In depth applications of forms?

[AllstarShaolin]

Does anyone know of a place on the internet (or maybe even some good books/videos) that go in depth into Shaolin forms and explain in detail what all the applications are? Da Hong Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, etc.? There seem to be a lot of tutorials on executing forms...but not really very many breaking them down and getting really in depth about all the application, breathing, feeling & flow a form should reflect...etc. I'm sure there are some differing interpretations, and I'd like to investigate to see how they compare to what I was taught.

[David Jamieson]

Does anyone know of a place on the internet (or maybe even some good books/videos) that go in depth into Shaolin forms and explain in detail what all the applications are? Da Hong Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, etc.? There seem to be a lot of tutorials on executing forms...but not really very many breaking them down and getting really in depth about all the application, breathing, feeling & flow a form should reflect...etc. I'm sure there are some differing interpretations, and I'd like to investigate to see how they compare to what I was taught.

many of the gross movements within forms have more than one application.

after all, form is generally the overview of the technique or motion, with variation according to distance, height and so on being the other factor that determines shape of the technique when actually applied.

Having said that, a for instance would be something like a low wing arm can be used to strike the belly or to deflect a kick.

A dropping back fist at 45 angle can be used to clear a grab or to strike a collar bone or to rake strike at the face.

and so on.

When i was being taught, we would be shown only one application and our understanding of that technique was revealed when we could demonstrate alternates that were logical applications of the same technique.

not to say you want to use a hammer to do a screwdrivers job, but a hammer can pull nails out as well as push them in. :)

[GeneChing]

In 2002, I authored a two-part article series on Dahong and Xiaohong applications. See The Big and The Small: Self-Defense Techniques of Shaolin Red Fist, part 1 is in our 2002 January/February Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144) and part two is in our 2002 March/April issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=146).

David is totally correct in saying that many Shaolin techniques have more than one application. In fact, almost all of them have multiple interpretations. It all depends upon context. That's something I was attempting to express with The Big and The Small. I had another piece that I was developing on Jibengong that was similar, but never saw the light of publication. It was akin to Shaolin Shi Ba Shi Jibengong By Scott Jeffery in our 2009 January/February Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=797)(especially since it featured our master Shi Decheng) but it got into the variations. I shot it on Song mountain - it was the same shoot as The Eight Section Brocade: Qigong From Shaolin Temple in our 2001 May/June issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=136). Someday I should go back and look at those pics since the piece is still viable. They are from back in the day when I shot prints.

[Shaolin]

True depth of forms cannot be learned, only experienced. Practice your forms until you're sick of them, then practice them more until you're numb to them, then practice them more until you fall in love with them again. When you get to this point you'll be able to move with a relaxed empty mind. They'll become a meditation and that's when the true beauty will reveal itself. It may take you a few years, maybe a few decades to get to this level, it's up to you.

Not trying to sound mystical but the truth is, is the kind of depth you're looking for isn't in a book or DVD and no real master is just going to give you the answer. It can only be achieved through time and repetition.

[GeneChing]

...you look at all the DVDs, books and magazine articles. To fully experience the tradition, you study everything about the topic that you can get your hands upon and these resources are a luxury of our generation. Practice is more than simply reciting the forms. It's about total immersion into the research. Keys can be found in published materials. Past teachers, both good and bad, have left records, clues on finding your way down the path. You can learn from a bad teacher too. You can learn how not to do it.

To disregard history is foolish.

[MasterKiller]

The kid just wants some application.

This is the problem with CMA. Ask how to block a low roundhouse and you get a 6-week course on Metaphysics.

Real fighting is pretty basic. All that extra room for interpretation is left by the holes in your teacher's knowledge.

[sanjuro_ronin]

...you look at all the DVDs, books and magazine articles. To fully experience the tradition, you study everything about the topic that you can get your hands upon and these resources are a luxury of our generation. Practice is more than simply reciting the forms. It's about total immersion into the research. Keys can be found in published materials. Past teachers, both good and bad, have left records, clues on finding your way down the path. You can learn from a bad teacher too. You can learn how not to do it.

To disregard history is foolish.

Gene has iron crotch'd the correct !

[Sal Canzonieri]

Does anyone know of a place on the internet (or maybe even some good books/videos) that go in depth into Shaolin forms and explain in detail what all the applications are? Da Hong Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, etc.? There seem to be a lot of tutorials on executing forms...but not really very many breaking them down and getting really in depth about all the application, breathing, feeling & flow a form should reflect...etc. I'm sure there are some differing interpretations, and I'd like to investigate to see how they compare to what I was taught.

No, because it doesn't work like this, the very question shows that there is a fundamental misunderstanding.

All movements in Chinese martial arts are both offense and defense at the same time. You have to know not only the body mechanics of a style but also the strategy and theory of how to move within a style. Once this is understood, the applications are a NATURAL expression of the "rules" of a style.

There are million of applications possible because of this.

IF you know WHY you are doing the movements of a style, then the postures in the forms allow you to express the style's body mechanics and strategies in the most efficient and effective way. If you fail this, you get clobbered during self defense.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The kid just wants some application.

This is the problem with CMA. Ask how to block a low roundhouse and you get a 6-week course on Metaphysics.

Real fighting is pretty basic. All that extra room for interpretation is left by the holes in your teacher's knowledge.

But that's the point:
If one knows how to do the forms, then the applications appear naturally.
There is no such thing as "do this against that" because the limits your mind and make you "perform" like a dancer and not a natural martial artist.

It's an art, like a painter paints on canvas, but you do it with human movements.
No one has to teach you how to eat, it just follows from you being used to moving your body.

The moves from any action can be used in actuality as fighting applications from fixing a car to opening a door to go to the bathroom to sit on a toilet, etc.
I have used each of these actions in a class room setting to show how they can be used in application during self defense.

[Yao Sing]

That's actually more along the lines of how I operate. I have a bad memory for things so my MA learning consists of understanding how to move, where and how to strike etc. rather than remember specific apps for specific situations.

Because of that I couldn't say what I would do in any given situation until it happens, and then my response might not even consist of moves I actually learned. It could be something I saw or just made up on the spot.

I traing Kenpo for a lot of years but don't really remember any specifics, forms or move sequences but I understand how they work so I can do something similar. It's hard for me to explain but I just do what I do and it's all based on all the years of training and different styles of Kung Fu and Karate.

[Yao Sing]

When it comes to specifics I like to ask How would you use that move? or What would you do with it?

[Yao Sing]

I keep thinking how to put this into words but I always learn by example. I do that with everything, not just MA.

I look at examples and see how something is done, then I get a feel for a ruleset based on the examples and then use the ruleset to go beyond the examples. Does that make sense to anyone?

[Shaolin]

...you look at all the DVDs, books and magazine articles. To fully experience the tradition, you study everything about the topic that you can get your hands upon and these resources are a luxury of our generation. Practice is more than simply reciting the forms. It's about total immersion into the research. Keys can be found in published materials. Past teachers, both good and bad, have left records, clues on finding your way down the path. You can learn from a bad teacher too. You can learn how not to do it.

To disregard history is foolish.

I completely agree, "keys can be found in published materials", but not true depth.

[Shaolin]

The kid just wants some application.

The kid wants the answers given to him. Why is he asking the forums? Why isn't he asking his teacher? Or did he ask his teacher and his teacher told him; a. he wasn't ready to know yet, b. the teacher didn't know the answer, or c. go try to figure it out then ask me?

[kwaichang]

Articles and written material are fine for intelectual learning but knowing the history or tradition of an art does nothing for application. It all boils down to Biomechanics and efficiency. If you are learning intelectualy you miss the way because the way is about experienceing not "learning" KC

[AllstarShaolin]

Yes I have a sifu, yes he teaches applications, yes there are multiple variations.

So I guess trying to study other interpretations is a ridiculous task. It seems everyone thinks documentation of this information is useless?

Frankly I'm stunned by the fact that so many people do not think it's worthwhile to investigate other interpretations besides what your sifu tells you. Simply by the fact that everyone acknowledges there are alternate ways to do things...I'm really confused why there are not more materials to study these variations and how a person mentally and physically executes traditional forms.

At the same time....I don't know how you can not have a focus to each technique when executing a form. Everyone must be a genius because I certainly can't think of 10 applications at a time when I'm in the midst of each technique...and if you're not thinking of what you're trying to achieve as you are executing a technique in a form...then I don't think you're really doing it properly....you're probably just doing an exercise then. Yes it teaches you how to move, not just how to perform these techniques...But if you you're just performing it without intention then you really are missing a lot in my opinion.

Well thanks to Gene for offering some of the materials that I'm looking for. I'll be ordering those shortly.

If anyone has any more advise about where to find additional materials to study Shaolin forms in depth I would greatly appreciate it...not only in executing techniques, but the philosophy behind different forms. For example Da Hong Quan and Mei Hua Dao have a vastly different soul, rhythm, flow...whatever you prefer to call it. I'm interested in investigating this aspect as well and how these type of things enhance the techniques being executed.

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to help a kung fu brother improve himself.

[xcakid]

The kid wants the answers given to him. Why is he asking the forums? Why isn't he asking his teacher? Or did he ask his teacher and his teacher told him; a. he wasn't ready to know yet, b. the teacher didn't know the answer, or c. go try to figure it out then ask me?


Asking your teacher is the answer as far as I am concerned. Each system will have its own variation of its application. I will use a personal experience as an example. I learned Gung Li Chuan in Eagle Claw (Kung Lek Kuen), I also learned it in my current long fist school as well as a version that Yang Jwing Ming had. There are a variety of different applications that I have learned for this form depending on the style. This is due to the fact that some movements have been changed to suit the particular style.

I actually spoke to Gene last Taiji Legacy regarding Xiao Hong Quan and its application. There was a strike where you step into ding bu. He said that he has seen a variety of strikes there. One being double palm, the other being double fist (one I know of). In another red fist form I know, the subtle movement changes a technique from an evade and groing strike to a shiua chiao take down.

So it is best to ask your sifu what its primary application is based on that system. It could change the flavor of your form altogether should you start mixing in other systems applications. Not a bad thing though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Every move in a form can have various applications, a down ward block can block a kick, a punch, a grab, it can be a hammerfist strike, a sweep, a arm break, etc,etc.
Every strike can be a block and every block a strike, what can look like a striking application can be a grappling one and a grappling one a striking one.
No issues in people searching out what application works bets for them, that's how it has ALWAYS been done anyways.

[MasterKiller]

The kid wants the answers given to him. Why is he asking the forums? Why isn't he asking his teacher? Or did he ask his teacher and his teacher told him; a. he wasn't ready to know yet, b. the teacher didn't know the answer, or c. go try to figure it out then ask me? He didn't ask YOU to tell him, he just asked for resources.

Afterall, I doubt you carried water buckets for your sifu to earn the right to learn the applications. You signed off on a $50/month check and bought them like every other guy here.

[David Jamieson]

I completely agree, "keys can be found in published materials", but not true depth.

depth of understanding can only come from practice of that which you are taught.

[TenTigers]

two things:
one- I couldn't agree with some of these statements LESS!
Learning the form "and over years the applications will reveal themselves"
is a$$backwards.
Only in the past several generations has Gung-Fu been taught this way. In most cases, (unless forms were to develop certain energies, structures, breathing, power generation, etc) technique,application, drills, drills, drills, etc were taught FIRST, and forms LAST. In many cases, only lineage bearors were given the forms, or textbooks.

that being said, once you have a grasp of the concepts, an understanding of the applications, and how your system is played, going over the forms can be a source of deeper understanding and discovery.
To suggest this at an earlier stage is asking someone to go through their Martial Arts life blindfolded.

two-all techniques can be broken down into strike, kick(and leg manuvers), lock, and throw.
They can be further broken down by range, defensive, offensive.

The part of the body can be broken down as well. An arm movement can make contact with the body, shoulder, upper arm, forearm,wrist, hand.
Leg manuvers can use hip,thigh, knee, lower leg, ankle, foot.
Steps can indicate attacks, manuvers,sweeps, etc.
Chages in direction do not always indicate a different technique, but may be a throw or lock continuation from the previous technique.

Think of terms of entering, striking, and finishing.
Some teachers teach A, but not C, some teach C, but not A.
(how to enter, but not how t9o finish, how to finish but not how to enter)

Play the form with different levels of stance, tension, power generation.
FEEL your body in oreder to understand its movements.

If there is a movement that stresses a power generation, structural alignment, sinking to gather power, training the bridges, etc.
Take that section and repeat that movement as a separate exercise.
Many of the movemments in forms are performed once in the form (it is the textbook) but meant to be practiced as lien gung, or even as static hei-gung and noi-gung.

you may agree, you may dissagree, that's ok, See the sig.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Only in the past several generations has Gung-Fu been taught this way. In most cases, (unless forms were to develop certain energies, structures, breathing, power generation, etc) technique,application, drills, drills, drills, etc were taught FIRST, and forms LAST. In many cases, only lineage bearors were given the forms, or textbooks.

Quite correct, of course by the time they were given the forms they brought their "way" to the table and as such, the forms became theirs and be default, in systems with more than one "lineage holder" you would have forms being done different and with different applications.

Truth be it said, knowing what we know NOW, compared to THEN, most will agree that forms are an inferior way of passing down knowledge and insight in the day and age we are in, BUT in those days, can you think of a better way?

[TenTigers]

Truth be it said, knowing what we know NOW, compared to THEN, most will agree that forms are an inferior way of passing down knowledge and insight in the day and age we are in, BUT in those days, can you think of a better way?
yep. direct, hands on transmission, one to one, from Sifu to student. There is no other way.

[TenTigers]

"in those days" Well, in those days, if you learned so you can fight, What would you work on first? Forms, or drills, drills, drills? Even in Tai Chi, some never learned the forms at all, but sequences and applications.
I don't see the forms as being useless or outdated as some people do. Quite the contrary, I believe forms are the best way to hand down the textbook of a system. Notes can be lost. By understanding your forms, you can always access and re-write volumes of material.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yep. direct, hands on transmission, one to one, from Sifu to student. There is no other way.

I think you misunderstood...
Can you think of a better way, in those days, to "catalog" your MA ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

"in those days" Well, in those days, if you learned so you can fight, What would you work on first? Forms, or drills, drills, drills? Even in Tai Chi, some never learned the forms at all, but sequences and applications.
I don't see the forms as being useless or outdated as some people do. Quite the contrary, I believe forms are the best way to hand down the textbook of a system. Notes can be lost. By understanding your forms, you can always access and re-write volumes of material.

How did other fighting systems do it without forms?

[TenTigers]

some systems had nmemonic devices such as kuen kuit. Some styles, like Jiu-Jutsu doesn't have kata-per se, meaning an entire form, but techniques practiced in a specific method with a partner, before practicing free form. Some styles such as, Gulou Wing Chun have san-sik. Boxing is basic, but there have also been volumes written on the subject. BJJ has no forms and evolved into many, many techniques, passed on through memorization-joi bot sien does it in a form, but lacks the intricasies of BJJ with all their variations. It still is required to have hands-on.
More complex systems required texts (forms) I'm not saying it can't be done, just that forms are a good way to hand it down. Probably why more recent WCK styles have incorperated Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee.

[sanjuro_ronin]

some systems had nmemonic devices such as kuen kuit. Some styles, like Jiu-Jutsu doesn't have kata-per se, meaning an entire form, but techniques practiced in a specific method with a partner, before practicing free form. Some styles such as, Gulou Wing Chun have san-sik. Boxing is basic, but there have also been volumes written on the subject. BJJ has no forms and evolved into many, many techniques, passed on through memorization-joi bot sien does it in a form, but lacks the intricasies of BJJ with all their variations. It still is required to have hands-on.
More complex systems required texts (forms) I'm not saying it can't be done, just that forms are a good way to hand it down. Probably why more recent WCK styles have incorperated Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee.

It brings me back to my original point that, for their time, forms served a purpose and can still serve it, what is debatable is wither it is the best way for the times we are in now.

[TenTigers]

agreed. It depends on the teacher, how much he cares about the development of each student, and how his art/methods are passed down. Even within a large school, direct transmission is possible. Difficult, but possible. SPM needs to be hands on, but the Sifu works with the seniors, and the seniors work with the juniors, who in turn become seniors, and the seniors can eventually become Sifus.
If they do not work closely, it all falls apart.

[sanjuro_ronin]

agreed. It depends on the teacher, how much he cares about the development of each student, and how his art/methods are passed down. Even within a large school, direct transmission is possible. Difficult, but possible. SPM needs to be hands on, but the Sifu works with the seniors, and the seniors work with the juniors, who in turn become seniors, and the seniors can eventually become Sifus.
If they do not work closely, it all falls apart.

That does bring up an interesting question:
Some systems must be hands on in regards to transmission ( all are hands on in regards to performance and training obviously), does that make for these systems to be inherently "inferior"?
EX:
Boxing, while some hands on transmission is need in the teaching/coaching phase, after the core skills are "ingrained", most coaching has to do with strategy not "development", because the fighter naturally develops via his training and fighting.
Same goes for most sport combat systems.

[MasterKiller]

It brings me back to my original point that, for their time, forms served a purpose and can still serve it, what is debatable is wither it is the best way for the times we are in now.

I just use my ipod. I converted the video of every form I know, every Youtube technique I liked, and every DVD I've ever bought into MP4s and carry them on my ipod. Also, the ipod holds txt files, so I keep all my lesson plans on it, and any other notes I may need for training/teaching.

Not only is preserved forever (because I make backups, of course), but it's readily available in case I forget something, and easily reviewable when I'm in an airplane, taking a long car trip, or taking a sh1t at work.

One interesting thing to note, is that 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu uses "lyrics" to describe it's techniques. Mission Control to New York to Chill Dog to Kung Fu Move to Oma Plata is no different than Chinese forms lyrics.

[TenTigers]

Not only is preserved forever (because I make backups, of course), but it's readily available in case I forget something, and easily reviewable when I'm in an airplane, taking a long car trip, or taking a sh1t at work.

yep. my eight tracks and beta tapes are also preserved forever, as are my vhs, and cassettes.:p
So what happens to your backups in the event of fire,flood, tornado,locusts...?
and you've lost your i-pod.
It's one thing if you are studying MA just for yourself. Another thing if you want to pass your knowledge to another. In grappling, there are hundreds of techniques, variations, etc. and people are constantly coming up with new variations. It's hard to fathom how people pass on Judo's ne-waza. I have a book an inch thick on it, and it's vast.
on top of that, what happens when we get old and forget? Heck, I forget stuff now, and I'm not even...oh wait, I forgot. I am fukin old!

[sanjuro_ronin]

yep. my eight tracks and beta tapes are also preserved forever, as are my vhs, and cassettes.:p
So what happens to your backups in the event of fire,flood, tornado,locusts...?
and you've lost your i-pod.
It's one thing if you are studying MA just for yourself. Another thing if you want to pass your knowledge to another. In grappling, there are hundreds of techniques, variations, etc. and people are constantly coming up with new variations. It's hard to fathom how people pass on Judo's ne-waza. I have a book an inch thick on it, and it's vast.
on top of that, what happens when we get old and forget? Heck, I forget stuff now, and I'm not even...oh wait, I forgot. I am fukin old!

What happens when you get Alzheimers?

[MasterKiller]

yep. my eight tracks and beta tapes are also preserved forever, as are my vhs, and cassettes.:p
So what happens to your backups in the event of fire,flood, tornado,locusts...?
and you've lost your i-pod. My ipod broke. Had the hardrive replaced. Took me about 1 hour to reload everything from a DVD backup.

I have a copy of my backups at work, at my school, and at home. Since those locations are all at least 10 miles from one another, I'm not too worried about natural disasters.

If video formats change, I can always just reconvert the originals, which I also have backed up.


It's one thing if you are studying MA just for yourself. Another thing if you want to pass your knowledge to another. In grappling, there are hundreds of techniques, variations, etc. and people are constantly coming up with new variations. It's hard to fathom how people pass on Judo's ne-waza. I have a book an inch thick on it, and it's vast.
Well, I still practice hard, so the techniques I use most frequently are naturally becoming ingrained through that process. But, sometimes, I forget details, or even forget about techniques that work but haven't used in a year, so it's always nice to have a video reminder in my pocket at all times to refresh my memory.


on top of that, what happens when we get old and forget? Heck, I forget stuff now, and I'm not even...oh wait, I forgot. I am fukin old!
Well, I can just watch my iPod. As old as you are, though, I doubt you could work it. It's slightly harder than programming a VCR clock.

[TenTigers]

my vcr still flashes 12:00. I need Pan-who just left for another summer in Thailand, to program my i-pod. The way my eyesight has deteriorated, I need a larger cellphone, just to see the numbers! Texting is not an option, it's an impossibility!

[TenTigers]

hey, I'm not the only one who's senile! Look how we've taken this original thread off on so many tangents, poor AllstarShaolin is completely confused!
He's probably gotten so bored, he's shrugged his shoulders and walked away.
Sorry, kid!:o

[MasterKiller]

my vcr still flashes 12:00. I need Pan-who just left for another summer in Thailand, to program my i-pod. The way my eyesight has deteriorated, I need a larger cellphone, just to see the numbers! Texting is not an option, it's an impossibility!

Time for a Jitterbug, imo.

[TenTigers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbaNYWkQYYA&feature=related

[MasterKiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbaNYWkQYYA&feature=related

No, I meant this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNdw4CfbwQg

[TenTigers]

Time for a Jitterbug, imo.

oh, why didn't you say so in the first place?

[Shaolin]

Afterall, I doubt you carried water buckets for your sifu to earn the right to learn the applications. You signed off on a $50/month check and bought them like every other guy here.

We had running water so I wasn't required to carry buckets. I was required to do all the other choirs though. He charged me no money. I was his last "closed door" student. My payment to him was showing up 6 days a week and studying the arts. I earned my applications, and most of which I discovered on my own only needing to confirm them with my teacher.

In my few years of studying the arts I've learned that people will naturally take the easier path. My initial response to the writer was not to be insulting or mean, just to get him to put more effort into his training. How do I know he's not putting 100% effort already?

1. Most everyone could train harder than they currently are, me included.

2. An advanced level student would have already known the answer; that there are many applications to every movement and many variations to every form. An advanced student would have come up with as many applications on his/her own, then practiced and brain stormed with their classmates, then referencing the Shifu to make sure their theories are correct. But that's a lot of work and requires effort. Hence: kung fu

3. Because the initial question that was asked was not just about application but of breathing and flow of the most basic Shaolin sets indicates that the writer is probably still a beginner. When all us us were first learning these sets they were choppy, rigid, poorly timed and executed, lacking control over the body and breath. And after practicing them 100 times they got better, and after 500 even better, and so on. A student who has practiced their basics thoroughly has played with timing, speed, power generation and isn't as likely to ask such a question.

I've been training for about a decade and a half. In my first year my teacher offered me an apprenticeship and made my an assistant instructor so I've been teaching almost as long as I've been training. Because of this I'm probably a better instructor than I am an artist. I know students. Students in the first couple of years have a passion and thirst for knowledge, and most of thoughs students want that knowledge given to them because they've been to class 3-4 days a week and been training for a year or two and they feel they've earned it. They don't realize (usually because of ego clouding their vision) that they haven't even scratched the surface of paying their dues and earning anything.

Or maybe the writer is the "Supreme Ultimate Grand Master" and I'm misinterpreting the question.

[MasterKiller]

I earned my applications, and most of which I discovered on my own only needing to confirm them with my teacher.
What's the point of having a teacher that doesn't teach you anything? You can spend 10 years in a library trying to teach yourself to read, or you can take a class from a real teacher and be functionally literate in 12 months.


Hence: kung fu
Seems like most of the guys who say things like this have never been in a wrestling or MMA gym, where all the application is SPOON FED and yet those guys have more kung fu than most CMAists can ever dream to.

[Shaolin]

What's the point of having a teacher that doesn't teach you anything? You can spend 10 years in a library trying to teach yourself to read, or you can take a class from a real teacher and be functionally literate in 12 months.

The teacher teaches plenty, he just doesn't give away all the answers. The difference between the self taught reader and the one who took the alternate route is the self taught reader will appreciate and value the knowledge more, will probably stick with it longer, and get better at it then the one who "paid" for it.



Seems like most of the guys who say things like this have never been in a wrestling or MMA gym, where all the application is SPOON FED and yet those guys have more kung fu than most CMAists can ever dream to.

From my personal experience here in the valley, I agree with this statement. Currently I am the only fighter in Az from a CMA school with an actual CMA background. From Feb 09 - May 09 I just fought 4 cage matches and 1 Thai bout, I'm scheduled for my next Thai bout in Aug 09.

[MasterKiller]

The teacher teaches plenty, he just doesn't give away all the answers. The difference between the self taught reader and the one who took the alternate route is the self taught reader will appreciate and value the knowledge more, will probably stick with it longer, and get better at it then the one who "paid" for it.. Maybe. But the one who was taught properly is years ahead of the self-taught reader because he has actually been reading instead of trying to figure out through trial and error why "i" comes before "e," except after "c."

Maybe when he's 80, the self-taught guy will catch up and be a superior reader. But really, by then, who cares? They'll both be sh1tting on themselves in a hospital bed somewhere.

My 1-year students can fight well enough to enter a cage and win. I have no doubt they could defend themselves 'on the street.' Can you say the same?

[David Jamieson]

****ing contest.

Is either of you educated as a facilitator or teacher?
How can you say one style of teaching is better than another when in fact, for the most part all MA teachers are self taught teachers and haven't actually studied the art of teaching itself.

Teaching is an art in and of itself. That should be recognized.
There is a huge difference between a facilitator and someone who knows the material which would be a subject matter expert.

The facilitator can take any of the information form the subject matter expert and transmit it. In all likelihood they could transmit it better than the subject matter expert because they have depth of understanding in how people actually learn.

In other words, a good teacher can teach anything effectively. But it could take 100 boxers a 100 years before they could develop a good construct for transmission of their method.

In fact, that is almost exactly how it goes with martial arts. You don't just suddenly know how to transmit, for the most part, you are building on all your experiences with your own teachers and they on theirs and so on.

So before you get deep into a flame war about it, recognize the value of teaching skills!

that is all. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

To me, a good teacher is one that, tailors his teaching to the goals and capabilities of his students to get the most out of them and help them realize their full potential.

[MasterKiller]

Is either of you educated as a facilitator or teacher?
I have an Oklahoma Teaching Certificate, but do not work as a school teacher.;)

One of my assistants is a PhD professor in journalism.

I think we know how to run a class and organize a curriculum to suit our needs.

At any rate, that's not the issue. The issue is, when someone comes on here and asks a question about application, why does he get a bunch of yahoos screaming at him about it rather than just answering accurately, or if that's not possible, not answering at all.

If you ask Ross how to do a cut kick, he doesn't say "Go ask your sifu" or tell you to meditate for 6 years on it.

Here's the technique, this is how you do it, this is when you do it, this is how you defend against it. Rinse. Repeat. It's not rocket science.

[David Jamieson]

I have an Oklahoma Teaching Certificate, but do not work as a school teacher.;)

One of my assistants is a PhD professor in journalism.

I think we know how to run a class and organize a curriculum to suit our needs.

At any rate, that's not the issue. The issue is, when someone comes on here and asks a question about application, why does he get a bunch of yahoos screaming at him about it rather than just answering accurately, or if that's not possible, not answering at all.


Then you know what I'm saying about the art of teaching is accurate.

I don't know how people are screaming stuff at him? People are merely offering their opinion as they will do in a discussion forum according to their own understanding.

:)

[mawali]

****ing contest.

Is either of you educated as a facilitator or teacher?
How can you say one style of teaching is better than another when in fact, for the most part all MA teachers are self taught teachers and haven't actually studied the art of teaching itself.

Teaching is an art in and of itself. That should be recognized.
There is a huge difference between a facilitator and someone who knows the material which would be a subject matter expert.

The facilitator can take any of the information form the subject matter expert and transmit it. In all likelihood they could transmit it better than the subject matter expert because they have depth of understanding in how people actually learn.

In other words, a good teacher can teach anything effectively. But it could take 100 boxers a 100 years before they could develop a good construct for transmission of their method.

In fact, that is almost exactly how it goes with martial arts. You don't just suddenly know how to transmit, for the most part, you are building on all your experiences with your own teachers and they on theirs and so on.

So before you get deep into a flame war about it, recognize the value of teaching skills!

that is all. :)

Excellent point David!
You are right! There are many teachers who come from a nondescript background but they grasped sufficient concepts of their art to present the total picture! Many do it better that the lineage elements out there.

For someone to know shuaijiao or qinna and transmit its concepts to another art has to be excellent in all respects. There is an excellent fellow in the UK who has seen the unity of Japanese/Okinawan and CMA that he has practically invented the wheel (when you thought it was impossible to do it twice). Actually Okinawan karate does have CMA roots based on Southern Crane systems!
Anyway, this fellow shows that tuishou and qinna of wingchun also can be gotten from Japanese karate systems!

[Royal Dragon]

Yes I have a sifu, yes he teaches applications, yes there are multiple variations.

So I guess trying to study other interpretations is a ridiculous task. It seems everyone thinks documentation of this information is useless?

Frankly I'm stunned by the fact that so many people do not think it's worthwhile to investigate other interpretations besides what your sifu tells you. Simply by the fact that everyone acknowledges there are alternate ways to do things...I'm really confused why there are not more materials to study these variations and how a person mentally and physically executes traditional forms.

At the same time....I don't know how you can not have a focus to each technique when executing a form. Everyone must be a genius because I certainly can't think of 10 applications at a time when I'm in the midst of each technique...and if you're not thinking of what you're trying to achieve as you are executing a technique in a form...then I don't think you're really doing it properly....you're probably just doing an exercise then. Yes it teaches you how to move, not just how to perform these techniques...But if you you're just performing it without intention then you really are missing a lot in my opinion.

Well thanks to Gene for offering some of the materials that I'm looking for. I'll be ordering those shortly.

If anyone has any more advise about where to find additional materials to study Shaolin forms in depth I would greatly appreciate it...not only in executing techniques, but the philosophy behind different forms. For example Da Hong Quan and Mei Hua Dao have a vastly different soul, rhythm, flow...whatever you prefer to call it. I'm interested in investigating this aspect as well and how these type of things enhance the techniques being executed.

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to help a kung fu brother improve himself.

Reply]
If you are near Chicago, shoot me an E-mail, I know a teacher who can help you.

royaldragonusa@yahoo.com

[Shaolin]

Maybe when he's 80, the self-taught guy will catch up and be a superior reader. But really, by then, who cares? They'll both be sh1tting on themselves in a hospital bed somewhere.

My 1-year students can fight well enough to enter a cage and win. I have no doubt they could defend themselves 'on the street.' Can you say the same?

Too much aggression and ego in these statements for my taste. This is were I exit the conversation. But thank you for the debate.

[TenTigers]

Is either of you educated as a facilitator or teacher?
:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6snFMZMUJU

[AllstarShaolin]

Wow.

Nope, I'm no grandmaster. Just looking for information because I enjoy reading about and researching shaolin kung fu in addition to practicing it. I appreciate people taking the time to respond, but I'm really not looking for a 3 sentence forms tutorial on a kung fu forum either.

To help I'll start.
http://www.ymaa.com/articles
This is decent informational site.
Anyone know of anything similar to this?

The Sword Polishers Record is a pretty good book in my opinion too. Though it doesn't focus as much as I would like on "Shaolin" in specific.

Seriously, why are you guys even on this forum if you're not interested in discussing kung fu? It does get a little tiring after a while with all the 'my way is best' and 'your way is completely wrong'. I think the diversity of kung fu is part of what makes it so interesting. The many people who studied kung fu at the shaolin temple were the original martial arts cross-trainers...and very few only learned from one source...or master. I'm sure a few of them read some books on the subject as well. They did have a quite famous library at the temple.
(don't tell their masters that they are reading books behind his back though)

[TenTigers]

actually, if you scroll back to the original two pages, I think you will find your answers there.
YMAA link is an excellent resource.

[SIFU RON]

welcome to the forum Allstar, the people that get together here do so because we all have something in common - Martail Arts- decades of experience - the Internet and we enjoy it .I have often thought - what style of M/A would I study today if I were just begining. Tuff one.

I started in M/A back in 1957 in Los Angeles, there were only 3 schools listed in the Yellow Pages ( there was only one yellow page book back then). 1 Judo-1 Jui-Jitsu-I Karate School. I ran accorss these schools by accident, I was looking for a boxing gym. No one knew what M/A were back then, KF ? Funny, people though it was Chinese Food.

I went to improve my self-defense ( fighting ability). Started with Jui-Jitsu, all we did was learn self - defense from day one. Karate schools started spring up all over the city. I read about Mas Oyama killing bulls with his bare hands, that fascinated me, so off I went seeking to learn the abiltiy to do this. I ended up with Ark Wong, I accomplished my goals and much more with him. I never knew what forms were, I didn't concern myself with Belts, I trained for self-defense. Sifu knew what I desired and trained me well, I loved him and his abiltiy. I never learned a form without know how to use the moves. Forms are extremely beneficial, they are a dictionary of the style.

Watching all the MA videos on the internet in very interresting. There are some good instructional videos out there, but nothing compares to being taught by a quailfied teacher. There is a lot to pick from, and thats the hard part, and yet it makes it somewhat easier as you can watch their performance before you enroll.

Enjoy this froum, it is the best one around, as is their Magazine , Tiger Claw and everything they do for Martail Arts.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Wow.

Nope, I'm no grandmaster. Just looking for information because I enjoy reading about and researching shaolin kung fu in addition to practicing it. I appreciate people taking the time to respond, but I'm really not looking for a 3 sentence forms tutorial on a kung fu forum either.

To help I'll start.
http://www.ymaa.com/articles
This is decent informational site.
Anyone know of anything similar to this?

The Sword Polishers Record is a pretty good book in my opinion too. Though it doesn't focus as much as I would like on "Shaolin" in specific.

Seriously, why are you guys even on this forum if you're not interested in discussing kung fu? It does get a little tiring after a while with all the 'my way is best' and 'your way is completely wrong'. I think the diversity of kung fu is part of what makes it so interesting. The many people who studied kung fu at the shaolin temple were the original martial arts cross-trainers...and very few only learned from one source...or master. I'm sure a few of them read some books on the subject as well. They did have a quite famous library at the temple.
(don't tell their masters that they are reading books behind his back though)

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/index.htm

[grasshopper 2.0]

for myself, it seems that it doesn't matter if i know all the applications for a particular move. my teacher will show them if i ask or is willing to - he hides absolutely nothing. because, in the end, it doesn't matter. Showing them to me is one thing, and for me to replicate that is the other. and that last part is the hardest part. So whether i know the applications or not doesn't matter at all - the question is can i make it work? if not, then train the basics again until you're ready to revisit. there's really no point collecting applications - your body can only learn so many in a given amount of time. and what your body can learn in that time is all that really matters.

[SIFU RON]

reflex training, conditioning yourself to react instinctively to aggressive attacks by one or multiple opponents is the key along with developing the power to deliver damaging blows and damaging blocks.

"It only takes one" a quote from Grandmaster Mas Oyama.