Hop Ga kicks/ attn: diego

[jdhowland]

Lets start with basics. Hop Ga or other lama stylists should feel free to critique.

Daan geuk: single kick, also called "bullet" kick. This is the common "snap kick" which can be directed forward or to the side. The kick is initiated by raising the knee before extending the foot. Striking surface is the toe of the shoe, top of foot, ankle or shin.

Paak geuk: ("slapping the foot") can be any kick which inlcudes slapping the foot or brushing the foot into the palm at the focus of the kick. The slap ensures proper timing, focus and range of the kick. To a lesser degree it provides some contact conditioning. For a swing kick, keep the palm at or just beyond the target point to ensure full power and range at point of contact. The kick should easily overcome the resistance of the hand. For a toe kick, bring the forearm and palm directly down your center/target line to keep the foot from shifting laterally off target. In our school, we also use the term "paak geuk" to refer to an inside crescent kick trained in this way.

Deng: heel kick. Strong dorsiflexion on the foot as it is thrust forward and upward. The bottom of the heel is the striking surface. The ball of the foot should not make contact with the target. There is no snap to this kick. In other words, the knee is not flexed immidiately after contact. Rather, the heel is allowed to scrape upward until its momentum is gone. The pelvis should both lead the kick and follow it to allow uninterrupted power. This one is good for training on a heavy bag.

Tin gong geuk: In training, this is the front rising heel kick with the knee locked straight. Good for training hamstring elasticity. The kick is accelerated in an arc as far as you can go. It is better to lean into it for power than to lean back for the appearance of greater flexibility. In its pure form, this is a slow but strong kick and is good for developing strength and range for other kicks. In application, the knee can be bent to varying degrees.

(To be continued.)

jd

[diego]

So the three styles use the same stance and the same rear hand swinging strikes...you can do lama fist, tiger claw or finger spearing technique with the side bow stance with the rear hand stretched out behind.

From a fitness theory perspective what happens to the student through the three training stages of Meteor Fists, Crane Cutting Hand, and needle in cotton...like what happens to your side bow stance...you can put your fingers in watermelons at the cutting hand stage or meteor fistlevel, or is it level three? :)



Atatuojin's method was refined into six separate divisions/forms. These
are:

1. (Yi Xing Quan) Meteor/Comet Hands - Developed off of Potala Sengwa Ngwa
by Duoluojitan Lama for the Dub-Dub sect, as he thought that the (Fei He
Shou) Flying Crane Hands division was to complicated for initiates. It is
based on the movements of the Yeti (White Ape), and consists of four worlds
and four directions. North, Square World, the Overhand Strike. South,
Triangle World, the Straight Punch. East, Crescent World , the Uppercut
Strike. West, Round World, the Hooking Strike. Two position later added were
the backfist and claw.

2. (Luohan) Arhat - The last division to be added. Largely influenced by
Shaolinsi Quanfa, and based on the sixteen Tibetan Luohans and two Chinese
Luohans. This division contains the basic theories based on Simhanada
Vajramukti brought to China by Pu Ti Damo. This method was devised by
imitating the static postures of the Luohan statues of Shaolinsi, and led to
the development of Shiba Luohan Quan.

3. (Fei He Shou) Flying Crane Hands - This is the Adamantine Bodhisattva
(Diamond) and Jin Gang Luohan (Golden) Division. As well as the Five
Forms/Animals (Tiger, Leopard, Crane, Snake and Dragon) and Five Elements
(Metal, Water, Wood, Fire, Earth) Divisions.

4. (Miluofoshou/Budaishou) Maitreya Buddha Hands - An intermediate level
that teaches the five levels of Qinna.

5. (Mei Hua Quan) Plum Blossom Fist - Another intermediate level that was
added by Lama Jicbokowtow. This is the training where the individual "Opens
the petals (Jingluo) to release the perfume (Qi)". This was traditionally
done upon the Mei Hua Zhuang - Plum Blossom Stumps.

6. (Dou Luo Shou/Chan Hu Shou) Gauze/Silk Wrapping Hands - The advanced
level teaching the internal aspects of "Iron (Needle) Wrapped in Cotton".
Nei Qigong, Wai Qigong and Taiji Quan.


eight divisions were then used to create three distinct "forms", sometimes thought of as different levels or fighting theories. The three forms were "flying crane hands" (Fei Hok Sau), "Maitreya hands" (Neih Lahk Sau), and "Dou Lo hands". Thus, the system was actually quite complex.

"Flying crane hands"
(Fei Hok Sau)
was devoted to all of the fundamental level fighting techniques of the system and was composed of both fist strikes and open hand techniques aimed at vital points, kicking and sweeping techniques, evasive footwork, and continuous circular striking combinations.
"Maitreya hands"
(Neih Lahk Sau)
was devoted to the advanced fighting techniques and was composed of seizing, holding and twisting techniques and a very specialized skill known as the "vein seizing hand".

The third and final division was known as "Dou Lo hands" and was named for a plant indigenous to India, whose seeds have a hard outer shell but a soft, cotton like, substance within it. "Dou Lo Sau" was devoted to internal aspects of the system such as vital point striking and the special "vein changing skill". The needle in cotton hand set is derived from techniques of the "Dou Lo Sau" division.

After several generations, teachers of Lion's Roar kung-fu created a number of hand sets named after the Lo Han (Buddhist Saints) and the Gam Gong (literally "diamond" but referring to Buddhist Guradians). Furthermore, once Lion's Roar came to southern China its was renamed Lama Pai kung-fu and incorporated many techniques and ideas from Chinese martial arts. The original eight divisions, eight fundamentals in each division, and the three forms were gradually either forgotten or only explained to advanced students. If it were not for the recorded history left by earlier teachers, we may have never understood how Ah Dat-Ta developed the original Lion's Roar kung-fu system.

[diego]

Lets start with basics. Hop Ga or other lama stylists should feel free to critique.

Daan geuk: single kick, also called "bullet" kick. This is the common "snap kick" which can be directed foreward or to the side. The kick is initiated by raising the knee before extending the foot. Striking surface is the toe of the shoe, top of foot, ankle or shin.

Paak geuk: ("slapping the foot") can be any kick which inlcudes slapping the foot or brushing the foot into the palm at the focus of the kick. The slap ensures proper timing, focus and range of the kick. To a lesser degree it provides some contact conditioning. For a swing kick, keep the palm at or just beyond the target point to ensure full power and range at point of contact. The kick should easily overcome the resistance of the hand. For a toe kick, bring the forearm and palm directly down your center/target line to keep the foot from shifting laterally off target. In our school, we also use the term "paak geuk" to refer to an inside crescent kick trained in this way.

Deng: heel kick. Strong dorsiflexion on the foot as it is thrust foreward and upward. The bottom of the heel is the striking surface. The ball of the foot should not make contact with the target. There is no snap to this kick. In other words, the knee is not flexed immidiately after contact. Rather, the heel is allowed to scrape upward until its momentum is gone. The pelvis should both lead the kick and follow it to allow uninterrupted power. This one is good for training on a heavy bag.

Tin gong geuk: In training, this is the front rising heel kick with the knee locked straight. Good for training hamstring elasticity. The kick is accelerated in an arc as far as you can go. It is better to lean into it for power than to lean back for the appearance of greater flexibility. In its pure form, this is a slow but strong kick and is good for developing strength and range for other kicks. In application, the knee can be bent to varying degrees.

(To be continued.)

jd
I notice most of kaido's kick's you sink, rotate or rotate and sink depending how fast you are and then you swing the leg through the target creating room and a moment in time to follow up with another full body shot...I gotta watch the basic video again should repost in an hour or in the day.

http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/chaaiteui.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/feihokteui.jpg

[jdhowland]

So the three styles use the same stance and the same rear hand swinging strikes...you can do lama fist, tiger claw or finger spearing technique with the side bow stance with the rear hand stretched out behind.

Hi, diego.

In training basics, I would say that the three styles (three titles, really; the lineages are intertwined) have mostly the same theory and basics, exemplified by the long hand techniques from a side arrow horse. But from our very first Hop Ga fighting set the long and short hands are interspersed with, it seems, no preference for one over the other. This is in contrast to the White Crane I learned which spends years of emphasis on long range speed and flexibility in sets such as luhk lehk, chyut yahp bouh, tit lin kyuhn, tauh da, etc., before doing a lot of short hand training. I don't see this as a stylistic difference, just a different plan for teaching and integrating long and short.

jd

[jdhowland]

From a fitness theory perspective what happens to the student through the three training stages of Meteor Fists, Crane Cutting Hand, and needle in cotton...like what happens to your side bow stance...you can put your fingers in watermelons at the cutting hand stage or meteor fistlevel, or is it level three? :)

I don't know that Ng sigung ever used or acknowledged these divisions. They are usually associated with Ng Siu Jung's Baahk Hok version of lama. Harry Ng did learn Wong Lam Hoi's material as well as the Haahp Ga from Wong Yan Lam. But most of these organizational schemes are associated with either TWC or the expanded versions of Lama Paai, such as that taught by Lo Wai Keung. For example, Hop Ga doesn't have Needle in Cotton. Meteor fists, (louh sying kyuhn) are our basics, and white crane is an overall description of the appearance of our techniques. Muih fa jong is taught to beginners to develop leg skills.

Remember that when lama was first taught in the south, these divisions did not refer to specific fist forms, which were practically non-existent. They were developmental concepts suitable for different levels of training.

The side bow and arrow stance is essential in basic training. After all, the style was developed to combat expert wrestlers (you don't want those Mongolian wrestlers grabbing your legs). But you don't see it as much in the sets. It is always there as an option, but no one can predict what a fight will look like. Same with the comet hands. They don't go away just because chyun cheui might evolve into jin cheui ("arrow punch" fired from the chest instead of behind the body, or because kap cheui becomes a short pek cheui. The power and utility is still there from many hours of training in long hand style.

I hope this helps with your question about progressions in Hop Ga.

As for the watermelon thrust, ask M.P. about that. He's the expert. I'm still working on loganberries. You will understand unless you are too young to know the quote in my signature line.

Be well.

jd

[jdhowland]

Sou geuk: the sweeping legs or iron broom techniques are the same as in other systems, having forward and backward variations (contacting with heel or shin). Often trained in combination by alternating front and back sweeps.

Fuh mei geuk: Tiger tail kicks are similar to those in other styles. Variations exist for side kicks, spinning back heel thrusts, spinning hook kicks, etc,. One interesting variation of the tiger tail found in Hop Ga is a rising back heel kick in conjunction with the posture known as bai faht or "supplicating the buddha." This kick is actually a technique for throwing your enemy over your back after catching his shoulder.

Syuhn fung teui: The common whirlwind kick found in most systems. While some styles such as Choy Lei Faht like to lead into this with a tauh bouh "stealing step" or a crossover step, Hop Ga folks do this from a standstill or beginning with a simple foot stomp. Turns are 360 degrees for training purposes but for most applications only a half-turn is required.

Hok geuk: Although found also in Shaolin and other styles, this has become a kind of signature move for lama stylists. Reach both fists in front of your chest as far as you can reach while stepping forward and doing a straight heel kick. As the kicking foot begins its extension, drop and squat onto the standing leg while keeping the standing foot's heel on the floor. At the end of the squat the kicking heel is fully extended and remains a few inches above the floor. Now the fun part: without touching the floor with your hands, stand up again and execute a rising kick with the same extended leg. As you rise, your fists do a downward wing flap or seuhng deng "double nailing" technique overhead and to the sides of the body (this is often used to wrench elbows and shoulder joints). For strength and balance training this is done in slow motion and becomes the infamous "crane walk" forward and back across the training hall. For fighting, you stamp the standing foot onto the ground to catch yourself as you intentionally fall to the ground to stop or "take away" your opponent's legs. Follow up with ankle and knee scissors or other ground kahm nah methods.

[jdhowland]

I notice most of kaido's kick's you sink, rotate or rotate and sink depending how fast you are and then you swing the leg through the target creating room and a moment in time to follow up with another full body shot.

I never thought of it as "sinking." It's a good observation. In most kicks the standing leg adds power by extending slightly and moving the pelvis to accelerate the kicking leg. This implies that the knee of the supporting leg must first be flexed.

Good one on ya, James!

jd

[diego]

I never thought of it as "sinking." It's a good observation. In most kicks the standing leg adds power by extending slightly and moving the pelvis to accelerate the kicking leg. This implies that the knee of the supporting leg must first be flexed.

Good one on ya, James!

jd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LErs4bzDZ5Y&feature=PlayList&p=88A7D0AA945A680C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=87

so this at 1:18 his left foot twists and his right hip and leg hook into the target...he has no contraction in his left hip when he twists losing half of his torso weight while creating momentum before contact.

Kaido drops and sinks into horse stance which resembles the monkey kung fu posture which makes both hips tense and then the left foot twists while the whole body rotates bringing the right leg through in a cutting motion.

[diego]

so i'm going to post some pic's and I'm going through kaido's forms right now in slow motion on the dvd burner and man am I glad I didn't post the vid's online years ago when i had no idea what i was doing:) there is so much good **** in kaido's form any shaolin do ******* would make millions off his sets and combo's...:D:cool:

[diego]

http://img41.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=pdvd066n.jpg

Scroll the page from the bottom up.

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_NZFYJ23fA&feature=channel_page

just a quick slide...screwed up the music lol.

[diego]

slash kick into tornado with some wave hands prior to..new Slick rick for you youngins...and old timers;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzOXGu3AQP0

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2YCD3Nu0Yc&feature=channel_page

back spin and slash kick...

[jdhowland]

One thing to keep in mind about Kaido's technique is that he studied Hop Ga for only a short time and had other influences to his system.

Kajukenbo stresses combinations of techniques in specific required forms, possibly a jujitsu influence. It's a good way to learn to flow, but it tends to create dogmatic requirements for progressing in a system.

In contrast, Hop Ga stresses only simple combinations, and when breaking down the kyuhn for study you almost never come up with a technique that is more than two moves in length.

To add to the difficulty in tracing the sources for Kaido's HG-Kaju, Hop Ga has no really unique kicks or combinations that are not found in other systems. I've learned some "horse breaking" footwork in the Hop Ga that I haven't seen in other schools, but I don't get out much. It might be common Ten Tigers material.

From the clips I would think that Kaido's moves look like CMA, while Kaju generally does not.

As a side note: a lot of gung fu stylists tend to put down the tendency for the various Hawaiian styles (Kenpo, Kaju, Ken Ka Bo,...) to practice lengthy combos against a training partner who only gets to do one move. You can't learn to fight that way. But, to be fair, it's only a way to teach students to flow and keep up the attack. Maybe only suitable for basic training. But individuals often rise above the limits of their schools. My sifu considered Professor Emperado to be a good fighter.

jd

[jdhowland]

Seung fei teui: The double flying legs or "butterfly kick" is so-called because of the way the legs reciprocate or "flutter." Common to most styles, with variations. One foot kicks forward; while retracting the foot, the back leg springs up to kick at a higher level, often before the first foot touches the ground. The first kick is used to feint or disarm while the second kick (usually a heel kick, in our style) has more power.

Chat sing geuk: The seven star kick as popular in Praying Mantis styles. Sometimes a method to stop or hold the opponent's leg for a simultaneous upper body attack. In our school it is a method to shift the body's mass forward in order to utilize a "dropping" energy. You do not have to advance very far. In fact it can be executed when retreating or pressed from the front. Always done with an accompanying hand technique, it can be a foot trap or stomp, as well. Practice by stamping your weight onto one foot while extending the other heel. If the front heel does not touch the ground, you are unbalanced and can easily be knocked down. If you hit too hard and bruise your heel, you don't know where the ground is and need more proprioceptive training.

jd

[diego]

One thing to keep in mind about Kaido's technique is that he studied Hop Ga for only a short time and had other influences to his system.

Kajukenbo stresses combinations of techniques in specific required forms, possibly a jujitsu influence. It's a good way to learn to flow, but it tends to create dogmatic requirements for progressing in a system.

In contrast, Hop Ga stresses only simple combinations, and when breaking down the kyuhn for study you almost never come up with a technique that is more than two moves in length.

To add to the difficulty in tracing the sources for Kaido's HG-Kaju, Hop Ga has no really uniqe kicks or combinations that are not found in other systems. I've learned some "horse breaking" footwork in the Hop Ga that I haven't seen in other schools, but I don't get out much. It might be common Ten Tigers material.

From the clips I would think that Kaido's moves look like CMA, while Kaju generally does not.

As a side note: a lot of gung fu stylists tend to put down the tendency for the various Hawaiian styles (Kenpo, Kaju, Ken Ka Bo,...) to practice lengthy combos against a training partner who only gets to do one move. You can't learn to fight that way. But, to be fair, it's only a way to teach students to flow and keep up the attack. Maybe only suitable for basic training. But individuals often rise above the limits of their schools. My sifu considered Professor Emperado to be a good fighter.

jd


That's the thing with Kaido...he only studied for a short time Hop Ga but was 5'th degree BB under emperado...the thing is he was going to make his own Kajukenbo with the white crane on the patch my stepdad has one...money issues and politics came into play kaido dissed some kaju seniors and then quit...his major is kaju but the style he put together is white crane on the logo...i have to up some more slides in the next few days then we can get to the heart of this discussion.

cuz his forms are not kajukenbo, and his longfists are all over...cheers

[jdhowland]

That's the thing with Kaido...he only studied for a short time Hop Ga but was 5'th degree BB under emperado...the thing is he was going to make his own Kajukenbo with the white crane on the patch my stepdad has one...money issues and politics came into play kaido dissed some kaju seniors and then quit...his major is kaju but the style he put together is white crane on the logo...

Interesting. It makes me wonder if Kaido ever studied under Ronald Dong or his teacher, George Long. Long's style was a kind of hybrid of Hop Ga merged with Chan Hak Fu's white crane.

jd

[diego]

Interesting. It makes me wonder if Kaido ever studied under Ronald Dong or his teacher, George Long. Long's style was a kind of hybrid of Hop Ga merged with Chan Hak Fu's white crane.

jd

Prolly not but maybe...Kaido was in Montreal in 74, Ng Ming was killed 73, I'm pretty sure he moved there from San Francisco...didn't ron dong and george long not get much info they just made a bunch of stuff up?.

[jdhowland]

Prolly not but maybe...Kaido was in Montreal in 74, Ng Ming was killed 73, I'm pretty sure he moved there from San Francisco...didn't ron dong and george long not get much info they just made a bunch of stuff up?.

Long had some kind of falling out with Harry Ng and wasn't able to continue Hop Ga so he got in touch with Chan Hak Fu and bought into Chan's highly modified version of white crane. May have been something like an organizational affiliate to allow him to use the white crane name even though he didn't learn much from Chan. Ron Dong was strong and had good moves. I don't think they just made stuff up. They just didn't have a lot of material to work with. But a lot of Hop Ga is really pared down, too.

There was a San Francisco White Crane Association formed in the early 70s by mostly students of Teng Jak Ming. I still have my lapel pin. Long's school was not a part of it. Raymond Mah, William Siu and my teacher were in it. I think the Leung brothers were in Oakland and not in S.F. yet. When I asked my teacher where Ron Dong got his white crane he looked puzzled and said, "I don't know!"

Be well.

jd

[diego]

Long had some kind of falling out with Harry Ng and wasn't able to continue Hop Ga so he got in touch with Chan Hak Fu and bought into Chan's highly modified version of white crane. May have been something like an organizational affiliate to allow him to use the white crane name even though he didn't learn much from Chan. Ron Dong was strong and had good moves. I don't think they just made stuff up. They just didn't have a lot of material to work with. But a lot of Hop Ga is really pared down, too.

There was a San Francisco White Crane Association formed in the early 70s by mostly students of Teng Jak Ming. I still have my lapel pin. Long's school was not a part of it. Raymond Mah, William Siu and my teacher were in it. I think the Leung brothers were in Oakland and not in S.F. yet. When I asked my teacher where Ron Dong got his white crane he looked puzzled and said, "I don't know!"

Be well.

jd


hm...in the article you sent me it says kaido got it from Ng Ming...maybe he got it from them but I wasn't impressed with their pic's...kaido trained in the army they say...when he is 50 in the video his jumping and low sweep kicks look like a 22 year olds...he studied martial art in the Philippines with his dad as a boy...who knows:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZhqmE89Tmk&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fuser%2Fkajuhop&feature=player_profilepage

so at the 00:02 second mark kaido does a simple kajuenbo style front kick to take out the knees...but then he sinks into a horse stance with a longfist uppercut to the groin and grip and rip hung ga style, but with the rear behind hop ga form...:)

then the vid goes into a two man set where the brunnette starts the form before the blond guy making it off...but it shows the slash kicks tornadoes and low sweep into striking.:cool:

gonna up some slide shows. When did RD and GL start teaching and publishing books?.

My teacher wasn't impressed with david chins books let alone george longs..again we do kajukenbo with some tech from ng ming...i'm geussing kaido was athug and partied with SF thugs and shared tech's, loved the white crane p[osture power...

[diego]

You'd think Kaido would have mentioned RD and GL in the article as their books were being published around then right...http://www.hygeia-design.com/Kaido/

[jdhowland]

hm...in the article you sent me it says kaido got it from Ng Ming...maybe he got it from them but I wasn't impressed with their pic's...kaido trained in the army they say...when he is 50 in the video his jumping and low sweep kicks look like a 22 year olds...he studied martial art in the Philippines with his dad as a boy...who knows:)...
When did RD and GL start teaching and publishing books?....

I didn't mean to suggest that Kaido did not learn from master Ng; only that he might have picked up some crane stuff in S.F. after Ng was killed, hence the associaton with the crane symbol.

The Ohara book was written by Mike Staples and Dong posed for the photos. Published in the early 70s. I bought a copy in '74 and was disappointed that it was not like what I was learning but it was well laid out and, for such a short publication, a good introduction to their style.

Long had an acupuncture studio in S.F. sometime before Ng Yim Ming arrived. I would be interested to learn if Long taught any gung fu before learning from Ng. Anybody know about this?

jd

[jdhowland]

You'd think Kaido would have mentioned RD and GL in the article as their books were being published around then right...http://www.hygeia-design.com/Kaido/

Nah. Kaido was representing Hop Ga in the article. GL and RD were definitely not affiliated with Hop. They were representing their own style of white crane. The magazine, as I recall, was not an Ohara publication so there was no reason for them to plug it.

jd

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/user/kajuhop#all/uploads-all/0/PDLjXX9Ev6c

new clip:D..all of these slide shows are from the 6'th set...Kaido has like 10-12 of these sets, I wonder how many forms he actually knew?. The like 5'th or 7'th set looks like lama needle in cotton but then it speeds up almost resembling som mantis with the twist stance and hook hand sow choy i think...

[htowndragon]

depending on who you ask, george long first learned from Chan Hak Fu before Ng Yim Ming. Other stories say otherwise. George Long, Jack Huey and my sifu David Chin were the first three people to Bai Si to Ng.

Long and Ng had a falling out, and Long taught his version of White Crane, which was the "Bak Hok Jung" (White Crane Sect) of Hop Ga. This was coming from Tony Galvin in a phone conversation, after discussion with my sifu, he says the same thing. Long's kung fu is no joke despite the politics

[jdhowland]

depending on who you ask, george long first learned from Chan Hak Fu before Ng Yim Ming. Other stories say otherwise. George Long, Jack Huey and my sifu David Chin were the first three people to Bai Si to Ng.

Long and Ng had a falling out, and Long taught his version of White Crane, which was the "Bak Hok Jung" (White Crane Sect) of Hop Ga. This was coming from Tony Galvin in a phone conversation, after discussion with my sifu, he says the same thing. Long's kung fu is no joke despite the politics

Hi, Htowndragon. I was hoping you would join in.

I never heard that Long knew Chan before his Hop Ga days. Could be. I heard those guys have a version of chyut yahp bouh. That takes a long time to learn and cannot be picked up in a few meetings.

Interesting that Long considered his white crane to be a part of the Hop Ga. This makes me wonder again whether Kaido had connections to his school or shared with some of his students.

I never saw Long, but Ron Dong was respected in the white crane community. I visited his school once and was impressed by the tough, hardworking atmosphere. Their punches looked like pure Chan Hak Fu style.

Too bad that RD has retired from teaching. He could probably shed some light on the George Long/ Hop Ga connection.

Be well.

jd

[jdhowland]

Slice kick: a scraping kick using the outside edge of the foot to cut across the shin. (Remember the old trick of sewing sharpened copper coins into the soles of shoes? Me neither. I'm not that old. But supposedly it was done.) With a good pair of "Beatle boots" like Bruce Lee used to wear, or my teacher's hard-soled dress boots, this kick could really do some damage. You can't train this one on a hanging bag; use a carpet covered post.

Pek: This is the hooking and lifting kick used in shuai jiao. Kicking surface is the yeung side of the ankle or shin. Featured as a signature move in "white crane skims water," this one is also used in Hop Ga to assist with throws.

Bai Lin: The "swinging chain" kick is the inside-to-outside crescent kick in our system. A very strong kick but relatively slow because of the need to build up power with body turning while flexing and then extending the standing leg. This is the lower limb equivalent of a sou cheui, with relaxed follow-through. For training, use the side bow and arrow horse. Kick with the arrow leg toward an area just forward of the bow leg. As you start the kick, suddenly swing your waist and upper body in the opposite direction leading the foot with the waist. Perform paak geuk by stretching both arms out in front of the chest, palms outward and the fingers of both hands facing the same way (fingertips pointing in the direction of the kick). As your flexibility and speed increase, you should be able to smack the shin against both palms. Finish by grounding the kick and assuming a bow and arrow to the opposite side; the kicking arrow leg becomes the new bow. Point the fingertips in the opposite direction, and you are ready to perform bai lin with the opposite side. For standing line drills, kick with the leg straight. This is also an excellent kick for training with a heavy bag, but bend the knee to protect the joint and to select targets. Some applications require you to have a hold on your opponent's arm while kicking to dislocate the shoulder or do damage to the lower rib area. The arc of the kick can also be modified to chop downward with the back of the heel.

jd

[htowndragon]

it is unclear what the kaido/harry ng hop ga connection was.

so far I've asked a lot of people from that time who would know, none of them ever recall seeing Kaido. Tony Galvin wrote that Kaido trained with Ng Yim Ming, but also told me over the phone he did not remember him, but it was only based on something someone said. It is possible that he did train, as ng's group was divided into two groups: his "real hardcore students" and his "young thug" group. I have only asked people from the first group, as the second group never really trained.

however, kaidos hop ga based on that article moves vastly different from any hop ga coming out of ng's line that i have seen, maybe because of the kajukenbo?


jdhowland may be right about the george long/ chan hak fu connection. i heard it differently from tony galvin, saying that he had learned some bak hok from chan prior to learning from ng. politics say that long "bai si -ed" into chan hak fu's line to gain legitimacy to use the "white crane" name. Suffice to say Long's white crane is separate from both the mainstream Chan Hak Fu line as well as the other descendents of Ng Siu Chung and is a hybrid between that and Hop Ga's "Bak Hok Jung" descending from Wong Yan Lum, Wong Hon Wing, Fok Hung, and Ng Yim Ming. Nothing wrong with that at all, things happen. By all accounts I hear Ron Dong is a tough guy. I also heard from Michael Staples that there was another "Ron" from the school known as "Big Ron" who would go out and fight against rival gangs, sometimes up to 4 on 1, just to test out whatever technique they were learning. Long's "burning palm" was his "trademark" technique and would raise welts on Staples arm by merely slapping. Tony Galvin trained with both George Long and my Sifu David Chin, as well as Ng Yim Ming.

[jdhowland]

=htowndragon;943200]it is unclear what the kaido/harry ng hop ga connection was.

so far I've asked a lot of people from that time who would know, none of them ever recall seeing Kaido. Tony Galvin wrote that Kaido trained with Ng Yim Ming, but also told me over the phone he did not remember him, but it was only based on something someone said. It is possible that he did train, as ng's group was divided into two groups: his "real hardcore students" and his "young thug" group. I have only asked people from the first group, as the second group never really trained.

I always assumed he was one of those who paid for lessons in the first group you mentioned, since I assume that one would have to be Chinese to belong to the second group.


however, kaidos hop ga based on that article moves vastly different from any hop ga coming out of ng's line that i have seen, maybe because of the kajukenbo?

I thought so too. When I bought the magazine I was interested in collecting anything written about grandmaster Ng and his style. But the descriptions and photos look more like exaggerated crane than any Hop Ga I learned. Why the low stances and wasted opportunities between the moves? I also wonder whether Master Chin ever gave permission for the article. It seems to me that he should have been the one to write it. It looks as if someone had planned to do an article on David Chin, but it didn't work out so they got other students to pose for photos.


i heard it differently from tony galvin, saying that he had learned some bak hok from chan prior to learning from ng.

If Tony Galvin said it, I believe it. Galvin was a first-hand observer. That beats biased speculation, anyday.


Tony Galvin trained with both George Long and my Sifu David Chin, as well as Ng Yim Ming.

I knew he trained with your sifu. Didn't know he learned from Long, as well. Thanks for the info.

jd

[htowndragon]

True on what you said about the second group, but that statement would be "mostly" true overall. I actually think Lau Bun taught more "gwai lo's" than Harry Ng ever did, Tony Galvin being the only known exception. Looking at all this overall, I do NOT know where Kaido fits in. Granted, he had to get those hands from somewhere.

As for the article, i don't think permission was ever granted, and my sifu never remembers even seeing that article! :confused: in fact when i sent it to him he was like, WTH IS THIS?!!! also said that he doesn't remember Kaido. Maybe he paid for private lessons or learned elsewhere? We may never know.

Tony went all over and trained with a lot of people after the death of our si gung, including Fan Chong Yip, Lung Wah, etc. in Hong Kong. Even trained a little with Ku Chi Wai. I saw the video that Tony taped with Ku. It was painful to watch.

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lidTcbnyc0

i think this is the last of the 6'th set kick combo's which is all I'm gonna post on that...brutal each slide is like 200 pic's and i gotta edit them...up bright, clear shadows, load..repeat

F-U-CK WINDOWS LIVE PHOTO why can't you just select all brighten and fade. click:D

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXiFxH5eE0s

Okay so let's start at the basics, here's slide show of front kick and round kick. Now every thing demo'd by Peter in these clips is based on the white crane kaido hop ga link, my teacher asked him to just film Ng Ming tech's...no kajukenbo.

[diego]

Slice kick: a scraping kick using the outside edge of the foot to cut across the shin. (Remember the old trick of sewing sharpened copper coins into the soles of shoes? Me neither. I'm not that old. But supposedly it was done.) With a good pair of "Beatle boots" like Bruce Lee used to wear, or my teacher's hard-soled dress boots, this kick could really do some damage. You can't train this one on a hanging bag; use a carpet covered post.


jd

um kaido used to put metal lining on his boots before clubbing..I wonder where he learned that?:D

[diego]

[QUOTE

I always assumed he was one of those who paid for lessons in the first group you mentioned, since I assume that one would have to be Chinese to belong to the second group.



I thought so too. When I bought the magazine I was interested in collecting anything written about grandmaster Ng and his style. But the descriptions and photos look more like exaggerated crane than any Hop Ga I learned. Why the low stances and wasted opportunities between the moves? I also wonder whether Master Chin ever gave permission for the article. It seems to me that he should have been the one to write it. It looks as if someone had planned to do an article on David Chin, but it didn't work out so they got other students to pose for photos.



If Tony Galvin said it, I believe it. Galvin was a first-hand observer. That beats biased speculation, anyday.



I knew he trained with your sifu. Didn't know he learned from Long, as well. Thanks for the info.

jd

I heard kaido's dad helped Ng Ming with immigration that's how kaido got in...maybe that would have broken the "Chinese" barrier!?...and the only reason this is online is because my mom married some guy...:) kaido was very secretive, I only post this to find some history behind the moves I do.

[jdhowland]

Here's one for training endurance and balance:

Start with left leg in front. Do a forward daan geuk as a front slap kick (paak). Go for as much height and speed as you can get. As you drop the kicking foot into a front gung jin bouh, perform the same kick on the left side. As the left foot lands, jump into a butterfly kick while clearing with a right gaau sau or "stirring hand." (This is the same as Choy Lei Faht's poon kiuh). You sweep the space in front of you just before the right foot comes up the center to start the butterfly. As the right foot retracts, the left does the same kick but meets the left hand in a paak geuk. As the left foot touches down, jump off of it to perform clockwise syuhn fung teui at least three times in quick succession or keep going until you run out of room. When you get to the end of the hall, turn and repeat the series going back, this time starting with the right foot in front so the whirlwind kicks go counterclockwise.

Try to keep your road straight. Beginners usually get dizzy a little way into the exercise. With time, your body adapts and you can keep up the spinning kicks for longer periods.

We used to practice this with every kicking session. When completed we were warmed up enough to do more strenuous kicking drills.

In a similar manner you can do sou geuk foot sweeps across the floor by alternately sweeping with the shin of one foot and the heel of the other, going clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other.

[jdhowland]

Here's a simple combination kick for fighting application.

While engaging upper gate with hands do a grazing "slice" kick to the shin of the opponent's lead leg. If he tries to withdraw the leg change the angle of your attack by circling back slightly and kicking his back knee with the heel or edge of the foot.

jd

[jdhowland]

This one is for elasticity. It can get the cardio going, too, with enough reps.

Start from a left foot forward gung jin bouh. Perform a right daan geuk or single kick while slapping the foot. Bend the kicking knee and retract the leg behind you as you fall back into a forward splits position. Push off the left heel and slide backwards onto the top of your right shoe. Catch yourself with palms to the floor on either side. The back foot is extended, the front foot points upward or you can try a strong dorsiflexion to get more stretch. Hold this posture for several seconds.
Switch positions by turning your torso clockwise to face the right foot. The right toe now faces upward and left foot rests on the dorsal surface. Again, hold for several seconds before turning anticlockwise while turning the legs to regain the original left foot forward split.

Push off with your hands (unless your name happens to be Little Richard) to stand and take a right step forward into gung jin bouh. You are now ready to lead with a left kick to repeat the exercise on the opposite side.

Duration: across the training hall and back or 6 to 12 repetitions on each side.

jd

[jdhowland]

Groundwork drill:

Start from a left foot forward position. Do a sou geuk foot sweep with the right leg, turning at least 180 degrees. From the crouch, launch yourself over the sweeping leg and perform a left shoulder roll. Land on your right side with your feet forward and at the same time tuck your right leg under while you do a low side kick with your left foot. Using power of the waist, upper back and thighs ("fish power"), launch yourself into the air to land on your left side and do the same side kick with the right foot while retracting the left. Practice a backfall by springing onto your upper back with the head raised and looking forward. The right foot, having completed the side kick retracts with the sole on the floor, knee bent and pelvis raised an inch or two. As you land on your back, kick forward and upward with your left heel. Spin your legs to torque the body and get your feet underneath you (the spinning is also a leg scissors takedown). Step your right foot forward to practice the drill on the opposite side.

There are at least six potential leg takedowns in one repetition.

Be well.

jd

[jdhowland]

OK, maybe one more. This one is from a fighting set.

From a left foot forward stance do a right side front slap kick and fall back into splits as in a previous exercise. Bending your left knee, tuck your left heel towards your crotch. Sweep your right foot anti-clockwise until it crosses over your left knee. While weight-bearing on the outside edge of your right foot, lean forward and jump up into a right syun fung teui and land facing in the direction you started from.

This is more athletic than most of our kicks and is fun for that reason, but every move is a fighting technique. Even the split posture is a takedown.

Be well.

jd

[diego]

This one is for elasticity. It can get the cardio going, too, with enough reps.

Start from a left foot forward gung jin bouh. Perform a right daan geuk or single kick while slapping the foot. Bend the kicking knee and retract the leg behind you as you fall back into a forward splits position. Push off the left heel and slide backwards onto the top of your right shoe. Catch yourself with palms to the floor on either side. The back foot is extended, the front foot points upward or you can try a strong dorsiflexion to get more stretch. Hold this posture for several seconds.
Switch positions by turning your torso clockwise to face the right foot. The right toe now faces upward and left foot rests on the dorsal surface. Again, hold for several seconds before turning anticlockwise while turning the legs to regain the original left foot forward split.

Push off with your hands (unless your name happens to be Little Richard) to stand and take a right step forward into gung jin bouh. You are now ready to lead with a left kick to repeat the exercise on the opposite side.

Duration: across the training hall and back or 6 to 12 repetitions on each side.

jd
Interesting drills, you can't shoot some clips eh? :) What is the offensive kicking theory...does Hop ga/White Crane attack first like Muay Thai or is kicking more secondary, and what is the process of physical fitness, how does a beginner go from shuffling side kick to tornado kick...like what is the traditional order of progression?. I'm working on my tornado kicks right now, need to get my splits down pat;) could use some tips to make my low sweep kicks more crisp...round and hooking heel.

Here's an interesting FMA footwork clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELWEjSFWGRA

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_WWZHduUHM&feature=channel_page

is there any crazy core exercises in the system from the war days when families would perfrom on the street for salad?.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geix2cdeU90&feature=channel_page

ok I have a total respect for wu shu, i see what they did, too bad a lot of it looks ghey:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWmb3pHT55E&feature=channel_page

[jdhowland]

=diego;946670]Interesting drills, you can't shoot some clips eh?

Nope, sorry. I do have some old videotape but not with any of our basic training.



What is the offensive kicking theory...does Hop ga/White Crane attack first like Muay Thai or is kicking more secondary...

Kick whenever you need to. In general, it's considered risky to lead with a foot. Hop Ga is as much grappling as striking and we know what to do with a leg if we catch one. The assumption is that your opponent is as skilled as you are. There is a saying that "the moon throws a shadow over the foot." The "moon" is your fist.


and what is the process of physical fitness, how does a beginner go from shuffling side kick to tornado kick...like what is the traditional order of progression?.

I tried to list the kicks in pretty much the order in which i learned them, but they are all basic. Some of the drills are just harder than others. The first four i listed would be learned in the first couple of months of training. All of them could be learned within a year. Some of our combinations were derived directly from sets and others were just basic drills emphasized by our teachers. You can make up your own as long as it has some training application. You also have to keep the training "alive" by varying the height, direction and timing of kicks. Don't let it become a dead form because exercises can't teach you to fight. Note that our whirlwind kick exercise has no fighting application in the exact form we use, but it increases stamina and balance which are good attributes for a fighter.

A standard progression for kicking skills would be:

1) Learn each kick as a standing drill. Do a number of repetitions on the right side, then repeat on the left. There is a stylized method for switching from one side to the other but i won't get into it here. Let's just say that different schools have different methods to hoi jong or "open the post" and they sometimes indicate a specific lineage or teacher's preference. For standing drills you can leave your fists outstretched to the sides, rather than using an "en garde" position because we need to train for a lot of shoulder stamina in our style.

2) Once your form is more or less correct, repeat the standing drills with a set number of repetitions on each side, 30 at minimum. Go as fast as you can while still keeping good form. Then we do "one-minute drills" in which you use a wall clock with a sweep hand (or a partner with a watch,) to time your kicks. Initially try for 80 good kicks per minute on each side. This is hellish training for people with long legs.

3) Progress to stepping drills, alternating sides for each basic kick while moving. As you move forward with each kick, control your leg before stepping. Don't just let it drop to the ground like a sack of cement after finishing a kick. Imagine that you are retracting your foot from a kick and then find you have to do another kick before you touch the ground. You should be able to place your foot down onto an egg without breaking it. Then, when you are ready to step for the next kick, step deliberately, even stomp, if you like. But make sure you are stepping because you have the intent to move forward, not just because you are tired of holding your leg up.

4) Kicking bag drills. Protect your knees! Always be aware of your knee position for kicking or standing. Start with repeated single techniques, then progress to combination drills. Finally throw in some hands. This is good for learning range and balance. A three-minute "all out" power drill on the heavy bag is a good challenge.

5) Sparring. Gotta make sure you train to kick something that moves like a human being. Like,...oh, i dunno. Maybe another human?


I'm working on my tornado kicks right now, need to get my splits down pat;) could use some tips to make my low sweep kicks more crisp...round and hooking heel.

Waist power is the most important thing for sweeps. But you know that. I hated sweeping drills because they were so hard for me. There are at least three styles of doing broom techniques. One is to keep both knees well bent and your mass centered. This is very fast and a good way to strike the back of your opponent's knee or calf. There is the low form which stretches the sweeping leg out as far as possible while holding onto the floor to increase rotational force, (this version provides the most exercise and makes the largest sweeps, but it's hard to get the same speed). Then there is our version which is a little narrower than the others. You have the opportunity to change it into a shin kick, a leg lock, or just a step forward in case you miss. The back sweeps we do pretty much the same as other schools but, again, the possibility exists of making them narrower, more nearly a back kick with the foot remaining on the floor. Do you know the posture common to all "lama" styles called bai faht or "bow to the buddha"?

Be well. jd

[diego]

Nope, sorry. I do have some old videotape but not with any of our basic training.

.

Kick whenever you need to. In general, it's considered risky to lead with a foot. Hop Ga is as much grappling as striking and we know what to do with a leg if we catch one. The assumption is that your opponent is as skilled as you are. There is a saying that "the moon throws a shadow over the foot." The "moon" is your fist.



I tried to list the kicks in pretty much the order in which i learned them, but they are all basic. Some of the drills are just harder than others. The first four i listed would be learned in the first couple of months of training. All of them could be learned within a year. Some of our combinations were derived directly from sets and others were just basic drills emphasized by our teachers. You can make up your own as long as it has some training application. You also have to keep the training "alive" by varying the height, direction and timing of kicks. Don't let it become a dead form because exercises can't teach you to fight. Note that our whirlwind kick exercise has no fighting application in the exact form we use, but it increases stamina and balance which are good attributes for a fighter.

A standard progression for kicking skills would be:

1) Learn each kick as a standing drill. Do a number of repetitions on the right side, then repeat on the left. There is a stylized method for switching from one side to the other but i won't get into it here. Let's just say that different schools have different methods to hoi jong or "open the post" and they sometimes indicate a specific lineage or teacher's preference. For standing drills you can leave your fists outstretched to the sides, rather than using an "en garde" position because we need to train for a lot of shoulder stamina in our style.

2) Once your form is more or less correct, repeat the standing drills with a set number of repetitions on each side, 30 at minimum. Go as fast as you can while still keeping good form. Then we do "one-minute drills" in which you use a wall clock with a sweep hand (or a partner with a watch,) to time your kicks. Initially try for 80 good kicks per minute on each side. This is hellish training for people with long legs.

3) Progress to stepping drills, alternating sides for each basic kick while moving. As you move forward with each kick, control your leg before stepping. Don't just let it drop to the ground like a sack of cement after finishing a kick. Imagine that you are retracting your foot from a kick and then find you have to do another kick before you touch the ground. You should be able to place your foot down onto an egg without breaking it. Then, when you are ready to step for the next kick, step deliberately, even stomp, if you like. But make sure you are stepping because you have the intent to move forward, not just because you are tired of holding your leg up.

4) Kicking bag drills. Protect your knees! Always be aware of your knee position for kicking or standing. Start with repeated single techniques, then progress to combination drills. Finally throw in some hands. This is good for learning range and balance. A three-minute "all out" power drill on the heavy bag is a good challenge.

5) Sparring. Gotta make sure you train to kick something that moves like a human being. Like,...oh, i dunno. Maybe another human?



Waist power is the most important thing for sweeps. But you know that. I hated sweeping drills because they were so hard for me. There are at least three styles of doing broom techniques. One is to keep both knees well bent and your mass centered. This is very fast and a good way to strike the back of your opponent's knee or calf. There is the low form which stretches the sweeping leg out as far as possible while holding onto the floor to increase rotational force, (this version provides the most exercise and makes the largest sweeps, but it's hard to get the same speed). Then there is our version which is a little narrower than the others. You have the opportunity to change it into a shin kick, a leg lock, or just a step forward in case you miss. The back sweeps we do pretty much the same as other schools but, again, the possibility exists of making them narrower, more nearly a back kick with the foot remaining on the floor. Do you know the posture common to all "lama" styles called bai faht or "bow to the buddha"?

Be well. jd


Buddy just sent me last sat's u...f...cfightone hundred...trying to beat google sensors for this link:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VE2W4V1Q
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RZY01NP7
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZMF7FWW8
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NBGYOSRU
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XVQRXQU0
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7AN990B2
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=W859YGJ7


if any one sees this you're welcome...I'm excited!.



Thank you for the thorough reply JD:cool: I notice Beijing Wu Shu trains the shoulder stamina thing with the arms outstretched...can you tell me more about the history of this training concept, what styles besides lama are famous for it, what are the levels of training?...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-onHMFFhCNM&feature=channel

she used to tie her arms to torso to train the no hand cartwheel...does lama methods do like handcuff training like that one hung ga related style...i can't recall the name but they do a handcuff form. kinky;):D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhGcnG_vfSs

Two part clip Bruce does the pull back side kick thing while shuffling forward for multiple hits...thanks for the egg shell tip the Golden rooster on one leg posture is the main fundamental I'm working on training it while stable and entering from a nuetral posture to reclining;) back into it during mulitple hand and foot combo's,

Great thread JD, have you published any Lama system articles before? you should if you can get the time!.

Cheers,

James

[jdhowland]

...I notice Beijing Wu Shu trains the shoulder stamina thing with the arms outstretched...can you tell me more about the history of this training concept, what styles besides lama are famous for it, what are the levels of training?.

I don't know much about how other systems use this but it is one of the basic principles established by our legendary founder, Ho Da To: "keep the hands away from the body." Even a western boxer's arms can get tired after a few rounds, so it makes sense to train keeping your arms up. Also, because our style relies heavily on wrestling skills, it helps to prevent getting both arms trapped in "big door" crossing techniques.

About 25 years ago, i took a class in Beijing opera performance. The basic training was mostly wushu techniques and included walking and kicking drills with the hands outstretched. Looked just like White Crane's pushing palms posture. It just occurred to me while writing this that a benefit to this arm position is that it gives a kind of inertia to the upper body so that we can practice turning the waist independently of the upper body. I don't know what other styles practice basics like this but you can see the tendency in the sets of a lot of northern and western styles such as Chaquan.

For shoulder training, all the muhk yih pai exercises are good. I like to do our lohon set with a 5-lb. pillow weight on each wrist and a 2- to 3-lb. dumbbell in each hand. For adding jaau strength i hold the dumbbells by the "bell" ends between my fingertips. I think i wrote about this somewhere previously, but in my Baahk Hok class in San Francisco, Master Fong had us stand in "duhk luhp mah" with arms outstretched while squeezing those spring-type grip exercisers in each hand. To make sure we didn't cheat ourselves by not squeezing consistently, he had us hold small stacks of quarters between each of the handgrips. When we got tired, the concert of musical coins began. Nobody wanted to be the first to lose his quarters.



... have you published any Lama system articles before? you should if you can get the time!.


Thanks. I've thought of it, but it would be hard to come up with an angle that lkfdmc hasn't already covered! And my teachers are still around so i should really get permission for something like that. Maybe.

Be well.

jd

[diego]

TTT



Sorry for the delay on this thread, I've been sitting on my but at the beach... I'm trying to figure out proper numbers training in CMA with with basic fitness knowledge.

They say you should do the meteor fists ten thousand times...what does this mean, like what happens to the students anatomy when you get to number 8,796?:D

this is just a quick post, i have a thesis worth of ideas I'm trying to formulate.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=diego;957006They say you should do the meteor fists ten thousand times...what does this mean, like what happens to the students anatomy when you get to number 8,796?:DQUOTE]

"Ten thousand" in Chinese means "myriad," "uncountable," "a lot."

I'm not a physiologist or sports medicine guy. I don't know about any theories or studies that indicate optimum numbers of reps and training patterns for striking of the kind seen in weight training.

I do know that overtraining in our "fihng sau" arm-swinging/shoulder rotation drills can give you serious tendonitis. I got really good at it as a teenager. As the token roundeye in a class of ABCs, I tried to be the most flexible student in class since I was too long-limbed to match the other guys in quickness. About my mid-40s I regretted paying more attention to limb flexibility than core strength.

We were taught that 500 reps a day of each Hop Ga strike was optimum. I also like doing our Lo Hon set slowly with a pair of muhk yih pai.

Happy training.

John