Increasing your power

[Yoshiyahu]

I was woundering what do you guys do to increase your power?

What do you do to make your kicks and punches stronger and faster?

Here some opinions I found on the net at work:


Punching and kicking speed are a combination of a few things:

1. Muscle flexibility - on joints such as knees and elbows it is almost impossible to increase muscle flexibility as it is difficult to stretch the muscles.

2. Strength of fast-twitch muscles - these muscles are worked by doing explosive reps. For punching and kicking you will want to focus on jumping squats and clapping pushups. These will not add much muscle mass and thereby decrease flexibility but will create small, powerful, explosive muscles.

3. Muscle memory - This is the connections in the brain between synapses and muscles. The only way to work this is... practice, practice, practice. This will increase your reaction time and speed.

WARNING: do not train with weights on your legs for kicking or weights on your wrists/hands for doing backfists as you have a largely increased likelyhood of damaging tendons which are very important and slow to repair (unless your totally tear them, then they won't repair at all).



1.Stretch, Stretch, Stretch. When you get up, start your day with a hot shower or bath, then stretch while your body is warm and relaxed. Focus on your legs and make sure to stretch your feet, ankles and toes. Spend at least 10 minutes every morning stretching. Don't over-stretch in the morning, just relax and stretch by holding a position where you are just starting to feel a burn. Stretch more aggressively sometime during the day (not when you are cold), and then stretch well before bed.

2.Make a high target using a nail, string, tennis ball and a small plastic sandwich bag. Place the ball in the bag, then use the string to tie the bag closed being sure to leave a few extra feet of string. Drive the nail into a ceiling or, if you can't kick over 5 1/2 feet, a door frame will work. Tie the string from the bag to the nail in the ceiling so that it hangs down about 6 inches lower than you can kick.


3.Kick the tennis ball at least 100 times every day. Don't kick it hard; just relax and touch the ball with your foot as quickly as you can using any kick you want, and spread them out throughout the day as much as you want. Try to raise the target every Saturday by an inch or two.

4.Buy ankle weights from a sporting goods store or department store. If you attend martial arts classes regularly, start with a 10 pound set, 5 pounds for each leg. If you do not, then start with a 5 pound set for 2 1/2 pounds each leg.

5.Don't practice kicking at full speed with weights on; you'll risk serious knee injury if you do. Put on a thick pair of socks. Put on the ankle weights after you are dressed in the morning and wear them constantly throughout the day, even when driving, or working if you can. If they become uncomfortable to the point you can't bear it anymore, take them off for a few minutes then put them back on.


6.While wearing the weights, hold onto a table or wall to keep your balance and practice kicking very slowly. It should take 10 seconds to complete each kick. Just practice each motion for each kick you know at least twice. Do this every day.


7.Notice that when you have been training long enough to have good control, place a Pringles can or other unbreakable object on a table in an open room and practice kicking within 2 inches of the Pringles can without hitting it. Practice not putting your foot down in between kicks, and not letting your foot touch the table or the can. Kick 20 times with each leg as fast as you can without hitting it each day.

8.Watch to see that after 2-3 weeks you'll be so much faster at kicking when not wearing your weights that you'll be able to wait on someone to start to kick you, and you'll be able to kick them first.


tips

*When kicking the ball, try not to kick it hard but try to kick as fast as you can. If you learn to relax, you can kick much faster.

*When you work on power, just practice tightening all your muscles at the moment of impact.


*Learning to trust your control will make you faster because you will not be hesitant out of fear of hurting your sparring partner. That's why you should practice not kicking the Pringles can.


*Moving your leg doesn't matter if it isn't moving accurately and with proper use of muscles, or you lose your balance. That's why the slow kicks are useful.

*By stretching, you reduce your muscles' pull against the kicking motions you are trying to make. This means you can kick faster with less risk of injury and with less resistance.

*When you first take off the weights, your feet will feel very light. This is a good time to kick the ball hanging from the ceiling.



The ability to kick well is not directly related to muscle strength. Although the leg muscles are involved other muscles are involved. To kick better requires only a few things done exactly this way:

1) learn each kick exactly as it is done(Correct body mechanics).

2) Practice the kick slow enough to be sure that you are doing the body mechanics exactly correct.

3) Continue to practice the kick/s until they become second nature.

4) Slowly, work for more speed.

NOTE: It is much better to do a few kicks at a time(Correctly), than to do a lot of kicks that get sloppy.

If you practice something incorrectly for many years, you get very good at doing it incorrectly. However if you practice something correctly, you get very good at it in less time. More kicks are not better, Correct kicks in low numbers are.

What more can you add?

[Violent Designs]

I pray to Jesus and he gives me power.

[Hendrik]

气属阳，血属阴。呼吸自然勿紧张，如犯此错误，则全身紧张，力和气就憋在身上，放不出去。气不能沉，沉者劲 惰，气即不能浮；浮者劲僵。所以说要自然腹式深呼吸。气贯周身，肌肉得温养。拳语曰：“用力则力死，用气则 气滞。”体内的真气得以转变成真劲。
还有最重要一项——精神训练。王芗斋先生说：“神动得自有象外，意存妙在无念中。”最好的训练方法，也必须 追寻王选杰老先生的提倡“四无”精神境界和精神含射术。

[Xiao3 Meng4]

My strength comes from the power of GraySkull.

When that doesn't work, I get my friends together, strip to the waist, and "care."

When THAT doesn't work, I rely on the training that I've done according to the telepathic lessons I received from your sifu through dreams. He told me they were the same things he taught you.

Which is why I will have to resort to my 1980s North American TV Qi style to defeat you if ever we meet!

...Unless you've never done cardio or bodyweight training or full throttle sparring... then I might be able to keep my Qi skills hidden for another time.

[Violent Designs]

Jesus gave me the power of 10,000 men tonight.

[LSWCTN1]

on a serious note....

i have heard Kev Bell is the man to see for improving your punching power, he may have a dvd coming out shortly

[t_niehoff]

"Power" in WCK comes from the YJKYM which is a certain, specific way of using the body (that does not rely on rotation or stepping). This is what we call WCK body structure. You develop power by developing your body structure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Power is the ability to do "work" over a period of time.
The more work you do in the same period of time = more power
Doing the same work in less time = more power
Doing more work in less time = more power

Perhaps power is not the best way to "quantify" what you want.
Maybe you want to increase certain "types" of power like, explosive power.
Maybe you want to increase the amount of weight being placed in a strike or the amount of kinetic energy.

[anerlich]

That article was more about developing speed and facility with high kicks than developing a pwerful kick (assuming "power" means the ability ot cause trauma to the object being kicked).

The stretching info isn't exactly on the cutting edge of sports science, though it's probably reasonably good advice for anyone but pro athletes or highly committed amateurs. Better to warm the body up with activity rather than a hot bath or shower.

To develop pwerful and effective kicks, you need to kck objects that are going ot give you feedback. If all you do is kick in the air or light objects, you'll fall over the first time you connect hard with anything with significant mass.

[Wu Wei Wu]

The two principles that facilitate the body to become stronger and more powerful (power is defined as ability of the body to move ballistically) are;

i) overload – adding greater degrees of resistance/loads/weight; and
ii) specificity – making the training as specific to the sport as possible

Suki

[Hendrik]

The two principles that facilitate the body to become stronger and more powerful (power is defined as ability of the body to move ballistically) are;

i) overload – adding greater degrees of resistance/loads/weight; and
ii) specificity – making the training as specific to the sport as possible

Suki



Believe it or not, and some dont realized it.

what you post is a totally opposite of what the TCMA's direction.


呼吸自然勿紧张，如犯此错误，则全身紧张，力和气就憋在身上，放不出去。

气不能沉，沉者劲 惰，气即不能浮；浮者劲僵。

所以说要自然腹式深呼吸。气贯周身，肌肉得温养。

拳语曰：“用力则力死，用气则 气滞。”体内的真气得以转变成真劲。


Thus, WCK will not work properly.

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post please elaborate what you mean by resistance? What forms of resistance do you suggest?

Also how can one train to be able to deliver a devasting blow to a opponent who may be moving or attacking. How can one train to issue enough force and power to damage a evasive or charging opponent?




That article was more about developing speed and facility with high kicks than developing a pwerful kick (assuming "power" means the ability ot cause trauma to the object being kicked).

The stretching info isn't exactly on the cutting edge of sports science, though it's probably reasonably good advice for anyone but pro athletes or highly committed amateurs. Better to warm the body up with activity rather than a hot bath or shower.

To develop pwerful and effective kicks, you need to kck objects that are going ot give you feedback. If all you do is kick in the air or light objects, you'll fall over the first time you connect hard with anything with significant mass.

[AdrianK]

Believe it or not, and some dont realized it.

what you post is a totally opposite of what the TCMA's direction.


呼吸自然勿紧张，如犯此错误，则全身紧张，力和气就憋在身上，放不出去。

气不能沉，沉者劲 惰，气即不能浮；浮者劲僵。

所以说要自然腹式深呼吸。气贯周身，肌肉得温养。

拳语曰：“用力则力死，用气则 气滞。”体内的真气得以转变成真劲。


Thus, WCK will not work properly.

I'd love to see those who think the opposite way to try their hand at fighting a professional fighter, one of these days. :rolleyes:

That being said, there are numerous advantages to strength training BESIDES martial arts... and since we live in the REAL world where we more often then not have to use our strength for things BESIDES martial arts, its far more important.

[golgo]

I am by no means an expert in MA, but wouldn't the (simple) answer be weight/resistance training, heavy bag work and mastering your technique/form?

[Mr Punch]

2. Strength of fast-twitch muscles - these muscles are worked by doing explosive reps. For punching and kicking you will want to focus on jumping squats and clapping pushups. These will not add much muscle mass and thereby decrease flexibility but will create small, powerful, explosive muscles.
THE WRONGNESS 1! 'Fast twitch' muscles only being affected by fast exercises is a myth. Maximal weightlifting at any speed will improve fast twitch muscle reactions by stimulating the muscle at the point of firing.

THE WRONGNESS 2! Muscle mass does not decrease flexibility. Age, injury, and not warming up and down properly decreases flexibility. If you strecth properly it doesn't matter how big you are.


1.Stretch, Stretch, Stretch. When you get up, start your day with a hot shower or bath, then stretch while your body is warm and relaxed. Focus on your legs and make sure to stretch your feet, ankles and toes. Spend at least 10 minutes every morning stretching. Don't over-stretch in the morning, just relax and stretch by holding a position where you are just starting to feel a burn. Stretch more aggressively sometime during the day (not when you are cold), and then stretch well before bed.

THE WRONGNESS! This is total bollocks. You should always do dynamic stretching before any static stretching. Read Thomas Kurz or Pavel.
The rest of this segment is largely bollocks too! :D


The ability to kick well is not directly related to muscle strength. More WRONGNESS! If you don't have the muscle strength to support your leg/arm in the full range of movement you will not be able to kick well and will have a much increased chance of injury. Of course form is important, but muscle strength is too. Kurz recommends (somewhat arbitrarily perhaps) that you should be able to do ten squats with your bodyweight on your back before you should try any kind of flexibility exercise (well actually he also states you have no business doing any martial art if you can't do that as a basic exercise - but that's more arbitrary!).

[Mr Punch]

I am by no means an expert in MA, but wouldn't the (simple) answer be weight/resistance training, heavy bag work and mastering your technique/form?Sounds good to me.

The moot point is mastering your technique/form. As T and Hendrik have already stated (my god! They're agreeing! Watch the skies!) in the main traditionally this is against the principles of resistance training. However, just as I think it's easy enough to cross train without confusing principles as long as you're not a moron, I also think it's easy enough (and much better) to lift weights AND keep to your traditional training. I think of it like this: if I miss my perfect wing chun punch or JJ takedown or whatever, I can just rely on brute force and ignorance! :D

[-木叶-]

Believe it or not, and some dont realized it.
what you post is a totally opposite of what the TCMA's direction.
Thus, WCK will not work properly.



The two principles that facilitate the body to become stronger and more powerful (power is defined as ability of the body to move ballistically) are;

i) overload – adding greater degrees of resistance/loads/weight; and
ii) specificity – making the training as specific to the sport as possible




Hi, actually i do it like Wu Wei, i normally separate such "power" training" away from Wing Chun training, as in 2 separate sessions.

What i mean is e.g. throwing a yat ji kuen with full power is in contrast to Wing Chun principles, so during yat ji kuen training, there is no power. (This is a very poor analogy, lol)

But in a separate training on e.g. weights, then power training comes into play.

[Hendrik]

Hi, actually i do it like Wu Wei, i normally separate such "power" training" away from Wing Chun training, as in 2 separate sessions.

What i mean is e.g. throwing a yat ji kuen with full power is in contrast to Wing Chun principles, so during yat ji kuen training, there is no power. (This is a very poor analogy, lol)

But in a separate training on e.g. weights, then power training comes into play.



See, we cant train in two totally opposite direction and makes them work in the same body.

[golgo]

See, we cant train in two totally opposite direction and makes them work in the same body.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. I train to push. I train to pull. 2 opposite directions, and both work quite well. Perhaps I am not understanding your point. :confused:

[Hendrik]

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. I train to push. I train to pull. 2 opposite directions, and both work quite well. Perhaps I am not understanding your point. :confused:

yup. you dont. because I am posting for 木叶 in response to his post in different methodological direction. not the push and pull direction as you think.

your push and pull is fine because you are actually training in one methodological direction.

[Mr Punch]

See, we cant train in two totally opposite direction and makes them work in the same body.Nonsense. They're very different, but they're not opposite directions at all. I can train yoga and it doesn't interfere with my wing chun. I can train tai-chi and it doesn't interfere with wing chun. I can train kyokushin and it doesn't interfere with wing chun. I could even train goju and it wouldn't interfere, despite having at least superficially similar stances yet having hard conditioning and weights.

And yes I know tai chi has many parallels with wing chun but it too has many differences and is much closer to the aim of practising wing chun so there is much greater potential for confusion than with weightlifting and practising wing chun.

[Hendrik]

Nonsense. They're very different, but they're not opposite directions at all.
I can train yoga and it doesn't interfere with my wing chun.
I can train tai-chi and it doesn't interfere with wing chun.
I can train kyokushin and it doesn't interfere with wing chun.
I could even train goju and it wouldn't interfere, despite having at least superficially similar stances yet having hard conditioning and weights.

And yes I know tai chi has many parallels with wing chun but it too has many differences and is much closer to the aim of practising wing chun so there is much greater potential for confusion than with weightlifting and practising wing chun.


Sure, according to you you certainly right.

however, according to the TCMA expert such as WXZ that is not the case.



呼吸自然勿紧张，如犯此错误，则全身紧张，力和气就憋在身上，放不出去。

气不能沉，沉者劲 惰，气即不能浮；浮者劲僵。

所以说要自然腹式深呼吸。气贯周身，肌肉得温养。

拳语曰：“用力则力死，用气则 气滞。”体内的真气得以转变成真劲。




BTW

one's training is either a hard bow or a soft jin cant be both.
doing both default to hard bow which soft jin never could be reached.


from your description above you are within the Hard Bow region and it doesnt matter you train in Kyokushin, WCK, Taiji, Yoga.....etc.

[Mr Punch]

呼吸自然勿紧张，如犯此错误，则全身紧张，力和气就憋在身上，放不出去。

气不能沉，沉者劲 惰，气即不能浮；浮者劲僵。

所以说要自然腹式深呼吸。气贯周身，肌肉得温养。

拳语曰：“用力则力死，用气则 气滞。”体内的真气得以转变成真劲Well done. That's certainly the end of the argument since I can't read Chinese! :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

from your description above you are within the Hard Bow region.Did you do wing chun and kyokushin at the same time?

[Wu Wei Wu]

Yoshiyahu (sp?),

You asked about resistance;

The principled approach I use as follows; firstly, I take the activity that I am trying to improve. As well as analyzing it as a kinetic chain I also break it down to its smallest components. For instance, you can take a straight lead punch in its ‘wholeness’ as well as view it in terms of e.g. the step, the drop in weight over the lead leg, hip and shoulder rotation, extension of arm, structural integrity/alignment of wrist and elbow… etc etc.

Once I have a breakdown of the whole and dissected components of the motion, the formula I use is a simple one; ‘how do I train the same motion, using the same dynamic, but load it with weight or resistance in the opposing plane of motion that the action uses?’

To give you some idea of where this leads some of the tools I rely upon to provide resistance include, 2lb dumbells, resistance/rubber bands (like bicycle inner tubes), weighted vest, heavy bag.

Suki

[Hendrik]

Did you do wing chun and kyokushin at the same time?

Yup. I am dong both with Hard Bow once upon a time in my life.

[Mr Punch]

And according to you, what part of my descriptions tell you I'm 'hard bow'?

I practice yoga at least once, sometimes twice a day, MA about once every other day, and weightlifting max 4 times a week. I can't do weightlifting if I neglect my yoga because of various injuries. My MA is all about moving with efficiency: how to hang my meat off my structure. I have tried bong sao 'exercises' and lop sao 'exercises' on a cable machine: it doesn't work to make you stronger in a way useful to martial arts (though it is useful for testing imbalances in stance under pressure to some extent).

So how am I 'hard bow'?! (And what is 'hard bow'?! :D )

[Hendrik]

And according to you, what part of my descriptions tell you I'm 'hard bow'?

I practice yoga at least once, sometimes twice a day,
MA about once every other day, and weightlifting max 4 times a week.

I can't do weightlifting if I neglect my yoga because of various injuries.

My MA is all about moving with efficiency: how to hang my meat off my structure.

I have tried bong sao 'exercises' and lop sao 'exercises' on a cable machine: it doesn't work to make you stronger in a way useful to martial arts (though it is useful for testing imbalances in stance under pressure to some extent).

So how am I 'hard bow'?! (And what is 'hard bow'?! :D )



Seriously, I am not picking at you but speaking the truth.

Hard bow is a chinese MA term on develop muscle, sinew, bone via excercise it, tensing it.... dynamic tension...etc


Why I know? because your dont have any signature of soft jin training but hard bow training signatures.


BTW. Yoga is hard bow in general.

Soft Jin deal with multi-dimentional force vectors.

[anerlich]

I am by no means an expert in MA, but wouldn't the (simple) answer be weight/resistance training, heavy bag work and mastering your technique/form?


Follow that, you'll probably do at least as well as you would following all of the more "traditional" and "sophisticated" advice given above.

You'd also want some drills to learn timing for the kicks, some set-ups, and sparring ot get timing and dynamic distancing.

Mr Punch is right about stretching methodology. My point is that most people don't bother to stretch at all, and some stretching is better than none. My experience is that Pavel can be a bit too gung-ho - I ripped a hamstring once doing hard PNF stretches and it took nearly a year to get all the flexibilitiy back again. I still do PNF, but no longer trying for mximial tension in the stretched muscle. I realise my mistake was a technical one, but IMO at the extreme end of this training the margin for error is too small and the risk too big. YMMV.

I agree techniique is very important, but seeking perfect form can sometimes impede effectiveness. Performance overrides precision.

[Mr Punch]

Hard bow is a chinese MA term on develop muscle, sinew, bone via excercise it, tensing it.... dynamic tension...etc


Why I know? because your dont have any signature of soft jin training but hard bow training signatures.


BTW. Yoga is hard bow in general.

Soft Jin deal with multi-dimentional force vectors.Ahh, that makes perfect sense. And yes, I can understand how yoga can be put in with weight-training purely in terms of how you use the muscles.

I still reckon you can train both say, weights and wing chun, mind. And obviously would appreciate a translation of the above Chinese.

[Mr Punch]

Andrew, I agree on Pavel: I prefer Kurz.

[Hendrik]

Ahh, that makes perfect sense. And yes, I can understand how yoga can be put in with weight-training purely in terms of how you use the muscles.

I still reckon you can train both say, weights and wing chun, mind. And obviously would appreciate a translation of the above Chinese.

1, there are hard bow and soft jin WCK.

2, any one wants to give a try on translate the chinese above?

[Edmund]

More WRONGNESS! If you don't have the muscle strength to support your leg/arm in the full range of movement you will not be able to kick well and will have a much increased chance of injury. Of course form is important, but muscle strength is too. Kurz recommends (somewhat arbitrarily perhaps) that you should be able to do ten squats with your bodyweight on your back before you should try any kind of flexibility exercise

I read Kurz Stretching Scientifically as well. I'd say that's very arbitrary!

Squats and flexibility exercises aren't related for every movement.

A squat has a certain range of movement and a lot of leg stretches and kicks are in different unrelated ranges so it's not going to help being a certain level of squat strength.

If you look at yoga, the standing poses are a combination of strength and a range of movement but a beginner only needs the strength to stand. Deeper versions of poses require more strength and ROM. e.g. Almost any person (weak/strong) can assume the starting standing position to enter hanumanasana (the splits) just by putting one foot in front of the other. They can initially use some sort of support with chairs for their arms if their legs are that weak or they are too high off the ground. It's more important to build the strength to support yourself *at that position*.

Squats won't help because it's a unrelated position.

[imperialtaichi]

Learning to relax to develop striking power does NOT mean being floppy;

Since kinetic energy K=m*v*v/2, the more you utilize the mass of a weapon at a higher velocity, and the more energy it transfers during contact, the more damage it does to the target.

The way to do a relaxed strike is to "relax all the dead weight into" the target; avoid using antagonistic muscles maximizes the speed; and not tensing acts like a "Newton Cradle" which transfers all the energy into the target.

Analogy would be like using an axe to chop into a tree. It is relaxed power and not tense power; and let the weight of the ae head do the rest.

Cheers,
John

[LSWCTN1]

Learning to relax to develop striking power does NOT mean being floppy;

Since kinetic energy K=m*v*v/2, the more you utilize the mass of a weapon at a higher velocity, and the more energy it transfers during contact, the more damage it does to the target.

The way to do a relaxed strike is to "relax all the dead weight into" the target; avoid using antagonistic muscles maximizes the speed; and not tensing acts like a "Newton Cradle" which transfers all the energy into the target.

Analogy would be like using an axe to chop into a tree. It is relaxed power and not tense power; and let the weight of the ae head do the rest.

Cheers,
John

like systema practicioners advocate?

[CFT]

like systema practitioners advocate?It's a very interesting method because they claim it is all about arm punching, something which most WCKers scorn.

[bennyvt]

if proper squats are done ie butt touches the floor. It will give the full range me motion. Power is a curve between strength and speed. But after the optimum ratio he you add ore strength or speed the power decrease. Meaning both have to be equal to get the best results. So the only way to increase power is but getting stronger and quicker. Power training is teaching all muscle fibres to fire at the same time, the weight depends if you work speed or strength ie 60 % rm for speed 80 % for strength.

[CFT]

I still reckon you can train both say, weights and wing chun, mind. And obviously would appreciate a translation of the above Chinese.Here you go Mr. P. Not perfect but it might make some sense.


呼吸自然勿緊張，如犯此錯誤，則全身緊張，力和氣就憋在身上，放不出去。
Breath naturally without tension. If you make this mistake then your whole body will tense, both strength (li/lik) and breath (qi/chi/hei) will be trapped in the body with no way out.


氣不能沉，沉者勁惰，氣即不能浮；浮者勁僵。
The breath (qi/chi/hei) must not sink, he who sinks the power (jin/ging) becomes idle. The breath (qi/chi/hei) must not float, he who floats the power (jin/ging) becomes stiff.


所以說要自然腹式深呼吸。氣貫周身，肌肉得溫養。
Therefore we say use natural deep abdominal breathing. Breath suffuses the entire body, the muscles warm up.


拳語曰：“用力則力死，用氣則氣滯。”體內的真氣得以轉變成真勁。
The fist sayings state: “Use strength the strength dies, use breath the breath obstructs”. The “real breath” (zhenqi/zun hei) in the body must be transformed into actual power (zhenjin/zun ging).

[Edmund]

if proper squats are done ie butt touches the floor. It will give the full range me motion

Hip abduction does not occur during squats. Neither does external and internal rotation of the hip joint. Doesn't matter how far you squat down.

[sanjuro_ronin]

if proper squats are done ie butt touches the floor. It will give the full range me motion. Power is a curve between strength and speed. But after the optimum ratio he you add ore strength or speed the power decrease. Meaning both have to be equal to get the best results. So the only way to increase power is but getting stronger and quicker. Power training is teaching all muscle fibres to fire at the same time, the weight depends if you work speed or strength ie 60 % rm for speed 80 % for strength.

Your butt CAN'T touch the floor on a squat.

Full range of motion for the aruat has been debated quite a bit, fact is, in virtually no know motion do we "full" Squat, either in every day life or athletic performance.
Even powerlfiters only break parallel.
That said, I do advocate going down as far as comfortable when doing squats.

[bennyvt]

no exercise can use all muscles. Especially both add or abductors. I was refering to flexibility. Power lifters pretty much touch the ground when lifting. Closer to the ground then horizontal. Examples of use. Getting into the back of a truck or any step about waist height, if contact is made with kick really close in. These are very obscure but it more comes down to the fact that your muscles work harder when firstly stretched then worked to thier full motion especially for rom. Also any one who has gone to the toilet in china has probably done a full squat.. Mainly if you do full range strengthening exercises your flexibility will be heaps easier to naivaim or improve

[sanjuro_ronin]

no exercise can use all muscles. Especially both add or abductors. I was refering to flexibility. Power lifters pretty much touch the ground when lifting. Closer to the ground then horizontal. Examples of use. Getting into the back of a truck or any step about waist height, if contact is made with kick really close in. These are very obscure but it more comes down to the fact that your muscles work harder when firstly stretched then worked to thier full motion especially for rom. Also any one who has gone to the toilet in china has probably done a full squat.. Mainly if you do full range strengthening exercises your flexibility will be heaps easier to naivaim or improve

I think you are confusing butt-to the-heels, with butt to the ground.
Powerlifters rarely do a full squat seince they only have to break parallel, I think you are referring to Olympic lifters.

[Edmund]

no exercise can use all muscles. Especially both add or abductors. I was refering to flexibility. Power lifters pretty much touch the ground when lifting. Closer to the ground then horizontal. Examples of use. Getting into the back of a truck or any step about waist height, if contact is made with kick really close in. These are very obscure but it more comes down to the fact that your muscles work harder when firstly stretched then worked to thier full motion especially for rom. Also any one who has gone to the toilet in china has probably done a full squat.. Mainly if you do full range strengthening exercises your flexibility will be heaps easier to naivaim or improve

There is no abduction of hip joint for a squat. Therefore you can't say the exercise "will give the full range of motion".

[Hendrik]

Here you go Mr. P. Not perfect but it might make some sense.


呼吸自然勿緊張，如犯此錯誤，則全身緊張，力和氣就憋在身上，放不出去。
Breath naturally without tension. If you make this mistake then your whole body will tense, both strength (li/lik) and breath (qi/chi/hei) will be trapped in the body with no way out.


氣不能沉，沉者勁惰，氣即不能浮；浮者勁僵。
The breath (qi/chi/hei) must not sink, he who sinks the power (jin/ging) becomes idle. The breath (qi/chi/hei) must not float, he who floats the power (jin/ging) becomes stiff.


所以說要自然腹式深呼吸。氣貫周身，肌肉得溫養。
Therefore we say use natural deep abdominal breathing. Breath suffuses the entire body, the muscles warm up.


拳語曰：“用力則力死，用氣則氣滯。”體內的真氣得以轉變成真勁。
The fist sayings state: “Use strength the strength dies, use breath the breath obstructs”. The “real breath” (zhenqi/zun hei) in the body must be transformed into actual power (zhenjin/zun ging).



Thanks! Excellent!

[Yoshiyahu]

Define Hard Bow?

Define Soft Jin?


How does Weight training interfer with your WC training?

Also why can't you combined hard and soft training to give you well roundedness?

Does your Kyoshukin training bother your WC training?

What is Soft Jin Training give examples and also provide Hard Bow training in contrast???

Is your WC Soft or Hard? Is your Kyoshukin soft or hard?



Sure, according to you you certainly right.

however, according to the TCMA expert such as WXZ that is not the case.



呼吸自然勿紧张，如犯此错误，则全身紧张，力和气就憋在身上，放不出去。

气不能沉，沉者劲 惰，气即不能浮；浮者劲僵。

所以说要自然腹式深呼吸。气贯周身，肌肉得温养。

拳语曰：“用力则力死，用气则 气滞。”体内的真气得以转变成真劲。




BTW

one's training is either a hard bow or a soft jin cant be both.
doing both default to hard bow which soft jin never could be reached.


from your description above you are within the Hard Bow region and it doesnt matter you train in Kyokushin, WCK, Taiji, Yoga.....etc.

[Hendrik]

Define Hard Bow?

Define Soft Jin?


How does Weight training interfer with your WC training?

Also why can't you combined hard and soft training to give you well roundedness?

Does your Kyoshukin training bother your WC training?

What is Soft Jin Training give examples and also provide Hard Bow training in contrast???

Is your WC Soft or Hard? Is your Kyoshukin soft or hard?





......There are many martial arts.

Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don't go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.

The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques.

From the sentence "A force of four ounces deflects a thousand pounds"
we know that the technique is not accomplished with strength.

The spectacle of an old person defeating a group of young people,
how can it be due to swiftness?

Stand like a perfectly balanced scale and
move like a turning wheel.

Sinking to one side allows movement to flow;
being double-weighted is sluggish.

Anyone who has spent years of practice and still cannot neutralize,
and is always controlled by his opponent,
has not apprehended the fault of double-weightedness. ....

[Yoshiyahu]

Is your WC Soft or Hard? Is your Kyoshukin soft or hard?




......There are many martial arts.

Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don't go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.

The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques.

From the sentence "A force of four ounces deflects a thousand pounds"
we know that the technique is not accomplished with strength.

The spectacle of an old person defeating a group of young people,
how can it be due to swiftness?

Stand like a perfectly balanced scale and
move like a turning wheel.

Sinking to one side allows movement to flow;
being double-weighted is sluggish.

Anyone who has spent years of practice and still cannot neutralize,
and is always controlled by his opponent,
has not apprehended the fault of double-weightedness. ....

[chusauli]

A system is neither completely hard nor soft - it has elements of both...personal style can choose hard or soft in the moment.

Hendrik's poetry above is from the Tai Ji classics.

[Vajramusti]

What does the double weighting issue have to do with wing chun?. The stances and the structural realtionships are different.?

joy chaudhuri

[JPinAZ]

A system is neither completely hard nor soft - it has elements of both...personal style can choose hard or soft in the moment.

Hendrik's poetry above is from the Tai Ji classics.

But funny, he (Hendrik) never answered any of the questions - many of which have been asked several times. As always, he just quoted someone elses words... It's tough to answer personal quesions about one's art when they can't and don't use it..

[Hendrik]

What does the double weighting issue have to do with wing chun?. The stances and the structural realtionships are different.?

joy chaudhuri

Joy,

IMHO

"Double weighting " concept is not a Taiji/Wing Chun issue.

"Double weighting " in the ancient Chinese martial art classic means "dull-still"

IE if you look at the TaiJi symbol, which Yang there is Yin, Within Yin that is Yang. That is non "double weighting." because it is not "dull still" it is alive.

and in every part of the physical body as soon as there is a "dull-still", it is called "double weighting" in that part.

[-木叶-]

I wonder if anyone practice muay thai kicking to complement their Wing Chun?
I found that it is a good compliment for power training when training together with Wing Chun kicking. (I train muay thai kicking after my forms and weights
training, its a real leg power builder).

[Yoshiyahu]

I wonder if anyone practice muay thai kicking to complement their Wing Chun?
I found that it is a good compliment for power training when training together with Wing Chun kicking. (I train muay thai kicking after my forms and weights
training, its a real leg power builder).

Please share more detail...do you mean on a heavy bag?

[imperialtaichi]

like systema practicioners advocate?

Yes, and no.

The dead weight issue does not necessarily be limited to the fist or the fore arm; the entire body/centre of gravity/dantian, or just parts, can be utilized. Of course, when different body parts at different speed is used, with different amount of follow through, different effect is achieved.

Kind of like, dropping a bowling ball or your toes at a small height vs shooting your forearm with an air rifle. Different speed, different mass, different result.

[-木叶-]

Please share more detail...do you mean on a heavy bag?

I don't do the kicking on heavy bags yet. I do repetitions of kicks for
low, middle and upper sections. Afterwards i will do the Wing Chun front, side kicks, sweeps, left-right kicks. Then again repetitions of Muay Thai kicks.

[Hendrik]

I don't do the kicking on heavy bags yet. I do repetitions of kicks for
low, middle and upper sections. Afterwards i will do the Wing Chun front, side kicks, sweeps, left-right kicks. Then again repetitions of Muay Thai kicks.



Do you know that WCK doesnt have kick as how kick generally define?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you know that WCK doesnt have kick as how kick generally define?

No system is perfect.
:D

[Hendrik]

No system is perfect.
:D

Nothing to do with perfection. it all got to do with what is hammer is for and what is a wire cutter is for, miss using them is both in effective and disaster.

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you know that WCK doesnt have kick as how kick generally define?

what exactly do you mean?

[Hendrik]

what exactly do you mean?

I mean exactly what I post.

[t_niehoff]

I mean exactly what I post.

Hendrik, he was asking you to explain, to elaborate, etc. on what you wrote since he did not understand what you wrote. He is asking you to clarify. When you wrote:

"Do you know that WCK doesnt have kick as how kick generally define?"

You were unclear. How do you think a kick is "generally defined" [sic]. And how do you think that is different from a WCK kick?

Here's two "general definitions": to strike out with the foot or feet, and to strike with the foot.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, he was asking you to explain, to elaborate, etc. on what you wrote since he did not understand what you wrote. He is asking you to clarify. When you wrote:

"Do you know that WCK doesnt have kick as how kick generally define?"

You were unclear. How do you think a kick is "generally defined" [sic]. And how do you think that is different from a WCK kick?

Here's two "general definitions": to strike out with the foot or feet, and to strike with the foot.

ok

Great !

[-木叶-]

Do you know that WCK doesnt have kick as how kick generally define?

I used to think that too, but my sifu taught me Wing Chun kicking.
The way we attack the knees and shins and ankles, if thats not kicking whats
the proper word :)

[Hendrik]

I used to think that too, but my sifu taught me Wing Chun kicking.
The way we attack the knees and shins and ankles, if thats not kicking whats
the proper word :)




Wing Chun " kick "is a part of the movement flow not a " sole Kick " for kicking as in other art such as Kick boxing.

after 1970, hongkong WCK evolve in adding more and more Karate, MT type of kicks... as one can see side kick was added in some HK WCK form....


my 2 cents.

[Vajramusti]

FWIW I think that Hendrik is quite incorrect on this point...as far as Ip man's wing chun is involved .
It could be that he is limited by his knowledge of Yik Kam's wing chun.

For training and development there are kicks in Ip Man wing chun. They are not karate or kick boxing kicks and they include the notion of body unity and flow in application. In applying good chun one should not use kicks where footwork and hands can do their work. A missed or ineffective kick can leave a wc person badly exposed.

In his time Ip Man was a superb kicker and he taught kicks to many of those who studied with him personally.Possibly on the red boats they didn't use the kicks as much for obvious reasons. With aging Ip man used kicks less but he taught them. When younger he was quite a kicker. If you see Ip Ching's little book on an incident in HK with his father- Ip man effectively rear kicked a pickpocket who was trying to lift an expensive pen from his side pocket while IM was bending over at an establishment
to pick up a newspaper.He also used kicks when needed in his mainland interactions.
Hendrik's time marker 1970 is off- by then Ip man had retired from active public teaching.Basic kicking is there in Ip man's chum kiu and mok jong work and was there before 1970.

Wang, Yi Chuan and dachenquan involves dimensions that are apparently absent in many arts
but they dont have a monopoly on what is "internal". Good wing chun- not the average wing chun qill have good fusion of internal and external and cut through some of the expressions of
specially "northern" internal styles. In the 19th century there wasa lot of misplaced snobbery
in northern kung fu which created the misleading internal/external classification of Sun and others... labeling Nam Kuen as external...though some but not all of it is.

History is a tricky business specially with wing chun- too many twists and turns and variations-taiji has better historical markers but some of the Chen man Ching folks do not regard Chen style as being taichi!!!

As far as some other points-not from Hendrik---using MMA as the main barometer of what fighting is- misses much. Real fighting would be basically illegal at least in the US today.

My do paisa w apologies for bad key strokes


joy chaudhuri

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Joy,

A minor point, but the Red Boat Wing Chun I was taught has a separate curriculum for kicking techniques containing 8 or 9 different methods; deng - nailing kick, jeet - side/stop kick, chang - push kick forwards, chai - pinning leg etc etc.

In addition, my SNT contains a kicking section.

Suki

[Hendrik]

Joy,

You have a good point.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any striking motion with the foot is a kick, so every system has kicks.
Be them stomps or even "steps", if its a strike with the foot, any part of the foot, its kick.

[Yoshiyahu]

great resposnes Suki...impressive.

Joy I really enjoyed your response can you please elobarate on the following statement:


As far as some other points-not from Hendrik---using MMA as the main barometer of what fighting is- misses much. Real fighting would be basically illegal at least in the US today.


What is real fighting?

[Hendrik]

Any striking motion with the foot is a kick, so every system has kicks.
Be them stomps or even "steps", if its a strike with the foot, any part of the foot, its kick.





the TKD round horse kick is not Kyokushin round horse kick even they are both round horse kick. do you agree?



The Hung Gar front Kick is different then the Northen Tan Tui front kick.

as the northern chinese martial art says, " hands are doors rely on kick to strike."
Same front kick but this kick is not that kick.

while in general, the Southern major weapon is hand.

Same with WCK, WCK is not MT is not Karate...

[Yoshiyahu]

Explain the difference between a WCK front Kick and a Front kick from Kyokushin?


How are vectors,energy displacement, angle, projectory, alignment, structure and Chi displacement different????



the TKD round horse kick is not Kyokushin round horse kick even they are both round horse kick. do you agree?



The Hung Gar front Kick is different then the Northen Tan Tui front kick.

as the northern chinese martial art says, " hands are doors rely on kick to strike."
Same front kick but this kick is not that kick.

while in general, the Southern major weapon is hand.

Same with WCK, WCK is not MT is not Karate...

[AdrianK]

Chi displacement makes baby jesus cry :(

[Mr Punch]

What is real fighting?Oh, for ****s sake, not this crap again! Just go and have one will you?! :rolleyes: :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

the TKD round horse kick is not Kyokushin round horse kick even they are both round horse kick. do you agree?



The Hung Gar front Kick is different then the Northen Tan Tui front kick.

as the northern chinese martial art says, " hands are doors rely on kick to strike."
Same front kick but this kick is not that kick.

while in general, the Southern major weapon is hand.

Same with WCK, WCK is not MT is not Karate...

Thanks for making my point :D

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh, for ****s sake, not this crap again! Just go and have one will you?! :rolleyes: :D


Okay I agree Mr Punch what city are you in?

[grasshopper 2.0]

the TKD round horse kick is not Kyokushin round horse kick even they are both round horse kick. do you agree?



The Hung Gar front Kick is different then the Northen Tan Tui front kick.

as the northern chinese martial art says, " hands are doors rely on kick to strike."
Same front kick but this kick is not that kick.

while in general, the Southern major weapon is hand.

Same with WCK, WCK is not MT is not Karate...


can't say i agree - i would have to say that a respected WCK fighter's kick is like a respected MT fighter's kick is like a respected Karateka and so on.

When you're good at fighting, the fighters start to look (relatively) the same... It's when you're not good that things look different.

A kick is a kick - in terms of function. Function is what matters. Who cares how it looks.

[Yoshiyahu]

In some cases the way the kicks are used may be different. But when it comes to fight depending on the situtation you will have to do same things a southern stylist does if your a high kicker. Maybe the energies are different. In some aspects like the Muay thai uses more round houses and the karate guy uses more front kicks and the tae kwon do guy uses more axe kicks. But all have the same thing in their arsenal. One may have a stronger axe kick or round house because thats what his system specializes in. But its pretty much the same.

There is a round house,side,front,back,sweeps and instep kicks. Some high some low some mid height.

all eventually becoming the same in a fight.

[Liddel]

all eventually becoming the same in a fight.

This is not my experience.

The contact points energy flow and body mechanics are different even though they may appear to look the same in fighting. (only to a lamen)

The biggest differences my VT kicks have compared to those of sparring partners from other styles are - in hip and knee behaviour and most of all contact point.


Explain the difference between a WCK front Kick and a Front kick from Kyokushin?

For one my front kick has the toes off to the side not completely vertical, TKB are completly vert also.

Which is largly due to what part of the foot is contacting. Im more ball and its not a push but a whip..

The knee as a downstream effect is also lending forces in different ways as the knee is outside not on the center etc etc.

This affects the hip useage aswell.

Anyone with enough sparring experience should know this :o

DREW

[t_niehoff]

The biggest differences my VT kicks have compared to those of sparring partners from other styles are - in hip and knee behaviour and most of all contact point.


From my perspective, WCK's kicking method is not an outside method (like kickboxing) but applies when we are in sustained contact (in the clinch). The mechanics of WCK kicks are therefore different than those where we are not in contact.

[bennyvt]

kicks can be from close or long. Not to be able to bridge the gap but to slow them down so you can enter. We are closer as the knee normally stays bent to block anything that is coming. But its not only for in close. I like to throw a kick at boxers to get them thinking and out me the just arms idea. But normally has to be higher so they can see it or you just crack and they go 'what the' and just get pain. Only a sparing trick! Not fighting idea.

[Yoshiyahu]

From my perspective, WCK's kicking method is not an outside method (like kickboxing) but applies when we are in sustained contact (in the clinch). The mechanics of WCK kicks are therefore different than those where we are not in contact.

I find one can kick the WC way from the outside. But it is more effective inside. If your using WC energy. For instance the WC dummy trains for inside kicks.