What do you guys think about dynamic tension exercises?

[MightyB]

What do you guys think about dynamic tension exercises?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What do you guys think about dynamic tension exercises?

I look very cool when I do them.
:D

[MightyB]

do they work though?

[sanjuro_ronin]

do they work though?

Yes, I look cool.
:D

Dynamic tension allows you to exert force over a range of motion that is specific to a given task, exactly in the range that motion is performed.
It is a great SUPPLEMENT to typical strength training BUT not a substitute for it.
Most people don't push themselves enough with typical ST, much less dynamic tension that is totally self regulated.
The amount of tension is not measurable, which isn't THAT much of an issue because it is suppose to be MAX contraction anyways, but we get back to my earlier stated problem.
Most people do dynamic tension exercises in a very sub-maximal effort which, when done with weights is fine, since the amoutn of weight is controlled, but with tension with your are going 100% or you are not, there is no other way to measure.

[IronFist]

they have their uses but generally speaking aren't terribly useful if that's all you're doing.

[wetwonder]

It probably depends on the person and how they do it. For me, doing the arm tensions in the forms have increased strength. I've notice a big improvement in forearm strength, just from making the tiger claw in the forms practice - ****ing the wrist as far back as I can and spreading/clawing the fingers as much as I can. I just keep pushing the tiger claw as hard as can, and my forearms always get to the point of cramping by the time class ends.

[David Jamieson]

they have their uses but generally speaking aren't terribly useful if that's all you're doing.

any one thing is generally not usefull if that's all you're doing.

anyone who has learned a dynamic tension set such as say tid sen in hung Kuen is certainly not doing only that. There is loads of other material to work on. same for those who have been taught and taken teh time to learn by doing 3 battles set and other dynamic tension sets.

these are generally a little more advanced when it comes to set work for a couple fo reasons.

for one, the student/practitioner needs to know where to apply the tension and where to not apply it.

they need to know the correct breathing for the set.

they need to understand the goal of the set and how to effectively work towards it.

If you haven't been taught a dynamic tension set and haven't practiced it to correctness which can take a little time, not unlike learning yoga and practicing it, or hard chi kung, then it can't be expected that you would understand the value of the work or comprehend the changes that occur simply because it is out of scope of your own understanding.

weight lifters don't see external benefits for at least 90 days and the big changes can take a year or more.

runners are the same and in fact, most physical endeavours don't reveal their benefits until you've had some time logged in.

you can't look at it from the outside and say "there's no benefit".

you can't not do it at all, look at it and say "there's no benefit".

If the only benefit you are looking for is in mass and definition, then kungfu is not for you. go lift weights and follow a body sculpting program. You can get quite nicely toned up in about a year or less depending on how good your genetics are , how quickly you recover, how good your diet is and how good your regimen is.

:)

[IronFist]

any one thing is generally not usefull if that's all you're doing.

Weightlifting is :D


weight lifters don't see external benefits for at least 90 days and the big changes can take a year or more.

What are you talking about?

[David Jamieson]

Weightlifting is :D



What are you talking about?


1. how does weightlifting help you with your boxing skills? how does it help with your grappling skills? how does it help with yoru awareness skills? How does it help with anything beyond building up strength over time.

2. No exercise benefits are immdiate no matter what the exercise. You have to keep at it and frnakly, with weightlifting , the average person won't see any big changes for at least 3 months after they start and even then only if they stick with it and practice properly.

[IronFist]

1. how does weightlifting help you with your boxing skills?

Weight lifting allows muscles to contract harder by generating more tension = stronger punches, among other reasons.


how does it help with your grappling skills?

Same as above PLUS gives stability in awkward positions. Who will better be able to deliver a suplex: a guy who does dynamic tension exercises all day or a weightlifter who can deadlift 400 pounds?


how does it help with yoru awareness skills?

Not sure what you mean by that. What type of awareness?


How does it help with anything beyond building up strength over time.

Aside from things like confidence and mental fortitude, weightlifting is really just designed to build strength and change your body.


2. No exercise benefits are immdiate no matter what the exercise.

With big weight lifting exercises such as bench or deadlift, many noobs will experience a 10% gain in strength between their first and second session due to rapid neurological adaptation. Now granted these are "newbie gains" and won't continue at that rate, but it still counts. It has nothing to do with muscle size or gain or anything. You don't gain muscle your first workout. But I remember my first day in the gym I could bench 105 and my second day I could bench 115. (too bad that rate of progress doesn't continue :D )


You have to keep at it and frnakly, with weightlifting , the average person won't see any big changes for at least 3 months after they start and even then only if they stick with it and practice properly.

What is a "big change?" Are you talking about a change in body image?

People can get noticeable stronger in a short period of time if they train correctly, especially if they are beginners, and it can have a large impact on their martial arts practice.

I forgot what we were arguing about but weightlifting for 1-3 months will yield better results in every possible aspect (except for sustained muscle contraction endurance) than dynamic tension will, even after 6-12 months.

[David Jamieson]

Weight lifting allows muscles to contract harder by generating more tension = stronger punches, among other reasons.



Same as above PLUS gives stability in awkward positions. Who will better be able to deliver a suplex: a guy who does dynamic tension exercises all day or a weightlifter who can deadlift 400 pounds?



Not sure what you mean by that. What type of awareness?



Aside from things like confidence and mental fortitude, weightlifting is really just designed to build strength and change your body.



With big weight lifting exercises such as bench or deadlift, many noobs will experience a 10% gain in strength between their first and second session due to rapid neurological adaptation. Now granted these are "newbie gains" and won't continue at that rate, but it still counts. It has nothing to do with muscle size or gain or anything. You don't gain muscle your first workout. But I remember my first day in the gym I could bench 105 and my second day I could bench 115. (too bad that rate of progress doesn't continue :D )



What is a "big change?" Are you talking about a change in body image?

People can get noticeable stronger in a short period of time if they train correctly, especially if they are beginners, and it can have a large impact on their martial arts practice.

I forgot what we were arguing about but weightlifting for 1-3 months will yield better results in every possible aspect (except for sustained muscle contraction endurance) than dynamic tension will, even after 6-12 months.

You seem to be a huge advocate of weightlifting. That's cool, I lift as well, but it's certainly not the primary or only thing I do in my regimen of health, wellness and maintenance of my ability to kick ass and chew bubblegum. Especially when I'm out of bubble gum.

If you are talking about attribute development that is used in tandem with skills development, then task specific stuff is huge for fighting skills while attribute development supports and is mainly secondary to it.

I don't have a problem with any attribute development exercises and would certainly advocate lifting for strength development.

However, I wouldn't say that weightlifting will give you any fighting abilities. there's plenty of guys who lift who can't fight worth scat. :)

[franco1688]

I know quite a few guys who perform martial art specific skills training but cannot fight their way out of a paper bag. It all depends on the person and how much heart they have. I'm a believer in doing whatever works for you and whatever it is that you enjoy doing. All of the above have their place, I believe the bottom line is train to be an athlete. How much weight you push, how long you can hold a horse stance, or the amount of tension exercises you do, doesn't necessarily make you a great fighter. Some of the toughest and the strongest guys I have met in life have never pushed a weight, performed a form, and they don't even know what tiger training is. If it works for you, do it.

[IronFist]

You seem to be a huge advocate of weightlifting. That's cool, I lift as well, but it's certainly not the primary or only thing I do in my regimen of health, wellness and maintenance of my ability to kick ass and chew bubblegum. Especially when I'm out of bubble gum.

If you are talking about attribute development that is used in tandem with skills development, then task specific stuff is huge for fighting skills while attribute development supports and is mainly secondary to it.

I don't have a problem with any attribute development exercises and would certainly advocate lifting for strength development.

However, I wouldn't say that weightlifting will give you any fighting abilities. there's plenty of guys who lift who can't fight worth scat. :)

I never said weight training would give you fighting abilities. I think my only argument was that weight training is superior in almost all cases to dynamic tension exercises.

[IronFist]

I know quite a few guys who perform martial art specific skills training but cannot fight their way out of a paper bag. It all depends on the person and how much heart they have. I'm a believer in doing whatever works for you and whatever it is that you enjoy doing. All of the above have their place, I believe the bottom line is train to be an athlete. How much weight you push, how long you can hold a horse stance, or the amount of tension exercises you do, doesn't necessarily make you a great fighter. Some of the toughest and the strongest guys I have met in life have never pushed a weight, performed a form, and they don't even know what tiger training is. If it works for you, do it.

I don't know what tiger training is, either.

[franco1688]

I don't know what tiger training is, either.

I do a couple different ones. One involves tension, the other involves bricks and is one of the last trainings you learn in my system. It is more or less weight training (kung fu) style and you do 24 reps of 24 different exercises without rest (576 reps). Do I need these to be a good fighter? No. But I enjoy doing it along with western training methods (weight training, running, etc.).

[David Jamieson]

I never said weight training would give you fighting abilities. I think my only argument was that weight training is superior in almost all cases to dynamic tension exercises.

why even say that though is what I was driving at. they are completely different training arcs with completely different goals.

that's like saying: swimming is superior in everyway to skydiving.

???

dynamic tension exercises and lifting are two different training regimens used for entirely different things, so weight lifting is not superior to dynamic tension exercises and vice versa.

[IronFist]

what is dynamic tension used for if not for strength development?

[sanjuro_ronin]

what is dynamic tension used for if not for strength development?

While isokinetic exercise do develop strength, what they are "best" at developing is "tendon strength during the range of motion", for lack of a better way of putting it.
Dynamic tension is not isometrics, it is working via 100% tension in the muscles during a specific movement, typically one that can't be "mimicked" with weights.
With dynamic tension exercises you can do a full MA related movement in a "strength applied" way that you can't do with free weights ( and obviously not machines).
The thing is, most MA tend to NOT do DT exercises the right way to build up any strength, at least not a measubale increase of strength.
They are told NOT to out too much tension, the problem being that, unlike weights, you can't qualify the % of muscle intensity being used, just like with isometrics, you either do it 100% or you don't, you can't measure 80% intensity (for example) in tension exercises.

[IronFist]

With dynamic tension exercises you can do a full MA related movement in a "strength applied" way that you can't do with free weights ( and obviously not machines).

Oh I know what you mean, like using dynamic tension through a technique. Kind of like how Stone Warrior claims to build strength through the techniques used in fighting.

I'm not sure how that compares to being able to execute the technique with more strength from regular weightlifting, tho.

[esox]

What do you guys think about dynamic tension exercises?

Bruce Lee was a big fan of them so who am I to question

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oh I know what you mean, like using dynamic tension through a technique. Kind of like how Stone Warrior claims to build strength through the techniques used in fighting.

I'm not sure how that compares to being able to execute the technique with more strength from regular weightlifting, tho.

Here is the thing, regualr strength training is progressive resistence training, as you know.
It is measured, we can see progress and see how much % of intensity we are doing, that is not the case with Dynamic tension, even more so in those programs that tell you not to "overly tense".
With dynamic tension there is only 100% or less, you can't measure it, so unless you are going 100% what are you doing?
Isometrics work along the same way, maximum tension ar a given FIXED point in the ROM for a set period of time, BUT with iso's you can play around with % by using a free weight and varying the weight, thus increasing or decreasing the Time Under Load.
With dynamic tension, you can't.
So, in summary, regardless of what TCMA will tell you, if you are doing DT for strength building you must either go 100% or you don't know how much you are doing and as such, your results will be less than optimal, to say the least.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bruce Lee was a big fan of them so who am I to question

I know Bruce was into Iso's, don't know about Dynamic tension though...

[IronWeasel]

Here is the thing, regualr strength training is progressive resistence training, as you know.
It is measured, we can see progress and see how much % of intensity we are doing, that is not the case with Dynamic tension, even more so in those programs that tell you not to "overly tense".
With dynamic tension there is only 100% or less, you can't measure it, so unless you are going 100% what are you doing?
Isometrics work along the same way, maximum tension ar a given FIXED point in the ROM for a set period of time, BUT with iso's you can play around with % by using a free weight and varying the weight, thus increasing or decreasing the Time Under Load.
With dynamic tension, you can't.
So, in summary, regardless of what TCMA will tell you, if you are doing DT for strength building you must either go 100% or you don't know how much you are doing and as such, your results will be less than optimal, to say the least.



Some of the movements must be less than 100%...or you wouldn't be moving that body part at all.

We were taught 'maximum tension'...100% for the whole body (specifically the parts that are not moving). The parts that are moving shouls be under as much tension a POSSIBLE while still allowing them to complete the specified range of motion at the DESIGNATED PACE.

So one full rep of Snake Turns Over, for example, should take about 20 seconds per side. so crank on as much tension as you can...and if the tension is so high that it slows you down from there, then ease up a bit.

If you only have a little tension, but still go really slow...go lift weights instead.:)

[wetwonder]

Practical purpose.

Dynamic tension builds strength without any aids, like weights.
Forms practice sharpens technique w/o the aid of another person.

Practical solutions back in China when regular folks learned the arts as a means of defense during all the difficult circumstances relating to political unrest.