Sun Toi, Bai San, etc

[TenTigers]

how do you explain to a student who is strict conservative, or orthodox jew, christian, muslim, etc about the Sun Toi, Bai-San, Guan Yum, Guan Gung, etc?
I tell them;
1-it is not a religious altar, but one of honoring the founders of the system
2-Guan Yum, and Guan Gung were living people in Chinese history, and as such are seen as archetypes or role models, rather than worshipped as gods.
3-bowing is not an act of worship, but a showing of respect.

Sometimes it works, other times, not.
Just wondering what some of you do.

-and please, no comments from those who do not use, or believe in having an altar, or formalities, etc. We've all heard your opinions, and this thread is specifically for those who can contribute to the conversation.

[sean_stonehart]

Yes to all of that & also I stress to them (mostly conservative Christians in my area) your #1 point. It's not religious, but respect.

There are religious names used for techniques at times ... Fut Jeurng (Buddha Palm), Foi Sing Tek Dao (Scholar God Kicks the Bushel), etc... which is no different than the religious connotations we use in everyday life as well, but from a Judeo-Christian background instead of Buddhist/Taoist.

If they still aren't comfortable with it, I direct them down the road to the nice ATA Taekwon-do school where they can get a black belt in 2 years & keep their soul intact.

[David Jamieson]

how do you explain to a student who is strict conservative, or orthodox jew, christian, muslim, etc about the Sun Toi, Bai-San, Guan Yum, Guan Gung, etc?
I tell them;
1-it is not a religious altar, but one of honoring the founders of the system
2-Guan Yum, and Guan Gung were living people in Chinese history, and as such are seen as archetypes or role models, rather than worshipped as gods.
3-bowing is not an act of worship, but a showing of respect.

Sometimes it works, other times, not.
Just wondering what some of you do.

-and please, no comments from those who do not use, or believe in having an altar, or formalities, etc. We've all heard your opinions, and this thread is specifically for those who can contribute to the conversation.


1. check
2. check
3. check

Of course there are different ways of looking at the altar and some do include it in their religious practice, particularly those whose culture involves ancestor worship, such as is found in various asian and southeast asian cultures.

But in context to a martial arts school, your explanation is pretty much what i would use whether the people asking were devoutly religious or not.

UNless of course they are ultimately undesirable to your school, in which case, it's ALL about the demon worship and that they will have to bring their children in for tattoos as soon as possible. :D

[David Jamieson]

*snip*

If they still aren't comfortable with it, I direct them down the road to the nice ATA Taekwon-do school where they can get a black belt in 2 years & keep their soul intact.

Man it must be getting easier or something because it took me almost 4 years to get mine in tkd. And I was diligent. :)

[sean_stonehart]

Man it must be getting easier or something because it took me almost 4 years to get mine in tkd. And I was diligent. :)

Oh shoot those guys... you sign a contract & *boom* you're on the path if your check clears.

Plus they can teach you Krav as well from their highly trained seminar certified teachers... :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Oh shoot those guys... you sign a contract & *boom* you're on the path if your check clears.

Plus they can teach you Krav as well from their highly trained seminar certified teachers... :rolleyes:

well, i did my tkd back in the 70's/80's.

I guess it was different then than it is nowadays.

Come to think of it, it must be because apparently you can buy a black belt outright online along with a bachelors or masters degree in the field of your choice! lol

[CFT]

how do you explain to a student who is strict conservative, or orthodox jew, christian, muslim, etc about the Sun Toi, Bai-San, Guan Yum, Guan Gung, etc?
I tell them;
1-it is not a religious altar, but one of honoring the founders of the system
2-Guan Yum, and Guan Gung were living people in Chinese history, and as such are seen as archetypes or role models, rather than worshipped as gods.
3-bowing is not an act of worship, but a showing of respect.

Sometimes it works, other times, not.
Just wondering what some of you do.

-and please, no comments from those who do not use, or believe in having an altar, or formalities, etc. We've all heard your opinions, and this thread is specifically for those who can contribute to the conversation.I hope you don't take this as criticism ... I just wanted to discuss some of these points.

1) By calling it a "san toi" it is already to do with "gods". If you offer up incense and fruit, etc. then you are engaged in ancestor worship at the very least and venerating gods at the other "extreme".

2) AFAIK, Guan Yam and Guan Gung are not the founders of any system of MA so strictly there is no need to venerate them. Of course Guan Gung has his own place in MA folklore and can be respected for his heroism and loyalty, etc.

3) But probably all of the Abrahamic faiths frown upon graven idols so how can any follower of these faiths even submit to even bowing to these figures? I think perhaps for such conscientious objectors you could replace it with a bow to the dojo/kwoon?

Great that you can/are willing to keep up the tradition but there is no reason to be dogmatic about it.

[TenTigers]

like I said, Guan Yum and Guan Gung are not founders but archetypes and role models and are respected for their compassion, morality, and loyalty.
Hok Yun, Hok Yee, Hok Gung-Fu.
However, that being said, the altar faces the entrance, so bowing as you enter also serves to bow to the altar. But we also begin and end each class with a more formal bow.
Again, I don't want to enter into a discussion on whether it is, is not, like, dislike, etc.
I am only concerned with how those of you who do have a sun toi and bai-san/bie-si, handle it when questioned by religious people.

[David Jamieson]

In all seriousness, if it is of such great concern to a religious zealot that they should not take part in the teachings offered by your school, then they can go elsewhere.

If you include that aspect as part of your offerings (excuse the pun) then why diminish your school and it's traditions to supplicate to theirs?

They have plenty of other places to go and do their thing, but when they are in your school, they do it your way or not at all.

It's pretty black and white when it comes down to things like that.

"NO KUNGFU FOR YOU!!!!" Would be the standard response when pressed on the subject. :)

[Lucas]

"NO KUNGFU FOR YOU!!!!"

Kungfu nazi!!!

[bawang]

hi, in the bible in greece christians had their friends invite them for dinner, some time the food was sacrificed to greek gods and they sent mail to prophet paul, and paul wrote back if u see it as food its ok, if its on your concscience its a sin, its up to your own perceptins meybe u can try explaining this way

i think u shud just relax the rules maybe just a salute to the statue instead of bowing or going on your kness


i think if u join song or emei mountain they are religious schools, u have to worship buddha or some ssort of gods, but ur pai is secular its always been about teaching for profit and winning lei tai for profit, no need to force religious actitity on your students

[lkfmdc]

I have an "altar" with my sifu's pic in it in my gym

If someone asks, I tell them it's just like having pics of deceased family members on the walls at home, you love, honor, respect and miss them

Now, if you make your student bow to it, light incense, engage in ritual then you can be said to be "making them engage in religious practice"

I honestly think you know pretty quickly who wants "in" on those sorts of things and those who don't ... do not try to force it on someone, the same way you wouldn't want them forcing religion or politics on you

[TenTigers]

...great.
So now I suppose the enforced circumcisions would be frowned upon as well?

[Dale Dugas]

I have a sun toi at my house where I train.

I dont have my own school but will someday.

Its more of what Dave mentioned. In our system we call it the Ancestors Place. To honor those who came before and developed that which we study.

I just tell people its about ancestor worship.

[TenTigers]

I
I just tell people its about ancestor worship.

yeah, I might want to leave out the term, worship and replace with honor.

[Hardwork108]

how do you explain to a student who is strict conservative, or orthodox jew, christian, muslim, etc about the Sun Toi, Bai-San, Guan Yum, Guan Gung, etc?
I tell them;
1-it is not a religious altar, but one of honoring the founders of the system
2-Guan Yum, and Guan Gung were living people in Chinese history, and as such are seen as archetypes or role models, rather than worshipped as gods.
3-bowing is not an act of worship, but a showing of respect.

Sometimes it works, other times, not.
Just wondering what some of you do.

-and please, no comments from those who do not use, or believe in having an altar, or formalities, etc. We've all heard your opinions, and this thread is specifically for those who can contribute to the conversation.

Interesting question.:)

I believe that if someone decides to be your student and accepts you as sifu, while at the same time you accept him as a student, then he should trust you when you explain the genuine reason behind the altar. If he doesn then he is already starting on the wrong foot.

I suppose one can go further and explain the fact that by bowing to the altar you are paying your respects to your kung fu family elder.

The fact that it is a sign of respect should be emphasised greatly.

[bawang]

yeah, I might want to leave out the term, worship and replace with honor.

hey man, the act is worship,, my grandmother told me when you put the food on the altar or table, its spirit food and spirits of ancestors will come and eat
when i went back to pay respects to ancestors for my uncle i go on one knee, for my grandfather i kowtow two times, if i did three times thats worhipping a god, and im a christian so i cant do that, tahts the custom in my place

[Hardwork108]

hey man, the act is worship,, my grandmother told me when you put the food on the altar or table, its spirit food and spirits of ancestors will come and eat
when i went back to pay respects to ancestors for my uncle i go on one knee, for my grandfather i kowtow two times, if i did three times thats worhipping a god, and im a christian so i cant do that, tahts the custom in my place

I believe that different schools will see this in different ways. I personally have not come across schools that worship but it seems that some schools do.

[TenTigers]

so..is dim heurng considered worship?

[David Jamieson]

hey man, the act is worship,, my grandmother told me when you put the food on the altar or table, its spirit food and spirits of ancestors will come and eat
when i went back to pay respects to ancestors for my uncle i go on one knee, for my grandfather i kowtow two times, if i did three times thats worhipping a god, and im a christian so i cant do that, tahts the custom in my place

here's the weird part.

If you eat food that has been offered to the dead, it will be tasteless, devoid of flavour.

true story.

:)

[lkfmdc]

hey man, the act is worship,, my grandmother told me when you put the food on the altar or table, its spirit food and spirits of ancestors will come and eat
when i went back to pay respects to ancestors for my uncle i go on one knee, for my grandfather i kowtow two times, if i did three times thats worhipping a god, and im a christian so i cant do that, tahts the custom in my place

There is an episode in Chinese/Vatican history called the "rites controversy" in which the question of whether Chinese catholics could engage in ancestor worship. The most conservative elements won out in the Vatican, and it was determined "NO, cahtolics can NOT engage in ancestor worship"... the result was a much lower conversion rate than could have been possible

Later protestant missionaries in Korea were more open minded and flexible and you can see the results

[TenTigers]

here's the weird part.

If you eat food that has been offered to the dead, it will be tasteless, devoid of flavour.

true story.

:)
when we made an offering to Guan Yum on Fridays, it consisted of Bak Chi Gai,(steamed chicken) steamed egg, and choy, with geurng-chung yao.
It was always delicious.

[CFT]

so..is dim heurng considered worship?Dave Ross made a good point about rites of worship. For some they can take it as "just a sign of respect". For me it would me it would be worship because it is considered "food for the spirits/gods".


here's the weird part.

If you eat food that has been offered to the dead, it will be tasteless, devoid of flavour.

true story.

:)People say that the food that is offered to the ancestors at times in the Chinese calendar like Ching Ming and Chung Yueng taste the best. Maybe because the food is consumed outdoors after much effort cleaning grave sites, etc.

[SteveLau]

Basically I agree with what Lkfmdc said on the topic. Most of us are the combinations of old and new cultures. I am not an instructor. And if I were to hang picture of our school seniors and ancestors in my school, it is only for respect and memorial purpose. That means I will not tell or ask the students to bow to the pictures, etc. If they volunteer to show respect to the seniors and ancestors, that is fine with me. Imposing such custom on others is a no no. It is bossy.


Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[SteveLau]

It is known that TMA schools usually have an altar in their gym. Again, I have no facility in my place. Perhaps it is because I am an atheist. There are no photos of family relatives displayed either probably because I am more or less a loner. But last night I paid tribute to the King of Pop in private.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Dale Dugas]

And why would you bring up that piece of info?

one would better be served with Guan Gung and Guan Yin than what Mr. Jackson represents.

[lkfmdc]

I am the first one to drop a sarcastic line or enter into a flame war, but really, maybe just for today, let's leave MJ and his baggage out of this thread

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Later protestant missionaries in Korea were more open minded and flexible and you can see the results." (lkfmdc)


***OH YEAH, like Kim Jong-il :eek:

[Lucas]

that guy is a modern day super villain

[CFT]

South Korea Victor, not North!

[TenTigers]

Fahn Ching, Fuhk Ming!





;)

[CFT]

The Ching have already been Fahn-ed, Fuhk the Ming!

;) back at-cha