Whats up with this liniment?

[AllSkillsMine]

Hello everyone, I thought I'd start this thread to ask if anyone has experience using this liniment in any one of its versions. If you do, PLEASE, tell us/me how it is traditionally used, or what its uses are. There are at least 2 versions of this 'iron palm' or 'iron hand' liniment out there, maybe three. Here are the 2 similar versions I've found on the net.

"The Conventional Chinese Medical Prescription of the Shaolin Monastary for Iron Sand Palm

*Zi Wan (Aster tataricua L.) 30g
Lang Du (Autumn lucoctonum L.) 30g
*Ban Xia (Pinellia tuberifera Ten) 30g
*Long Gu (Fossil of Dinosaur bone) 30g
*Hua Jiao (Zanthoxylum bungeanum) 30g
Tang Gu Xiao 大花老鴉嘴(Thunbergia grandiflora Roxb.) aka Bengal trumpet, blue trumpet-30g
Hai Shi (Pumic) 30g
Di Ding (Chinensis G. Dom.) 30g
She Chuang Zi (Selinum japonicum Miq.) 30g
Shan Xiao Ding (Corrusive iron-pin) 100g
*Nan Sing (Arisaema amurense Maxim) 30g
*He Tsu (Black Vinegar) 5000g
*San Yim (Salt) 30g
*Di Gu Pi (Lycinm Chinense Mill) 30g
*Chuan Wu (Aconitum carmichaeli) 30g
*Chao Wu (Aconitum Kusnezoffii) 30g
*Lau Wong (Brimstone) 30g
*Bai Bu (Stemona japonica) 30g
*Li Lo (Verairum Nigrum L.) 30g

¥ For external use only.
¥ Before using, boil for 15 minutes. Allow mixture to warm, then put hands inside until the mixture becomes cold. Do not wash hands for an hour."

Here is a nearly identical version that is available as a premade product. The ingredients above I have added an (*) in front of are common to both. I copied these (2) listings from public forums, and added a note or two. As for the one below- It seems to be a modified, (watered down?) version of the above.

Ingredients:
Vinegar,
Water,
Salt,
Pinellia,
Arisaema,
Stemona,
Zanthoxylum,
Euphoria Longan,
Os Draconis,
Gentiana Scabra,
Aster Tataricus,
Veratrum Nigrum,
Aconitum,
Lycium Chinense,
Sulphur,
Cinnamomum Camphora,
Aconite Carmichaeli,
Periostracum Serpentis.

Ok, so, the 2nd liniment had a description with it. Elsewhere, on ANOTHER website, the SAME description is found for yet another premade liniment by a different name. It is toted as the last formula to use in a rather long sequence of iron fingers/iron grip training.

I have read that it is able to condition the hands by its application alone. I have read that it is good for relaxing spasms/soothing sinews due to the vinegar. I have read that it makes the hands brittle, and even makes them break easily with overuse. I've read its a 'tempering' formula. I have also read that it should never be used for Iron Palm training, bacause it will weaken the hands.

I am hoping that one of you (Dale?) with more knowledge about herbs than I have, and more experince in CMA, will have something valuable to offer in terms of what this liniment is supposed to be used for. Feel free to PM me if you dont want to answer publicly. I just woul really like to know what this liniment is intended for. For example--Isometric tension excercises of the hands/fingers? Striking (Iron Skills)? As an aid to some Qi Gong? finger tip pushups, Grip excercises, flipping people off, picking the nose????? I do not intend to brew up a batch or anything, I just want to know. Im kind of an Iron Skills fanatic. Thanks for reading!

[TenTigers]

going back around twenty years now...but I made and used the first one. Aparrantly, I used it way too much..three times a day, heated it up and soaked my hands. In the span of one year, I broke my fingers 3-4 times. My Sifu scolded me for misusing the jow, as it was meant for "tempering" only after the hands were more conditioned, and in limited use. It made my bones brittle. I haven't had problems since, but I've also been more careful in my sparring, and of course, since I'm 51, I don't go as hard and as reckless as I used to as well.
I would also like to hear from other IP practitioners

[AllSkillsMine]

Sir-I assume from your post that you got the formula from your sifu? I see that he scolded you for misusing it-so, I assume he must have explained its use--was it to be used 1X daily? Every other day? Weekly? Also, did you just soak your hands, or did you do striking with the liniment as well? Is it just meant to be used by soaking alone? That description I mentioned said it is used for 'striking practice', but that could mean striking the air. Did it produce a change (besides brittleness) in your hands? Anything you noticed about it?

Thank you very much for your reply.

[AllSkillsMine]

Oh yeah, and if anyone wants to chime in with some examples of finger training/strengthening, feel free!

[TenTigers]

actually, being young and stupid, I didn't wait for his instructions. I made the jow and started using it in my regular IP training. In fact, I started trying it out before it was ready, and the caustic properties of the vinegar made my hands peel like a bad sunburn.
The other negative side effect was that I started sweating vinegar. I smelled like a freakin salad! It also left stains on my white shirts and sheets, from my sweat.

[AllSkillsMine]

TenTigers-would you mind telling us/me what type of kung fu it was that you were studying which used the vinegar jow? Smelling like a salad, thats too bad. I've tried a smelly jow or two in the past. Everytime my wife makes a funny face at the smell of my jow, I think to myself about those myths that Iron Palm makes you unable to have children. Its kind of funny-a tiny grain of truth in there, I sometimes think.

[herb ox]

Yeah, watch out for the vinegar - at least make sure its the black not white. Vinegar can dissolve the calcium of the bones and make them soft, so long term use is generally not advised. Ever soak an egg in vinegar? Try it sometime. That's what can happen to your bones long term. Also there's some pretty hot and toxic herbs in that formula, use with caution. If you don't have a solid background in iron palm training or herbology, find a good Sifu to help you.

The question I have for you (ASM) is you note the liniment can toughen the hands simply by application - have you ever practiced iron skills before? Be advised there ARE NO SHORTCUTS TO IRON SKILLS. Start simple and work hard, daily. You don't need a fancy formula with tiger bone, etc. to get started toughening your hands. Do it slowly and constantly - that's the secret...

I'm sure Brother Dale would agree ;)

peace

herb ox

[AllSkillsMine]

Herb Ox--thank you for the reply. Yes, I have learned/trained Iron Palm before. In fact, Sifu Dale Dugas is one of the people who taught me. I started this thread because I am perplexed by this liniment. What is it for? How is it to be used? I have a feeling that even though the first description says its for 'iron sand palm', that this is misleading. There are 2 websites selling what I think to be a slightly modified version of this liniment. Actually, one, (Ill call it 'OHC) doesnt sell it anymore, but bottles of it can still be bought which were made by said company and apparently stockpiled by other companies. The other website, which sells quite a few premade bottles of jow (no herb packs) lists it as being the final liniment to use in for iron fingers/iron grip training.

What I have been trying to figure out is this-how the heck is it supposed to be used? What is its purpose? If it is a Shaolin formula, what is it used for? I tend to think that the Shaolin would not use a vinegar based liniment for actual iron palm training that involved striking due to weakening bones. The vinegar thing has really got me perplexed!

Basically, I am just hoping that someone will have an idea how this formula is used. (and what it does, if different from typical liniments) Can I post links to other websites here, and copy and paste descriptions? I havent yet, as I don't want to get banned. Thanks again.

[AllSkillsMine]

Also, to clarify, I have not been trained in TCM or herbology, though I am working on learning it. The two websites sell their formulas under different names, but with a pretty much identical description. Neither says how to use it. I have never used it, just read other peoples posts about similar formulas, and read other peoples comments. I domnt want brittle bones, and wouldnt use such a formula. But as I love IP, I am always curious to see how other people do it. I tend to think that this formula may be used for some excercise other than striking (maybe tension sets, or gripping/pinching/squeezing) , and I also tend to wonder of it is only meant to be used a few days a week--say, one time per day, 3 days per week. I read somewhere that it was to be used occaisionally to sort of temper the hands, and I would be willing to try that-using it very seldomly. But Im not the type to recklessly jump into something blindly, so I am just trying to get the inside scoop. Thanks again!

[TenTigers]

"The other website, which sells quite a few premade bottles of jow (no herb packs) lists it as being the final liniment to use in for iron fingers/iron grip training. "
There is your answer.Like I said, it is a "tempering" jow, only used at the final stages of your training, and in small quantities. In reality, it is not neccesary, and can cause damage if not used correctly. No jow will strengthen you r hands without the proper exercises. Different formulas can heal injuries, nourish the bone and tendon, and their related organs, but the strength of the bone comes from stimulation, the strength of the muscles comes from exercise, and the strength of the power generation comes with practice.
All of this is useless without the knowledge of how to use it. That is technique that comes only from proper training, under the guidance of a qualified Sifu.
(Not books, videos, dvd's, or youtube.)
It is like buying an expensive tool, and not being a skilled carpenter.
http://www.hammersource.com/Framing_Hammer_Titanium.html
There are no shortcuts, there are no substitutes for direct, hands on transmission from Sifu to student.

[AllSkillsMine]

TenTigers--Thank you again for your reply. I am in school (College) for one more year. After that time, I will have a career lined out (finally!) which will allow me more disposable income, and more days off per week, thus more time to train. I will at that time be visiting a few friends across the country to train, learn, and share knowledge. I also plan on seeking out several notable Masters of CMA and learning more advanced, in depth iron skills. Im the mean time, I train when I can, and try to improve my IP abilities. I have a goal I want to reach with breaking by the end of the summer, before classes resume. I don't really even have the time to do much more iron training without sacrificing elsewhere (forms, excercise, ..oh yeah--time with the wife!, etc..) I dont have the time right now to really begin any iron finger training on a serious level, and it would detract from my short term goals anyway. However, once I graduate, I intend on, among other things, doing more finger training. I will do so under the guidance of an experienced sifu-if I can find one who will teach me. The thing is, Im just curious about what else is out there in terms of iron training and iron skills.

My curiosity about this liniment is just that--curiosity. I know better than to dive headlong into something I don't understand. I do occasionally dabble with other liniments and training. I may buy a bottle of that formula and play around with it. But its like you said, I don't even know how to use it. To use your metaphore, it is a tool I don't know how to use. But just as a planer isn't used to drive nails, and a hammer isn't for cutting wood, I am hoping someone will tell me how this liniment is used, so I can, metaphorically, drive a nail or two.

I wouldn't have even posted on this forum about it were it not for the fact that it is available for purchase by the public. The websites sell the liniments, yet don't explain their use--so, I was/am hoping that someone will tell me the traditional use for two reasons--

1-Im just curious about other training methods (besides hitting a bag)
2-to see if its something I would even be interested in (in terms of training & results) before I go seek out a teacher and spend money on it.

Thats all. I appreciate your continued input.

With respect---

Thanks.

[AllSkillsMine]

TenTigers--

I re- read your last post, and I think I get it now. Although I haven't done a lot of finger strengthening, I have trained IP for about 6 years, always doing some finger strikes in my training. Hmm..more questions.....

[TenTigers]

could you PM me the link? I am also curious.
Oh, one thing-I noticed yuo mentioned you are married. If you plan to have kids, you will need to go off the jows for some time to get it completely out of your system, as many of the herbs that break up blood stasis, could also lead to miscarrige/abortion. The egg is held in the uterus by coagulated blood, which would be dissolved by the jow.
-and no, it is not suitable substitute for the morning after pill!:eek:
"C'mere, honey, lemmie just rub this on your belly...)

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you believe that you are at the stage in your MA development that Iron skills are for you - You have a very solid core foundation and your physical attributes are well developed:
Speed, power, muscular endurance, cardio vascular endurance.
In that case, get in touch with Dale Dugas and all will be made clear.
:D

[AllSkillsMine]

TenTigers--If I don't touch my wife with jow on my hands (And believe me, I dont. She doesnt like jow!), wouldn't it be okay for me to keep using it?

[TenTigers]

NO!! The jow enters your body through the skin, pores, capilary action and is absorbed into your system, which is why you sweat it.It is in your saliva as well. It is in your seminal fluid, and is absorbed into the woman's body as well.
If it only stayed on the surface of your skin, how would it possibly work?

[herb ox]

so I've been looking at this formula for awhile... overall, it's pretty hot given the chuan jiao, cao wu, chuan wu, and ban xia, but is balanced by the cold/cool substances. It has blood moving herbs as expected as well as substances to help heal bone fractures (the iron, long gu). Several herbs are for treating fungal/parasite infections (i.e. sulfur, she chuan zi, li lu, bai bu), but are also known to help heal the skin AND they go to the kidney which would further reinforce the bone. The pumice and pinellia and salt (which also goes to the kidneys) help to dissolve nodules likely incurred during training.

My theory is that vinegar and salt make a solution that dissolves the iron and calcium (dragon bone) better than alcohol, thus making a more potent solution that actually hardens the bones of the hands. Oh yeah, and vinegar helps dissolve nodules...

interesting formula... makes sense to me as a formula for advanced training.

cheers

herb ox

[AllSkillsMine]

Herb Ox--

Thanks for the reply. Very informative. All things aside, does the fact that it uses vinegar as the solvent fit with what most other people have said--that it is should be used very sparingly?

I know that acetic acid is a chelator of calcium, and many people have said here-and elsewhere-that will make the bones brittle if over used.

Of course, I don't know where to get black vinegar, (is it balsamic?) but it may have other stuff in it which mitigates the acetic acid.

After reading your last post, it sounds like it would do the opposite(?).

You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about herbs. Is there anything about the formula that would explain its (apparent) use for iron fingers/grip training?

Also, you said it makes sense as an advanced formula. How do you think it would compare to, for example, Ku Yu Cheung's IP (pick any version, lol) -with all of the animal ingredients except tiger bone and pangolin scales.

I think the pin yin may be a bit off--I cant find the di ding (chicken gizzard?)or the tang gu xiao in any books or data bases.
Is the shan xiao ding the same thing as sheng tie luo?

Thanks again, hoping for more of your herbal expertise.

[TenTigers]

Black Vinegar is Hohk Cho, found in Chinese supermarkets.
If you stew pig's knuckles in Hohk Cho with ginger, it is good to nourish and rebuild the body after childbirth.
It's also delicious!

[AllSkillsMine]

Thanks TenTigers, I might try that. Reminds me of 'Bizarre Foods' .
If it looks good, eat it!

[Dale Dugas]

The formulas being talked about are a little more harsh than most out there.

Being that someone slapped the Shaolin label on them means nothing.

To give credence to many formula, people add the words Old or 100 year old, etc to make them appear they have been used for generations rather than state the truth that someone came up with the formula yesterday.

I have something similar in a soak that is used in high level IP training. But I dont like to add much vinegar at all.

I would Rather use white wine as the base and then add a cup or two of black vinegar or high proof booze.

This would be used to treat the hands before hitting the bags, then after you are finished you would use a regular Iron Palm training Dit Da Jow.

Choy Lei Fut uses more of the pre soak and post Dit Da Jow manner of training than most styles.

As Herb Ox mentioned. This formula has some serious poisons in it, and its very very hot.

This could lead to giving the person using it more heat in their system if they did not know how to get rid of it.

I would much rather use softer more subtle formulas than ones that were mentioned earlier. All roads can lead to the same destination but some of the roads are just too harsh on me.

[Dale Dugas]

The hot formulas mentioned are not at all like the Ku Yu Cheong formulas you see out there. They have more kill pain and warm and move blood herbs.

This to me would be a formula that would be more for external iron palm versus internal iron palm.

Great for karate people that bang their hands to death.

But for people looking for internal IP, the hot formulas are way over the top.

Hence my beginning IP medicine is very strong, and the advanced formulas are more subtle.

You could use any decent IP medicine to train your fingers as they are attached to your hands.

Heat the medicine up and soak your hands/fingers. Then you can use a bucket of soybeans to stick your hands into and perform all manner of flapping exercises to strengthen the extensor and flexor muscles of the lower arm.

The first leve of Iron Finger/Iron Claw training is to train the muscles of the arm. Then after a year or more of that training you progress to steel shot. That will then train the piercing and power methods.

Hope this helps.

[AllSkillsMine]

Brother Dale--thanks for your contribution.

It seems highly illogical to me to use only vinegar as the base for a liniment. Not to mention highly smelly. Your mention of formulas having names tagged onto them to make them seem more credible, or enticing makes me wonder if one of the descriptions of this formula is true;

"This strong Shaolin formula is originally from Ta Mo’s “Sinew Change Classic”

I didn't think Ta Mo did much with herbs, let alone conditioning methods.

Oh well. Makes for good reading.

[AllSkillsMine]

Either way, I only have this to add as far as body absorption goes--

I once read that when the liver isn't functioning at its best, the prostate is one place in men that toxins get stores. As well as fatty tissue.

There are a lot of hormone type compounds in many herbs.

I dont know if I believe either way that the jow I use could make its way to my semen-unless through my high level hairy palm skills!!

But, I do believe it could affect a woman internally in some way if she applied dit da jow to her hands. But I really dont know.

[TenTigers]

your skin absorbs the jow into the body. How else would you suppose that it heals a bruise, or strengthens your bone and tissue? If it was only on the surface, it would be totally useless for any type of conditioning, or healing.
Once in is absorbed into the skin, it is broken down and absorbed into the entire system. Like I said, if you soak your hands in it and it comes out through your pores in your sweat, then why would you think it does not make it into your seminal fluid?

[TenTigers]

hmmm, so much for my Chang Seng-Feng Tai-Chi Iron Body Jow Formula....

[AllSkillsMine]

I don't have a strong opinion either way about the issue of jow/pregnency. I just dont know enough. So, Im not claiming, or discrediting it either way.

On a different note, has anyone tried going through the progression of liniments in Jerry Alan Johnson's book, "The Essence of Internal Martial Arts"? I think there are several, including a version of Ku Yu Cheungs IP.

To anybody who has read the second volume, how useful is the information on 'vibration' in it?

[Dale Dugas]

Shifu Johnsons Ku Yu Cheong is the run of the mill version that is around.

I have one that is a little more powerful and has somethings in it that are absent from his.

Be leery of vibrational training without someone who has done extensive work on it and can personally guide you.

[AllSkillsMine]

I was thinking about buying it, for lack of a teacher on vibrational training where I live-as far as I know. But the book is kind of expensive, and it sounds like I'm better off waiting until I can get personal instruction on the subject. Better safe than messed up or otherwise!

[herb ox]

I trained very briefly under Sifu Johnson...

I'd say his 'vibrational' skills run pretty deep. His books are good introductions to cultivating those skills. His Medical Qigong series books are used as textbooks at acupuncture schools.

Can't judge a brother by his jow alone...

peace

herb ox