The Stance2

[woliveri]

Let's try this:

http://www.geocities.com/woliveri/chan.html

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

[tanglangman]

That looks really difficult(and quite cool too), never seen it demonstrated before though.

[jediman]

Once again he take a Cat Horse Stance and makes something absolutely bizzare out of it. I love it. Ouch.

[woliveri]

It's quite unbelieveable, this stance. Like he's
using tendons rather than muscle.

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

What? You mean you can't do that? :) ;)

[woliveri]

I've only seen one other who had the potential to perform this stance and that was Deanie Wong, Master Chan's nephew. No one else came close.

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

[8stepsifu]

That stance sucks. Worthless for combat, worthless for combat training. Harmfull to the body, and horribly unaligned.

[6hmantis]

agine 8 step sheep breader has lent us his expertise

[Inquisitor]

If you think you are qualified to criticize Chan Pui, then why do you not go to Florida and challenge him for teaching his students things that are "Worthless for combat. Worthless for training. Harmfull [sic] to the body, and horribly unaligned." BTW, it should be "horribly misaligned," not "horribly unaligned." If you do not have the courage/money to challenge Chan Pui, then perhaps you can challenge one of his students who hold the rank of sifu in his system. You show disrespect in your words, and prove yourself only to be all bark and no bite if you do not back up your words.

[8stepsifu]

I could care less if he could fight, but don't idolize a sh*tty stance. I stand by what I said, It's worthless. Its very pretty, but worthless. I am qualified because I understand how and why stances are used in combat, a mantis stance deeper than 90 degrees, resting on the tendons is bad for you and only good possibly for stretching, and even then it's a poor way to stretch.

[Inquisitor]

Wait, I thought you said it was harmful to the body and worthless for combat training? So now it is "possibly good for stretching"? You choke on your own words. I repeat, if you think you are good enough to criticize a respected master, then you had better put up or shut up. You do not care if he could fight? I was under the impression that his fighting ability was under question, as he was doing a "worthless" stance that has no combat or training value whatsoever. Chan Pui's fighting ability has everything to do with what you were criticizing. This is kungfu, and in case you did not realize it, kungfu is about fighting. Like I said before, right now you are all bark and no bite.

[8stepsifu]

no, thats wushu, not kung fu. I'm not choking on my words, the stance is sh1t, possibly some yogic feat, but not, and I repeat, not good kung fu.

It's pretty, but worthless,

If you can do a 90 degree mantis stance while keeping your back strait and not tipping on your hip, then your cool, this thing, "stance" as you call it also looks hard, but is worthless.

Kung Fu is for fighting, don't try to tell me that it's good, post it on the main forum, the stance sucks, period.

[hymenopus_coronadus]

After reading several posts by this "8 step sifu" it is obvious that the guy has a psychological condition known as CPD, or Combative Personality Disorder.

[Inquisitor]

Apparently you have me confused with the person who posted the picture. I am not that person. What is in question is not whether or not the stance "sucks," but whether or not you are qualified to make such a judgement on a master such as Chan Pui. If you were paying attention, you would notice that was the point of my post, not whether or not the stance was "good" or "bad" (I do not make such an assessment). You think you are qualified to pass judgement on Chan Pui, and negative judgement at that. If you feel that you can do better, then why do you not prove it? Unless you do not have the, as you would say, "balls" to challenge Chan Pui or his students, then I suggest you keep your mouth shut until such a time as you are prepared to back up your words.

[8stepsifu]

okay, it is obvious that you are a begginer, but I'll humor you for a while.

1. The original post by Wolveri in "stance" said, "I've always been amazed by this stance, WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK?" Posted by Wolveri, it was a question for judgement.

2. I am qualified to "THINK" because I am a Sifu of Northern Praying Mantis, I know what stances are for and this one is worthless. Ask a doctor or sports medicine professional.

3. I CAN do better. I can do a correct and usefull 45 degree mantis stance that I can actually use while fighting. That is better. I can also do a 90 degree back strait, without tilting mantis stance. I have eyes, and I teach students correctly. If I saw that I would pick them up for fear of them damaging their knees.

4. I have no desire to challenge a 70 year old man, it's disrespectfull and I haven nothing to gain by it. It's not a put up or shut up situation, I didn't say that Master Choi was worthless, just this particular stance. It's wushu. Woveri said that it was all it's tendons, thats true.

5. Master Sun got in stances that were slightly wrong and we had to criticise him and tell him what he was doing wrong to test our analytical ability. It was hard at first because he's a Master and therefor always right. It helped burst that bubble and allowed me to make decisions based on what I know and not assuming things based on the practitioner.

6. If you don't agree with me, fine, then you don't know squat; but it's no reason to get all fiesty. Don't be such a sheep, look at the stance for yourself, is it functional? Does it serve any purpose whatsoever? Is there a better way to practice and train? Why would I go below 90 degrees

[bahroo]

All this talk about External form...what about internal? Balance. From Judgement comes impartiality. Learn from Grand Master Chan and from Lao Tze. Words from the TaoDeJing have actions rooted in the traditions of Wu Shu, the traditions you supposedly teach.

Who understands does not preach;
Who preaches does not understand.

Reserve your judgments and words;
Smooth differences and forgive disagreements;
Dull your wit and simplify your purpose;
Accept the world.
(LaoTze,56)

[Papieboni]

It is obvious that a amrtial artist would not use this particular stance to fight with.

But it doesn't particularly mean that it is ****! either.

In the martial arts, all or most martial arts, many things are simply for training and conditioning.

If a martial artist can stand firmly and sound in very low stances and move about smoothly and gracefully, then they will have no problem standing firm and sound when they are more upright in fighting stance and have less of a chance to be swept or knocked off their feet than a martial artist that only trians using stances that require no to little strength, balance, coordination or flexibility.

Their kicks are most likely stronger and footwork is most often better.

It is common for individuals to criticize what they dont understand, cant do or dont have. And for a person to criticize what they know nothing of is simply ignorance.

Just because you cant move around low to the ground and have control of your center of gravity doesnt mean others cant.

Some styles are accustomed to this. It is their signature.

" Moss Never Grows on a Rolling Stone"

[KeyEssence]

Each is entitled to there own opinion, well stated KickingMantis. Every technique has numerous motives, reasons, purposes and applications.

8Step, you are a sifu with little respect and open-mindedness some use the term "sifu" quite lightly, what will you teach me, how to be judgmental and close-minded.

The mere fact that at 65 Grandmaster Chan Pui can still bounce out of side splits, do jumping techniques and hold a stance with his butt rubbing the ground says lot to me. Obviously some of his training methods and "useless, worthless stances" have held some purpose, doing at 65 what most 25 year olds would have much difficulty. Tell me 8 Step how much power do you believe to be surging through those skinny legs of Chan Pui, I for one wouldn’t like to be on the receiving end of a Tam Tui delivered by the Originators last disciple.

I shall not pass judgment on another rather hold hope within my mind.
Focus on the internal conflicts and all external shall evaporate away…………………

Kicking Mantis I see you live in CA, soon I may be moving close by. Do you practice Wah Lum and perhaps we could train sometime?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

OK, since it's my Sifu in question I'll have to throw in my 2 cents. Master Chan has done quite a few amazing things in the past in both live performances and for photos. Neither are meant to portray proper fighting techniques or stances but rather to show the amount of control, strength and flexability he has mastered. It may look painful to you but it's nothing to him. He can hold a stance anywhere from full standing to squatting, stopping at any point in between. Not only that but I've seen him come out of those low stances quicker than I can come out of a much higher stance. Would he use that in a fight? Probably not. Is it an impressive photo? I think so and apparently other do as well.

Higher stances are preferable for fighting as they allow for quicker movement and don't fatigue the legs as much. Does a high stance make an impressive photo? No, anyone can do that. Does it show leg strength, balance and flexability? Again, no.

When I perform I like to throw in some non-fighting moves just to showcase my physical control and conditioning like the one-leg sqats (Tam Tui exercise) that Wah Lum is known for. I wouldn't try to apply it in a fight but the strength and balanced needed to do the move would be applied to fighting techniques.

See it for what it is and don't make assumptions or jump to conclusions. How about you impress us with a photo of one of your stances?

[woliveri]

My take on this is this. Master Chan's leg strength is something to behold. I've never seen anyone do what he can do the way he does it. He can get into this stance and hold it without even thinking about it. So what value does this hold? While I'm sure Master Chan would not use this stance in fighting, having trained his leg strength to such a degree gives him the advantage in a fight. Why? First, unless his opponent knew him, the opponent wouldn't expect the wide range of movements he has. Low, High, Middle. This also demonstrates balance and if you saw him, speed. He's very fast. With this developed leg strength he can also express power from a position that others could not. The man is impressive. I think there is great value in training this way but only if it applies to your body type. His body type suits this type of training.

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

[Inquisitor]

From reading what you wrote, it seems that you and your sifu are at contention then; he feels that the stance "...sucks. Worthless for combat, worthless for combat training. Harmfull [sic] to the body, and horribly unaligned." Again, what is in question is your sifu's right to put down one of the most well-respected masters in the world. What is even more intruiging is that not only does he put down Chan Pui, but it is obvious that he knows nothing of Wah Lum Tam Tui (otherwise, why bother asking about the style on the main forum?). I have been involved in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts for a very, very long time (so much for being a "beginner," eh 8StepSifu?). It has been my experience that very good masters know of the other very good masters; even if those masters are very low key and do not promote themselves. 8StepSifu, who do you know that can vouch for your skill? Grandmaster Sun? Who else? I doubt you can come up with a list of even five legitimate masters not in your own family who can say without reservation that you have "good kungfu."
You can say over and over again that you think the stance "sucks." We all know that you think it sucks. What I want to know is whether or not you can really back up those words. So far all I have seen is "I can back them up because I am a sifu!" and "I know combat! That's why!" I'm sorry, but so far all you have proven to me is that you have a big mouth that you can't keep shut. I can cry a million times over on this board that I am the greatest living master of all time, that I have knowledge of the secret Infinity Butterfly Hands of LoHan Steals the Peach while Exiting the Cave form, and that I can beat up everyone on this board. Does that make those statements true? Not quite. If you feel you are good enough to criticize Grandmaster Chan Pui, then perhaps you should go out there and prove it. You do not even have to challenge him. Go challenge one of his students who hold the rank of sifu in his system. I am sure that there is bound to be at least one in your area. This is the last time I am going to say it, I am tired of having to repeat myself to you. From now on I will let the topic stand as it is. Either you put up or shut up. Otherwise, you will be like those practitioners of Shaolin-Do who claim that they have knowledge of "all styles of kungfu," all talk and no play.

[KickingMantis]

I do practice the Wah Lum that I learned from my former instructor and use a lot of the techniques to build the strengh,flexibility and coordinationn of my students, however i am primarily 7 * now. I would still love to meet with you and possubly work out if you are in my areaalways feel free to email me or visit.

"The key is to begin at the beginning;high level short cuts can only lead to dead end."
"If You can't be honest nothing can happen."

[8stepsifu]

common sports medecine.

And I know the mantis stance. Thats enough.

[This message was edited by 8stepsifu on 03-26-01 at 09:32 PM.]

[8stepsifu]

who am I to trust common sense and practicality, after all, this guy has been in magazines. :rolleyes:
I've seen him doing form and I respect him, but that particular stance has no use, but to look cool.

It's a picture pose, nothing more. Don't emulate it or you'll hurt yourself. If someone sneezes from that position they will fall over.

How am I qualified? Here goes, I KNOW KUNG FU
and I can fight with it. I know what those weird movements in forms are for, and can put on the grappling gloves and do them on and apply them on unwilling opponents.

I know what mantis stance is for, and I know what things are for show. This stance is for show. It's obvious.

btw, good for you for being a wannabe martial artist for sooo many years. To bad in all your years, you haven't learned the difference from the public face fluff and whats real and actually works.

there are better ways to train flexibility than getting in a circus stance.

You don't have to agree with me, do that stance for an hour a day and call me when you need your knees scoped :p

[8StepStudent]

Although you may think my opinion is biased because an 8 Step practitioner too... This stance seems utterly useless except to show off. Kung Fu wasn't made to show off. I can vouch for 8StepSifu being good at Kung Fu, so there's one. As Miyamoto Musashi says you should throw out useless techniques. Not to mention many others have said this too.

[jediman]

Aparently it is common place among some of you to make gratuitous statements about VERY accomplished Grand Masters in systems you do not practice. If this is the case, which is evident from many of the posts about Master Chan.

This is a photograph. Nothing more.

Master Chan is more accomplished than most modern practitioners of Kung Fu in any form. That is a fact. Your skills, my skills, and anyone elses skills on this board have not reached the Grand Master level in any form. That is a fact. Show some respect, be a good teacher and offer some real advice about KF. Statements offering nothing do nothing except provoke emotional responses.

Average people do not do Kung Fu. I think we all can agree on that

[Papieboni]

"As Miyamoto Musashi says you should throw out useless techniques. Not to mention many others have said this too."

Dont just post a quote without giving us within what context it was used. I am sure that the great master Musashi was referrring to combat as all true instructors will tell you the same thing whether it be Karate, Kung Fu or anyother art.

In the photo, Master P. Chan is posing/performing and nothing more. He wasnt in combat when this shot was taken.

Performance and combat are two very different things. I am sure all great masters/teachers and students practice or perform techniques that they know very well they wouldnt use in combat. It is just that performance.

One can not judge a persons fighting ability per se by their performance and the poses that they take in pictures.

Your telling me that other styles do not perform for entertainment and demostration. The breaking of bricks, boards, concrete and etc...Using Samuri swords to slice melons, apples and other items from the head of individuals to demonstrate their skill with sharps. And this is exactly that nothing more.

Can Master P. Chan fight?, I dont know i have never witnessed it, will he use such a stance in combat i dont know i never asked him and never will, Have i heard stories of him poking the hell out of people that disrespected him Yes! Have I heard stories of him shredding leather with his fingers? Yes!. All of these things take skill, experience and mastery of one's self and art.

What he is demostrating is that through hardwork under his Sifu, The late GrandMaster Lee Kwan Shun and his elder Kung Fu brother, he has learned to work hard, preserver, and tolerate pain and learn discipline to learn the trademarks of his style and to manipulate the human body and become a hell of a martial artist before and during our time. His performance and accomplishments says it all. Whether if we agree he is a good person or not or what his intentions are is not for me to judge.

We all learn martial arts and train for different reasons. Some to fight, others for health, self-defense, lose weight, and etc......But, everything is relaly not about fighting...its about preserving an art, passing down that art...disciplining and learning about ourselves and our body/mind and etc..

You may think you know how to fight, but there is always someone better. One the street have the things that you train for i guarantee will not work the way you train for them. It is always different on the street, every circumstance is different.

Just practice and learn what interest you and what you THINK may work for you on the street when you have two-three attackers, one is grabbing your legs to pull you to the ground and the other one is attacking you with punches and all of a sudden a third comes out of the crowd and starts pounding you on the sides of tyour face? What then?

What is important is can you take a hit, not only one, but several?

and two is can you endure and continue to get up even though you've been knockeed down once or twice.

I have seen 8 step and i dont really know anything about it except what i saw while stopping by to see a class in San Francisco in the latter part of 1999 in the Sunset area.

But lets not be naive and think that it does not contain techniques or movements that are a little absurd or bizarre as well, most styles have these movements. The reason they are there could be many, who knows but to train to fight is a different type of training than training to demonstrate or perform to either attract students or show the beauty of the style.

" Moss Never Grows on a Rolling Stone"

[18elders]

Wah lum is a combination of the tam tui system, it's not a mantis stance. He is posing for a picture, get over it.

[8stepsifu]

"That particular stance has no use, but to look cool."

"It's a picture pose, nothing more."

Master Chan is cool. I just got ****ed because I wasn't allowed to have an opinion by Mr. Inquisitor. I said that it was "worthless for combat" I'm sure most of you agree. I did NOT say Grandmaster Chan Poi is worthless for combat, that would be stupid. I can only hope to have that kind of balance and flexibility when I'm his age.


to sum up this whole ****n mess,

POST- What do you think?

8ss-"I think it's bad for combat, but looks cool."

Inquisitor- How dare you! You *******, go fight to back it up, monkeybrains!

:mad:


It's sunny outside, go play :cool:

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Inquisitor,

Just to set the record straight, when I posted "OK, since it's my Sifu in question I'll have to throw in my 2 cents." I was referring to Master Chan being my Sifu, not 8stepsifu.

Also, as far as that stance being "Worthless for combat, worthless for combat training" it's my opinion not to rule out anything for combat usefullness. Even though it's just a photo op stance it's still makes for a difficult target, especially knowing that he (personally) can attack or retreat from that "sh*tty stance". Just because you or I can utilize it effectively doesn't mean it won't work for him.

[xygie]

8stepsifu has 2 sets of standards...one that bends with the wind to suite his own needs...and another for everyone else.

By the way, the 8 stances pictured on the 8step.com web site are all incorrect.

That's not how they were recorded or taught by 8 Step Grandmaster Wei-Xiao Tang.

[hymenopus_coronadus]

8 step sifu's posts do seem to share a common manic psychosis characterized by grandiose delusions of exceptional talent.