So I just got back from Shaolin Temple the other day...

[sha0lin1]

and what an awesome experience it was. I have read a lot on here about what peoples perceptions of what Shaolin Temple is and I can tell you that a lot of what people believe about it is very far from the truth. Since the sun comes up in China at 4:00 in the morning, our days started very early with a run up the mountain at 5:00pm. We went with our master who placed our training in the hands of his brother Shi Yan Wen who just smoked us on the run. We trained from 4 to 5 hours each day at the Temple and let me tell you that it was probably one of the most intense training experiences we have had. At the end we had to test our skills in front of our masters Shi Yan Wen, Shi Yong Zeng, and Shi Xing Jiou. They were impressed that we could pick up the forms we were taught in such a short amount of time, we learned three complete forms there that we were told would ordinarilly take the monks about six months to learn. We were sore, tired, and homesick to some extent the whole time but it was incredible. My discipleship ceremony was one of the coolest experiences I have ever had. And I am very proud to say that I am now a 33rd Generation Shaolin Warrior Disciple.

Sincerely,

The martial artist formely known as Sha0lin1
Shi Yong Ji

[Tensei85]

Congrats!

A few questions though:

Did you practice any San Da training at all? Anything other than forms, Qi gong?

Also what were the pre-requisites for the bai si?

Was there a large/small fee involved for the bai si or just the lai si involved.

Did they require you to seek refuge as a Buddhist?

Just wondering,

Thanks

[TenTigers]

did you learn applications, drill them and learn actual usage? Or did you simply collect forms?
How much did it cost to learn three forms in how many days?
Which forms did you learn?
What are you going to do with them?
Now that you are an official shaolin disciple, are you going to teach others?
How long did you train and in which art before you went to the temple?
Do you see where this is headed?

[sha0lin1]

In response to the questions from Tensei and Ten Tigers. We did not practice San Da, just learned three forms, Double Broadsword, Tamo Cane, and a San Jie Gun, or 3 sectional staff over about 10 days of training. Three days of our two weeks were spent touring and sightseeing. We did not practice San Da but I saw lots of it going on, in the Temple and outside the Temple at the other schools. Our master teaches us San Da so I have some experience in this already. Our master also teaches us Qi Gong so I also have experience with that.

Not sure what you mean by Bai Si and Lai Si could you translate your understanding of those words to me. I assume the Si means Temple, but the translations for the Bai and Lai that I know are confusing me.

There is a fee involved if you wish to train at the Temple. Since our Master is a Monk we were able to avoid paying what most would pay since our training was being overseen by one of his brothers that he grew up with. However, if you wish to train there, there are many travel services that are available to you that can put together packages. You can train from 1 week to 1 year if you want. There were only a few foreigners there that we met besides us, some were there for four months and some were there for 6 months. Only a few were accepted as students by monks, the rest were training with Tagou School. The cost for our trip was a fraction of what I have seen other schools go for and included air fare, hotel, some guide services, and food and drink. The Shaolin Temple provided us with uniforms and weapons. Our masters brothers were very gracious and provided us with toilet paper and water also. Toilet paper seems to be a very hot commodity in China. It definitley helps to have inside connections. They did not require us to become buddhists although to be a disciple you have to take some buddhist vows the most serious of which is to defend Shaolin Temple when called upon, not to kill, to be generous and virtuous towards the poor, etc.

The applications of the forms we learned were taught to us if they weren't obvious. If we didn't know an application or if it wasn't taught all we had to do was ask our master and he would show us. Our master made sure that of the two masters that trained us, we were in the best hands, both had won titles in the weapons they were teaching us. The forms that we learned will be put into practice in my personal training, demos for our school, and training for others. That is what I will do with them. I have been a disciple of my Master for many years now and he gave me the opportunity to open my school and teach 3 years ago after about 2 years helping him in his school. I have been a student of my Master for almost 8 years now. My master is a monk from Shaolin Temple so my style is Song Shan Shaolin. Although I have also studied Tae Kwan Do, Shorin Ryu Karate, and did a stint with Shaoin Do for about 5 years.

[Tensei85]

here's a link for the Bai si or Bai Shi ceremony:

It has a lot of other info there so you may have to sift through it:

http://www.wingtsjun.com/uploads/media/Discipleship_ceremonies_01.pdf


Lai Si or Hong Bao "红包" Red envelope



Thanks,

[sha0lin1]

here's a link for the Bai si or Bai Shi ceremony:

It has a lot of other info there so you may have to sift through it:

http://www.wingtsjun.com/uploads/media/Discipleship_ceremonies_01.pdf


Lai Si or Hong Bao "红包" Red envelope



Thanks,

The ceremony that we did was called Lu You Tuang. I read through your link and it was very similar to what is described there with a couple of differences. We first bowed to the Buddha three times, then prostrated ourselves three times in front of the buddha, then took the vows of discipleship, then bowed to our master three times. We did not make an offering of a red envelope but made a donation to Shaolin Temple which was placed on the plate in front of the Buddha.

[Tensei85]

The ceremony that we did was called Lu You Tuang. I read through your link and it was very similar to what is described there with a couple of differences. We first bowed to the Buddha three times, then prostrated ourselves three times in front of the buddha, then took the vows of discipleship, then bowed to our master three times. We did not make an offering of a red envelope but made a donation to Shaolin Temple which was placed on the plate in front of the Buddha.

huh... thats interesting. Because before you had said that they didn't require you to seek refuge as a Buddhist but the ceremony described is similar to how one would become a Buddhist. lol, thats great though!

p.s. not saying your wrong in anyway, just comparing and gathering info.


Thanks,

[sha0lin1]

huh... thats interesting. Because before you had said that they didn't require you to seek refuge as a Buddhist but the ceremony described is similar to how one would become a Buddhist. lol, thats great though!

p.s. not saying your wrong in anyway, just comparing and gathering info.


Thanks,

It was very interesting. I wish my Mandarin was a lot better though, so I could have understood a lot more of what was being said. Our master did a pretty good job of explaining things to us but in a very concise way. I see that you are from Michigan, I am originally from Port Huron, which part are you from?

[GeneChing]

I'll note that some heshang find the use of Shi as a surname by disciples inappropriate. Some feel that is only reserved for fully indoctrinated monks.

As for discipleship rituals, it's very similar to a Buddhist taking refuge ceremony. There are some additional Confucian elements that are more akin to discipleship ceremonies in Chinese martial arts in general. There are distinctions however, between taking refuge and the wenseng tudi ritual. It is possible to take Shaolin disciple vows and not be Buddhist, but it does involve bowing to the Buddha, so many of the more strict religions like Catholics and Muslims would not be able to do it and stay true to their own beliefs.

[Lucas]

very cool. sounds like a blast!

thanks for sharing your experience.

[LFJ]

I'll note that some heshang find the use of Shi as a surname by disciples inappropriate. Some feel that is only reserved for fully indoctrinated monks.

do you know of any other monasteries in chinese buddhist traditions where the laity have the surname "shi", or are allowed to wear the monastic robes?

[sha0lin1]

I'll note that some heshang find the use of Shi as a surname by disciples inappropriate. Some feel that is only reserved for fully indoctrinated monks.

As for discipleship rituals, it's very similar to a Buddhist taking refuge ceremony. There are some additional Confucian elements that are more akin to discipleship ceremonies in Chinese martial arts in general. There are distinctions however, between taking refuge and the wenseng tudi ritual. It is possible to take Shaolin disciple vows and not be Buddhist, but it does involve bowing to the Buddha, so many of the more strict religions like Catholics and Muslims would not be able to do it and stay true to their own beliefs.

Thanks Gene. I consider it quite an honor. One that will, no doubt, stay with me for a life time. It was a life changing experience being there and taking part in everything for me. A piece of me, or many pieces, actually, and some blood too, stayed at Shaolin. My brother Yong Xiang left many more pieces and much more blood than I did though. I miss it and cannot wait to go back. I am indebted to my Masters for the care and compassion they showed us while we were there. I was raised Catholic and interestingly enough, there were a lot of similarities in ritual. It was almost akin to recieving your first communion, or your confirmation.

[richard sloan]

I don't think you have any problem being a Catholic and 'Buddhist.'

First of all, the catechism states that works and not sola fide is the path for Catholics to understand and commune with God. Catholics- according to their catechism- believe that anyone can reach God, even non Catholics. It is one of the big points of contention between protestant and Evangelicals and Catholics- I've even heard some of them say Catholics are not 'Christian' if you can believe it.

Nobody in Shaolin considers Buddha to be a God, so you are good on that. Buddha claimed agnosticism.

In fact, there is usually a lot of bending over backwards to accommodate Ch'an, Zen, and Catholicism and despite the New Age attempts, there is already a more traditional convergence that has been explored and worked on, and pretty pretty deep monastic tradition in both, especially with so called engaged and mendicant monastics- so we should expect to find a lot of common ground. Reading some of the texts it seems clear as well why people find commonality. Also a lot of books on zen, although slightly different than Ch'an, bear the nihil obstat and imprimatur.

We actually host a Shaolin/Ch'an retreat at a Catholic Monastery, sometimes two times a year.

Thomas Merton conducted a very famous exchange and developed a friendship with Thich Nat Hahn, for example, even offering him communion.

On our visits to Mexico we have met with the Arch-Bishop there and exchanged gifts, conversed, and received a blessing from him on the main altar, it was very interesting. Also interesting was a private viewing of the famous icon there.

Anyway, congrats, Amitabha.

_/__

[GeneChing]

...by 'we' I mean at my old Bak Sil Lum school under Wing Lam. Among Wing Lam's diverse array of skills, he was a talented carpenter - self taught, no less - and he constructed a magnificent altar by hand in his school. If you watch his videos or most of the articles on him during that period, you'll see it in the background. My first article ever was about that altar and its symbolism. Mind you, it wasn't a Buddhist altar specifically. It was a Guan Gong altar. Nevertheless, we lost several students because of it and all of them were Catholic except for one, who was Muslim. I remember one Catholic specifically - he was with us for a few months and was showing some promising talent. During one lesson, he asked me what the altar was. I answered and the light went out of his eyes. He said "I'm Catholic. There can be no God before mine. I can't be here anymore" and he walked straight out of the school, never to come back.

Of course, this is just my subjective experience, but I'd say over the 20+ years that I was under Wing Lam, we lost a few dozen students.

Lay disciples often wear robes during ceremonies and even during zuochan in many Buddhist sects, not just Chinese. I have zen robes from when I took refuge with S.F. zen, and have the option to wear them whenever I please, but I seldom do. As for the shi moniker in other Chinese Buddhist sects, I'm not sure. Or maybe I should say 'I'm not shi' ;)

[richard sloan]

Wow!

Well, believe me, I know and have met a lot of Catholics that don't really know a lot about their faith- even Priests!

I'd love to see that altar.

[richard sloan]

if it happens again, you can point him to:

http://monasticdialog.com

and tell them to check out the Nostra Aetate from Vatican II. I think it was Vatican II.

[rage911]

Hey Yong Ji (a.k.a. Sca), I thought I'd give you an update. My thumb is still ****ed up but all my cuts healed. I made the 3 section my ***** after getting real sick Friday and Saturday. Another week and Ill tape it and have Shifu send it to Yan Wen. Were you worse (****ting your brains out) back home or over there?

That trip was Boom Bangin! 2 years and counting!

Peace out

Yong Xiang

[LFJ]

Lay disciples often wear robes during ceremonies and even during zuochan in many Buddhist sects, not just Chinese.

but those are robes specifically for laity. the chinese lay robes for ceremonies are called haiqing- usually black with super wide sleeves.

The monastic robes- with smaller sleeves, and a distinct double collar, usually in colors of oranges and grays- are never worn by the laity.

meditation clothes for laypeople look like the monastic "work" clothes, that button down in front, but again, the secular meditation clothing is without the double collar that is worn by monastics.


As for the shi moniker in other Chinese Buddhist sects, I'm not sure. Or maybe I should say 'I'm not shi' ;)

you are shi either way. :)

i've heard of laity with the shi surname in northeastern china, but have not confirmed that any of them are from traditions other than shaolin.

most decide that it is reserved for fully ordained monastics, because they leave home to join shakyamuni's sangha of renunciates, and therefore adopt his surname.

while laity have not detached from responsibilities of the secular life. they have not left home, and so should not adopt the surname of renunciates. otherwise, the name alone can be misleading if monastics and laity are not clearly distinguished. even more so if laypeople are wearing monastic clothing.

after all, the shaved head and castoff rags were originally the look of all the buddha's ordained followers for that very purpose- to distinguish them from worldly folk who have not left home, easily identifiable as followers of the buddha.

its an interesting question why it is, and apparently only, permissible in shaolin tradition for laypeople to take the shi surname and wear monastic clothing.

[sha0lin1]

Hey Yong Ji (a.k.a. Sca), I thought I'd give you an update. My thumb is still ****ed up but all my cuts healed. I made the 3 section my ***** after getting real sick Friday and Saturday. Another week and Ill tape it and have Shifu send it to Yan Wen. Were you worse (****ting your brains out) back home or over there?

That trip was Boom Bangin! 2 years and counting!

Peace out

Yong Xiang

Hey Panda, or should I say Xiong Mao. Wish they would have named you Yong Xiong mao. Definitely worse over there. That seems to have all cleared up as of today. My biological clock is still somewhat off though. The trip was the shiznit, I miss Shaolin already. Can't wait to go back. Shifu's going again for X-mas or maybe the Chinese New Year, if I can swing it maybe I will go too.

[Lokhopkuen]

and what an awesome experience it was. I have read a lot on here about what peoples perceptions of what Shaolin Temple is and I can tell you that a lot of what people believe about it is very far from the truth. Since the sun comes up in China at 4:00 in the morning, our days started very early with a run up the mountain at 5:00pm. We went with our master who placed our training in the hands of his brother Shi Yan Wen who just smoked us on the run. We trained from 4 to 5 hours each day at the Temple and let me tell you that it was probably one of the most intense training experiences we have had. At the end we had to test our skills in front of our masters Shi Yan Wen, Shi Yong Zeng, and Shi Xing Jiou. They were impressed that we could pick up the forms we were taught in such a short amount of time, we learned three complete forms there that we were told would ordinarilly take the monks about six months to learn. We were sore, tired, and homesick to some extent the whole time but it was incredible. My discipleship ceremony was one of the coolest experiences I have ever had. And I am very proud to say that I am now a 33rd Generation Shaolin Warrior Disciple.

Sincerely,

The martial artist formely known as Sha0lin1
Shi Yong Ji

Awesome! Thank you for sharing!

[Lokhopkuen]

...by 'we' I mean at my old Bak Sil Lum school under Wing Lam. Among Wing Lam's diverse array of skills, he was a talented carpenter - self taught, no less - and he constructed a magnificent altar by hand in his school. If you watch his videos or most of the articles on him during that period, you'll see it in the background. My first article ever was about that altar and its symbolism. Mind you, it wasn't a Buddhist altar specifically. It was a Guan Gong altar. Nevertheless, we lost several students because of it and all of them were Catholic except for one, who was Muslim. I remember one Catholic specifically - he was with us for a few months and was showing some promising talent. During one lesson, he asked me what the altar was. I answered and the light went out of his eyes. He said "I'm Catholic. There can be no God before mine. I can't be here anymore" and he walked straight out of the school, never to come back.

Of course, this is just my subjective experience, but I'd say over the 20+ years that I was under Wing Lam, we lost a few dozen students.

Lay disciples often wear robes during ceremonies and even during zuochan in many Buddhist sects, not just Chinese. I have zen robes from when I took refuge with S.F. zen, and have the option to wear them whenever I please, but I seldom do. As for the shi moniker in other Chinese Buddhist sects, I'm not sure. Or maybe I should say 'I'm not shi' ;)

How narrow the mind?

[Pk_StyLeZ]

I jealous...i wish i coulda gone to the shaolin temple wit master shi xing ying and train inside the temple.....

when i went with master shi de shan..it sucked....barly got to see the temple.....trained at some school that wasnt even that impressive honestly...=(

i jealousssssssssssssssssss
glad u had a nice trip..got any pictures of videos?

[sha0lin1]

Hey Pk,

I took lots of pictures and video. You can see some on my myspace....

http://www.myspace.com/scottshaolin

[Pk_StyLeZ]

Hey Pk,

I took lots of pictures and video. You can see some on my myspace....

http://www.myspace.com/scottshaolin

nice
you know damo cane form?
i love that weapon...i want to buy a new damo cane my self, the one i have is like just for practice. the hammer part is like made of rubber..i want a wooden one and stronger one!
i will look at the videos later, kind of busy. look like you had fun, i miss going up that mountain!
thx for sharing!

[Raipizo]

Ha man i wish to go someday when i live on my own i'm still in highschool.

[Tensei85]

It was very interesting. I wish my Mandarin was a lot better though, so I could have understood a lot more of what was being said. Our master did a pretty good job of explaining things to us but in a very concise way. I see that you are from Michigan, I am originally from Port Huron, which part are you from?

Hey, sorry for late reply. I'm from the Bay City area, pretty close to Flint but around 2 hours North of Detroit.

Again, that sounds like an awesome experience.

[sha0lin1]

I forgot to mention in my first post that we kept having lucky things happening to us while we were there. Gene you will love this. One morning as we were going down for training. Shi Deyang was in front of the Temple with a few of his students and a film crew, I guess they were shooting a documentary. We got to watch and film as he demonstrated his favorite form, Da Hong Quan, and Lo Han Quan Er Lu, and take pictures of him as he posed on the steps of the Temple. Afterwards we got to meet him and take pictures with him ourselves. You know, from the videos I have of him I thought he always looks very serious and kind of a hard a@#, but in person he is very friendly and smiling all the time, very down to earth, a real nice guy.