View Full Version : Could anyone have beaten Bruce Lee?
Keefer
05-28-2009, 05:52 PM
Bruce Lee is associated with being a great influence in making Wing Chun popular, but does that make him the best at it? Were there practioners of Wing Chun of Bruce Lee's time that were worthy of being as big of a celebrity as Bruce Lee that just didn't get that break for one reason or another?
Vajramusti
05-28-2009, 06:06 PM
Is this an important question? Why?
Joy Chaudhuri
Were there practioners of Wing Chun of Bruce Lee's time that were worthy of being as big of a celebrity as Bruce Lee that just didn't get that break for one reason or another?
Nope, none of them were as worthy of being a big celebrity as Bruce because apparently none of them could act.
BTW, acting is the reason Bruce is famous.
TenTigers
05-29-2009, 07:50 AM
Batman could've beaten Bruce Lee.
(but Kato would've demolished Robin)
lkfmdc
05-29-2009, 08:04 AM
welcome to the forum!
so sorry to see you leave so soon.....
the door is that way --------------->
lmao yes bruce used smoke and mirrors to make him look like he knew martial arts
of course some master could have bet him theres always somebody better than you
presonally id like to have seen him go knuckles with the late great mas oyama
Phil Redmond
05-29-2009, 11:38 PM
I agree with Joy but I'll take the bait anyway.
Below is a link to an article written by WSL. There is a passage where BL asks WSL if he'd be able to beat him or Chang. It's common knowledge among older HK police officers that Chang's father one of the highest rank a Chinese police officer could attain under the British rule. Chang is Mandarin for Cheung, (Cheung Cheuk Hing). So at least WSL thought there was someone BL couldn't beat at that time.
http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/wslbl.htm
anerlich
05-30-2009, 12:47 AM
I beat his ghost as rock paper scissors in a dream once.
HumbleWCGuy
05-30-2009, 08:30 AM
welcome to the forum!
so sorry to see you leave so soon.....
the door is that way --------------->
STOP IT! You are killing me!
Keefer
05-30-2009, 04:51 PM
Is this an important question? Why?
Joy Chaudhuri
It's only as important a question as one will allow it to be. There are people who were around at the time BL was and they may have interesting stories to tell. Then again, maybe no one has any stories to tell at all. Who knows what others have to say about it until the question is put before them?
I was hoping to learn of some unsung WC hero that could have made or broke BL. Or learn about a WC master that everyone knows of but me.... It's hard to think that BL immigrated during the 60's and became an international star without community support. (My understanding is that the Chinese community wasn't behind BL putting martial arts on the big screen) (Even Ali had the Muslim community behind him in the 60's. It may not have been much at that time, but seems like BL was on his own during that period but still succeeded) Did BL really blend all of his talents, interest, and abilities that well so that he did not need to stand on any-one's shoulders at any point in order to gain stardom?
If his role and influence in the WC world is insignificant, I have to wonder how he was able to become so successful. Did he really make all of his own rain like that and roar his own thunder too? No help from any-one? No challeges from other would be martial arts stars? Things that make me go hummmmm...
If BL is not a major player, which martial arts star pound for pound has a better movie catelog than him? Is it Sonny Chiba? Is it Jet Li? Who has been a bigger influence on the masses gaining an interest in martial arts than BL? Is it Sonny Chiba? Is it Jet Li?
Ok. I hope that didn't all come out the wrong way, but I do wonder... Inquiring minds like to know...
Mr Punch
05-30-2009, 05:17 PM
I'm going to be nice here, cos everyone else is gonna tell you to **** off in one way or another. Look up Hawkins Cheung's essay on training with Bruce. WSL had some interesting things to say about it too. It's all documented as much as it's ever going to be, and asking on a contemporary technical martial arts board is a waste of time.
People round here seem to have enough trouble finding a chunner who everyone can agree can fight in 2009, let alone nearly 40 years ago! :D
AdrianK
05-30-2009, 10:23 PM
It's only as important a question as one will allow it to be.
No, your question has the same level of importance as a discussion about whether batman would beat superman, or whether star trek ships would beat star wars ships.
Its a worthless question because never has there been in the history of competition, a fighter who is unbeatable. In each generation there are great fighters, some retire undefeated, but no one can ever retire knowing everything they ever need to know. As a human being we all have weaknesses, including bruce. In fact, being a top-notch fighter is actually a very short window you have, and once you exceed that age, you're done, no matter who you are, and no matter what you know.
How good bruce was is debatable and the discussion of such is pointless because he is long, long dead and for every person who said he was great and knew him, there are people who said he sucked. Funny how the difference is that anyone who says he sucked wasn't really close to him, though :D
So what you can take from him is whether you respect his ideas or not. His fighting ability had nothing to do with his understanding of fighting, by the way. Plenty of incredible coaches are bad in the doing of the sport, but are second to none in how well they understand and teach it.
Achilles1987
05-31-2009, 02:55 AM
Clearly Sifu Emin Boztepe is much better than Bruce Lee is. I believe there are many Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun/Yong Tjun... etc. Sifus who are better than him. Actually he is an actor. I saw how he really fights in some sparring videos and he is not that effective as everybody thinks. He is a very important influence for Martial Arts not the World's Greatest Fighter of All Time. Even in his age 60's and/or 70's there were better fighters such as William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung etc.
Violent Designs
05-31-2009, 03:04 AM
This thread is amazing on so many levels.
t_niehoff
05-31-2009, 06:15 AM
This thread is amazing on so many levels.
Agreed.
WCK is a fighting art. Only by fighting can we determine ANYONE's skill level in WCK. Who here has SEEN Bruce fight/spar, know who he fought, their level, etc.?
As far as Boztepe, Cheung, etc. (whose students all believe could have beaten Bruce) -- who have they EVER fought? EVER? And don't give me over-inflated stories and reputations (i.e., Cheung once had a fight on a boat nonsense, Boztepe had over 300 streetfights, etc.). Quite frankly, after the Cheung -Boztepe fight, anyone who believes either has significant fighting skills has been at the koolaid.
Violent Designs
05-31-2009, 06:58 AM
Bruce should have challenged Oyama back in the day.
Vajramusti
05-31-2009, 07:20 AM
Supposedly there was a recent sighting at gas station of Evis in a kenpo pose challenging BL and a Judo guy in a pink gi came along and grabbed them both by their collars and whisked them away.On a given day you never know what can happen. Tomorrow is promised to no one.
joy chaudhuri
Violent Designs
05-31-2009, 07:21 AM
I heard they discover a 2000 tonne angel panda with an 80 feet long pen1s.
Vajramusti
05-31-2009, 08:22 AM
Must have done some cross gender training.
AdrianK
05-31-2009, 07:57 PM
Clearly Sifu Emin Boztepe is much better than Bruce Lee is. I believe there are many Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun/Yong Tjun... etc. Sifus who are better than him. Actually he is an actor. I saw how he really fights in some sparring videos and he is not that effective as everybody thinks. He is a very important influence for Martial Arts not the World's Greatest Fighter of All Time. Even in his age 60's and/or 70's there were better fighters such as William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung etc.
Anyone who thinks sparring = fighting, has never been in a real fight.
Mr Punch
05-31-2009, 08:18 PM
Clearly Sifu Emin Boztepe is much better than Bruce Lee is. ...:rolleyes:
.
TenTigers
05-31-2009, 09:39 PM
well, for one-Emin Bozetepe ain't dead...
t_niehoff
06-01-2009, 06:39 AM
Anyone who thinks sparring = fighting, has never been in a real fight.
Oh, yes, the deadly "real fight". Only a true scotsman would know a real fight.
sanjuro_ronin
06-01-2009, 07:15 AM
Oh, yes, the deadly "real fight". Only a true scotsman would know a real fight.
I think that Adrian was referring to the difference between sparring and fighting, be it in competition or the "real world".
I hope you don't think that there are no difference between controlled environment sparring used for training purposes and competition and a conflict in some bar with a guy, his buddies, your buddies, weapons and the security staff...
t_niehoff
06-01-2009, 08:37 AM
I think that Adrian was referring to the difference between sparring and fighting, be it in competition or the "real world".
As I see it, fighting is anytime you are facing a genuinely resisting opponent who is using high levels of physical force to overcome you. Some sparring is fighting, some sparring is play fighting, some sparring is simply play.
I don't buy into the "real world" or "real fighting" drek as that is IME a false way of looking at things. Fighting is fighting. Appreciating that fact is what permits us to develop fighting skill -- as you develop fighting skill by and through fighting. Talking/thinking about "real fighting" as though it is something else (different in kind) means you are on the road to fantasy.
I hope you don't think that there are no difference between controlled environment sparring used for training purposes and competition and a conflict in some bar with a guy, his buddies, your buddies, weapons and the security staff...
Of course there is a difference. But if you want to point out differences, you can point out differences between every fighting scenario/situation. So what? It's all fighting. The skills you NEED to fight are the same. Only the tactics change depending on the situation/scenario.
A fighting method, like WCK or BJJ or muay thai, doesn't teach you "self-defense" or "streetfighting" or "real fighting" but rather teach and/or train fighting skills.
sanjuro_ronin
06-01-2009, 08:43 AM
I don't buy into the "real world" or "real fighting" drek as that is IME a false way of looking at things. Fighting is fighting. Appreciating that fact is what permits us to develop fighting skill -- as you develop fighting skill by and through fighting. Talking/thinking about "real fighting" as though it is something else (different in kind) means you are on the road to fantasy.
As of late I have tend to "group" fighting into 2 categories:
Controlled Environment and Uncontrolled.
It's all fighting. The skills you NEED to fight are the same. Only the tactics change depending on the situation/scenario.
Agreed, though I would add that the mentality/mindset is a factor too.
t_niehoff
06-01-2009, 09:02 AM
As of late I have tend to "group" fighting into 2 categories:
Controlled Environment and Uncontrolled.
Fighting is fighting. The skills you NEED to fight are the same whether the environment is controlled or uncontrolled -- or to put it another way, regardless of the potential consequences.
Agreed, though I would add that the mentality/mindset is a factor too.
Sure. But you develop that fighter's mentality/mindset through fighting.
My point is that thinking in terms of "real fighting" is nonsense. If I get into a fight with an out-of-shape, unskilled drunk in a bar, is that some how a "real fight" (uncontrolled environment)? But, fighting in a gym with a skilled MMA fighter isn't "real" (controlled environment)? I think the "real fighting" notion is fantasy.
We develop fighting skill -- our ability to deal with and handle genuinely resisting opponents who are using high levels of physical force -- by practicing doing exactly that (dealing with and handling genuinely resisting opponents who are using high levels of physical force). In other words, our practice/training IS doing our target skill (fighting). When you look at things that way, "real fighting" doesn't make sense.
(You may swim in a pool or a lake but that isn't "real swimming" which is only happens when there is no life guard or anyone around to save your ass.) ;)
Yoshiyahu
06-01-2009, 09:43 AM
Agreed Niehoff...
My Favorite analogy is having someone learn how to fly a plane by flying...and having someone who has read 1000 books on how to fly a plane. An has read books on flying for ten years...
If something tragic happen to the co-pilot and the pilot on that plane. You best believe the passengers are going to die if you only have a person who read about flying...
Your in trouble...
if a normal person had a choice between
A.The man who has 1000 hours in command (Actual Flight hours).
B.The Man who has read 1000 books on flying a plane only.
A normal person will pick letter "A".
But if your only choice is "B" I suggest you pray and get your self right with the creator...Because you are going to be like the missing Air France flight over the Atlantic....
sanjuro_ronin
06-01-2009, 11:09 AM
Fighting is fighting. The skills you NEED to fight are the same whether the environment is controlled or uncontrolled -- or to put it another way, regardless of the potential consequences.
The skills are constant, yes, not the techniques nor the mindset.
Sure. But you develop that fighter's mentality/mindset through fighting.
ONLY way to get it.
My point is that thinking in terms of "real fighting" is nonsense. If I get into a fight with an out-of-shape, unskilled drunk in a bar, is that some how a "real fight" (uncontrolled environment)? But, fighting in a gym with a skilled MMA fighter isn't "real" (controlled environment)? I think the "real fighting" notion is fantasy.
Agreed, 100%.
We develop fighting skill -- our ability to deal with and handle genuinely resisting opponents who are using high levels of physical force -- by practicing doing exactly that (dealing with and handling genuinely resisting opponents who are using high levels of physical force). In other words, our practice/training IS doing our target skill (fighting). When you look at things that way, "real fighting" doesn't make sense.
(You may swim in a pool or a lake but that isn't "real swimming" which is only happens when there is no life guard or anyone around to save your ass.)
I like the swimming analogy, juts one thing, swimming in a poll is not the same as swimming in lava.
( sorry, couldn't help it !!!, LOL !! ).
I mean that, swimming in shallow water of the pool is not the same as swimming in the deep open water.
Though, as we agree, the skills are.
sihing
06-01-2009, 03:42 PM
The skills are constant, yes, not the techniques nor the mindset.
ONLY way to get it.
Agreed, 100%.
I like the swimming analogy, juts one thing, swimming in a poll is not the same as swimming in lava.
( sorry, couldn't help it !!!, LOL !! ).
I mean that, swimming in shallow water of the pool is not the same as swimming in the deep open water.
Though, as we agree, the skills are.
Swimming in the shallow end, is different from swimming in the deep end, but there is still the safey measure of the lifeguard or somoene else being around to throw you a lifeline or jumping in themselves. Swimming in the middle of Lake Superior, with no boat or anyone else around is a different beast as well. It's all about how we think of the situation, is there danger present or not.
All of them require the same skills, but the cirrcumstances are different. Each one brings to it a different level of danger, of the possibility of not making to shore or the edge of the pool. Yes, sparring is fighting per say, but the mindset and intent is different. In sparring the intent to do serious damage is not there, but we need sparring to bring about realistic useage of what we are learning from Martial Arts.
Just like the intent of Manslaughter is different from 1st degree Murder, one is by accident without intent, the other is not by accident and is with intent. On the street, the intent of your attacker is unknown, as well as his skills, his mindset, his physical abilities, and his physiological state (is he sober, drunk, on acid, LSD or any other drug that can make him virtual immune to pain or attack).
Out there, my intent is not to trade shots, work on my defense/offense, practice footwork or evasion, but rather to survive and get out of the situation with the least amount of injury to myself. Apples and oranges argument, even though both are fruits.
James
anerlich
06-01-2009, 03:51 PM
Swimming in the middle of Lake Superior, with no boat or anyone else around is a different beast as well.
Wimps. Find yourself a god**** OCEAN, if you presume to call yourself a swimmer! Preferably with great white sharks, orcas, pirates (Arrr!) and icebergs!
Sihing73
06-01-2009, 05:24 PM
Wimps. Find yourself a god**** OCEAN, if you presume to call yourself a swimmer! Preferably with great white sharks, orcas, pirates (Arrr!) and icebergs!
I am planning on visiting Somolia for my next vacation. Now there is a real test for my Wing Chun skills. It has it all, Pirates, Sharks and anarchy. I will forgoe the icebergs as I prefer a warmer climate.
Anyone up for joining me in Somolia........just getting there would be an adventure. Also, any who survice would have true bragging rights.....IMHO ;)
Yoshiyahu
06-01-2009, 05:54 PM
I am planning on visiting Somolia for my next vacation. Now there is a real test for my Wing Chun skills. It has it all, Pirates, Sharks and anarchy. I will forgoe the icebergs as I prefer a warmer climate.
Anyone up for joining me in Somolia........just getting there would be an adventure. Also, any who survice would have true bragging rights.....IMHO ;)
I would love to go to Somolia. Maybe by July however. I think it would be a great vacation site. I have always wanted to visit the Cradel of Life. I don't personally think that Somalia would be as bad as western media portrays it. Heck you may make some life long friends there...
Anyway on the issue of fighting...
Does anyone know the Merriam Webster definition of the word figthing?
Clearly Sifu Emin Boztepe is much better than Bruce Lee is. I believe there are many Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun/Yong Tjun... etc. Sifus who are better than him. Actually he is an actor. I saw how he really fights in some sparring videos and he is not that effective as everybody thinks. He is a very important influence for Martial Arts not the World's Greatest Fighter of All Time. Even in his age 60's and/or 70's there were better fighters such as William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung etc.
lmao are you ****in serious semin boztepe! guys a huge fraud lol yeah sneaking up on old masters and slap fighting at them thats wing chun
Bruce should have challenged Oyama back in the day.
that would have been such and awesome fight
id put my money on oyama though craziness goes along way in a fight
Sihing73
06-01-2009, 07:17 PM
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;938432] Heck you may make some life long friends there...QUOTE]
Albeit a short life still friends are friends.
sanjuro_ronin
06-02-2009, 05:33 AM
Swimming in the shallow end, is different from swimming in the deep end, but there is still the safey measure of the lifeguard or somoene else being around to throw you a lifeline or jumping in themselves. Swimming in the middle of Lake Superior, with no boat or anyone else around is a different beast as well. It's all about how we think of the situation, is there danger present or not.
All of them require the same skills, but the cirrcumstances are different. Each one brings to it a different level of danger, of the possibility of not making to shore or the edge of the pool. Yes, sparring is fighting per say, but the mindset and intent is different. In sparring the intent to do serious damage is not there, but we need sparring to bring about realistic useage of what we are learning from Martial Arts.
Just like the intent of Manslaughter is different from 1st degree Murder, one is by accident without intent, the other is not by accident and is with intent. On the street, the intent of your attacker is unknown, as well as his skills, his mindset, his physical abilities, and his physiological state (is he sober, drunk, on acid, LSD or any other drug that can make him virtual immune to pain or attack).
Out there, my intent is not to trade shots, work on my defense/offense, practice footwork or evasion, but rather to survive and get out of the situation with the least amount of injury to myself. Apples and oranges argument, even though both are fruits.
James
I can tell you this:
When I spar I am conscious of the fact that I can get hurt.
When I competed in full contact, be it boxing, kyokushin, MT, VT or even Judo, I was consious that I could get hurt or even killed.
I was never under the "impression" in any match I had that the other guy was there to kill me, we were fighters, respecting each other and seeing who was, at that time, the better fighter, period.
No true hostility or hate or desire to hurt beyond what was mutually agreed on.
Never felt fear for my life in the ring, ever.
Natural fear yes, but "mortal" fear, never.
Now, when I was bouncing and when I was serving, there were times when there was no gray area in what I was feeling, what situation I was in.
There is, to me, no issue in the difference.
However, I can only speak for myself.
dnovice
06-02-2009, 05:44 AM
me. I am pretty sure I can beat Bruce today!
t_niehoff
06-02-2009, 07:06 AM
Swimming in the shallow end, is different from swimming in the deep end, but there is still the safey measure of the lifeguard or somoene else being around to throw you a lifeline or jumping in themselves. Swimming in the middle of Lake Superior, with no boat or anyone else around is a different beast as well. It's all about how we think of the situation, is there danger present or not.
It was just an analogy to illustrate a point: swimming is a skill. There is no such thing as "real swimming", there is only swimming. Of course there are various levels of difficulty in swimming depending on the circumstances. Fighting is the same way. There is no such thing as "real fighting", there is only fighting. But there are various levels of difficulty, for example depending on the skill/attributes of your opponent.
It's not "all about how we think of the situation".
All of them require the same skills, but the cirrcumstances are different. Each one brings to it a different level of danger, of the possibility of not making to shore or the edge of the pool. Yes, sparring is fighting per say, but the mindset and intent is different. In sparring the intent to do serious damage is not there, but we need sparring to bring about realistic useage of what we are learning from Martial Arts.
If your "intent" in sparring isn't the same as your intent in fighting, then you aren't fighting (then you're playfighting or just playing around). The intent is to knock your opponent out, to break his arm, to choke him out, etc. And your opponent's intent is the same (that's what makes him a genuinely resisting opponent).
But you are correct that the mindset is different in training/competition than when I am being assaulted. In sparring or fighting in competition I won't break your arm, I'll stop when you tap (though if you don't tap, the arm will break). There is even a difference inmindset from training and competition. The mindset in training (which pertains to your comment below) is to PRACTICE my skills; the mindset is competition is to use my A game.
Just like the intent of Manslaughter is different from 1st degree Murder, one is by accident without intent, the other is not by accident and is with intent. On the street, the intent of your attacker is unknown, as well as his skills, his mindset, his physical abilities, and his physiological state (is he sober, drunk, on acid, LSD or any other drug that can make him virtual immune to pain or attack).
Out there, my intent is not to trade shots, work on my defense/offense, practice footwork or evasion, but rather to survive and get out of the situation with the least amount of injury to myself. Apples and oranges argument, even though both are fruits.
James
You see this as apples and oranges because are confused about what is "intent" (you're mixing up all different kinds of intent,so it seems like various things - apples and oranges). What fighters mean by "intent" is that they are really trying to do X, to do it realisitically. In other words, they really intend to do an arm bar realistically, really intend to do a double leg realistically, really intend to knock you out, etc. Or, really intend to evade your punches.
Of course "on the street" your tactics (how you use your tools) will be different than in the gym. But the "intent" in your performance, your punches, your evasions, your arm bars, etc. will still be to do them realistically - just like in your training.
Mr Punch
06-02-2009, 08:51 PM
Does anyone know the Merriam Webster definition of the word figthing?Don't particularly like Merriam Webster, and couldn't find 'figthing', but I imagine it means 'something like a fig' to most people.
Mr Punch
06-02-2009, 08:55 PM
As I see it, fighting is anytime you are facing a genuinely resisting opponent who is using high levels of physical force to overcome you. Some sparring is fighting, some sparring is play fighting, some sparring is simply play.
I don't buy into the "real world" or "real fighting" drek as that is IME a false way of looking at things. Fighting is fighting. Appreciating that fact is what permits us to develop fighting skill -- as you develop fighting skill by and through fighting. Talking/thinking about "real fighting" as though it is something else (different in kind) means you are on the road to fantasy.While I agree with your defs of some sparring being this or that, there is still a definite diff between sparring and fighting. In sparring you know they won't kill you and probably won't even seriously damage you, and will probably stop when you're down and out. Now I know that it's the most realistic chance at practicing for the real thing we've got apart from maybe FC minimum rules comps, but if you haven't got or can't access a very aggressive destructive mindset, you're not necessarily going to be able to apply anything in 'real fighting'.
In short, all the practice and technique won't necessarily give you the balls.
t_niehoff
06-03-2009, 06:53 AM
While I agree with your defs of some sparring being this or that, there is still a definite diff between sparring and fighting. In sparring you know they won't kill you and probably won't even seriously damage you, and will probably stop when you're down and out. Now I know that it's the most realistic chance at practicing for the real thing we've got apart from maybe FC minimum rules comps, but if you haven't got or can't access a very aggressive destructive mindset, you're not necessarily going to be able to apply anything in 'real fighting'.
In short, all the practice and technique won't necessarily give you the balls.
It's interesting that many people focus on the mindset and the potential consequences of "street fighting" or "real fighting". In reality, however, those things aren't particularly significant factors as they really don't change anything.
Look, if someone is trying to beat your ass, whether in sparring/fighting or "on the mean streets", PHYSICALLY they are going to be doing the same things. They're going to be trying to punch your lights out, take you down, choke you out, break your arm, etc. What my opponent's mindset is or what the potential consequences of that is won't change that fact, nor will it change what skills I need to deal with that or to overcome my opponent. The skills I need to fight are the same in either situation (street or gym). It's not like if my opponent's mindset changes or the consequences become more serious that I suddently need to change what I do -- I still need to deal with his punches, his takedowns, his choke, etc. The skills I need don't change. And I only develop those skills by actually dealing with those things under realistic (fighting) conditions.
Nor is the change in mindset from sparring/fighting to dealing with an assault/fighting that big of deal for me. I'm going to be using the same skills in both cases. My tacitics (how I use those skills) will change. But in both I try to finish my opponent. Just in the latter situation, my finish won't include letting him submit. I'll really break his arm instead of letting him tap. Or, I'll pound him into unconsciouness instead of stopping.
sanjuro_ronin
06-03-2009, 07:01 AM
It's interesting that many people focus on the mindset and the potential consequences of "street fighting" or "real fighting". In reality, however, those things aren't particularly significant factors as they really don't change anything.
Look, if someone is trying to beat your ass, whether in sparring/fighting or "on the mean streets", PHYSICALLY they are going to be doing the same things. They're going to be trying to punch your lights out, take you down, choke you out, break your arm, etc. What my opponent's mindset is or what the potential consequences of that is won't change that fact, nor will it change what skills I need to deal with that or to overcome my opponent. The skills I need to fight are the same in either situation (street or gym). It's not like if my opponent's mindset changes or the consequences become more serious that I suddently need to change what I do -- I still need to deal with his punches, his takedowns, his choke, etc. The skills I need don't change. And I only develop those skills by actually dealing with those things under realistic (fighting) conditions.
Nor is the change in mindset from sparring/fighting to dealing with an assault/fighting that big of deal for me. I'm going to be using the same skills in both cases. My tacitics (how I use those skills) will change. But in both I try to finish my opponent. Just in the latter situation, my finish won't include letting him submit. I'll really break his arm instead of letting him tap. Or, I'll pound him into unconsciouness instead of stopping.
I have to disagree with you on that.
Based on my experience and those that have not only competed in MA but also done either LEO, security or military work, sport fighting in an controlled environment is NOT the same as fighting in an uncontrolled one.
Skill set is basically the same, with some variations for the "unknown factors", but that is where it stops.
Again, this is based on my experience.
Mr Punch
06-03-2009, 07:23 AM
T, you ever really had the **** kicked out of you in the street?
t_niehoff
06-03-2009, 07:31 AM
I have to disagree with you on that.
Based on my experience and those that have not only competed in MA but also done either LEO, security or military work, sport fighting in an controlled environment is NOT the same as fighting in an uncontrolled one.
Skill set is basically the same, with some variations for the "unknown factors", but that is where it stops.
Again, this is based on my experience.
Stop and think about what you said: the skill set is the same. So what changes with a controlled or uncontrolled environment? The tactics, how you use those skills. But that's something fighters already know -- that you need to adjust your tactics to fit the changing situation.
The problem I think you are talking about is that the fight can move outside of a person's skillset. For example, if you are a boxer or WCKer and the fight moves to the ground. Another factor is that LEOs, etc. need skills that fall outside of MA training, like safely restraining someone, dealing with someone going for your weapon, etc.
t_niehoff
06-03-2009, 07:37 AM
T, you ever really had the **** kicked out of you in the street?
Yup. When I was younger, I once was involved in a fight with 6 plain-clothes cops who didn't identify themselves to me and who mistakenly thought I was their "suspect". I thought they were muggers. Three of us, including me, ended up in the ER. I was beaten to a pulp. To top it off, I was charged charged with assaulting them and went to trial. I was acquitted.
sanjuro_ronin
06-03-2009, 07:42 AM
Stop and think about what you said: the skill set is the same. So what changes with a controlled or uncontrolled environment? The tactics, how you use those skills. But that's something fighters already know -- that you need to adjust your tactics to fit the changing situation.
The problem I think you are talking about is that the fight can move outside of a person's skillset. For example, if you are a boxer or WCKer and the fight moves to the ground. Another factor is that LEOs, etc. need skills that fall outside of MA training, like safely restraining someone, dealing with someone going for your weapon, etc.
Terrence, if you have never been in a life threatening situation, you h ave never been there.
Just like talking about fighting isn't fighting, talking about what you THINk is the same when your life is one the line is not the same as when your life is one the line.
Yes, we agree, the skills and attributes we develop in sparring and competition are the same ones we use in "combat" ( for lack of a better word), that is to say:
The fact that I developed excellent strikes and grappling skills in sport fighting will carry over to "non-sport fighting" and will be crucial to my survival.
This is common sense.
What is also common sense is acceptance that, non-sport fighting is NOT the same as sport fighting, there are far to many unknown and uncontrolled factors and while your skills will serve you technique wise, that is just ONE part of the equation.
Mr Punch
06-03-2009, 07:45 AM
Stop and think about what you said: the skill set is the same. So what changes with a controlled or uncontrolled environment? The tactics, how you use those skills. But that's something fighters already know -- that you need to adjust your tactics to fit the changing situation.No, not the unknown - as you say, the fighter knows enough about the unknown... the fear of the unknown. Fear is what changes - how you handle the adrenaline. That's why I asked the question.
Mr Punch
06-03-2009, 07:49 AM
Terrence, if you have never been in a life threatening situation, you h ave never been there.
Just like talking about fighting isn't fighting, talking about what you THINk is the same when your life is one the line is not the same as when your life is one the line...That's kind of what I was getting at. Though I don't know his real life experience, he talks like someone who doesn't really feel fear, which means he's very unusual, an idiot, or inexperienced! I don't buy the second two in his case... but anyway. Unknown physical factors are a possible problem, unknown mental factors are a certainty for most people.
t_niehoff
06-03-2009, 07:59 AM
Terrence, if you have never been in a life threatening situation, you h ave never been there.
Just like talking about fighting isn't fighting, talking about what you THINk is the same when your life is one the line is not the same as when your life is one the line.
Read my post about my fight with the cops -- I thought at the time I was fighting for my life. I certainly took the beating of my life. ;)
What is also common sense is acceptance that, non-sport fighting is NOT the same as sport fighting, there are far to many unknown and uncontrolled factors and while your skills will serve you technique wise, that is just ONE part of the equation.
Of course it is not the SAME. Fighting is a gym isn't fighting on the street. They are different. In fact, every fight is different. There are cases when either can be the more dangerous. My point is that fighting is fighting -- they all share the same common denominator.
As I said, tactics (how you use your skills) will change depending on the circumstance. That's the other part of "the equation." Obviously (or maybe not so obviously to some), if you are a LEO then you will need tactics suitable to what you want to do as a LEO. Going back to the Faber-in-Bali fight, Faber was fighting "for his life" (or so he thought), and he used tactics in that fight (tryint to escape) that were different than his sport fighting (his GNP). My point is that the potential consequences don't change the nature of the game. It's still fighting.
t_niehoff
06-03-2009, 08:10 AM
No, not the unknown - as you say, the fighter knows enough about the unknown... the fear of the unknown. Fear is what changes - how you handle the adrenaline. That's why I asked the question.
I can tell you from experience that you have more "fear" in competition (and sparring in the gym) than in any "street fight", mainly because generally street fights happen so quickly that you don't have a lot of time to think about the consequences beforehand. It's just suddenly on you and you are reacting. It's not until afterwards that the "fear" kicks in.
sanjuro_ronin
06-03-2009, 08:14 AM
I can tell you from experience that you have more "fear" in competition (and sparring in the gym) than in any "street fight", mainly because generally street fights happen so quickly that you don't have a lot of time to think about the consequences beforehand. It's just suddenly on you and you are reacting. It's not until afterwards that the "fear" kicks in.
Hmmm, I will agree to a point, but to be truthful, I haven't had enough "surprise" street fights to base anything one them.
The fear I felt in competition had always been a "healthy fear", fear of losing when I was younger, fear of getting hurt when I was fighting guys way bigger, fear of hurting when I competed with more "rage" than I should have...
Doing security work and having some very nasty situations come my way, I understood fear in a whole other way, serving gives one a unique perspective too, but in a very different way.
Mr Punch
06-03-2009, 02:52 PM
I can tell you from experience that you have more "fear" in competition (and sparring in the gym) than in any "street fight", mainly because generally street fights happen so quickly that you don't have a lot of time to think about the consequences beforehand. It's just suddenly on you and you are reacting. It's not until afterwards that the "fear" kicks in.I've had surprise street fights and ones that to some extent that I've seen coming. Now you're measuring fear in amounts?! That definitely goes to prove my assertion that we all feel fear in very different ways! I can't say there is 'more' fear here or there (though if I were I would say there is less in FC sparring), but the feeling is different.
It was stated that Bruce Lee never beat his teacher WSL but either way they are both dead....
sanjuro_ronin
06-04-2009, 05:58 AM
I've had surprise street fights and ones that to some extent that I've seen coming. Now you're measuring fear in amounts?! That definitely goes to prove my assertion that we all feel fear in very different ways! I can't say there is 'more' fear here or there (though if I were I would say there is less in FC sparring), but the feeling is different.
A friend of mine had his home invaded, while there with his family, that kind of fear is something none of us know anything about.
WarriorWC
06-04-2009, 06:03 AM
Could ANyone have beaten Bruce Lee?
Yeah.......
ME..................:D:D:D:D:D:D
Yoshiyahu
06-04-2009, 07:55 PM
Don't particularly like Merriam Webster, and couldn't find 'figthing', but I imagine it means 'something like a fig' to most people.
Definition of Fight...sorry about the horrific spelling on my part...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fighting
Definition of combat check it out tell me what you think?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/combat[1]
Please check it out tell me what you think?
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