hand forward guard stance

[MightyB]

I always try to figure things out before I make a judgement, but- I can't seem to really figure out what are the merits to the traditional fighting stance where you extend the right hand and arm out in a fist.

I personally don't like it and don't do it because: 1. it removes your ability to act offensively with a jab, and 2. it extends a bridge for your opponent to work off.

I assume there has to be some reasons and a rationale for why it was taught and passed down through the ages- so what are they?

[David Jamieson]

I always try to figure things out before I make a judgement, but- I can't seem to really figure out what are the merits to the traditional fighting stance where you extend the right hand and arm out in a fist.

I personally don't like it and don't do it because: 1. it removes your ability to act offensively with a jab, and 2. it extends a bridge for your opponent to work off.

I assume there has to be some reasons and a rationale for why it was taught and passed down through the ages- so what are they?

dunno, don't do it myself, i keep my hands up not out.

just sayin...

[Lucas]

looks cool in movies?

[lianweizhi]

I do use this stance on occasion when I am fighting, usually in earlier stages of the fight/match when I'm getting used to the opponent.

As with anything, there are merits and disadvantages to the lead hand guard stand. First, I'll try to describe what it is that I do with it.

I generally start in a southpaw stance (not sure why, we were always taught out of the southpaw), with my right hand extended to where my elbow joint is probably about 135 degrees - almost never locked out. My hand is actually open, not clenched in a fist. My left hand is naturally closer to my body but not "****ed" all the way back either, it's similar in positioning to a guard hand to the ribs seen in many forms but a typically a little higher because I worry about my face more than my body due to my mobility. My stance at this point is low - not Drunken Master low, but lower than usual.

I use this stance for the following reasons:

1. The right hand and low stance force the opponent to cover a lot of ground if he wants to strike anything of consequence.

2. The way my hands are set actually does not have to take away as much one might think from the lead hand punch. Most of the power from the lead hand punch isn't from the windup, but rather from the twist of the waist and the short power in the last 6 inches or so of the punch. The somewhat forward position of my left hand allows me to "pull back", aiding in the rotation of my body and generating power for the right hand.

3. As you said, it creates a bridge. A bridge for the opponent can also be a bridge for yourself. Relating to (1) above, I have a world of time to react if the opponent tries to come in, at which point my lead hand can make contact and, if I'm lucky :P, I can clear the attack and their guard opening them up for a pummel, a good left cross, sow choy, etc. Similarly for kicks, because of the distance, I only have to move slightly to avoid the kick, and because they have so much space to cover in order to rechamber the kick, often all I need to do is drop my hand and the kick will fall into place, setting up for a takedown or a sweep.

4. I can get my weapons closer to their face/body. Because of this proximity, attacks from the lead side are very quick. The lead hand strike loses some power, but when using what I described in (2), it's not a huge loss, and it doesn't actually matter that much because the initial strike is more of a setup strike anyway, much like a boxer's jab. After this punch, my left hand can be fully wound for a cross or three punch combination. The same applies for lead leg kicks, which I use often to try to get the opponent off balance, weaken their legs, or just keep them honest and force them to consider attacks from both my arms and legs.

That said, I will usually not use this structure for the entire fight for a few reasons:

1. It actually does get a little tiring holding the hand out all the time.

2. Ditto for the lower stance.

3. I tend to find myself losing a bit of mobility in this position. I can move better when I keep everything closer.

4. As we agreed, we don't have much knockout power from here.

Again, as I said at the beginning of my post, I use this stance in the beginning of a fight when I am pretty fresh and just feeling out the opponent. It's not very aggressive but it creates problems for the opponent because of the distance that you create, especially in a gloved match since they lose some of the arsenal from bridging. From this position, you can actually generate a lot of power for defensive moves just by turning the waist and shoulders - I think this is called sinking or reeling power by some, and some strikes and combinations are still very effective from this position (CLFs chinji pek choy and gwa choy come to mind). After I get a feel for the abilities of the opponent, I will usually start to cover up, get closer and go into more offensive mode, pushing the opponent into a corner or going in and out, depending on the situation.

I don't know if that made much sense in, it would be easier to show in person.

[Lokhopkuen]

I always try to figure things out before I make a judgement, but- I can't seem to really figure out what are the merits to the traditional fighting stance where you extend the right hand and arm out in a fist.

I personally don't like it and don't do it because: 1. it removes your ability to act offensively with a jab, and 2. it extends a bridge for your opponent to work off.

I assume there has to be some reasons and a rationale for why it was taught and passed down through the ages- so what are they?

Some use it as bait, it's a trap. Others use it for sensing like the feelers on an insect.

[Lucas]

I do use this stance on occasion when I am fighting, usually in earlier stages of the fight/match when I'm getting used to the opponent.

As with anything, there are merits and disadvantages to the lead hand guard stand. First, I'll try to describe what it is that I do with it.

I generally start in a southpaw stance (not sure why, we were always taught out of the southpaw), with my right hand extended to where my elbow joint is probably about 135 degrees - almost never locked out. My hand is actually open, not clenched in a fist. My left hand is naturally closer to my body but not "****ed" all the way back either, it's similar in positioning to a guard hand to the ribs seen in many forms but a typically a little higher because I worry about my face more than my body due to my mobility. My stance at this point is low - not Drunken Master low, but lower than usual.

I use this stance for the following reasons:

1. The right hand and low stance force the opponent to cover a lot of ground if he wants to strike anything of consequence.

2. The way my hands are set actually does not have to take away as much one might think from the lead hand punch. Most of the power from the lead hand punch isn't from the windup, but rather from the twist of the waist and the short power in the last 6 inches or so of the punch. The somewhat forward position of my left hand allows me to "pull back", aiding in the rotation of my body and generating power for the right hand.

3. As you said, it creates a bridge. A bridge for the opponent can also be a bridge for yourself. Relating to (1) above, I have a world of time to react if the opponent tries to come in, at which point my lead hand can make contact and, if I'm lucky :P, I can clear the attack and their guard opening them up for a pummel, a good left cross, sow choy, etc. Similarly for kicks, because of the distance, I only have to move slightly to avoid the kick, and because they have so much space to cover in order to rechamber the kick, often all I need to do is drop my hand and the kick will fall into place, setting up for a takedown or a sweep.

4. I can get my weapons closer to their face/body. Because of this proximity, attacks from the lead side are very quick. The lead hand strike loses some power, but when using what I described in (2), it's not a huge loss, and it doesn't actually matter that much because the initial strike is more of a setup strike anyway, much like a boxer's jab. After this punch, my left hand can be fully wound for a cross or three punch combination. The same applies for lead leg kicks, which I use often to try to get the opponent off balance, weaken their legs, or just keep them honest and force them to consider attacks from both my arms and legs.

That said, I will usually not use this structure for the entire fight for a few reasons:

1. It actually does get a little tiring holding the hand out all the time.

2. Ditto for the lower stance.

3. I tend to find myself losing a bit of mobility in this position. I can move better when I keep everything closer.

4. As we agreed, we don't have much knockout power from here.

Again, as I said at the beginning of my post, I use this stance in the beginning of a fight when I am pretty fresh and just feeling out the opponent. It's not very aggressive but it creates problems for the opponent because of the distance that you create, especially in a gloved match since they lose some of the arsenal from bridging. From this position, you can actually generate a lot of power for defensive moves just by turning the waist and shoulders - I think this is called sinking or reeling power by some, and some strikes and combinations are still very effective from this position (CLFs chinji pek choy and gwa choy come to mind). After I get a feel for the abilities of the opponent, I will usually start to cover up, get closer and go into more offensive mode, pushing the opponent into a corner or going in and out, depending on the situation.

I don't know if that made much sense in, it would be easier to show in person.

makes sense to me. its also a great feeler, and using the extended lead hand can be easier to get away with if you know your better than the person you are fighting/sparring. also under the right circumstances you can set yourself up for certain follow ups just by getting in close enough with your already extended hand. people tend to let you get closer with that hand if its already extended without providing the same defensive actions they would if you had to extend your hand from a closer ready position. just a few observations.

[Lucas]

Some use it as bait, it's a trap. Others use it for sensing like the feelers on an insect.

nano nano !!

[Golden Arms]

For those that are interested, posted from the link below:

http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate%20Essays/Bare-Knuckles%20to%20Modern%20Boxing.htm

The older guards, or “attitudes,” were far more extended. Because the fighters couldn’t rely on the extra protection gloves provide, they needed to block many blows ****her away from their bodies. This is particularly true for shots to the head, which couldn’t effectively be blocked with the modern tuck and cover. Combatants needed time to react and parry, having little protection close in. Therefore, the distance in bare-knuckle pugilism was considerably longer than in today’s boxing, being fought just outside the range where each antagonist could hit the other without moving his body or feet.


Increased distance was also significant due to another major difference between modern boxing and bare-knuckle pugilism: grappling. A staple of the earlier fighting style, grappling was important for many reasons, but is difficult to do when wearing gloves. Grappling played a major role in ending rounds. Unlike today, rounds weren’t timed, and lasted until one of the combatants hit the floor (KO’s were not common). One way to drop an opponent was to close, grapple, and throw him – hopefully doing severe damage with the throw. Standing grapevines, cross-buttocks, back-heels, and trips were just some of the techniques used to end a round. Other techniques included putting an opponent in chancery (a headlock), and landing blows until he yielded.


When the Queensbury rules made wearing the gloves mandatory, they also established timed rounds and disallowed the convention of grappling. Therefore, combatants no longer needed to worry about avoiding the throw, and could afford to close in order to deliver more powerful blows such as the hook and uppercut.
One final change that gloves brought about in boxing is they made certain disreputable techniques impossible. One such technique was gouging, or using one’s thumbs and fingers to injure the opponent’s eyes. Despite gouging being outlawed even prior to the Queensbury rules, it was still sometimes practiced. Another such move, although perfectly legal up until the Queensbury rules, was that of holding an opponent by the hair and beating him until he could no longer fight, as was the case when Gentleman John Jackson severely punished Daniel Mendoza in their 1795 prizefight. These moves obviously have no place in modern sport, but are very effective and brutal martial techniques.

[Mas Judt]

Beat me to it. Goes back to my old saw on this forum about how combat sport inevitably evolves into mistakes for the street.

There has to be a balance between 'live' training and practical knowledge. As the 'game' evolves into beating the rules/working within the rules, changes occur that create leaks and renders the player vulnerable outside the rules.

That said, I see a lot of people take extended positions without really having an understanding of why they do it or what to do.

[YouKnowWho]

I assume there has to be some reasons and a rationale for why it was taught and passed down through the ages- so what are they?
Everthing has a good reason, otherwise this method would not be passed down from generation to generation.

If you and your opponent both holding a sword, will you hold your sword

- close to yourself and away from your opponent? or
- close to your opponent and away from yourself?

If your opponent is away from you, there is only one path that he can reach you and that's the straight line drawing between your opponent's chest and your chest. If you put your arms or sword in that path, you may be able to stop your opponent's arm or sword further away from you own body, that will increase your safty and give you more reaction time.

This kind posture is more suitable for you if you are a grappler. Because your intention is to take your opponent down and not to knock him down. You may also force a striker to play your "grip fight" game that you are more familiar with in your area and may be foreign to him.

You don't need to be "on guard" if you are outside of your opponent's punching range. If your opponent is 100 feet away from you, you can lay dwon on the ground if you want to. If your opponent is 8 feet away from you, you should worry more about his kicks than his punches. If your opponent is inside the clinching range, on guard (combing the hair) will not only be an excellent defense strategy but also an excellent offense strategy for you to enter. You use "on guard" (double separate hands), arm wrapping, and enter.

[Lokhopkuen]

If you and your opponent both holding a sword, will you hold your sword

- close to yourself and away from your opponent? or
- close to your opponent and away from yourself?

If your opponent is away from you, there is only one path that he can reach you and that's the straight line drawing between your opponent's chest and your chest. If you put your arms or sword in that path, you may be able to stop your opponent's arm or sword further away from you own body, that will increase your safty and give you more reaction time.

This kind posture is more suitable for you if you are a grappler. Because your intention is to take your opponent down and not to knock him down. You may also force a striker to play your "grip fight" game that you are more familiar in your area and may be foreign to him.

You don't need to be "on guard" if your opponent is outside of his punching range. If your opponent is 100 feet away from you, you can lay dwon on the ground if you want to. If your opponent is 8 feet away from you, you should worry more about his kicks than his punches. If your opponent is inside the clinching range, on guard (combing the hair) will not only be an excellent defense strategy but also an excellent offense strategy for you to enter (double separate hands).

An arc can reach just as well as a straight line. It's all a matter of timing and opportunity.

[YouKnowWho]

True. Since your arms are already in that path, if your opponent move in through that path, his arms and your arms will collide and that won't achieve anything. This will force your opponent to use the arc path. That will give you more chance to "build your bridge" (it's harder to build bridge from a straight line jab). It's easier to defend against a staff that hit on top of your head than a spear that stab at your heart.

In the system of SC, the correct fighting posture (Chiao Ja - SC frame) is:

- Upper body lean forward slightly.
- Both legs bend.
- Back leg holds 60% weight, front leg hold 40% weight.
- Head vertical.
- Nose shouldn't pass front toes.
- Back of the head shouldn't pass the back heel.
- Both hands hold loose fist.
- Both elbow down.
- The front hand shouldn't be higher than your nose.
- The back hand shouldn't be lower than your mouth.
- The back hand should be 4 inch behind the front hand.
- ...

It has been proved that this posture may suit for the "grappler" better than any other postures. Whether it is suitable for strikers may be a debatable issue (you do need to pull your front hand back before you can punch it).

[Pork Chop]

Wow, did some bareknuckle sparring with a buddy of mine a few weeks ago.
My coach has a bareknuckle background in Thailand and Laos, he prefers it to gloved.
Also, it seems Toddy's trying to get some sort of muay boran circuit going and focusing on this type of training was in the hopes of being able to have some folks ready for that sort of competition.

The stuff we found/were taught, is directly in line with what Golden Arms wrote in that first paragraph. It's interesting when Eastern & Western methodologies agree on something. A lot of kung fu stuff was coming out easier when I didn't have the gloves slowing me down or getting in the way - not everything, but it was much easier to figure out what works for me. I'd like to do it again with some mma gloves.