Significance of Baisi Ceremony in Hung Ga

[bamboozled]

What is the significance of the baisi ceremony today? Is it purely symbolic? If a student performs the baisi ceremony, what are the obligations of the student to the sifu and vice versa?

Thanks.

[David Jamieson]

you are a disciple when you do this.

you basically are acknowledging your sifu as your father and teacher fully, and you are now honour bound to do what is asked and even demanded of you.

it is also a good indication that the disciple will be taught the entire system and be expected to carry it forward to the next generations.

...in a nutshell.

I don't actually think much of that kind of honour exists among kungfu students anymore. Life isn't hard enough here to give it the kind of relevance it once had.

[bamboozled]

What does the actual baisi ceremony entail?

[David Jamieson]

What does the actual baisi ceremony entail?

it is a ritual whereby you kneel before your master, swear an oath, drink some tea on it and you receive your red book.

Doesn't take long, oaths vary depending on the sifu, but mostly it is a show of obedience and supplication to the teacher and the teachings.

[TenTigers]

it is not obedience and supplication, it is a pledge of loyalty between the Sifu and the Disciple.
This means mutual loyalty.
The Disciple pledges to train hard, learn everything the Sifu teaches him, and maintain the integrity of the system.
The Sifu in turn, pledges to teach his disciple to the best of his ability and not leave anything out or hold back techniques.

(This last part has been debated and sometimes currupted and bent by some Sifus, thus allowing them to differentiate between disciples and heirs, and in some cases, even have levels of disciples-each with their own separate bai-si fee)

[SiMui]

What's the red book?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

The record of your Bai Si.

Technically, your only evidence of the event. Obviously now, there is photo and video as well. The red book doesn't mean as much as it did at one point I guess.

[SteveLau]

:) Well said, TenTigers.

Personally, I think the Baisi ceremony is kind of outdated. In comparison to the ceremony of marriage, the relation between the sifu and disciple is more important than the ceremony itself. We can have good relationship and mutual loyalty even without people going through the Baisi ceremony.




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[TenTigers]

There are some bonds between teacher and student that are stronger than performing a formal ceremony.

one of my teachers simply says,"Tung Do Jung Yan." Two people walking the same path together-kindered spirits, so to speak. He's in his seventies. He simply took me in, and teaches me and treats me as family, kind of like an Uncle.

My SPM teacher is one of my closest friends. He teaches out of friendship, and asks only that I practice. He holds nothing back, as he feels he is still on this journey as well.

[David Jamieson]

it is not obedience and supplication, it is a pledge of loyalty between the Sifu and the Disciple.
This means mutual loyalty.
The Disciple pledges to train hard, learn everything the Sifu teaches him, and maintain the integrity of the system.
The Sifu in turn, pledges to teach his disciple to the best of his ability and not leave anything out or hold back techniques.

(This last part has been debated and sometimes currupted and bent by some Sifus, thus allowing them to differentiate between disciples and heirs, and in some cases, even have levels of disciples-each with their own separate bai-si fee)

You're splitting hairs. :p

loyalty demands obedience and supplication.
don't take it as a negative, merely as a real effect of the riggings and doings of it.
How can you be loyal and disobedient? You cannot.
How can you be loyal to someone who you do not defer to?
You cannot.

Like I said, don't take it negatively. Of course it is mutual, but if obedience and supplication is not part and parcel, why kneel? why bow? why show such deference to someone who is mutual?
It's not a peerage, is it master then disciple and not the other way round.
It's a hierarchy, no getting around it.

It's not bad. It's kind of a necessary mechanism for full disclosure and initiation into esoteric rites and practices such as they are in kungfu societies of a nature that involves these rituals.

[bamboozled]

Does the relationship extend beyond the kwoon or only in the context of kung fu? Would you consider it a "good" or "bad" thing (whatever that means)?

IMHO it would be quite an honor to be asked to baisi. I understand from the student's perspective - the opportunity to learn the full system. But from the sifu's perspective - why ?

[eomonroe00]

from a sifu's perspective you have one more student who promises to hold the system and one day pass it on so the system stays in tact and does not die out, today many practice the arts to get a workout, while there is nothing wrong with this, no sifu wants his system to end with him, and so you need committed students who truly love the art,

[bamboozled]

Man, am I ever glad you said that. I would have been pretty disappointed and disillusioned if someone said "...so he can get you to wash his car every week...and pick up his laundry...and pay his bills....":)

[TenTigers]

Man, am I ever glad you said that. I would have been pretty disappointed and disillusioned if someone said "...so he can get you to wash his car every week...and pick up his laundry...and pay his bills....":)
yeah, dont think that doesn't happen.

[David Jamieson]

Does the relationship extend beyond the kwoon or only in the context of kung fu? Would you consider it a "good" or "bad" thing (whatever that means)?

IMHO it would be quite an honor to be asked to baisi. I understand from the student's perspective - the opportunity to learn the full system. But from the sifu's perspective - why ?

Yes the relationship extends outside of the kwoon.
A discipleship goes beyond mere martial arts lessons.

If all you are getting is martial arts lessons, then it seems rather absurd to baisi.

You can get martial training without any of that. It is the other material that is of equal importance.

[mawali]

It seems that the more obscure the art in application, the more important baisi is despite the outdated symbolism. Shuaijiao, xingyi, lohan (some), and Zhaquan amongst other appear to have less baisi than others.
I am not saying they don't, but the ceremony itself is less of ceremony and more on actual understanding and actual usage/utility than others that rely on baisi to pass on the art's historical record.

Even arts that rely on baisi like wingchun, it seems there is more stuff that obscures its historical record than clarifies it!

[David Jamieson]

It seems that the more obscure the art in application, the more important baisi is despite the outdated symbolism. Shuaijiao, xingyi, lohan (some), and Zhaquan amongst other appear to have less baisi than others.
I am not saying they don't, but the ceremony itself is less of ceremony and more on actual understanding and actual usage/utility than others that rely on baisi to pass on the art's historical record.

Even arts that rely on baisi like wingchun, it seems there is more stuff that obscures its historical record than clarifies it!

There is also the twisting of it and the perversion of the idea that occurs.
This is not uncommon either. Especially these days.

[Tensei85]

Question:

My opinion of a Bai Si is that it is a lifetime commitment inless in certain cases you un- bai si (lol)
So given a lifetime commitment between a tu di & his shifu then one should not bai si to or at the same time be bai si to another shifu? Would you say that's correct? David J, 10 T or anyone else.

I know certain ceremonies differ with different pre- qualifications as well but overall I think its shows sincerity on the tu di's part atleast.

Thanks,

[David Jamieson]

Question:

My opinion of a Bai Si is that it is a lifetime commitment inless in certain cases you un- bai si (lol)
So given a lifetime commitment between a tu di & his shifu then one should not bai si to or at the same time be bai si to another shifu? Would you say that's correct? David J, 10 T or anyone else.

I know certain ceremonies differ with different pre- qualifications as well but overall I think its shows sincerity on the tu di's part atleast.

Thanks,

Unless your sifu has died, I think it would be an insult to him if you gave your discipleship to someone else.

[Tensei85]

Thanks David J,

That was my opinion as well.

[jdhowland]

...it is a pledge of loyalty between the Sifu and the Disciple.
This means mutual loyalty.
The Disciple pledges to train hard, learn everything the Sifu teaches him, and maintain the integrity of the system.
The Sifu in turn, pledges to teach his disciple to the best of his ability and not leave anything out or hold back techniques.

That this was the essence of bai si is confirmed by the fact that it exists also in Japan for the same purpose. The institution there is called oku-iri, and is an agreement between both parties that the entire system will be passed on. Instead of red books, scrolls known as mokuroku are presented at various stages of the student's progress.

Apprenticeships in western countries were somewhat similar but took a more pecuniary approach as mercantilism developed. For example, in the 18th century, a master of a trade might have to swear to certain agreements before a magistrate to confirm an apprentice's legal status. The master might agree to provide the novice with food, clothing, lodging, drink, reasonable work hours, and finally, a skilled trade that could be entered independently once journeyman status was attained. Often, a new suit of clothes and an amount of money were specified to be given the apprentice at the end of his term. The master and apprentice (or his sponsor) would be given copies of the agreement and any breech of terms could be alleviated through legal processes.

My take from this is that bai si is a legal procedure, fully integrated into society and is a public concern, not a clandestine ritual.

But what does it become when the teacher and student are from different cultures or social groups?

jd

[TenTigers]

you don't usually bai-si to more than one Sifu. However, there are different disciplines. You may be a disciple of a Sifu in Hung-Ga, and then a disciple of a Taoist Sifu in a Noi Gung/Sun Gung art, or Fung-Soi, or painting.
(this is really splitting hairs) But Bai-Si to more than one Gung-Fu Sifu is pretty much unheard of-although for a fee, many Sifus will bai-see a gwailo, take a picture, etc.

The bottom line is, the value of the bai-see is soley based on whatever value the Sifu and to-dai place on it. It is a personla thing, and the stipulations are not etched in stone. Some Sifus may have a very open policy, others more stringent.

[David Jamieson]

you don't usually bai-si to more than one Sifu. However, there are different disciplines. You may be a disciple of a Sifu in Hung-Ga, and then a disciple of a Taoist Sifu in a Noi Gung/Sun Gung art, or Fung-Soi, or painting.
(this is really splitting hairs) But Bai-Si to more than one Gung-Fu Sifu is pretty much unheard of-although for a fee, many Sifus will bai-see a gwailo, take a picture, etc.

The bottom line is, the value of the bai-see is soley based on whatever value the Sifu and to-dai place on it. It is a personla thing, and the stipulations are not etched in stone. Some Sifus may have a very open policy, others more stringent.

^QFT

...as for the journeyman apprenticeships, those exist today. They are legally binding and the legality is expressed in whether or not you are allowed to work as a journeyman in your technical field because you must be certified to do just that. You pay the technical vocational school you attend to be properly educated in all associated technologies and required skills.

with kungfu, it's a whole different thing. these days, plenty of murky about it. especially in western terms. Cultural relativity and context is lost in a lot of cases.

[bamboozled]

If you were a Hung Ga sifu and baisi is in your family's tradition, what would be the most important attributes in a student that you look for if you were considering him as a baisi disciple?

[David Jamieson]

If you were a Hung Ga sifu and baisi is in your family's tradition, what would be the most important attributes in a student that you look for if you were considering him as a baisi disciple?

This is an interesting question because it seeks the criteria that would be applied to the event and it's subsequent meaning.

So, hypothetically speaking:

1) Ability through diligence - a demonstrative understanding of the skills taught
2) Trustworthiness in the person towards myself and others
3) Courage in the person to be their own person and to make good choices
4) The person wants to actively participate in the fostering and cultivation of kungfu in others, specifically his or her younger classmates.

that would be the principle foundations of my own criteria for taking someone in.
Mind you, I won't be taking disciples. lol. I don't have anything to offer really that would warrant that. :)

[TenTigers]

This is an interesting question because it seeks the criteria that would be applied to the event and it's subsequent meaning.

So, hypothetically speaking:

1) Ability through diligence - a demonstrative understanding of the skills taught
2) Trustworthiness in the person towards myself and others
3) Courage in the person to be their own person and to make good choices
4) The person wants to actively participate in the fostering and cultivation of kungfu in others, specifically his or her younger classmates.

that would be the principle foundations of my own criteria for taking someone in.
Mind you, I won't be taking disciples. lol. I don't have anything to offer really that would warrant that. :)

There is an expression,"Yun Yee Do Duk" Compassion, Loyalty, and the path of virtue and righteousness, which I believe David has described.

Personally, I am not a very good judge of character in others. I am nieve and altruistic.
"A student will search three years for a Sifu. A Sifu will test his student for ten years." is not what alot of people think it means.
Look at a friendship, a romantic relationship, marraige, etc. You think you know someone, but five, ten years later, you see their true colors, and who they really are at their best, as well as at their worst. Friendships split, marraiges end up in divorce.
Why should people ridcule a Sifu's right to get to know his potential heir(s)?
It is not dangling a carrott. It is being prudent.

[SteveLau]

My opinion of a Bai Si is that it is a lifetime commitment inless in certain cases you un- bai si (lol). So given a lifetime commitment between a tu di & his shifu then one should not bai si to or at the same time be bai si to another shifu?

by Tensei85


That hits the nail right on. IMHO, significance of Baisi Ceremony in Hung Ga is not much different from that in other MA schools. But what my first post on the topic still rings true. Without Baisi, a disciple can still eventually make a lifetime commitment to the school, the art. Or does making it official helps?



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[bamboozled]

Are there Hung Ga forms/techniques/knowledge that are usually reserved for a student who had carried out the baisi ceremony?

[TenTigers]

depending on the individual Sifu, there might be specific ch'i-gung, iron palm, dit-da healing techniques, dit da jow formulas, etc. Some Sifus have their personal techniques, or "hand," that they reserve for themselves and may pass on to their bai-si disciples as well.

[bamboozled]

SteveLau: I agree that even without baisi, a student can make a lifetime commitment to the art and school, however, IF baisi is in the family tradition, then it's more of a two-way commitment (you-to-family AND family-to-you), moreso if sifu has stuff reserved for only the baisi disciple.

David Jamieson: How much emphasis would you put on "Ability through diligence"? If a student is diligent, works hard, tries hard, etc and also exhibits items 2 to 4 on your list BUT is a touch lacking on the "ability" part due to physical makeup or age or natural strength or whatever, would you still consider him baisi material? How much does martial ability count (toe-to-toe with George St-Pierre)? On the flip side: What if some student exhibits all of items 1 to 4 in school but is somewhat of a cad outside of school - is he still baisi material?

TT: I'm somewhat disheartened that "for a fee, many Sifus will bai-see a gwailo, take a picture, etc."...Kind of cheapen the whole ceremony, no? I don't disagree with the "fee" part since the sifu needs to make a living like everyone else, but still...I would hope that the worthiness of the baisi candidate comes way, way, way before his ability to pay...

This begs an interesting question: IMHO for a baisi disciple to be accepted into the family and have the chance to learn the whole system as taught in his family, is priceless. What does a baisi disciple do in return for receiving something that is priceless?

[TenTigers]

simple: practice hard, represent your Sifu and his teachings with honor, and continue the system.

[aktionmancer]

simple: practice hard, represent your Sifu and his teachings with honor, and continue the system.

exactly!

TRAIN YOU AZZ OFF! then pass it on

[SteveLau]

What does a baisi disciple do in return for receiving something that is priceless?

by Bamboozled


TenTigers has almost said all my answer to the question.

A baisi disciple would train hard at his best. Represent his sifu, the school of art with honor and respect. The disciple may or may not continue the system by teaching, promoting, etc.


P.S. I do not believe in the Baisi practice if the teaching given to a Baisi disciple is different from a non-Baisi student. Think about a similar relation like marriage. Does being legally married always make the couple's marriage life better than otherwise?



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[bamboozled]

TTT...simply because I find this topic soooo interesting :D

With respect to David Jamieson's comments a few post ago...does anyone care to chime in...

How much emphasis would you put on "Ability through diligence"? If a student is diligent, works hard, tries hard, etc and also exhibits items 2 to 4 on your list BUT is a touch lacking on the "ability" part due to physical makeup or age or natural strength or whatever, would you still consider him baisi material? How much does martial ability count (toe-to-toe with George St-Pierre)? On the flip side: What if some student exhibits all of items 1 to 4 in school but is somewhat of a cad outside of school - is he still baisi material?

Thanks.

[TenTigers]

yes to the first ine, no to the second. You choose disciples by who you want representing you. Most Sifus look for signs of good character, strong work ethic, and sense of responsibility and loyalty.

[LSWCTN1]

yes to the first ine, no to the second. You choose disciples by who you want representing you. Most Sifus look for signs of good character, strong work ethic, and sense of responsibility and loyalty.

but is it not well documented (in many TCMA's, not specifically Hung Ga) that the second example would also be in line for Bai Si too. people who are fantastic martial artists, but troublesome with it? after all many sifus wish to have their art be recognised as a fighting system for their own power, or fame, or reasons known only to themselves