fong wing chun and yim wing chun article

[Bo_toxic]

If someone can kindly translate this article, thank you.

武林史上方詠春與嚴詠春是兩位不同門派的武術大師，方詠春之福建永春白鶴拳是名譽福建省的白鶴 拳種。為何後 人誤傳福建永春白鶴拳與廣東詠春拳有關？其原因有三。其一，福建永春白鶴拳之永春是地方之名， 不是拳種。其 二，方詠春是人名不是拳種。其三，方詠春與嚴詠春，同名不同姓。两人拳種不同。白鶴拳就是白鶴 拳，詠春拳就 是詠春拳。但為何後人又誤傳詠春拳出自福建永春鶴拳？其中因為詠春拳手法有鹤形和蛇形之手法。 但鹤形和蛇形 手法均在中國很多門派都存在，這並不代表詠春拳與白鶴拳同源。以馮京作馬凉的错誤傳說在武林界 中实在举之不 盡，筆者是福建莆田白鶴拳師方洽庄後人。〈福建武林誌〉

[Bo_toxic]

清朝康熙年間。福建「永春白鶴拳」始創人方七娘，又名方詠春與其夫曾四在福建永春一帶廣收門徒傳藝，其中最 傑出者為鄭禮。鄭禮從方詠春處學藝成功之後，也廣收門徒影響最為深遠。其鶴拳中有拳訣曰：「內節硬如鐵，外 節軟如棉」。近代鄭禮傳人如潘世諷、林寶山、鄭文存等著名拳師。為何外人誤稱鄭禮傳人謂永春拳師，這與「永 春白鶴拳」、簡稱「永春拳」有密切關係。其實鄭禮之「永春白鶴拳」與紅船戲班「至禪永春拳」並不相同。這與 廣東佛山「詠春拳」更牛頭不對馬嘴。佛山「詠春拳」在四十年代中，甚少人能有機緣接觸，我輩族人當時亦聞佛 山陳華順之名，其詠春拳之「黏手短打」在佛山一帶很是出名。根據當時方氏家族亦曾見聞來自湖北賣藝者,也曾 以「黏手追形打法」的紅花拳甚為相似。現佛山一帶均以陳華順之詠春拳流傳民間。筆者方氏家族亦以鶴拳打遍福 建一帶、略有聲名。時年1923，王薌齋曾與本族人砌磋武功四勝六負、這証明鶴拳或許對日後王薌齋所創的意 拳有一定的影響。【福建武林誌】
An old article from around 1930-1940. I believe it offers some insight about passed generations and if someone who speaks Chinese can translate this it would be greatly appreciated thanks.

[Hendrik]

If someone can kindly translate this article, thank you.

武林史上方詠春與嚴詠春是兩位不同門派的武術大師，方詠春之福建永春白鶴拳是名譽福建省的白鶴 拳種。為何後 人誤傳福建永春白鶴拳與廣東詠春拳有關？其原因有三。其一，福建永春白鶴拳之永春是地方之名， 不是拳種。其 二，方詠春是人名不是拳種。其三，方詠春與嚴詠春，同名不同姓。两人拳種不同。白鶴拳就是白鶴 拳，詠春拳就 是詠春拳。但為何後人又誤傳詠春拳出自福建永春鶴拳？其中因為詠春拳手法有鹤形和蛇形之手法。 但鹤形和蛇形 手法均在中國很多門派都存在，這並不代表詠春拳與白鶴拳同源。以馮京作馬凉的错誤傳說在武林界 中实在举之不 盡，筆者是福建莆田白鶴拳師方洽庄後人。〈福建武林誌〉

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=938245&postcount=76

[Hendrik]

An old article from around 1930-1940. I believe it offers some insight about passed generations and if someone who speaks Chinese can translate this it would be greatly appreciated thanks.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=939920&postcount=93

[martialsin]

the ladies died hundreds of years ago. Whether she is fong or yim, she won't be able to fight on your behalf. Give them a break.

[Ned]

Thanks to my Chinese friend, who can write and read Chinese, for the translation.

I appreciate your valuable time and energy in contributing to the martial arts community.

Ned



清朝康熙年間。福建「永春白鶴拳」始創人方七娘，又名方詠春與其夫曾四在福建永春一帶廣收門徒 傳藝，其中最 傑出者為鄭禮。鄭禮從方詠春處學藝成功之後，也廣收門徒影響最為深遠。其鶴拳中有拳訣曰：「內 節硬如鐵，外 節軟如棉」。近代鄭禮傳人如潘世諷、林寶山、鄭文存等著名拳師。為何外人誤稱鄭禮傳人謂永春拳 師，這與「永 春白鶴拳」、簡稱「永春拳」有密切關係。其實鄭禮之「永春白鶴拳」與紅船戲班「至禪永春拳」並 不相同。這與 廣東佛山「詠春拳」更牛頭不對馬嘴。佛山「詠春拳」在四十年代中，甚少人能有機緣接觸，我輩族 人當時亦聞佛 山陳華順之名，其詠春拳之「黏手短打」在佛山一帶很是出名。根據當時方氏家族亦曾見聞來自湖北 賣藝者,也曾 以「黏手追形打法」的紅花拳甚為相似。現佛山一帶均以陳華順之詠春拳流傳民間。筆者方氏家族亦 以鶴拳打遍福 建一帶、略有聲名。時年1923，王薌齋曾與本族人砌磋武功四勝六負、這証明鶴拳或許對日後王 薌齋所創的意 拳有一定的影響。【福建武林誌】


During the Ching Dynasty, "康熙" Era. In Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen (永春白鶴拳) developer 方七娘,also called Fong Wing Chun and his husband 曾四 was accepting students spreading the art in the general area of Fokien Weng Chun County. Amongst the most successful successors of their students was 鄭禮. After 鄭禮 had successfully learned the art from Fong Wing Chun, he started spreading the art through influential success. Within the Crane Kuen Style transfers the Kuen Slogan: [Internally hard like Iron, Externally soft like cotton]. Recent disciples of 鄭禮 such as 潘世諷、林寶山、鄭文存, etc famous boxers. Why then does the public misrepresent that 鄭禮's disciple descendents as "Weng Chun Boxers". This so called [Weng Chun White Crane Kuen], short for [Weng Chun Kuen] has a close relationship. Therefore, 鄭禮's [Weng Chun White Crane Kuen] and Red Boat Opera's Chi Sim Weng Chun kuen 至禪永春拳 is not the same. This in comparison to Canton Foshan's Wing Chun Kuen 詠春拳 is also in chinese slang we called the Cow's head does not match the Horse's mouth [牛頭不對馬嘴]. Foshan [Wing Chun Kuen] in the 40's has very few people with the opportunity to encounter or practice. My ancestor's during thier times had heard about the name 陳華順 from Foshan. The Close quarter Chi Sao combat was very famously known in Foshan. According to that time, the Fong's family members also eye witnessed the Chi-Sao Chasing Combat called Hung Fa Kuen 紅花拳style from the 湖北 Martial Artist as very similar. Modern day 40's Foshan mostly 陳華順's Wing Chun Kuen became widely spread to the public. The Author of the Fong's Family using Crane Boxing defeated many challengers in Fokien province and also gaining alot of Fame. In the year 1923,王薌齋, also have challenged fights with my ancestors totaling a 4 Win 6 Lost record. As evidenced by this experience, it shows that the Crane Kuen or so later developed Yi Kuen from 王薌齋 has a definitive impact and influence.

[TenTigers]

why were several names and terms not translated?

[Ned]

thanks again to my friend and quick response.



鄭禮. Cheng Lai
潘世諷 Poon Sai-Fung
林寶山 Lam Bo-San
鄭文存 Cheng Mun-Cheun
陳華順 Chan Wah-Soon
王薌齋 Wang Hong-Chai
【福建武林誌】Fokien Martial arts Historian

[TenTigers]

very cool indeed.

[Ned]

again many thanks. :)


武林史上方詠春與嚴詠春是兩位不同門派的武術大師，方詠春之福建永春白鶴拳是名譽福建省的白鶴 拳種。為何後 人誤傳福建永春白鶴拳與廣東詠春拳有關？其原因有三。其一，福建永春白鶴拳之永春是地方之名， 不是拳種。其 二，方詠春是人名不是拳種。其三，方詠春與嚴詠春，同名不同姓。两人拳種不同。白鶴拳就是白鶴 拳，詠春拳就 是詠春拳。但為何後人又誤傳詠春拳出自福建永春鶴拳？其中因為詠春拳手法有鹤形和蛇形之手法。 但鹤形和蛇形 手法均在中國很多門派都存在，這並不代表詠春拳與白鶴拳同源。以馮京作馬凉的错誤傳說在武林界 中实在举之不 盡，筆者是福建莆田白鶴拳師方洽庄後人。〈福建武林誌〉
Translated article rough draft:

In Martial Arts history, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun are two different separate entities of Martial artists. Fong Wing Chun’s Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is part of Fokien Counties Crane Style type. Why is it then that future generations spread rumors that Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen and Canton’s Wing Chun Kuen have any correlations to one another? There are 3 specific reasons why this is so: Reason number 1, the Weng Chun in Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is a name of a specific place. Not a specific martial arts style type. Reason number 2, Fong Wing Chun is a person’s name, not a specific martial arts style type. And reason number 3, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun, both has the same First name but different last names. Both individuals have different martial arts style types. White Crane Kuen simply is White Crane, and Wing Chun Kuen simply is Wing Chun Kuen. Then why are people in future generations confused over the misconception that Wing Chun Kuen spawned from Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen? Because the inter-reasons indicate that Wing Chun Kuen’s hand tecniques contain those of Crane style and Snake style hand techniques. But Crane Style and Snake style hand techniques are existent in many martial arts forms within China. Therefore, it does not represent that Wing Chun Kuen and White Crane Kuen came from the same origin. There are numerous accounts that exist in the martial arts world such examples of mis-spread rumors of 馮京 miswritten as 馬凉. The author is Fokien 莆田 White Crane Boxer 方洽庄‘s successor’s. <Fokien Martial Arts Columnist>

[Firehawk4]

Is this a separate style from Wing Chun when the article mentions this style ? According to that time, the Fong's family members also eye witnessed the Chi-Sao Chasing Combat called Hung Fa Kuen 紅花拳style from the 湖北 Martial Artist .

[Ned]

This is an exciting time in Wing Chun history for me. First was to learn that Chiang Po Lee, a member on this forum, learned Hung Fa from his father from Canton, China. Second, is to learn about this 1930's article on Hung Fa boxing and Chi Sau. Two different source on Hung Fa with one source (Chiang) indicating that maybe 100's or 1000's of other knowing Hung Fa boxing in China at his father's time line (1890's).

If Yip Man created heaven gate chi sau then why does Hung Fa have a heaven gate/upper gate as mentioned in this forum? The reason I ask is it does not make much sense because Chiang Po Lee had stated that Hung Fa has Chi Sau and upper gate. According to Chiang, his father learned back in the 1890's, the same decade Yip Man was born. Chiang also stated that his father learned it from the Chinese Imperial Army. Now there are more than two sources of Hung Fa boxing accounts of Chi Sau. (Sorry to mention your name so many times Chiang but you are a source.)

It's exciting to see that the world is really bigger than some people's backyard. ;)

[Bo_toxic]

Firehawk4 I will have to check with my more knowledgable Chinese friends on that one and then get back to you.
Ned Thanks for your interest and your take on things that is some interesting information you have written down lets see if we can put more of these pieces together for sure.

[CFT]

Ned, just one question ...

What is a secret revolutionary system like Hung Fa (Yi) Wing Chun doing in the Chinese Imperial (Qing) army?

[t_niehoff]

This is an exciting time in Wing Chun history for me. First was to learn that Chiang Po Lee, a member on this forum, learned Hung Fa from his father from Canton, China. Second, is to learn about this 1930's article on Hung Fa boxing and Chi Sau. Two different source on Hung Fa with one source (Chiang) indicating that maybe 100's or 1000's of other knowing Hung Fa boxing in China at his father's time line (1890's).

If Yip Man created heaven gate chi sau then why does Hung Fa have a heaven gate/upper gate as mentioned in this forum? The reason I ask is it does not make much sense because Chiang Po Lee had stated that Hung Fa has Chi Sau and upper gate. According to Chiang, his father learned back in the 1890's, the same decade Yip Man was born. Chiang also stated that his father learned it from the Chinese Imperial Army. Now there are more than two sources of Hung Fa boxing accounts of Chi Sau. (Sorry to mention your name so many times Chiang but you are a source.)

It's exciting to see that the world is really bigger than some people's backyard. ;)

You should spend some time developing some critical thinking skills.

All you are saying is that someone calling himself Chiang Po Lee SAYS he learned HFY from his father. Has any of this been substantiated? Or, is it just another case of gullible people accepting any story that supports their beliefs?

As Chee points out, it doesn't make sense - even assuming HFY existed - for HFY to be in the Chinese Imperial Army. Not only that, but if it were, and thousands of people had learned it, then it would be well-known in China. And it's not. WCK practitioners in Foshan knew about PFL WCK and there were only a handful of it practioners in the world. Yet. you want to believe that there were thousands of HFY practioners and no one had ever heard of.

Brilliant.

[JPinAZ]

A clear case of people only seeing what they want to see....

From what I read in the article, from what Ned wrote, as well as Chiang, they are talking about "Hung Fa" wing chun or boxing, not HFY.
It was CFT and T that turned it into "Hung Fa Yi". Neither Ned, Chiang, nor the article used the term HFY.. All one has to do is read!

Billiant indeed! :rolleyes:

[CFT]

A clear case of people only seeing what they want to see....

From what I read in the article, from what Ned wrote, as well as Chiang, they are talking about "Hung Fa" wing chun or boxing, not HFY.
It was CFT and T that turned it into "Hung Fa Yi". Neither Ned, Chiang, nor the article used the term HFY.. All one has to do is read!

Billiant indeed! :rolleyes:Does it really matter if it is "Hung Fa" or "Hung Fa Yi"? Just what are are the odds of 2 strands of "Hung Fa" Wing Chun Kuen?

Regardless ... what is any WCK system doing in the Imperial Qing army?

[Ned]

Some people can’t get pass thier briliant critical thinking with there critical thinking a$s hat on. I’m talking about Hung Fa boxing guys, can’t you fuken read? T, are you calling CPL a liar?

T who is your grandfather? How do you know your grandfather is your grandfather? Were you told he was your grandfather and you so gullible to believe that? Are you parent’s liars? Are you living in fantasy? If you have kids are you sure they are your kids? You better critically check your whole family history and take off that brilliant a$s hat.

CFT, The 1890’s were turbulant times in China and I can not speak for CPL so I’m not going to speculate, I’m only sharing what CPL said. Have you heard of Foshan Canton Wing Chun?

[chusauli]

Does it really matter if it is "Hung Fa" or "Hung Fa Yi"? Just what are are the odds of 2 strands of "Hung Fa" Wing Chun Kuen?

Regardless ... what is any WCK system doing in the Imperial Qing army?

They are part of Terence's Red and Black Checkered Flag WCK - the ones that defeated everyone at Shaolin, except those five sniveling cowards that escaped. :)

[CFT]

CFT, The 1890’s were turbulent times in China and I can not speak for CPL so I’m not going to speculate, I’m only sharing what CPL said. Have you heard of Foshan Canton Wing Chun?You mean the practice of Wing Chun Kuen from the city of Foshan, Guangdong or is there a specific group/school with this name? Given that 90%+ of WCK as practiced in the world today traces its roots to that place it is hard not to have heard of it.

[t_niehoff]

Some people can’t get pass thier briliant critical thinking with there critical thinking a$s hat on. I’m talking about Hung Fa boxing guys, can’t you fuken read? T, are you calling CPL a liar?


I don't accept what people say as true absent evidence to support their claims -- people can lie, they can be mistaken, they can be pulling someone's leg, etc. People can claim anything; their claims don't make it true.

As far as "Hung Fa" boxing is concerned-- if that is true, then so what? What in the hell does that have to do with HFY then? If "Hung Fa" boxing is not HFY, then so what if someone calls their WCK "Hung Fa"? If I call my WCK "Shaolin WCK" does that prove anything?



T who is your grandfather? How do you know your grandfather is your grandfather? Were you told he was your grandfather and you so gullible to believe that? Are you parent’s liars? Are you living in fantasy? If you have kids are you sure they are your kids? You better critically check your whole family history and take off that brilliant a$s hat.


It's not that difficult to prove WCK lineage. Everyone in the whole world can do it EXCEPT HFY people! I can trace my WCK lineage back to Leung Jan, showing that each person really existed (Chu - Hawkins Cheung - Yip Man - Chan Wah Shun - Leung Jan) and really practiced WCK. After Leung Jan, with the Red Boats, you can't really prove things, although it is likely that Wong Wah Bo existed and taught Leung Jan. Before that, it's all myth.

HFY can't prove it existed prior to Garrett Gee. Moreover, it contains all kinds of Yip Man era developments in the WCK curricilum.

[JPinAZ]

Ahh, the know-it-all, I want nothing to do with HFY 'expert' speaks again. On yet again - HFY. Can't get over it can you? Quit jockin' T, it's really sad.


HFY can't prove it existed prior to Garrett Gee. Moreover, it contains all kinds of Yip Man era developments in the WCK curricilum.

Ah heck, for conversation sake, and to give you a chance to man up and back yourself up for once: Ok, name them!

[t_niehoff]

Ahh, the know-it-all, I want nothing to do with HFY 'expert' speaks again. On yet again - HFY. Can't get over it can you? Quit jockin' T, it's really sad.


I'm not interested in HFY anymore than I'm interested in Yellow Bamboo. Pointing out fraud and fantasy isn't showing an interest in the nonsense.



Ah heck, for conversation sake, and to give you a chance to man up and back yourself up for once: Ok, name them!

It's already been pointed out -- the "little iidea" term, the"seeking bridge" term that Yip Man created and used in changing the name of his two forms; the dan chi sao; the luk sao platform of chi sao; naming the knife form baat jaam doh; certain choreography in the sets, and so on. Of course, that HFY has Cheung's TWC forms further proves it.

But why don't you just show me one HFY practitioner-- ONE -- that predates Garrett. Everyone else in the world can show their lineage.

[JPinAZ]

I'm through talking with you and listening to you lie about not having a b@ner for HFY. We can talk when I'm out there.

[t_niehoff]

I'm through talking with you and listening to you lie about not having a b@ner for HFY. We can talk when I'm out there.

In my opinion, WCK as a whole has two HUGE problems.

The first is that the traditional chinese learning/training method that WCK uses produces poor results. And I think the only way to make WCK viable in the present is to change the way we teach/train and bring it in line with the modern training methods that have proven more successful.

The second is that there is all kinds of fantasy and (intentional and unintentional) fraud in WCK.

I don't have a b@ner for HFY in particular. If you noticed, I have given Hendrik all kinds of grief over his "internal martial art" nonsense. And I like Hendrik. I think Hendrik has done some great research and is genuine inheritor of Yik Kam WCK. I give the same attention to Hendrik's nonsense as I give to HFY -- both types of nonsense IMO only make WCK's problems greater. I think we need to cut through the bullsh!t in WCK, not make it thicker.

And I look forward to meeting you. You've got my cell #.