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MysticNinjaJay
05-31-2009, 02:18 AM
China is home to 1.3 billion people.

Is it possible that a gifted Chinese athlete who has been committed to kung fu since pre-adolescence and has blended a modern MMA game can become a paradigm shifter in the sport?

I don’t know, but as of two years ago, almost no one would have responded favorably to that question. After Lyoto Machida’s stunning performance Saturday, you’d likely get far more takers.

As globalization helps the expansion of MMA and the spread of MMA becomes part of globalization, the intersection of cultures, sporting and non-sporting, will produce admixtures in forms nearly impossible to predict at this intersection. But if Machida’s drubbing of Rashad Evans is instructive, it shows that dismissing any new MMA permutation as doomed to failure for being tethered to traditional martial arts is a recipe for unsavory blowback.

Taking a step back in MMA’s history at this intersection provides some potentially intriguing parallels. Royce Gracie’s run through the early UFCs didn’t simply usher in the era of Brazilian jiu-jitsu in martial arts. His performances, both where he dominated opposition who hadn’t the slightest clue how to play jiu-jitsu and those where he showed tactical weakness, in turn gave athletic, accomplished wrestlers (among fighters of other penchants) the impetus to ply the eccentricities of their trade.

For brevity’s sake I am simplifying the historical record, but this is essentially where the chemical reactions began. Catch wrestlers picked up the guard game, strikers learned how to control posture and defend the takedown and wrestlers learned their over-under clinch to set up opportunities for knees, uppercuts and elbows.

Another major transformation, should such a thing actually happen, will likely be far slower than the Gracie jiu-jitsu catalyst remaking the martial arts landscape in 1993. Part of it is that much of the known world is already conquered; there isn’t as much territory left to explore.

Additionally, one must always remember that what the host country of the early UFCs could offer helped eventually mold the product and guide the transformation. There may not be armies of kick boxers within its borders, but America was home to hordes of wrestlers of considerable skill long before Rorion Gracie and Semaphore Entertainment Group toyed with the idea of putting a moat around the Octagon. That wrestling became such an integral component on the modern MMA repertoire speaks as much to its effectiveness as it does to its prevalence on the soil from which the sport got one of its most major lifts. For another martial arts revolution to take place, MMA must be both highly mobile and easily accessible, something that is only now becoming a reality in the world’s richest nation. India will have to wait its turn.

We also must acknowledge the peculiarities of Machida that make his karate-based style so unmanageable. It is true that the values and precepts underwriting Machida’s Shotokan karate differ from other martial arts, and that fundamentally alters the instincts and in-cage reactions to attacks or even basic tactics from opposition. But Machida is hardly the first MMA practitioner to have a karate background. Numerous professional fighters, both standout (Georges St. Pierre) and one-time UFC veterans (Jeff Newton), have long employed elements of karate as part of their MMA ordnance.

That karate is the obvious dash of cayenne pepper necessary to spice up a flavorless if ingrediently complete MMA dish is not supported by the historical record. Beyond his karate, Machida is an anomaly.

Like superb hitters in baseball, Machida’s “vision” is something to marvel. He is not only able to land with frightening precision, but he sees attacks and the slightest physical tells far in advance of the typical professional MMA fighter. When fighters use Western boxing technique to drive off the back foot as they extend their jab straight forward, Machida often employs split-second timing to close the distance by immediately hopping in, albeit with real estate expertly measured, and attacking simultaneously high and low before his opposition are able to defensively recoil.

He can catch lightening-fast, technical strikers moving in before they even fully extend a jab to the body while following up with multiple punches before they ever have a chance to retract and cover up. Those extraordinarily rare skills are only accrued after decades of diligent practice and cannot reasonably be mimicked by fighters in their mid-20s being introduced to the concepts for the very first time. Perhaps younger fighters in the embryonic stages of their career have more of an opportunity, but the jury is still out.

Therefore, we have a responsibility to remain skeptical about whether the next technical paradigm shift in MMA can even actually happen. Cung Le is assuredly using san shou to his benefit within apparatus of MMA, but Cung Le is no average san shou fighter. Le won numerous national titles in san shou and remains unblemished in his professional kickboxing career. To suggest that Le’s ascendency in MMA is yet more evidence san shou is as applicable to MMA as jiu-jitsu requires a massive leap of faith most are unwilling to make.

We must again remind ourselves that any martial art by itself is no more lethal than it ever was without the help of a more complete skill set. Machida’s black belt in jiu-jitsu and superb ability to clinch break or defend the takedown speak to the keenly understood deficiencies karate still must contend with insofar as MMA’s purposes are concerned.

Moreover, the more foundational martial arts of Severn’s wrestling and Gracie’s jiu-jitsu operated on a paradigm of body control. Be it kung fu, karate or tae kwon do, many traditional martial arts are more generally striking based. Without the ability to match control with counter-control, traditional martial arts (and boxing, too) simply are not equipped on their own to be effective in high percentages. Wrestling and jiu-jitsu have their shortcomings, but strikers of almost any style (dirty boxing a notable exception) need space to roam.

However, we must also save a place for optimism. First, while other Shotokan karate fighters may not have Machida’s vision or his larger ability to make granular, key adaptations to his karate for MMA, that does not mean individual components of his style can’t be reasonably replicated. Try as they might, attempting to mimic Machida’s timing will only lead to the nullification of the offensive system they’ve developed. But should they choose to incorporate more fragmentary elements that can be woven in without disrupting the overall effectiveness of a fighter’s style, that will only further interest in the applicability of traditional martial arts.

Second, with the spread of MMA throughout geographical areas with homegrown martial arts or unique styles of folk wrestling, we are presented with the possibility that, over time, the combination of MMA’s foundational requirements with the unique fingerprint of unexplored martial arts (from our vantage point) will produce a new MMA Frankenstein with the skills, counterintuitive instincts and expertly honed reflexes even today’s most accomplished professional fighters cannot handle. Like Gracie catching unsuspecting karatekas without any awareness of how to stop his onslaught, a post-modern MMA fighter with inaccessible skills only shared by countrymen could force contemporaries to find ways to add his or her techniques to further their own talents. Or perhaps fighting styles can incorporate so many disparate elements so as to become dynamic to the point of inimitability.

This brave new world also forces one to question when enough is enough. Twenty years from today, how many disciplines will the top MMA fighters be required to master? Will they have to understand wing chun as much as jiu-jitsu? Will single leg sweeps be as requisite in training as palm blocking?

It is difficult envisioning such a strange future, but real revolutions in thought and practice are not those necessarily widely forecasted by accepting practitioners. Sometimes reality smacks one in the face or chokes one into submission, if we are looking for the appropriate metaphor. I’m not one to suggest Lyoto Machida (and the intriguing Jon Jones) isn’t a gigantic wake-up call.

As for what’s next, patience will be necessary as we watch the clash of martial art civilizations. The more comprehensive modern world of MMA could collide with the limited but perhaps tactically useful ancient traditions of aboriginal martial arts. How long that process will take to produce something relevant beyond Lyoto Machida is anyone’s guess, but what might now be more in order in the short run is a wardrobe change.

Karate gis, far thinner than traditional judo or jiu-jitsu gis, and their manufacturers could be on the verge of newfound interest from MMA enthusiasts. And for those with T-shirts adorned with the “Your Kung Fu Is No Good Here” messaging, perhaps your old karate summer camp T-shirts could use some dusting off. Somewhere in Beijing, a young student of kung fu is interested in Art of War shows and preparing himself.

Source: Sherdog (http://sherdog.com/news/articles/1/your-kung-fu-actually-is-good-here-17640)

With all the talk about Lyoto Machida reviving Karate's reputation in the MMA community there has been talk amongst MMA fans about fighters from other Traditional Martial Arts backgrounds competing in MMA.

Aside from Cung Le this Sherdog article suggests that up and coming Art of War competitors might be the best candidates for a new generation of Kung Fu warriors competing in Mixed Martial Arts.

Where do you think the best talent in the Kung Fu community is at right now?

Violent Designs
05-31-2009, 02:37 AM
With all the talk about Lyoto Machida reviving Karate's reputation in the MMA community there has been talk amongst MMA fans about fighters from other Traditional Martial Arts backgrounds competing in MMA.

Aside from Cung Le this Sherdog article suggests that up and coming Art of War competitors might be the best candidates for a new generation of Kung Fu warriors competing in Mixed Martial Arts.

Where do you think the best talent in the Kung Fu community is at right now?

As far as "traditional" styles go? That I don't know.

But the "known" talents, would be in Sanda Wang/Wang Zhong Wang, and Art of War Fighting Championships.

Vash
05-31-2009, 05:44 AM
An excellent article. Very happy it pointed out the effect of the decades of practice and experience it took Machida to achieve his Wayne Gretzky-like observation skills.

Also, the last few sentences wherein the need to change [or, at least, modify] the existing t-shirt collection is . . . ****, it's awesome.

Lucas
06-01-2009, 12:00 PM
I think this is something the majority of traditional artists knew was coming, and have just been biding their time and waiting for the walkers to step forward into the ring and show everyone what we already knew.

decades of dedication to traditional arts are not a waste.

sanjuro_ronin
06-01-2009, 12:42 PM
Lyoto decided to focus his Karate on MMA and make it applicable in that environment, no one else has really tried to do that, perhaps Lidell can be used as an example too.
All striking systems need to be modified to MMA, that is a given and some just lend themselves better to it, such as MT.
The issue really is one of "comfort" and Machida takes people out of their comfort zone, just like Royce did and Dan and so forth and so on.
Kind of gives weight to that old MA adage of "keeping something for yourself" that your opponent doesn't know about.

Oso
06-01-2009, 06:47 PM
i don't really see it as that big concept to overcome...perhaps the meathead fans of the mma world can't wrap their head around the fact that every time something becomes the status quo, something that isn't the status quo has an advantage...in this case, Machida was able to very aptly apply his tradtional strategy and tactics in a field of battle that had frankly become a bit stale.

this won't end, Machida will eventually get upset by someone else and real or imagined faults in his game will be talked about and glory unto the new guy who has something slightly different and 'amazing' that no one has ever seen before.

eventually, if it hasn't already begun...each new evolution of the mma world will be no better than guessing which new fad will grace the front pages of IKF or BB mags

Violent Designs
06-01-2009, 08:20 PM
Maybe, maybe not.

I mean he could go undefeated until retirement, like Fedor Emelianenko . . . .

MysticNinjaJay
06-14-2009, 12:45 PM
Maybe, maybe not.

I mean he could go undefeated until retirement, like Fedor Emelianenko . . . .

Very true (though Fedor isn't retired yet).

Odds are if Machida does get beat it will not be against someone with a unique style but one of the top contenders in the Light heavyweight division.

Shogun is a tough fighter.

I'm glad to see Traditional Martial Arts getting some respect in the MMA community.

There are two champions in MMA with a Karate base. I'd like to see Cung Le come to the UFC and show everyone what Kung Fu is about.

brothernumber9
06-25-2009, 11:24 AM
I'm not sure it's right to label Cung Le as the "kung fu" guy. He doesn't champion CMA. Although he has multiple times the fight experience of the vast vast majority,and maybe statistically close to all the CMA and TCMA "masters" in the U.S; He, for all intensive purposes is an MMA fighter. The KF community may jump on his back to say "yeah look at us now" but really Le does'nt go around saying "yeah I owe it to my Sifu so-and-so and the the blah-blah pai system for my success".
I don't know. He may attribute some of his success to his CMA training, but I don't think CMA, and even more so TCMA or rather I should clarify what is perpetuated as TCMA nowadays has a proven champion or even legitimate validation of success in MMA venues like UFC, WEC, Strikeforce, EliteXC, Affliction, so on.
It's a shame that the MMA success of the more successful sanda programs in the U.S. most of which do not hold up the figurative CMA banner, is bandwagoned by the rest of the CMA community that desperately wants to validate whatever snake oil they are peddaling.

Lucas
06-25-2009, 02:38 PM
cung le was a sanshou guy for a long time, we all know his record. hes crossed over to mma, as alot of guys are doing. but i wouldnt label him as a cma guy either.

i view him as a real MMAist, like a lot of the great fighters we have out there he took what he found valuable from the systems he cross trained in and put it into a cohesive package and trained the hell out of it.

the way i see it, there are a couple different types of 'mma guys' the guys that are jumping on the band wagon now, with no prior experience and are getting your standard entry to mma. then you have the guys who have years of experience in various areas of the martial arts, their cross training being what developed what is now your standard run of the mill mma training program. the latter are the guys we see taking all the titles and rocking the ranks.

often times these champs will have a very strong foundation in one particular art, with a second or third cross trained to an adequate or to an above average skill set.

the new breed of mmaist is generally doing the full rounded mma program from the get go, mixing it all up from the beginning. good or bad? both id imo

MysticNinjaJay
06-28-2009, 12:49 PM
I'm not sure it's right to label Cung Le as the "kung fu" guy. He doesn't champion CMA. Although he has multiple times the fight experience of the vast vast majority,and maybe statistically close to all the CMA and TCMA "masters" in the U.S; He, for all intensive purposes is an MMA fighter. The KF community may jump on his back to say "yeah look at us now" but really Le does'nt go around saying "yeah I owe it to my Sifu so-and-so and the the blah-blah pai system for my success".
I don't know. He may attribute some of his success to his CMA training, but I don't think CMA, and even more so TCMA or rather I should clarify what is perpetuated as TCMA nowadays has a proven champion or even legitimate validation of success in MMA venues like UFC, WEC, Strikeforce, EliteXC, Affliction, so on.
It's a shame that the MMA success of the more successful sanda programs in the U.S. most of which do not hold up the figurative CMA banner, is bandwagoned by the rest of the CMA community that desperately wants to validate whatever snake oil they are peddaling.

I asked Cung Le himself about the usefulness of Traditional Martial Arts in MMA.

He said that TMAs provide a good base when combined with the other MMA elements (full-contact sparring, modern fitness training, ground grappling etc.) but that the forms had to go. He has said in interviews that he always had difficulty memorizing forms.

I have heard him speak about his TMA background in magazine and radio interviews. Kung Fu is his base art, he uses alot of techniques derived from Kung Fu and always gives props to his San Shou background so I think it is as accurate to call him a Kung Fu guy as it is to call Lyoto Machida a Karate guy.

MysticNinjaJay
06-28-2009, 01:52 PM
Cung actually addressed the question of his TMA background in Kung Fu Magazine:



Is Cung Le Traditional?

"I have a black belt in Taekwondo. I've studied Vietnamese kung fu. I had like five forms down. I started out in traditional martial arts. Vietnamese kung fu is famous for their scissor to the neck. But I evolved the kick into scissor to the body or the leg for the takedown. Now I'm looking to evolve it to MMA, which I haven't perfected yet because MMA is so deadly all around. You do something where your ankles are exposed and they got a foot-lock. If your knees are exposed, you got knee-locks. But I'm going to find a way to get it in there.

"Here's where I show I'm traditional. It's how I carry myself. MMA fighters who've never had traditional martial arts training, they walk in, they put their arm up to the crowd or however they do it. How do I walk into the cage? I salute four corners, traditionally. Always be respectful. After I won, I was gracious. I came over to Frank and I gave him a salute and shook his hand. I mean Muay Thai fighters can say a front kick catch sweep is a Thai sweep, but it's a sanshou sweep. It's a universal technique. My kicks are different from all the other MMA kickers. Those are traditional martial arts kicks.

"I want to thank the kung fu and traditional martial arts community for supporting me and I'll do my best in both worlds, in mixed martial arts and the film world. I'm very grateful who I've become."

Source: Kung Fu Magazine (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=773)

Lucas
06-29-2009, 10:31 AM
so I think it is as accurate to call him a Kung Fu guy as it is to call Lyoto Machida a Karate guy.

good point there.

thanks for sharing :D

sanjuro_ronin
06-29-2009, 12:24 PM
Lyoto was raised in a karate family, considers himself a Karateka.
I think he is far more a karateka than Cung is a "kung fuist".

Lucas
06-29-2009, 02:24 PM
Lyoto was raised in a karate family, considers himself a Karateka.
I think he is far more a karateka than Cung is a "kung fuist".

what if i just call him a badass?

MysticNinjaJay
06-29-2009, 10:26 PM
Lyoto was raised in a karate family, considers himself a Karateka.
I think he is far more a karateka than Cung is a "kung fuist".

So you're saying you have to be raised by a family who practices an art to be considered a practitioner of it?

Cung Le's base is in Traditional Martial Arts (Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu as he said above).

He acknowledges his Traditional Martial Arts background so I think it is logical to consider him to be a Kung Fu fighter.

Neither he nor Machida is a "pure" TMA fighter. They both cross-train in various Martial Arts which is a necessity for MMA.

But the key here is that they have a TMA base and Cung Le relies as much on his Kung Fu as Machida does on his Karate.

Cung Le is as much a Kung Fu fighter as Matt Hughes is a wrestler or Fedor is a Sambo fighter.

sanjuro_ronin
06-30-2009, 05:51 AM
So you're saying you have to be raised by a family who practices an art to be considered a practitioner of it?

Cung Le's base is in Traditional Martial Arts (Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu as he said above).

He acknowledges his Traditional Martial Arts background so I think it is logical to consider him to be a Kung Fu fighter.

Neither he nor Machida is a "pure" TMA fighter. They both cross-train in various Martial Arts which is a necessity for MMA.

But the key here is that they have a TMA base and Cung Le relies as much on his Kung Fu as Machida does on his Karate.

Cung Le is as much a Kung Fu fighter as Matt Hughes is a wrestler or Fedor is a Sambo fighter.

All that is quite debatable and I tend to disagree.
But to each their own.
:o

Cimaroon
07-01-2009, 07:57 PM
On the subject UFC fighter Dan Hardy spent time training at Shaolin and said it was that training that made him go MMA. Not sure if thats a good point for Shaolin or not....

Yung Apprentice
07-04-2009, 12:30 AM
Like Mysticninjay said, Lyoto can't be considered a traditional MAist. He does MMA. He cross trains. It doesn't matter what he is crosstraining with, he is cross training.

But on another note, why isn't Muay Thai considered a traditional MA? It's been around for centuries. Just because of the ring competition, it's not considered traditional? I'd say there is a lot of tradition in it.

And for that matter why isn't BJJ considered traditional? The Gracie style of BJJ, is extremely traditional in the way it's taught.

MysticNinjaJay
07-05-2009, 05:11 AM
All that is quite debatable and I tend to disagree.
But to each their own.
:o

Everything I said was a fact. If you still don't consider Cung to be a Kung Fu fighter that's up to you. :p

But I think my stance is pretty logical.