How long a form should be?

[SPJ]

how long a form/routine should be?

if you are to practice combo or set up

the moves may be 3 to 5

even thou the variations may be many

so for all practical purposes

how many moves and counter moves, you would string together and practice?

this is inspired by another thread.

:)

[SPJ]

so in the other thread

there is a discussion of practicing long forms with pause points or transition points.

if we learn a few forms, we may be able to remember all the sequences.

however, as we learn more and more forms.

sometimes, we may forget the order of the sequences or mixing them up.

so instead of a->b->c->d

we may forget at pause points what the next sequence would be.

--

so for practice purpose

what would be an ideal number of postures placed together in one block?

:)

[SPJ]

1. for performance purpose, we may place as many moves as the show time dictates.

2. for collection of representative moves of a style, we may string as many postures as needed.

3. however, how many moves/postures you may recall at one time?

what are your tricks or how do you remember 108 moves?

of course we all practice several moves in a block and then practice all the blocks together in one shot.

---

[uki]

a form should be as long as you are willing to practice... sometimes my freeforms last like an hour - especially if i eat the mushrooms first. :D

[Mr Punch]

The same length as a piece of string?

[uki]

if its a bagua form it just goes around and around and around... it has no end... :p

[Yao Sing]

Twice as long as the halfway point?

I've always liked the idea of one long form with all your moves in it, then broken up into smaller sections for learning.

What I don't like are forms that have the sames moves with just a few new ones added.

Does that help?

[AdrianK]

Forms are human expression and as such, like any form of human expression (music, painting, etc.) it is limitless. There is no length of time it should be, or can be.

[uki]

Forms are human expression and as such, like any form of human expression (music, painting, etc.) it is limitless. There is no length of time it should be, or can be.uh-oh... don't let the master/sifu/sensei/students see this truth...

i can hear the martial arts business(i hope i spelled that right) owners laments already! :D

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYoBp8i0i14&feature=related

tai chi 13 postures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGjav9F58YM&feature=related

tai chi 24 postures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5iT-jDFEPk&feature=fvw

tai chi 36 postures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQytjv9QNBc&feature=related

tai chi 56 postures.

we all learn one posture at a time.

yes. we may break down long forms into segments and practice.

yes. you may design many and many moves and place them in a long form/routine for well over 100 moves.

personally, I think that 24 is a good arbitray number for me.

and of course, people may make 6 hours movies with intermission at 3 hours interval

so theoretically, you may string 1000 moves in your form.

I mean good luck in remembering all of your moves.

--

:D

[SPJ]

so when I first learned chen tai ji lao jia yi lu.

it was like consisting of 72 postures

so when I ran into

1. chen xiao wan compiled 36 postures.

2. cheng man ching's yang 37 postures

3. Professor K's 36 postures

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5iT-jDFEPk&feature=fvw

I know all the moves.

but I think 36 postures would be "easier" for a new learner/student.

and that was the main reason for the 3 people above to abstract and reduce the number by 50% to make them more popular.

and that was the main reason to have

standardized yang 24 postures.

to make them easier for people to pick up and practice.

---

:cool:

[David Jamieson]

Forms are a method. They are a learning tool.
In a system, they are used in a logical and progressive way.

So, in order to learn a given system, the forms are broken down into digestable sizes for the minds of the average practitioner.

Forms can be adapted for people who have trouble learning larger chunks of information or those who have difficulty with more demanding techniques.

Over time, the system is taught and learned and then it is about practice in order to understand what it is the system contains for you as an individual.

creation of forms is merely a practice of demonstrating understanding of the system and how to progressively instruct the material of the system.

a single posture can contain a lot of information to be used.
a single movement can contain a few applications.

movements and postures are used in form to help the student understand and use the style.

made up forms without purpose of methodical transmission aren't very useful to anyone but the person doing it, and even then, there's a lot of ways to break a sweat. Not really what forms are for.

so, 1 move or 1 posture is the minimum. the maximum is dependent on the persons ability to understand. In the case of a system, the forms are already worked out. If the student can't comprehend the pattern, they need to put more effort into understanding and practice. If after that, they still don't get it or won't get it, then they should move on to something they can grasp more readily.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj1zkwv2I8U&feature=channel_page

in the beginning of the clip

you see 3 single move drills

and then 2 placed together in a routine.

yes we all practice one posture over and over

then put 3 to 5 together and over and over again.

---

[brothernumber9]

At least 10 characters.

[Shaolinlueb]

i think they should be 108. the longer the better right?
;):p

[David Jamieson]

They should be long enough to contain the material that is to be imparted in that particular block of lessons.

try not to clump calculus in with basic math, try not to teach grammar to infants, etc etc. The analogies never run out!

[YouKnowWho]

if you are to practice combo or set up, the moves may be 3 to 5
I think 9 moves combo should be the maximum. In the striking art, the longest combo that I have seen was from the PM system. It contains 9 moves. In the throwing art, the longest combo that I have seen was from the SC system, It contains 7 moves. There may be longer combo that I have not seen. But longer than 9 moves combo may not make much sense IMO.

How many moves can you do by using "firemen's carry" as your initial set up? Not too many. After you have picked your opponent over your head, there won't be many fancy moves left for you to do after that.

[YouKnowWho]

It also depends on how many kicks that you have in your form. If you have flying side kick, spin back kick, double jumping kicks, tornado kick, double jumping crescent kick, 360 degree floor sweep, ... in your form then that form should not be too long.

[Yao Sing]

Right now I like tang lang chu dong, its about 60 moves long and takes just under a minute at full speed and I have to catch my breath afterwards. For me thats kind of the point, its like doing a round on the bag, if you finish and you aren't breathing hard, you aren't pushing yourself hard enough.

Respectfully disagree, forms should not be used for cardio work. They will give you a bit of a stamina workout but that shouldn't be the focus.

The reason I say this is because I've never seen anyone rush through a form and maintain clean moves. I believe you're ingraining sloppy moves into your body when you put speed over quality in forms practice.

I think you should go no faster than what's possible while maintaining the quality of the moves. Maintain the quality of moves in your forms and do something else for cardio.

[YouKnowWho]

I just believe that some of the "quality" in a Mantis set is the speed of the movement. Mantis performed slowly is incorrect for application and will not work.
Agree! When you shot a machine gun, you don't have to hit your target on every single bullet. As long as you can hit your target in any one of your bullets, the function of a "machine gun" has been achieved. Not many styles use this approach and that's for sure (people said that Baiji is like grenade, LF is like a riffle, and PM is like a machine gun).

By the way, long fist performed slowly is also incorrect. One time I did my LF form in slow speed, my LF teacher walked over to me and said, "It's better not to train your LF at all then to train your LF in slow speed."

There are some trade off there. A good product is not the product that has 0 defeat. It's the product that's the most affordable and with the least amount of defeats. The best CMA training is not trying to do everything 100% perfect but to do it in "combat speed" with the least amount of errors.

The PM system uses the opposite training method as the Taiji system does (slow training). It produces different result. Old saying said, "When a mantis attacks, it doesn't stop".

[Oso]

just one......

[Tensei85]

I'm more partial to 1 or 2 long forms (as mentioned before) that way it can be perfected over time and have a lot of material ingrained in the set. As opposed to 50 or more small forms, but I enjoy that as well.

[JackNate]

I don't practice Hung Kuen, but their "Lau Gar" set seems like the perfect length for a class full of students to drill through.

[AdrianK]

I just believe that some of the "quality" in a Mantis set is the speed of the movement. Mantis performed slowly is incorrect for application and will not work.

It honestly goes without saying that speed is important in every system.

Speed being a factor in how correct a form or set is, is ridiculous though. Am I more *correct* because I am physically more gifted? How does that make any sense?

[golden arhat]

from one thing know ten thousand things
make forms about that principle. one move, variations on that move, and the way to generate power while doing it which can transfer into other things you want to do

easy assimilation of knowledge helps for better fighting.

[bawang]

i think how long a form depends on the student. you learn one technique at a time, how long ur form gets depend on u

[mawali]

Nothing difficult about that!

I hit someone, elbow to ribs/ body. snake creeps down (fireman's carry) and slam to the ground. 4 moves give or take 2-3 add a kick and total=9. Even a 108 form has 37-42 'unique' variations and the rest is just repetition.
I do not believe in forms per se but concepts and principles as expressed in shuaijiao, judo or similar art has a lot more utility and function.

[Tensei85]

Its not ridiculous at all, tai chi sets all have a prescribed time frame in which they should be completed, usually with a few minute window. So some can move a little slower or a little faster, but in general everyone should finish around the same time. That would be the prescribed pace of the set.

Mantis has the same idea, but your window is reduced to a few seconds.

Beng Bu is 35-45 seconds.

Tang Lang Chu Dong is 50-60 seconds.

Hmmm,
That's interesting. I never heard of a prescribed time period for any Mantis sets other than the Shi Ba Luo Han Qi Gong form which lasts apprx. 1 hour.

But I guess it could be correct, now I'll have to see how long it takes me... :)

[Yum Cha]

Forms should be...?

Thats where I begin to think, hey, alot of forms are different.

Long ones up and down on the ground for strength, stamina and aerobic conditioning.
Short sprints of forms to build twitch reflex and anarobic conditioning.

Narrow focus medium forms that focus on a set of unique skills

Endlessly repetitive forms form training and meditation
Short combos for fighting techniques

Smooth fast round ones
rough choppy linear ones
slow relaxing warm down ones


I'm SO confused...

[Lucas]

then you also have things such as wu bu quan that, if you want, you can loop endlessly untill you just cant move any longer.

imo its situational/circumstantial

[wetwonder]

Should have added one more option to the poll:

- don't understand the question.


Guess I'm too much of a rookie.

[AdrianK]

Its not ridiculous at all, tai chi sets all have a prescribed time frame in which they should be completed, usually with a few minute window. So some can move a little slower or a little faster, but in general everyone should finish around the same time. That would be the prescribed pace of the set.

Mantis has the same idea, but your window is reduced to a few seconds.

Beng Bu is 35-45 seconds.

Tang Lang Chu Dong is 50-60 seconds.

No, its ridiculous because if this is for fighting, you should be training to execute these movements to the best of your abilities to begin with.

There should be no pace other than the pace that your body and mind works at. To go any slower is counter-productive, it slows everything down.

Thats not to say you should rush through every movement, every movement should be done correctly of course and everything should be fluid, but there is no logical reason for going any slower than that, unless you're going to go slow to understand the movements better, and not to improve your fighting ability directly.

Logically it just doesn't make any sense to set a specific pace that you must adhere to.

Martial arts is riddled with these stupid, nonsensical rules that logically just don't make any sense. Its old and outdated knowledge conflicting with modern understanding.

[AdrianK]

I dont know what to say, I like the old outdated knowledge and feel the modern understanding is lacking in depth.

Lacking in depth? Do you even understand what modern understanding entails? Perhaps I should specify.

Our understanding of the way the world works, today, is not only built on that old understanding, but it has surpassed it incredibly. It is the reason why people do not believe the world is flat, that the sun is a god, or that earth is the center of the universe.

Modern understanding is all of the knowledge we've gained since then, put into action to understand our world.

And it lacks depth? Do you even understand what you're saying? Thats thousands of years of human development you're saying "lacks depth". Did you even go to school?



But I guess I am just being stupid and nonsensical trying to master a legendary 350 year old fighting art.

Pretty much. "Mastery" is so ludicrous when it comes to martial arts. A belt or certificate or even a complete knowledge and ability to recite, doesn't impart mastery on someone.

Stylistic constraints aren't mastery. Once you understand that your precious "style" is nothing more than concepts and templates, and that there is no such thing as style when it comes to the human expression of fighting, you'll get that at a certain point with any teacher, you are indeed wasting your time.




I should probably just give it up and work on my ground and pound.

Your sarcastic point makes no sense. I never said you should go train MMA or ground and pound. The point is to question why you're doing something that makes no sense from any legitimate viewpoint.

Old ways aren't always the best ways, given our knowledge on the way our body and mind works, which is FAR SUPERIOR to that of 350 years ago.

[AdrianK]

Everything always turns into an argument, and I'm sure if we were in the room together everything would remain cordial and we would see eye to eye on a lot of things, and the things we didn't could be more easily discussed in a free flowing natural manner. But as this is the internets I am merely going to post this.

I enjoy the argument, I feel its incredibly beneficial to martial arts. I've had discussions and arguments with good friends and still do over martial arts. Everyone has their own opinions, ideas, and personal view of the world. Its always good to get new perspectives and no one is ever going to agree on everything... But everyone involved learns from it, and there's never any hard feelings.

But the reason I think argument specifically is very important is because too many people have deep-rooted ideas that they either haven't explored in-depth, are baseless or incorrect. The knowledge you derive from these can be forged in the fire of passionate debate.

[wetwonder]

Stylistic constraints aren't mastery. Once you understand that your precious "style" is nothing more than concepts and templates, and that there is no such thing as style when it comes to the human expression of fighting, you'll get that at a certain point with any teacher, you are indeed wasting your time.


You've OBVIOUSLY never seen Jackie Chan in the film "Snake in the Eagle's Shadow," where Jackie's cat/snake hybrid style proved far superior to Jang Lee Hwang's Eagle claw style.

Or Martial Club, were Gordon Liu's Hung Gar was far superior to Johnny Wang Lung-wei's Mantis style.

You must study more KF cinema before you can have an informed viewpoint:p.

[AdrianK]

You've OBVIOUSLY never seen Jackie Chan in the film "Snake in the Eagle's Shadow," where Jackie's cat/snake hybrid style proved far superior to Jang Lee Hwang's Eagle claw style.

Or Martial Club, were Gordon Liu's Hung Gar was far superior to Johnny Wang Lung-wei's Mantis style.

You must study more KF cinema before you can have an informed viewpoint:p.

:eek: Forgive me ignorance, Sifu :D

[B-Rad]

Forms have many different purposes. Some are short fighting combinations of a few techniques (or even just one technique). Some are long catalogs of techniques that are then later broken down. Some are for performance. Some combine martial arts techniques and qigong or are just qigong. Many different types of forms out there. As for intensity, science has shown that varying intensities in training can have big benefits in sports. I don't see why martial arts is any different.

[Hardwork108]

how long a form/routine should be?

As long as it takes (to achieve the purpose it was designed for).;)