to all 8 step students

[8stepmantis]

There must be a time that we all must come together and explore the system we are in. Even if we are tought under different sifus. It would be nice to have a forum to discuss our system together without any arguments. Note that other systems do view our system as **** and it is because of this bull**** fighting. If i where to see a 8 step student in trouble reguardless from my school or not I will be there for them. We are told that we are all one and that is how I see and feel. If you enter this discussion, then let it be a positive one. The way the world is going and how my life is heading I really do need to hear positive things especially about out system. If we need to compare then do so but in a positive and respectable manner. Thank you all...

[Arod1972]

I am with you on this, I will always be down for my 8 step mantis brothers even though i am no longer training under that system with them. I learned alot from them and miss their conpanionship.

One who has two roots becomes a stronger tree.

[ChitownMantis]

(Bowing In)
Has you style been put thru alot of crap?? Is it because this thing with Sifu Sun?? If so that is a shame. From what I have been reading there have been words back and forth about that.

What ever the style, one should be conpeled to help someone in need. I Studied 7 star, that does not mean that if you study 8step I would not help you. Or has that been the case? Please clue me in. Thank you.

(Bowing Out)

"Even if you study, research, or practice daliy. In Martial Arts, we should all be family. As we should all be children of GOD."

[robertwilliam]

I think that's great idea - I actually was thinking the same thing last week after seeing the Master Wei 8mm tape.Ya know , I'm thinking ,"Well at least we all agree that master Wei was the 3rd generation inheritor" Nobody can deny Master Wei, and that we all came from him - it's a fact that is universaly acknowledged.There are many battles being waged about the 4th generation inheritor though.I think we need to have one or two topics per week posted, and have everybody join in (while totally ignoring trolls) - this may end up taking years because of the complexity of 8 step, but it would be somewhere that one could go to and be sure of what they are practicing.

Topic 1 - week ending 20APRIL01

I'll start this weeks - Body coordination one - not the application, but the showing - list step by step

Topic 2 - rocking pushups with palms flat on the ground

See how easy that is? We can start with basics, and work our way up -

[Arod1972]

horse, bow, tiger, mantis, crossing-leg, 50/50, falling, and single-leg. there done hee heehe
joking

One who has two roots becomes a stronger tree.

[robertwilliam]

To continue along my last post ... It would be a good idea, the 20? or 30? 8 step students that regularly contribute to this webpage can contribute opinions, and try to exhaust options of that given week's topic.It would just make sense to begin at the begining and progress from there.It would be interesting and informative to see what a couple of dozen people have to say about a given technique or training method.8 step seems to have this "secret society" shroud around it, and it is not like a more wide spread system such as 7 star, where there exist multitudes of schools, books, tapes and information.It will be interesting seeing what the majority says about a given technique.Of course next week's logical post would probally be body coordination #2, and rocking pushups on the five finger tips? Internal, qi gung , tai chi and weapons could be explored down the line, but I'll be the first to admit that I don't have alot of knowlege in those areas.

[xygie]

Eliminate the threat of law suite, and you eliminate the source of conflict. That is the first step toward peace and unity. All sides save face.

We can spend our money fighting in court, or we can use it to preserve the 8 Step system.

I hear there are 5 great 8 Step schools in Western N.Y. Buffalo area?

Your move...

[robertwilliam]

Well...I don't know about 5 schools, I think there are two left over - Sifu George's, and Sifu Mike's - and I don't even know if Sifu George is affiliated with Master Sun any longer.There was three at one time: Mike's (Haley),George L , and Steve Spoth - Sifu Steve is promoting Krav Maga sp?, and I don't think he is associated with Master Sun either - so as far as I know, last I checked, there is just Sifu Mike Haley left over here in the Tonawanda area.
I don't know what the other sifu of Master Wei are planning, but, it has been my own personal thought that Master Sun will probally sit back and laugh at all this crap until the logical conclusion, and start teaching 8 step to some 5 year old boy in 20 years from now, and pass the system down then.From what I've seen and heard, the dream of having a school in each of the 50 states of the union is a long way off for Master Sun - because of all the a**hol#'# that have betrayed his trust over the years.I smelled something fishy in 1994 when I began - and you know what it is? It is power hungry egotistical people that ruined the system and started this lawsuit - I have no knowlege of this lawsuit other than what I heard on the web here.What I think it is , is a 20 - 30 year experiment by master Sun to see what student / schools lasted the test of time -and then the real teaching and passing down of knowlege will begin.

[8stepsifu]

Robert you hit the nail on the head. It was a 20 year experiment. I know I'm on the right path. Wanna know what Master Sun's attitude is? It's like this, "Have fun, if you want to go elsewhere, have a great time."

He's doing exaclty what Master Wei did, but he's more honest about his approach. Master Wei would say, "You know it all, now be content and don't bother me" Master Sun will let up peak every now and then at how much we (at my level) truly don't know or are capable of understanding. It may be a 20 year haul, but I know that I'll be getting more info over that time that I could anywhere else.

What all these former students are mad about goes back to an old chinese tale

A zookeeper gave his monkeys 2 apples in the morning and 3 at night, but the monkeys were mad. Then the man gave them 3 in the morning and 2 at night and the monkeys were happy.

So what difference does it make if (in the prestandardized past/traditonally) he waited a while and then gave it all. Or like now as it's gradually divied out over time. Those without forsight left, and those with slightly more intelligence stayed around and will get everything.

Do you think that ancient shaolin is the only institution to test a students intelligence and character before letting them in on the latent aspect of a system? No, there are just different methods to doing it. Shaolin did this to protect their reputation and integrity. They should have copywrited it....just look at shaolin do.

As for the lawsuit, I have nothing to do with that, but I know why it has to be done. Don't take it personally, the copywrite was set a long time ago before you even knew what 8 step was. Without checks and balances we will get *******ized, pulled apart and destroyed as a system. It actually has more to do with the fact that if you can use our name, then every crappy mcdojo on earth can also use our name and we'll go the way of Shaolin karate or shaolin do. We've got something great and we can't afford it to get mixed up with crap. It's really not about the 3-5 folks in the country who know some 8 step from Master Wei or former students of Master Sun's. Thats not big enough to care about. It's only important to protect us from becoming one of chung moo do's 9 ****ty styles. It's about protecting the integrity of the system.

don't worry be happy

[robertwilliam]

Ok then ... body coordination 1 - is anybody into discussing the 1 or 2 tech/ training methods per week that has been described on the posts of this topic or no?

[8stepmantis]

I am glad to see so kind of progress. We must understand one thing. That we are "ONE" no matter who is teaching the system. To compare and be able to view master Wei is a real treat for us all. Remember, outside students or inside students we all have a lot to learn and no one should have the attitude of being better than the other. I would love to see another class and see how 8 step is practiced. I will never critize nor would I put them down. I would join in and just learn. I have kids and the older I get I still am learning even if they are just 3 years old. Sometimes we need to sit back and look at everything and ask ourselves: "I'm I happy with my life"? and if so then keep going and enjoy no matter what others might say. To all my brothers
"Seize the day and live life to the fullest"

[xygie]

Then why is James Sun directing his attack at former students of Grandmaster Wei who use the 8 Step name...And even against his own students who have certificates from James Sun authorizing them to teach 8 Step and no longer desire to be part of his organization?

In the past James Sun has threatened to sue former students of Wei Xiao Tang on at least 3 occasions that we know of in Texas and California. Their pictures are in Wei's books. Now Sun is threatening to sue a former disciple of his who is currently learning from 8 Step Senior Disciple, Master Lin Chun Fu.

First of all, 8 Step Praying Mantis is a style of kung fu...The name has been around long before James Sun ever decided to register it as the name of his business. His "right" to use the name can be legally challanged. Any wrongful attempt to enforce a trademark is viewed as "malicious persecution".

If James Sun feels he is "Sole Inheritor" of 8 Step, he has the burden of proof...And will have to provide legal documentationof his claim which, until now, has never been contested.

There are many legitamite 8 Step teachers in Taiwan also...If you don't believe it, go there. We know of someone who is there right now studying with Master Wang Jia Lang, also a student of Wei Xiao Tang.

You tell me...How does threatening to sue legitamite 8 Step teachers benefit the system. People like Master Lin Chun Fu have studied 8 Step from Wei since before James Sun was even born.

Eliminate the threat of law suit against legitamite 8 Step sifus, and you eliminate the source of conflict. It is the necessary first step toward peaceful coexistence and harmony amoung 8 Step practitioners around the world.

"Do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bed?"

[8stepsifu]

How do Master Weis public students structure teaching? Ten Roads Tan Tui (10 body coordination) I know 8ths arent there, and they only have the first few sets, but what training drill are the same from Grandmaster Sun's teaching methods and other former students of Master Wei?

Do they do the Tai Chi? Iron body, Iron palm.

Young sparrow set (even though it's not an 8step set)

Do they teach throwing or Joint locks?

I know they teach the steping up front, but do they teach you how it applies in conjunction with the character princibles and applications? Do they teach fighting? Are all the stances and strikes the same? Do they have a standardized way of presenting the material or is it helter skelter?

just curious

don't worry be happy

[6hmantis]

SOme of the best Iron Palm I have ever seen is one of your ex-8 step students John Newberry Check out his break at www.prayingmantiskungfu.com (http://www.prayingmantiskungfu.com) and go to photos. Im good friends with him and I have seen him set up two block no spacers, slap the top and break the bottom. He learned from some guy in Delaware. Love ya :cool:

[8stepsifu]

but that doesn't really answer my question.

don't worry be happy

[robertwilliam]

Yes, 8 stepsifu - that's the way I was taught - and actually, you mentioned something about the stepping, and footwork - you know this already, but most of it is in the first 4 levels - I used to think that the begining levels had some bogus stuff like the kicking combinations, and even the ten body coordinations, but it's like an onion, you just keep on pealing back layers and finding things.I'm glad that my sifu had an advanced class going because we touched on many things that linked where we were then and the high gold levels and beyond.Other shi# I figured out was from observing Ba Gua ,and Hsing Yi stuff.

[8stepsifu]

for getting people coordinated enough to do kung fu. Also it you do them with actuall springing legs, they develop power. They are actually traditional to 8 step and not new on the scene.

They are the Shi Lu Tan Tui or ten roads tan tui.

The even older name is lo han tan tui.

Kicking combos are probably new.


also there are lots of footworks and even some low mantis within gold mantis 1-5, it's just a matter of recognising it. There are loads and loads of cool stuff in the gold mantis + applications. I learn a new aspect to 8 Step every time I teach them.

The application as of standardization have a wide mixture of finishing throws and hand changes. It's a tremendous amount of information, trouble is, most people want to blow past it to get to the "secrets" when lots of the "secrets" are right in front of them. I recently realized this and I've been just staring at the wealth of information in my note books

don't worry be happy

[6hmantis]

Hey andy,
Why dont you just ask sun to prove once and forall he is who he says he is. If he is Grandmaster he should have pics or sort. If it was a public ceremony and people where there than you should have some names. Please dont take this the wrong way, if I am wrong I will formally apologize. There is too much conflicting stories on this subject, let put it to rest.
LOVE YA :D

[hymenopus_coronadus]

Pi Si... All James Sun has to do is post disciple certificates from Grandmaster Wei or even a traditional picture of Wei and him together.

Also there is no such thing as a "Sole Inheritor" of a kung fu style...Just recognized masters who have trained longer.

[xygie]

The 8 STEP PRAYING MANTIS KUNG FU ACADEMY OF TAIPEI in Taiwan, Master Zuo Xian Fu. Master Zuo lived with Grandmaster Wei 5 years before died.

[8stepsifu]

http://www.choyleefut.com.au/sifu.asp

Choy li fut and 8 step are two of the last complete systems left, both with generation inheritors.

don't worry be happy

[xygie]

I don't think James is Grandmaster Wei's "son". If he is, he should have a few pictures of himself with "dad". ;)

[8stepsifu]

you dip****, no one said he was his son, he is the sole inheritor, the keeper of the system. The same organizational structure minus the nepotism


Oh god, I got sucked into this **** thing again.


I knew about that guy in Taiwan, so what? Master Sun knows that guy. What exactly is your point. If you want to learn form him then go, if you want to learn from someone who has the whole picture, then...your out of luck :p

don't worry be happy

[6hmantis]

Andy,
Did you happen to find any old pics of Master Wei and James Sun. Or, any names of the people who where at the ceremony? Thanks

[pain_junkie]

Okay, I've got a quick question about body coordinations(sp?)? This goes out to anyone in 8 step, but especially rookies. Do you guys like to analyze the body coordinations? I've found that sometimes it helps me to focus on what they do. I realize that you woulnd't use the EXACT movements in a reality situation, but that they represent movements and applications you could use. So I find it helps me to think about their applications. To say to yourself "okay, so what exactly is going on in this situation" instead of just moving from one end of the school to the other doing some punches and kicks. Anybody else find this helpful

[on-jer]

8 Step, as taught by master Wei, consists primarily of:

8 postures, 8 moving steps, 8 kicks, 8 fists. The Small Box forms - 7 Hands, Little Water-wheel, Le Pe, Big Water-wheel and the 6 chapters. 7 Hands, Le Pe and the 6 Chapters each have two-man forms associated with them. This format is outlined in his books.

Master Wei did have a form of Tai-Chi. He was also quite adept with the 3-section-staff.

Master Wei was an admirer of Master Chang's Shuai-Chiao and said, "If one could learn Tong Long and Shuai-Chiao, it would be like teaching a tiger to fly.

In our class, we learn Tai-Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing-I, Tong Long, Chin-Na and Shuai-Chiao.

None of Master Wei's teaching was "filler", nor was there any public vs. private teaching.

Also - FYI - Master Wei was not any kind of doctor - he worked in the cafeteria in the General High School.

[8stepsifu]

yes the body coordinations have applications and they are very obvious, most of the body coordinations come strait out of the sets.

Again one of Master Wei's public students says that Master Wei knew far less than he did. Funny how that works.

Of course he wouldn't tell his public students that they were public students. Why would he, to give them greedy ambitions??

Admirer of Shuai Chiao? Of course he was, he knew it. In that video clip he did a couple of throwing long forms in the set. The application to those forms ends in a throw, if you actually do that long form you understand that it trains the same body dynamics as throwing. It looks just like a shuai chiao throwing long form. Wow what a coincidence.

Why am I trying to convince you......this is why there was a public face in the first place. To keep you in the dark.

You are a student, you need to look at it from a teachers perspective. If a student demands an application to a set, you show them the most karate application that you can. Which BTW involve no throwing.

His so called admiration was a big grandfatherly hint for his public students to make their public stuff that much more effective. He showed hand techniques and told them to learn throwing. 8 Step throwing is specialized and incorporated into the hand techniques. Not two seperate things. Thats what was hidden.

No throwing?, only 3 three sets?, whats next? Are you gonna say that their are only 6 joint locks instead of 108? Are there only 3 kicks? :rolleyes:

don't worry be happy

[pain_junkie]

Yes, I realize that they are relatively obvious. I was just wondering if it helps anyone else remember and use them? When you were learning body cordinations for the first time, did you just memorize the moves or did it help you to think of the applications. I was in Taekwando for four years and they never encouraged us to look for/at applications. It was basically just "here, do this move...then this..then this.. Okay, here's a red belt". I quit when I was 11 because I realized I would never get anything out of it. The black belts had beer guts, the instructor didn't give a crap, etc...

[xygie]

They didn't even exist before 1995. And, after James made them up...they changed about 10 times and were still being "standardized" 6 years later, just like the sets and all the other material he teaches.

How do you get 3 sets out of On Jer's post...He notes 10 regular sets and 8 two man sets. You obviously know nothing about the 6 Chapter Sets. There are video tapes of Master Wei performing them. I have seen some of the footage. They are a lot more intricate and complex than the standard 4 Small Box Sets you are familiar with.

If you want to talk about "filler", just look at the worthless "lead-ins" you guys do for your throws and joint locks. Ask Kevin who made them up. Original to the system... I don't think so.

And, finally...I guess we are just going to have to let a judge decide if James was a "private" student. ;)

[8stepsifu]

Traditionally they were called Lo Han Tan Tui and then Shi Lu tan Tui or 10 roads body coordinations. Their have been changes because they are a tool for teaching. He is the Grandmaster and can make those changes. It is his system.

Yes you are incouraged to look at applications. I personally make sure that my students are thinking about the art rather than just swallowing it. I encourage people to as "why?" I ask "why" myself.

Yes Sifu Kevin did come up with some of the prestandadized lead ins. They worked. Now the lead in are a lot different and diverse. And it really doesn't matter, they are examples of theories and princibles. All of the applications are 8 step applications, they were just different. Now because of concrete thinkers such as yourself. Its not about the packaging, it's about the product.

This is not a uniquely chinese thing. It is the same as the chocolate guilds in france or the German Masons or any other artistic craft. They are secretive, closed off and ensure quality that is associated with the NAME. The successor of the chocolate factory may change the packaging, but the recipe is the same. You're nit picking about the packaging, so you've gone off to pack some fudge instead. Thats your choice.

If it comes to court then Master Sun will actually have a reason to pull out the pictures and documentation. He's not doing it for a web forum.

face it....as loud as you shout, your still not that special

don't worry be happy

[xygie]

Constantly changing the material taught and forcing the students to pay to relearn it, is like making a student walk the wrong way on a moving sidewalk in an airport.

[8stepsifu]

a thing of the past my friend, now with standadization and a clear and structured curriculum, the escalator is moving in the right direction.

You got the brunt of the confusion, I got a little and my students will have zero.

don't worry be happy

[xygie]

Good...Now you can call it Shyun style and leave the legitamite 8 Step disciples alone.

[EARTH DRAGON]

ive been a reader of this forum for a short while now and i am disgusted with the legitamacy aspect that everyone is talking about i lived in master sun school for quite some before i earned my shifu degree and all i can say is his knowledge whether is it legal or not goes way beyond the means of any of our training i met him in 1990 ive been in the system for almost 7 years and all i have to say is that any amount of our little time a kung fu practioners cannot compare to the level of knowledge that man has we should put arguments aside and just train for we are lucky to have any knowledge at all of such a great system and i thank him for it !!!!!!

[EARTH DRAGON]

ive been a reader of this forum for a short while now and i am disgusted with the legitamacy aspect that everyone is talking about i lived in master sun school for quite some before i earned my shifu degree and all i can say is his knowledge whether is it legal or not goes way beyond the means of any of our training i met him in 1990 ive been in the system for almost 7 years and all i have to say is that any amount of our little time a kung fu practioners cannot compare to the level of knowledge that man has we should put arguments aside and just train for we are lucky to have any knowledge at all of such a great system and i thank him for it !!!!!!

[EARTH DRAGON]

8 STEP SIFU IF I MAY I WOULD LIKE TO TRY TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION FIRST OFF THE CHARACTER PRINCIPLES ARE JUST THAT "PRINCIPLES" LIKE THE CARDINAL POINTS IF YOU WILL THEY ARE STATAGIES OR THEORIES USED IN THE PRAYING MANTIS SYSTEMS LOCKING, LINKING, STICKING, TRAPING ETC. THE ARE NOT SECERT KNOWLEDGE THE HAVE BEEN PRINTED IN MANY MANTIS BOOKS AND TOLD PUBLICLY I AM NOT SURE WHAT THE DEPTH OF LEARNING IS WITH OTHER TEACHERS HOWEVER THE STRUCTURE OF THE WAY DIFFERNT SYSTEMS ARE LAYED OUT IS EITHER HERE NOR THERE BUT THE ONE TRUE GOAL IS TO BETTER THY SELF THROUGH DICIPLINE AND HARD WORK GREATNESS COMES FROM PEFECTING THE ONE TECNIQUE THAT WILL MAKE YOU BETTER NOT THE AMOUNT OF TECNIQUE YOU KNOW!!! A GREAT MAN ONCE TOLD ME ONE BLOCK ONE HIT IS ALL ONE NEEDS TO BEFEND HIMSELF EVERYTHING THING ELSE IS FOR OUR EGO

[EARTH DRAGON]

8 STEP SIFU IF I MAY I WOULD LIKE TO TRY TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION FIRST OFF THE CHARACTER PRINCIPLES ARE JUST THAT "PRINCIPLES" LIKE THE CARDINAL POINTS IF YOU WILL THEY ARE STATAGIES OR THEORIES USED IN THE PRAYING MANTIS SYSTEMS LOCKING, LINKING, STICKING, TRAPING ETC. THE ARE NOT SECERT KNOWLEDGE THE HAVE BEEN PRINTED IN MANY MANTIS BOOKS AND TOLD PUBLICLY I AM NOT SURE WHAT THE DEPTH OF LEARNING IS WITH OTHER TEACHERS HOWEVER THE STRUCTURE OF THE WAY DIFFERNT SYSTEMS ARE LAYED OUT IS EITHER HERE NOR THERE BUT THE ONE TRUE GOAL IS TO BETTER THY SELF THROUGH DICIPLINE AND HARD WORK GREATNESS COMES FROM PEFECTING THE ONE TECNIQUE THAT WILL MAKE YOU BETTER NOT THE AMOUNT OF TECNIQUE YOU KNOW!!! A GREAT MAN ONCE TOLD ME ONE BLOCK ONE HIT IS ALL ONE NEEDS TO BEFEND HIMSELF EVERYTHING THING ELSE IS FOR OUR EGO

[EARTH DRAGON]

SORRY ABOUT THE DOUBLES DONT KNOW HOW THIS THING WORKS MY APLOGIES

[8stepsifu]

too true...however, I don't think its only for our egos. I like the swirling, the mental ingenuity, the chess game going from one technique to the next. My Sifu, whom you probably know pretty well spars with me and its counter and reversal and more like tai chi pushing hands as we trap and throw each other all accross the room. He's more rooted so he uproots me little by little and I go flying. I love the intellectual side of it. I also like fighitng. I like the process of it more than the winning I like good counters and recounters. Its probably one of the best things on earth. That and surfing.

There really wasn't anything big on here. I was curious as to who those guys were and who was behind them so I egged them on until they revealed it.

Earth Dragon....Do you currently teach? If you do, I'll see you at the next Sifu camp. The last one was awesome. We learned counters and stuff thats actually a substyle. It really stretched my brain to the seems. I can't wait for the next one. Were also having special medical meeting to learn acupuncture and herbology. Life is good. Just so you know, everything is standarized and final, so all the BS of sorting through whose applications are "right" is a thing of the past. The Sifu grades are also standardized, so it's clear sailing from here on out.


Take the world lightly, and your spirit will not be burdened. Consider everything minor, and your mind will not be confused. Regard death and life as equal, and your heart will not be afraid.

[EARTH DRAGON]

YES I STILL TEACH, PLEASE CHECK OUT MY WEB SITE AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK SOME REALLY COOL PHOTOS TOO www.kungfuusa.net (http://www.kungfuusa.net) ...........THERE IS A NEW FORUM THERE ALSO TO FLUSH OUT SOME OF THE NEGITIVE PEOPLE ON THIS ONE SO PLEASE FEEL FREE TO POST A TOPIC AND KEEP THE DREAM ALIVE THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME

http://www.kungfuUSA.net