or any other traditional block in the ring."

I don't know what a "tan sao" is, but boxers do block punches. Holyfield and Ali both were known for blocking punches with the gloves. I just saw Manfredy do it last night (on tape from an earlier fight). Just covering up boxing style is a kind of block.

By they way, to whoever posted the original method suggesting tan sao, bobbing and weaving doesn't necessarily mean sacrifing forward movement. Watch Tyson's early (late 80's) fights and you'll see what I mean. The weave is actaully often used to close the distance and get inside.

Mantis9
12-07-2001, 05:26 PM
I agree with Mr. Nemo. During my limited exposure to boxing, I have observed and was taught by my grandfather the vast defensive tactics involved in Western Boxing. Their blocks look much more like pats that cut off the angle to the punch, deflecting it slightly away from its intended target.

Also, boxing does teach covering, but there are several different covers that have strengths and weakness. Bobbing and weaving is also an essential skill, but its both offensive and defensive; to slipp a punch, for example.

If you see a fighter who doesn't weave or block or slipp or cover, etc. its probably because he doesn't know it or hasn't effectively added it to his/her arsennal yet. When a fighter is weaving and is off balance, can't move forward or back, has a hard time putting out any offense, that's because he's/she's not bobbing from the legs and the waist; not keeping their head up.

Boxing is an amazing martial art. In the early days (circa Marquis de Queensbury) it had thumb gouges, dirty shot, elbows, grabbing. Put 10oz. gloves on, it will change your approach to fighting. The difference between Judo and Jujitsu I would says are a good comparison to the differences between boxing in the ring today and yesteryear.

If you get the chance to train boxing: Do it. It will make your Kung Fu all the better. Of course, that after you have a good foundation in your style, right.

Well, that's all the hot air I have to give.

Archangel
12-07-2001, 05:33 PM
"I also know that sometimes the block does work, and if it does you are usually in a good position to counter"

I agree a block may work sometimes, however I will bet any money that it is an extremely lower percentage than using a boxers defence. Also if you do miss the block you are in an extremely vulnerable position unlike the boxer who has his hands up at all times and can recover alot easier.

"I could easily reverse your logic to say that after 2000 years of Wu Shu, blocking is still trained. Are you saying that no one in 2000 years had a trained punch, or everyone was ignorant of punching methods"

There is a HUGE difference here. Boxing is tested in the ring literally hundreds of times everyday against 100% resisting opponents. Wushu on the other hand is not. Boxing is a science in terms, theories are derived in the ring, Wushu again for the most part (save Sanda, Kuoshu) is not. I will take the evidence derived from actuall fighting over 2000 years of passed down traditions anyday.

"What would be a mistake is trying to block every jab, the idea is that you pick one, block it and move in + strike before the opponent punches again."

Which jab do you block? how do you measure which one to. A jab is used mostly to setup and measure, you can bet that the boxer is waiting for a cross-hook combo to finish. Again, action will most of the time beat reaction, and in all the years of competion I have witnessed, wether it be boxing, Thai, MMA I have never seen that happen.

"The punch must start from ****her away in order to generate enough force to hit hard, because of the padding in the glove"

I guess the censored part of the message is f a r t h e r. HAHA, they block out the word f a r t. Anyways, I whole heartedly disagree with this statement, this is such a fallacy that the glove somehow lessens the power of the punch. The hand is taped so it literally feels like cement, then a heavy glove placed on top of that. There is more concussion force generated because of the larger volume of the glove. The glove is there to protect the hand not the head.

"Some of the ducking and rolling techiniques a boxer uses to avoid being hit cover up the legal targets well, but expose the back, the back of the head, etc. Crouching also makes the boxer susceptable to kicks."

Actually i do agree somewhat, boxers do need to adjust there styles for the streets. It is by no way a complete art.

"Boxers are judged not only by whether they win the fight. A boxer coming up through the ranks must win the fight with style, that being the traditional Western boxing style. Very few people would like to see a fighter with a radically different style. Plus other fighters might avoid fighting this guy because it might not show off their best side. "

This is conjecture and untrue, all that really matters is a boxers record and the quality of his opponents. Prince Naseem Hamed is one of the most unorthodox fighters out there yet he was the star of the lighter divisions for sometime. These men are payed huge amounts of money to fight, A boxer can use ANY punching style that he wants. Naturally it would be obvious that a boxer would use what worked.

nospam
12-07-2001, 09:21 PM
Some very good threads.

I'd like to discount the notion of boxing's alleged limitation due to it being a sport. When I read that, it’s like paying sales tax. It’s simply has no merit and it sticks up my cra'

Boxing, Tao Kwan Do, Gung fu, they are all one and the same. They teach a person how to best use their body to varying degrees. Most of what I read speaks to an individual’s use of their art. If I took boxing, I could kick some butt. If I took judo, I’d wrap you up like a cheap x-mas gift from every one’s favorite Aunt. Gung fu allows me to count to 4 in Chinese and belong to a cool brotherhood. Oh, and kick some a-s-s.

I could do any one of the above as a sport, if I choose, or not. Most folks I know who take boxing, do so to learn how to defend themselves or to fight otherwords. Sport is a choice. It is a practitioner’s choice to partake in sport. Many choose not to or do both.

I would disagree with the opinion that boxing would enhance a gung fu player's ability to fight. I see it the other way around. Gung fu would be a great choice for a boxer to enhance their skills; if the teacher they choose, teaches how to fight and not concentrate solely on forms and/or weapons.

Of course, this is simply my slanted view on ‘martial arts’.

nospam.
:cool:

Xebsball
12-07-2001, 09:31 PM
Sharky does boxing and used to train Wing Chun, maybe he can give you info/comparation between styles.


I havent read all that you guys wrote, its too much stuff.
But i get the feeling this thread has become contaminated with the "seed of evil", the root of MMA vs KUNG FU all over again

Satanachia
12-07-2001, 10:59 PM
Boxers do block jabs, usually with a slap parry or metal block. Only thing is, when performed with gloves on it pretty much looks like they are just punching each others gloves.

straight blast
12-08-2001, 02:17 AM
Let's just begin by saying this... I've sparred a lot of Boxers & a lot of MA's, and I have to say that I've never sparred an experienced boxer who can't fight, but I've sparred plenty of "experienced MA's who can't. Learning boxing is a good thing.
BUT
The boxing guard is about as unrealistic as the Tae Kwon Do sport guard in a real fight. It's great to block a nice big 16 oz glove, but a vertical fist fits nicely up in between the forearms (or fists) and tends to smash one squarely in the nose. Speaking from experience here, the receiving end. And they are very vulnerable to leg kicks (obviously) and throws. If you don't believe me put a Thai neck grapple on next time you clinch during sparring.
Another fave is when a boxer is predictably ducking to raise your knee into his duck. it hurrrrts.
I'm not putting crap on boxing. I'm a boxer myself, and I sincerely recommend adding it to your training reigime. But please don't come under the common mistake that boxing is all you need. It is a ring sport, and a good one, but it is not a street art. Try boxing someone with a knife. Plus the biggest s**tter with boxing is:
The bigger guy almost always wins.
Are you always gonna be the bigger guy?
Please don't hit me with statistics of "X beat Y at the hollywood bowl & he's 25 kilos lighter" because that is ring fighting. Big Difference.
Get into the boxing, then once you're proficient, get into the Muay Thai.

respectmankind
12-08-2001, 02:23 AM
My own view, boxing is the best striking form out there. Not saying that a boxer is better than any MA, because alot of boxers a limited by there style. Everyone that submits to one way, and does not reconise that alot of the technique you are taught is not ment for an actual fight, but ment to build atrributes that will be used in a fight is being limited. The sad thing is, it is not the form limiting them, it is there selves.

lowsweep
12-08-2001, 09:04 AM
Thanks for all the replies! I'll pick up boxing if i can find a good place. Mainly what I am interested in boxing is the punching. Boxing punches have better form than a lot of MA because of the way they line up the wrist, arm, and body. If I do take boxing, I will not just be a boxer. Boxing, as I see it, has the best of some aspects of MA,. However, it is severely lacking in others. Lets face it, most boxers don't train to fight somebody who's going to kick low, shoot in, throw, lock, etc. I think it could be extremely effective when paired with another MA that trains for and uses some of boxing's weaknesses. Also, I'd really like to have a way to test and practice what I learn in other MA against a boxer, as some of you have said.

Kungfu cowboy: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIP ON THE SCHOOL do you know much about it? I will go and check it out as soon as I can. Where do you people come up with these places??? I look everywhere, yellow pages, ask people, drive down the road and slam on the breaks every time i see a place...thanks so much
-lowsweep

Sharky
12-08-2001, 09:27 AM
" So what you wanna know? "

fa_jing
12-10-2001, 02:19 PM
ttt

lowsweep
12-22-2001, 04:16 PM
I am interested in studying western boxing, and I have found a place to take it. However, I have talked to several docters, and almost all say it is going to give me brain damage. I think there is a misconception between training boxing and holyfield and tyson hammering each other to a pulp. I am wondering if the training for boxing includes taking lots of head shots, how long do you train before you start to get hit a lot, and how dangerous is amateur boxing? Amatuer boxing has headgear and it's for points, you don't have to kill the other guy, but still, it looks like most amateur boxers are trying to knock you out with every shot from what I have seen. Also, how effective is the headgear worn by amateur boxers? If I do take boxing, I will probably not be competing as my parents are very much against it (not against full contact sparring, though, go figure). If I just train and do little or no competing, am I still going to get a whole lot of brain damage?
thanks,
adam

Budokan
12-23-2001, 10:59 AM
If you wear appropriate headgear and follow safety precautions, you should be okay.

wufupaul
12-23-2001, 03:03 PM
I had the same type of questions before I started to train in full contact for awhile. I asked a teacher I had, a clinical neuropsychologist about it. He said that getting hit at all, even lightly over a long period of time can cause damage. Of course, I wasn't getting whacked in the head with a bat, so I wasn't too worried about it. I think that getting hit in the head every once in a while won't cause too much damage, at least I hope not, haha.

Cyborg
12-26-2001, 07:53 PM
uhh, i dont c wut da big deal is guys. i been boxing fer a long time and i ain't no worse for it! Just kidding! Practice smart and don't take too much, quit if it gets bad. It's great fun and I learned alot from it.

shaolinboxer
01-02-2002, 11:21 AM
Boxing does not necessarily lead to brain damage, especially if you are not trying to become a pro but rather just develop technique.

I also recommend NOT borrowing gloves. You could get infections on your hands (I have).

Boxing is great fun! Enjoy!

Spark
01-02-2002, 12:52 PM
I BAX AL THE TAME AN ME BRAN IS STIL GUD

Kristoffer
01-04-2002, 01:49 PM
its good for ya

Mr Nunchaku
01-09-2002, 12:18 PM
This is really a joke more than anything, but I really would like to know the answer to this.

In boxing, are backfists legal? How about spinning backfists?

Are knife and ridge hands legal (it is hard to form a knife or ridge hand with the gloves but the motion can be applied)? Basically, is any formation of the hand allowed other than the punch?

Are stances legal (like front, back middle etc)?

Is jump attacking allowed (like leaping forward and doing a downward punch as you land on the opponent's head)?

Here's the big question. Are blocks, parries and evasive attacks of that such allowed in boxing?

If so, I wonder what people think if a boxer did all this stuff.

GunnedDownAtrocity
01-09-2002, 12:22 PM
backfists are not legal. any motion of the arm resembeling a back fist is not legal, though im not sure what the penelties are.

i assume you can use any stance you wish, but i don't know of any more practical than the boxers front fighting stance for boxing.

i don't think you are allowed to jump at your opponent.

blocks and evasive movements are absolutely legal. havent you ever heard the phrase bob and weave?

Ford Prefect
01-09-2002, 12:33 PM
Just to add to the answer:

You are allowed to jump at somebody if you feel inclined as well as stay in stances. You can block and parry, but you can't trap or impede the your opponents arms by holding, etc.

Badger
01-09-2002, 12:36 PM
Don't go into a deep stance against a Boxer,you will be eaten alive.

From my experience backfists,reverse punches & ridgehands are not that effective esp. with gloves on.
For self-defense I find a hammerfist is better than a backfist,The cross is better than the reverse punch & A palm slap is better & safer than a ridgehand.

In Boxing you want to keep it simple,fast,accurate & powerful.Hands up & chin down.






Badger

Shooter
01-09-2002, 12:37 PM
What Ford Perfect said....Frazier comes to mind as someone who used the leaping hook to good effect.

fmann
01-09-2002, 12:38 PM
You can clinch, but that's only for defensive and resting purposes, to break the rhythm of the opponent. Good boxers can tie up the arms of their opponents and buy time.

As for punches, backfists are illegal, but i think knife hand type techniques could be gotten away with (with gloves on) since they could appear to be poorly structured hooks.

Paul
01-09-2002, 12:46 PM
but i think knife hand type techniques could be gotten away with (with gloves on) since they could appear to be poorly structured hooks.

why not just throw a proper hook? that's what I would do.

Nichiren
01-09-2002, 01:04 PM
fmann; Hocks that don't connect with the knuckles are illegal and you will get warned and eventually disscualified during a fight.

GunnedDownAtrocity
01-09-2002, 01:51 PM
i prefer the backfist to hammerfist.

i personally find it easier to settle and twist into the strike with my fist verticle .. . just a matter of opinion though.

DelicateSound
01-09-2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Shooter
What Ford Perfect said....Frazier comes to mind as someone who used the leaping hook to good effect.

Joe Frazier kicked butt. Ever see the punch Ali took off him? Where he got up after 3 secs?

Ali is my hero. :D

shaolinboxer
01-09-2002, 02:15 PM
It is my understanding that backfist are illegal due to the lack of padding on the top of the glove.

Can anyone confirm this?

fmann
01-09-2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Nichiren
fmann; Hocks that don't connect with the knuckles are illegal and you will get warned and eventually disscualified during a fight.

but i'm saying in the heat of a fight, they may not be noticed.

myosimka
01-09-2002, 02:54 PM
Maybe you can explain to me the difference between a right cross and a reverse punch in a left lead stance. We use the term interchangeably.

GunnedDownAtrocity
01-09-2002, 02:56 PM
reverse punch snaps out straight like a jab . .. cross cuts through the target at an angle. i guess a cross would kinda be like the inbetween of a jab and a hook.

SevenStar
01-10-2002, 04:51 AM
the reverse punch is more comparable to the straight right than it is to the cross.

scotty1
01-10-2002, 05:50 AM
So a straight right is not a cross?
I thought a cross was just a powerful straight right, kind of ****ed by the left jab?

Can someone explain then - cross
straight right/reverse punch

GunnedDownAtrocity
01-10-2002, 07:58 AM
i thought i did.

the jab is going to hit the guy in the nose and send the energy through the back of his head.

the cross is going to hit the guy in the cheak and send energy through his face to the other side of his cheak.

that's the most concise way i can think of to explain the difference right now.

GunnedDownAtrocity
01-10-2002, 07:59 AM
i would think that crosses are better setups for uppercuts as it can turn the opponents head a little, but im no boxer.

scotty1
01-10-2002, 09:29 AM
Wouldn't a shot that sent the energy from one cheek to the other ie.sideways have to hit from the side ie. a hook or hooked cross?

I thought that a cross was a straight power punch.

fa_jing
01-10-2002, 09:55 AM
Hmm, I always wondered about this too. I think I know what a cross is, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Stand in a boxers' stance, with your elbows down. Let's take the lead hand, vertical fist. A staight lead (jab) goes straight out. A lead hook takes a curved path, making impact with the side of the opponents head. Another punch, which I think is the cross, is if the opponents head is already on the inside of your lead, then you just turn your forearm towards horizontal and strike to the side, lifting slightly the elbow and driving your now horizontal fist into the opponent's face. This is different from the other punches in that now your shoulder is not behind the punch at the moment of impact. Also, your vertical fist has become a horizontal fist, without twisting the wrist-the rotation takes place at your shoulder joint. I think this punch is pretty useful, I've used it in sparring and I see it sometimes in boxing. I usually do this with the lead arm, but one could also throw this punch with the rear. So, is this a cross, if not then what's this punch called?
-FJ

SevenStar
01-11-2002, 11:03 AM
An added benefit of the cross is that your shoulder is raised, protecting your chin from a counter by your opponent.

Water Dragon
01-11-2002, 12:10 PM
The right cross begins in a very similar fashion to a Northern Style Gong Fu punch. The front hip joint will close which creates a horizontal force vector. From the perspective of the person throwing the punch, the energy travels from right to left. At the same time, The rear foot grinds off the ball of the foot. This is how the boxer puts his weight into the punch, it adds a back to front vector to the punch. When we combine the two vectors, we get a spiraling energy. Pretty much a Gong Fu punch in principle. The means are slightly different, but the ends are the same.

To me, the big difference is in what the arm is doing. In my punch, the arm is “flung out” by the rotation of the body and lands with a “thud”. It produces less penetration than the cross, but more of an explosive feeling in the punchee’s body. Closer to a black jack. Hence, it is important in CMA to keep the elbow down.

In a right cross, the body creates an additional spiral in the body. The arm is “launched” in a similar manner to my Taiji punch, as the arm comes out, it begins to spiral. The elbow turns from a bottom down to a bottom up position. At the end of a right cross, the thumb is usually pointing down. What makes the cross unique is this spiral in the arm movement. It gives the punch less of an explosive feel, but increases penetration. To me, a solid right cross feels more like getting hit with a bat than a black jack.

Maybe we have a boxer who could get into it more?

bamboo_ leaf
01-11-2002, 12:35 PM
I believe they are only allowed to hit using the front of the knuckles, this would tend to rule out all other types of strikes.

Many don’t realize the different but they have to punch though a glove. It’s a little different then punching with a bare hand. This changes the way, how a punch is delivered.

Also the clinching that many do, look closely and you will see that they use their forearms to slice and cut as this action is being preformed. Anther thing that some boxers I used to know like to do is punch into major muscle groups in the arm. Has a tendency of making you drop the arm, not a good thing to do. :)

Boxers are very tough and sophisticated in their art. They train to give and take. good people to work with.

don't make the misstake that a young leaf did that is, to box with them. Use your art. If what you do happens to look like or resamble boxing then i wish you lots of luck/ they pick up very fast. so haveing or doing something that they haven't seen before may work for a little while.

the longer you stay the more the danger. :)

Nichiren
01-11-2002, 02:07 PM
Here is a way to check if you have good technique while throwing e.g. a right cross. Stand close to a wall with your right shoulder against the wall. Throw a right cross slow and observe the following:

1. Does your elbow hit the wall?
If it does you are not choosing the shortest path and some of the energy when connecting with the punch will "leak" from the elbow(simple physics). The punch is also more easily seen and may be countered/blocked.

2. In the end stage is the shoulder protecting the jaw?
Don't need explaining here...

3. Are you relaxed until the last moment?
Economy of motion and a faster punch.

4. Do you hit with the first two knuckles?
More of the energy hits the target due to a straight line from the shoulder, through the elbow and fist, and the cross is longer.

5. When you pull the punch back the fist should follow a straight line back and in the end protecting the jaw(no dip in the movement).

That was som right-cross theory. When adding movement, body positioning, hip movement etc. it actually gets very complexed. This is why boxers train fundametals a big portion of their time.

Water Dragon
01-11-2002, 02:20 PM
NIIIIIIICEE

Care to go into more detail on point 3? I'm curious as to how you view the tensing on impact. Thanks

SevenStar
01-11-2002, 04:02 PM
"The elbow turns from a bottom down to a bottom up position. At the end of a right cross, the thumb is usually pointing down. What makes the cross unique is this spiral in the arm movement."

yup. There are some good posts here, ttt for a a response from nichiren.

yuanfen
01-11-2002, 04:18 PM
For a standard stance( everything will be opposite for a south paw)- the left jab is the basic bread and butter of good boxing-
its mechanics are different from other punches- so good jabbing takes a long time to learn well. The straight right is just that- a straight right... in earlier times people seldom led witha straight right. Nowadays folks with fast hands will sometimes shoot out a staright right. A cross is different- it is usually a counter punch- crossing over the left jab of the other fellow. Hooks and uppercuts are usually not lead weapons- though a good guy can close witha feinting jab and hook.
Jabs, straight rights, hooks and upper cuts... basic building blocks--
but the variations- permutations and combinations are many.

SevenStar
01-11-2002, 06:48 PM
Using the cross as a counter was on my list of things to point out, but ya beat me to it. Good post.

Nichiren
01-12-2002, 06:22 PM
3. Are you relaxed until the last moment?

OK Water Dragon. I'm not a golden glove champion(16 matches 14 wins) but I will try to explain how to know if you throw a "relaxed cross".

Take a ordinary tennis boll, bounch it with you r left jab and try to catch it with your right cross.when you throw the cross it should be relaxed and when you catch the boll you normally tense up. It is the same movement and physics while throwing a cross(not a jab).

I can elabortate on the other punches and movements if you give me some time!!! Just say when... and what...

SevenStar
01-12-2002, 06:38 PM
how about some footwork drills?

Mr Nunchaku
01-12-2002, 06:55 PM
You guys have really turned this into a good topic. Nice job.

Nichiren
01-12-2002, 06:56 PM
Some footwork drills......

If you have a training partner, try to stamp one of hes feet. He will of course try to stamp one of you feet. Shadow boxing is also a great exercise for the feet. Imagien§ a foe in front of you and hit him and counter him...

Another good exercise is have a friend extend his arms and stand still. You move in and duck under his arms and throw punches. If you throw a punch(uppercut etc.) and feel that your balance is off you are doing something wrong!! Try agin...

Have a guy holding mits and move towards you, to the sides or back. If you at any stage feel that you can't deliver a descent cross or a jab you aren't moving the feet ond are not keeping the proper distance(keepin a good distance is really important).

BAI HE
01-12-2002, 07:07 PM
Turn the hips and shouders on the inside (preferablY) and strike across the chin/jaw at a 45 degree angle thus snapping the head away from the forward body structure (ie : exposed jugular , lead weight bearing stance) procucing a compression/twisting effect of the major ciculation and nervous systems.

The Jab? Straight punch thrown with zip from the hip. Primarily used as a distance keeper and a means to control what kind of dance it's going to be.
Establish the jab and keeping said opponent at your preferred range will come easy (see Douglas vs. Tyson). Ali jabbed people to death and weathered may storms with nothing but a good stiff jab. All those little flicks (Jabs) that you saw? Joe Frazier will tell you that it looks like a little flick, but that they were hard and draining shots to take round after round.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

ALI WAS THE BEST THERE EVER WAS.

SevenStar
01-12-2002, 07:15 PM
Nah, not like that, more movement specific. For example, I'm mobile while on the outside, but soon as I close I'm stuck. I like being inside, as I have solid punches, knees and elbows, but moving back out and angling are difficult, particulary if I try to do so rapidly. I'll use a simple one-two combo. I jab, then when I plant my foot for the cross or straight right/left, I am stuck there, like I'm putting too much weight on my foot.

So I guess, what I'm looking for are some drills to keep me light on my feet.

Water Dragon
01-12-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Nichiren

Take a ordinary tennis boll, bounch it with you r left jab and try to catch it with your right cross.when you throw the cross it should be relaxed and when you catch the boll you normally tense up. It is the same movement and physics while throwing a cross(not a jab).


Very interesting. When I was first taught how to punch, I was told to pretend I'm grabbing something. Even though it sounds like we are doing the exact same thing, I was told not to tense at all. It was explained to me that the impact will cause the body to tense naturally, with no conscious thought on your part. Strange how we really are all more similar than different, no? :D

Here's another one, I have a stiff, fast jab for a CMA'er. However, it's still relatively slow compared to a boxer. When I throw it, I think of the line of force as going from my back foot to my fist. I usually don't focus on throwing the jab out, but keep the intent on pulling back. I can get two off OK, but I really want to be able to triple up on my jab, any thoughts? Thanks

Apprentice
01-12-2002, 10:34 PM
Hey waterdragon, try this, practice throwing it 3(or more) times tons of times, but make sure the form is the correct thing, and "THrough stregnth will come gentleness, and through gentleness will come strenght" only way to do something better is to practice

SevenStar
01-12-2002, 10:44 PM
Funny thing about boxing gloves....they actually increase trauma to the head, and the possibility of brain damage.

I would say, as with most things, do it in moderation. The training itself is not going to give you brain damage - it's continually sparring at full contact. That will happen with any art if you are constantly going at it full contact. Spar at about 30-40% and only go all out once a month or so.

Xebsball
01-13-2002, 07:10 AM
Freitas beat Casamayor

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Xebsball
01-13-2002, 07:16 AM
Tito and Vitor were watching too.

SevenStar
01-13-2002, 10:29 PM
ttt for an answer

greedy
01-14-2002, 01:07 AM
water dragon,

To increase the ease of your jab, try not to hit so hard!! Your jab is a different blow to the straight left, and should be thrown a little bit like trying to swat a fly.

Use as little tension as possible throughout the stroke, and initially don't put too much shoulder into it. It slows the retraction of the arm, and hence slows the entire combination. Instead, try just flicking it out, similar to the tongue of snake.(wow, I just continue to impress with these analogies!!)

The main thing is to always remember the purpose of your punching...you are not going to knock too many people out with the left jab. Instead, it obstructs vision, waters the eyes (of mainly inexperienced boxers) and makes the opponent move where you want them to.

Practice slowly at first, concentrating on using as few muscles as possible to move the arm, and gradually increase the speed. You probably wont ever throw four or five quick jabs in succession, as you waste energy and a good opponent will have you seeing stars with a good right cross.

Cheers.

SevenStar
01-15-2002, 12:17 AM
ttt for footwork drills

NPMantis
08-05-2002, 01:02 PM
I have two quick questions, if anyone could help me I'd really really appreciate it!

The first is I was wondering for those of you who have done Western Boxing, I'd like to go and train in a boxing gym near me but I was wondering how they feel about people who don't want to spar with others, I don't want to be the best boxer in the world or anything, just improve on my punching speed and power - do I have to spar? If not do people look down on it or anything?

The second question I was wondering is how you guys deal with people when sparring who come in fast and basically throw many fast punches - do you actually try and block all of these or deal with them differently?

Thanks so much for any help!

Regards,

NPMantis

Ford Prefect
08-05-2002, 01:44 PM
1) There are plenty of people at boxing gyms who don't spar.

2) Footwork. If you have good footwork, a "straigh blast" type of attack should be easily avoided.

LEGEND
08-05-2002, 03:24 PM
Why don't u want to spar??? You don't have to spar the GOLDEN GLOVE wannabe...but u should address this issue to your COACH and he will assist u. In terms of sparring, u don't have to spar the anyone but the COACH...he'll give u openings so u can SCORE...it's not like he's going to destroy u.

TaoBoy
08-05-2002, 05:49 PM
NPM, don't you think some sparring would be advantageous? It should show the application of what you learn outside the ring.

Ka
08-05-2002, 06:36 PM
Most of the work you well start off with is pad and bag work,so no sparring if you don't want to. I wouldn't be surpised if after you feel good about your pad and bag that you will want to spar.


Boxers use footwork in combination with upper body movement.One of the best things about getting in the ring is learning to use the confined area effectively.

As for dealing with fast punches! perhaps you haven't been on the receiving end of a combination set.There are a lot of boxers who can throw fast hard and actually hit there target.:D

NPMantis
08-06-2002, 02:13 AM
Thanks a lot for your replies everyone, really helped a lot!

I don't really want to spar as basically I don't want to get repeatedly hit in the head. I know people may say it isn't 'realistic' but I wouldn't like to get hit in the head repeatedly unless I had to - not to sound like a wuss or anything!

Thanks again!

NPMantis

Crimson Phoenix
08-06-2002, 02:42 AM
Uhh?? In 4 years of savate, I've never seen a boxing club where they didn't spar (uh, I said savate, but we'd train exclusively english boxing sometimes, so I feel as if I can fit in the "western boxing category" hehehehe)...actually, boxing, IS sparring, the rest is just a warm up or basic training...
As for the flurry of punches, most of the time it's useless, except if you just want to exert yourself or be open to a counter...remember you have thick gloves, and sodoes the guy next to you. What could work in a self defense situation won''t in a ring: with these heavy gloves, you just tuck your chin in your shoulder, squeeze your elbows, contract your stomach, bow your head, raise your hand to cover your head and you just stay there and receive the rain of punches without much troubles (remember, the guy hitting you has the big gloves too, so he can't really pass through the guard). Actually this tactic is only used to put pressure on someone, and then slowing the rythm down to make the guy believe it's over and react, and THEN, only then when he tries a counter attack you try to pin him. Basically you just put the pressure on him and then make him believe you're slowing down so that he thinks it becomes safe and tries to retaliate. But the flurry itself, if the guy has a correct guard stance, is quite unharmful to him. With bare hands, it would be quite different (then, the flurry has much more chances to land a blow, so the WC theory is, IMO, worthy), but not with boxing gloves on.
My savate instructor loved to make us box without gloves somtimes, just so thaat we can realize that things that work with them can become useless without them.
Also, when you are tucked like that receiving all these punches (it really doesn't hurt that much if you stay a little vigilant and weave and bob andd adjust here and there to receive), you have ample time to see think, cool down, and prepare a retaliation, usually one single forceful blow to an area you just saw uncovered (it happens quite often when you're trying to drown someone under punches, thaat you yourself uncover some areas without noticing), so that whether you land it or not the guy has a defense reaction and you can resume the normal pace of the match, or side step, or step back, or take the lead back and put the pressure.

Ford Prefect
08-06-2002, 06:55 AM
NP,

I was on my college's boxing team (practice 5 days/week for 2-3 hours) and was the captain at one point. Don't worry about getting hurt. There were days when I got hit so hard that I'd have a headache after, but I'm fine. I only forget things like my mother's name and where I live. No big deal. :) J/K. Don't sweat the sparring though.

Asia
08-06-2002, 07:26 AM
CP,

I took Savate in France and we did PLENTY of sparring. Everyone was encouraged to do so but not forced. It a good way to see how you methods work against something the the meancing air and that big bully of a punching bag.:D

NPMantis
08-07-2002, 04:42 AM
Thanks for all your thoughts, I am going to start boxing the week after next when I give up work - I will have about 6-8 weeks off so I'm going to try it then.

I am thinking about sparring, I think I'll see when I get there how I feel about it, I guess you wear head-protection.

Cheers again everyone!

guohuen
08-07-2002, 09:01 AM
A good boxing coach will pair you off with someone not only your weight class, but age and ability as well. In my observation there are many more competant boxing coaches around than other martial arts teachers. Don't worry about getting hit as much as being winded. You'll get used to having your bell rung rather quickly. Having wind and keeping your arms up will take longer.
Enjoy!
P.S. Work your opponents body. Don't think about KO shots unless they give you a gift. Keep your guard up!;)

Former castleva
08-07-2002, 10:26 AM
And if you are not that much into rough boxing you may take up cardio/fitness (whatever my spelling brings...) boxing (they may spar a bit but the aim is slightly different)

DragonzRage
08-07-2002, 10:38 AM
Its your money. if you don't wanna spar most trainers could care less. As long as u pay them they'll hold the mitts for you. However, this may also mean that they won't take u as seriously as they would their fighters and potential fighters. I see my muay thai trainer do this all the time. Although he works with all the people who train under him, he really devotes the vast majority of his attention and effort to those of us who fight. So its your choice, but IMO you're really gonna limit your progress if u do not spar. Its not dangerous at all! As long as you work up to it and stair step your training there's nothing hard about it. Drill your technique diligently and when your trainer decides to start you sparring, start it out light and easy and then work your way up to going harder and harder as it gets more comfortable for you. You'll be fine. Besides, you'll be wearing puffy gloves, a mouthpiece and a head protector...how can you really get hurt?

As for dealing with someone who throws flurries, you can counter by using angles. Use footwork to get out of the way, but don't just run away repeatedly because you'll never be able to set up counters this way and he'll eventually start cutting off the ring and cornering you. Cover when u have to. That's the basic idea. You'll need a trainer to really show u the finer points.

NPMantis
08-12-2002, 03:11 AM
Hi All,

I've found a club near me, (10 min walk) they 'meet' Mon, Wed, Fri eve and Sun morning (I have kung fu on both Mon and Wed, doh!) so I'm going to ring them up and try out a class, if I can get down there twice a week I'll be happy.

On another note I don't think anyone spars straight away but after they have gotton a little better and some people never spar if they don't feel they are ready, it looks like a good club, just hope I enjoy it!

Will let you all know how it goes! (I am going to start in just over a week - I finish my temporary job this Friday and I'm going to take 6-8 weeks off to apply for permanent jobs and train, hooray!)

Take care,

NPMantis

Water Dragon
08-16-2002, 07:50 AM
I found this article linked from shenwu.com. It should make for a good discussion. Enjoy


http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_jacomb_0801.htm#EN1

guohuen
08-16-2002, 08:09 AM
That was pretty cool. I never would have seen that connection.

yenhoi
08-16-2002, 08:50 AM
:cool:

TjD
05-26-2003, 05:12 PM
anyone have a link, or know which strikes aren't allowed in boxing? i'm assuming things like hammerfists and backfists aren't allowed?

how about the rules for how legs are governed? sure there arent any kicks but how aggressive can your footwork be without you getting yelled at?


a local gym has an amateur boxing night where i can just strap on some gloves and go at it, and i'm looking to test my wing chun against some boxers (just for the heck of it). i'd like to know what exactly i can and can't do :D

Chang Style Novice
05-26-2003, 05:15 PM
No shoes or boots with springs allowed. (http://www.vipers.co.uk/boxing_rules.htm)

TjD
05-26-2003, 05:27 PM
ugh i read through those regulations at the bottom, and while they mentioned illegal blows they didnt say what blows are illegal :(

LEGEND
05-26-2003, 06:27 PM
There's only 4 punches in boxing( jab cross uppercut and hooks )...
If u want to test your wing chun with boxers then go to a boxing gym and spar with boxers but let them know that u plan to kickbox with them. U try that at this amateur event u'll get disqualified and u'll get JUMPED.

TjD
05-26-2003, 09:51 PM
i guess i might have to go down those lines. dont wanna get jumped now :D


seriously, you can only do jap cross uppercut and hook in boxing???

joedoe
05-26-2003, 09:53 PM
You can use the windmill technique if you want :D

Serpent
05-26-2003, 09:57 PM
"Only jab, uppercut, cross and hook"?

Think about the combos available. There's no "only" about it! ;)

TjD
05-26-2003, 10:25 PM
well yeah..

combos are great and all. that just seems weird to me, really restrictive-like.

anyways, i guess im gonna go with my original plan and go there and talk to whoevers there. see what i can arrange to get my ass kicked (er punched).

brassmonkey
05-26-2003, 11:56 PM
jab cross hook might not connect with your wing chun thinking maybe better to think to hit with the front knuckles part of the glove, good luck and let us know how it goes

SanSoo Student
05-27-2003, 12:07 AM
My favorite move in boxing is the Dempsey Roll..
A move were you use shoulder feints and move your head in a figure 8 motion and as you are moving left to right, you slam crosses with the momentum from the figure 8.

Nichiren
05-27-2003, 12:10 AM
If you look at the amateaurgloves you often see that the front of the gloves have a white field, over the knuckles. You can throw any type of punch you want but you must hit with this white area.

/Cheers

Shaolin-Do
05-27-2003, 07:24 AM
I was going to go to a boxing gym to fight, but I found out there is vale tudo here in town. The guys at the vale tudo school are down to fight anyone, so methinks Ill go fight them instead. :)

LEGEND
05-27-2003, 07:42 AM
I have a wing chun background...and a boxing background...I found that knowing LESS techniques will allow you to focus more on your game. Just cause u know 20 techs. doesn't mean u can apply all 20. Boxers need to know 4 punches and various combinations...and they apply it in sparring all the time. If u're entering a boxing tournament u follow boxing rules...u want kung fu...then enter a SAN SHOU tourney.

TjD
05-27-2003, 09:16 AM
i would if i could find a frickin san shou tourney in the area :( i have been looking. hell i posted awhile ago asking if anyone knew about any san shou in the albany area and only got deafening silence :(


i wasn't talking about technique when i thought 4 punches was restrictive. i just like to be able to get my fist to the target the fastest way from wherever my fist happens to be.

LEGEND
05-27-2003, 09:52 AM
If u're going to just unleash a punch out there wherever your hand is going to be then u might be PITTY PATTING...means lack of KO power. Since u're goal seems to be self defense...get together with a boxer...and workout in terms of sparring...see if u're punches can snap his headback...if it doesn't...u're not doing much.

David Jamieson
05-27-2003, 10:09 AM
There are 2 accepted sets of rules for modern boxing.

Those are the rules of the WBC (world boxing commision) and the WBA (world boxing association). The rules as applied by each of these organizations are almost identical with few exceptions.

Here is a link where you can download each set of rules in pdf form.

http://www.vipers.co.uk/boxing_rules.htm

Of course, you can get them elsewhere on the web. But for the sake of point them out...

anyway, here is one observation. You are NOT restricted to uppercuts, jabs, crosses and hooks. You may strike with the gloved hand in anyway you like. Back hands, hammerfists, raking blows, you name it, you can use it so long as it involves the gloved part of the hand.

Boxers gravitate to the big four by reason of efficiency and time to target. But using a backfist is by no means illegal or a foul. There are accidental blows such as thumb jabs which are considered "dirty" and if noticed by the ref, you will be cornered for it but not disqualified.

Anyway, take your time to read these rules if you're really interested.

cheers

Serpent
05-27-2003, 08:29 PM
So if a boxer pulled off a spinning backfist he wouldn't be penalised for it?

brassmonkey
05-27-2003, 08:29 PM
Lkfdmc hosts sanshou & sanda in nyc. He posts on here and the kickboxing section of mma.tv check out the thread "San Da in NY" overe there, here's an exerpt from Lkfdmc on a san da tournie in nov.:

"this will be amateur tournament so shin guards and head gear (with cup and mouth piece) will be required, A+ super fights probably no head gear though.... "

I don't know how you train but I'd recommend watching 1 of these events first, makes you think long and hard about entering when you see people carried away in stretchers.

joedoe
05-27-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Serpent
So if a boxer pulled off a spinning backfist he wouldn't be penalised for it?

As long as he didn't make contact using the back of the fist. The contact has to be made with the front of the fist (as in the knuckles). So even a 'palm' strike would be illegal.

Serpent
05-27-2003, 08:56 PM
Well, either you or kung lek are full of sh1t, cos what you both just said is mutually exclusive. ;)

KL reckons you can hit with any part of the glove, which would include the back. You say no.

Come on, guys, let's get some consensus happening here!

:)

joedoe
05-27-2003, 09:09 PM
Well, I am no expert but from what I understand in boxing you cannot hit with the back of the glove. I am quite happy to accept that I am full of sh!t :D

David Jamieson
05-27-2003, 09:11 PM
jd-

it's hard to do a palm strike with boxing mitts on, but...there is often times a palm shoved at the forehead to target a strike for instance.

The rules of boxing are interesting that way if you read them.
Accidentals, like a headbutt can be ruled as such or it can be ruled as a foul.

cheers

Serpent
05-27-2003, 09:18 PM
So can a boxer legally do a spinning backfist or not?

CrippledAvenger
05-28-2003, 12:45 AM
Serpent--

Under modern rules, I believe no. But, I know there was a period of time right after the adoption of the Marquis of Queensbury rules when a variant on the backfist was used prominently. the backfist was also big in bare knuckle boxing, though not really spinning, IMO.

Interestingly enough, before a rewrite of the rules in the 30's (I think?) there was a light heavyweight champion named Slapsie Maxie Rosenbloom who specialized in using and open handed "slap" as opposed to a fist. Had a pretty impressive record if I remember correctly, though not many KOs, take that as you will. But an open-handed hit is Illegal, I believe these days, probably because it could be used to lace an oppenent's face-- but that's just speculation.

edit: I remembered what they called the boxing version of the spinning backfist, "the pivot punch", but I can't remember when it was made illegal. Anyhow, the point is, if you read through old boxing books and you come across that term, then that's what they were referring to, if I'm remembering correctly.

CrippledAvenger
05-28-2003, 12:51 AM
Kung Lek-- Good point. Fouls are really only fouls when called. I've heard stories about what Harry Greb would do to people when the ref wasn't looking that would make many MMA guys cringe. Hell, young Tyson used to throw elbows like Hugh Hefner throws parties, and he's the most recent dirty boxer that I can think of.

there's a grand tradition of cheating in boxing that we haven't even begun to talk about-- rabbit punching, elbowing, low blows, lacing, stepping on feet...

David Jamieson
05-28-2003, 06:12 AM
serp-

a spinning backfist is probably not an very effective attack in boxing.

It involves turning your back on your opponent.
I don't think it is illegal, it's just not used.

But as new boxers enter the ranks, we a starting to see more and more unorthodox techniques.

As far as I know, there is no biting, no kicking, no gouging(thumbs to eyes), no headbutts and you can onbly strike with the gloved portion of the hand.

the glove forces your hand into a fist, so an open hand strike is not the easiest thing to do in a pair of mitts.

cheers

ewallace
05-28-2003, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
I was going to go to a boxing gym to fight, but I found out there is vale tudo here in town. The guys at the vale tudo school are down to fight anyone, so methinks Ill go fight them instead. :)
Rangel's?

Shaolin-Do
05-28-2003, 07:39 AM
Erm... Forgot the name. My friend used to go there a while back, wants to see instructor or the like, I agreed to go so I could find some people to fight with. :)
Still got 3 more weeks in this **** immobilizer tho.
:(

sticky fingers
06-19-2003, 07:27 AM
Western boxers, do you lift your back heel when you punch?
If you do - what kind of punch and why do you lift your back heel?

yuanfen
06-19-2003, 07:37 AM
Sticky fingers-
Varies. Much of the time for standard stance(opposite for south paws), the back heel will rise for many right hooks, the left heel for left hooks- for swivelling. Sometimes completely flat footed for a stepping in bomb or a quick sneaky right lead. Dem feet are always involved.
Much more to it for a punch... waist... shoulders etc.

yuanfen
06-19-2003, 07:39 AM
Sticky fingers-
Varies. Much of the time for standard stance(opposite for south paws), the back heel will rise for many right hooks, the left heel for left hooks- for swivelling. Sometimes completely flat footed for a bomb pr a quick sneaky right lead. Dem feet are always involved.
Much more to it for a punch... waist... shoulders etc.

shaolinboxer
06-19-2003, 07:43 AM
It depends on how far I want to reach. If they guy in a postion where I have an extra split second to hit him from a bit ****her away than is usually safe, me heel rises to give me a little extra room. Otherwise, lifting my heel tends to telegraph to better punchers and I get clocked.

Merryprankster
06-19-2003, 08:24 AM
Yeah, you lift it a bit, but it's not like it comes screaming off the ground or anything.

Black Jack
06-19-2003, 08:42 AM
If you are looking to research boxing power generation methods one of the best ways is to go read Jack Dempsey's work and his falling/drop step method.

Knifefighter
06-19-2003, 08:49 AM
Lifting and rotating the heal allows you to get maximum power for shots such as the cross or hook. This is madatory in just about all activities that require maximum power development in a non-vertical plane (punching, tennis strokes, golf drives, shot putting, discus, baseball swings, throwing a ball for distance or speed).

Lifting the heel also allows for maximum extension in the rear punching arm.

Merryprankster
06-19-2003, 08:50 AM
Knifefighter has caught the correct!

lowsweep
06-19-2003, 09:07 AM
I fight orthodox and my right heel lifts up during the cross. It goes up very little on hooks, if any. When you're boxing, you spend most of the time on your toes (unless you happen to be a brawler/puncher). When you go for a power shot, you want to start with both heels on the ground if you have the time. When I do a one-two, my weight begins mostly on my back (right) leg and my the weight is on the ball of my foot. I take a quick step forward with my left foot, planting the whole foot on the ground. As I step, my hips twist so my left side is more towards the target. As part of this motion, my left shoulder follows the hips and my left hand shoots out in a jab. As I jab, my weight shifts so it is divided equally between my two legs. As I pull back the jabbing hand, my right heel comes off of the ground, I push forward with my right leg, my hips twist the opposit way they did when I was jabbing, my right shoulder follows the hips, and my right arm shoots out towards the target with a lot of my weight behind it. At the end of the cross. my weight is mostly on my left (front) foot, my hips are completely open to the target, and my right foot is on the ball of the foot. This is an oversimplified description, but maybe it will give you a better idea of the power generation. If you want to see it, look at some videos of muhammed ali. He was ALWAYS on his toes, and therefore didnt use a lot of his power. Then look at a good puncher. Try Mike Tyson in the 80's. Notice how he will plant his feet and then move his weight into a power shot. As he moves his weight, his rear heel comes up on crosses and he pushes forward from the ball of his rear foot.

lowsweep
06-19-2003, 09:08 AM
I fight orthodox and my right heel lifts up during the cross. It goes up very little on hooks, if any. When you're boxing, you spend most of the time on your toes (unless you happen to be a brawler/puncher). When you go for a power shot, you want to start with both heels on the ground if you have the time. When I do a one-two, my weight begins mostly on my back (right) leg and my the weight is on the ball of my foot. I take a quick step forward with my left foot, planting the whole foot on the ground. As I step, my hips twist so my left side is more towards the target. As part of this motion, my left shoulder follows the hips and my left hand shoots out in a jab. As I jab, my weight shifts so it is divided equally between my two legs. As I pull back the jabbing hand, my right heel comes off of the ground, I push forward with my right leg, my hips twist the opposite way they did when I was jabbing, my right shoulder follows the hips, and my right arm shoots out towards the target with a lot of my weight behind it. At the end of the cross. my weight is mostly on my left (front) foot, my hips are completely open to the target, and my right foot is on the ball of the foot. This is an oversimplified description, but maybe it will give you a better idea of the power generation. If you want to see it, look at some videos of muhammed ali. He was ALWAYS on his toes, and therefore didnt use a lot of his power. Then look at a good puncher. Try Mike Tyson in the 80's. Notice how he will plant his feet and then move his weight into a power shot. As he moves his weight, his rear heel comes up on crosses and he pushes forward from the ball of his rear foot.

lowsweep
06-19-2003, 09:09 AM
oops, sorry for the double post

Silumkid
06-19-2003, 09:14 AM
All right then....so it seems as if all replies to this question have been "Yes, in boxing, the heel comes up."

Now, in Shaolin, I have been taught that one should pivot from and keep grounded the heels to get a "push" through the heel, up the leg into the waist, thus expressing power through the arm to the hand. I have also learned the other method of raising the heel in karate style and boxing. So my question to you all is, have you also tried both methods and if so, which do you prefer?

ShaolinTiger00
06-19-2003, 09:59 AM
The balls of your feet are the gas pedal.

The heels are your brakes.

norther practitioner
06-19-2003, 10:06 AM
which do you prefer?
depends

on range, twist, etc....

Christopher M
06-19-2003, 02:39 PM
Maybe it would be more clear to ask them if they're rooting through the ball of the foot or through the heel? For instance, even if you're rooting through the heel, the heel of one foot may lift up (if you're rooting through the other heel). I don't know anything about "shaolin", but you see this in the "internals" if you're advancing and rooting through the front foot, and the rear one does a follow step (rather than doing a bow as maybe is the more common way for shaolin?). Eg. (1) (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/ken/zuan01.gif) (2) (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/felipe/chicken/chicken02.jpg) (3) (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/felipe/bear03.gif) (4) (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/felipe/bear04.gif) from http://www.emptyflower.com

Sounds perhaps what like lowsleep was describing?

sticky fingers
06-20-2003, 03:25 AM
Thanks for the replies.

SilentMantis
08-16-2003, 05:24 PM
Throughout my sparring experiences, i find that the most difficult type of fighter to deal with is a boxer. They throw stiff, quick jabs and they can move well, making them hard to hit. What defense strategies should a mantis practitioner use against a boxer? Should we venture into learning boxing techniques such as slipping, ducking ect and incorporating them into mantis training in order to deal with this threat? Comments

northernJump
08-16-2003, 08:58 PM
what about using push kicks to keep them out of punching range. A lot of boxers have trouble defending agains kicks.

Xdr4g0nx
08-16-2003, 09:57 PM
I'm new to the art, but i think if we get in close and use a lot of trapping techniqes. Boxers dont really learn how to defend against that, watch one on tv when the start hugging each other they both look really confused. Also my sifu had eluded to the fact that we will learn differnent body movements to absorb the hits, or move part of our body out of harms way.

Youngmantis
08-16-2003, 11:11 PM
well if you were truly going to fight a boxer, lets say a real fight, no rules, just kick low at the knee caps

SilentMantis
08-16-2003, 11:41 PM
Thanks for your replies, and i agree with using low kicks to keep boxers out of punching range. However, i'm a little concerned with limiting myself to one technique. I do know that in a real fight my instinct tells me to kick right off the bat, but i'd like to be capable of more than that. what other alternatives?

Tainan Mantis
08-17-2003, 12:51 AM
SilentMantis,
It is good that you practice with other stylists like boxers.
There are a lot of good things to be said about boxing.

I believe that under boxing rules the method is close to perfect.
In other words you have to learn that style to play that game.

Since those 4 punches are already in Mantis it couldn't hurt to do that.

If you have a friend or partner who is willing to try his boxing vs your Mantis that is good too.
You will have a partner who is trying to hit your head very hard while you try to apply your Mantis.

This is a good way to practice after you are very fluent with some of your 2 man drills.

As for strategy.
My guess is your opponent is thinking offensive, not defensive.
You should have this mindset too.

NorthernMantis,

I don't suggest the pushkick because that is more useful in competitions where it is against the rules to grab the leg.

Youngmantis,
Although the knee kick seems good in theory rarely does it do anything(not including the takedown version).
This is from my own experience in local skill testing matches.
All I get is scraped or cut skin, but doesn't stop me.

This experience matches my shrfu's experience.
When the knee is bent it is very strong.

Also, this strategy, as well as the push kick strategy is "keep him away" mentality.
Contrast that with the "KO" stratagy of boxing.

More?
Mantis has an interesting habit of using the left hand to "seal" the opponents right hand while simultaneusly using the right hand to perform straight punch-hook punch combo.

This is called Di Lo(under leak) and is found in many Mantis forms.

CHAZ
08-17-2003, 10:08 AM
Ok what would you guy's do if the boxer you are fighting happend to be an ex kickboxer or even worse a thai boxer, someone who is comfatable in kicking range(especially low line kicks) and in grappling range for their use of elbows and knees

SilentMantis
08-17-2003, 11:09 AM
Chaz,
Dealing with kickboxers and thai boxers is a whole new topic. However, kick, thai, and just boxers have something in common. They all use the jab or the punch as a means to set up their next move. I've seen this through experience. I've taken thai boxing and sparred with kickboxers and boxers. This is why i think learning how to effectively use slipping, ducking, rolling, the snap back, and bob and weave will surprise these fighters and create an opening where one can unleash his mantis offense. Mantis already provides the footwork for this to be possible, and i think this is one of the best ways to deal with quick jabs and punches. You can't hit what's not there.

mantis108
08-17-2003, 01:03 PM
First off, I agree with Tainan. It won't hurt to know thy foe.

Some observation:

1) Boxers, especially street boxers, know how to clinch and fight in a clinch. They also have a bag of tricks that you will be caught off guard if you think in terms of sport version of it. So to do trapping is not really the safest bet.

2) I stress on Tainan's point about the lack of aggressiveness in quite a lot of Kung Fu stylists today. Boxers are trained to unleash hell in the smallest time frame possible. That's why they training in 3 mins rounds. If you manage to take that away from them, you will have a better chance of gaining the upper hand. You will have to gain dominance by literally knocking the wind out of them. Strong and fast side kick to the rib would work wonder except that your friend may not appreciate it as much as you would. I have tried with success on one of my students, who had amature league boxing experience and also outweighed me more than 50 lbs, the following technique. Once you get an openning in the centerline, you immediately chain punch the openning and don't let up no matter what. The idea is to get him back up and you follow in till the rope. That way you take the fight out of his hands. The problem is chain punch isn't a mantis technique per se. ;) The other thing is that it is not easy to pull off and when it does you have only one chance to work him. If he knows that you can do that on him, the chance of a repeat is not likely. BTW, chain punch to the centerline work better on boxers who have bad habits such as treading with the heels (re: poor footwork). So do collect intelligence before you make your move.

3) Defanging would be a good idea if boxer is going bare hand. They are used to wrapping their hands. Having iron hand isn't boxing's strong suit. Knocking their jabs around the back of the fist and/or wrist and eblow joint with your knuckles or elbow to destroy that weapon is simple and effective. Also the knife hands chop move in Beng bu 3rd road is also a handy technique for defanging. Againg I don't think your friend will appreciate these though because you are not following the boxing rule with these.

4) Thai boxers used to have great hand techniques until their art became sport and rules are set. Those gorgeous elbow techniques that they have is a reminder of that. Like Tainan pointed out before, the 4 punches and duck, rolling, slipping, snap back, parrying, etc... are in Mantis skill already(and I am talking about traditionally available). Whether the school or the teacher put focus on these things, it is going to be a different story. Mantis is great with close quarter combat stuff (elbows and knees) so I don't see where the concern of dealing with other close quarter styles comes from unless there is a shift in the training paradigm but to my knowledge any traditional mantis kung fu should have no problem with that.

Just some observations

Mantis108

bungda07
08-17-2003, 01:07 PM
Silent Mantis, You have the techniques in the Mantis system to deal with jabs/punches. You can utilize Body Methods(Shen Fa).
Dodging, fading back, shifting etc. I personnaly used to get caught up with learning everyone else's systems. I agree with you on the foot work of mantis. Great tool. Can you get hit by a Boxer?, sure. But within your system and constant practise you will find methods of dealing with it. One thing I won't do is play by the boxers game. They attack, I'll get out of the way. But, then it's my turn. I think it's great you get to practise with a boxer. They usually have such fast hands. Great way to see were you are at with your techniques.

good Luck,

V/r
Steve M.

SilentMantis
08-17-2003, 02:14 PM
I agree that scope of techniques in the mantis style is large. I just haven't seen these types of evasive tactics taught within forms. I do believe that learning and developing these tactics (slipping, ducking ect) will develope anyone into a more complete fighter. thanks for your help

mantis108
08-17-2003, 02:47 PM
Forms aren't be all end all despite the fact that they offer much of the great stuff including Shun Fa (body method). Besides one needs to drill the various pieces in the forms with a live and resistive partner to make sure things work the way they supposed to be. That's why there are drills, ling forms and 2 men forms beside fighting/sparring in PM training. I know schools such as Tainan Mantis, Ponglai and many others on this board are offering the practical and important skills of PM that you brought up. I'd encourage you to contact them to see for yourself if you feel like expanding your horrizon.

Mantis108

mantisben
08-17-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by SilentMantis
Throughout my sparring experiences, i find that the most difficult type of fighter to deal with is a boxer. They throw stiff, quick jabs and they can move well, making them hard to hit. What defense strategies should a mantis practitioner use against a boxer? Should we venture into learning boxing techniques such as slipping, ducking ect and incorporating them into mantis training in order to deal with this threat? Comments
In my own experience, it is hard to attack a boxer because they move soo well. I have to counter-attack off the boxers Jabs and Hooks. I usually switch between using the 1st or 2nd keyword (Ou and Lau) with the front-hand, and launch either a straight-punch or hook with the rear-hand, when the opportunity presents itself. However, it is difficult to execute these techniques with boxing gloves on.

A quick and stiff jab will work well against any fighter of any style you encounter. If you don't have a stiff jab, get one. It is not a difficult strike to develop, and not a difficult strike to use.

Using upward elbow strikes in the clinch is useful.

In the clinch, try to secure an arm-bar, wrist-lock, or other quick, uncomplicated arm-lock. It is difficult to get a Boxer in an arm-bar/wrist-lock because their hands move soo fast, but if you're able to secure one during a clinch, it can be a show-stopper. If he detects you attempting a lock, he will try to punch his way out of the clinch.

Slap-blocking combined with moving out of range works well defensively against a jab.

Learning how to slip and duck is indispensible when fighting with someone who is larger and/or stronger than you, and likes to strike. Then you don't have to deal with blocking the "hay-makers". Just evade them.

darksands
08-18-2003, 06:17 PM
Steal their peach :D

HappyNoodleBoy
08-19-2003, 02:35 PM
Just a few opinions on boxing....
It's emphasis on speed, evasion and economy of movement must place it among the fastest, most unpredictable and therefore most likely to be effective among the fighting arts, when employed by an expert with time to get his hands up. However, its basic artificiality, its limited range of responses, its almost total lack of anything that could be called a system, the fact that it relies for its successful operation upon skills that cannot really be taught to anybody who does not posses them naturally, and above all the fact that it can be used effectively only by the most athletic, all come close to disqualifying it as a fighting art at all. Its weaknesses arise from the fact of its being above all else a sport. Punching is spectacular. Blocking is not. More seriously still boxing, being a sport, is performed according to certain rules and subject to certain limitations. Boxing is thus based on the assumption that in any fight one will be wearing padded gloves: will be naked to the waist, and will not be allowed to deliver, and therefore not have to gaurd against, blows delivered below the waist, or delivered to any part of the body except with clenched fists. The effect of the glove is all-important here. The boxer is not in reality hitting with his knuckles at all. He is hitting with a blunt instrument. The effect of his blows will therefore depend not on focusing for penetration, but on the speed and weight he can put behind the wide surface of the glove which will be coming into contact with his opponents body. Hence, the boxer, unlike any other self-defence exponent, delivers his most effective blows with a rolling motion, punching with a horizontal fist across his body, following through like a tennis player or golfer. One might say his punches would be less effective without the gloves. What these fatcs do illustrate is that boxing has many very serious limitations as a form of self-defence. It is for example unique among self defence techniques in having no formal system of defence. The boxer relies for protection on his ability to duck or slip punches; to cushion them on his arms, the palms of his hands or relatively insesnitive parts of his body and above all to hit his opponent first.

mantisben
08-19-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by HappyNoodleBoy
...
However, its basic artificiality, its limited range of responses, its almost total lack of anything that could be called a system, the fact that it relies for its successful operation upon skills that cannot really be taught to anybody who does not posses them naturally, and above all the fact that it can be used effectively only by the most athletic, all come close to disqualifying it as a fighting art at all.
...

I respectfully disagree with the statement that boxing could be used by "only the most athletic", and "skills cannot be taught to anybody who does not possess them naturally". I know boxers that weren't "athletic" UNTIL they started boxing. Then, after training a while, they were faster, stronger, and had alot of energy. And definitely knew how to throw hands, and were comfortable throwing them. Boxing is very simple to learn. There aren't many techniques to become familiar with. It is the CONDITIONING (different types of Bag-work, Calistenics(?), and sparring) that make the boxer an effective fighter.


Its weaknesses arise from the fact of its being above all else a sport. Punching is spectacular. Blocking is not. More seriously still boxing, being a sport, is performed according to certain rules and subject to certain limitations. Boxing is thus based on the assumption that in any fight one will be wearing padded gloves: will be naked to the waist, and will not be allowed to deliver, and therefore not have to gaurd against, blows delivered below the waist, or delivered to any part of the body except with clenched fists.
Don't think that a boxer in a real fight can't hit below the waist, or strike with anything but a clenched fist. They can slap, pull hair, punch to the back of the neck, the groin, the throat, throw elbows, head-butts, gouge an eye, and pull hair. Shucks, you don't need formal fighting training to know how to pull hair.


The effect of the glove is all-important here. The boxer is not in reality hitting with his knuckles at all. He is hitting with a blunt instrument. The effect of his blows will therefore depend not on focusing for penetration, but on the speed and weight he can put behind the wide surface of the glove which will be coming into contact with his opponents body. Hence, the boxer, unlike any other self-defence exponent, delivers his most effective blows with a rolling motion, punching with a horizontal fist across his body, following through like a tennis player or golfer. One might say his punches would be less effective without the gloves.
Maybe Mike Tyson's punches aren't as effective without a glove as with a glove. Still, when he hit Mitch "Blood" Green in front of "Dapper Dan's" in Harlem, he shattered bones in that man's face. He did hurt his wrist though. But on TV when Mr. Green pulled of his shades, his face looked permanently deformed. Tyson only hit him once...

Tyson hit another guy this year in front of a Hotel, and that guy said he felt like he was hit with "a piece of steel". He couldn't feel the left-side of his face for more than 2 days, and had a constant headache. Tyson didn't hurt his wrist in this incident. He must've learned how to hit without his gloves on. I'm sure the transition from gloves "on" to gloves "off" wasn't difficult.

What these fatcs do illustrate is that boxing has many very serious limitations as a form of self-defence. It is for example unique among self defence techniques in having no formal system of defence. The boxer relies for protection on his ability to duck or slip punches; to cushion them on his arms, the palms of his hands or relatively insesnitive parts of his body and above all to hit his opponent first.
Ducking and slipping punches is an excellent way to avoid getting hit. When you duck and slip well, you can deal with VERY heavy strikes from fighters larger and stronger than you, because your arms/legs never come in contact with that of your opponent. Also, boxers don't ALWAYS cushion strikes on the palms of their hands. The boxers that I've sparred with often slap-block my strikes down, or to the side. Kind of like the Wing-Chun Pak-Sau (not exactly, though).

I will agree that Boxing has limitations in Self-Defense because they don't kick, sweep, grapple, or do Chin-Na. Still, I wouldn't call Boxing ineffective because it didn't include these techniques.

There are other systems that punch, kick, sweep, grapple, do Chin-Na and STILL have limitations. I wouldn't call these fighting art/systems ineffective, either.

In short, I wouldn't call a fighting art/system ineffective because it had limitations.

I may be giving a biased opinion here, but only because I've seen soo many fighters trained in boxing, kick butt. Most of them weren't even Professional boxers. But that is just me and my experiences.

Respectfully

MantisBen

HappyNoodleBoy
08-19-2003, 05:24 PM
I never once said boxing was ineffective. I actually stated the exact opposite.

mantisben
08-19-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by HappyNoodleBoy
I never once said boxing was ineffective. I actually stated the exact opposite.
My humblest apologies! After reading your post, it sounded to me as if you were going in that direction with posts like the following:

However, its basic artificiality, its limited range of responses, its almost total lack of anything that could be called a system, the fact that it relies for its successful operation upon skills that cannot really be taught to anybody who does not posses them naturally, and above all the fact that it can be used effectively only by the most athletic, all come close to disqualifying it as a fighting art at all.
I sincerely apologize. I'll even delete my post if you are offended by it.

Respectfully

MantisBen

dodger87
03-27-2004, 06:08 AM
The other day my friend brought two pairs of boxing gloves to school and we started boxing in the gym. And **** is it hard to box. I'm small guy compared to all my friends and I know i've got faster punches than my friends but when i put the gloves on my punches aren't so quick anymore.

Well we're probably gonna box again this monday so do you guys have any tips on how to win over a bigger guy in a boxing match?

David Jamieson
03-27-2004, 06:36 AM
boxing is a sport. there are height and weight ranges that you fall into.

generally, when boxing, you don't box someone that is grossly larger or heavier than yourself.

having said that, do your best if you're gonna play around.

cheers

Mr Punch
03-27-2004, 06:41 AM
Kick him in the nuts.

...

oops sorry, wrong thread! :D


You're just gonna have to get owned, but while you are doing so, learn to use your speed, slip his lead, keep the pressure on, trying not to eat too many jabs, and work his inside. I dunno if your usual style has short power, but anyway it's difficult to do with big-ass gloves on, so you could probably do with working combos on a heavy bag before then.

Hands up, chin tucked.

BTW, I'm not very good at boxing (but not a complete slouch either!!), just passing time on the board... so you may want to wait for somebody else's answer!!!:)

ShaolinTiger00
03-27-2004, 06:44 AM
[QUOTE]boxing is a sport. there are height and weight ranges that you fall into.

generally, when boxing, you don't box someone that is grossly larger or heavier than yourself.
QUOTE]

KL, you are my Scott Tenorman..

Excuse me now. I'm off to find a pony that will bite off your wiener.


dodger, fighting a bigger guy you need to move and evade on the outside of his range and blast him quickly on the inside and get back out. mobility is the friend of the small man in a boxing ring.

Shooter
03-27-2004, 06:57 AM
no-one said this would be easy...

David Jamieson
03-27-2004, 07:13 AM
oh sorry st00, maybe i should've said boxing is the ancient battlefield art designed to allow smaller opponents destroy larger heavier opponents of equal or greater skill.

peh!:rolleyes:

look, boxing with someone bigger and stronger than you is just gonna get you owned, period. so if you wanna get slapped around like a little biotch, by all means go ahead. :D

now, kungfu is different heh heh, cause there are a lot of dirty thiongs you can do.

but in boxing, you are gonna spend most of your time running away from teh big guy who is coming to smash you. go inside, and you're owned, come to mid range and you are owned, even if you take a suffering on the ropes and try to get some countering going on, you are owned.

go get your pony now st00, cause maybe you should take up horseback riding instead of giving sh.itty advice about boxing.

Ha!

Mr Punch
03-27-2004, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[QUOTE]dodger, fighting a bigger guy you need to move and evade on the outside of his range and blast him quickly on the inside and get back out. mobility is the friend of the small man in a boxing ring. Yeah, that's what I meant to say; getting back out again is useful. But like Shooter also says better than I can, if you can keep the pressure up you should be able to do some damage, and force them to readjust rather than having to risk backpedalling to get outside their range again. **** it, I know what I mean!:mad:


Excuse me now. I'm off to find a pony that will bite off your wiener.
That'll need to be a starving, very brave, excellent-sighted and highly disease-resistant pony then!:D

SevenStar
03-27-2004, 08:18 AM
A little kung fu guy would own a big boxer??

SevenStar
03-27-2004, 08:21 AM
good stuff by ST and shooter.

Dodger, are you smaller AND shorter? What's your range like?

ShaolinTiger00
03-27-2004, 09:10 AM
instead of giving sh.itty advice about boxing.

funny you mentioned that.

A guy came to me late Febuary and said he had commited to fighting a boxing match on St. Paddy's day vs. a larger and stronger opponent. He had no prior boxing experience and only some tkd experience many years ago.

myself and another trainer worked with him for 3 weeks of intense training in fact he almost couldn't fight because he had gotten a cold from the heavy training.

He won with a standing 8 count in the third round. His opponent has two black eyes and a nice cut.

my advice must not be too shi.tty..

IronFist
03-27-2004, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Shooter
Step on their lead foot with yours if you have to.

:eek:

:D

FatherDog
03-27-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
oh sorry st00, maybe i should've said boxing is the ancient battlefield art designed to allow smaller opponents destroy larger heavier opponents of equal or greater skill.

peh!:rolleyes:

look, boxing with someone bigger and stronger than you is just gonna get you owned, period. so if you wanna get slapped around like a little biotch, by all means go ahead. :D

now, kungfu is different heh heh, cause there are a lot of dirty thiongs you can do.

but in boxing, you are gonna spend most of your time running away from teh big guy who is coming to smash you. go inside, and you're owned, come to mid range and you are owned, even if you take a suffering on the ropes and try to get some countering going on, you are owned.

go get your pony now st00, cause maybe you should take up horseback riding instead of giving sh.itty advice about boxing.

Ha!

And, once again, Kung Lek demonstrates the depth of his ignorance about boxing.

Seriously, KL, if you don't know anything about a subject, shut the **** up. You're just making yourself look stupid.

CaptinPickAxe
03-27-2004, 03:04 PM
ST00 has a point. In boxing if your the guy with the shorter reach, then you need to get on the inside. The problem is getting in. You have to be quick and have a great bob and weave to get on the inside. Once on the inside, never underestimate the power of an uppercut. It can be your best friend or greatest enemy.

Unmatchable
03-27-2004, 03:30 PM
Seriously though Kung Lek is right. 9 out of 10 the bigger guy in boxing will win even if he has no experience just look at the technician Sapp and that's with kicks allowed. On the street size doesn't really matter though because it's a whole different ball game.

David Jamieson
03-27-2004, 03:52 PM
bite me father dog, I have forgotten more about boxing than you will ever know, so you can stfu on the subject.

and st00 you are so full fo sh.it your eyes are brown.

I have a juvenile boxing record from age 16 -19 can you make the same claim? do you have any record or rank at all?

you guys are such big talkers, but really you're just wankers, so bite me.

get in and out :rolleyes: give me a break, look, boxing is sportive. There are weight divisions for a reason. a larger, heavier opponent of equal or greater skill is gonna totally dominate someone with little or no skill.

so give me a break and don't give crappy advice. If you are gonna play around with your friends that's one thing, and all you can say is do the best you can and take it easy if you are grossly outweighed.

don't mess around with full power stuff if you are not correctly matched, anyone who knows anything knows that. so don't listen to these idiots. they are talking total trash.

DragonzRage
03-27-2004, 03:56 PM
"look, boxing with someone bigger and stronger than you is just gonna get you owned, period. so if you wanna get slapped around like a little biotch, by all means go ahead."

"On the street size doesn't really matter though because it's a whole different ball game."

-Oh ok...so lemme get this straight. Since boxing is a sport, a smaller but skilled boxer is always gonna get owned by a bigger opponent even if that opponent has no clue about boxing? And in a full contact match size beats everything just cuz its a sport with certain rules, yet in a streetfight the size issue magically disappears, eh?

Two of the stupidest things that have ever been written on this board. No offense, but these statements are completely ignorant.

David Jamieson
03-27-2004, 04:01 PM
dragonzrage-

if you are boxing an opponent who is larger than you and of equal or greater skill, you are done, that is all.

on the street...well whatever, I am pretty sure that most of the keyboard warriors in here have never taken any licks on the street the way they talk total garbage.

don't misquote me, been there and done and got the t-shirt:rolleyes:

honestly I have no idea where some of you guys are coming from at times.

Chang Style Novice
03-27-2004, 04:12 PM
Unmatchable and KL are both being ridiculous.

Unamatchable - size always matters. ALWAYS. It's not always the most important thing, but it can never be discounted.

KL - size is not ever the only thing that matters - larger and stronger opponents can be outsmarted, outlasted, outmaneuvered, outsped, or defeated by any number of other strategies.

Both of you, pull your heads out your asses.

edit - okay, crossposted with KL.

So, your claim is only regarding opponents of "equal or greater skill" now? That's not what you said before. Keep backpedaling, you'll get to correct eventually.

Unmatchable
03-27-2004, 04:29 PM
in a boxing match unlike a streetfight you can't hit the guy's nuts or throat which will often end the fight right there. Also you have gloves and sometimes on street one good lucky punch is enough for the guy to quit or a lucky chin ko and than stomps. Plus it's completly different, the adrenaline and the fact that in streetfights most including pro boxers rely on instinct and most of the stuff they do goes out the window. That's why it's a spot.

David Jamieson
03-27-2004, 04:37 PM
uh listen chang style, whenever you actually find the time to actually go out and actually box with someone, then please feel free to enter back into the debate.

you guys that haven't been in a real fight probably haven't got6 advice for this guy so i have no idea why you're trying to come across like you are skilled and experienced fighters.

You aren't, so don't make like you are. If you were, you would know better than to talk the shiot you are talking.

Big guy beats the crap out of small guy everytime in a square circle with gloves on, particularly if equally skilled.

Don't kid yourself with a bunch of movie time jet li fantasy crap.

The big Tiger crushes the small dog every time. In order for it to be the other way around then the small dog has to train his @ss off.

No backpedaling here , just saying and if you guys haven't done any knockig around then all you should be advising this guy to do is just have fun and be careful, don't go leading him to believe he can take on the world because that simply isn't true.

Frigging dreamers I tell ya! lol

bamboo_ leaf
03-27-2004, 04:39 PM
Boxing Trainers always take great care in setting up their boxers with other boxers. Makeing sure they are evenly matched.
All the factors mentioned come into play when faced with an oppenent in a ring. heart is not something that can be mesured but it also plays a big role.

In the street, ones MA/CMA/IMA is thought to be a major factor in minimizing the differences and increases ones chances of surviving the encounter. Even then if your skill is not quite up to the level, size, strength and speed will matter.

feet dont fail me now ;)

Chang Style Novice
03-27-2004, 04:58 PM
I may not be able to box, but I can read, dumb-ass.

You're backpedalling. You said one thing, then you said another.

Unmatchable
03-27-2004, 05:18 PM
you can beat a bigger guy if you are alot more skilled but if you only have a few months of boxing practise than...

Shooter
03-27-2004, 05:28 PM
wtf is the problem here?

dodger87 is sparring with his friends.

He's trying to participate and hasn't the physical means to get much out of it relative to the people he's training with.

The strategies and the drill I outlined will enable him to train with his friends and put him on a more equal footing, all things considered. Some of the advice people have given is sound, and has been proven effective for decades.

Our core group has always had the lighter, smaller guys sparring the big guys, and they've all done just fine. It's just training. dayum...

kung lek wrote:

...don't go leading him to believe he can take on the world because that simply isn't true

how the hell do you read that into what's being discussed here? :rolleyes:

ShaolinTiger00
03-27-2004, 10:49 PM
EDIT per Iron Fist

SanSoo Student
03-28-2004, 02:08 AM
"Also you have gloves and sometimes on street one good lucky punch is enough for the guy to quit or a lucky chin ko and than stomps"

This fact is somewhat true, if you do not have gloves in the street and do a full force punch to the chin, depending on the angle of your strike you could ending up breaking your fingers or knuckles, or fuk up your wrist because they are not taped. In the heat of a real fight, if the boxer did not practice natural wrist control, a typical punch with too much force and think that it will be ok because he was used to having wraps/padding.

As for dodger87, I suggest you get some everlast bag gloves: the ones that have adjustable weight in them, up to 2lbs, and do bag work with that.

dodger87
03-28-2004, 07:47 AM
Thanks for the tips, but as Kung Lek said its not as easy as you can say. The opponent doesn't exactly leave his body open for me to rush into punch. And going for his head is pretty hard because of my reach so I'd need to be pretty close to him for any kind of head shot even if i rushed in he could just push me back out easily with punches to my body.

dodger87
03-28-2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by SevenStar
good stuff by ST and shooter.

Dodger, are you smaller AND shorter? What's your range like?

I'm shorter and less built than these guys, and I'm 100% positive that my arm length would be shorter than these guys.

Shooter
03-28-2004, 09:03 AM
dodger87, it's probably best to forget about it then. If you're not willing to at least try the drill in good faith, then to hell with you. :D

SevenStar
03-28-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Unmatchable
in a boxing match unlike a streetfight you can't hit the guy's nuts or throat which will often end the fight right there.

hitting the throat is not as easy as most people like to think. The real world of resistance is different from the world of cooperation you see in your school.


Also you have gloves and sometimes on street one good lucky punch is enough for the guy to quit or a lucky chin ko and than stomps.

Did you catch Pride: Bushido 2 last week? mario sperry had a one punch KO. That can be done with or without gloves - it depends on where they are hit, and the impact your strike has.


Plus it's completly different, the adrenaline and the fact that in streetfights most including pro boxers rely on instinct and most of the stuff they do goes out the window. That's why it's a spot.

it's time like this where prove what an ignoramus you are...

1. Do you honestly think there's no adrenaline rush when you step into the ring?

2.On the insticnt thing, let me explain that to you...

When the heart rate jumps above a certain point, that mixed with adrenaline makes you forget everything THAT IS NOT INGRAINED as a reflex action. In other words, if you train to strike to the throat, but aren't constantly doing it when you spar, when you are in the street, chances are that you will not do it, because it's not ingrained in you. The boxer spends all of his time punching, moving, etc. What he uses in a fight will be the same as what he uses in the ring. Now, punches that he doesn't use regularly will not be used. Using myself as an example, I don't throw alot of hooks to the body. In a street fight, I would forget that I'd ever learned that technique, because I don't use it.

SevenStar
03-28-2004, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by dodger87
Thanks for the tips, but as Kung Lek said its not as easy as you can say. The opponent doesn't exactly leave his body open for me to rush into punch. And going for his head is pretty hard because of my reach so I'd need to be pretty close to him for any kind of head shot even if i rushed in he could just push me back out easily with punches to my body.

He's not supposed to just say "here, I'm open - hit me!"

You're fighting. you have to fight. work your slipping and your movement. you have to work to get yourself inside, just as you would have to in any MA. No it won't be easy. Watching the tyson / lennox fight will show you what can happen if you can't get inside.

SevenStar
03-28-2004, 10:48 AM
Oh yeah - the double jab is a beautiful thing...

Christopher M
03-28-2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by dodger87
The opponent doesn't exactly leave his body open for me to rush into punch.


Originally posted by SevenStar
work your slipping and your movement. you have to work to get yourself inside, just as you would have to in any MA.

As you cover or jam his punch, step to go with the force and also push it away/past you while you adjust your angle and position to "cross the T." Crossing the T refers to the relative angles of your hips: imagine two lines drawn straight forward from your hipbones - this describes a "spotlight" where you can output the most power. When you are squared off with someone, both of your spotlights are pointing straight at one another, making an "I" shape. You want to step so that you are no longer in his spotlight, but he is still in yours - making a "T" shape, at least a "y". This way you can hammer him hard and he can't attack or defend too well. You do this by both stepping offline and adjusting your angle by rotating your body (CW or CCW around your spine if you imagine staring down at the top of your head). These are both excellent things to do to avoid the force of a jammed punch, so you kill two birds with one stone on that one (plus, at this point you're adjusting position while he's commited to punching, so it's harder for him to follow you immediately to bring you back to the "I" formation like he wants). Now, as soon as your weight hits into the "T" position, fire off something at the side of his head or floating ribs. Go into a combo then, or more likely - repeat this until he's broken enough that you can segue into a combo.

Watch one of the lighter weight boxing matches and note how they're always adjusting their rear foot - this is what they're doing. If you're fighting out of a boxing frame, you can just emulate them exactly.

IronFist
03-28-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
My buddy Tommy who won his fight. (address removed) Forum member TrueWrestler knows him.

The other trainer Jeff Ruth (address removed), whom he worked with. Many forum members know Jeff as well.

Your friends are going to be p.issed that you posted their addresses here when the spam bots spider through these pages and pick up their addresses.

When posting email addresses on a forum, ESPECIALLY someone else's, you should do it like: emailaddress@NOSPAMhotmail.com or whatever, or email11111addresss@ho111111tmail.com and then tell the person to take out the "1's."

ShaolinTiger00
03-28-2004, 03:53 PM
Iron Fist, thanks for the heads up. *edited*

Unmatchable
03-28-2004, 03:55 PM
hitting the throat is not as easy as most people like to think. The real world of resistance is different from the world of cooperation you see in your school.
I'm talking about pre emptive strike.


Did you catch Pride: Bushido 2 last week? mario sperry had a one punch KO. That can be done with or without gloves - it depends on where they are hit, and the impact your strike has.
pride gloves are different than boxing gloves.


1. Do you honestly think there's no adrenaline rush when you step into the ring?
It's a different kind of adrenaline rush. On the street it happens fast out of nowhere unexpected and you don't have much time to think about your opponent. ANd most people don't fight in the ring they just spar and take notes from the people that do.

backbreaker
03-28-2004, 04:20 PM
I'd think there would be more adrenaline and nervousness before a ring fight. When you are on the street you may be more arrogant, and the fight may come all of a sudden, no time to get nervous. But Myself, I'd think if a boxer is say in a hotel hallway acting tough, posturing and stuff, that's not how he is before a fight

SevenStar
03-28-2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Unmatchable

pride gloves are different than boxing gloves.

chad dawson vs antonio baker. one punch KO - right hook.

sergio gomez vs damon murillo - right cross.

Yoshimitsu Yashiro vs Hitoshi Onishi

Tyson vs Botha was basically one punch - Tyson didn't land anything solid except for jabs until the fifth, when he caught botha with a hard right.

adrian stone vs farsi musiyiwa

johanna peña vs angela garcia - garcia was unconscious for 5 mins.


Didn't someone knock out lennox lewis with one punch?

Given the power of people like dempsey and marciano, I bet if we researched it, we'd see that they had some one-punch KOs


In some of these, it was past the first round, but the person was active and alert until they got caught with the one punch - still a one punch KO. that just happened to be when they caught the opponent with the right punch at the right time.

It's a different kind of adrenaline rush. On the street it happens fast out of nowhere unexpected and you don't have much time to think about your opponent.

physiologically, no, it's not different. Adrenaline rush is due to the body's response to sudden mental or physical stress. no matter the stimulus, the body's internal response is the same.

ANd most people don't fight in the ring they just spar and take notes from the people that do.

Same thing applies. He's throwing the same punches several hours a day, every day. when he's in the street, that's what he'll use, as that's what's ingrained in him.

Water Dragon
03-28-2004, 06:29 PM
my goodness is there some non sense posted on this thread. My MMA coach is about 135 lbs and regularly hands me my 185 lb @ss in Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ. (thank God for the clinch :p )

I would say that you should work your slips, bab and weave, cavers, parries, and blocks. Develop a solid defense first, then work on your offense.

Unmatchable
03-28-2004, 06:32 PM
Same thing applies. He's throwing the same punches several hours a day, every day. when he's in the street, that's what he'll use, as that's what's ingrained in him

It's not the same thing. Most sparring sessions aren't done at 100% and there is still a sense of security that at any time you can back out and stop the fight or there is a coach watching with medical aid. It's also in a controlled envioerment with shin pads, gloves sometimes headpiece. And you know who you are sparring agains, you know their capabilities it isn't some guy who you never met and know what they are capable off.

backbreaker
03-28-2004, 06:32 PM
Boxing seems like war; like you're gonna have to fight, no getting away. Is that correct?

Water Dragon
03-28-2004, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Unmatchable


It's not the same thing. Most sparring sessions aren't done at 100% and there is still a sense of security that at any time you can back out and stop the fight or there is a coach watching with medical aid. It's also in a controlled envioerment with shin pads, gloves sometimes headpiece. And you know who you are sparring agains, you know their capabilities it isn't some guy who you never met and know what they are capable off.

So what's your better training alternative?

backbreaker
03-28-2004, 06:46 PM
Wear headgear, I just saw this girl sparring with the top fighters of a Muay Thai gym, she was fine doing really good, and it seemed they were using more slips and bobbing and stuff off the jab

CHEUNG-WINGCHUN
03-28-2004, 07:56 PM
I think a smaller man can triumph over a larger man, and multiple oponents if he understands the vast science of fighting

I know I knocked out much bigger oponents than me with "Little Mac" when I played Mike Tysons Punch Out, on the nintendo.

Unmatchable
03-28-2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Water Dragon


So what's your better training alternative?

Tony Bauers Spear system. And use bjj against larger opponents taking them down. don't fight man to man standing with them.

Christopher M
03-28-2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Sevenstar
hitting the throat [or the boys] is not as easy as most people like to think.


Originally posted by Unmatchable
I'm talking about pre emptive strike.

FWIW, the only time I've ever been hit in the boys For Real (tm) all it did was made me get mad and clock the guy harder. I'm sure if the guy had trumped me in skill, he'd have been able to take advantage of the ensuing anger and haste - but then again, if he'd trumped me in skill, there wouldn't be the original problem for him to begin with. Hurt pretty bad afterwards though. I'm not sure that the throat would be any different.

So I'm not sure these are very useful alternatives. Better to work on superior balance, posture, and position while attacking the opponent's balance, posture, and position. These will give the small man what he needs better than anything else; and the big man too. While boxing is a limited context venue, it still has enough room to work on some aspects of this - an example of which I gave above.

Now, I'm sure if someone could reliably get off clean, powerful, skillfull blows to the throat and genitals - that would be nothing to scoff at. But how do you go about reliably pulling off clean, powerful, skillfull blows? By having superior position, posture, and balance. So, again, this seems like what our answer should be here.

SevenStar
03-28-2004, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Christopher M




FWIW, the only time I've ever been hit in the boys For Real (tm) all it did was made me get mad and clock the guy harder. I'm sure if the guy had trumped me in skill, he'd have been able to take advantage of the ensuing anger and haste - but then again, if he'd trumped me in skill, there wouldn't be the original problem for him to begin with. Hurt pretty bad afterwards though.

That's the same experience I've had - I didn't really feel it until afterward.

SevenStar
03-28-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Unmatchable


there is still a sense of security that at any time you can back out and stop the fight or there is a coach watching with medical aid.

Where I train, you're not backing out. One it's started, you're stuck. As for a coach with medical aid, you will have that in the ring also.

It's also in a controlled envioerment with shin pads, gloves sometimes headpiece.

You wear those in the ring also - shin pads are optional, however. I don't wear shin pads in practice. remember, the comparison we are making is between sparring and in the ring...

And you know who you are sparring agains, you know their capabilities it isn't some guy who you never met and know what they are capable off.

depends on the level you fight on, or how big the local scene is. If you have tapes of the guy, you can study him.

SevenStar
03-28-2004, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Unmatchable


Tony Bauers Spear system. And use bjj against larger opponents taking them down. don't fight man to man standing with them.

1. you apparently forgot what we were discussing originally - we are giving him tips for a boxing match. Neither bjj nor flinch reflex training will help him.

2. Taking someone down isn't always the best course of action. The situation will dictate all of that.

Kaitain(UK)
03-29-2004, 07:22 AM
a bigger and heavier opponent has a lot of advantages - of course he won't always win but he has natural physical advantages which affect his punching power and also his ability to receive power.

Anyway - tips on beating a bigger guy in a boxing environment from someone who has never boxed - I have traiined MT in the past though so this might help. I'm also 6'4 and 250 so I don't have much experience of fighting bigger people (thank the lord) - so take this as advice based on me having sparred with irritating smaller people who won't stand still and trade :D

As has been said - you've got to get inside his range which means slipping his jab and throwing your own. If you aren't picking up his jabs then you're going to have to work on movement and wait for him to get flat footed (say after he's thrown a punch, follow him back in behind it - you might get chinned of course if he's good at fighting off his back foot...). Circle away from his rear hand towards his jabbing hand - when he shifts position to adjust to your movement, move in and jab and then right hook to the body and then right hook to head. Remember to guard your head with your left whilst you're doing this or you'll eat a big one.

Overhands - with gloves it's bloody useful against a taller opponent. Some geezer in a mullet beat up that fat black sumo guy in one of the early UFC's using an overhand palm - I find it hard to defend against because it follows through and drags my guard down. It does leave you open to hooks though. I would try and throw a hook off afterwards as I'm skipping out.

Work _everything_ off of your jab - jab and cross, jab and jab, jab and hook, jab and overhand, jab and uppercut. If you're trying to get inside his range and you don't throw a jab on the way in, you're going to find it hard.

If he's significantly bigger than you then his punches are going to sap his energy quite a bit faster than your punches will drain your energy (given roughly equal cardio etc) - so you can probably increase your work rate and pressure him without tiring faster.

Likewise - if he's bigger then moving around is going to sap his energy faster, keep mobile and try and frustrate him a bit. Toe to toe is just going to result in you getting paggered.

Don't throw power punches out every single time - throwing at full power requires you to set yourself more and reduces your mobility (as well as being bloody knackering when you miss). If you don't clock him then you're going to be a lot easier to hit. Sometimes just pawing with the jab is enough to break his rhythm and work an entry. Throw power when the shot is available.

When you need to break out, try following a rule of 3 and out - jab, power shot, less powerful shot as you back away. If you try and throw more than 3 in a combination and they haven't landed, a good opponent will have picked your rhythm and angles up and will be preparing to land one right on the button. Certainly for me, if someone has thrown 3 and i've dodged/blocked those three, I am well set to strike if they push their luck.

If he's more experienced than you and you are just getting beaten up, maybe you could ask him to box southpaw. He'll improve from working switch, and you'll learn a little more (maybe). Ask him what drills you can work to improve your boxing - otherwise you're just applying your own art in an environment that means you can't use it effectively.

As for punching with gloves on - wear them a few times a week when you do bag work. Or go and buy some lighter gloves :)

Hope some of that helps

Paul

Ray Pina
03-29-2004, 11:07 AM
(coming in late and only read first post)

Just because you have boxing gloves on doesn't mean you have to "box". Use your jamming techniques. Get in, turn him if you can.

Don't think jab, jab, skip and move .... jab, jab, skip and move ... unless that's what you're working on. Think of a guy trying to hit you and what you have trained to make that not so.

Good luck. Enjoy. Maybe buy yourself some headgear.

SevenStar
03-29-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Kaitain(UK)
a bigger and heavier opponent has a lot of advantages - of course he won't always win but he has natural physical advantages which affect his punching power and also his ability to receive power.

Anyway - tips on beating a bigger guy in a boxing environment from someone who has never boxed - I have traiined MT in the past though so this might help. I'm also 6'4 and 250 so I don't have much experience of fighting bigger people (thank the lord) - so take this as advice based on me having sparred with irritating smaller people who won't stand still and trade :D

As has been said - you've got to get inside his range which means slipping his jab and throwing your own. If you aren't picking up his jabs then you're going to have to work on movement and wait for him to get flat footed (say after he's thrown a punch, follow him back in behind it - you might get chinned of course if he's good at fighting off his back foot...). Circle away from his rear hand towards his jabbing hand - when he shifts position to adjust to your movement, move in and jab and then right hook to the body and then right hook to head. Remember to guard your head with your left whilst you're doing this or you'll eat a big one.

Overhands - with gloves it's bloody useful against a taller opponent. Some geezer in a mullet beat up that fat black sumo guy in one of the early UFC's using an overhand palm - I find it hard to defend against because it follows through and drags my guard down. It does leave you open to hooks though. I would try and throw a hook off afterwards as I'm skipping out.

Work _everything_ off of your jab - jab and cross, jab and jab, jab and hook, jab and overhand, jab and uppercut. If you're trying to get inside his range and you don't throw a jab on the way in, you're going to find it hard.

If he's significantly bigger than you then his punches are going to sap his energy quite a bit faster than your punches will drain your energy (given roughly equal cardio etc) - so you can probably increase your work rate and pressure him without tiring faster.

Likewise - if he's bigger then moving around is going to sap his energy faster, keep mobile and try and frustrate him a bit. Toe to toe is just going to result in you getting paggered.

Don't throw power punches out every single time - throwing at full power requires you to set yourself more and reduces your mobility (as well as being bloody knackering when you miss). If you don't clock him then you're going to be a lot easier to hit. Sometimes just pawing with the jab is enough to break his rhythm and work an entry. Throw power when the shot is available.

When you need to break out, try following a rule of 3 and out - jab, power shot, less powerful shot as you back away. If you try and throw more than 3 in a combination and they haven't landed, a good opponent will have picked your rhythm and angles up and will be preparing to land one right on the button. Certainly for me, if someone has thrown 3 and i've dodged/blocked those three, I am well set to strike if they push their luck.

If he's more experienced than you and you are just getting beaten up, maybe you could ask him to box southpaw. He'll improve from working switch, and you'll learn a little more (maybe). Ask him what drills you can work to improve your boxing - otherwise you're just applying your own art in an environment that means you can't use it effectively.

As for punching with gloves on - wear them a few times a week when you do bag work. Or go and buy some lighter gloves :)

Hope some of that helps

Paul

good post.

Knifefighter
03-29-2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Water Dragon
my goodness is there some non sense posted on this thread. That's for sure.

Dogder:
It sounds like you are not more skilled than your friends and are also smaller. In this case, they will probably smack you around. You can beat them over time, but not by getting advice on the internet. Join a boxing gym and learn good fundamentals. In six months or so, you will be owning them if they don't have much boxing training.

Kung Lek:
You boxed? And you think size matters in the ring, but not in the street? Give me a break. Most boxers have also fought on the street. We know that size matters for both, but that tactics, skill and conditioning can beat size in both environments also. One really has to wonder if you have ever fought either in the street or in the ring.

sanjuro_ronin
11-04-2008, 06:17 AM
Enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmQ3PSl6qLU

sanjuro_ronin
11-04-2008, 06:20 AM
The Middleweights, past and present:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcMy0u7GC-g&feature=related

AdrianK
03-26-2009, 06:48 PM
Anyone have any examples of kung fu being applied with the padded gloves in any amateur or professional competitions? (Alan Orr's camp excluded, we already know they're pretty **** good fighters)


That being said, I'd like to get an idea of what some of the kung fu world thinks about boxing. In one of my old schools it was looked at as simply a way to apply jab, cross, hook, uppercut, combinations, slips and weaves. :rolleyes:

How would you, as a southern kung fu stylist, explain what boxing is?

David Jamieson
03-30-2009, 12:07 PM
Anyone have any examples of kung fu being applied with the padded gloves in any amateur or professional competitions? (Alan Orr's camp excluded, we already know they're pretty **** good fighters)


That being said, I'd like to get an idea of what some of the kung fu world thinks about boxing. In one of my old schools it was looked at as simply a way to apply jab, cross, hook, uppercut, combinations, slips and weaves. :rolleyes:

How would you, as a southern kung fu stylist, explain what boxing is?

why would a southern kungfu stylist explain what boxing is?

that would be like asking a boxer to explain what wrestling is?

southern kungfu practice is not limited to tactics in a ring.

it also in some styles contains qigongs, various device training methodologies and a variety of different ways of going about ones training from conditioning methods to actual technique development.

Having said that, I used to box and am ranked in amateur standings.

Boxing is stand up fighting, using only the fists, no striking below the belt or to the back, no kicking, no biting, no throwing, if you are clinched too long without any strikes being thrown you will be separated and you must begin again. You lose points for non aggressivness (not entering, not initiating attack). YOu can win by points or by knock out both for real and technically.

Primary strikes are jab, cross, hook and uppercut with range and level variations for each.

primary defense are covers, pats, pushes and chops and unconventional methods (whatever works for you so long as it doesn't break the rules)

boxing totally rolls into most striking martial arts including southern styles of chinese martial arts which all have jab, cross, hook and upper cut.

jab = short strike from the lead leg (yut gee choy, straight punch)
cross = strike across the body (ping choy, charp choy)
hook = hooking punch (sow choy)
uppercut = hooking punch from below (pao choy)

AdrianK
03-30-2009, 02:10 PM
why would a southern kungfu stylist explain what boxing is?

Because its a worldwide sport that has similar concepts and techniques in common. And SOME southern stylists compete actively in this sport and MMA. However, since boxing has extreme limitations on what you can do, it'd be great to hear how people deal with that.



that would be like asking a boxer to explain what wrestling is?

Or to ask them what they think about wrestling in general, absolutely. It'd be interesting to see what they thought of that too.



southern kungfu practice is not limited to tactics in a ring.

But this thread is limited to that.



it also in some styles contains qigongs, various device training methodologies and a variety of different ways of going about ones training from conditioning methods to actual technique development.

We know this :rolleyes:



Having said that, I used to box and am ranked in amateur standings.

Where are you ranked? :D


As for the rest of your post, thats all I wanted to hear :p

David Jamieson
03-31-2009, 03:42 AM
Because its a worldwide sport that has similar concepts and techniques in common. And SOME southern stylists compete actively in this sport and MMA. However, since boxing has extreme limitations on what you can do, it'd be great to hear how people deal with that.[quote]

It's not limited for it's venue. It's not trained as a self defense art. It's not approached from taht vector and it's not actually suitable in a great deal of scenarios. If it's all you got, then it's all you got.




[quote]Or to ask them what they think about wrestling in general, absolutely. It'd be interesting to see what they thought of that too. You did ask how someone would explain it to a southern stylist.




But this thread is limited to that.
Why?




We know this :rolleyes:
Why minimize it?





Where are you ranked? :D
Orioles C.C, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.



As for the rest of your post, thats all I wanted to hear :p
Why didn't you just ask about boxing then?

wetwonder
03-31-2009, 03:49 AM
I don't know all that much about Bruce Lee, but I've seen his interviews. He took a lot from boxing. Mainly, that the main idea is to avoid 100 punches, while looking to get in one good shot. Boxers use footwork, bob and weave, and you can see Bruce Lee do some of that in his style. I always that he was kind of cool for taking a intelligent look at boxing style.

David Jamieson
03-31-2009, 07:43 AM
There's also quite a lot of training that revolves around taking a strike and recovering,how to position yourself to do that and how to condition yourself to do that.

bobbing and weaving and footwork to avoid being struck is available in most martial arts.

wetwonder
03-31-2009, 09:50 AM
But in boxing, there is an overarching priority to not get hit. Every part of training has that as the emphasis. Move when your not punching, move while you are punching. It's referred to as parrying and is the most important element passed from trainer onto boxer. Punching takes a far second to evading. Remember Ali-Foreman, where Foreman threw hundreds of punches and Ali just kept evading. And then Ali took him apart with half a dozen shots. That's where boxing is unique, and I believe the part that Bruce Lee took from it.

David Jamieson
03-31-2009, 11:37 AM
But in boxing, there is an overarching priority to not get hit. Every part of training has that as the emphasis. Move when your not punching, move while you are punching. It's referred to as parrying and is the most important element passed from trainer onto boxer. Punching takes a far second to evading. Remember Ali-Foreman, where Foreman threw hundreds of punches and Ali just kept evading. And then Ali took him apart with half a dozen shots. That's where boxing is unique, and I believe the part that Bruce Lee took from it.

not at all. it's not about NOT getting hit at all. It's about getting as many strikes in on the legal targets as you can.

It's not about avoiding being hit, it's about how many times you can hit and and make it count.

conditioning is key. you gotta be able to eat it because you will eat it.

ali used to use a thing called rope-a-dope, whereby he'd relax on the ropes while you pounded away at him and got tired. Then he'd drop you.

too much mobility makes you tired. move if you have to, when you have to. don't waste your energy. yeah you want to duck and set up, but sometimes you're in like flynn and you gotta give and take.

Being able to "take it" is key to success in any martial art. any martial art that doesn't spend any time on you "taking it" is a waste of time in my opinion from a martial standpoint because it is setting you up for failure not to mention a very short sharp shock soon. lol :)

sanjuro_ronin
03-31-2009, 11:41 AM
Boxing does live up to the turisim of :
maximum efficincy and minimal effort.

Violent Designs
03-31-2009, 02:11 PM
Boxing does live up to the turisim of :
maximum efficincy and minimal effort.

I thought, that is what Wing Chun is suppose to be?

wetwonder
03-31-2009, 03:21 PM
not at all. it's not about NOT getting hit at all. It's about getting as many strikes in on the legal targets as you can.

It's not about avoiding being hit, it's about how many times you can hit and and make it count.

conditioning is key. you gotta be able to eat it because you will eat it.

ali used to use a thing called rope-a-dope, whereby he'd relax on the ropes while you pounded away at him and got tired. Then he'd drop you.

too much mobility makes you tired. move if you have to, when you have to. don't waste your energy. yeah you want to duck and set up, but sometimes you're in like flynn and you gotta give and take.

Being able to "take it" is key to success in any martial art. any martial art that doesn't spend any time on you "taking it" is a waste of time in my opinion from a martial standpoint because it is setting you up for failure not to mention a very short sharp shock soon. lol :)

Interesting, but your wrong. Bear in mind, DJ, that most of the time you are exactly right. But not this time. I know quite a bit about boxing, and can assure you that you are wrong.

sanjuro_ronin
04-01-2009, 07:06 AM
I thought, that is what Wing Chun is suppose to be?

:D
Indeed, indeed my friend.

lkfmdc
04-01-2009, 07:14 AM
But in boxing, there is an overarching priority to not get hit. Every part of training has that as the emphasis. Move when your not punching, move while you are punching. It's referred to as parrying and is the most important element passed from trainer onto boxer. Punching takes a far second to evading. Remember Ali-Foreman, where Foreman threw hundreds of punches and Ali just kept evading. And then Ali took him apart with half a dozen shots. That's where boxing is unique, and I believe the part that Bruce Lee took from it.

whgere oh where did you get this wonderful boxing wisdom :rolleyes:

sanjuro_ronin
04-01-2009, 07:19 AM
Having been coached in two continents, Europe and Canada, I cna say that, while NOT gettiung hit is always a good thing, every caoch I had alway said that you are GONNA get hit.
learn how to take it and make him pay for it, learn how to hit where he can get to you, learn how to move so that when he hits it doesn't hurt( as much), but all within the context of HITTING HIM more times ( Europe) or harder ( N.America).

lkfmdc
04-01-2009, 07:23 AM
That being said, I'd like to get an idea of what some of the kung fu world thinks about boxing.



the REAL Chinese martial arts people seemed to have embraced boxing (just one example) (http://www.jiangschool.com/Images/BOXER.jpg)

wetwonder
04-01-2009, 08:34 AM
whgere oh where did you get this wonderful boxing wisdom :rolleyes:

From learning. I'm not a boxer and didn't invent this. It's just what it is. There are countless sources on the principle. For example (quoted in many books on boxing):


"The number one rule of boxing is "Don't get hit!" It is only after a boxer has successfully mastered the "Don't get hit!" part that he can really worry about landing blows of his own."

- Tom Sulles, 2 time welter weight champion, coach of Notre Dame mens boxing for 30 years.

sanjuro_ronin
04-01-2009, 08:38 AM
From learning. I'm not a boxer and didn't invent this. It's just what it is. There are countless sources on the principle. For example (quoted in many books on boxing):


"The number one rule of boxing is "Don't get hit!" It is only after a boxer has successfully mastered the "Don't get hit!" part that he can really worry about landing blows of his own."

- Tom Sulles, 2 time welter weight champion, coach of Notre Dame mens boxing for 30 years.

Well, not to argue with Tom, but one of the best ways not to get hit is to hit the other guy !
The other guy can hit you if he is getting hit...
If only I can remember which trainer of champions said that one?
Anyways...
Cus D'Amato was found of saying that boxing was all about angles and footwork, to hit from where the other guy can't hit you.
Emmanuel Stewart would say stuff like, "work the jab and keep him on the defensive".
Dundee would often coach his fighters to, ah well...you get the picture.

lkfmdc
04-01-2009, 08:39 AM
From learning.



is that supposed to be English? :confused:




I'm not a boxer



that's very obvious from your posts




There are countless sources on the principle. For example (quoted in many books on boxing):




I really suggest you go out and actually DO some boxing, then you'll understand it better and not make such strange (and inaccurate) statements....

wetwonder
04-01-2009, 09:29 AM
is that supposed to be English? :confused:



that's very obvious from your posts



I really suggest you go out and actually DO some boxing, then you'll understand it better and not make such strange (and inaccurate) statements....


You seem to go derrogatory and on the attack when someone disagrees with you. If I'm hurting your feelings when I express a different opinion, than I'll try and not respond to your posts.

Try and take a lead from S. Ronin. He remains composed when someone offers a viewpoint different from his own.

m1k3
04-01-2009, 10:06 AM
wetwonder, as long as we are throwing quotes around. Sugar Ray Lenard, once of the best defensive boxers ever is quoted as saying "All boxers get hit, good boxer don't get hit as often".

You can't box and not get hit. Its like trying to swim without getting wet. :D

wetwonder
04-01-2009, 10:19 AM
I agree. That quote is not contrary. I never said not to expect to be hit.

The strategy I'm explaining is - to purpose every movement on not getting hit. IMO boxing is the art of landing a punch while not getting hit.

Watch a fight and break down what the good boxer does. Watch Joe Frazier. He is constantly moving forward, side to side and back. Constantly dodging his head left and right, up and down. He bobs his head almost everytime he throws a punch. Except for the exceptional huge hitters, like Marciano and Foreman and Tyson, all the good boxers prevail by not having their head where the oponents punch lands. The better you are at this, the less you'll get hit, and usually, the better fighter you'll be.

I attend most of the club and small arena fights here in Philly. It's pretty easy to see how good a boxer is in the first minute of the fight. If he doesn't make it priority "1" to keep his head out of the airspace where the other fighter is throwing, he is 19 times out of 20 going to lose.

I think it's hard to argue with this, but feel free.

lkfmdc
04-01-2009, 10:25 AM
You seem to go derrogatory and on the attack when someone disagrees with you. If I'm hurting your feelings when I express a different opinion, than I'll try and not respond to your posts.



LMFAO, I'm not the one getting butthurt here :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but as someone with vastly more experience than you, I am just pointing out you are wrong. If you don't want to be told you are wrong, blog or do something else, this is a two way conversation here

"from learning" means what exactly? Well, apparently, from reading some books as opposed to actually training boxing. Sanjuro and I (and others here) have actually trained boxing. BIG DIFFERENCE

Some of us here also have close to three decades of CMA background. If that makes you uncomfortable, so be it

m1k3
04-01-2009, 10:30 AM
We are almost in agreement.

You said "IMO boxing is the art of landing a punch while not getting hit" while I see it as landing a punch while getting hit as little as possible.

Its a small difference in style but a big difference in attitude. Boxers who worry too much about getting hit seldom generate very much offensive and god forbid if you ever pair two of them against each other, that fight will be long, slow and boring.

Having too much defense can be as bad as having too little defense.

sanjuro_ronin
04-01-2009, 11:47 AM
The strategy I'm explaining is - to purpose every movement on not getting hit. IMO boxing is the art of landing a punch while not getting hit.


I don't agree, the purpose of boxing is to hit ( #1 Priority) without getting hit.
All of boxing's foot work is base don that, that is why there are so very few blocks in boxing, but the majority is evasions and parries to get you into counter postitions or stop-hits and simutaneous counters.

wetwonder
04-01-2009, 11:53 AM
Like M1k3 said, I dont' think we are that far separated in opinion. It's good to get viewpoints from folks that have been in the ring.

sanjuro_ronin
04-01-2009, 12:01 PM
Like M1k3 said, I dont' think we are that far separated in opinion. It's good to get viewpoints from folks that have been in the ring.

AH bro, we are just discussing opinions, fact is, the priority of defense over offense or vice-versa, depends on the fighter and what they are best at.

lkfmdc
04-01-2009, 12:07 PM
enter an amateur (USA BOXING) event, avoid/block/slip 95% of the shots and don't throw any shots and see what happens (hint: you will NOT win)

sanjuro_ronin
04-01-2009, 12:09 PM
enter an amateur (USA BOXING) event, avoid/block/slip 95% of the shots and don't throw any shots and see what happens (hint: you will NOT win)

I hazard to say this but, in amateur boxing defense is almost irrelevant.

lkfmdc
04-01-2009, 12:32 PM
I hazard to say this but, in amateur boxing defense is almost irrelevant.

dare to say it! hazard to say it! SAY IT :mad:

where I am, it's about how many times you can touch the guy, literally, anything at all is scored, oh, except body shots :rolleyes:

Pork Chop
04-01-2009, 12:47 PM
enter an amateur (USA BOXING) event, avoid/block/slip 95% of the shots and don't throw any shots and see what happens (hint: you will NOT win)

I happen to like Willie Pep, Pernell Whitaker, and Benny Leonard. :p

sanjuro_ronin
04-01-2009, 12:50 PM
dare to say it! hazard to say it! SAY IT :mad:

where I am, it's about how many times you can touch the guy, literally, anything at all is scored, oh, except body shots :rolleyes:

LMAO !
Too true, all too true.