What does it take - and how long does it take...

[Ultimatewingchun]

to learn wing chun?

Obviously, to learn (and understand the significance of) the 3 forms, how to punch, kick, elbow, knee, the wooden dummy, footwork, drills like pak sao/pak da....bong sao/lop sao...dan chi sao...double arm chi sao....kiu sao (if your system has it)...chi geak (if your system has it)...gor sau....sparring...etc.

(Not even talking about the weapons, for the moment).

It's really not only a matter of actual time spent (ie.- xxx amount of years)...but also, how that time is spent. Meaning: How much actual instruction did you get? From your instructor(s)....from elder students (sihings), etc?

I have always been very suspicious, for example, of people who do the jack-of-all-trades routine by going from wing chun instructor-to-instructor-to instructor - before actually learning the bulk of the main thrust of what each particular person has to offer...

and I've always been suspicious of the "there are no authorities in wing chun" attitude - as this is usually an indication that the person saying that has not spent any significant amount of time actually learning from one (or more) specific instructors - and is now trying to justify himself with such a statement...

(which actually means: "since there are no real 'authorities' in wing chun - I don't need to spend much time training with anybody").

Just a reminder now: This is a thread about wing chun, and not about some other art.

Discuss.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Probably a good solid 3 years of training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay. But what about the other point?

3 years spent with who, how often, and doing what?

[chusauli]

Honestly, it only takes as long as a student can absorb it, and that varies. Many stay in a class, but get little hands on with a teacher, and just mimic the motions. They really don't get much, just a facsimile.

That's why I prefer to teach one on one, although I have a group class, too.

If a student practices on his own or with a partner 4 hours a day for 5 days a week and 50 weeks a year, they have 1000 hours under their belt. But real mastery is at least 10,000 hours of work. So probably 10 years is what you need.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okay. But what about the other point?

3 years spent with who, how often, and doing what?

I am assuming a typical class environment with someone with typical athletic ability.
3-4 X a week, 90 min classes, that type of thing.
In 3 years one can get a good grasp of the basics and probably a bit more, ie: to LEARN WC.
Become proficient in it is another story.

[stonecrusher69]

I would say 3-5 years but no longer then that if your training say 3 days a week at least 10 hrs min a week and training on your own on off class days. Any longer then that either your not training or the teacher is not teaching or some mixure of both. Assuming the student does not have a handy cap. Some students learn very slow especially if there a biginner and middle aged.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks for the replies so far, guys.

As for this: "If a student practices on his own or with a partner 4 hours a day for 5 days a week and 50 weeks a year, they have 1000 hours under their belt."

***WELL, okay, Robert, but 4 hours per day - 5 days per week?

I have to assume that this person probably does not have a full time job. And very little (or no) family responsibilities. I don't know too many people like that. Do you?

[t_niehoff]

to learn wing chun?

Obviously, to learn (and understand the significance of) the 3 forms, how to punch, kick, elbow, knee, the wooden dummy, footwork, drills like pak sao/pak da....bong sao/lop sao...dan chi sao...double arm chi sao....kiu sao (if your system has it)...chi geak (if your system has it)...gor sau....sparring...etc.

(Not even talking about the weapons, for the moment).


Like anything else, it depends on the student.

When I began training with Robert, for example, I already knew all the WCK forms, the drills, etc. from having practiced WCK for 17 years, and so all I needed to do was make some adjustments.



It's really not only a matter of actual time spent (ie.- xxx amount of years)...but also, how that time is spent. Meaning: How much actual instruction did you get? From your instructor(s)....from elder students (sihings), etc?


WCK has a curriclum which is comprised of the forms, the drills, the kuit, etc. It shouldn't take a person long to learn these things. But learning the curriculum and practicing the curriculum is the beginner level of WCK. That is not practicing WCK. Practicing WCK is fighting with WCK.

As with any athletic activity, whether WCK or boxing or wrestling or whatever, all you NEED to do is learn the fundamentals and then practice using those fundamentals in the activity itself against quality people. By doing WCK, I mean sparring with it -- and against good quality opponents.

The problem with your "actual time spent" is that for most people, the time they spend is rehashing the beginning level over and over again, continuing to do forms and unrealsitic drills their entire life.



I have always been very suspicious, for example, of people who do the jack-of-all-trades routine by going from wing chun instructor-to-instructor-to instructor - before actually learning the bulk of the main thrust of what each particular person has to offer...


Since most people only have the curriculum to offer, they don't need to spend that much time learning that.

Let me ask you: once you finish grammar school, do you continue to stay there or move on?



and I've always been suspicious of the "there are no authorities in wing chun" attitude - as this is usually an indication that the person saying that has not spent any significant amount of time actually learning from one (or more) specific instructors - and is now trying to justify himself with such a statement...

Since I am the only person that I know of who has said this, let me clarify what it means. "There are no authorities in WCK" means that no one can tell us how things should be done in WCK -- WCK is not like judo, for example, where the Kodokan can issue edicts clarifying what is and is not permissible in judo. In WCK, we all have the curriculum (though in various forms). But no one can tell us that this or that must be used or done a certain way -- what matters is whether or not it works for YOU (in fighting). If anyone can use the tools of WCK successfully, then who can say that what they are doing is wrong? So if someone can do X but some "master" says "that is not how you are supposed to do it", I don't care because he doesn't speak for WCK - he is not an authority.

Hawkins Cheung was asked once if Yip Man taught him the footwork and he said,"Yip didn't teach me the footwork, my opponents did." He didn't look to Yip for some authoritative answer of how to make his art work -- he found out for himself by doing it. That is how all athletes develo. Hawkins didn't look to an authority for an answer, he looked to function, to results as a guide.

"Let application be your sifu" is Robert's motto and it is a profound message. It advises us to let results guide us, not dogma. As such, WCK is a personal art.



(which actually means: "since there are no real 'authorities' in wing chun - I don't need to spend much time training with anybody").


It means just the opposite. Since there are no authorities, it is up to YOU and only YOU to find out the answers, and the answers can only be found through application, through fighting with WCK.



Just a reminder now: This is a thread about wing chun, and not about some other art.

Discuss...

Wouldn't the same apply for any martial art? Like Catch?

[chusauli]

A few of my students do that. They are students with little responsibility...

I did that throughout Intermediate school, high school, college and throughout my 20's to 30's. Now at nearly 47, that has dropped dramatically because of business, kids, private sessions, etc. I have to look for more efficient workouts and quality time. It can be done, perhaps 1-2 hours in the morning, 2 hours late at night...

That is crazy and fanatical...

[Ultimatewingchun]

"When I began training with Robert, for example, I already knew all the WCK forms, the drills, etc. from having practiced WCK for 17 years, and so all I needed to do was make some adjustments." (Niehoff)

***OH REALLY? Who did you train with previously, and how much of that time was actually spent with them?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I have always been very suspicious, for example, of people who do the jack-of-all-trades routine by going from wing chun instructor-to-instructor-to instructor - before actually learning the bulk of the main thrust of what each particular person has to offer..." (Victor Parlati)

"Since most people only have the curriculum to offer, they don't need to spend that much time learning that." (Terence Niehoff)

***VERY STRANGE RESPONSE, since you did not address just how much material is in such a curriculum. You just assumed that it couldn't be much - and hence your remark, "they don't need much time learning that." How do you know that?

You don't know that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Hawkins Cheung was asked once if Yip Man taught him the footwork and he said,"Yip didn't teach me the footwork, my opponents did." He didn't look to Yip for some authoritative answer of how to make his art work -- he found out for himself by doing it." (Niehoff)


***I FIND THIS TO BE QUITE BIZARRE, actually.

Since you decided to bring up another art (catch wrestling)...I'll now use BJJ as an example.

Can anyone picture Helio telling Rickson, Royce, Rorian, Royler, etc. that they need to figure out
on their own how to do this or that?

True, in the final analysis, after being given the material and being drilled on it under Helio's supervision for a period of time - they will have to work out many particular nuances on their own - in relation to their own particular stengths, weaknesses, body type, etc...

but that's as far as it goes.

[t_niehoff]

"When I began training with Robert, for example, I already knew all the WCK forms, the drills, etc. from having practiced WCK for 17 years, and so all I needed to do was make some adjustments." (Niehoff)

***OH REALLY? Who did you train with previously, and how much of that time was actually spent with them?

Yes, really. My lineage in wing tsun is through Luk Ming-Kai, a direct Hong Kong student of Leung Ting's. My lineage in TWC is mainly (except for some Cheung seminars) through Jarrhet Whittico, my training partner (who, btw, Marty and Robert have both met), who in the mid-80's moved to Australia to study directly and full-time with Cheung (and was David Cheung's roommate) and later taught me when he returned.

How long? Well, I will be the first to admit that I, like everyone else, wasted a great deal of time repeating the beginner level of WCK (the forms, drills, etc.) over and over believing as we were told that this would bring us skill. I found that no matter how much I practiced the forms, the drills, etc. that I couldn't make my WCK work - to a level I was satisfied with - and that led me to go to seminars, etc. Fortunately, I found the WCML and that led me to Robert. Robert showed me that I lacked certain fundamentals, like the faat and body structure (to name just two), and with those fundamentals and a change in how I trained them (letting application be my sifu and adopting functional training method), I am now satisfied with my progress.

Your skill and understanding in WCK comes from your own work, not from your sifu. My father was a terrible chess player but he taught me to play. I became a chessmaster. It wasn't my father who made me a chessmaster, it was the work I put into it and all the games against good players that I played that made me chessmaster. In WCK you stand on your own.

[t_niehoff]

"Hawkins Cheung was asked once if Yip Man taught him the footwork and he said,"Yip didn't teach me the footwork, my opponents did." He didn't look to Yip for some authoritative answer of how to make his art work -- he found out for himself by doing it." (Niehoff)


***I FIND THIS TO BE QUITE BIZARRE, actually.

Since you decided to bring up another art (catch wrestling)...I'll now use BJJ as an example.

Can anyone picture Helio telling Rickson, Royce, Rorian, Royler, etc. that they need to figure out on their own how to do this or that?

True, in the final analysis, after being given the material and being drilled on it under Helio's supervision for a period of time - they will have to work out many particular nuances on their own - in relation to their own particular stengths, weaknesses, body type, etc...

but that's as far as it goes.

I can tell that you don't go train at any grappling schools. There are guys at my BJJ school that have rarely attended any technique classes -- they just go to sparring classes. Yet they pick everything up -- without drilling or anyone standing over them pointing out details -- and do very well. It's the same in every sport.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"...and I've always been suspicious of the "there are no authorities in wing chun" attitude - as this is usually an indication that the person saying that has not spent any significant amount of time actually learning from one (or more) specific instructors - and is now trying to justify himself with such a statement...which actually means: "since there are no real 'authorities' in wing chun - I don't need to spend much time training with anybody". (Victor Parlati)

.................................


"It means just the opposite. Since there are no authorities, it is up to YOU and only YOU to find out the answers, and the answers can only be found through application, through fighting with WCK." (Terence Niehoff)


***AGAIN, your response does not address what was being said. And furthermore, you have confirmed, once again, the fallacy that you believe that there are no real "authorities" in wing chun.

Of course there are. We can argue forever about whose name should be on the list, and whose name should be left off - but they do exist.

And once again, it's been my experience and observation through many years that those who deny there are authorities are the very same people who haven't spent (and know they haven't spent) enough time training directly with someone who is something of an authority.

Or perhaps more than just "something"; but in fact, a true master (or grandmaster) of the art.

[t_niehoff]

***VERY STRANGE RESPONSE,[/B] since you did not address just how much material is in such a curriculum. You just assumed that it couldn't be much - and hence your remark, "they don't need much time learning that." How do you know that?

You don't know that.

Learning and training in WCK is like any TCMA, it has two parts.

The first part is the curriculum. The curriculum of WCK is the forms, the drills (lopsao, chi sao, san sao, etc.), the kuit, etc.

The second part is application - learning and developing your ability to use those things from the curriculum.

No one can teach you the second part. You can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself, by fighting with your WCK and trying to make it work. You learn to box by boxing, you learn to grapple by grappling; no one can give it to you. You get better by training (sparring) with better and better people. It's true in boxing, it's true in grappling and it's true in WCK.

[t_niehoff]

"It means just the opposite. Since there are no authorities, it is up to YOU and only YOU to find out the answers, and the answers can only be found through application, through fighting with WCK." (Terence Niehoff)


***AGAIN, your response does not address what was being said. And furthermore, you have confirmed, once again, the fallacy that you believe that there are no real "authorities" in wing chun.

Of course there are. We can argue forever about whose name should be on the list, and whose name should be left off - but they do exist.

And once again, it's been my experience and observation through many years that those who deny there are authorities are the very same people who haven't spent (and know they haven't spent) enough time training directly with someone who is something of an authority.

Or perhaps more than just "something"; but in fact, a true master (or grandmaster) of the art.

You don't appear to know what a fallacy is.

If you want to make someone an authority over you, that's fine with me. For me, I don't take anyone's word for it but see for myself. Of course, this is just following Yip Man's advice of "I may be tricking you; go out and see for yourself." But I didn't adopt taht because I consider Yip an authority either, it's just that I've examined it and it makes good sense. :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

There are guys at my BJJ school that have rarely attended any technique classes -- they just go to sparring classes. Yet they pick everything up -- without drilling or anyone standing over them pointing out details -- and do very well. It's the same in every sport." (Niehoff)


***YEAH, with the exceptional students. We all hear stories about guys in every sport (including martial arts) that are naturals - great athletes who can pick up things very quickly. But they are the exception - not the rule.

[t_niehoff]

There are guys at my BJJ school that have rarely attended any technique classes -- they just go to sparring classes. Yet they pick everything up -- without drilling or anyone standing over them pointing out details -- and do very well. It's the same in every sport." (Niehoff)


***YEAH, with the exceptional students. We all hear stories about guys in every sport (including martial arts) that are naturals - great athletes who can pick up things very quickly. But they are the exception - not the rule.

I don't think they are exceptional. I think this is just the natural way people learn -- by doing, and observing what is going on while they do it. I think the whole "martial art mindset" is really just an artifice that gets in the way of that natural way of learning.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Learning and training in WCK is like any TCMA, it has two parts.

The first part is the curriculum. The curriculum of WCK is the forms, the drills (lopsao, chi sao, san sao, etc.), the kuit, etc.

The second part is application - learning and developing your ability to use those things from the curriculum.

No one can teach you the second part." (Niehoff)


***NOT TRUE AT ALL. For the great majority of students - a competent instructor is required in order to help guide one through the curriculum in application. Okay, John...Here's how pak da can be used in fighting (and not just the pak sao you did in the form or in the pak sao drill)...here's how you use bong/lop in a real fight/spar application - (and not just how you do these two moves in the forms or the drills), etc. etc.

..............................


"You can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself, by fighting with your WCK and trying to make it work." (Niehoff)

***A HALF-TRUTH, which means the other half is false. (As in the word "fallacy"). It's not "you can ONLY learn the second part by yourself" - it's BOTH getting instruction about the second part from a competent authority, ie.- your instructor...

AND it's working it out for yourself - with an occasional "check in" with the teachings you learned (or might still learn) from your instructor.

Now ultimately, it is up to your own self induced and self devised efforts.

And on this point I'll return to something Robert said earlier: it probably should take about 10 years to actually "master" wing chun - assuming you got competent instruction - and training methods) from a wing chun instructor in the first place. That's probably about right.

But yeah, in the final analysis, it is up to you, and you alone. You must become the authority.

IN THE FINALE.

[couch]

"Learning and training in WCK is like any TCMA, it has two parts.

The first part is the curriculum. The curriculum of WCK is the forms, the drills (lopsao, chi sao, san sao, etc.), the kuit, etc.

The second part is application - learning and developing your ability to use those things from the curriculum.

No one can teach you the second part." (Niehoff)


***NOT TRUE AT ALL. For the great majority of students - a competent instructor is required in order to help guide one through the curriculum in application. Okay, John...Here's how pak da can be used in fighting (and not just the pak sao you did in the form or in the pak sao drill)...here's how you use bong/lop in a real fight/spar application - (and not just how you do these two moves in the forms or the drills), etc. etc.



After much deliberation, I have to disagree. And for the sake of internet conversation, I will explain why.

I no longer believe that a competent instructor is required to show how an application works specifically...because you're showing them how YOU do it. The only way for a student to understand how something works is to try and hit them in the face and let them figure it out for themselves. So, I will no longer explain things, I'll let the things explain themselves.

Back to the question of how long should it take to learn the WC system and be proficient in applying it:
one year, coming twice a week for a 90 minute session if the student/training partner puts in a little work at home.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"There are guys at my BJJ school that have rarely attended any technique classes -- they just go to sparring classes. Yet they pick everything up -- without drilling or anyone standing over them pointing out details -- and do very well. It's the same in every sport." (Niehoff)


***YEAH, with the exceptional students. We all hear stories about guys in every sport (including martial arts) that are naturals - great athletes who can pick up things very quickly. But they are the exception - not the rule. (Victor Parlati)


"I don't think they are exceptional. I think this is just the natural way people learn -- by doing, and observing what is going on while they do it. I think the whole 'martial art mindset' is really just an artifice that gets in the way of that natural way of learning." (Niehoff)


***AND HEREIN lies the whole crux of the matter. You don't think that the students who can pick things up (and do them really well, and with full understanding of what they're doing)...one-two-three...are exceptions, and not the rule.

I think they are. And I'm talking as someone who has taught literally hundreds of people over the last 25 years. These people we're talking about are very rare. Maybe about 1 in 10.

[t_niehoff]

***NOT TRUE AT ALL. For the great majority of students - a competent instructor is required in order to help guide one through the curriculum in application. Okay, John...Here's how pak da can be used in fighting (and not just the pak sao you did in the form or in the pak sao drill)...here's how you use bong/lop in a real fight/spar application - (and not just how you do these two moves in the forms or the drills), etc. etc.


There are two major problems with your view.

The first is that much of what is taught as "application" in WCK isn't genuine application. Application means someone is actually using that in fighting successfully. What is mainly taught as "application" is fantasy, what people imagine (fantasize) will work. They are not taking things they are actually doing in fighting (particularly against quality people) and teaching those things as they do them to their students.

The second problem is even if there is something that works for YOU, that doesn't mean it will work or work the same way or in the same context with someone else. They need to find that for themselves.



"You can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself, by fighting with your WCK and trying to make it work." (Niehoff)

***A HALF-TRUTH, which means the other half is false. (As in the word "fallacy"). It's not "you can ONLY learn the second part by yourself" - it's BOTH getting instruction about the second part from a competent authority, ie.- your instructor...

AND it's working it out for yourself - with perhaps an occasional "check in" with the teachings you learned (or might still learn) from your instructor.

Now ultimately, it is up to your own self induced and self devised efforts.


You develop skill in anything by practicing the skillitself; fighting skill comes from practicing fighting. Your growth will depend on the amount of quality (ie, level of your opponents) time you spend sparring. So it is mainly your opponents that teach you (assuming you are observant).

There is no doubt that a good coach in whatever art you do can help you by helping you observe, pointing out things you miss, and by giving you suggestions, etc. But he can't do the work for you. And it is ONLY through the work (the fighting) that you gain skill and knowledge/understanding beyond the superficial level.

But, we need to let our results guide us. There is a lot of really bad adviceout there, there are a lot of poor fighters that believe they are good, etc. And listening to these "authorties" won't help you but hinder your development. This is why I say to go visit good, PROVEN (that you can see for yourself) fighters and fight trainers -- that way you know they know what they are talking about. In any event, the results still need to beyour guide. If you aren't getting results or the results you want, its either because you are not doing the work or you are listening to poor advice.



And on this point I'll return to something Robert said earlier: it probably should take about 10 years to actually "master" wing chun (assuming you got competent instruction (and training methods) from a wing chun instructor in the first place. That's probably about right.


My view is that with competent instruction in any martial art, if you don't have the fundamentals and can use them at a level to defeat untrained fighters your size and with good attributes after two years of consistent training, then something is seriously wrong.

WCK is no more complicated than boxing or MT, and you can become a pretty good fighter in 2 years in those arts.



But yeah, in the final analysis, it is up to you, and you alone. You must become the authority.

Why would anyone want to be an authority?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
***NOT TRUE AT ALL. For the great majority of students - a competent instructor is required in order to help guide one through the curriculum in application. Okay, John...Here's how pak da can be used in fighting (and not just the pak sao you did in the form or in the pak sao drill)...here's how you use bong/lop in a real fight/spar application - (and not just how you do these two moves in the forms or the drills), etc. etc.

.....................................

"There are two major problems with your view.

The first is that much of what is taught as "application" in WCK isn't genuine application." (Niehoff)

***AGAIN, you wouldn't know that. Not about me, anyway. Have you ever sparred with me? No? Then you wouldn't know what I can "apply" and what I can't. Now would you? For example, the TWC entry technique. How would you know whether or not I can really apply that move without ever sparring me yourself?

So when you talk of "non-genuine" wing chun applications, you might be talking about yourself, perhaps, I don't know - and perhaps for some other people you've sparred with - but not me.

[Hendrik]

IT takes me 3 years to loose up my legs in an equal shoulder stance.

It takes me 25 years to realize what is a six directional force vectors.

It takes me 30 years after having the Kuen Kuit to know the basic of what SLT is for.

[sihing]

I don't know if one can pinpoint an exact amount of time it takes to learn WC/VT. One question that must be asked and raised is that not all WC is the same or equal. In my experience TWC was much easier to learn than WSLVT, now maybe this is due to my own experience with it, and coming from one method to learn another method that is structurally and mechanically the opposite didn't help either. For example, in TWC I never learned to pivot, as we always picked our feet up and placed them down, so when I began training in WSL VT, this was difficult to pick up. In saying this, I am coming from a student’s perspective as well as a teacher’s perspective, as I taught TWC for over a decade, and am teaching what I know of the ABMVT method as passed down by Ernie Barrios.

As Robert mentioned, on a general note, the more time you put into something (10,000 hrs as opposed to 1,000hrs), the better you should be at it, but if you know little of what you are doing (no instructor or good instruction available), then you will still be wasting your time. I realized on my 1st trip to LA to train with Ernie and Sifu Lam, that 6mths there is like 2-3yrs anywhere else. Not only because Sifu Lam has a full time school (4-6hrs a day of instruction if your up to it), he is also present to supervise and practice with. He also (like Ernie) will answer any and all questions asked of him, there are no secrets with those two. After some time training this method, and with repeated sessions with both Gary and Ernie, I asked some of the other students training with me the question, "Could we figure out the rest of this stuff on our own"? The answer was NO. The Wing Chun as I know it today, is very complex and precise, that is when it comes to the learning process, and what it all means. The application of it is easy(that is to say, the stuff will come out in you easily, with no thought process involved), but you have to have gone thru the learning method quite thoroughly to say that about yourself.

I agree with Terence, there is the training side of Wing Chun, where one is going thru the curriculum (chi sau, forms, laap sau, dummy, weapons, so forth..), and then there is the application side of it. The application side of it is up to the individual, how they want to proceed with it that is. The learning side is strict and must be followed along very closely with someone qualified to teach it, otherwise it is relatively easy to stray off course. Practicing with those that are further down the road than you is also a good thing, as here you can learn from osmoses. Also it is helpful to understand intellectually what you are doing, and how the concepts and principles of Wing Chun relate combat. One cannot train 24/7, so while you are enjoying some downtime enjoying a book like the one David Peterson wrote, or a good Wing Chun video might help answer some questions one may have, I know that it won't hurt you in anyway.

So, I would say that it would take a year to go thru the basic curriculum, so that the student knows and understand everything that it entails, then another few years to really absorb what it is teaching you. Then you can start applying it sparring against whomever you want to, to whatever intensity level you want to. This is a personal choice as not everyone wants to be a fighter:eek:

James

[Knifefighter]

"Hawkins Cheung was asked once if Yip Man taught him the footwork and he said,"Yip didn't teach me the footwork, my opponents did." He didn't look to Yip for some authoritative answer of how to make his art work -- he found out for himself by doing it." (Niehoff)


***I FIND THIS TO BE QUITE BIZARRE, actually.

Since you decided to bring up another art (catch wrestling)...I'll now use BJJ as an example.

Can anyone picture Helio telling Rickson, Royce, Rorian, Royler, etc. that they need to figure out
on their own how to do this or that?

True, in the final analysis, after being given the material and being drilled on it under Helio's supervision for a period of time - they will have to work out many particular nuances on their own - in relation to their own particular stengths, weaknesses, body type, etc...

but that's as far as it goes.

Seems kind of ironic that you have started this thread and then use grappling as your analogy. Does the fact that your grappling is almost all from video teaching not seem hypocritical to you?

[Liddel]

I don't think they are exceptional. I think this is just the natural way people learn -- by doing, and observing what is going on while they do it. I think the whole "martial art mindset" is really just an artifice that gets in the way of that natural way of learning.

Wouldnt this apply to a bunch of things in life not realted to fighting, i mean i could have skipped university/college and just gone out into the workforce and got on the job training if i follow your midset...some things that would be the best idea others it would set me back...... :rolleyes:

Is it the subject the individual or both that is the deciding factor ?

DREW

[t_niehoff]

"There are two major problems with your view.

The first is that much of what is taught as "application" in WCK isn't genuine application." (Niehoff)

***AGAIN, you wouldn't know that. Not about me, anyway. Have you ever sparred with me? No? Then you wouldn't know what I can "apply" and what I can't. Now would you? For example, the TWC entry technique. How would you know whether or not I can really apply that move without ever sparring me yourself?


I wasn't talking about YOU, I was referring to your view. Lots of people teach"applications" but I know they aren't doing those things in fighting and I'm absolutely certain they aren't doing them against anyone with decent skills? How do I know? From my experience and from being around good people. You see what is possible.

As far as the TWC entry technique -- it's silly. Maybe you've "sparred" at low levels of intensity with your students and can pull it off. But you're not going to MT schools and pulling it off, you're not going to MMA schools and pulling it off, etc. Anyone who has spent any time training with good fighters will tell you the same thing. I could point out all the flaws in it but you'll just disagree. When you can show me someone who can pull it off against good people let me know. But it will never happen. You could go over to sherdog or mma.tv and ask them what they think, but we both know they'll tell you it's silly too.

And, quite frankly, it is stufflike THAT which makes me question anyone who says they are fighting as part oftheir training.



So when you talk of "non-genuine" wing chun applications, you might be talking about yourself, perhaps, I don't know - and perhaps for some other people you've sparred with - but not me.

I don't believe ANYONE in WCK who talks about application; the only application I believe is what I see them do in hard sparring (and against decent people). Everything else is bullsh1t as far as I'm concerned.

[chusauli]

After much deliberation, I have to disagree. And for the sake of internet conversation, I will explain why.

I no longer believe that a competent instructor is required to show how an application works specifically...because you're showing them how YOU do it. The only way for a student to understand how something works is to try and hit them in the face and let them figure it out for themselves. So, I will no longer explain things, I'll let the things explain themselves.

Back to the question of how long should it take to learn the WC system and be proficient in applying it:
one year, coming twice a week for a 90 minute session if the student/training partner puts in a little work at home.


LOL!! I love that! I have to teach like that!!! Just punch them in the face and let them figure it out!

[AdrianK]

IT takes me 3 years to loose up my legs in an equal shoulder stance.

It takes me 25 years to realize what is a six directional force vectors.

It takes me 30 years after having the Kuen Kuit to know the basic of what SLT is for.

Hence one of my major problems in the martial arts, lack of competent teachers. No concept should take 30 years to understand. No concept in even the most complex of sciences, takes 30 years to learn.

[-木叶-]

I agree with T's posts in this thread, quite useful.

For once you're not talking about just fight, fight, fight but your reason
behind it and it really helps us to see why :)

[Hendrik]

Hence one of my major problems in the martial arts, lack of competent teachers. No concept should take 30 years to understand. No concept in even the most complex of sciences, takes 30 years to learn.


That is you not me.

No concept take 30 years to understand or learn? may be may be not;
however, there are realization that couldnt even be attained in a life time.

Look at those Zen Monks who cultivate in a life time and not neccessary to attain enlightenment.

It is about realization, some might attain in 1 second some might take many life time.


As what Wang Xiang-Zai said :

禅家者流，乘有大小，宗有南北，道有正邪，学者须从最上乘，具正法眼，悟第一义。若小乘禅，非 正法也，论拳 如论禅，内家拳则第一义也，外家拳，则小乘禅，已落第二义矣。

大抵禅道，惟在妙悟，拳道亦在妙悟。然悟有深浅，有分限，有透彻之悟，有但得一知半解之悟。
....不立招术，乃透彻之悟也。其它拳术，虽有所 悟，但皆立招设术，俱非第一义也。若以为不然，则是见拳之不广，参拳之不熟耳。试取外家拳谱而 熟参之，次取 太极，八卦而 熟参之，其真 是非，自有不能隐者 !

[couch]

That is you not me.

No concept take 30 years to understand or learn? may be may be not;
however, there are realization that couldnt even be attained in a life time.

Look at those Zen Monks who cultivate in a life time and not neccessary to attain enlightenment.

It is about realization, some might attain in 1 second some might take many life time.


As what Wang Xiang-Zai said :

禅家者流，乘有大小，宗有南北，道有正邪，学者须从最上乘，具正法眼，悟第一义。若小乘禅，非 正法也，论拳 如论禅，内家拳则第一义也，外家拳，则小乘禅，已落第二义矣。

大抵禅道，惟在妙悟，拳道亦在妙悟。然悟有深浅，有分限，有透彻之悟，有但得一知半解之悟。
....不立招术，乃透彻之悟也。其它拳术，虽有所 悟，但皆立招设术，俱非第一义也。若以为不然，则是见拳之不广，参拳之不熟耳。试取外家拳谱而 熟参之，次取 太极，八卦而 熟参之，其真 是非，自有不能隐者 !

When I train in a combat-orientated martial art (not "Peace Martial Arts" where they play dodgeball at the end of class to wear down the children), I really don't want it take a lifetime for an instant of realization.

I want results. :) Now. :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"As far as the TWC entry technique -- it's silly." (Niehoff)


***AGAIN, you wouldn't know that. Who have you sparred competitively that used that technique? No one? So what you say is "silly" has to be taken with a grain of salt.

A big one.

Because the very same standards of "testing" things that you like to apply to everyone else - apply to you also.

Can you show us something wherein you demonstrate what's good wing chun - and what isn't?

Oh, you refuse to do that?

Then your opinions have to be taken with a GIANT grain of salt.

[Hardwork108]

to learn wing chun?

Obviously, to learn (and understand the significance of) the 3 forms, how to punch, kick, elbow, knee, the wooden dummy, footwork, drills like pak sao/pak da....bong sao/lop sao...dan chi sao...double arm chi sao....kiu sao (if your system has it)...chi geak (if your system has it)...gor sau....sparring...etc.

(Not even talking about the weapons, for the moment).

It's really not only a matter of actual time spent (ie.- xxx amount of years)...but also, how that time is spent. Meaning: How much actual instruction did you get? From your instructor(s)....from elder students (sihings), etc?

I have always been very suspicious, for example, of people who do the jack-of-all-trades routine by going from wing chun instructor-to-instructor-to instructor - before actually learning the bulk of the main thrust of what each particular person has to offer...

and I've always been suspicious of the "there are no authorities in wing chun" attitude - as this is usually an indication that the person saying that has not spent any significant amount of time actually learning from one (or more) specific instructors - and is now trying to justify himself with such a statement...

(which actually means: "since there are no real 'authorities' in wing chun - I don't need to spend much time training with anybody").

Just a reminder now: This is a thread about wing chun, and not about some other art.

Discuss...

In our lineage of Wing Chun it would take at least 6 years to complete the system ( training 3 times a week 2 - 3 hours each go, with plenty of "homework thrown in)after which one would need to perfect and better understand what he has learnt.

As always, once you complete any style of kung fu then it is up to you how far you can take it. My sifu also recommends one to look into other kung fu styles, specially styles that build on what one has learnt,

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Learning and training in WCK is like any TCMA, it has two parts.

The first part is the curriculum. The curriculum of WCK is the forms, the drills (lopsao, chi sao, san sao, etc.), the kuit, etc.

The second part is application - learning and developing your ability to use those things from the curriculum.

No one can teach you the second part. You can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself, by fighting with your WCK and trying to make it work. You learn to box by boxing, you learn to grapple by grappling; no one can give it to you. You get better by training (sparring)." (Niehoff)


***PARTICULARLY want to expand upon my calling the statement "No one can teach you the second part...you can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself" - A HALF TRUTH.

This idea only covers half of what it takes to apply a curriculum.

It's been my experience, not only in martial arts, but by watching baseball my whole life - and playing a lot of it when I was a kid/teenager...hockey the same thing...ditto football...

that there's always a BACK-AND-FORTH between getting instruction - and doing it - getting more instruction - and doing it.

This process is absolutely essential if one wants to avoid mediocrity.

Although the amount of actual time spent learning/drilling gets smaller-and-smaller as time goes on - in relation to the "doing", nevertheless, it never really ends completely.

Baseball players, for example, always travel with batting coaches, pitching coaches, etc. - EVEN IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES. Position players get batting practice everyday, and often consult other players (and former players) - and of course coaches and managers ABOUT NEW WAYS OF APPROACHING THE PLATE, OF HITTING THE FASTBALL, HANDLING THE CURVE, THE SLIDER, THE SPLIT FINGER FASTBALL, ETC.

And oftentimes that consultation includes hours of drilling right in front of the coach. Sometimes it's even the coach who is pitching to the hitters during batting practice - precisely because he's trying to TEACH them something NEW.

Or to remind them of something they may have forgotten. Or to teach them a better way of doing something they learned in the past.

The same with fielding their position, and the same with pitchers literally "going back to school" by consulting coaches and other pitchers about how to throw a pitch they've NEVER LEARNED BEFORE, or a new way of throwing pitches they did learn years ago.

Does this process sound familiar? It should.

[Hendrik]

When I train in a combat-orientated martial art (not "Peace Martial Arts" where they play dodgeball at the end of class to wear down the children), I really don't want it take a lifetime for an instant of realization.

I want results. :) Now. :)

Very Good that is you.

my interest is to find out how far can the set carry me and how much I can reconstruct what happen in 1850's red boat.

[AdrianK]

That is you not me.

No concept take 30 years to understand or learn? may be may be not;
however, there are realization that couldnt even be attained in a life time.

Look at those Zen Monks who cultivate in a life time and not neccessary to attain enlightenment.

It is about realization, some might attain in 1 second some might take many life time.

You have to understand that the modern education systems and the modern scientific community have the ability to rationalize and teach every known concept and idea. Even the most complex of these ideas and concepts, even the ones that build off of an entire science, to understand, do not take 30 years to learn.

Yes, it could take you personally a lifetime to truly, in the depths of your "soul" or whatever, grasp every aspect of a certain concept - But at the same time, if those same people just opened up to modern methods they could speed along that process considerably.

[Hendrik]

You have to understand that the modern education systems and the modern scientific community have the ability to rationalize and teach every known concept and idea. Even the most complex of these ideas and concepts, even the ones that build off of an entire science, to understand, do not take 30 years to learn.

Yes, it could take you personally a lifetime to truly, in the depths of your "soul" or whatever, grasp every aspect of a certain concept - But at the same time, if those same people just opened up to modern methods they could speed along that process considerably.



You have a very legitimate view and reason.

However, have you ever question why is we all heard about the Short Jin of WCK which exist in the board of the red boat which suppose to be train in the SLT and now could not be found?

also,
how many people knows how to quiet one's mind with the the modern education systems and the modern scientific community which has the ability to rationalize and teach every known concept and idea.?

does the modern scientific know what is a quiet mind and how to get to there? since quiet mind is not an idea and not a concept but the based of all minds which give raise to the rational and speculation mind.

See, what can be thought is not difficult to learn, what beyond can be thought is something one needs to realize ; and in reality, that realization is so simple because it is just there; but it is so complex because the speculation mind just wont let go, it doesnt shut up. so the realization is impossible.


even the modern science can use biofeedback machine such as these
http://www.growing.com/mind/Performance/index.htm

that is still some mind state but not quiet mind or silence for silence is not a state but the based of all mind state. that is the silence one spend life time to get there.

So why is the silence important? because in VT's kuen kuit it said, Using silence to lead action. Thus, until one knows silence and can return to silence at will, one is not sure if one reallly know what that kuen kuit means.

Guess is cheap, speculation is also cheap, but what is the original face of Silence? that is damm expensive.

[Hardwork108]

Probably a good solid 3 years of training.
:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

"Learning and training in WCK is like any TCMA, it has two parts.

The first part is the curriculum. The curriculum of WCK is the forms, the drills (lopsao, chi sao, san sao, etc.), the kuit, etc.

The second part is application - learning and developing your ability to use those things from the curriculum.

No one can teach you the second part. You can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself, by fighting with your WCK and trying to make it work. You learn to box by boxing, you learn to grapple by grappling; no one can give it to you. You get better by training (sparring)." (Niehoff)


***PARTICULARLY want to expand upon my calling the statement "No one can teach you the second part...you can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself" - A HALF TRUTH.

This idea only covers half of what it takes to apply a curriculum.

It's been my experience, not only in martial arts, but by watching baseball my whole life (and playing a lot of it when I was a kid/teenager...hockey the same thing...ditto football...

that there's always a BACK-AND-FORTH between getting instruction - and doing it - getting more instruction - and doing it.

This process is absolutely essential if one wants to avoid mediocrity.

Although the amount of actual time spent learning/drilling gets smaller-and-smaller as time goes on - in relation to the "doing", nevertheless, it never really ends completely.

Baseball players, for example, always travel with batting coaches, pitching coaches, etc. - EVEN IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES. Position players get batting practice everyday, and often consult other players (and former players) - and of course coaches and managers ABOUT NEW WAYS OF APPROACHING THE PLATE, OF HITTING THE FASTBALL, HANDLING THE CURVE, THE SLIDER, THE SPLIT FINGER FASTBALL, ETC.

And oftentimes that consultation includes hours of drilling right in front of the coach. Sometimes it's even the coach who is pitching to the hitters during batting practice - precisely because he's trying to TEACH them something NEW.

Or to remind them of something they may have forgotten. Or to teach them a better way of doing something they learned in the past.

The same with fielding their position, and the same with pitchers literally "going back to school" by consulting coaches and other pitchers about how to throw a pitch they've NEVER LEARNED BEFORE, or a new way of throwing pitches they did learn years ago.

Does this process sound familiar? It should.

Where do you see the internal training in your "two parts"?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hardwork,

Thanks for bringing this subject to the forefront, because I think that not enough time is spent both learning about these things and doing them.

For me, internal training is about proper breathing technique, mental focus, interior visualization, learning how to relax your muscles and your energy flow until the last second, and, quite frankly, how to actually move your "chi" (qi) (internal energy)...in such a way that you completely maximize your functional power with each move you make.

And deposit all of that power right to a specific place. In other words, highly concentrated power.

And btw, you can see this in Bruce Lee's movies, one of the reasons why I personally always defend him against his detractors. Because I think he really got it. He understood (and you can see it unfold before your eyes) exactly how to relax and literally explode his force at will - particularly at "impact" - and do it within a fraction of a second. Watching him strike or kick was like watching someone use a whip with complete mastery.

And as far as wing chun goes, it all begins with SLT, imo; and in particular, the first section of the form. Which is one of the reasons why it is imperative to do this section slowly - but with great intent.

I also believe that doing all of the form (SLT) on a very regular basis is paramount to true wing chun training and mastery. I was taught this by both my instructors, William Cheung and Moy Yat, and I believe that they were both absolutely correct. This is not simply taking their word for it because they are wing chun "authorities" (which they are/were)...but because after doing the form literally thousands of times by now, I see/feel what they were talking about, and have seen it (and felt it) for some time now.

SLT is like what the guitarist, Eric Clapton used to say about "the blues": He used to say that "rock guitarists/musicians need to constantly return to it (blues progressions and riffs) in order to recharge their batteries." (And I have come to feel the same way about chi sao - although chi sao training can easily be overdone and overemphasized if you're not careful).

Now, in answer to your question specifically, I see "internal" training, such as what is part of what is being accomplished with the training of the first section of SLT, as being something that you learn as part of the curriculum starting right at day one - and then you must "work" with it long after you may have stoped training with an instructor.

But REALLY learn the whole form. Carefully and thoroughly. Know the meaning(s) of every move, and of each of the three sections. And then experiment with it. Make it your own. Be able to do it - and even improvise on it - in your sleep.

And then there is actual chi kung breathing techniques and exercises, which not every wing chun system has (although I've learned a significant amount of this from William Cheung) - and I include a few minutes of this in every class I teach.

Again, these things help mental focus, foster proper breathing (expecially necessary when under stress, such as in sparring and needless to say, fighting)...and helps to develop the ability to relax not only your muscles and your energy flow until impact - but to maximize your power generation potential.

[grasshopper 2.0]

You have to understand that the modern education systems and the modern scientific community have the ability to rationalize and teach every known concept and idea. Even the most complex of these ideas and concepts, even the ones that build off of an entire science, to understand, do not take 30 years to learn.

Yes, it could take you personally a lifetime to truly, in the depths of your "soul" or whatever, grasp every aspect of a certain concept - But at the same time, if those same people just opened up to modern methods they could speed along that process considerably.

Haha - I'm sure science has tried over the last hundreds of years to understand and explain women. Still haven't figured that one out yet......

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork,

Thanks for bringing this subject to the forefront, because I think that not enough time is spent both learning about these things and doing them.

For me, internal training is about proper breathing technique, mental focus, interior visualization, learning how to relax your muscles and your energy flow until the last second, and, quite frankly, how to actually move your "chi" (qi) (internal energy)...in such a way that you completely maximize your functional power with each move you make.

And deposit all of that power right to a specific place. In other words, highly concentrated power.

And btw, you can see this in Bruce Lee's movies, one of the reasons why I personally always defend him against his detractors. Because I think he really got it. He understood (and you can see it unfold before your eyes) exactly how to relax and literally explode his force at will - particularly at "impact" - and do it within a fraction of a second. Watching him strike or kick was like watching someone use a whip with complete mastery.

And as far as wing chun goes, it all begins with SLT, imo; and in particular, the first section of the form. Which is one of the reasons why it is imperative to do this section slowly - but with great intent.

I also believe that doing all of the form (SLT) on a very regular basis is paramount to true wing chun training and mastery. I was taught this by both my instructors, William Cheung and Moy Yat, and I believe that they were both absolutely correct. This is not simply taking their word for it because they are wing chun "authorities" (which they are/were)...but because after doing the form literally thousands of times by now, I see/feel what they were talking about, and have seen it (and felt it) for some time now.

SLT is like what the guitarist, Eric Clapton used to say about "the blues": He used to say that "rock guitarists/musicians need to constantly return to it (blues progressions and riffs) in order to recharge their batteries." (And I have come to feel the same way about chi sao - although chi sao training can easily be overdone and overemphasized if you're not careful).

Now, in answer to your question specifically, I see "internal" training, such as what is part of what is being accomplished with the training of the first section of SLT, as being something that you learn as part of the curriculum starting right at day one - and then you must "work" with it long after you may have stoped training with an instructor.

But REALLY learn the whole form. Carefully and thoroughly. Know the meaning(s) of every move, and of each of the three sections. And then experiment with it. Make it your own. Be able to do it - and even improvise on it - in your sleep.

And then there is actual chi kung breathing techniques and exercises, which not every wing chun system has (although I've learned a significant amount of this from William Cheung) - and I include a few minutes of this in every class I teach.

Again, these things help mental focus, foster proper breathing (expecially necessary when under stress, such as in sparring and needless to say, fighting)...and helps to develop the ability to relax not only your muscles and your energy flow until impact - but to maximize your power generation potential.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. It makes things clearer now. I too practice "supplementary" chi kung exercises that help develop the internal aspects of Wing Chun.:)

[t_niehoff]

"As far as the TWC entry technique -- it's silly." (Niehoff)


***AGAIN, you wouldn't know that. Who have you sparred competitively that used that technique? No one? So what you say is "silly" has to be taken with a grain of salt.

A big one.

Because the very same standards of "testing" things that you like to apply to everyone else - apply to you also.

Can you show us something wherein you demonstrate what's good wing chun - and what isn't?

Oh, you refuse to do that?

Then your opinions have to be taken with a GIANT grain of salt.

Victor, it isn't a matter of me demonstrating what is "good" wing chun. That perspective is part of the problem. Even if you were to see "good" wing chun, that is only THAT individual's way -- you cannot duplicate it. You have to find your own way through doing the right kind of work. Someone else's accomplishments can't and won't help you. There is no objectively "right"or "best"way of doing WCK. There is only what works for you. BUT, there is a lot of stuff that is just plain silly and can't possibly work for anyone. It's the same for boxing or wrestling or WCK.

It comes down to learning the fundamentals and then making them work for YOU.

If YOU are going down to the local muay thai gyms and MMA gyms (where there are competent fighters) and consistently making your entry technique work, then no one, including me, can say that it doesn't work. But you're not doing that. And you don't know anyone who is.

You see, this is the same as the guys who believe their WCK works on the ground. They haven't come to that conclusion based on their sparring at their local BJJ school. Their view is based on their lack of experience. No one who puts in the work (of sparring with competent people) is going to make such a claim.

When I hear people talking about certain things, like finger strikes, pressure point strikes, the TWC entry technique, WCK groundfighting, and other things, I have serious reservations about how grounded in the reality of the fight that person is.

[t_niehoff]

"Learning and training in WCK is like any TCMA, it has two parts.

The first part is the curriculum. The curriculum of WCK is the forms, the drills (lopsao, chi sao, san sao, etc.), the kuit, etc.

The second part is application - learning and developing your ability to use those things from the curriculum.

No one can teach you the second part. You can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself, by fighting with your WCK and trying to make it work. You learn to box by boxing, you learn to grapple by grappling; no one can give it to you. You get better by training (sparring)." (Niehoff)


***PARTICULARLY want to expand upon my calling the statement "No one can teach you the second part...you can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself" - A HALF TRUTH.

This idea only covers half of what it takes to apply a curriculum.

It's been my experience, not only in martial arts, but by watching baseball my whole life - and playing a lot of it when I was a kid/teenager...hockey the same thing...ditto football...

that there's always a BACK-AND-FORTH between getting instruction - and doing it - getting more instruction - and doing it.

This process is absolutely essential if one wants to avoid mediocrity.

Although the amount of actual time spent learning/drilling gets smaller-and-smaller as time goes on - in relation to the "doing", nevertheless, it never really ends completely.

Baseball players, for example, always travel with batting coaches, pitching coaches, etc. - EVEN IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES. Position players get batting practice everyday, and often consult other players (and former players) - and of course coaches and managers ABOUT NEW WAYS OF APPROACHING THE PLATE, OF HITTING THE FASTBALL, HANDLING THE CURVE, THE SLIDER, THE SPLIT FINGER FASTBALL, ETC.

And oftentimes that consultation includes hours of drilling right in front of the coach. Sometimes it's even the coach who is pitching to the hitters during batting practice - precisely because he's trying to TEACH them something NEW.

Or to remind them of something they may have forgotten. Or to teach them a better way of doing something they learned in the past.

The same with fielding their position, and the same with pitchers literally "going back to school" by consulting coaches and other pitchers about how to throw a pitch they've NEVER LEARNED BEFORE, or a new way of throwing pitches they did learn years ago.

Does this process sound familiar? It should.

Good coaching is indeed helpful to an athlete. As I indicated in my previous posts, they can help you observe things (by pointing them out) that you may be missing, they can provide suggestions to help you, they can help motivate you, etc. But if you are not DOING THE WORK - and in the case of a fighting method that means quality sparring -- none of that will matter. You can have the best swimming coach, the best surfing coach, etc. but if you aren't getting in the pool or getting out on your board, you can't progress. Skill in anything comes from actually doing (practicing) the skill itself. So, if a person isn't getting in and sparring with good people, all the coaching in the world won't help them. THAT (the quality sparring) the the primary thing in learning to make your art work (the application of your art).

To be a good coach, a person needs to have a sufficient level of skill to be able to help the trainee. You can't coach someone in something you are not very good at. A poor golfer isn't going to make a good golf coach. And, someone who listens to and follows the "authority" of a poor golfer is only hindering their own development. How does one get good at applying their WCK? By doing loads and loads of quality sparring (hard sparring with good, competent fighters). That's the only way. So if a person hasn't done that work himself, he is not in a position to help (coach) anyone. How many WCK people have put in hundreds of hours of sparring with MMA fighters, with MT fighters, with boxers, etc. using their WCK? Because that is what it takes to develop competence.

One of my WCK friends was told by his sifu (and I'm paraphrasing), "I can teach you the method as I learned it, but it is up to you to learn how to use it." Exactly. Here's a guy who knows and is honest about it. He can teach you the curriiculum but then YOU need to do the work if you want to develop skill at applying it. And, by not trying to teach "application", he did something very rare: he did no harm. Most "application" being taught is pure fantasy, and when you teach someone nonsense like that, it doesn't help them, it hurts them. It makes them worse, not better. And they cling to the nonsense because it comes from some authority.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL!! I love that! I have to teach like that!!! Just punch them in the face and let them figure it out!

Works for boxers !
LOL !

[Hendrik]

So, here is a simple question


what does it take - and how long does it take to learn and master the proper Kiai?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, here is a simple question


what does it take - and how long does it take to learn and master the proper Kiai?

Define "proper"?

[Tom Kagan]

While I am not an authority, it might be helpful if Victor became an authority on the [QUOTE] BBCode tag usage.

[Hendrik]

Define "proper"?

Good question.

I let any one here share what their understanding.

What is proper for you? since you are a Kyokushin and doing Kiai all the time.

Something as simple as this and let see how many years one needs to know what is the proper Kiai and how long it takes to get it right?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor, it isn't a matter of me demonstrating what is 'good' wing chun." (Niehoff)


***OF COURSE it is. You constantly make statements you can't back up. I just picked one: "The TWC entry technique---is silly."

You don't know that, because you've never sparred/fought against someone using the move.

[Ultimatewingchun]

PLEASE READ WHAT'S IN THE YELLOW QUOTE BOX FIRST...



Good coaching is indeed helpful to an athlete...But if you are not DOING THE WORK - and in the case of a fighting method that means quality sparring -- none of that will matter...the quality sparring (is) the primary thing in learning to make your art work (the application of your art). (Niehoff)


***THIS IS TRUE, Terence, but then you go on to say this:


"One of my WCK friends was told by his sifu (and I'm paraphrasing), 'I can teach you the method as I learned it, but it is up to you to learn how to use it.' Exactly. Here's a guy who knows and is honest about it. He can teach you the curriiculum but then YOU need to do the work if you want to develop skill at applying it." (Niehoff)

***BUT the curriculum has to include the applications of what you learn in the forms, chi sao, pak sao drills, lop sao drills, wooden dummy, etc. Otherwise, you're being left almost completely in the dark to try and find the light. Why even bother to learn such an incomplete "curriculum"?

So when you say this:


"And, by not trying to teach 'application', he did something very rare: he did no harm. Most 'application' being taught is pure fantasy, and when you teach someone nonsense like that, it doesn't help them, it hurts them. It makes them worse, not better. And they cling to the nonsense because it comes from some authority."
***YOU completely miss a very big point, you overlook another obvious point, and you make an assumption that does not apply to everybody.

The big point you miss is that APPLICATION is the key to making wing chun work - so it HAS to be part of the curriculum.

You overlook the obvious when you praise those wing chun instructors who don't include APPLICATION as part of the curriculum: THEY DON'T REALLY KNOW THE APPLICATIONS. So they shouldn't be teaching, imo.

And the overblown assumption is your belief that applications taught are pure fantasy. For some people they are quite real.

Using the wing chun punches (and proper body structure and alignment) - as well as strong, fast, and accurate contact reflexes as they are learned and developed in chi sao/kiu sao - using these things to pressure the opponent in order to swim through openings and strike at close range while protecting the centerline is one.

Working in simultaneous (or near simultaneous) blocking and striking as part of your fight is another.
And then there's some very specific scenarios: pak coming from the top or side against straight punches, bong coming from underneath against straight punches, bil against long round punches being thrown at your head or upper body, bil-lop vs. tighter round punches (hooks), garn vs. low round punches, tan against backfisted strikes and some straight punches, pak/jut against a mid level or low straight punch, etc.

And yes, another example is the TWC entry technique (from the parallel matched leads position especially) against a good kicker, it can be an effective way to go from long range, jam him up, and end by getting to close range in order to strike.

But it's going to take some competent instruction in order to get these kinds of things going - AS APPLICATION.

And then the rest is mainly up to you. Go use it while sparring/fighting.

[AdrianK]

Haha - I'm sure science has tried over the last hundreds of years to understand and explain women. Still haven't figured that one out yet......

Sure they can. Where do you think think the word "Insanity" came from? :D

[chusauli]

Sure they can. Where do you think think the word "Insanity" came from? :D

The last words he types, when he suddenly turns around and sees his spouse with a rolling pin in her hands...:eek:

LOL!

[JPinAZ]

Good question.

I let any one here share what their understanding.

What is proper for you? since you are a Kyokushin and doing Kiai all the time.

Something as simple as this and let see how many years one needs to know what is the proper Kiai and how long it takes to get it right?

Topic:

What does it take - and how long does it take...

to learn wing chun?

just a reminder..

[JPinAZ]

Speaking of which,

Vitor, can you clarify the original question a bit (unless I missed it)?
When you say 'learn' WC, to what extent/depth are you speaking?
The curriculum only (forms and drills)?
The concepts/principals?
- In the mind?
- represented in the body?
Usage of the system in application only?
Being able to teach and pass it on?

These variables can greatly change the answer to the question!

Jonathan

[Ultimatewingchun]

All the way up to (and including) usage in application; ie.- learn the basic building blocks, and learn and be able to use wing chun in fighting/sparring application.

Not really talking about weapons at the moment, or the ability to actually teach the system.

1) How much time should this take?

2) What exactly will it take to do this (ie.- exactly what parts of the system will have to be covered, how do you go about covering these things, and who should be present?)

[AdrianK]

The last words he types, when he suddenly turns around and sees his spouse with a rolling pin in her hands...:eek:

LOL!

LOL. Yep. Thankfully my Tan Sao deflected :D

[Hendrik]

Topic:

What does it take - and how long does it take...

to learn wing chun?

just a reminder..


Wing Chun or TCMA Kiai too.

how do you do it?

[t_niehoff]

"Victor, it isn't a matter of me demonstrating what is 'good' wing chun." (Niehoff)

***OF COURSE it is. You constantly make statements you can't back up. I just picked one: "The TWC entry technique---is silly."

You don't know that, because you've never sparred/fought against someone using the move.

You want someone to show you because you have an authoritative mind -- you want to believe there is some "right" way (which, btw, you have a preconception about) and anything you see you will compare to that image that you have in your mind -- so anything you see that doesn't fit your image of "good" WCK you will dismiss. Nothing you see will ever change your mind. Nothing. The only thing that can possibly change your mind is your own experience -- you need to get out and face competent fighters and see if what you are doing will work. That's the only way you can learn. The only way.

Moreover, it doesn't matter how good or bad I am -- that has no impact on what YOU are doing or not doing or what you can do or not do.

Go to a muay thai gym or a MMA gym and try your entry technique. See what happens. Learn from that experience.

The important question is: will you give yourself that opportunity to learn? And if you won't, then ask yourself why you won't. What prevents you from doing that?

The only thing that limits our growth is ourselves. By giving ourselves over to authority, by giving ourselves over to our ego, by giving ourselves over to fear, etc. we stop ourselves from doing the things that will allow ourselves to grow. We'll grow naturally if we DO the right things. If you won't do those things, you can't grow.

[sihingmike]

This form from what I have read and from my Sifu says is Mastered in 5 Years. I practice every day my Shil Lim Tao. This is the bases for the other 2 forms. Never forget the basics.

[t_niehoff]

[
***YOU completely miss a very big point, you overlook another obvious point, and you make an assumption that does not apply to everybody.

The big point you miss is that APPLICATION is the key to making wing chun work - so it HAS to be part of the curriculum.


Application isn't the key to making WCK work -- application is WCK working. Application is fighting, it is applying your WCK in fighting.

What you call "application" are examples of things you believe people can or should do when fighting.

When you learn to box, you first learn the skills of boxing (the punches, evasions, movement, defenses, etc.). Then you need to learn to put all those things together into your own game. Any decent boxer can teach you their former. The latter you only learnby and through boxing, by getting in the ring and sparring with good people.



You overlook the obvious when you praise those wing chun instructors who don't include APPLICATION as part of the curriculum: THEY DON'T REALLY KNOW THE APPLICATIONS. So they shouldn't be teaching, imo.

And the overblown assumption is your belief that applications taught are pure fantasy. For some people they are quite real.


Everyone and their mother believes that they KNOW how to apply their WCK. But what we never hear is how they and their mother are training with competent fighters, like at a MT gym or MMA gym, and are consistently able to make their WCK work (as they have trained to).



Using the wing chun punches (and proper body structure and alignment) - as well as strong, fast, and accurate contact reflexes as they are learned and developed in chi sao/kiu sao - using these things to pressure the opponent in order to swim through openings and strike at close range while protecting the centerline is one.

Working in simultaneous (or near simultaneous) blocking and striking as part of your fight is another.
And then there's some very specific scenarios: pak coming from the top or side against straight punches, bong coming from underneath against straight punches, bil against long round punches being thrown at your head or upper body, bil-lop vs. tighter round punches (hooks), garn vs. low round punches, tan against backfisted strikes and some straight punches, pak/jut against a mid level or low straight punch, etc.


Those are all lovely theories -- now go try them out at a MMA gym or a MT gym.

You see, I don't care what people can make work against their students or other untrained/poorly trained people or believe should work in fighting. That's like saying this or that works well against poor tennis players or this or that works well against poor grapplers. To tell if what we are doing is fundamentally SOUND, we need to get out an try it against people who are fundamentally sound, against good, competent fighters. And that's because they will have the skills to SHOW you your faults.

You find out if your grappling skills are sound by grappling with good people. It's the same in WCK.



And yes, another example is the TWC entry technique (from the parallel matched leads position especially) against a good kicker, it can be an effective way to go from long range, jam him up, and end by getting to close range in order to strike.

But it's going to take some competent instruction in order to get these kinds of things going - AS APPLICATION.

And then the rest is mainly up to you. Go use it while sparring/fighting.

In my view, when you teach people "applications" that you yourself are not using and can't use against competent fighters, you are not helping your studetns. You are hurting their development. You are leading them astray.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You know, I just don't see any need to respond to Niehoff's last two posts. What I posted previously hasn't been negated - they still stand. The guy just doesn't get it.

[t_niehoff]

You know, I just don't see any need to respond to Niehoff's last two posts. What I posted previously hasn't been negated - they still stand. The guy just doesn't get it.

Victor, you want to believe that YOU know how to make WCK work. You want to believe that YOU are an authority. But my point is that you're not making it work against good, competent people. And you never have. So any of your beliefs are simply theory, ideas of how WCK should work that you've never tested against decently skilled people.

And you only develop your WCK application by practicing (sparring) against good people -- again, something you don't do. That being the case, how can you help others develop that ability? If you aren't a particularly good swimmer or a particularly good grappler, how can you tell others how they should do it?

[MysteriousPower]

I can respect Victor because he atleast has some ideas of his own.

Tienoff,
You are plagurizing Robert Chu's words as your own. He came to his own philosophy which makes him an authority. The fact that you are stealing his words and making them the rules that wing chun training should be judged means you consider him THE authority. I think it's a bit unfair to try and fit everyone into your(Robert's) narrow view.

I've known people who have survived and won more street fights than all this forum combined. This was before MMA was around. To say that they are fakes or aren't talented because they didn't fight skilled mmaers is a little biased. I guess a chef who hasn't had the oppurtunity to cook for royalty is a bad chef? No. And I'm not saying mmaers are royalty in the martial arts. When you cme up with your own philosophy then come back on and preach. Otherwise you are no different than all the other branless "Sifu says" practicioners.

[JPinAZ]

All the way up to (and including) usage in application; ie.- learn the basic building blocks, and learn and be able to use wing chun in fighting/sparring application.

Not really talking about weapons at the moment, or the ability to actually teach the system.

1) How much time should this take?

2) What exactly will it take to do this (ie.- exactly what parts of the system will have to be covered, how do you go about covering these things, and who should be present?)

That's still a pretty broad question, but I'll try :)
(just going to shoot from the hip, nothing 'planned out' in this answer)

I would say you first start with the 'self'. That is, the student learning about his own space and structures. You can have a lot of solo drills and forms for this. SNT being one. SLT drilling. Foot work drilling, bai jong facing and set-up. Jong sau training. Jong sau with stepping, etc. One building on the other.
Then can refine as skill in creases with triangular theory, References points, Tien Yan Dei connection, etc.

Mix in with that some starting, fixed partner drilling. Same types of things as above. Teach the student how to engage an opponent on center line first. How to survivie that engagement. Then progress into more live training. Then what to do after engagement - engage, neutralize, maintain.
This is just the kiu sau training in the system I train. And, there's a LOT of info there.

Add sparring.
Repeat.

But really, as soon as they start getting the basics, you start layering in more knowledge of concepts and principals. This is the most important part IMO! CL theory, Triangluar theory, gate theory, box theory (in the system I train), Heaven/Human/Earth, overall Chi Sau (kiu sau, Saam Sing Jong chi sau, some chi kiu), proper facing - a bit of duie ying/jeui jing... the list goes on. This should take a quite a bit of time, a couple years minumum - and that's just "SNT level" training!
I use quotes because I don't see WCK training as being linear in the sense of SNT then CK then BJ. It's really about a layering of the concepts and ideas backed with proper hands-on skill building and pressure testing.

To truely answer the questions, I'd have to know to what levels of head and body knowledge and development one is looking for?
But there should be some form of instructor present for most of this. The solo drills in the begining to make sure they get the ideas, along with frequesnt quality checks to keep them on the right path. The same for the partner drilling and sparring.
It's senseless for someone to say "here's how you do it, see you in a month!" without the continued reinforcement of mechanics, concepts, etc. Or, "here's a concept, no pad up, bang into each other until you figure it out". That's a long long road. Sure they need the peer partnering and skill challenges to build the karma, and there are a lot of things they can do on their own as well, but an instructor is essential to learning throughout the process!

Not sure if I answered too much or too little, just kinda rambled :)

Jonathan

[JPinAZ]

More on that..

What I gave is a brief overview for a 'system' approach to teaching WCK.
Anther way could be San Sau approach.This is more a free-form drilling of the concepts into the body. Can start this from any subject, and just work the techniques and reactions into the student. This will tend to give quicker results in terms of body karma and fighting skill, but the head knowledge isn't as reinforced. A result will be, the student will have less ability as a teacher to pass on the 'system' down the road if they so choose. They will only be able to pass on their own application or 'style' of the system.

so, to answer the OP question, one would have to know the level of outcome expected form the student as well. This was why I asked my questions first before joining the discussion.

[Sihing73]

I've known people who have survived and won more street fights than all this forum combined. This was before MMA was around. To say that they are fakes or aren't talented because they didn't fight skilled mmaers is a little biased. I guess a chef who hasn't had the oppurtunity to cook for royalty is a bad chef? No. And I'm not saying mmaers are royalty in the martial arts. When you cme up with your own philosophy then come back on and preach. Otherwise you are no different than all the other branless "Sifu says" practicioners.

Hello,

An interesting point as some seem to feel that if you do not train in THEIR venue then somehow experience is not relevant. :rolleyes:

For example: I have worked in Law Enforcement both as a Police officer in the projects of Philly as well as a PA State Trooper. While I did not try to go toe to toe with anyone, for example one time someone pulled a knife on me opted to pull my gun rather than see if I could beat them.......guess what I won :). Still there were times when someone needed to be physically restrained during an arrest, for some reason some people did not want to be arrested, go figure. However to some on this forum I have no real experience and if I somehow got injured in any way it shows I do not know what I was doing........not sure why dealing with someone with a weapon trying to harm me and my still being here would show I do not know what I am doing or am living in a fantasy land but hey maybe the're right, perhaps going to a MMA gym and playing by the rules would be more realistic :p. As a side note I also worked as a Correctional Officer and while most attacks were inmate on inmate the guards did get in the middle at times. Also, if anyone remembers the Camp Hill riots guess who came in to keep order, the PA State Police. But again, this is not a MMA gym so for some, my experience only shows my fantasy approach to training. Sorry, no video is available, although there may be some archival news footage and if you look closely I may be in there somehwere :eek:

Please do not think I am putting anyone down, if you have the time, money and inclination to train with MMA stylists or Boxers then by all means do so, and I believe you will learn and benefit from such exposure. Just don't make a habit of knocking everyone who does not do it your way and realize that some can fight who never had a day of training in their lives.

We all need to be open to new ideas and ways of training.........but none of us should be so short sighted as to believe that our way is the only way.

FWIW, I have actually been enjoying some of T's posts of late. I do believe that in some of the threads he is making a good presentation of valid points as are others.

Whether or not we agree is not always important.............our ability to interact and share ideas and openess to learn from one another is important.

[t_niehoff]

I can respect Victor because he atleast has some ideas of his own.

Tienoff,
You are plagurizing Robert Chu's words as your own. He came to his own philosophy which makes him an authority. The fact that you are stealing his words and making them the rules that wing chun training should be judged means you consider him THE authority. I think it's a bit unfair to try and fit everyone into your(Robert's) narrow view.


Anonymous poster, I am not "plagurizing" anyone's words. Nor am I merely repeating Robert's ideas; these are my own views. And if you bothered reading what I wrote (if you did, you might get my name right too), I am not claiming to be an authority. Just the opposite. I am saying NO ONE IS AN AUTHORITY. Can you understand that? NO ONE. That includes me.

What makes good training doesn't come from Robert or come from Thornton or Steve Morris or anyone -- it comes by looking at results and seeing what consistently produces optimal results. The eivdence tells us what works and what doesn't. What produces optimal results is simply no longer even in question; the evidence is in and that ship has sailed. This is not some"narrow view", it is what the evidence has proved to be true. You might not like it but that is the way it is. You can either embrace it or hide your head in the sand.



I've known people who have survived and won more street fights than all this forum combined. This was before MMA was around. To say that they are fakes or aren't talented because they didn't fight skilled mmaers is a little biased. I guess a chef who hasn't had the oppurtunity to cook for royalty is a bad chef? No. And I'm not saying mmaers are royalty in the martial arts. When you cme up with your own philosophy then come back on and preach. Otherwise you are no different than all the other branless "Sifu says" practicioners.

If you grasp (1) that fighting skill is like any other physical skill and (2) that we develop any physical skill only by actually practicing using that skill, then you will see why we only can develop our fighting skill by and through fighting (realistic training) . And, that better skills come from quality practice (the better our opponents). This is true in all the combative arts.

So all it takes to know whether or someone can possibly have good skills is to see whether or not they've done that work. If they haven't done that work, they can't possibly have significant (higher) levels of skill. It's simply impossible. To be a very good grappler demands you spend hundreds, perhaps thousands, of hours sparring with good people. To be a very good boxer demands you spend hundreds of hours sparring with good people. It's the same for WCK.

The simple fact is that if someone doesn't do that, it doesn't matter what else they do, they can't develop significant levels of skill. You may not like to hear that but it is the plain, simple truth.

We've all heard these sorts of claims before. Everyone is a master behind closed doors. Trouble is when these same streetfighters ever really show what they can do, it's never very much. You've known people who won some street fights. So have I. BFD. So what? Streetfights prove nothing.

[Ultimatewingchun]

So if there are no authorities, then no one could ever "really" be ahead of Niehoff. (In his mind).

I get it!

Oh, and yeah...streetfights mean nothing!

Even if we're talking about altercations with hardened criminals, many of whom have been fighting their whole lives.

Oh, yeah...I get that too.

There are NO AUTHORITIES, except those self appointed wing chun forum "authorities" who try to tell us post-after-post....month-after-month...year-after-year...

that if we don't do exactly the kinds of training he claims to be doing, ie.- working directly with mma guys constantly...

then we just don't get it. And our wing chun sucks.

RIGHT! I get it.

THE GUY IS DELUSIONAL.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have great respect for mma fighters, for boxers, wrestlers, jiu jitsu guys, Muay Thai fighters, etc.

And by now I'm completely sold on the idea of crosstraining, which started to influence me - my thinking anyway - since the days when I first started paying attention to Bruce Lee's approach to fighting (way back in the mid-1970's).

But to think that there's no way to make your wing chun work - even if you are crosstraining,
(or even if you're not) - unless of course it's the very narrow view of wing chun that one man in particular has...

is truly laughable.

And his kind of bombastic, bullying rhetoric just might serve to give crosstraining/mma a bad name around here.

I hope not.

After all, the most famous crosstrainer of all started out in Hong Kong as a student of Yip Man! ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

...and with no foundation in reality.

I'm now addressing the following remarks, by guess who...?! :D

"And you only develop your WCK application by practicing (sparring) against good people -- again, something you don't do. That being the case, how can you help others develop that ability?"

***WELL, in today's 3 hour class, for example, two of my longtime students who don't get to make it to class much anymore - due to geograghy - (they both no longer live in NYC)...showed up.

One stands about 6'1" and the other about 6'2". (I stand 5'10"). And they both outweigh me by about 15-20 lbs. And they are both literally (ie.- exactly) 20 years younger than me.

And they both had kickboxing/karate skills before they ever met me. One of these guys started with me in 1993, and the other in 1995.

Do the math.

So by now, they both have had quite a bit of training in wing chun also. And they both have been doing sparring for a whole lot of years now. Mixing long and mid range kickboxing, karate, and wing chun, etc.

And so, in addition to landing some things for them to think about, I also ate a bunch of punches in heavy contact sparring today. And some kicks too. And a couple of knee shots. And my cardio endurance disappeared long before theirs' did. (I was feeling some leather and footwear at that point, alright. LOL). :cool:

But I also got to show them (and explain) some things that they forgot, some new ways of looking at (and doing) things I taught them in the past, and some stuff they hadn't seen enough of, ie.- some clinch stuff, some standup wrestling, some takedown material, and some wrestling/grappling/striking on the ground.

WE ALL LEARNED SOME THINGS TODAY, including me.

And a certain so-and-so's delusions are really getting old.

[Knifefighter]

- some clinch stuff, some standup wrestling, some takedown material, and some wrestling/grappling/striking on the ground.

LOL @ someone selling himself as being able to teach grappling when he has had zero grappling instruction himself... and talking about it on a thread that he started about how much time one should put in to master a system.

[Knifefighter]

But to think that there's no way to make your wing chun work - even if you are crosstraining, .

Can the occasional person make WC work? Sure, but he does it in spite of, not because of the majority of the WC training (most of which is a waste of time, if not counterproductive) he has done. It also helps if he is naturally athletic and bigger than any opponent he faces.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Want to respond to some points made by JP...

"I don't see WCK training as being linear in the sense of SNT then CK then BJ. It's really about a layering of the concepts and ideas backed with proper hands-on skill building and pressure testing." (JP)

***I AGREE. No point in doing CK and then BJ before doing lots of hands on with the more basic SNT material first.

..................................................


"But there should be some form of instructor present for most of this. The solo drills in the begining to make sure they get the ideas, along with frequent quality checks to keep them on the right path. The same for the partner drilling and sparring. It's senseless for someone to say 'here's how you do it, see you in a month!' without the continued reinforcement of mechanics, concepts, etc. Or, 'here's a concept, go pad up, bang into each other until you figure it out.' That's a long long road." (JP)

***DEFINITELY. I find it mind boggling that some people don't get that. Every martial art is taught like this; it's just a matter of "how much" instruction in-between "go figure it out" sparring/rolling sessions. A question of "how much" - not a question of "should application be taught at all?"

........................................

"Another way could be San Sau approach.This is more a free-form drilling of the concepts into the body. Can start this from any subject, and just work the techniques and reactions into the student. This will tend to give quicker results in terms of body karma and fighting skill, but the head knowledge isn't as reinforced. A result will be, the student will have less ability as a teacher to pass on the 'system' down the road if they so choose. They will only be able to pass on their own application or 'style' of the system." (JP)

***TRUE, but not necessarily a bad thing, especially if the guy can really fight! :)

[MysteriousPower]

sihing97,
I agree with you. Your experience in law enforcement is extremely valuable. While it may not be valuable in the ring it did much for your confidence in handling EVERYDAY life situations. Don't discount it by stating that you were never an "a$$ beater". That was a paraphrase of what you wrote. Soldiers, cops, bouncers, people who lift heavy objects on a daily basis(UPS worker) are the people I'd feel safe with in a fight. Mentally speaking soldiers, cops, and bouncers have to deal with a lot of bull and are therefore more prepared than those who aren't in daily confrontations verbal and physical. Physically speaking the guy lifting the heavy boxes knows how to use his body. He may not be able to do an inch punch but if he got a hold of someone they'd be in trouble.

tienoff(or however you spell your name),
Your words are from Robert Chu. You may think they are your ideas but I think they were put in your head. You may believe them but I doubt you came up with your philosophy. I find it hysterical when people say that fighting with an untrained person(street criminal) isn't as hard as fighting a trained mma fighter. Really? Really? Let's pretend it's below zero outside in the middle of winter and someone or more than one person tries to mug you. The temperature itself may cause you to get killed because of your impaired reactions and probably huge winter coat. I'd rather fight with an mma person in a ring(with heat) than someone trying to mug me in winter for example. The myth of street fighting is that it happens a lot but I think in truth it doesn't happen that often in modern life. The street fighters I've known had their fights when gang fights and muggings happened daily. They had to face people on drugs, multiple opponents, much bigger guys trying to beat their much smaller behinds into death. No weight classes. I'm not making the claim that these fights were real and mma sport fights are fake. I'm saying that modern mma people haven't had many real street fights and that their experience is biased. They've only mostly done competition and controlled sparring which I think is important in modern day with the lack of real fights breaking out. Sparring with top mma people, as you want us to do, will get you skilled against mma people. Picking up a stick to beat someone who is trying to stab you with a knife will get you better at weapons defense. Everything has it's place but don't say that the only way to get good is to spar with mma people.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Great post, Mysterious!

[Phil Redmond]

MysteriousPower, you said what most people with some common sense should understand. Too many people base fighting skill on what MMA, kickboxers, boxers, etc. In the street there are many equalizers. I give people who fight in a ring, cage, on a Lei Tai platform or whatever props. I've fought full contact and won but I've had much worse street fights. One of the famous Gracies had a street fight and wrecked his knee when he went for a takedown. There are rules and a referee to stop a fight in an MMA event. No fighter is invincible in the street.

[Liddel]

I think you guys should check out (if you havent come across it before) the urijah (sp?) Faber incident in bali....

He got into a fight with a couple of guys and was holding his own untill more dudes hit the scene.

But lets be clear, id rate a skilled sparring MA's in the street or comp over one that doesnt spar, full stop.

VT or drunkin boxing style is irrelevant - experience is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg7Kc8So

[Lee Chiang Po]

The reason anyone studies a MA is to give themselves some sort of advantage. The idea that someone that is not MA trained can not be dangerous is not accurate. When I was a young man I had a friend that was called Lucky. It really didn't fit him though. Lucky was a seriously dangerous man, but had never taken a lesson in a MA in his entire life. He did not realize his fighting ability until we were in our mid teens. Lucky would spar fighters at a local boxing gym and at the local boys club. He just let them pound away and take whatever they had with ease, but one day he was told to put effort into trying to defeat the guy. He liked to have beaten him to death. Lucky had a stance that was square with a right foot forward, both hands directly in front of him with his elbows tucked in. He did not throw a punch from the shoulder or swing it in an arc, but would just chop downward with his fist and strike with the second knuckles of the fingers. He kept his elbow in a fixed position and fired his strikes from that. He could hit faster than anyone I have ever seen. He cut his opponents up really bad, but did not have real knockout power. He kicked with his heels in a straight forward manner. If one did not know better he might mistake his style for wierd WC. No one ever beat him, ever. Lucky was mean, and he got to killing people and going to the pen over it. He killed a bunch of people over the years and eventually got killed himself. His own brother shot him to death out of absolute fear of him.
I tell this story because there are lots of people just like him out there everywhere. Your MA training might give you some advantage and it might not. It can give you tools to fight such a person, but you have to give forth great effort to make it work. It will by no means make you superman.
A good martial artist can make use of surprise attack, or even take advantage of the opening attack from an opponent, but if you should square off and give him notice of your intentions, a fight is going to ensue. It will change everything. you will lose your advantage. From that point on your skills have to be sharp, and you have no garantees that you will come out unscathed.

[Knifefighter]

I'm saying that modern mma people haven't had many real street fights and that their experience is biased.

LOL @ thinking that most MMA guys haven't had many street fights. The guys who haven't had many street fights are usually the fantasy kung fu guys (although they claim otherwise).
And more LOL@ thinking just because someone is in law enforcement they have a clue about how to fight.

[Knifefighter]

One of the famous Gracies had a street fight and wrecked his knee when he went for a takedown.

Really? Who was that?

[Phil Redmond]

Really? Who was that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL3s41Sbubo
btw, some people wanted to see your fight highlights. Do you mind if people see them?

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL3s41Sbubo
btw, some people wanted to see your fight highlights. Do you mind if people see them?

Sure... tell me which guys want to see them. Then, they can post clips of themselves going full-contact against resisting opponents. After that, I'd be fine with it. Until then, I wouldn't be fine with it.

[Phil Redmond]

Sure... tell me which guys want to see them. Then, they can post clips of themselves going full-contact against resisting opponents. After that, I'd be fine with it. Until then, I wouldn't be fine with it.
Dale, one of the guys was Graychuan. There was some good stuff in those highlights but with respect I'll keep the clip to myself. I'd hope you'd do the same for me.
Phil

[t_niehoff]

tienoff(or however you spell your name),
Your words are from Robert Chu. You may think they are your ideas but I think they were put in your head. You may believe them but I doubt you came up with your philosophy.


You still haven't gotten my name correctly.

These are my views. Robert and I don't agree on some of these things. I really don't care what you "doubt".



I find it hysterical when people say that fighting with an untrained person(street criminal) isn't as hard as fighting a trained mma fighter. Really? Really? Let's pretend . . .


That's your whole PROBLEM -- "let's pretend." It's fantasy for you; you are imagining things, speculating from ignoranace how you think things should be.

After you go spend some time fighitng with MMA fighters or MT fighters, in other words, when you not longer needto PRETEND, you'll come to see what I am telling you is true.



it's below zero outside in the middle of winter and someone or more than one person tries to mug you. The temperature itself may cause you to get killed because of your impaired reactions and probably huge winter coat. I'd rather fight with an mma person in a ring(with heat) than someone trying to mug me in winter for example. The myth of street fighting is that it happens a lot but I think in truth it doesn't happen that often in modern life. The street fighters I've known had their fights when gang fights and muggings happened daily. They had to face people on drugs, multiple opponents, much bigger guys trying to beat their much smaller behinds into death. No weight classes. I'm not making the claim that these fights were real and mma sport fights are fake. I'm saying that modern mma people haven't had many real street fights and that their experience is biased. They've only mostly done competition and controlled sparring which I think is important in modern day with the lack of real fights breaking out.


That's a lovely fantasy you have. The only things you did say that was correct was "the myth of streetfighting." That's what it is -- a myth. Sure people fight on the street -- I've fought on the street. So have lots of MMA fighters. Fighting is fighting. The skills you need to fight don't change based on the venue. But the development of those skills comes from practice (fighting), and a person gets better by practicing against better and better people. Fighting in a gym or on the street with poorly skilled or unskilled people won't significantly develop your skill.



Sparring with top mma people, as you want us to do, will get you skilled against mma people. Picking up a stick to beat someone who is trying to stab you with a knife will get you better at weapons defense. Everything has it's place but don't say that the only way to get good is to spar with mma people.

I am saying that the only way to develop any physical skill is by actually doing (practicing) that skill. You get better at fighting by fighting. You don't get better at it by not fighting. The more quality fighting you do, the better you get. The quality comes from the level of the opposition. You can fight 10 year olds or untrained people your whole life and you never will get better. Competently skilled people force you to fight competently. No one ever became a good grappler or a bood boxer without doing loads of quality sparring. It's the same with WCK.

Your skill level will depend on the amount (quantity) of quality sparring you do. This is just common sense -- the more you practice something, the better you get. The less you practice, the less you grow. A person can't put in hundreds or even thousands of hours "streetfighting". But they can, and do, put in those hours in quality sparring.

Leaving aside fantasy scenarios for a second, ask yourself who puts in that work -- who trains like a fighter and puts in hundreds of hours of quality sparring? Because the only people who can develop good skill are those people.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The guy will never get it. Because he obviously has a vested ego interest in making sure that he never gets it. (He's gotta be right). And a vested interest in making sure that we never get to see him doing ANYTHING to back up his never-ending rhetoric.

In short, he's a waste of time.

[t_niehoff]

So if there are no authorities, then no one could ever "really" be ahead of Niehoff. (In his mind).

I get it!


Victor, you want there to be authorities in WCK because you want to be an authority yourself. You want to be able to tell people to do this or that because you -- the authority -- say so. I am saying that I am not an authority, that I don't want to be one, and that there are none.

I am saying that the fight itself is the only teacher worth listening to. The fight will show you what is true or not. Authority just gets in the way.



Oh, and yeah...streetfights mean nothing!

Even if we're talking about altercations with hardened criminals, many of whom have been fighting their whole lives.

Oh, yeah...I get that too.


The venue -- street or gym or ring or cage or whatever -- doesn't matter. What matters is FIGHTING SKILL. The skillsyou need don't change because of the venue. Presumably, everyone's objective who trains in a fighting method is dveloping greater fighting skill.

You can't determine what is "good" in fighting by looking at what works against untrained fighters or just in streetfights. You determine that by testing it against good people, skilled people, experienced people. I'm NOT talking about guys that have had even lots of streetfights, I'm talking about guys that have racked up hundreds if not thousands of hours sparring against other, really good fighters. We know, for example, what is sound grappling not because of some "streetfighters" but because of grapplers and MMA fighters.

Streetfighting is a dead end. It is more myth and fantasy than anything else.



There are NO AUTHORITIES, except those self appointed wing chun forum "authorities" who try to tell us post-after-post....month-after-month...year-after-year...

that if we don't do exactly the kinds of training he claims to be doing, ie.- working directly with mma guys constantly...

then we just don't get it. And our wing chun sucks.


As I said, I'm no authority, because there aren't any.

Whether your WCK sucks will depend on how you train and who you train with (your sparring partners). It's the same with grappling. It's the same with any martial art.

If you believe you have good WCK, then go see. What I don't hear are people saying they know they have good WCK because they're consistently handling MMA or MT fighters.

[Knifefighter]

Streetfighting is a dead end. It is more myth and fantasy than anything else..

Not to mention the fact that just about all of the people who claim street/self-defense fighting as the ultimate goal aren't doing anything close to effectively training that aspect of fighting. These guys are surviving on the street in spite of, not because of, their training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Again, this is all a repeat of what took place a little earlier in the thread. (And numerous other threads). And the same as before: there's no need to rebutt Niehoff's latest posts - as he hasn't negated the points I (and other people) made earlier.

They still stand.

[Tom Kagan]

I'd rather fight with an mma person in a ring(with heat) than someone trying to mug me in winter for example.

Out of curiosity, what's stopping you from ring fighting?

[Tom Kagan]

So what are you basing the relative ease of fighting in a sanctioned ring bout as compared to what you describe as the street?

[monji112000]

Out of curiosity, what's stopping you from ring fighting?

Time, money, health. it takes allot to get to a reasonable level. Stepping into the ring is no game, you are putting your life into the other person's hands. I wonder what goes through people's heads that go out there without even a remote amount preparation.


:rolleyes:

[AdrianK]

Honestly, I have no interest currently.

I had a friend once ask us, "Why aren't you religious?". He was asking why were weren't Christians.

I replied, "Cause I don't believe in Christianity and besides that my parents didn't beat it into me like they did you when they forced you to go to church."

He was baffled because he had been with his religion his whole life and couldn't see outside his bubble. He couldn't see that there are tons of other religions and cultures that were never touched by Christianity and was therefore preaching at us about how we should be more religious.

Doing mma competitions isn't in my current world view just like going to church.

Wow, your story doesn't justify your current world view in the least bit.

If you can find me a better medium for which to test your skills, go right ahead and let me know. Street Fighting random idiots doesn't teach you much because there are no standards, anyone can do it. And sparring random folk doesn't do it either.

The reason MMA competition is so important is because it gives the practitioner a place to test their skills against proven competition at their skill level. The Professionals who have gotten to the top have worked their way up the ranks to be allowed to compete at that level.

Yes, there are rules. But those SAME RULES apply in the street if you ever want to survive a street confrontation from a legal standpoint.