To WCK practitioners: Who burned down the Fujian Shaolin?

[chusauli]

According to legends, Kang Xi burned down the Shaolin (and the Northern Song Shan temple, at that!).

Grandmaster Yip Man wrote:

"During the reign of Emperor Kangxi of the Qing Dynasty (1662-1722) fighting skills became very strong in the Shaolin Monastary of Songshan, in Henan Province. This aroused the fear of the Manchurian government, which sent troops to attack the Monastery. Although they were unsuccessful, a man named Chan Man-Wai, a recently appointed civil servant seeking favor with the government, suggested a plan. He plotted with Shaolin monk named Ma Ning-Yee and others who were persuaded to betray their companions by setting fire to the monastery while soldiers attacked it from the outside. Shaolin was burned down, and the monks and disciples scattered. Ng Mui, Jee Shim, Bak Mei, Fung Do-Dak and Miu Hin escaped and went their separate ways."

But in history, there is no mention:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/311006/Kangxi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_Emperor


So who burned down the Fujian Shaolin?

[chusauli]

Who burned down the Fujian Shaolin?

According to WCK legends, Emperor Kang Xi burned down the Shaolin (and the Northern Song Shan temple, at that!). This led to the rise of the Southern Fist legends.

Grandmaster Yip Man wrote:

"During the reign of Emperor Kangxi of the Qing Dynasty (1662-1722) fighting skills became very strong in the Shaolin Monastary of Songshan, in Henan Province. This aroused the fear of the Manchurian government, which sent troops to attack the Monastery. Although they were unsuccessful, a man named Chan Man-Wai, a recently appointed civil servant seeking favor with the government, suggested a plan. He plotted with Shaolin monk named Ma Ning-Yee and others who were persuaded to betray their companions by setting fire to the monastery while soldiers attacked it from the outside. Shaolin was burned down, and the monks and disciples scattered. Ng Mui, Jee Shim, Bak Mei, Fung Do-Dak and Miu Hin escaped and went their separate ways."

But in history, there is no mention:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/311006/Kangxi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_Emperor


So who burned down the Fujian Shaolin?

_________________
Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac., QME
chusauli@gmail.com

[Shaolinlueb]

the chinese did it :eek:

[doug maverick]

Who burned down the Fujian Shaolin?

According to WCK legends, Emperor Kang Xi burned down the Shaolin (and the Northern Song Shan temple, at that!). This led to the rise of the Southern Fist legends.

Grandmaster Yip Man wrote:

"During the reign of Emperor Kangxi of the Qing Dynasty (1662-1722) fighting skills became very strong in the Shaolin Monastary of Songshan, in Henan Province. This aroused the fear of the Manchurian government, which sent troops to attack the Monastery. Although they were unsuccessful, a man named Chan Man-Wai, a recently appointed civil servant seeking favor with the government, suggested a plan. He plotted with Shaolin monk named Ma Ning-Yee and others who were persuaded to betray their companions by setting fire to the monastery while soldiers attacked it from the outside. Shaolin was burned down, and the monks and disciples scattered. Ng Mui, Jee Shim, Bak Mei, Fung Do-Dak and Miu Hin escaped and went their separate ways."

But in history, there is no mention:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/311006/Kangxi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_Emperor


So who burned down the Fujian Shaolin?

_________________
Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac., QME
chusauli@gmail.com

no offense but, why is this posted in this section? think you'll get more traffic in the wing chun or southern kung fu section then the pop culture section.

[GeneChing]

time to move this thread there...

[chusauli]

I had it here in the first place...LOL!

[Hardwork108]

Sometimes I get the feeling that it was one of T Niehoff's ancestors who burnt down the Shaolin Temple....LOL.

It might even have been him in a previous encarnation.;)

I guess we might never know the real story.

[chusauli]

Yes, it was the Red and Black checkered flag WCK people who burned down the temple. :)

If history recorded the burning of the Fujian Shaolin, we would have some historical reference for the founding of the 5 elders of Southern Shaolin or even the origin of the Tian Di Hui and Hung Mun...if it was all fantasy, then what was the movement that led to the founding of these 2 traditions?

[hskwarrior]

According to traditional triad history, the Qing Empire burned down the Fujian Shaolin Temple on Gau Lin San. It's stated that one of the emperor's officials was jealous of the fame the Shaolin Monks received. So he brainwashed the emperor that if the Monks were the only ones to defeat the XILU then how easy would it be to defeat the empire if they wanted. So the Emperor ordered the temple destroyed and all in it killed.

now, new documents are leading researchers to believe that the Heaven and Earth society was really founded sometime in the early to mid 1700's. The Hung Mun (5 Ancestors) are fourth in line on the Heaven, Earth and Man society family tree. The actual Hung Mun (as founded by the 5 shaolin monks) is believed to have been established around 1799.

Therefore, it's my theory so far that somewhere between 1750 and 1800 the southern shaolin temple was destroyed. Once that happened, the Hung Mun wasn't exactly established right away. they moved around for a while. then once the Hung Mun was formed, 5 different lodges were established in 5 different regions of china.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It was Hitler and the Nazi's who burned down the Fujian Shaolin temple.

Oh wait, that was the Reichstag they burned down - and Hitler blamed it on the communists.

Aha! That's it. It was Chairman Mao who burned them both down. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

now you done let the cat out the bag!!!!!!:D

[chusauli]

hskwarrior,

My question is to ask which emperor burned it down...as we don't have any historical record, which would indicate its most likely a fable...

A mainland documentary showed there were 3 possible locations for the Fujian Shaolin, but not sure...

...so who burned it, or is it just myth?

[hskwarrior]

Given Name: Hónglì 弘曆

Post Humous name: 純帝 Chúndì
Yongkiyangga hūwangdi



Temple name: 高宗 Gāozōng

Reign name: 乾隆 Abkai wehiyehe

Reign Years :1735-1796

(died 1799)6

Name commonly known by: Qianlong Emperor

[hskwarrior]

"With the monks back in their monastery, the grand secretary of the Qing council, Wong Chun Mei, became jealous of the honours offered to them and the position bestowed on Cheng Kwan Tat. Fired by envy, Wong set about sowing doubts in the emperor's mind. If, Wong reasoned, this small band of monks had been so successful where the imperial foces had failed, surley they might just as readily turn against the emperor as defend him. He argued that the reason they had declinded their honours was because their main intention was to raise an army agaist the throne. The emperor was persuaded by the logic of this arguement and becasme so fearful thta he ordered Cheung Kin Chau, the provincial high commissioner of fujian province, and Chan Man Yiu, the magistrate of Po Ting district to destroy the Shaolin monastery and all its inhabitants. he further ordered Cheung Kwan Tat's execution.

The monastery was strategically situated on a tall hill. A surprise attack was impossible. Furthermore, the hill was reputed to be honeycombed with tunnels by which the monks would be able to escape were there monastery stormed. It was decided the best course of action was to drug the monks then kill them. However, in case the play went awry, all exits from the monastery would have to be guarded: this meant the entrances to the tunnels would have to be located. Chan Man Yiu, disguised as a peasant, wandered the nearby villages to glean information.

Chan met and befriended a coolie and learned that he had been a monk in the Shaolin monastery. On further investigation, he discovered that the coolie, Ma Yee Fuk (man ning yee) had been ranked seventh among the monks in martial ability, but had been cast out because he had made advances to Cheng Kwan tat's wife and sister, and had broked the Man Nin Po Tang, a sacred lamp presented to the monastery by the Persian government. His shaven head marking him as a disgraced monk, he had been unable to obtain fitting work, and was reduced to living as a common labourer. Embittered by his excommunication, Ma was ready for revenge and, when Chan Man Yiu admitted his identity, agreed to assist in the attack on the monastery. Chan promised him imperial honours and favours. Ma showed him the whereabouts of the tunnels and the paths leading from them. Finally, Chan requested that Ma swear his expulsion from the monastery had been caused by his refusal tp join the monks' conspiracy against the emperor. Ma conceded.

With the traitor's inside knowledge, troops under the command of High Commissioner Cheung Kin Chau were placed at all the secret exits. Others hid near the main gates, to seal them when the signal was given. All were supplied with inflammable material. Chan Man Yiu with a number of coolies carrying jars of drugged wine, openly announced that the wine was a personal gift from the emperor. He requested that the abbott and all the monks drink the emperor's wealth with it. The abbott, however, was suspicious and, testing the wine with a magic sword, found the blade changed colour. The monk, furious at the emperor's treachery, attacked Chan Man Yiu but he managed to escape. On seeing him flee, the troops advanced, igniting fires at the entrances to all the secret tunnels; they then set fire to the buildings.

One hundred ten monks perished in the fire. The remaining eighteen sought refuge in the main hall of the temple and there, before the image of Buddha, prayed for their deliverance. Their prayers were answered when a large yellow curtain hanging in the hall fell to cover them. It protected the monks from the flames but it and the smoke also smothered them so that they lost consciousness. When the Qing troops saw the walls of the building collapse, and could see no sign of life within them, they assumed their task was done and retreated.

When the 18 survivors came to, they found themselves trapped in the ruins. One of the number, however, Tsai Te Chung, knocked a hole in the monastery wall, through which they managed to make their getaway. The entire hill was alight, but they rany over the burning grass, the smoke concealing them. Slipping through the military lines, they travelled to Ting Shan, nearby Sheung Yeung City, Hupei province. There, thirteen of them died from their burns and wounds or from lack of food. They were cremated, their ashes wrapped in several bundles and retained for safekeeping by the 5 remaining survivors: Tsai Te Chung, Fong Tai Hung, Ma Chiu Hing, Wu Tak Tai, and Lee Sik Hoi."

[monji112000]

So who burned down the Fujian Shaolin?
I don't know who??

The jews?? Osama? Ben layden? Oh I know it was Bush right??

Did shaolin really exist? I know of one or two monasteries.. but honestly how old are they? this isn't the movies..

[chusauli]

hskwarrior,

I do not see where Qian Long ordered the burning of the Fujian Shaolin in history. Perhaps you could give me some historical reference. The Hung Mun story you shared with us gives us the fable of Ma Ning Yee, the traitor who allegedly led the Qing to destroy it. But which emperor ordered it?

Notice the venerable 5 survivors are not the same of southern fist.

Hitler, Nazis, Osama, Mao, although all considered possibilities, reflect an anarchronism. :)

My point here is the fable which many take as true, has no direct reference. Even Yip Man's words were inaccurate.

[donbdc]

But who was general Tso?

[Yoshiyahu]

Whats the point of this thread?

Does anyone really know the answer to this question?

[chusauli]

That's the point: more fantasy?

Maybe the Fujian Shaolin wasn't burned by the Qing...

If not, who burned it?

Also, then what dramatic fire would give rise to the Tian Di Hui/Hung Mun and the Southern fist?

All creation myth?

See my point? That means all you've been fed was a farce...fairy tales for children...

History is more than a legend and story. This is such a simple question, but no one can answer it, so far.

Makes you think, huh? :confused:

[Hendrik]

Robert,


Translate the following, and you will see who is JeeShim and where is Shao lin and who are Shao Lin. where are all these His-story is from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1yih-p6uiw&feature=fvst



1823年，陳享投拜李家拳傳人李友山(新會七堡人）學習五形拳，棍法和腿功。1827年，陳享去羅浮山白 鶴觀拜蔡家拳傳人蔡福學習十字拳。1839年-1840年間，陳享協助林則徐訓練義勇水師。鴉片戰爭爆發，他的弟子投入廣州虎門水師衙門，英勇抗擊外來侵 略。

林則徐被免職後，陳享在1845年回到鄉間(新會崖西鎮京梅村)開設洪勝主館。於是開始有洪拳的名稱。後派 傳人往廣東各地開分館，前後共44所。

陳享善八卦拳亦精五形拳，留下達亭八卦拳（又稱172式五形八卦拳)。

鴉片戰爭後，廣東洪門組織聯合成為三合會，支援洪秀全，故洪門子弟又稱洪兵，他們的拳術為洪拳 。

太平天國敗亡後，三合會眾以少林子弟互稱，共尊南少林寺(福建莆田)為祖廟。而當時五個武術社團之主持則為 少林五老。故蔡李佛拳尊至善禪師為先祖。是南少林拳一種。


sorry there is no Shao lin, no JeeShim but his-story made after 1850's when Taiping collapse by five chinese martial arts association.

So where is WCK from? hahaha, WCK is just the art of the Opera Actors, and they join the taiping + Hung Mun uprising under Lee Mun-Mao that simple, isnt it?

[chusauli]

Very interesting story!

Chan Heung, CLF, Tai Ping Tian Guo, Hung Mun and Saam Hop Wui, propagators of the myth?

Amazing! What is the source? I have to check with the Chan family...

[Hendrik]

Very interesting story!

Chan Heung, CLF, Tai Ping Tian Guo, Hung Mun and Saam Hop Wui, propagators of the myth?

Amazing! What is the source? I have to check with the Chan family...



1,
It is clear now that the Hung army is not the Hung Army of Ming Dynasty. But the Hung Army of Taiping.

2, CLF is the lead one the TOP guy in the 1850 uprising where Taiping and Hung Mun join operation. As we know, the Yik Kam code up to the Shang Hai are justified this.


3, The Red bandana is the under Lee Man-Mau.


4, Jee Shim in the 1850 period of time means Chan Huen. Shao lin means Taiping and Hung mun join operation and NOT the art from Shao Lin.


5, whoever involve with this Taiping-Hung mun join operation got to related to CLF. Now you can explain why is Cho family called CLF Choy gar HUNG KUEN. and Why is Cho family has CLF art beside Yik Kam's WCK. Cho is in Poon Yee so we know they involve.



We know it but it is just some doesnt want to face reality.

Thus, the Red and Black Flag theory doesnt hold water. Why? because they got nothing to do with CLF. NO relationship at all.

You see, CLF is the Key. But those making His-story not aware of it. Keeping thinking it is the 1700 stuffs thus the Tan sau Ng His-story is missing 100years or having a 100 years gap.


See, What most not suspect is CLF is the justifier of WCK and WCK's purity and debunk the Tan Sau Ng and Black or Red flag shao lin speculative his-story solidly.



They can make HIs-story but they can change history because they were not there in 1850, not create yet.


BTW:

NG Mui is Fang Chi-Naing's code name in the 1650's. Ng Mui is also White Crane practitioner's
Case over. Nick name in different period of time.

Such as Chan Hueng is Jee Shim in 1850.



CASE CLOSE.

[snakebyte8]

I'm afraid your all wrong, here's how it went down....the short version, enjoy!

One day a Greek caravan was passing through the mountains when they happened upon a most beautiful temple. As they were admiring the beauty of the temple, the monks decided to invite them in for refreshments. Well now the greeks just love to cook so they decided to make their special dish for the monks, Saganaki, the flaming cheese dish. When the Greeks presented the saganaki to the warrior monks the were in awe of the amazing dish being presented to them. When asked the name of this wonderful delight the greeks told them it was called Saganaki. The hall went silent, the monks thought the word Saganaki must be Japanese and were furious! The five elders were whispering something to each other and out of nowhere they all jumped up and kicked the flaming cheeses out of the hands of the poor greeks. The flaming cheese was everywhere, burning like some sort of medieval napalm.

So there you have it

CASE CLOSED

[li hudson]

1,
It is clear now that the Hung army is not the Hung Army of Ming Dynasty. But the Hung Army of Taiping.
The only thing that is more clear is that how could this be called 'clear' when it's being concluded by someone like you that is not a qualified historian nor has no credibility.



2, CLF is the lead one the TOP guy in the 1850 uprising where Taiping and Hung Mun join operation. As we know, the Yik Kam code up to the Shang Hai are justified this.
That is your speculation. You can say whatever you want about Yik Kam as that is your lineage, but speaking about other lineage and assuming certain thing based on your speculation as the truth that replacing their oral story told by their forefathers means disrespecting other lineage and can be taken as a challenge to every WCK lineage.



3, The Red bandana is the under Lee Man-Mau.
Once again, you have no credibility to say that and you're not a historian either. You are just behind keyboard a lot to surf internet.



4, Jee Shim in the 1850 period of time means Chan Huen. Shao lin means Taiping and Hung mun join operation and NOT the art from Shao Lin.
This means a BIG INSULT toward Chi Sim Wing Chun Lineage, as well as Hung Gar, as they both has their lineage came from Chi Sim, not the so called 'chan huen' as your 'his-story'



5, whoever involve with this Taiping-Hung mun join operation got to related to CLF. Now you can explain why is Cho family called CLF Choy gar HUNG KUEN. and Why is Cho family has CLF art beside Yik Kam's WCK. Cho is in Poon Yee so we know they involve.
Oh...now your HIS-STORY CHANGED again, not too long ago you insisted that it came from Black Crane ++ (+Ermei). Why your His-Story keep changing hendrik?

Do you even know what you're talking about ????

So let me guess, what's next ??
Green Crane+Wudang ???


We know it but it is just some doesnt want to face reality.
You're the one that doesn't want to face the reality.
a WCK lineage that trace their lineage from Ng Mui, means it came from Ng Mui Not Fang Chi Niang.
a WCK lineage that trace their lineage from Chi Sim, means it came from Chi Sim.
a WCK lineage that trace their lineage from Shaolin, means it came from Shaolin.

Leave it like that. Those are the TRUTH as it was told by our forefathers.....RESPECT THAT !!!

You can't use your stupid speculation TO REPLACE the TRUTH OF EVERY WCK's Lineage .
Speaking about other lineage and assuming certain thing based on your speculation as the truth that replacing their oral story told by their forefathers means disrespecting other lineage and can be taken as a challenge to every WCK lineage.


Thus, the Red and Black Flag theory doesnt hold water. Why? because they got nothing to do with CLF. NO relationship at all.

You see, CLF is the Key. But those making His-story not aware of it. Keeping thinking it is the 1700 stuffs thus the Tan sau Ng His-story is missing 100years or having a 100 years gap.


See, What most not suspect is CLF is the justifier of WCK and WCK's purity and debunk the Tan Sau Ng and Black or Red flag shao lin speculative his-story solidly.



They can make HIs-story but they can change history because they were not there in 1850, not create yet.


BTW:

Who cares about CLF (With no disrespect), There're many styles being practiced inside among secret socieities. CLF may be one. But WCK also exist.

If you keep saying 'to debunk' the Tan Sau Ng, red/black flag, using your stupid speculation, this means it is a BIG INSULT toward every lineage of WCK that trace back that to history.
speaking about other lineage and assuming certain thing based on your speculation as the truth that replacing their oral story told by their forefathers means disrespecting other lineage and can be taken as a challenge to every WCK lineage.

Are you really ready to face the consequences ? because what you're saying is their forefather who passed the history are liars.

Are you really ready ?


NG Mui is Fang Chi-Naing's code name in the 1650's. Ng Mui is also White Crane practitioner's

This also means an insult toward every WCK lineage that trace their lineage back to Ng Mui. Fang Chi Niang is White Crane's founder.
Ng Mui is Ng Mui. They are not the same person.

Speaking about other lineage and assuming certain thing based on your speculation as the truth that replacing their oral story told by their forefathers means disrespecting other lineage and can be taken as a challenge to every WCK lineage.


CASE IS DEFINETELY NOT CLOSED, YOU JUST OPEN A CAN OF WORM AS YOU DISRESPECT EVERY WCK LINEAGE THAT HAS THEIR HISTORY NOT THE SAME WITH YOUR "HIS-STORY"/SPECULATION...

Are you really ready to face the consequences ?
You are challenging:
Every WCK lineage that trace their history to Ng Mui, Chi Sim, Red Flag, HFY, Black Flag, as well as Hunggar style.
One of this day, somebody will stand up and make you pay for this.

[li hudson]

Very interesting story!

Chan Heung, CLF, Tai Ping Tian Guo, Hung Mun and Saam Hop Wui, propagators of the myth?

Amazing! What is the source? I have to check with the Chan family...

Should not be interesting 'story'. It should be "HIS-story" as pikachu suggested to every other WCK's lineage that doesn't have the same story as pikachu(stupid hendrik)'s theory of Black Crane++ (+Ermei)

Source ...? probably just google........(or Internet Which is also another 'his-story') never been done by a credible historian.

[Hendrik]

Should not be interesting 'story'. It should be "HIS-story" as pikachu suggested to every other WCK's lineage that doesn't have the same story as pikachu(stupid hendrik)'s theory of Black Crane++ (+Ermei)

Source ...? probably just google........(or Internet Which is also another 'his-story') never been done by a credible historian.




Go a head,

Share with us your CREDIBLE history,

make an introduction on who you are , who is your sifu, what is your lineage, and a multiple source verifiable tracking to 1850 on your lineage.

Until then you dont have a Credible position . That is reality.

[chusauli]

If anyone could simply step back from their identification with history and realize its not a stab to a lineage or tradition if we use critical judgement and try to analyze for objective truth.

For example, in Complete Wing Chun, it was said in the Pan Nam branch of WCK, that WCK is composed of Tai Ji, Tang Lang, Ying Jow, and Gum Gong Jeung. Upon analysis, we find that Tai Ji was undergoing development at the same time WCK was, so it is unlikely that it was used in the creation of WCK. There is no Tang Lang (Mantis) in WCK, despite a similarity to Southern Mantis. There are no Ying Jow (Eagle Claw) maneuvers, and especially since Ying Jow is primarily a Northern Fist, it does not resemble WCK, although there is a Southern Eagle Claw system... And finally, Gum Gong Jeung is a Shaolin art akin to iron palm - is that WCK? Its not a disrespect to Pan Nam or the followers, but rather it is questioning and analytically look at the claims.

Pao Fa Lien WCK is said to be derived fro a rare "Northern internal system". What does that mean? Does that mean it is Tai Ji, Xing Yi or Ba Gua? Does that mean WCK is Northern? Does WCK look like northern fist? Or does that mean PFL WCK looks like Northern fist? These are questions one has to look at.

Hendrik's presentation needs to be examined as well. There are at least members of the Chan Family who can ascertain and verify certain stories floating around...these are clues to look up and research. Its a first step. These at least are better than "take my word for it", "secret", etc., which cast doubt and suspicion...albeit intentionally or not intentionally (but if one believe in "karma")...

...it seems the myth of the Fujian Shaolin is one of those stories we have to take with a grain of salt...along with the Hung Fa Ting and 5 elders...

[SimonW]

A mainland documentary showed there were 3 possible locations for the Fujian Shaolin, but not sure...

...so who burned it, or is it just myth?

If you ask Stanley Henning, he asserts that the Fujian Shaolin temple was a myth invented by the Heaven and Earth Society as a recruitment gimmick. So I'd take it that the true scholarly research settles on this since there is no evidence whatsoever for a South Shaolin Temple, but that the myth has persisted due ignorant books, pulp novels, and texts on the subject. And not forgetting people who want to make money from it including tourism.

[chusauli]

Thank you Simon!

The idea is to get the WCK community to realize this.

WCK could not come from the Shaolin temple.

[SimonW]

Henning's article "Thoughts on Yongchun Boxing" published in Classical Fighting Arts is worth reading and sheds some possible light on the origins of Wing Chun, including a connection to General Qi Jiguang's 32 forms which had 'short hitting' as its core.

He also notes that a work called "Min (Fujian) Short Sketches" written in the 1600's by Zhou Lianggong references 'baida' or barehanded hitting as a custom in Fujian, and that this piece also notes that this was also known as Duanda 'short hitting'.

There are a number of interesting points raised in the article, in particular an entry in the Yong Chun County Gazetteer, a historical document written in the 1600's that references a woman called Ding Number Seven, who moved to Yong Chun with her husband and who taught a man called Zheng Li.

Henning notes that "Strange Tales From the Studio of Small Talk" was written at roughly the same period and contains a story that could have been the inspiration for the story of Wu Mei Dashi (Ng Mui) who first appeared in a late 19th century novel entitled Qianlong Tours The South (although he notes that Ng Mui may have already been a part of Heaven and Earth Mythology by that point).

There are more little asides and notes that make for a very interesting read.

[Hendrik]

RC,

This is who Chen Hueng was and what is his influence in the 1850, and the relationship to the Taiping and Dien Dei Hui from opium war to the down fall of Taiping and fleet to San Francisco....


1839年-1840年間，林則徐「禁煙」，陳享義不容辭，協助林則徐訓練義勇水師。鴉片戰爭爆發，他毅然率領眾弟子投 入廣州虎門水師衙門麾下，英勇抗擊外來侵略。因清政府屈膝投降，林則徐被貶，香港被割讓。他看透了滿清政府 的腐敗無能，帶眾弟子返回京梅村，抱著「以武強族」的信念，積極宣揚「吾技進可禦外侮，退則強身健魄」的主 張。一面傳授武技、一面策劃「洪聖」武館的組織發展，見時機成熟，於1845年在京梅設「洪聖總館」和「祖 師堂」，指派陳大楫、陳典桓、陳燕貽、龍子才等多名高徒分赴兩廣各地開設四十多間「蔡李佛洪聖 館」。


各地武館蓬勃發展之際，適逢太平天國運動興起，眾多蔡李佛弟子加入起義軍隊伍，例如馮雲山（太平天國南王） 等人成了「金田起義」的主將。陳享秘密協助其堂兄陳松年領導廣東「天地會」起義於江門狗山。1853年，太 平天國攻陷南京，曾國藩在各地徵募鄉勇。陳享深知自己曾是朝廷命官，恐被徵用，淪為鷹犬，遂與妻子黃氏攜幼 子安伯及官伯分別到南海、順德、中山、東莞等地躲避，借機弘揚首創的蔡李佛拳。


1856年，陳享赴太平天國翼王石達開處當幕客，協助訓練起義軍將士。「天京內訌」後，他辭別翼王返新 會。 不久，太平天國農民運動失敗，清政府追捕太平天國餘黨。陳享被逼逃往香港，輾轉南洋哈蒙、明古、吧城等埠， 以授拳行醫為生。



Here is another source on Chen Heung and Jee Shim who is his Sigung


1823年，陳享為求深造，經陳遠護推薦，投拜新會七堡人李友山（至善大師門徒）為師。李為當時廣東著名的 拳師，擅長棍法和腿功。




All of these are not to far away to be traced, and with Chen Heung, the Shang Hai uprising of Siau Dao Hui, and Lee Man-Mao's Taiping-Dein De Hui story....etc. we can now see what is very possible happen in canton that period of time in a big picture and what happen in the Red Boat opera in term of Uprising.



As for the DNA of SLT, we need to look into ancient Kuen Po to identify the mother art.



The uprising involvement and the DNA of SLT are two differents tracks.



I dont speak for others but Evidentally, in Yik Kam WCK lineage, both the two tracks are consitance with the chinese ancient records. so we now know more what happen in the Sec of Red Boat opera where Yik Kam was.


Since you are close to the Chen family, check with them, CLF has a very good record system which can trace back.

[chusauli]

Henning's article "Thoughts on Yongchun Boxing" published in Classical Fighting Arts is worth reading and sheds some possible light on the origins of Wing Chun, including a connection to General Qi Jiguang's 32 forms which had 'short hitting' as its core.

He also notes that a work called "Min (Fujian) Short Sketches" written in the 1600's by Zhou Lianggong references 'baida' or barehanded hitting as a custom in Fujian, and that this piece also notes that this was also known as Duanda 'short hitting'.

There are a number of interesting points raised in the article, in particular an entry in the Yong Chun County Gazetteer, a historical document written in the 1600's that references a woman called Ding Number Seven, who moved to Yong Chun with her husband and who taught a man called Zheng Li.

Henning notes that "Strange Tales From the Studio of Small Talk" was written at roughly the same period and contains a story that could have been the inspiration for the story of Wu Mei Dashi (Ng Mui) who first appeared in a late 19th century novel entitled Qianlong Tours The South (although he notes that Ng Mui may have already been a part of Heaven and Earth Mythology by that point).

There are more little asides and notes that make for a very interesting read.


Yes, I just read that work. I think there might have been a misprint of the surname "Ding" from "Fang" - it illustrates the story of Fang Qi Niang, legendary founder of Fujian White Crane. Zheng was a disciple of White Crane...the article is still on the newstand at the local Border's or Barnes and Noble...it pretty much confirms how the myth of Yim Wing Chun was perhaps copied/changed from the story of Fang Qi Niang.

[Sihing73]

Hendrik,

For those of us who only read English could you provide a translation??

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

For those of us who only read English could you provide a translation??



Sure, I will try to do rough one for you.

[Hendrik]

1823年，陳享為求深造，經陳遠護推薦，投拜新會七堡人李友山（至善大師門徒）為師。李為當時廣東著 名的 拳師，擅長棍法和腿功。


1823, Chen Heung (CLF's founder) Baisi to Lee Yau-San ( the Disciple of master Jee Shim). Lee is a famous martial artist in Canton who is keen in Long pole and legs technics.




1839年-1840年間，林則徐「禁煙」，陳享義不容辭，協助林則徐訓練義勇水師。鴉片戰爭爆發，他毅然率領眾弟子投 入廣州虎門水師衙門麾下，英勇抗擊外來侵略。因清政府屈膝投降，林則徐被貶，香港被割讓。他看透了滿清政府 的腐敗無能，帶眾弟子返回京梅村，抱著「以武強族」的信念，積極宣揚「吾技進可禦外侮，退則強身健魄」的主 張。一面傳授武技、一面策劃「洪聖」武館的組織發展，見時機成熟，於1845年在京梅設「洪聖總館」和「祖 師堂」，指派陳大楫、陳典桓、陳燕貽、龍子才等多名高徒分赴兩廣各地開設四十多間「蔡李佛洪聖 館」。


1839-1840

General Lin Ban Opium, Chen asisted Lin to train Lin's sailor fighter. Opium war started Chen leads his students to participate in the war....
1845 Chen sent his students to open up 40 and more CLF schools in both Canton and Kwan Xi.



各地武館蓬勃發展之際，適逢太平天國運動興起，眾多蔡李佛弟子加入起義軍隊伍，例如馮雲山（太平天國南王） 等人成了「金田起義」的主將。陳享秘密協助其堂兄陳松年領導廣東「天地會」起義於江門狗山。1853年，太 平天國攻陷南京，曾國藩在各地徵募鄉勇。陳享深知自己曾是朝廷命官，恐被徵用，淪為鷹犬，遂與妻子黃氏攜幼 子安伯及官伯分別到南海、順德、中山、東莞等地躲避，借機弘揚首創的蔡李佛拳。


While the Booming of CLF martial art schools, The Taiping started the uprising. Lots of CLF students supporting this uprising. IE: Fung Yin San ( the Taiping's southern king) etc. These people had become the dominant general of the famous " goldern field uprising".

Chen Hueng on the other hand secretely support his Cousin brother Chen Song-Nien leading the Canton's Dien Dee Wui for the Yiang Men Dong Mountain Uprising.


1853, Taiping capture NanJing from Qing. Qing Chief General Zhen Kou-Fan starts to recruiting solder. Chen dont want to be Qing army. Thus fleet his home town to teach in other places and propagate CLF.


1856年，陳享赴太平天國翼王石達開處當幕客，協助訓練起義軍將士。「天京內訌」後，他辭別翼王返新 會。 不久，太平天國農民運動失敗，清政府追捕太平天國餘黨。陳享被逼逃往香港，輾轉南洋哈蒙、明古 、吧城等埠， 以授拳行醫為生。


1856 Chen becomes She Da-Kai ( Taiping Wing king)'s advisor, helping She to train the uprising army. after Taiping kingdom broke out its own internal conflict, Chen resign his position. Taiping lost, Qing army is capturing the EX TAipoing. Chen was force to fleet out of China.....

later Chen arrived at San Francisco.....






The Names in the above such as Zhen Kuo Fan, She Da-kai ... are the well know people or Heros in that period of time in Chinese history. and as we know Qing Knows Chen due to his involvement in the Opion War and the Taiping.

This above is happening parallel with the Lee Man Mau Uprising where Lee is the leader of the Red Boat Opera.

This also parallel with the Shang Hai Uprising of the Sio Dau Wui.


And all of these people are related. In Yik Kam lineage, we know the story but I have never suspect the size of the scale until I landed in Shang Hai and found the connection between Shang Hai and Canton.

Also, the CLF record also lead me to understand why the Cho family has CLF. In general, The WCK is for the opera people while the CLF is for the working class. These people all have common denominator and they are all belongs to the Taiping-Dein De wui uprising.

What I also found out is that the Taiping heavenly King, Hung Siew-Chuan also had gone to Pun Yee Canton to have meeting with the Dein De Wui people. Cho family located in Pun Yee.

Thus, with all of these we know why the ending of SLT salutation of Cho family said " Wing elbow as (bong elbow) sword finger present to the Ying Hung ( Hung Ying written in reverse. a symbol of Tien Dee Hui) and the half point of the 6.5 pole said " half point of middle spear settle the Taiping)


we know also SLT was created before the uprising the salutation is created at the uprising.

[punchdrunk]

I'm just curious what is the source of the translated articles above? My apologies if i missed reading it... otherwise crediting your sources is a wise idea to add weight to your points. Useful information is the name of the author and the name of the publication it was printed in or the web site it is recorded on. Thank you for the translation.

[Hendrik]

I'm just curious what is the source of the translated articles above? My apologies if i missed reading it... otherwise crediting your sources is a wise idea to add weight to your points. Useful information is the name of the author and the name of the publication it was printed in or the web site it is recorded on. Thank you for the translation.



It is from different collections.
One always can check out with CLF people and the history of China.

[punchdrunk]

I'm confused about a few points.. are you saying CLF and Wing Chun are related, as martial arts or just as sharing similar political or military goals in history? Are they related to emei as well or entirely different? How is this version of history more verifiable than others? I know that's a lot of questions any help would be appreciated.

[chusauli]

1823年，陳享為求深造，經陳遠護推薦，投拜新會七堡人李友山（至善大師門徒）為師。李為當時廣東著 名的 拳師，擅長棍法和腿功。


1823, Chen Heung (CLF's founder) Baisi to Lee Yau-San ( the Disciple of master Jee Shim). Lee is a famous martial artist in Canton who is keen in Long pole and legs technics.



The question I have is Lee Yau Shan (San) is supposedly Jee Shim's (one of the Fujian Shaolin 5 elders) disciple ...but Jee Shim is fictional?

We all know that Jee Shim allegedly had 5 great disciples - each creators of the 5 great families of Southern Fist (Hung, Lau, Choy, Lay, Mok) and Lee Yau Shan would be Hung Hei Goon's Si Dai...

I get confused....

[SimonW]

I think there might have been a misprint of the surname "Ding" from "Fang"

I have contacted Stanley to clarify things. A misprint is a possibility, but that may of course depend on how many references there are.

Edit: Stanley has replied and told me that he also thinks that Ding is a misprint.

[punchdrunk]

I guess classical fighting arts is a magazine? Is the article in a current isssue or an older issue? Sounds like an interesting read.

[Hendrik]

I'm confused about a few points.. are you saying CLF and Wing Chun are related, as martial arts or just as sharing similar political or military goals in history? Are they related to emei as well or entirely different? How is this version of history more verifiable than others? I know that's a lot of questions any help would be appreciated.


1, For the Taiping -Tien Tee Hui uprising events, in the 1850 era, historic data shows us WCK and CLF at some point sharing similar political military goals.

2, Martial art DNA vice they are different type of art.

3, However, Cho family evolve further fusing CLF and WCK to create a post CLF influence Cho family WCK art. Now a day, some Cho family WCK in SEA is this type of Post CLF influence art.

4, Thus, IMHO, we need to be careful when dealing with WCK origination research, there are WCK DNA and there are WCK involvement in Uprising. one is not default to others.

As I mention above, it is a 2 tracks path, one is the uprising involvement, and another one is the DNA of the art.



As in Yik Kam WCK lineage, we know

1, the DNA of SLT is from Emei 12 Zhuang and White Crane of fujian. and

2, the Anti-Qing movement which the lineage involve in is the 1850 Taiping- Tien Tee Hui join operation. This is not the same with the Anti-Qing operation which is in 1650's or 1720's or as generally mention as the burning of Shao lin period.




Hope this help

[Hendrik]

The question I have is Lee Yau Shan (San) is supposedly Jee Shim's (one of the Fujian Shaolin 5 elders) disciple ...but Jee Shim is fictional?

We all know that Jee Shim allegedly had 5 great disciples - each creators of the 5 great families of Southern Fist (Hung, Lau, Choy, Lay, Mok) and Lee Yau Shan would be Hung Hei Goon's Si Dai...

I get confused....



Robert,

IMHO,


The reason I switch to using martial art DNA to indentify the mother of the art decades ago instead of using Name such as Ng Mui or Jee Shim is because it is very confusing and there always are multiple stories of who Jee Shim or Ng Mui is while the art of these martial art systems have a totally different DNA. IE the Ng Mui Pai and White Crane....etc.

and you notice the time of these characters appeared is also very confusing.


As for the Burning of Shao Lin, one can check into the history of China to see if every time there is a Tien Die Wui uprising it was always called it the Burning of Shao lin. So there is burning of Shao Lin in 1650's, in 1720's, and in 1850s.

Thus, it is not the burning of Shao lin temple, but because the Tien Die Wui followers called themself the Shao lin Disciples.



EVen within Cho family alone you could see different stories of their WCK.

IE:

1, The story of Miu Shun combine White crane and Emei to create SLT.

2, The story of Jee Shim teaching the Red Boat opera WCK. Thus, it is a Shao Lin WCK.


For me, those are stories from two era,

#1, is from the Pre 1850 .

#2, is from the Post 1850 .


So, to really investigate where the SLT from, one needs to investigate the pre 1850 records, but most will only remember the Post 1850 because the salutaion remind them they are anti Qing.

However, that anti Qing story doesnt tell them where the DNA of SLT is from; so, again, they guess and the name such as Ng Mui, JeeShim....turns up so that is thier best guess.

in fact most younger generation today doesnt know the record such as the SLT Kuen kuit exist. what they have are Post 1850 or post CLF influence kuen kuit.


Thus, there are incidents that the younger generation trying to debunk the older kuen kuit unknowing they makes a mistake. since debunk the older kuen kuit is actually cut away the roots of their art .

[chusauli]

As for the Burning of Shao Lin, one can check into the history of China to see if every time there is a Tien Die Wui uprising it was always called it the Burning of Shao lin. So there is burning of Shao Lin in 1650's, in 1720's, and in 1850s.

Thus, it is not the burning of Shao lin temple, but because the Tien Die Wui followers called themself the Shao lin Disciples.



I understand! It is a metaphor...

[Vajramusti]

I understand that the Cho family fused CLF and WC.

Frankly, I was not particularly impressed with the versions of WC from SE Asia that were put up on You Tube a while back.

As far as I can tell from the standpoint of concepts : Ip man's wing chun and CLF are world's apart. I have seen good exponents of CLF.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

I understand that the Cho family fused CLF and WC.

Frankly, I was not particularly impressed with the versions of WC from SE Asia that were put up on You Tube a while back.

As far as I can tell from the standpoint of concepts : Ip man's wing chun and CLF are world's apart. I have seen good exponents of CLF.

joy chaudhuri



There are different version of WCK within Cho family.

The idea is suppose to be "those who has master SLT could mimic other's external shape and make it works " however, the problem is if one has not master SLT and also not master CLF. That becomes a mess.

[Vajramusti]

There are different version of WCK within Cho family.

The idea is suppose to be "those who has master SLT could mimic other's external shape and make it works " however, the problem is if one has not master SLT and also not master CLF. That becomes a mess.
__________________________________________________ _______________________

I have nothing but the deepest respect for doing slt and admiration for it's assistance in doing non wc motions. But why have CLF as part of a regular curriculum?? Family historical reasons?

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

__________________________________________________ _______________________

I have nothing but the deepest respect for doing slt and admiration for it's assistance in doing non wc motions. But why have CLF as part of a regular curriculum?? Family historical reasons?

joy chaudhuri


Joy,


It is mean to do WCK with CLF shape to take advantage of the boomerang effect or the let go Let God flow.

A small boomerang and a large boomerang are both boomerang.

and, large or small both has its beauty,


It is like a song, one can sing the same song lots of ways creates lots of different beutiful music and keep the same soul.


The problem comes when one doesnt know how to sing and end up with making lots of noise.

[chusauli]

There are different version of WCK within Cho family.

The idea is suppose to be "those who has master SLT could mimic other's external shape and make it works " however, the problem is if one has not master SLT and also not master CLF. That becomes a mess.

This is a very good concept, as WCK practitioners can adopt any system. When you are in the center, and your mind is in the center, you can move freely in all directions.

[chusauli]

CLF Noi Liem Sao and Hung Ga's sticking bridge arms have much in common. Its quite possible the Cho family found the connection here. All three systems share a lot in bridging and sticking in high levels as Southern Chinese fist.

The advanced CLF set of Fut Jeung uses palms strikes like we do in Siu Nim Tao. Many of the Hung Ga fist sets have the same or identical palm strikes we use in WCK.

[Hendrik]

From the Taiping's history part, we can see the Heavenly king's activity with Dien Dee Hui and Lee Man Mau. also the involvement of She Da Kai ( Chen Hueng (CLF) was his combat advisor).

Thus, this also confirm the Taiping, opera group, CLF.... connection in 1850s. the picture is clear.



花县志及洪秀全故居、纪念馆的资料及由花县政协文史资料委员会整理编写的《洪秀全生平大事年表》记载：18 53年（咸丰三年，太平天国三年），39岁的洪秀全于当年3月攻克南京，改天京为首都。5月，命令太平军北 伐、西征。冬，颁布《天朝田亩制度》。

1854年40岁，与天地会首领陈开、李文茂商讨研究围攻广州，进军广西，建立大成国。

1855年41岁，派石达开率太平军在江西湖口、九江大败曾国藩湘军水师。


1843年7月，洪秀全劝人拜上帝，除去书塾的孔丘牌位，宣传不拜偶像，不行恶事，冯云山是最早信从者之一 。次年4月，与洪秀全等同往广州、顺德、南海、番禺、增城、从化、清远、英德、阳山和连山诸县，开展拜上帝 会的宣传活动。

[Hendrik]

Robert,


More on what happen in 1850. and become even more clear how things evolve. It

For 1850 era, it even goes as far as pointing out Ng Mui is Leong Lan-Kui's nick name. Yes the Leong Lan-kui of the red boat.

Jee Shim is the leader of the Hung kuen (this Hung Kuen is more likely to be the CLF or Choy Gar Hung Kuen.. Thus again Jee shim could be very likely to be the Nick Name of Chen Hueng.)

and

in this period of time, 1850's Shao Lin Temple is the nick name of The Keng FA Wui Koon or the Jade flower opera association. and indeed the Jade flower opera association was burn down by Qing army. and the Opera members fleet.








天地会于乾隆后被列为反清组织，明令禁止，违令者死。其流传之野史被广东洪门组织所承认，因为避满人之猜忌 ，改名为“三合会”。1848年后，有关三合会的会薄（洪门会册）传说，据称一福建渔民于海底 所获。

两广的洪门组织于太平天国起义后（1851年），互相联络结盟、组织成三合会，曾于琼花会馆的红船中会议， 发动两广（特别在大城市，如广州及佛山）的大武术团体中成立堂口，训练洪兵。

得悉太平天国定都南京后，1854年，三合会李文茂及洪兵起义，引起清廷火烧琼花会馆及所有红船。之后三合 会则传出火烧（南）少林寺的传说、说当时的不同门派（南拳）都源出福建少林寺之少林五老，目的是将原来不团 结的武术团体组织一起，共同反清。

两广三合会会薄记录：“其时（福建）少林寺(指三合会)，武风甚盛，招清廷忌，派兵围捕，攻而不下。适有新 科状元陈文维者，邀宠献议，设法勾通寺僧马甯儿等，四处纵火，里应外合，少林寺(佛山琼花会馆)被毁，僧徒 四散。

于是五枚师太(梁兰桂)与至善禅师(洪拳领袖)、白眉禅师(东江拳领袖)、冯道德 (冯云山?－太平天国联络人)、苗显(广州花拳首领)等五人亦分途出走。



形成背景

由于清朝之锁国政策，引起英国在华之贸易入超非常严重，英国商人以鸦片输华，赢得可观利润。但感国人受毒害 ，最终导致林则徐1839年的虎门销烟及鸦片战争。林则徐知道英国人会用军舰攻粤报复，一早已经组织好广东 各乡镇地区之民兵团，特别是三江流域及海岸，屯守海卫，称为团练。

鸦片战争后，林则徐被罢免，道光21年4月（1840年5月下旬），奕山与英国人订立《广州和约》。驻守在 广州城北的四方炮台英军，与村民发生冲突，发生三元里抗英事件。引起各乡绅村民对清庭之无能与英夷之侵略非 常愤怒。[1]

1843年，南京条约签订后，开放了五口通商，英国人要求有进入广州城内的权利。广东城内绅士民众一致坚决 反对，表示倘夷入城，呜鼓攻之。由于耆英的无能及恐英的态度，更加迫使广东城内人民对满清地方政府怒狠。他 们曾啸聚数千人．．．带刀械，冲进知府衙门．．．火其署．．．等。

1848年后，有关三合会的会薄传说，据称一福建渔民于早年在海底捞获原洪门会册。

鸦片战争失败后，国人感觉到清政府积弱，反清团体三合会开始壮大，引来太平天国起义。及后1854年两广之 各个三合会同时起义，成立大成国。其时的洪门人士，多来自广东三江流域。不幸的是因为大成国因攻取广州城失 败，使到叶名琛对洪门子弟大开杀戒。导致英法联军入侵广州时，叶名琛亦不主张动用民间团练。

英国派遣额尔金于1857年12 月中，联合法军发动占领广州战争，由于叶名琛认为英法联军不会从陆路攻击，没有防御之打算。不理番禺南海各 界招募乡勇之议，导致广州城迅速陷落。反而英军沿途遭到各乡勇自发抗战。广州于12月29日沦陷。英法成立 委员会监督满清官员柏贵复职。柏贵治理广州期间，英军曾搜查多处团练机构，此举更加深了各乡镇洪门人士对清 廷及英人之不满。

1858年，英军入城后，有关的社团及会党为了自保，加入三合会的地下活动，后参与革命党。

[编辑] 上海广东帮派－小刀会

1849年，经营糖业和茶丝生意的香山人刘丽川，来到上海，建立同乡会《广肇会馆》，他是著名的小刀会首领 。当时广肇帮中以香山人最多，人数有两万多。小刀会起义失败后被清政府焚毁。可见广东帮派传入 上海。

[Hendrik]

More and CLF, Chen Hueng, Hung Kuen ( Different then Hung Gar), Jee Shim..... Red bandana,, Red army.





笔者以掌握的资料分析认为，蔡李佛的“洪圣”（鸿胜、雄胜）起源与清代洪门（本名天地会）有渊 源关系：

其一，陈享的师辈是佛派洪门中人。

陈享的蔡李佛，是跟蔡福、李友山、陈远护３位大师学习后，“投合化之，自成一家”（陈享《〈蔡李佛技击学〉 之自序》），始创的一门独家拳术。又据陈享所著《蔡李佛技击学》的自序可知，取名“蔡李佛”是为纪念３位恩 师。他这几位师傅是著名佛派南拳的传人。

蔡福传的是“蔡拳”，蔡拳由福建南少林寺蔡伯达、蔡九仪所创。蔡福别号青草和尚，为清朝廷所忌，被焚寺后逃 出，烧成“烂头和尚”（花名），隐居广东罗浮山，是洪门人物。有说陈享初设武馆称“洪圣”，亦是蔡福所命名 。

新会七堡人李友山传的是“李拳”，师承至善禅师。相传李拳是福建南少林寺僧、洪门重要人物李色 开所创。

陈享族叔、佛门陈远护传的是“洪佛拳”，师承肇庆庆云寺独杖禅师。据蔡李佛传人解释，洪佛拳是“洪门佛家拳 ”的简称，并非来自小说人物洪熙官。

这３种南拳起源与福建南少林寺有关，也由该寺的僧人传开。这几大南拳不仅是武术门派，也是活跃于广东、福建 沿海一带的江湖派别。南少林派与洪门一脉相承，有天然关系。

其二，蔡李佛拳招式诀嵌“反清复明”。

陈享将蔡李佛拳套路的动作招式编成一首椿礼诗诀，其中将“反清复明”４字分拆，嵌入每句的第五个字：（据蔡 李佛传人陈忠杰《蔡李佛椿礼释义》）

“魁星踢斗反天乎，

大鹏展翅清名留。

供拜五湖复四海，

日月拱照明当头。”

“反清复明”是洪门的目标、高扬的旗帜。

其三，陈享秘密支持师兄、洪门的陈松年反清。

清咸丰元年（１８５１），广东各地以洪门（天地会）为主体的红巾军响应太平天国起义。清咸丰四年（１８５４ ），以陈松年、吕萃俊为首领，赵泰来为军师的新会天地会红巾军（又称“洪兵”）于江门狗山“扯旗起义”呼应 ，攻占了江门，又围攻会城６０天。据蔡李佛始祖纪念馆编印资料，陈享秘密支持陈松年。

其四，陈享投身太平天国革命（１８５１－１８６４）。

众多蔡李佛弟子加入太平天国起义军队伍。广西苗族人龙子才是陈享的首徒，其弟子冯云山是太平天国的南王。陈 享还于清咸丰六年（１８５６）亲赴太平天国翼王石达开那里当幕僚，协助训练将士。

洪门痛恨外族入侵，既反清，更打击帝国主义的侵略。太平天国初期，大量洪门队伍加入太平天国革命，因为他们 的目标是一致的。又由于洪秀全称洪天王，因姓氏关系被洪门人看作洪家真主，因而积极响应。

　其五，“洪圣”似洪门会语。

　蔡李佛口号“洪武至圣，英雄永胜”，即以“洪武”为最高神圣，使英雄永远得胜，形式类似洪门会语，带洪门 色彩。

洪门的“洪”指朱洪武，天地会反清复明，捧出明朝开国皇帝朱元璋的年号“洪武”。洪门以“洪”字为标志，“ 出手开声不离洪”，称洪家、大洪门，挂洪圣王肖像，供奉洪圣大帝，其广东总机关称洪顺堂，广西 有洪德堂。

其六，“天下洪圣是一家”与“天下洪门是一家”如出一辙。


秘密组织的洪门因避免引起清廷注意，会名不断改变，如天地会、添弟会、小刀会、洪莲会、三合会、三点会、清 水会、致公堂……等等，它们实际上仍旧是洪门，因此称“天下洪门是一家”，而蔡李佛的口号“天下洪圣是一家 ”与此极为相似。

洪门的诞生、发展在当时有着积极意义，它曾支持太平天国革命，支持孙中山辛亥革命，是一个斗争性很强的秘密 团体组织，是后来才分化了。

张炎威名化“鸿胜”

清道光（１８２１－１８５０年）中页至咸丰年间（１８５１－１８６１年），蔡李佛从创立至迅速扩大，也正值 洪门会党蓬勃兴起、蔓延发展时期，此时广东成为全国洪门的中心地区。陈享在清道光十六年（１８３６年）首先 在家乡开办洪圣武馆。道光二十五年（１８４５年）以后，先后指派门徒分赶本县的２６条乡村和广州、南海、佛 山、中山、番禺、东莞、开平、台山、恩平、鹤山、肇庆、江门、广西浔州等地，开设４４间“洪圣武馆”，弟子 绝大多数是农民、小手工业者、小商贩、店员等。在太平天国革命失败后，蔡李佛朝纯粹民间武术组织的方向发展 。陈享的得意门徒张炎成功拓展蔡李佛，是其中最有代表性的一个

[Hendrik]

From all of the above, eventhough they are from different sources -- CLF, Qing History, Jade flower opera association history......

We can see the big picture clearer and clearer........




Some one like to do brief translation to english? Please do it.

This is a very meaningful task for those who is investigating WCK history.


Rene, Robert,

If you are here. See, we know Keng Fa and Ip's burning of Ken Fa long ago, but then we dont suspect. Burning of Keng Fa is what Burning of Shao lin refer to. and Ng Mui at this period of time is Leong lan-Kui of WCK. Now it get real close to home.

Want to write another article?




To WCner, all of the above is not to insult anyone but to bring up what is the facts at the 1850 era , what happen, what means what, and to see clearly who influence what.

such as
Tan Sau Ng in this case belong to the 1700 period . So we dont applied wrong person in wrong period of time....

[donbdc]

Why is this history so important? As My Seef would say who cares who taught Jerry Rice to catch a ball? I really don't believe ther is any way of finding it out either. Bottom line: how does this affect your training? Will you be a bettewr fighter when your done translating and reading this or that. It's a waste of time!
Train, work what you know.
Just my 2 cents
Don Berry DC RKC

[Hendrik]

Bottom line: how does this affect your training? Will you be a bettewr fighter when your done translating and reading this or that. It's a waste of time!
Train, work what you know.



Your reasoning is based on an assumption of your art is a complete one.

History is the key to help one find their missing piece and settle the direction of their training.


Train without a clear direction is similar to driving without a destination.

[donbdc]

Thats a load of crap used to sell mystical BS. Bimechanics are biomechanics, humans can only move so many ways. WC is a system of body mechanics used for stand up or ground fighting it is complete, it's the users who fall short. There is no secret kungfu power from the past, some secret scroll thats going to allow you to walk through walls! You have watched too many Shaw Bro. movies.
Go train, touch hands, knock each other on the ground and try to get up or bash them on the ground. It's all in the forms and drills.
Don Berry, DC, RKC

[chusauli]

Don,

Some people have an interest in history, others don't.

I think its cool to know your roots. Others don't care.

To each their own...

[JPinAZ]

Thats a load of crap used to sell mystical BS. Bimechanics are biomechanics, humans can only move so many ways. WC is a system of body mechanics used for stand up or ground fighting it is complete, it's the users who fall short. There is no secret kungfu power from the past, some secret scroll thats going to allow you to walk through walls! You have watched too many Shaw Bro. movies.
Go train, touch hands, knock each other on the ground and try to get up or bash them on the ground. It's all in the forms and drills.
Don Berry, DC, RKC

Don, you hit the ball out of the park on this one! And, yeah it does sound like a load of crap to me too :)
The proof is in the art itself - in the concepts and principals, drills, forms, etc, not the past. If someone thinks there is something missing, that could just be they don't understand the system itself. For those that don't train or fight (like Hendrik), it makes sense to dig around looking for secrets.


Your reasoning is based on an assumption of your art is a complete one.
History is the key to help one find their missing piece and settle the direction of their training.
Train without a clear direction is similar to driving without a destination.

I haven't found WC to be missing anything. I'm sure there are plenty of other's here that would agree. That must suck that your understanding of WC has so many holes in it and you have no direction in your training. Maybe why you got dumped on your a$$ by a chi sim practitioner at a seminar.
Keep digging in the dirt for dinasours, I'm sure you'll find some skills in that pile of bones someday... :rolleyes:

[donbdc]

I love history! IN fact if I am not reading technical stuff thats what I read. As for Tv it's usually on the history chanel.
I have read your and Rene's books and love them. So yes I am curious about it too but it will not change my practice of WC: thats my point!
Some people act like their Sifu or Yip Man for that matter was on the moutain top w/ Moses and got some secret scrolls! THe quest for the secret foot work or some other BS. It just drives me nuts.
But I am glad, very glad there are qualified people, such as yourself who take the time and do the laborious work and research this stuff.
So thanks, but Hendrick is a nut!:)

[Hendrik]

Thats a load of crap used to sell mystical BS. Bimechanics are biomechanics, humans can only move so many ways. WC is a system of body mechanics used for stand up or ground fighting it is complete, it's the users who fall short. There is no secret kungfu power from the past, some secret scroll thats going to allow you to walk through walls! You have watched too many Shaw Bro. movies.
Go train, touch hands, knock each other on the ground and try to get up or bash them on the ground. It's all in the forms and drills.
Don Berry, DC, RKC



Thank You for your opinion.

Best Regards

[chusauli]

Thank you Don for your kind words.

Hendrik is not a nut. I think people just don't get him because of his communication style. His writing in Chinese shows a well educated, thoughtful, insightful, and speculative scholar. None of you here are his equal in this respect.

Yes, his posts go way over most people's heads, especially those not fluent in Chinese and the historical period, but a lot of this has been discussed on Chinese language martial arts forums.

Choy Lay Fut through Jeung Yim and Chan Heung were involved heavily in that incident, as was Lee Man Mao of the Chinese Opera Boats, and if put through the time period, Leung Lan Gwai, Wong Wah Bao and Leung Yee Tai were also present. In fact, all the Opera Boat founders of WCK were there. Lee Man Mao instructed those without operatic costumes to wear a Red Bandana around their waist to distinguish who was part of the revolution to overthrow the Qing. (Sound familiar?)

The mention of the fact that "Burning of the Southern Shaolin" is more of a code word that means "Qing destroy/burn the King Fa Hui Opera" which is more related to the time period of the Tai Ping Tian Guo of Hung Xiuquan. Code names such as "Ng Mui", "Jee Shim", "Fung Do Duk", "Mew Hin" , and "Bak Mei" were used also there. Perhaps there is part speculation, part inference, linking this incidence with historical fact...Hendrik has also suggested that code names "Ng Mui" was Leung Lan Gwai, "Jee Shim" was Chan Heung, etc.

At any rate, this more than answered my original question, "Who burned down the Fujian Shaolin Temple?"

Need verification, sources, and more research... :(, (Chinese don't footnote well) but also a great picture in history,,, :)

What if our ancestors were there?

What an exciting period!

This would be a great epic book and movie!

"Hung" does not refer to Chu Hung Mo/Zhu Hong Wu, founder of the Ming Dynasty, but rather Hung/Hong Xiuquan, founder of Tai Ping Tian Guo.

Tai Ping Tian Guo and Hung Mun (Tien Dae Wui/Tian Di Hui) at that time had joined forces.

[Hendrik]

"Hung" does not refer to Chu Hung Mo/Zhu Hong Wu, founder of the Ming Dynasty, but rather Hung/Hong Xiuquan, founder of Tai Ping Tian Guo.

Tai Ping Tian Guo and Hung Mun (Tien Dae Wui/Tian Di Hui) at that time had joined forces.


Robert,

That is the root. and most people doesnt know this, thus, they link to 1644's falling of Ming.

That create confusion.

[-木叶-]

其五，“洪圣”似洪门会语。

　蔡李佛口号“洪武至圣，英雄永胜”，即以“洪武”为最高神圣，使英雄永远得胜，形式类似洪门会语，带洪门 色彩。
洪门的“洪”指朱洪武，天地会反清复明，捧出明朝开国皇帝朱元璋的年号“洪武”。洪门以“洪”字为标志，“ 出手开声不离洪”，称洪家、大洪门，挂洪圣王肖像，供奉洪圣大帝，其广东总机关称洪顺堂，广西 有洪德堂。



Hi Hendrik,

Just a correction.

Earlier you said:
"1,
It is clear now that the Hung army is not the Hung Army of Ming Dynasty. But the Hung Army of Taiping. "

However according from the text quoted above which i bolded, Hung is
really referring to Zhu Hung Wu (Yuan Zhang), founder of the Ming Dynasty,
which his beginning year is Hung Wu, and who is also known as Hung Wu Da Di.

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik,

Just a correction.

Earlier you said:
"1,
It is clear now that the Hung army is not the Hung Army of Ming Dynasty. But the Hung Army of Taiping. "

However according from the text quoted above which i bolded, Hung is
really referring to Zhu Hung Wu (Yuan Zhang), founder of the Ming Dynasty,
which his beginning year is Hung Wu, and who is also known as Hung Wu Da Di.



木叶,

For me, when the qoute says 捧出, brought out, means it is no longer serving Ming Dynasty as in 1644's anti Qing when Ming Fall, but brought out in the Era or 1850 which is serving the Taiping Heavenly KingDom.

[-木叶-]

Hi Hendrik,

I read in the beginning you said there is no shaolin involvement in Wing Chun.

Read carefully below and you will see that Wing Chun was originally developed
in Shaolin's Wing Chun Hall, which was destroyed, and Wing (永） Chun was renamed to same sounding Wing （咏）Chun to hide the art from the Manchurian authorities.



Extracted portions of text from http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/truthrevealed.php
I added in the bold styling and red chinese text.

-----
Secrets in the Shadows of Shaolin
As near as history can testify, Wing Chun was developed around 400 years ago in a time of civil unrest. Between 1644 to 1911, the Manchurians ruled China, where 10% of the population (the Manchus) ruled over 90% of the population (the Hons). To maintain control over the Hons, the Manchus ruled with an iron fist. Aggression and oppression were the cornerstones of the Dynasty and the Hons were banned from using weapons or training in the martial arts. Thus, in order to overthrow their oppressors, rebel activity was instigated by martial arts masters in hiding.

Rebel activity developed rapidly in the Buddhist monasteries, which were largely left alone by the Manchus out of respect for the Buddhist culture and religion. These Shaolin/Siu Lam（少林） sanctuaries were ideal places for renegades to conceal themselves - they simply shaved their heads and donned the monastic robes of the disciples of the temple. During the day, the rebels would earn their keep by doing chores around the temple. At night, they would gather to formulate their plans to overthrow the Manchus.

Upon meeting, the revolutionaries identified themselves to each other with a secret hand-signal that would come to be the formal greeting or courtesy of Wing Chun. In fact, the traditional greeting or courtesy common to many of today's kung fu styles has two meanings. The first meaning recognizes the style's Shaolin origins - the left hand symbolizing the union of the Green Dragon （青龙） (the left hand) and the White Tiger （白虎）(the right hand), the fighting animals of the Shaolin monks.

In the Hung Fa Yi (Red Flower Righteous) Lineage of Wing Chun, however, the hands are reversed: the left hand forms a fist and the right hand is open palm. It still retains its significance to Shaolin but it also refers to the secret society. In this context, the fist represents Yat （日）(the Sun) and the palm represents Yuet （月）(the Moon). Combined, these two characters mean "Bright" which reads and sounds like "Ming" （明）。 This is the name of the previous Dynasty - the one overthrown by the Manchurians who formed the "Ching" Dynasty in its place. Hence, during the time of rebellion, when a Wing Chun practitioner or secret society member saluted with a fist and open palm pushed toward you, they were saying "Return the Ming, overturn the Ching." （反清复明）Obviously, this was not a sentiment shared by the Manchus.

Late in the 1600's, the Manchurians became concerned about the Siu Lam Temples' rebellious activities and their continual development of the fighting arts. Therefore, they sent spies (many of them Manchu military leaders) to infiltrate the rebels and learn the traditional Southern fist systems as taught secretly in the Temples. The rebel kung-fu masters, realizing this, clandestinely developed a new system that was two-fold in purpose: firstly, it had to be learned quickly and efficiently, and secondly, it had to be devastatingly effective against the existing fighting systems that the Manchus were learning and teaching to their soldiers. Thus, Wing Chun was born.

Their spy rings compromised, the Manchus decided to eliminate the threat of spreading rebel activity by simply exterminating the Siu Lam monks. Eventually, the Southern Siu Lam Temple was burned and destroyed.

Extensive research conducted by the Ving Tsun Museum points to a generation of inheritors following the Southern temple's burning. Among them was a gentleman named Cheung Ng (referred to as Tan Sao Ng in other texts). Of this generation of inheritors, Cheung Ng is one to date that has proven to have historically existed. After establishing the Beautiful Flower Society Association (the precursor to the Red Opera and the public name for the Red Flower Society) and providing Wing Chun training to the secret societies, Cheung Ng went into hiding, disappearing from the public eye to escape Qing Dynasty persecution.

He was hidden by distant relatives, a Fuk Gin business family named Chahn. The Chahn Sih Sai Ga (Chan family) were well established and wealthy. Through indirect action they were willing to help Cheung Ng. Staying with the family for over a decade, Cheung Ng taught the family the art of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. It was preserved by the family for four generations before it was taught to outsiders. The direct members of the Chahn family were never directly involved with the secret societies themselves, resulting in a low profile in Praise Spring Boxing history. The last generation of the Chahn family to learn the art was a distant nephew, a high level secret society leader, Huhng Gan Biu. In Qing archives as well as historical research into Chinese secret societies, a person by the name of Chahn Biu was recorded as the leader of the Heaven and Earth Society. He was caught and executed by the Qing authorities. Due to similar names appearing in difference sources at around the same timeframe, there is much debate as to whether the Opera's Biu and the Heaven and Earth Society's Biu were the same person. According to members of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun clan, Huhng Gan Biu was the 4th generation leader of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun clan and his Wing Chun descendants have preserved the system through to the 8th generation Master Garrett Gee and his 9th generation students in today's modern era.

It was at the fourth generation that history and truth parted ways and the myth of Wing Chun's origins was created.

The Myth of Ng Mui and The Truth About Yim Wing Chun To protect the identities of the creators and the perpetuators of the Wing Chun system, a smokescreen was thrown up in the form of a story - the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun.

The legend was told that among the survivors of the Shaolin/Siu Lam massacres was a Buddhist nun named Ng Mui. Ng Mui was believed to have been the sole custodian of a streamlined, highly practical and effective martial arts developed within the temples. In turn, Ng Mui is said to have passed her knowledge onto her chosen disciple, a young girl named Yim Wing Chun. As Yim Wing Chun taught the system to others, it became known as Wing Chun. The story spread and today many versions of it exist around the world.

With regards to the Yim Wing Chun element of the legend, consider once more the relevance of secret rebel societies. `Yim' （严） can be translated to mean `prohibit' or `secret.' The term `Wing Chun' referred to a geographic location - the Siu Lam Wing Chun Tong （永春） (Always Spring Hall), where the rebels perhaps practiced martial arts and orchestrated their seditious activities. The use of the term Spring symbolized the rebirth of the Ming Dynasty and Always referred to the reestablished dynasty lasting forever. After the destruction of the Southern Shaolin temple and its Wing Chun Tong, the survivors changed the character of Wing from Always to Praise. The term Praise referred to the fact that the revolutionaries had to spread the word about the revolution after the destruction of their base. Thus, `Yim Wing Chun' was actually a codename, meaning (protect) the secret art of the Wing Chun Hall.


Enter the Hung Suen （红船）
We do know that many (not the legendary five) monks and rebel leaders escaped the Manchurian massacres and that, to aid the secrecy of the system, historical material was passed directly from teacher to student. Thus, the elders told of two Siu Lam monks/rebels who survived the temple raids and were able to keep their Wing Chun system alive. One of these was a monk, a 22nd generation Siu Lam Grandmaster, Yat Chum Dai Si from the Northern Shaolin temple. The other was a rebel training under him in the Southern Temple, named Cheung Ng. Fleeing the Manchurian persecutors, Cheung Ng founded the Kihng Fa Wui Gun (Beautiful Flower Society), the roots of the (in)famous Hung Suen (Red Boat) Opera Troupe.

Historically, we know that rebel activity flourished in the Red Boat Opera Troupe. The Red Boats allowed talented stage performers, accomplished in kung-fu and gymnastics, to form their own secret societies to overthrow the Manchu Dynasty. The Troupes provided the ideal sanctuary for fleeing rebels as the performers wore elaborate costumes and stage make-up, providing excellent but natural/plausible disguises for them. Additionally, the performers adopted and were known by their `stage-names', further cloaking their secret identities.

When Cheung Ng founded the Opera Troupe he became known as Tan Sao Ng - not only a stage-name but also a sly nod to his skillful deployment of the Wing Chun deflection/striking technique, Tan Sao.

An important fact to note is that so suspicious of the Manchus and their spies were these secret societies, that the true identities of the leaders, members and real nature of their activities were known only to an inner-circle within the society. Thus, genuine knowledge of kung-fu was passed only from a master to select, trusted disciples, thus protecting the purity and origins of the system.

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik,

I read in the beginning you said there is no shaolin involvement in Wing Chun.

Read carefully below and you will see that Wing Chun was originally developed
in Shaolin's Wing Chun Hall, which was destroyed, and Wing (永） Chun was renamed to same sounding Wing （咏）Chun to hide the art from the Manchurian authorities.



木叶,

The article has a great idea however,

Which Shao Lin? which Wing Chun Hall? where? When? who? and what is the DNA of the art the Wing Chun is develop from? all of these must be able to be trace right?
Gen Qi Gi-Kuang of Ming has made a summary on the martial art of China in 1500.


It makes a big different if it is 1644, 1720, or 1850's.

[-木叶-]

木叶,

For me, when the qoute says 捧出, brought out, means it is no longer serving Ming Dynasty as in 1644's anti Qing when Ming Fall, but brought out in the Era or 1850 which is serving the Taiping Heavenly KingDom.

Hi Hendrik,

You are correct.

To clear the confusion, Taiping Tian Guo's army is led by Hung Xiu Quan,
the surname "Hung" is not to be confused with the Hung Men/Tian Di Hui's
wording. I believe they are 2 different organisations altogether.

Thanks.

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik,

You are correct.

To clear the confusion, Taiping Tian Guo's army is led by Hung Xiu Quan,
the surname "Hung" is not to be confused with the Hung Men/Tian Di Hui's
wording. I believe they are 2 different organisations altogether.

Thanks.

I like to discuss this because the more we get into it the more we all would be clear.

if we some how mistakenly think what happen in the 1850 and 1644 then there is where we get into confusion.



1644 is about Ming and Qing .
1850 is about Taiping + Mung Men and Qing.

Eventhough the term Hung is brought up again, however, these are two different events and lead by totally different motivation. One is to restore Ming, the other one is to support Taiping or even build their own kingdom as in Lee Man_Mao's case.

The people involve, the martial art involve are also different.

In 1644, the martial art involve in big scale were White Crane of Fujian and lesser scale The art of DOng Chan (painful Zen) an ex Shao Lin monk. One can trace these in Taiwan, since the zone of fire at this period of time is Fujian , kwan xi, and Taiwan.


In 1850, the martial art involve in big scale is CLF or Choy Gar Hung Kuen (different then Hung Gar), White Crane of Fujian, ( Both CLF and White Crane of Fujian have followers who become the official of Taiping.) in Keng FA hui kwon or fine jade flower opera association or the Red boat opera association Leong Lan Kwai of WCK beside Lee Man Mau Who is also a White Crane follower are the lead.
then at lesser scale such as the Cho Gar of Puun Yee Canton with Yik Kam, Dai Ngan Soon or Cho Soon as lead,

One can trace this from Canton, Kwan Xi, Shang Hai, and Nan Jing or the path of Taiping revolution.


IMHO, WCK doesnt exist yet in 1644. SLT was created in mid 1700, and WCK is created around 1830's.

[-木叶-]

From Wikipedia:

The Taiping Rebellion was a large-scale revolt in China from 1850 to 1864, during the Qing Dynasty, by an army led by heterodox Christian convert Hong Xiuquan. He established the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom (Chinese: 太平天國 pinyin: Tàipíng Tiān Guó), namely Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace with its capital at Nanjing and gained control of significant parts of southern China, at its height ruling over about 30 million people.

---

Clearly the revolution has nothing to do with Hung Men Tian Di Hui's goal
of toppling the Qing Dynasty and to revive the Ming Dynasty. (反清复明）。

---

I think i need to sleep, hehe misinterpreted Hendrik's previous post about liking
to discuss more to post this.

[chusauli]

木叶, Mu Ye or is it Ye Mu?,

During the time of Tai Ping Tian Guo, the Hung Mun joined forces with Hung/Hong Xiu Quan, thinking the alliance would allow them to overthrow the Qing.

Taiping Tian Guo controlled all of the riverboats, including the Red Boat Opera...

Hendrik shared how extensive the territory they controlled during its height of power.

The story here is quite plausible - it certainly shows what our Opera Ancestors might have been involved with during their non-performance times.

[Hendrik]

木叶, Mu Ye or is it Ye Mu?,

During the time of Tai Ping Tian Guo, the Hung Mun joined forces with Hung/Hong Xiu Quan, thinking the alliance would allow them to overthrow the Qing.

Taiping Tian Guo controlled all of the riverboats, including the Red Boat Opera...

Hendrik shared how extensive the territory they controlled during its height of power.

The story here is quite plausible - it certainly shows what our Opera Ancestors might have been involved with during their non-performance times.



Robert,

You see, until we dig this reality of 1850 up, most people are thinking the 1644 anti Qing at the falling of Ming dynasty incident.


You see these experience of 1850's starting with the Opinium war and wars after wars within a sixteen years perior or so must be very tragedy and sad, so deep the grief that the the martial artists choose to forget or leave a blank in the mind. It seems that no one wants to remember. May be because they all lost after millions of people die ? All the heros such She DA-kai of Taiping, the Lee Man-Mau, either executed or sick and die in the revolution, most of the elite Chinese in the south wipe out, clean.

The vanishing of the elite chinese at that time also setting up for the born of the modern China with big western influence. perhaps this is china's karma, one needs to clean the tea pot before making new type of tea.




I have thought lately,
Perhaps, What I did to reveal all of these facts are wrong. This is because sometimes it is better for others to live within their sweet dream.

Life is just an illusive dream anyway. So why not let those love sweet dream to continous dream on? at least give that will give them some future hope and they will feel more meaningful to live.


So, perhaps this is the end of this facing of reality posts. for most would not be able to take it and not neccessary needed to take it.

[-木叶-]

木叶, Mu Ye or is it Ye Mu?,

During the time of Tai Ping Tian Guo, the Hung Mun joined forces with Hung/Hong Xiu Quan, thinking the alliance would allow them to overthrow the Qing.

Taiping Tian Guo controlled all of the riverboats, including the Red Boat Opera...

Hendrik shared how extensive the territory they controlled during its height of power.

The story here is quite plausible - it certainly shows what our Opera Ancestors might have been involved with during their non-performance times.

Mu Ye :)

Yeap i certainly do not disagree on the points, newbie to this part of history :p

[chusauli]

Robert,

You see, until we dig this reality of 1850 up, most people are thinking the 1644 anti Qing at the falling of Ming dynasty incident.


You see these experience of 1850's starting with the Opinium war and wars after wars within a sixteen years perior or so must be very tragedy and sad, so deep the grief that the the martial artists choose to forget or leave a blank in the mind. It seems that no one wants to remember. May be because they all lost after millions of people die ? All the heros such She DA-kai of Taiping, the Lee Man-Mau, either executed or sick and die in the revolution, most of the elite Chinese in the south wipe out, clean.

The vanishing of the elite chinese at that time also setting up for the born of the modern China with big western influence. perhaps this is china's karma, one needs to clean the tea pot before making new type of tea.

I have thought lately,
Perhaps, What I did to reveal all of these facts are wrong. This is because sometimes it is better for others to live within their sweet dream.

Life is just an illusive dream anyway. So why not let those love sweet dream to continous dream on? at least give that will give them some future hope and they will feel more meaningful to live.


So, perhaps this is the end of this facing of reality posts. for most would not be able to take it and not neccessary needed to take it.

Nothing is right or wrong. We can look back know and see what happened.

I think the Qing oppressed the Southerners and caused a great deal of resentment. When the uprising failed, anguish and suffering were the norm. Death by executions and torture were amongst means of extracting information from the lowly to get at the leaders. The stories became convoluted over time, giving rise to many myths, and misconceptions. That was a painful era. Also, many put faith in Hong Xiuchuan to lead them. However, he was crazy - he declared was God's Chinese son and Jesus' brother, and freely interpreted the Bible for his own use. Tai Ping Tian Guo, also incorrectly referred to as a "Christian" uprising..."Heavenly Great Peace Kingdom it was not.

The period in which Wong Wah Bao and Leung Yee Tai lived in, the Opera was banned. Leung Jan allegedly took care of them. After the ban was lifted, Wong Wah Bao went back to the Opera. Others scattered....leaving the seeds of WCK to be eventually passed to us.

It was a painful story in China's past.

[Ned]

:rolleyes:
What a bunch of dung.
:)

[Hendrik]

Nothing is right or wrong. We can look back know and see what happened.

I think the Qing oppressed the Southerners and caused a great deal of resentment. When the uprising failed, anguish and suffering were the norm. Death by executions and torture were amongst means of extracting information from the lowly to get at the leaders. The stories became convoluted over time, giving rise to many myths, and misconceptions. That was a painful era. Also, many put faith in Hong Xiuchuan to lead them. However, he was crazy - he declared was God's Chinese son and Jesus' brother, and freely interpreted the Bible for his own use. Tai Ping Tian Guo, also incorrectly referred to as a "Christian" uprising..."Heavenly Great Peace Kingdom it was not.

The period in which Wong Wah Bao and Leung Yee Tai lived in, the Opera was banned. Leung Jan allegedly took care of them. After the ban was lifted, Wong Wah Bao went back to the Opera. Others scattered....leaving the seeds of WCK to be eventually passed to us.

It was a painful story in China's past.




Robert,

Here is good song for all of these. China has gone through lots of these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jkiTy2knz0&feature=related


Partial lyrics:

看 大江东去 ( look at the east flowing river)
浪花淘尽千古英雄 ( the wave washes away heros from different eras)
笑 指点江山 ( commanding the country in war with laughter)
是非成败俱灰飞烟灭 ( right or wrong , win and lost, all turn into dust.)
此地一为别 ( fairwel to this location)
青山旧 雨初歇 豪情却 向谁说 ( Green mountain still unchanges after the rain, however who can I express my heartly emotion?)


....
人生纵使一别 ( We all will leave somedays)
天涯共此明月 ( Wish we all share this bright moon disregard where we end up)


Life.