See H.F.Y. on Youtube!

[Hudson Li]

Benny Meng quit H.F.Y. and now we can see it on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Kg8BU1D9k. That is part of what we used to train in Fortaleza, Chi Kung, Siu Nin Tau, Four Gates Blocking, Light Sparring.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks for breaking the ice, Hudson.

[li hudson]

Benny Meng quit H.F.Y. and now we can see it on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Kg8BU1D9k. That is part of what we used to train in Fortaleza, Chi Kung, Siu Nin Tau, Four Gates Blocking, Light Sparring.

That's nothing new under the sun. That clip has been available online at Sifu Lambert website months ago.....

What would be something new to see is the Black Crane+Ermei from Hendrik Pikachu....
Does anyone has it?

[Chango]

<hudson>Benny Meng quit H.F.Y. and now we can see it on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Kg8BU1D9k. That is part of what we used to train in Fortaleza, Chi Kung, Siu Nin Tau, Four Gates Blocking, Light Sparring.

You really should not speak/write about things you don't know! I'll just keep it simple.

fact this is a demonstration of more of a General since a nice blend of Ba da juen and some Wing chun! It does have some HFY elements but it's not HFY.

Keep in mind this was done at a Karate tournament! So it doesn't matter what style or family of wing chun as long as it's wing chun! We are all brothers!

Sifu Lambert is a memeber of the VTM he has access to many wing chun systems why would he limit his demo to just one family! when you never know the karate guys might relate to VT, WC, or Weng chun etc.. better?!


(insert soap box here)

This infighting about lineage etc... has done nothing but create a bad name for our art. As a Wing/Weng chun Sifu I cannot contribute to the further distruction of the reputation and unity of this art. I took a oath on atleast two occasions to protect this art. That being said I will not post further on this thread.

Good ole K.F.O forum still the same LOL! ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good God, oaths to protect your art! As if Hudson has done something to "insult" HFY by posting this vid.

Please....

[li hudson]

Good God, oaths to protect your art! As if Hudson has done something to "insult" HFY by posting this vid.

Please....

It's not an insult, but it's like minding someone else's business.

My request about Pikachu's clip is meant to be sarcastic.

Why don't we all just mind our own business. If it's not your clip, do not touch it or post it. If it's not your style/lineage/video/article/picture, don't touch it. it's none of your xxxxxxx business !

UNDERSTAND !!!!????!!@#$@%$#@%$#%##$%$#@#%#$#@$#$@#$#@$#@#$#@ $#@

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . Why don't we all just mind our own business. If it's not your clip, do not touch it or post it. If it's not your style/lineage/video/article/picture, don't touch it. it's none of your xxxxxxx business ! . . .
I beg to differ. I post vids on a public forum myself so I can't expect people not to pass it on or make comments whether negative or positive. The clip in question was posted on a public forum so why should it fall under a different standard?

[li hudson]

If you post your own clip, then it's your business.

I believe the original vid clip that Sifu Lambert posted is meant to be used as promotion.

I am not trying to say don't or do.
But pls have respect toward other style/lineage....At least if you were to 'touch' their belonging, have you got their permission.....

[Chango]

Hey Phil! Great to see you around! your visit to the VTM was one of my favorite of all of the lineages!

I know I was not going to post further but I want to make myself clear.
The mind your own business peace was more on the "Benny Meng quitting HFY"
not about the Vid.

On the video my point is that we are all one wing/weng chun and a demo by my Kung fu brother does not mean that it is H.F.Y ! At the VTM we have experienced first hand alot of kung fu. It would be a waste if we did not demonstrate some of the variety at times. If you have a group who is interested in Wing/Weng Chun, I think it's good idea to give them a few perspectives. That's all.

When I do my Iron Skin/Crotch demo does that mean it's HFY? No!

Victor,

I know you do not take some of the traditions etc... seriously. That's your Kung Fu I can't and won't knock that. I've had information shared with me by people who have asked me to take an oath to never abuse it or the reputation of the lineage.
I'm a "live and let live" " to each thier own" type of person. I work hard to have no hang ups. If my taking a oath and taking it seriously bothers you. I can only say to let go! Cause I don't have a hang up about what you do. Hell I even have to admit that I like the black chucks that you train in. Man I hadn't had a pair of them in years. All jokes aside the are a great all purpose shoe! ;)

[Hudson Li]

First of all, that used to me my lineage until Meng broke up with the H.F.Y. family. And that is obviously H.F.Y. or at least that is what Meng used to call H.F.Y. when teaching us. Furthermore I have been into Yip Man so I can recognize what is and what is not H.F.Y.
It is written on the site of my old school that Meng broke up with the H.F.Y. family because after 10 years of existance H.F.Y. still lacks a curriculum, that there is no ranking tests, that not even the oldest members have seen the complete system yet, the the leaders recruit students for them own behind the back of the regional representatives, that H.F.Y. members are encouraged to get into internet battles, that masters instructors with more than 10 years of practice are not recognized as such.
Seems it is the first official statement of the V.T.M. about the reasons why Benny Meng broke up with G.M. Garrett Gee.
Even so Meng is coming back to Fortaleza in order to give a TOLL FREE workshop about Hung Fa Yi, Chi Sim and Black Flag. I will be there of course!

PS, I edited this post because I wrote behing instead of behind. Also because I wrote ten years of creation instead of 10 years of existance.

[li hudson]

Hudson,

1. Are you still affiliated with Benny or not anymore?
2. Are you "Mr M"?

I am just curious of where is your loyalty toward your Sifu, if you did learn from him before. Once a Sifu, he/she always be your Sifu.

Just my $0.02 opinion.

[Ultimatewingchun]

God, what a shocker: a thread about HFY that becomes something of a flame war on the first page!

Much ado about nothing....the whole business, I mean. :rolleyes:

[Hudson Li]

I was never affiliated to Benny Meng. I only saw him once when he gave a workshop in my home town Fortaleza in the company of G.M. Garrett Gee.
I trained with the H.F.Y. representive in the North of Brazil Alex Magnos that broke up with G.M. Gee and still teaches H.F.Y. now representing Benny Meng.
I will be in Benny Meng's seminar about H.F.Y., Chi Sim and Black Flag because it will be totally free, but that does not mean I am going to be his student.
I did not understand your mention of a magician. What do you mean?
Thank you for telling me that once someone's Sifu, always someone's Sifu, but I believe you should tell that to Benny Meng, who badmouths Moy Yat (I heard that personally), Andreas Hoffman (I heard that personally), Robert Chu (I heard that personally) and now G.M. Gee (I read that on his Brazilian site), that is, all of his past Sifus.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Benny Meng is one of the most reprehensible, "smile-in-your-face-because-he-wants-to-learn-something...and-then-stab-you-in-the-back" opportunists that wing chun has ever seen. And you can also add William Cheungs' name to the list. Meng has played the game concerning William also.

A snake if there ever was one.

[Chango]

LOL! I love to hear different point of views. However once again it's like Micheal Jackson! plenty of haters and rumors! But as I said I'm not into the negative energy! I know personally what Meng Sifu has said over the years to me. So all of the hear say. Well is just that.

He has always taught that we are all bothers in kung fu. That has always been his energy for me for over 21 years. I know for a fact that haters will still hate. I will never get the last word so here's a present!! the last word is yours and so is the energy and Karma that comes with it!

Once again the video does have H.F.Y elements but it's not HFY. You may have a misunderstanding ( could be the teacher could be the student) but hey it's all wing/weng chun the hang up is who ever owns it!! LOL! I know it's not mine. So if that is HFY to you then O.K. man. I'll just say I enjoyed the wing/weng chun that was in it and I could care less where it's from! If my kF brother is reading this. I'm proud of the representation!

Victor,
Ok now I take you seriously! Roflol! get in a fight on the subway much sifu? Thats all I'm going to say!

[Ultimatewingchun]

My fights don't change anything about the history and character of Benny Meng. His highly questionable behavior and claims have been well documented and witnessed by now. This is no secret.

[duende]

my .02

1. Chango's summary of the vid in question is correct. It has some elements of HFY (Jaam Jong/beginner level Sei Mun Da (4-gate defense)) but is not a representation of HFY.

2. The Brazilian website in question is from Alex Magnos. Who was accepted as a student to study HFY while he maintained his pre-existing school. However he never was certified to be a HFY instructor. How could he be, when he only met GM Gee once over a couple of days.

3. The "important news" posted on the website regarding "the split" is obviously Alex's way of trying to legitimize his lack of HFY certification. However, as Chango said prior, it is not the business of the public and best left alone.

4. WTF is up with Hudson Li and Li Hudson?? I suggest you two go fight it out amongst yourselves.

Sounds like a Mexican knife fight is in order if you ask me!

[CFT]

"smile-in-your-face- ... and-then-stab-you-in-the-back"Victor, the Chinese have a saying for this which you may have already heard of before:

"Siu lui chong do" - A knife hidden within the smile/laughter
笑裏藏刀

[Hudson Li]

When Benny Meng and G.M. Garrett Gee gave the workshop in my hometown they said Alex Magnos was authorized to teach H.F.Y. If he lacked H.F.Y. why did the leaders say he could teach? I am feeling deceived now because I spent almost one year training with Alex and now Alex says H.F.Y. was made up by G.M. Garrett Gee and you say G.M. Gee authorized Alex to teach even not knowing H.F.Y.

I wonder what is being taught in Alex school now that he advertises H.F.Y., Chi Sim and Black Flag packed as Shaolin Wing Chun. He learned a lot of H.F.Y through the videos that Meng sent to him about all he trained in California the last 10 years, it is more than 10 videos, so Alex knows much more than the H.F.Y. people of Rio de Janeiro. Benny is here in Fortaleza and is correcting all the H.F.Y. that Alex learned by the videos. Because Alex knows more than anyone else here, he says he is the greatest authority in H.F.Y. in Latin America. Now he is learning Black Flag and Chi Sim the same way and Meng is correcting him personally so he will also be an authority in those styles.

And B.T.W. the free seminar that Benny Meng gave was crowded and he taught another bit of H.F.Y. so I believe there is something we do not know about his brake up uf the rest of the family, because he once said he would be the next Grand Master and he still teaches H.F.Y. even if the H.F.Y. people says he is not a real teacher. 10 years teaching and not a teacher, come on!

But it is true that Benny Meng badmouths everyone. The things he is saying here about the H.F.Y. family are horrible. But I heard him saying horrible things about the H.F.Y. family even before he broke up with G.M. Garrett Gee and I heard him saying horrible things about all his other teachers and partners.

And B.T.W. the video has H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tao too!

[Chango]

Hell with all of your rumors etc.... OK here it is Alex and Sifu Meng had something to do with Micheal Jackson death. You know I think Joe Jackson was in on it!!! :D

Hey I've always liked prince better so from now on I'm no longer Chango I will be referred to by a symbol !! LOL!

Every time HFY is brought up there is all of this trash talk! I tell you I don't miss that part of things! LOL!

Hudson if you are looking for certificates I will print one up for you!!! LOL! If a person was given graces to teach that should be good enough. As long as what your learning makes since and helps you to get better. But maybe that's just my positive attitude showing?

Ok you win Alex and Sifu meng are the worst thing ever happen to martial arts!! They are the reason Elvis had bad kempo form on stage !!!!!! No can we move on?

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is going to be a tough road to travel - defending Benny Meng. LOL with this...because if a lot of other people formerly (or presently) still with Garrett Gee are doubting the character and motivations of Benny Meng by now...

they won't be here (on this thread) doing the usual dance.

And LOL in thinking that if Meng bad-mouths literally everyone he's ever learned from (or even heard of, LOL) in the wing chun world, at one time or another...

then why would he not do this to Garrett Gee now?

[Hudson Li]

Everyone I meet that received H.F.Y. instruction from Benny Meng say it was different from what they received from G.M. Garrett Gee, so even the blind could see that Benny Meng was absorbing H.F.Y. material for creating his own Wing Chun style. I know the H.F.Y. people in the United States and Brazil had an issue with Benny Meng because they spent some thousands of dollars but were not instructed in H.F.Y.
But I think G.M. Garrett Gee was not the saint or the hero of that history because the people of Rio have been complaining of that for years. And although I dislike Benny Meng's behaviour I must admit that he raises some good points on the site of his Brazilian Red Flower Boxers Society as for exemple the fact that H.F.Y. was created 10 years ago and that not even the oldest members have seen the entire system to date. These points echoe Terence's, so it seems that now Benny Meng has joined the anti-H.F.Y. army, but it is wierd that he still teaches H.F.Y. as he did in his last seminar here in Fortaleza.
Chango your post was weird too, kind of "I have no arguments".

[Ultimatewingchun]

Before jumping onto some "Garrett Gee made it all up" bandwagon just yet, or that Garrett Gee and (present) company are all messed up about this or that - keep in mind that it was primarily Benny Meng who wrote article-after-article in "KUNG FU" magazine back in the mid/late 1990's...trying to convince the world that HFY was this incredible Shaolin wing chun system that has now re-emerged (with Garrett Gee)...

and that it had this incredible history with tons of important events, dates, names, places, etc.

Meng was the chief public relations man in this regard. Remember that! And now people should take Meng's word for it that HFY (and the people behind it, ie.- Garrett Gee), aren't all that they have been claiming to be?

Lots of shady business going on here, so don't jump to any quick conclusions.

[Hudson Li]

I agree with you. And I want to say that the history that G.M. Garrett Gee told us in Fortaleza was not the same that Benny Meng wrote on the magazines, on the Mastering Kung Fu book and on the internet. According to G.M. Garrett Gee H.F.Y. took shape in the 1800s with Hung Gun Biu.
I do not believe that H.F.Y. was created ten years ago and I do not know if the oldest students of G.M. Garrett Gee have seen the entire system, because the only H.F.Y. people I met were Benny Meng and G.M. Garrett Gee.
I just think it is interesting to see how quick Benny Meng changed his discourse after he broke up with the H.F.Y. family and I think it is also interesting to know that he and his representatives are still teaching Hung Fa Yi in spite of G.M. Garrett Gee.

[Ultimatewingchun]

This has always been Benny Meng's mode of operation. He teaches what he learned from Moy Yat. Then he leaves Moy Yat (but still continues to teach what he learned from him)...until he meets Garrett Gee and begins training with him. And begins teaching what he learned from Gee. Now he leaves Garrett Gee but still teaches what he learned from him. And now he's supposedly learning something else?

And all through these events he plays a game of bad-mouthing what he learned from his previous instructors (and the instructors themselves) privately (or semi-privately)...while putting on a smiling, "we're all brothers in wing chun" face in public.

The guy is a snake.

[Chango]

I see no point in giving this further energy! As I said before this does not help our system regardless if it is HFY etc....

I have no attachments! Once again it's KFO business as usual this time it's my Sifu last week it we Robert Chu Next week it will be someone else.

I did not know there is a anti-HFY Army!!
I'll let it be known I'm not anti anything. I don't speak for Sifu Meng but from my point of view he simply has called them as he has seen them. He's not anti anything. I know I have a strong H.F.Y Identity. But I have to be the first to say that I have Wing/Weng Chun ID 1st!

I'm not going to drop what I know to be true simply becuase someone from one lineage does one thing or another. I'm a professional martial artist 1st and foremost! I learn martial arts out of love and as my way of life. Sifu Meng has given me this opportunity! Most important he has taught me to keep a open mind.
With out that I would have passed up the chance to meet and train with more then 15 different masters/ Grand masters of Wing chun a international wushu team coach and also Wu bin (the coach of Jet Li) 2 tae kwon do Olypians amoung others as well as some of you on this site.

My point Say what you want hash up rumors etc... the only people that care about this trash are those who set by the PC etc... and never really train anyway!
I know his words as well as mine will get twisted etc... So once again I'll leave this thread just as I came to it!

This is my last contribution on this thread! So have fun fellas!!:D

The symbol LOL! :p

[t_niehoff]

And although I dislike Benny Meng's behaviour I must admit that he raises some good points on the site of his Brazilian Red Flower Boxers Society as for exemple the fact that H.F.Y. was created 10 years ago and that not even the oldest members have seen the entire system to date. These points echoe Terence's, so it seems that now Benny Meng has joined the anti-H.F.Y. army, but it is wierd that he still teaches H.F.Y. as he did in his last seminar here in Fortaleza.


I'm not part of any "anti-HFY army". It's not HFY per se that I don't like. What I don't like is the dishonesty and bullsh1t.

I don't think there is anything wrong with someone, including Garrett, creating their own WCK currciulum. That's precisely what all the so-called grandmaster's in the past did: they took various teachings, synthesized them, and came up with what they thought was a "better" way of teaching WCK. Different textbooks for the same subject. That's what Yip did, YKS did, Sum did, and even Andreas' Chi Sim is his synthesis of several weng chun lineages. No BFD. So I don't care if HFY is only 10 years old and was Garrett's creation. Nor do I care if Cheung created TWC. The textbook isn't the subject matter.

What bothers me is the dishonesty oftentimes attached to that, the lies, the stories, and the bullsh1t -- and how people will defend these things with religious - bordering on pathological - zeal. Let's just be honest about it all.

It's funny but one HFY poster even uses this as his signature tag:

"Let me ask you this - where does Chu Sau Lei come from? Chu Sau Lei, since it's named after a person that is still alive, can't be very old - sounds a bit made up to me..

Alan Orr: It is made up. I have said this so many times."

Exactly. It's Robert's curriculum, essentially Yip Man-based but derived from his (Robert's) experience. Robert has his own (slightly different) textbook. Alan doesn't have a problem with that. Nor do I. Nor do we have a problem simply saying so.

It's a shame HFY can't take that honest approach.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Meng's behavior and claims through all these years are not rumors. They are facts.

[t_niehoff]

I agree with you. And I want to say that the history that G.M. Garrett Gee told us in Fortaleza was not the same that Benny Meng wrote on the magazines, on the Mastering Kung Fu book and on the internet. According to G.M. Garrett Gee H.F.Y. took shape in the 1800s with Hung Gun Biu.
I do not believe that H.F.Y. was created ten years ago and I do not know if the oldest students of G.M. Garrett Gee have seen the entire system, because the only H.F.Y. people I met were Benny Meng and G.M. Garrett Gee.


Do you think that Garrett did not know what was written in the book co-authored by him or that he didn't know what Benny wrote in articles and the internet? Was he just kept in the dark as to all this? If not, why did he not do something about it?

[t_niehoff]

"I don't think there is anything wrong with someone, including Garrett, creating their own WCK currciulum. That's precisely what all the so-called grandmaster's in the past did: they took various teachings, synthesized them, and came up with what they thought was a 'better' way of teaching WCK. Different textbooks for the same subject. That's what Yip did, YKS did, Sum did, and even Andreas' Chi Sim is his synthesis of several weng chun lineages. No BFD. So I don't care if HFY is only 10 years old and was Garrett's creation. Nor do I care if Cheung created TWC. The textbook isn't the subject matter." (Chango)


***OKAY folks, here it is. And the "change" begins. Now we see a Benny Meng apologist on here saying that "there isn't anything wrong with...Garrett Gee, creating their (his) own WCK curriculum."

Cute choice of words, huh? :rolleyes:

And the self-serving, opportunist, stab-everybody-in-the-back-and-continue-on-your-way agenda continues.

Victor, that was not Chango who wrote this, but me (Terence). I am not a "Benny Meng apologist" though I don't have the h@rd-on you apparently do for the guy.

[li hudson]

my .02

3. The "important news" posted on the website regarding "the split" is obviously Alex's way of trying to legitimize his lack of HFY certification. However, as Chango said prior, it is not the business of the public and best left alone.

Agree, It's None of public business. Leave it alone


4. WTF is up with Hudson Li and Li Hudson?? I suggest you two go fight it out amongst yourselves.

Sounds like a Mexican knife fight is in order if you ask me!

Originally, that's my intent.....until everyone start jumping in!:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's why I deleted the post. I mistakenly thought Chango wrote that.

[li hudson]

When Benny Meng and G.M. Garrett Gee gave the workshop in my hometown they said Alex Magnos was authorized to teach H.F.Y. If he lacked H.F.Y. why did the leaders say he could teach? I am feeling deceived now because I spent almost one year training with Alex and now Alex says H.F.Y. was made up by G.M. Garrett Gee and you say G.M. Gee authorized Alex to teach even not knowing H.F.Y.

I wonder what is being taught in Alex school now that he advertises H.F.Y., Chi Sim and Black Flag packed as Shaolin Wing Chun. He learned a lot of H.F.Y through the videos that Meng sent to him about all he trained in California the last 10 years, it is more than 10 videos, so Alex knows much more than the H.F.Y. people of Rio de Janeiro. Benny is here in Fortaleza and is correcting all the H.F.Y. that Alex learned by the videos. Because Alex knows more than anyone else here, he says he is the greatest authority in H.F.Y. in Latin America. Now he is learning Black Flag and Chi Sim the same way and Meng is correcting him personally so he will also be an authority in those styles.

And B.T.W. the free seminar that Benny Meng gave was crowded and he taught another bit of H.F.Y. so I believe there is something we do not know about his brake up uf the rest of the family, because he once said he would be the next Grand Master and he still teaches H.F.Y. even if the H.F.Y. people says he is not a real teacher. 10 years teaching and not a teacher, come on!

It's none of your xxxxxxx business !


But it is true that Benny Meng badmouths everyone. The things he is saying here about the H.F.Y. family are horrible. But I heard him saying horrible things about the H.F.Y. family even before he broke up with G.M. Garrett Gee and I heard him saying horrible things about all his other teachers and partners.
And B.T.W. the video has H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tao too!

The only think I heard about badmouthing someone, so far coming from the person with last name of CHU, as well as his trio; Pikachu and Stupid Lawyer. Whenever there's a hurricane of 'politics fights', there are always those Chu's Trio.

I haven't found a single posting nor video of seminar from Meng that demonstrate that badmouthing....

[Hudson Li]

I do not care if H.F.Y. was created by G.M. Gee either. The one thing that I do not understand is why Benny Meng created a history for H.F.Y. and published it everywhere but the H.F.Y. people from California did not fix the misinformation. I would ask that to G.M. Garrett Gee when he told us the different version of the H.F.Y. history but Alex told me to shut up and I did not want to be inconvenient.
And everyone who trained YM WC before commented that H.F.Y. had a lot of Y.M. W.C., at least the H.F.Y. that Benny Meng shew here in accordance with the curriculum of M.K.F. book.
And I cannot understand either why Benny Meng now publishes that H.F.Y. has no curriculum to date when it is known that Benny Meng himself was a co-writer of M.K.F. and we can find a complete H.F.Y. curriculum on that book. Maybe that was a curriculum that was made up by Benny Meng, with lots of Y.M. W.C. material, so that H.F.Y. as presented by M.K.F. was a creation of Benny Meng, and not G.M. Garret Gee?
B.T.W., so what that Robert Chu created his own system? What's wrong with that?
It is weird that G.M. Garrett Gee said in my hometown that he is thankful for Robert Chu because of the information in C.W.C. book about H.F.Y.
So I do not understand why Benny Meng, his students and some H.F.Y. people talks bad about Robert Chu.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well that was yesterday. Maybe today Meng thinks more of Robert Chu, because it might now serve a purpose. An opportunist purpose here in the summer of 09.

Wait till Christmas...

[Hudson Li]

Yes, my business since I have trained that stuff for a year, so much energy and money involved, and those subjects have been revolved on this forum for a long time, so it is interesting to know what is really behind the H.F.Y. - Benny Meng - G.M. Garrett Gee scene.

[li hudson]

Everyone I meet that received H.F.Y. instruction from Benny Meng say it was different from what they received from G.M. Garrett Gee, so even the blind could see that Benny Meng was absorbing H.F.Y. material for creating his own Wing Chun style. I know the H.F.Y. people in the United States and Brazil had an issue with Benny Meng because they spent some thousands of dollars but were not instructed in H.F.Y.
But I think G.M. Garrett Gee was not the saint or the hero of that history because the people of Rio have been complaining of that for years. And although I dislike Benny Meng's behaviour I must admit that he raises some good points on the site of his Brazilian Red Flower Boxers Society as for exemple the fact that H.F.Y. was created 10 years ago and that not even the oldest members have seen the entire system to date. These points echoe Terence's, so it seems that now Benny Meng has joined the anti-H.F.Y. army, but it is wierd that he still teaches H.F.Y. as he did in his last seminar here in Fortaleza.
Chango your post was weird too, kind of "I have no arguments".

First, I went to his website and all of his affiliated website, I don't find a single word talking about Anti HFY Army.... Are you trying to start something here.....You are such a good provocator !!

second, Regardless what happend with benny, or hfy, it's not your business !

[li hudson]

This is going to be a tough road to travel - defending Benny Meng. LOL with this...because if a lot of other people formerly (or presently) still with Garrett Gee are doubting the character and motivations of Benny Meng by now...

they won't be here (on this thread) doing the usual dance.

And LOL in thinking that if Meng bad-mouths literally everyone he's ever learned from (or even heard of, LOL) in the wing chun world, at one time or another...

then why would he not do this to Garrett Gee now?

With due all respect,
The only think I find about badmouthing someone, so far coming from the person with last name of CHU, as well as his trio; Pikachu and Stupid Lawyer. Whenever there's a hurricane of 'politics fights', there are always those Chu's Trio.

I haven't found a single posting nor video of seminar from Meng that demonstrate that badmouthing....

[li hudson]

I agree with you. And I want to say that the history that G.M. Garrett Gee told us in Fortaleza was not the same that Benny Meng wrote on the magazines, on the Mastering Kung Fu book and on the internet. According to G.M. Garrett Gee H.F.Y. took shape in the 1800s with Hung Gun Biu.
I do not believe that H.F.Y. was created ten years ago and I do not know if the oldest students of G.M. Garrett Gee have seen the entire system, because the only H.F.Y. people I met were Benny Meng and G.M. Garrett Gee.
I just think it is interesting to see how quick Benny Meng changed his discourse after he broke up with the H.F.Y. family and I think it is also interesting to know that he and his representatives are still teaching Hung Fa Yi in spite of G.M. Garrett Gee.

Once again, it's not your business. Mind your own !

[li hudson]

I'm not part of any "anti-HFY army". It's not HFY per se that I don't like. What I don't like is the dishonesty and bullsh1t.

I don't think there is anything wrong with someone, including Garrett, creating their own WCK currciulum. That's precisely what all the so-called grandmaster's in the past did: they took various teachings, synthesized them, and came up with what they thought was a "better" way of teaching WCK. Different textbooks for the same subject. That's what Yip did, YKS did, Sum did, and even Andreas' Chi Sim is his synthesis of several weng chun lineages. No BFD. So I don't care if HFY is only 10 years old and was Garrett's creation. Nor do I care if Cheung created TWC. The textbook isn't the subject matter.

What bothers me is the dishonesty oftentimes attached to that, the lies, the stories, and the bullsh1t -- and how people will defend these things with religious - bordering on pathological - zeal. Let's just be honest about it all.

It's funny but one HFY poster even uses this as his signature tag:

"Let me ask you this - where does Chu Sau Lei come from? Chu Sau Lei, since it's named after a person that is still alive, can't be very old - sounds a bit made up to me..

Alan Orr: It is made up. I have said this so many times."

Exactly. It's Robert's curriculum, essentially Yip Man-based but derived from his (Robert's) experience. Robert has his own (slightly different) textbook. Alan doesn't have a problem with that. Nor do I. Nor do we have a problem simply saying so.

It's a shame HFY can't take that honest approach.

First, I think that signature tag is wrong, it's disrespecting someone else.

However, it's not your business. Mind your own !

[Ultimatewingchun]

What's the address of the Brazilian website?

[t_niehoff]

Once again, it's not your business. Mind your own !

If you teach publically, if you make public claims (books, articles, website, etc.) then you open yourself and your claims to scrutiny by the public. They become everyone's business.

[li hudson]

I do not care if H.F.Y. was created by G.M. Gee either. The one thing that I do not understand is why Benny Meng created a history for H.F.Y. and published it everywhere but the H.F.Y. people from California did not fix the misinformation. I would ask that to G.M. Garrett Gee when he told us the different version of the H.F.Y. history but Alex told me to shut up and I did not want to be inconvenient.
And everyone who trained YM WC before commented that H.F.Y. had a lot of Y.M. W.C., at least the H.F.Y. that Benny Meng shew here in accordance with the curriculum of M.K.F. book.
And I cannot understand either why Benny Meng now publishes that H.F.Y. has no curriculum to date when it is known that Benny Meng himself was a co-writer of M.K.F. and we can find a complete H.F.Y. curriculum on that book. Maybe that was a curriculum that was made up by Benny Meng, with lots of Y.M. W.C. material, so that H.F.Y. as presented by M.K.F. was a creation of Benny Meng, and not G.M. Garret Gee?
B.T.W., so what that Robert Chu created his own system? What's wrong with that?
It is weird that G.M. Garrett Gee said in my hometown that he is thankful for Robert Chu because of the information in C.W.C. book about H.F.Y.
So I do not understand why Benny Meng, his students and some H.F.Y. people talks bad about Robert Chu.

Again, stop being provocative. I don't see a single posting done by Meng talking bad about Robert Chu !

I do find many posting badmouthing other system and lineage written by someone with last of name of Chu and his trio

[t_niehoff]

First, I think that signature tag is wrong, it's disrespecting someone else.

However, it's not your business. Mind your own !

I think the tag is ironic.

[li hudson]

Yes, my business since I have trained that stuff for a year, so much energy and money involved, and those subjects have been revolved on this forum for a long time, so it is interesting to know what is really behind the H.F.Y. - Benny Meng - G.M. Garrett Gee scene.

If you want to know, go talk to those gentleman like a gentleman in person. Don't be a girl, gossiping their names behind their back.

[t_niehoff]

Again, stop being provocative. I don't see a single posting done by Meng talking bad about Robert Chu !

I do find many posting badmouthing other system and lineage written by someone with last of name of Chu and his trio

I think if you seearch HFY108 forum for Benny's posts you will find some things. :)

[t_niehoff]

Let me repeat: If you teach publically, if you make public claims (books, articles, website, etc.) then you open yourself and your claims to scrutiny by the public. They become everyone's business.

[li hudson]

If you teach publically, if you make public claims (books, articles, website, etc.) then you open yourself and your claims to scrutiny by the public. They become everyone's business.

If you don't like those claims then suck it up. Every one has their own history and HIS-story(Like Black Crane+Ermei Wingchun of Pikachu ) and lineage.

If it is not your lineage/school, mind your own business !

[li hudson]

What's the address of the Brazilian website?

I think it is
http://www.shaolinwingchun.com.br

[t_niehoff]

BTW, why is this family tree

http://www.hungfakwoon.com/familytree.htm

on the HFY website if Garrett is saying HFY comes from Huhng Gun Biu? Is the website wrong?

[t_niehoff]

If you don't like those claims then suck it up. Every one has their own history and HIS-story(Like Black Crane+Ermei Wingchun of Pikachu ) and lineage.

If it is not your lineage/school, mind your own business !

So you think if people make false claims or lie, that we should just ignore it and let them go on about their business? Who cares if someone misleads people, takes money uneer false pretenses, etc.? Is this your attitude?

[li hudson]

So you think if people make false claims or lie, that we should just ignore it and let them go on about their business? Who cares if someone misleads people, takes money uneer false pretenses, etc.? Is this your attitude?

What makes you sure it was a false claim.
If the history was the way it was told by their forefather, then what you said is really very insulting...

I don't think your Sifu ever taught you that way......
Remember your sifu posting:

Absolutely! An important lesson to learn!

There are too many conflicting stories and we should not identify with them personally, merely take out those elements of the story which can be useful.

You also show what a rational person does, as opposed to what someone who's identity is wrapped up in their "truth".

Thank you for your contribution!

[Hudson Li]

Mr. It-is-not-your-business, I think you did not check this site (oh maybe you do not speak any other language, do you?) -> http://www.shaolinwingchun.com.br/inicio.php

It is written,

- Main problems in the structure of the leadership of the HFYWCKFA that led to the breaking up:
. Unexistance of a curriculum of HFY even after 10 years.
. No feedback at all (there are no tests).
. None of the members, even the oldest, have seen the entire system.
. Leaders make campaign to recruit the students behind the back of their own representatives.
. There is an inner encouragement for HFY members to get into internet battles.
. Even practitioners with more than 10 years as masters- instructors are not recognized and many times they are discarded as if they have no value at all, in spite of their sacrifices.
. There are many other within the organization, mas we will keep them for intern information only, for we do not want to cause any harm for those who decided to stay within that organization in Brazil and the USA.
. HFY Wing Chun was only brought to light thanks to the reputation and the level of Master Benny Meng and the Ving Tsun Musem. Were not the excellent job of Master Benny Meng regarding the promotion of HFY Wing Chun, nothing would have happened.

[li hudson]

So you think if people make false claims or lie, that we should just ignore it and let them go on about their business? Who cares if someone misleads people, takes money uneer false pretenses, etc.? Is this your attitude?

More of your sifu's teaching:


Absolutely! An important lesson to learn!

There are too many conflicting stories and we should not identify with them personally, merely take out those elements of the story which can be useful.

You also show what a rational person does, as opposed to what someone who's identity is wrapped up in their "truth".

Thank you for your contribution!


and also this !!!



Continuing....

When I moved to Los Angeles in 1988, I met a Vietnamese Chinese monk at a martial arts performance. He sat next to me and asked if I learned martial arts. I told him yes, "WCK.."

He was delighted, as he was also learned in WCK. "Our lineage came from China, from a Yuen Chai Wan..."

I recognized the lineage, it was Yuen Kay Shan's brother who went to Cambodia and later Vietnam, teaching the local Wah Kiu (Overseas Chinese) there.

He asked me if I learned the Gim set?

"Gim? What Gim?"

Then he asked if I learned the Ng Ying Hei Gung (Five Animal Qigong set)?

I told him that in our lineage does not have such a thing. I explained we have Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee. He stopped to correct me, "Siu Lien Tao?" No, our first set was "Siu Nim Tao", but I clarified that "Siu Lien Tao was the old name..."

The monk was puzzled, and asked me the origins of my WCK. I told him about grandmaster Yip Man and his branch in HK. He did not know of Yip Man, as he was from Vietnam.

Finally, he asked me, "Are you sure you learned WCK?!"

I smiled, and clasped my hands in the the Buddhist salutation and said "Amitoufo!", the performance was beginning...and thus ended our conversation...

------------------------------------------------
So, I ask you, should I have thrashed the monk? Should I have insisted mine was better without the 5 animal qi gong? That we didn't learn any stupid gim set? And that he should get an ass kicking because my lineage didn't have any of his items? What would you have done? :)



and this



Yes, Terence, that is a big problem. If people can maintain an open, neutral, "higher" level of mind to listen, without bringing in emotional baggage, ego, "old" patterns, etc. a lot could be more constructive and actually help.

All criticism has a bit of truth in it, but the emotion is overbearing and gets people to react defensively or turn off to it.

As I get older, and now being a parent, I find I have to be a better example, and have to be more sensitive using proper language. It takes more brainpower to choose more appropriate words, and also, if discussing on a message board, we do not know the character of the person getting the message, so perhaps it is better that we conduct our words more carefully.

Many people who aren't aware of your straightforward style and can have a problem with it. TMA, does put things like "courtesy" and "respect" first, probably with the wisdom that if not, things will get out of hand.

Law, science, philosophy, history, politics, and medicine all do use Socratic methods to arrive at truth. Arguments can be a norm, and people in those fields take it with a grain of salt. But others outside that field and worldview can get upset and emotional.



and good advise from great wing chun practicioner;


It's what you can DO...

not the history or the his-story behind it.

Can you fight with it, for example?

Everything else is ego-pandering. One way or the other. Either by those trying to set up (make claims) about the historical lineage of "their" wing chun - or by those with some sort of vested (ego) interest in trying to tear down other peoples' lineage stories (histories/his-stories).

Two sides of one coin. I say, throw the coin into a fountain and move on.

Can you fight with your wing chun? That's what matters. Can you pass it on as an instructor? That's what matters. Can you act like a good ambassador for wing chun (ie.- be respectful to others)? That's what matters.

Can you stop "making believe" that you're really doing these things, when instead all you're really doing is looking for some "edge" on the other guy?

That's what matters, Robert.


So, if forget what your sifu taught you, read again....and again.....and again....

[li hudson]

Mr. It-is-not-your-business, I think you did not check this site (oh maybe you do not speak any other language, do you?) -> http://www.shaolinwingchun.com.br/inicio.php

It is written,

- Main problems in the strcture of the leadership of the HFYWCKFA that led to the breaking up:
. Unexistance of a curriculum of HFY even after 10 years.
. No feedback at all (there are no tests).
. None of the members, even the oldest, have seen the entire system.
. Leaders make campaign to recruit the students behind the back of their own representatives.
. There is an inner encouragement for HFY members to get into internet battles.
. Even practitioners with more than 10 years as masters- instructors are nor recognized and many times they are discarded as if they have no value at all, in spite of their sacrifices.
. There are many other within the organization, mas we will keep them for intern information only, for we do not want to cause any harm for those who decided to stay within that organization in Brazil and the USA.
. HFY Wing Chun was only brought to light thanks to the reputation and the level of Master Benny Meng and the Ving Tsun Musem. Were not the excellent job of Master Benny Meng regarding the promotion of HFY Wing Chun, nothing would have happened.


So ? It's still not your business. If you have some dispute in your mind, talk to them like a man. and If you don't like to school then leave.

Have some respect!

[li hudson]

So you think if people make false claims or lie, that we should just ignore it and let them go on about their business? Who cares if someone misleads people, takes money uneer false pretenses, etc.? Is this your attitude?

What makes you sure it was a false claim.
If the history was the way it was told by their forefather, then what you said is really very insulting...



So you think if people make false claims or lie, that we should just ignore it and let them go on about their business? Who cares if someone misleads people, takes money uneer false pretenses, etc.? Is this your attitude?

More of your sifu's teaching:


Absolutely! An important lesson to learn!

There are too many conflicting stories and we should not identify with them personally, merely take out those elements of the story which can be useful.

You also show what a rational person does, as opposed to what someone who's identity is wrapped up in their "truth".

Thank you for your contribution!


and also this !!!



Continuing....

When I moved to Los Angeles in 1988, I met a Vietnamese Chinese monk at a martial arts performance. He sat next to me and asked if I learned martial arts. I told him yes, "WCK.."

He was delighted, as he was also learned in WCK. "Our lineage came from China, from a Yuen Chai Wan..."

I recognized the lineage, it was Yuen Kay Shan's brother who went to Cambodia and later Vietnam, teaching the local Wah Kiu (Overseas Chinese) there.

He asked me if I learned the Gim set?

"Gim? What Gim?"

Then he asked if I learned the Ng Ying Hei Gung (Five Animal Qigong set)?

I told him that in our lineage does not have such a thing. I explained we have Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee. He stopped to correct me, "Siu Lien Tao?" No, our first set was "Siu Nim Tao", but I clarified that "Siu Lien Tao was the old name..."

The monk was puzzled, and asked me the origins of my WCK. I told him about grandmaster Yip Man and his branch in HK. He did not know of Yip Man, as he was from Vietnam.

Finally, he asked me, "Are you sure you learned WCK?!"

I smiled, and clasped my hands in the the Buddhist salutation and said "Amitoufo!", the performance was beginning...and thus ended our conversation...

------------------------------------------------
So, I ask you, should I have thrashed the monk? Should I have insisted mine was better without the 5 animal qi gong? That we didn't learn any stupid gim set? And that he should get an ass kicking because my lineage didn't have any of his items? What would you have done? :)



and this



Yes, Terence, that is a big problem. If people can maintain an open, neutral, "higher" level of mind to listen, without bringing in emotional baggage, ego, "old" patterns, etc. a lot could be more constructive and actually help.

All criticism has a bit of truth in it, but the emotion is overbearing and gets people to react defensively or turn off to it.

As I get older, and now being a parent, I find I have to be a better example, and have to be more sensitive using proper language. It takes more brainpower to choose more appropriate words, and also, if discussing on a message board, we do not know the character of the person getting the message, so perhaps it is better that we conduct our words more carefully.

Many people who aren't aware of your straightforward style and can have a problem with it. TMA, does put things like "courtesy" and "respect" first, probably with the wisdom that if not, things will get out of hand.

Law, science, philosophy, history, politics, and medicine all do use Socratic methods to arrive at truth. Arguments can be a norm, and people in those fields take it with a grain of salt. But others outside that field and worldview can get upset and emotional.



and good advise from great wing chun practicioner;


It's what you can DO...

not the history or the his-story behind it.

Can you fight with it, for example?

Everything else is ego-pandering. One way or the other. Either by those trying to set up (make claims) about the historical lineage of "their" wing chun - or by those with some sort of vested (ego) interest in trying to tear down other peoples' lineage stories (histories/his-stories).

Two sides of one coin. I say, throw the coin into a fountain and move on.

Can you fight with your wing chun? That's what matters. Can you pass it on as an instructor? That's what matters. Can you act like a good ambassador for wing chun (ie.- be respectful to others)? That's what matters.

Can you stop "making believe" that you're really doing these things, when instead all you're really doing is looking for some "edge" on the other guy?

That's what matters, Robert.


So, if forget what your sifu taught you, read again....and again.....and again....

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mr. It-is-not-your-business, I think you did not check this site (oh maybe you do not speak any other language, do you?) -> http://www.shaolinwingchun.com.br/inicio.php

It is written,

- Main problems in the structure of the leadership of the HFYWCKFA that led to the breaking up:
. Unexistance of a curriculum of HFY even after 10 years.
. No feedback at all (there are no tests).
. None of the members, even the oldest, have seen the entire system.
. Leaders make campaign to recruit the students behind the back of their own representatives.
. There is an inner encouragement for HFY members to get into internet battles.
. Even practitioners with more than 10 years as masters- instructors are not recognized and many times they are discarded as if they have no value at all, in spite of their sacrifices.
. There are many other within the organization, mas we will keep them for intern information only, for we do not want to cause any harm for those who decided to stay within that organization in Brazil and the USA.
. HFY Wing Chun was only brought to light thanks to the reputation and the level of Master Benny Meng and the Ving Tsun Musem. Were not the excellent job of Master Benny Meng regarding the promotion of HFY Wing Chun, nothing would have happened.


***MORE BENNY MENG BACK-STABBING OPPORTUNISM AND CHEST BEATING, especially (but limited to) the last point.

[li hudson]

***MORE BENNY MENG BACK-STABBING OPPORTUNISM AND CHEST BEATING, especially (but limited to) the last point.

Victor, did Benny ever do you wrong?

If yes, settle it down in person.

If not, it is not your business, your school, your lineage.

[t_niehoff]

I can understand why you don't want people to examine these things.

But what you need to understand is that all these HFY claims are being made as MARKETING -- they are used to sell HFY to the public. When false claims are made to the public, particularly to make money, then these things should be addressed.

To say we should just ignore these things, that "they are no one's business" is irresponsible. That sort of view puts you in bed with the people making the false claims. You become, in your silence, co-conspirators.

That might be fine with you. But personally, I think that honesty and disclosure is more important.

[Hudson Li]

That message was forwarded by the past Brazilian HFY leaders to the regional representative of Fortaleza who by his turn forwarded it to me and the rest of the students. Mr. Mind-your-own-business this is how your beloved Benny Meng acts... on the others' back and placing his robotic students on the front line while he poses as the good boy.
ps, I edited this post in order to delete the email address of the tons of people to whom Benny Meng sent the message.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Benny Meng" <bennymeng@vtmuseum.org>
To: 8< 8< 8<
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:29 PM
Subject: Update on politics


> All,
>
> With all the politics that continue from Robert Chu and his ilk, the time is
> rapidly approaching for us to have prepared shooters at each school. While
> still maintaining the philosophy of not going out of our way to attack
> others we need to prepare for the possibility of one of Robert Chu's
> students showing up to challenge our Instructors.
>
> In the past, I always give the benefit of the doubt to people. I had a
> personal talk with Alan Orr and we agreed to go out of our way to stop the
> attacks but Robert Chu has undermined his own student. Alan refuses to see
> the true face of his own Sifu so all agreements are off. I will be coming
> out with everything I know about Robert Chu and what he has done.
>
> Here are the things to take away from this email:
> 1) Who is willing to train fighters to step up to the plate if a challenge
> is issued? Or has fighters ready to go?
> 2) I'm preparing myself to personally challenge Robert Chu if the situation
> is appropriate. I always lead by example.
> 3) All our members and especially our leaders should know the truth about
> Robert Chu, which I am putting together for hfy108.com. In the meantime,
> here are two examples from Robert and Alan just recently in the brand new
> year. Robert disrespected my teacher and Alan disrespected my Sigung.
>
> Master Meng
>
> =======
> Robert Chu wrote
> Let's say for example, just being facetious, I take William Cheung's forms
> and mix it up with my Gu Lao and Yip Man and other systems like Tai Ji, Xing
> Yi, Yi Quan, and Ba Gua I've studied, creating variations of the William
> Cheung forms, add some unique and ancient sounding terms, take from Weng
> Chun's bridge arm concepts, Fei Lung Fu Mun's core staff concepts, add some
> Secret society lore, mix it up with historical facts, add secret iron body
> qigong, and unique weaponry, and attribute this art to Yat Chum Dai Si and
> Tan Sao Ng, add a few bogus no-names to cover the span of 150 years between
> Wong Wah Bao and Tan Sao Ng (as it is the average joe doesn't know any
> Chinese history or martial arts as I know it), demonstrate my skills and
> charge a $30K discipleship to get the good stuff and market the hell out of
> it with some zealots... what would I be? You see, many people do things to
> make $ and a living. At the end of the day, you have to live with yourself
> and what you do. If you have no conscious and don't acknowledge truth, that
> is up to you. If you lie like that, and don't worry that you will answer to
> the ancestors, and think yourself beyond the system and the fools you are
> deceiving, then you are a megalomaniac, and care nothing for people. Heaven
> takes care of all that. It is common in Chinese culture to "Pien Lo Fan" or
> "Pien Gwai Lo" ("Trick the Barbarians") - of which I have no stomach for. I
> grew up here, but as a first generation Chinese, I don't like that. People
> are people and lies and deceit is bad. Better to be honest and tell people
> the truth.
>
> For example, we hear a lot of "new" things like Kiu Sao - Weng Chun has it,
> other branches try to emphasize it. But do you think it doesn't exist in Yip
> Man WCK? What is Tan, Bong and Fuk? Is it not a Kiu Sao? Chi Sao is really
> Chi Kiu Sao - you stick to the bridge arms, but Cantonese like to shorten
> most terms. All Cantonese and Southern fist speak of Kiu Sao, and their art
> being of "Cheung Kiu" or "Duen Kiu" type. We have multiple sayings of "Yau
> Kiu Gor Kiu", etc. My 22 concepts are "Kiu" methods. There's nothing new
> here. Just that people make a big deal out of terms.
>
> People created martial arts, it didn't fall from the sky, nor did superior
> beings create the martial arts - they simply are created by someone. WCK is
> not even a great battlefield system - it is a civilian system. If it were
> really a battlefield system it would have a strong emphasis on spear and two
> handed sword, rather than the weapons it has, and even less emphasis on
> empty hand. Also, it is too **** complicxated to learn WCK. Look at armed
> forces fighting, Krav Maga, KGB stuff - their method is based on killing
> instantly. Many WCK exponents waste too much time and not realistic at all.
>
> All of this is truly what we know. Other things, they are more speculation
> and educated guesses. In a way, I feel I am composing "Yes Virginia, there
> is a Santa Claus..." letter. I wholeheartedly want my WCK family to know
> what I know and feel about secret origins and don't want people taken in by
> charlatans.
>
> Finally, WCK is a physical art, an art based on application. More people
> have to seek out the truth in application (i.e. with pressure, under
> pressure, under unusual circumstances and attacks) - this is the "real" and
> "original" WCK. This will lead you to see if the generation you studied
> under has the real thing or not. And I have to say, even if Yip Man was your
> teacher's teacher or great grand teacher, the one that attains is the one
> who has skill. Skill is earned, not by titles, generation, ranks,
> relationship, lineage, etc., but through real practice and application. Want
> real WCK? - it's right out there under your nose. You can learn under an
> uncle or nephew, but always the one who has it, has it.
> =======
>
> =======
> Alan Orr wrote:
> The problem is...when you write a book purporting to be factual (like
> mastering kung fu)...claim to be a museum curator and historian and then
> fill your book with *evidence* that consists of little more than drawings
> that you commissoned, stills from MA films and computer generated images of
> your ancestors no one (except perhaps your own students it seems) is going
> to take you seriously....

[t_niehoff]

Oh, that's hilarious!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes, li hudson, Benny did both my wing chun instructors dirty, Moy Yat (now deceased) and William Cheung. Wanted to go back and pay Meng a visit after hearing from William Cheung what the exact particulars were (which was exactly one day after the-one-and-only-time that I actually met Meng)...but was told not to by William Cheung.

So I respected his wishes.

But that doesn't mean I should let it go here on the internet. The guy really is a snake, and the more that people realize this, the better off they'll be - perhaps in time not to be part of the next wave of those seeking wing chun - and wind up getting screwed by Meng.

May I ask exactly what is your relationship to Benny Meng?

And why is it that your signature is clearly a spin-off of Hudon Li's?

What's that all about?

[li hudson]

That message was forwarded by the past Brazilian HFY leaders to the regional representative of Fortaleza who by his turn forwarded it to me and the rest of the students. Mr. Mind-your-own-business this is how your beloved Benny Meng acts... on the others' back and placing his robotic students on the front line while he poses as the good boy.


Hey Mr. Mind-Everyone-Business(Hopefully you don't touch someone else'wife:rolleyes:),

Regardless what you said, it's still not your business.

1. My guess is BM Sent that email to all of his 'downline', not to the public, as an anticipation of anything that might arise to protect the interest of his organization as well as his parent organization at that time.

2. That email is meant to be private, not to be shared like this. Do you even has his permission.
3. Do you even understand what is respect and royalty.

And, no, BM is not my beloved.
I am just tired hearing people is bashing each other and throw A bad mouth.

This is one the reason why Chinese Kungfu is not as successfully as others.
Too many conflict within.

[Chango]

Ancient and edited ;):cool:

This Wing chun forum is like a bunch of little women with the gossip etc... Hey do think this is where the Ng Mui story originated???!!! Where is Hendrik? We need a good ole fashion KFO reunion!!

OOPS I posted again and I said I wouldn't LOL!

[li hudson]

Yes, li hudson, Benny did both my wing chun instructors dirty, Moy Yat (now deceased) and William Chueng. Wanted to go pay Meng a visit after hearing from William Cheung what the exact particulars were - but was told not to by William Cheung.

So I respected his wishes.

But that doesn't mean I should let it go here on the internet. The guy really is a snake, and the more that people realize this, the better off they'll be - perhaps in time not to be part of the next wave of those seeking wing chun - and wind up getting screwed by Meng.

I think you should settle it directly with BM. If you were told to, then it's up to you to go or not to go. Just one 2 cent. it's really not my business to mind.....


May I ask exactly what is your relationship to Benny Meng?
He is not an enemy nor a friend. I am just tired of people bashing each other. Can we promote CHinese Martial as one whole family?



And why is it that your signature is clearly a spin-off of Hudon Li's?
What's that all about?

I am just trying to be the opposite of provocative Hudson Li. I am Li Hudson:)

[Chango]

He is not an enemy nor a friend. I am just tired of people bashing each other. Can we promote CHinese Martial as one whole family?



Nuff said !!!!!! A-man ! ::):):):D:D;)::D;);):p

[li hudson]

Ancient and edited ;):cool:

This Wing chun forum is like a bunch of little women with the gossip etc... Hey do think this is where the Ng Mui story originated???!!! Where is Hendrik? We need a good ole fashion KFO reunion!!

OOPS I posted again and I said I wouldn't LOL!

I think we should create a another thread called
Black Crane+Ermei Wing chun VS Five-color Crane+Wudang+Shaolin

LOL :)

[Hudson Li]

I believe Li Hudson is Benny Meng.

[li hudson]

I believe Li Hudson is Benny Meng.

Wrong ! You are such a provocative devil !!! :mad:

I believe Hudson Li is The Devil Himself

Li Hudson - Mr. Mind-Your-Own-Business
Hudson Li - Mr. Mind-Everyone-Business (Including their wife)

[Chango]

WHO IS HUDSON LI ???? ( followed by dramatic music)

:p

oops Li hudson LOL!

Is it Bruce Lee or Bruce Li ??!!!


Mister Han suddenly I feel like leaving your Island!!!!

Bull$hit Mr Hand Man!!

[Hudson Li]

I believe Li Hudson is Benny Meng. Typical.

[Hudson Li]

Oh yes and there is also that message of Meng saying he would beat up Orr at Seni... :eek:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well one thing is for certain. li hudson is no stranger to Benny Meng - otherwise there wouldn't be this passionate defense.

Now it seems to me that "Hudson Li" is someone's first and last name. A very Americanized version of a Chinese name. In fact, I've known people with the first name, Hudson.

So I would think that the bigger onus is on "li hudson" to correctly identify himself - and his true relationship with/to Benny Meng.

[Hudson Li]

Yes Hudson is my name and Benny-li hudson knows who I am or at least he should know because I was a student of his H.F.Y. instructor in Fortaleza and paid a part of his meals in my hometown.

Victor the message that Alex sent to me and the other students while trying to impressionate us with Meng's "courage" of challenging Robert Chu proves that you are right. that man does never speak on the others face and he badmouths his teachers, something that his Brazilian site also proves as he states he was the sole responsible for making H.F.Y. happen and says G.M. Garrett Gee stole his students and H.F.Y. was created 10 years ago.

[li hudson]

Well one thing is for certain. li hudson is no stranger to Benny Meng - otherwise there wouldn't be this passionate defense.

Now it seems to me that "Hudson Li" is someone's first and last name. A very Americanized version of a Chinese name. In fact, I've known people with the first name, Hudson.

So I would think that the bigger onus is on "li hudson" to correctly identify himself - and his true relationship with/to Benny Meng.

I know everyone name from this forum. Aside BM, I also know other figures too....Including Robert Chu, Pikachu as well as the Lawyer Wingchun.

I've identified myself as the opposite of Hudson Li. I have no relationship with BM just like with your wife/sister. If you force me to admit something that's not true, it's the same thing to admit I just have an intimate relationship with your wife, if not your girldfriend if not your sister. :) This is not serious, OK ?


However, even if one day I ever meet BM and have relationship with him, I will definitely be cautious, just like toward everyone else like robert chu for example......and you wife/gf .......:p

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes Hudson is my name and Benny-li hudson knows who I am or at least he should know because I was a student of his H.F.Y. instructor in Fortaleza and paid a part of his meals in my hometown.


***Okay, welcome to the forum, lil' benny hudson. :D

And stop making believe you're Hudson Li's alter-ego. Your (Benny Meng's) ego is already big enough. Waaay over the top. No need to try and steal someone else's "light" and make it your own. I know that this is the modus operandi you're used to - but enough is enough. :cool:

[Hudson Li]

BTW, I have no wife dude, so I would love to meet yours if you don't mind mine and her business.

Oh no! Let us not talk about wives. This thread is about H.F.Y. on youtube, Benny Meng's weird behaviour and H.F.Y.'s tales and facts.

[li hudson]

Yes Hudson is my name and Benny-li hudson knows who I am or at least he should know because I was a student of his H.F.Y. instructor in Fortaleza and paid a part of his meals in my hometown.
Are you Marcelo?




Victor the message that Alex sent to me and the other students while trying to impressionate us with Meng's "courage" of challenging Robert Chu proves that you are right. that man does never speak on the others face and he badmouths his teachers, something that his Brazilian site also proves as he states he was the sole responsible for making H.F.Y. happen and says G.M. Garrett Gee stole his students and H.F.Y. was created 10 years ago.
it's none of your business.

[li hudson]

BTW, I have no wife dude, so I would love to meet yours if you don't mind mine and her business.

Oh no! Let us not talk about wives. This thread is about H.F.Y. on youtube, Benny Meng's weird behaviour and H.F.Y.'s tales and facts.

BTW, you can meet one of mine.......after I beat up your face until your mother can not recognize you anymore......

[Hudson Li]

The two well known Marcelos live in Rio. I live in Fortaleza. But you know it, don't you lil-Benny-hudson?

[li hudson]

The two well known Marcelos live in Rio. I live in Fortaleza. But you know it, don't you lil-Benny-hudson?

I don't....why don't you tell me

[Hudson Li]

Simply because this is a thread about H.F.Y. on youtube, Benny Meng's behaviour and the tales and history of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.

What did you think about the video? Does H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tau really resemble T.W.C. Siu Nin Tau (see the guy on the left is performing section one and the guy on the right is performing section 2)? What about the light sparring?

[Ultimatewingchun]

There are some similarities between the form shown and the drills shown - and TWC, yes...but I also recognize that the guys in the vid doing the two-man drills (don't call it sparring) aren't showing anything particularly good. Quite mediocre, actually.

That's what I originally thought Chango was objecting to as regards the vid, and therefore maybe he was just trying to say that this isn't really any "quality" HFY being demoed, don't judge HFY by this, etc.

Soon realized, however, that Chango's bigger motive was in protecting Benny Meng's reputation and credibility.

LOL.

[Hudson Li]

I never met any good H.F.Y. fighter among the students I knew in Brazil. Maybe the H.F.Y. people of Rio de Janeiro fight better but that is because everybody knows that they are cross-trainers so they are not pure WingChunners, and after all they do not know more H.F.Y. than Benny Meng's representative Alex Magnos who has the videos of everything Benny Meng learned from G.M. Garrett Gee in the U.S.A. and now Benny is correcting him personally. But I must tell you that Alex is very weak, his skill is so bad that he ran more than once from the guy that represents Boztepe here in Fortaleza, and that happened before and after Benny Meng and G.M. Garrett Gee told him to intimidate the W.T. guys who went to see them in person and asked them to touch hands but they declined.

Is there any video about the T.W.C. advanced Siu Nin Tau so that I can compare it with H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tau? And what do you think of the entry technique of the guys who are doing the light sparring?

[chusauli]

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6fod4gxRdk

[chusauli]

Oh, but that's the public version of ASLT. The private version has two pheonix eye fist strikes in the 2nd section...hmmm...perhaps that is the Australian version of ASLT, that has the 2 phoenix eye strikes?

The Australian BJ is also different than the American version...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Don't know about any continental differences, Robert, as what's on that vid is also what I learned here in the U.S. from William Cheung.

Not performed particularly well, actually, but it is the same form.

[Hudson Li]

The H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tau also has a double phoenix eye.

[Ultimatewingchun]

For what it's worth, I have never seen (or heard of) any phoenix eye strikes used within the TWC Advanced SLT form.

[Hudson Li]

After checking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJrMKsTTgFM
it seems that T.W.C. Siu Nin Tau is shorter and less complex than H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tau. The animals section of H.F.Y., for exemple. But the moving sidestep faat sau I only see in H.F.Y. and T.W.C.
I can identify more similarities between H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tau and this Jee Sheen form that are not in T.W.C. and also not in Y.M. W.C.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JKfEhMmkno

This is G.M. San Lii, mine and Alex Magnos' past teacher. He claims to have learned H.F.Y. from an old Chinese called Hung Lii. His forms are similar but not the same as G.M. Garrett Gee's H.F.Y.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qhRJbStVSw

[chusauli]

Hudson,

Sifu Linda and Sifu Garry of Jee Shin WCK were former students affiliated with William Cheung...hence the similarity.

[Hendrik]

Hudson,

Sifu Linda and Sifu Garry of Jee Shin WCK were former students affiliated with William Cheung...hence the similarity.


So the Jee Shin is not related to Jee Shim of Hung Ga.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now that you're no longer associated with Garrett Gee, and I assume this because you're obviously still affiliated with Benny Meng - since you've defended him so much...

and since Meng is no longer affiliated with Gee...

and since we were always being told by all the HFY guys who've posted on this forum (including yourself) that it was Garrett Gee who didn't want videos of HFY made public...

why not post some vids now?

Like I said earlier, the vids on the first post of this thread weren't very skillful, as I'm sure you'd agree.

Here's a great opportunity to let the public see some quality HFY at work. How about it?

[chusauli]

So the Jee Shin is not related to Jee Shim of Hung Ga.

Oh, its the same characters alright...but no real relationship to the fictional Jee Shim of Hung Ga, Chi Sim Weng Chun or otherwise...

Its just a name to distinguish oneself...

[chusauli]

For what it's worth, I have never seen (or heard of) any phoenix eye strikes used within the TWC Advanced SLT form.

A version I saw from Australia had it in section 2 of ASLT. Maybe that was the private version.

[Eric_H]

What did you think about the video? Does H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tau really resemble T.W.C. Siu Nin Tau (see the guy on the left is performing section one and the guy on the right is performing section 2)? What about the light sparring?



Hey Hudson Li,

In your training and searching about the Internet you should expect to find aspects of all Wing Chun forms are going to look similar to one another. From what I've seen around it points back to the 1850's time period, before that at some point all WC came from the same source. As a HFY practitioner I recognize that TWC is most definitely a close cousin , probably much closer so in the pre-1850 timeframe.

However, when you see the lineages start to break out, there are easy to spot key differences in the Wong Wa Bo/Lueng Bik version called TWC today and the Hun Gun Biu/Hung Fa Yi version. Before getting into similarities and differences though, it is important to reiterate, TWC and HFY have not crossed in this generation. Both Grandmaster William Cheung and Grandmaster Garrett Gee have stated that they've never met. Only people who are into spreading rumors (Robert and Terrence) are trying to draw a link between the two separate systems in the past generation or two.

First lets talk just about the opening moves, I don't have a shareable clip of TWC SNT, but I found one of their Biu Gee, and I believe the openings are the same. (Phil or Victor can probably direct us to a SNT video better than google).

Take a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lH32iMe0Cw&feature=related

Now in comparison with Sifu Lambert's clip (at about 2:05) you can see the arm shapes are different. The TWC shape is more of an X, and the HFY one is more of a V. I can't really speak for TWC, Victor, can you gives us a breakdown of what the X is for? I would suspect Centerline, but I'd defer to a TWC person on that.

When a HFY practitioner does the V-like movement they are attempting to draw out the Hung Fa Yi 4-Gate Tien Yan Dei (Heaven Human Earth) concept as well as our Wing Chun Formula. There are two pieces that we use to grade ourselves at to whether or not our motions can be considered “correct” to a HFY standard.

[Eric_H]

After checking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJrMKsTTgFM
it seems that T.W.C. Siu Nin Tau is shorter and less complex than H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tau. The animals section of H.F.Y., for exemple. But the moving sidestep faat sau I only see in H.F.Y. and T.W.C.
I can identify more similarities between H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tau and this Jee Sheen form that are not in T.W.C. and also not in Y.M. W.C.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JKfEhMmkno

This is G.M. San Lii, mine and Alex Magnos' past teacher. He claims to have learned H.F.Y. from an old Chinese called Hung Lii. His forms are similar but not the same as G.M. Garrett Gee's H.F.Y.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qhRJbStVSw

After watching the advanced SNT clip a bit, I can also see a difference in just the first move. It seems that TWC is sinking the elbows out at the shoulders, probably an expression of Jiang Dai Lik (elbow sinking energy). In HFY when we sink our elbows they come in the the nipple line (1/2 way between shoulder and center). This is expressing our 5-line theory and is part of the Wing Chun Formula.

[chusauli]

Only people who are into spreading rumors (Robert and Terrence) are trying to draw a link between the two separate systems in the past generation or two.



Eric,

Spreading rumors? I'm not into spreading rumors, I'm into knowing the truth. Its a strong hypothesis which has not been proven beyond a shadow of doubt.

Please understand the difference. I'm sure other TWC people would want to know the truth as well.

[Ultimatewingchun]

A version I saw from Australia had it in section 2 of ASLT. Maybe that was the private version.

Who is doing this "private" version?
How did you manage to see it?
Can you post it?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Try this:

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/movie_viewer.asp?obj_width=320&obj_height=240&filename=images/movs/misc/gm_slt_1984.flv&filesize=

[Ultimatewingchun]

In the vid I just posted of William Cheung doing SLT...the low and high movements in the beginning trace out THE CENTRAL LINE both in the lower gates and the higher gates.

This Line conveys the exact horizontal lines in front of you (actually it's a grid that contains both horizontal and vertical points/lines)...wherein both arms can be used to the same exact distance without having to move either shoulder at all.

In other words, the parameters within which simultaneous block-and-strike can be maximized in terms of speed and economy of movement.

[Eric_H]

In the vid I just posted of William Cheung doing SLT...the low and high movements in the beginning trace out THE CENTRAL LINE both in the lower gates and the higher gates.

It conveys the exact horizontal lines in front of you (actually it's a grid that contains both horizontal and vertical points/lines)...wherein both arms can be used to the same exact distance without having to move either shoulder at all.

In other words, the parameters within which simultaneous block-and-strike can be maximized in terms of speed and economy of movement.

Hey Victor,

Thanks for posting the clip. Looking at how GM Cheung presents his hands in the low X position, what determines how high the hands should be?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Watch the vid again and you'll notice that when the hands/arms come up, the finger tips are exactly at a point that is "even" with the top of his head. That's being done on purpose. And when they go down - they go down until the elbows reach a "locked" position.

Does this answer your question?

[duende]

Now that you're no longer associated with Garrett Gee, and I assume this because you're obviously still affiliated with Benny Meng - since you've defended him so much...

and since Meng is no longer affiliated with Gee...

and since we were always being told by all the HFY guys who've posted on this forum (including yourself) that it was Garrett Gee who didn't want videos of HFY made public...

why not post some vids now?

Like I said earlier, the vids on the first post of this thread weren't very skillful, as I'm sure you'd agree.

Here's a great opportunity to let the public see some quality HFY at work. How about it?

Lot's of funny side-tracks on this thread. Been slammed at work, other-wise I'd join in.

Victor, I wholeheartedly agree with you that the "light-sparring" presented in the video is poor quality. But heck.. sparring in general should be random in the first place, so how can any pre-planned demo be sparring. So don't be too harsh on the vid. It's a demo. Although the side body tendency stuff shows some definite bad habits that need SERIOUS fixing imo. But then again, those guys are obviously beginners. So I'm not knocking them.


As for the vids from Brazil. Get real. You got a self-proclaimed HFY instructor teaching stuff he learned from Vids.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY WE HATE VIDS IN THE FIRST PLACE! And imo, one of the main reasons why GM Gee never makes them!

Learning from Vids is a joke!! Great if you want to make a fast buck, but not so great if you want to preserve any sense of true Kung Fu expression.

This is because you can never get the "Energy" factor down, and what truly is passed on is only the teaching of shapes. HOWEVER, shapes are dependent on energy upon contact, so then what you really get is MISINTERPRETATION OF BOTH SHAPES AND ENERGY. I could go on and on....

Sure... you can learn some things in vids, but NOT HFY course material!

Back to work for me...

Laters!

[Eric_H]

Watch the vid again and you'll notice that when the hands/arms come up, the finger tips are exactly at a point that is "even" with the top of his head. That's being done on purpose. And when they go down - they go down until the elbows reach a "locked" position.

Does this answer your question?

Victor,

It does, thanks.

I saw above that you had asked for further things to be shared about HFY, and since you seem to be genuine about wanting to see it, I can tell you that there's a lot more info coming soon. A lot of Hung Fa Yi history since 1850 hasn't really been presented yet, and there is a lot more on that coming down the line, along with more picture series and such to explain what we are talking about physically. I believe there are also some new books in the works as well.

Actually, if anyone is interested in some of the history beyond what I said above, there was a discussion about it on HFY108 some time ago, and can be found here:
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2510

As for the whole video thing, our GM is trying to stay true to his ancestors and present the system in the right way. In fact, before he really presented anything to the public GM Gee had to take a refuge and give up three years of his life to the Buddha. No birthday celebrations, couldn't accept any gifts, could not even have his picture taken. For what its worth, our Grandmaster is really trying to do this in the right way. Even when recently, some people decided to sell videos of Grandmaster Gee's teaching, he still took the blame on himself for not protecting the system well enough. He even cut his finger in front of a room full of people to draw blood as a penance. He's very much the real deal when it comes to how HFY comes out to the public.

This is really the first opportunity I've had to compare much of the two systems myself, there's one more thing I see as a difference. Looking at Sifu Lambert's guys (2:13ish in the clip) the guy on the right is doing pieces of the third section of Siu Nim Tao which has two different Bong sao expressions in it: the crane and the eagle. I know in the past GM Cheung made a statement that the bent wrist bong sao seen in most HK wing chun is “incorrect” and the straight wrist of TWC is “correct” based on the ability to perform a wrist lock on one vs the other.

In HFY we express both bong saos at different times for different reasons. The Crane Bong Sao (Bent Wrist) has a whole training module with it, called the Hok Bong Gong Yao Faat (Crane Wing Hard Soft method) and is typically used as more of a penetrating tool. I've seen the straight wrist (Eagle Bong) as part of Hung Fa Yi Bong/Laap Kiu Sao and it's usage seems to be more or a neutralizing nature than anything else.

[chusauli]

That message was forwarded by the past Brazilian HFY leaders to the regional representative of Fortaleza who by his turn forwarded it to me and the rest of the students. Mr. Mind-your-own-business this is how your beloved Benny Meng acts... on the others' back and placing his robotic students on the front line while he poses as the good boy.
ps, I edited this post in order to delete the email address of the tons of people to whom Benny Meng sent the message.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Benny Meng" <bennymeng@vtmuseum.org>
To: 8< 8< 8<
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:29 PM
Subject: Update on politics


> All,
>
> With all the politics that continue from Robert Chu and his ilk, the time is
> rapidly approaching for us to have prepared shooters at each school. While
> still maintaining the philosophy of not going out of our way to attack
> others we need to prepare for the possibility of one of Robert Chu's
> students showing up to challenge our Instructors.
>
> In the past, I always give the benefit of the doubt to people. I had a
> personal talk with Alan Orr and we agreed to go out of our way to stop the
> attacks but Robert Chu has undermined his own student. Alan refuses to see
> the true face of his own Sifu so all agreements are off. I will be coming
> out with everything I know about Robert Chu and what he has done.
>
> Here are the things to take away from this email:
> 1) Who is willing to train fighters to step up to the plate if a challenge
> is issued? Or has fighters ready to go?
> 2) I'm preparing myself to personally challenge Robert Chu if the situation
> is appropriate. I always lead by example.
> 3) All our members and especially our leaders should know the truth about
> Robert Chu, which I am putting together for hfy108.com. In the meantime,
> here are two examples from Robert and Alan just recently in the brand new
> year. Robert disrespected my teacher and Alan disrespected my Sigung.
>
> Master Meng
>
> =======
> Robert Chu wrote
> Let's say for example, just being facetious, I take William Cheung's forms
> and mix it up with my Gu Lao and Yip Man and other systems like Tai Ji, Xing
> Yi, Yi Quan, and Ba Gua I've studied, creating variations of the William
> Cheung forms, add some unique and ancient sounding terms, take from Weng
> Chun's bridge arm concepts, Fei Lung Fu Mun's core staff concepts, add some
> Secret society lore, mix it up with historical facts, add secret iron body
> qigong, and unique weaponry, and attribute this art to Yat Chum Dai Si and
> Tan Sao Ng, add a few bogus no-names to cover the span of 150 years between
> Wong Wah Bao and Tan Sao Ng (as it is the average joe doesn't know any
> Chinese history or martial arts as I know it), demonstrate my skills and
> charge a $30K discipleship to get the good stuff and market the hell out of
> it with some zealots... what would I be? You see, many people do things to
> make $ and a living. At the end of the day, you have to live with yourself
> and what you do. If you have no conscious and don't acknowledge truth, that
> is up to you. If you lie like that, and don't worry that you will answer to
> the ancestors, and think yourself beyond the system and the fools you are
> deceiving, then you are a megalomaniac, and care nothing for people. Heaven
> takes care of all that. It is common in Chinese culture to "Pien Lo Fan" or
> "Pien Gwai Lo" ("Trick the Barbarians") - of which I have no stomach for. I
> grew up here, but as a first generation Chinese, I don't like that. People
> are people and lies and deceit is bad. Better to be honest and tell people
> the truth.
>
> For example, we hear a lot of "new" things like Kiu Sao - Weng Chun has it,
> other branches try to emphasize it. But do you think it doesn't exist in Yip
> Man WCK? What is Tan, Bong and Fuk? Is it not a Kiu Sao? Chi Sao is really
> Chi Kiu Sao - you stick to the bridge arms, but Cantonese like to shorten
> most terms. All Cantonese and Southern fist speak of Kiu Sao, and their art
> being of "Cheung Kiu" or "Duen Kiu" type. We have multiple sayings of "Yau
> Kiu Gor Kiu", etc. My 22 concepts are "Kiu" methods. There's nothing new
> here. Just that people make a big deal out of terms.
>
> People created martial arts, it didn't fall from the sky, nor did superior
> beings create the martial arts - they simply are created by someone. WCK is
> not even a great battlefield system - it is a civilian system. If it were
> really a battlefield system it would have a strong emphasis on spear and two
> handed sword, rather than the weapons it has, and even less emphasis on
> empty hand. Also, it is too **** complicxated to learn WCK. Look at armed
> forces fighting, Krav Maga, KGB stuff - their method is based on killing
> instantly. Many WCK exponents waste too much time and not realistic at all.
>
> All of this is truly what we know. Other things, they are more speculation
> and educated guesses. In a way, I feel I am composing "Yes Virginia, there
> is a Santa Claus..." letter. I wholeheartedly want my WCK family to know
> what I know and feel about secret origins and don't want people taken in by
> charlatans.
>
> Finally, WCK is a physical art, an art based on application. More people
> have to seek out the truth in application (i.e. with pressure, under
> pressure, under unusual circumstances and attacks) - this is the "real" and
> "original" WCK. This will lead you to see if the generation you studied
> under has the real thing or not. And I have to say, even if Yip Man was your
> teacher's teacher or great grand teacher, the one that attains is the one
> who has skill. Skill is earned, not by titles, generation, ranks,
> relationship, lineage, etc., but through real practice and application. Want
> real WCK? - it's right out there under your nose. You can learn under an
> uncle or nephew, but always the one who has it, has it.
> =======
>
> =======
> Alan Orr wrote:
> The problem is...when you write a book purporting to be factual (like
> mastering kung fu)...claim to be a museum curator and historian and then
> fill your book with *evidence* that consists of little more than drawings
> that you commissoned, stills from MA films and computer generated images of
> your ancestors no one (except perhaps your own students it seems) is going
> to take you seriously....


How sad...

Please, we are all grown ups. This childishness has to stop. Life is not a kung fu movie filled with revenge. This actually shows conspiracy and very politically motivated insanity.

Its not balanced mentally. This is not a good example of how to run a martial arts organization.

Is this what the HFY organization condones? It is a shame, a disgrace.

[JPinAZ]

Robert,

You are playing games and you know it. Hudson Li admits he is not part of HFY, and it's becoming obvious that Benny is no longer a member of HFY. So, if this email from a non-HFY member (now), posted by a non-HFY member, how is anyone 'condoning it'? It has nothing to do with HFY organization. No one controls benny or hudson li.

If you have a problem with the person that wrote the email, then take that up with him. If you have a problem with who posted it here, take it up with them. If you have a problem with the content, then you'll have to take that up with yourself and your student and your childish antics.

[canglong]

originally posted by HFY secretary 6-18-2009
Thursday night, a martial artist named James Hill walked into Hung Fa Kwoon HQ, asked to touch hands with HFY wing chun representatives.To make a long story short, James has paid visits to many kung fu schools in the bay area before he came to Hung Fa Kwoon HQ, including Eddie Chong, Chris Chan and Chong Luo's Bak Mei school. He claimed he had touched hands with representatives from all of these schools, and through many years of his own fighting experiences, he wasn't too impressed with these schools. He had touched hands with their students and he could penetrate and uproot their stances very easily with his Moy Yat Ving Tsun and & Seven Star Praying Mantis background. So, James wasn't too satified with these schools and left. After a short conversation, Sifu Gee gave James permission to touch hands with four of our HFY members for the first time. James said this in front of our class: "The reason I came here is because I was looking for " real kung fu " by that I mean a place where the fundamentals aren't so easy to pass through or take so easily if you lose the ground or balance ,. How good could the rest of it be? My Sifu Lacy, recommended me to come to visit Sifu Garrett Gee. I've been searching the real kung fu for my whole life, my sifu said this to me, if you want to study the real kung fu, go to see Sifu Garrett Gee, that's why I'm here today." After this experience with HFY , I have to admit my sifu was right. Sifu Gee has the real kung fu." Later that evening, James had stayed the whole class observing Sifu Gee's teachings, at the end, James asked the permission to learn from Sifu Gee. Guess what? For the next three months, Sifu Gee has already booked traveling around the world to teach other students all over Hong Kong, China, Arizona, New York and Seatle. So, Sifu Gee told James, not that I don't want to accept you, but I have no time to teach any new students at this moment. But James insisted that he will be back to ask Sifu Gee to accept him as a student.

On a side note, that evenings class Sifu Gee had showed two versions of the wooden dummy:"the kiu sau dummy and the tan-bong-fuk dummy". Besides the subject of dummy, Sifu Gee also explained and demonstrated the differenece between Hung Fa san sau chi sau method and Hung Fa Yi system chi sau method which are two different tracks of learning experience according to Hung Gun Wui history from 1862 to 1874, and what had happened after 1874 and how it affected the HFY WC teachings to a system approached teaching. That was very interesting and intriguing to everyone, there was alot of info for everybody to digest. Anyhow, at the end, James had shared his experience with us, he said, before this experience with HFY, he thought chi sau is not for actual fighting, after Sifu Gee sharing his teachings with him, he now recongized that HFY chi sau is 100 % for fighting.

Just like Sifu Gee always say, learning kung fu is like a drop of water in your cup, after a while, you'll have enough to drink, at that moment, you'll realize what is kung fu.

originally posted by Robert Chu
Spreading rumors? I'm not into spreading rumors, I'm into knowing the truth. Its a strong hypothesis which has not been proven beyond a shadow of doubt.
Robert Chu everyone here knows you and unfortunately they also know your M.O. as a leopard never changes its spots nor do losers ever win. It would appear at times people need help finding the truth help you solely seem to have an avesion to. Robert again as usual you are just spreading rumors and providing false and or misleading information simply because it's what you do and in your own mind what you do best. People that visit the HFY headquarters with a genuine interest receive genuine answers that is a known fact. As a visitor to the headquarters you were neither genuine or sincere and all your answers pertaining to HFY are groundless because you neither train nor understand HFY.

To date no one owes you any answers or explanations as to the innner workings of HFY or any other system which in your mind you are an authority on how they are either similar or different. So though you may have your opinion stating them as fact only reveals your own self absorbed and capricious nature. Robert come down off your high horse pay reality a visit and stop stating things as fact that are clearly uninformed opinion.

[duende]

Geez guys...

Do we really have to go down this road again? :rolleyes:

And whatever happened to the "yawn" icon??

This thread was amusing and funny in it's absurdity, but now it is getting just plain drop dead boring!

Moderators?? Lock this one please. There should be forum restrictions against dead horse abuse.

[Ultimatewingchun]

duende,

I was not taking a shot at HFY as a system when I said that the "light sparring two man demo" (if you really want to call it sparring) was not very good.

I know the deal. Yeah, they were basically beginners. I get it.

But I'm serious about Chango (or somebody) putting up some HFY vids. Why not? What's the problem? If people no longer affiliated with the man who said "no vids" (Gee) want to show us some HFY - what should stop them?

And if they don't want to show the public any HFY - why not?

I just don't get it. :confused:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Eric H,

I have stated numerous times by now that I believe that both Garrett Gee and William Cheung probably learned from the same source - and therefore neither man is guilty of plagiarizing the other.

And while there are differences between the two systems (HFY & TWC)...they clearly have a great deal in common that cannot be said of HFY with any other wing chun system - and cannot be said about TWC and any other wing chun system.

Do you see where I'm going?

Now at this point in time I really don't care if either (or both) men have deliberately hid the true source of their wing chun, or if either (or both) added some things into "HFY" and "TWC"....or if they subtracted some things...or if one of them learned more than the other from the "source" I referred to earlier.

All I care about "lineage" matters is whether or not such-and-such a system works or not. In other words, I really don't care about lineage history/politics very much at all anymore.

And some vids of HFY in action by people who aren't beginners would be a good thing, imo. :cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

And I'm also beginning to smell some sort of an alliance-of-convenience between Benny Meng and Robert Chu, at this point.

Very strange, indeed...

Tennis, anyone? ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Oh, but that's the public version of ASLT. The private version has two pheonix eye fist strikes in the 2nd section...hmmm...perhaps that is the Australian version of ASLT, that has the 2 phoenix eye strikes?

The Australian BJ is also different than the American version...
BJ is the same here, OZ, or anywhere else. Two of my students were Chief Instructors in Melbourne. Sifu Delroi Flood studied in Melbourne and he learned what everyone else was taught. The forms are the same. If anyone should know it'd be myself and Keith Mazza.

[Phil Redmond]

After checking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJrMKsTTgFM
it seems that T.W.C. Siu Nin Tau is shorter and less complex than H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tau. The animals section of H.F.Y., for exemple. But the moving sidestep faat sau I only see in H.F.Y. and T.W.C.
I can identify more similarities between H.F.Y. Siu Nin Tau and this Jee Sheen form that are not in T.W.C. and also not in Y.M. W.C.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JKfEhMmkno

This is G.M. San Lii, mine and Alex Magnos' past teacher. He claims to have learned H.F.Y. from an old Chinese called Hung Lii. His forms are similar but not the same as G.M. Garrett Gee's H.F.Y.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qhRJbStVSw
The woman is doing TWC. She and her husband used to study TWC. Here's how we do the form: http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp

[zuti car]

There are several versions of a TWC forms. William changed forms over time for some reason . I do not want to discuss further about this , just want to point out that there are more then one version of the forms.

[canglong]

Victor,

It does, thanks.

I saw above that you had asked for further things to be shared about HFY, and since you seem to be genuine about wanting to see it, I can tell you that there's a lot more info coming soon. A lot of Hung Fa Yi history since 1850 hasn't really been presented yet, and there is a lot more on that coming down the line, along with more picture series and such to explain what we are talking about physically. I believe there are also some new books in the works as well.

Actually, if anyone is interested in some of the history beyond what I said above, there was a discussion about it on HFY108 some time ago, and can be found here:
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2510

As for the whole video thing, our GM is trying to stay true to his ancestors and present the system in the right way. In fact, before he really presented anything to the public GM Gee had to take a refuge and give up three years of his life to the Buddha. No birthday celebrations, couldn't accept any gifts, could not even have his picture taken. For what its worth, our Grandmaster is really trying to do this in the right way. Even when recently, some people decided to sell videos of Grandmaster Gee's teaching, he still took the blame on himself for not protecting the system well enough. He even cut his finger in front of a room full of people to draw blood as a penance. He's very much the real deal when it comes to how HFY comes out to the public.

This is really the first opportunity I've had to compare much of the two systems myself, there's one more thing I see as a difference. Looking at Sifu Lambert's guys (2:13ish in the clip) the guy on the right is doing pieces of the third section of Siu Nim Tao which has two different Bong sao expressions in it: the crane and the eagle. I know in the past GM Cheung made a statement that the bent wrist bong sao seen in most HK wing chun is “incorrect” and the straight wrist of TWC is “correct” based on the ability to perform a wrist lock on one vs the other.

In HFY we express both bong saos at different times for different reasons. The Crane Bong Sao (Bent Wrist) has a whole training module with it, called the Hok Bong Gong Yao Faat (Crane Wing Hard Soft method) and is typically used as more of a penetrating tool. I've seen the straight wrist (Eagle Bong) as part of Hung Fa Yi Bong/Laap Kiu Sao and it's usage seems to be more or a neutralizing nature than anything else.

I appreciate and agree with all that you have to say Eric.
It makes me realize even more so the importance and value of Hou Shun Sum Sou. Learning through actual experience with true proven masters that is something that can never be replaced.

[duende]

duende,

I was not taking a shot at HFY as a system when I said that the "light sparring two man demo" (if you really want to call it sparring) was not very good.

I know the deal. Yeah, they were basically beginners. I get it.

But I'm serious about Chango (or somebody) putting up some HFY vids. Why not? What's the problem? If people no longer affiliated with the man who said "no vids" (Gee) want to show us some HFY - what should stop them?

And if they don't want to show the public any HFY - why not?

I just don't get it. :confused:

Yeah I know you weren't taking shots. I was just agreeing with ya. At some point there will be some kind of video, but it's just never been a priority.

Right now, I now my Sifu is focused on a history article, as well as a constant traveling schedule to support our Kwoons here and abroad.

[duende]

I have stated numerous times by now that I believe that both Garrett Gee and William Cheung probably learned from the same source - and therefore neither man is guilty of plagiarizing the other.

And while there are differences between the two systems (HFY & TWC)...they clearly have a great deal in common that cannot be said of HFY with any other wing chun system - and cannot be said about TWC and any other wing chun system.

Do you see where I'm going?

Now at this point in time I really don't care if either (or both) men have deliberately hid the true source of their wing chun, or if either (or both) added some things into "HFY" and "TWC"....or if they subtracted some things...or if one of them learned more than the other from the "source" I referred to earlier.

All I care about "lineage" matters is whether or not such-and-such a system works or not. In other words, I really don't care about lineage history/politics very much at all anymore.


Excellent post Victor!

[Hudson Li]

I have stated numerous times by now that I believe that both Garrett Gee and William Cheung probably learned from the same source - and therefore neither man is guilty of plagiarizing the other.

I heard from Benny Meng that G.M. William Cheung learned a kind of public version of H.F.Y. from G.M. Garrett Gee's sihing, a man known as the bone breaker in H.K, so Victor you're probably right.

Duende is this told by G.M. Garrett Gee or is this a guess that Benny Meng sells as the truth?

[t_niehoff]

Eric H,

I have stated numerous times by now that I believe that both Garrett Gee and William Cheung probably learned from the same source - and therefore neither man is guilty of plagiarizing the other.


You can obviously "believe" whatever you want -- people believe all kinds of things. I prefer to draw conclusions based on evidence, things that we know (and can prove) to be true. What we do know for certain is that Yip Man taught Cheung WCK. There is no proof anyone else did. We can also see all the Yip signatures in Cheung's TWC. And there is no evidence of anyone doing anything like TWC (the forms, for example) prior to Cheung. The conclusion follows that Cheung's TWC is his creation, based on his training with Yip.

Clearly, HFY "looks" very similar to TWC. So similar, that there has to be some connection. Certainly Cheung didn't learn TWC from Garrett (Cheung's older, was doing it well before Garrett was, etc.). So where did HFY comes from?

There's no evidence of HFY existing before Garrett. But TWC existed before Garrett.



And while there are differences between the two systems (HFY & TWC)...they clearly have a great deal in common that cannot be said of HFY with any other wing chun system - and cannot be said about TWC and any other wing chun system.

Do you see where I'm going?


TWC is Yip Man based curriculum. No one can show that either TWC or HFY existed prior to Yip, or prior to Cheung.



Now at this point in time I really don't care if either (or both) men have deliberately hid the true source of their wing chun, or if either (or both) added some things into "HFY" and "TWC"....or if they subtracted some things...or if one of them learned more than the other from the "source" I referred to earlier.


I think the evidence is clear: Cheung created TWC from Yip Man WCK. Garrett took TWC and created HFY. Both men didn't want to just say they created their "systems" so they created stories to market their art.

[Eric_H]

I heard from Benny Meng that G.M. William Cheung learned a kind of public version of H.F.Y. from G.M. Garrett Gee's sihing, a man known as the bone breaker in H.K, so Victor you're probably right.

Duende is this told by G.M. Garrett Gee or is this a guess that Benny Meng sells as the truth?


I would wager that as a guess. GM Cheung stated he learned from Yip Man who taught him the Leung Bik version of WC. Since Leung Bik is a real person and others have already verified he met GM Yip at some point, that seems more likely over anything like what you wrote above.



Eric H,

I have stated numerous times by now that I believe that both Garrett Gee and William Cheung probably learned from the same source - and therefore neither man is guilty of plagiarizing the other.

And while there are differences between the two systems (HFY & TWC)...they clearly have a great deal in common that cannot be said of HFY with any other wing chun system - and cannot be said about TWC and any other wing chun system.

Do you see where I'm going?

Now at this point in time I really don't care if either (or both) men have deliberately hid the true source of their wing chun, or if either (or both) added some things into "HFY" and "TWC"....or if they subtracted some things...or if one of them learned more than the other from the "source" I referred to earlier.

All I care about "lineage" matters is whether or not such-and-such a system works or not. In other words, I really don't care about lineage history/politics very much at all anymore.

And some vids of HFY in action by people who aren't beginners would be a good thing, imo.


I hear you Victor, and you're right, they do have a lot in common. Looking at both of them, TWC and HFY both make a lot of sense to me. Both systems share a lot of what i would consider to be good wing chun values. Our history points to the differences breaking out in the 1850's timeframe. Whether you believe it or don't believe it, that's where we point to the differences beginning to form. From what I've seen, any martial arts family really only has Myth and Legend once you go back further than that.

I know in the past there was some mention of HFY HQ putting out some short video demos of a few things, but I don't know that status of that project at this time.



There's no evidence of HFY existing before Garrett. But TWC existed before Garrett.


Grandmaster Gee has been teaching since the 1970's, I don't think TWC was in the US before 1980.

[t_niehoff]

I would wager that as a guess. GM Cheung stated he learned from Yip Man who taught him the Leung Bik version of WC. Since Leung Bik is a real person and others have already verified he met GM Yip at some point, that seems more likely over anything like what you wrote above.


It is true that Leung Bik existed. However, there is no evidence that he knew or taught WCK or that he taught Yip Man. Yip Man's OWN written account of his lineage doesn't meantion Leung Bik. And several Yip seniors came forward indicating it was a story made up (by Lee Man?) to give Yip more credentials.



Grandmaster Gee has been teaching since the 1970's, I don't think TWC was in the US before 1980.

You're being intellectually dishonest. Yes, Gee was perhaps teaching martial arts in the 1970s but not WCK and not HFY.

[Phil Redmond]

It is true that Leung Bik existed. However, there is no evidence that he knew or taught WCK or that he taught Yip Man. Yip Man's OWN written account of his lineage doesn't meantion Leung Bik. And several Yip seniors came forward indicating it was a story made up (by Lee Man?) to give Yip more credentials. . . . .
So of course if these "senior's said so then it has to be the truth. :rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

So of course if these "senior's said so then it has to be the truth. :rolleyes:

Well, it is certainlyhas no less that the same level of credence as the story itself -- pure hearsay. I offered it since you can say hearsay cancels hearsay. And actually, I think it has more credence since the senior's account isn't promotional but just the opposite.

The good evidence is Yip's OWN written account of his WCK lineage (funny that if he didn't mind telling people he learned from Leung Bik, that he would leave that out of his account) and that there is no evidence that Leung Bik knew or practiced WCK.

[Ultimatewingchun]

For many years I completely believed my sifu, William Cheung's account that TWC was simply the Leung Bik version of wing chun that Yip Man learned very quietly, and that Yip decided to only pass it on to William.

I didn't find it hard to believe given William's reputation as being the premier fighter in the clan (yeah, I know that WSL people will dispute that - and I certainly don't mean to insult Wong Shun Leung, because he was really something special himself)...and also given the close relationship between Yip Man and William Cheung...(William claims to have actually spent some time living with Yip Man after getting into serious problems with his own father and leaving the house)...

but something else began to change my thinking as time went on.

While I don't doubt (as some people did) that Leung Bik ever existed, how could it be that Leung Bik had this great wing chun system in his head - and there is no trace of it anywhere?

Except Yip Man? Not one other student but Yip Man? Possible, I suppose, but not very likely, imo.

No, there had to be more to this than meets the eye.

Now, enter Garrett Gee. Without getting into any disputes about whether or not he was actually teaching people HFY back in the 1970's, the fact remains that it wasn't until the mid-1990's that HFY become "public" - via the Benny Meng PR machine - and the numerous articles that appeared in KUNG FU magazine and other places, etc.

And the now famous "Friendship" seminar, and so on. And a friend of mine (Miguel Hernandez, who studied extensively with Moy Yat after I left sifu Moy to become William Cheung's student)...telling me that he attended the seminar and HFY looks almost exactly like the TWC that I occasionally showed him)...and then I saw for myself...

the photos on the 6 page brochure of HFY that Miguel gave me, other photos of Gee that appeared in subsequent magazine articles, the numerous posts on this forum by HFY guys describing things (though irritating because seeming to be purposely esoteric)...describing things that I would not have understood so quickly had I not learned TWC (and not just the Ving Tsun I learned from Moy Yat)...what is in the MKF book, etc.

So what did it all mean?

Well first of all, William Cheung stopped teaching VT and began teaching TWC publicly back in Australia right after Yip Man's death (Yip died in December, 1972)...and there is evidence, ie.- eye witness accounts of Australian students who have attested to this)...before William Cheung went world-wide public with TWC literally 10 years later in 1982.

And btw, this occurred when an American navy man named Blaine Collins, who had a kickboxing background, was on a ship that was stationed in Australia for a few years - during which time he trained virtually every day at William Cheung's academy for those years directly under William's close supervision.

Consequently, Blaine Collins paved the way for William to come to America and start teaching. (And Blaine was the dai-sihing of William Cheung's "World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association" since it's inception in 1982 - until he decided to leave the organization at the end of 1990). And having come to know him quite well during those years, I can tell you straight up that Blaine was not only an excellent TWC man, but a terrific guy, and a superb organizer as well.

Question: Did William learn from Garrett Gee? Hardly.

So the big question became: Where did Garrett Gee learn this "HFY" system that looks so much like TWC?

Did he steal it? I think he would have to have been crazy to do that - given William Cheung's reputation as a volatile man who has had plenty of fights - including, btw, a number of altercations and "challenge" matches after he moved to Australia as a 19 year old in 1959. And there are plenty of Australian guys who can attest to that as well. All through the man's 20's and 30's. (William was 42 years old when he first went to America with TWC in the summer of 1983).

No, Garrett Gee has kept a very low profile and has always gone out of his way, it would seem, not to insult people or look for trouble. That's not his temperment. He didn't steal it. That explanation just doesn't add up. And besides, there are some things within HFY that don't really seem to exist within TWC - but that seem to be a coherent part of the system - and not something that was simply "glued on" - the way a forger/charlatan might betray himself.

Now enter another possibility: The connection between HFY and TWC is that they (it) emerged out of a secret group (organization?) that at some point went in a slightly different direction than most (if not all) of the wing chun world - and included certain other aspects of WCK not really found elsewhere.

Perhaps some came from here, perhaps there's some overlap that emerged there, perhaps a third thing from somewhere else (ie.- Weng Chun, Yuan Kay San, etc.)...the story is probably not so cut-and-dry, not so black-and-white as some people might like to pretend it is.

But the two systems are very close siblings. And the rest of the wing chun world are cousins.

[Marcelo-RJ]

All,

I've just watched the many SLT/SNT videos and, although my knowledge is so limited, the one that reminded me HFY the most is the Jee Shin one. At least, the first punch coming back and forward and the low gum sau turning into a high taan sau, I have only found in HFY and JS (as I understood, a TWC version).
Sincerely speaking, however, I cannot see more than superficial similarities between HFY and TWC - be it Cheung's or JS. When comparing those, let's say, WC streams, not only a lot of movements are different but specially the formula is obviously not found in TWC (note that this does not mean "better" or "worse", but only "different").
So I wonder whether those who say TWC and HFY come from the same recent source have seen and experienced both systems - and this is a legitimate doubt, not a provocation.
Anyways, given the intersection points between TWC and HFY, some of which aren't found in other WC streams, Victor theory sounds plausible (the source itself would not be that recent).
Thank you,

Marcelo

[JPinAZ]

Victor,

I can appreciate your critical thinking here! I agree, they (TWC/HFY) both obviously came from the same source - and clearly somewhere closer in relation than when compared to say, other YM lines, or YKS, or whatever. They both share similarities more-so then when compare to other lines. And I do agree that there are also some key differences that point to each being unique onto itself - 'specially at this point in time.

The fact is, all WC comes from one common source. And it's a fact, that source is not YM alone. And it's also a fact that at some point, things have varied, info dropped, changed, etc throughout time - throughout all the lines, that's plain to see. And it is also obviously clear HFY/TWC share more similarities between each other than when compared to other lines. And of course it's also clear they ALL share similarities to one extent or another - again, they are all WC!

So, does this mean TWC came from HFY or visa versa. Doubtul ( and to those with any inside knowledge, most obviously not). Probably it's just as simple as they both came from the same common source somewhere in the past (as did all WC) only they just share more common information than the others.

As far as the GM Gee and GM Cheung learning from one another, I think it's laughable. I have no reason to think either men would have anything to hide and both have said they've never met each other. Done deal there! Anyone trying to say otherwise is calling both men liars and has 0 class.
I think it's safe to say, the fact is, they both learned WC and both lines share similarities more than others. It's really that simple.

What's funniest of all is, both of us, while being on 'opposite sides of the fence', through experience, can see the obviousness of it all. While those having little to no expereince at all with either system still try to act like experts and think they know without a doubt what is going on and what came from where. What a joke :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

Well, it is certainlyhas no less that the same level of credence as the story itself -- pure hearsay. I offered it since you can say hearsay cancels hearsay. And actually, I think it has more credence since the senior's account isn't promotional but just the opposite.

The good evidence is Yip's OWN written account of his WCK lineage (funny that if he didn't mind telling people he learned from Leung Bik, that he would leave that out of his account) and that there is no evidence that Leung Bik knew or practiced WCK.
From what I remember YM said that he did learn from Leung Bik. And if he did or not the important thing is can some one make WC work against resisting opponents. Isn't that what you always say?

[JPinAZ]

You're being intellectually dishonest. Yes, Gee was perhaps teaching martial arts in the 1970s but not WCK and not HFY.

Wrong, you don't know a **** thing what he taught. You're being an idiot.

[Vajramusti]

Hasn't this thread exhausted itself?

joy chaudhuri

[duende]

A picture from the late seventies of Sifu teaching... there's more, but this one was just easy to find.

http://www.hungfakwoon.com/images/File0057.jpg

Take care everyone.

Alex

[li hudson]

It is true that Leung Bik existed. However, there is no evidence that he knew or taught WCK or that he taught Yip Man. Yip Man's OWN written account of his lineage doesn't meantion Leung Bik. And several Yip seniors came forward indicating it was a story made up (by Lee Man?) to give Yip more credentials.



You're being intellectually dishonest. Yes, Gee was perhaps teaching martial arts in the 1970s but not WCK and not HFY.


Hey you stupid lawyer,

Do you ever shut up and mind your own business?
Whether the story true or not, that's the story what GM Yip man told GM Cheung.
That's entirely in GM Cheung business and his organization. It has nothing to do with you.

IF a history from different lineage is not the same as yours, it doesn't means it's always fake/made up, you stupid !

I know that people like you are very dishonest, and always being a snake AND ALSO A GIRL.
But don't use your standard(image of your dis-honesty and sneaky) to judge others.... NOT EVERYONE IS BAD AS YOU ARE !! UNDERSTAND !!!!! Unless you're such an idiot !

Haven't you learn yet what your Sifu, Chu taught you. Should we ask your sifu to spank you again to make you shut up and mind your own business....

Here the reminder of your sifu teaching;


So you think if people make false claims or lie, that we should just ignore it and let them go on about their business? Who cares if someone misleads people, takes money uneer false pretenses, etc.? Is this your attitude?

More of your sifu's teaching:


Absolutely! An important lesson to learn!

There are too many conflicting stories and we should not identify with them personally, merely take out those elements of the story which can be useful.

You also show what a rational person does, as opposed to what someone who's identity is wrapped up in their "truth".

Thank you for your contribution!


and also this !!!



Continuing....

When I moved to Los Angeles in 1988, I met a Vietnamese Chinese monk at a martial arts performance. He sat next to me and asked if I learned martial arts. I told him yes, "WCK.."

He was delighted, as he was also learned in WCK. "Our lineage came from China, from a Yuen Chai Wan..."

I recognized the lineage, it was Yuen Kay Shan's brother who went to Cambodia and later Vietnam, teaching the local Wah Kiu (Overseas Chinese) there.

He asked me if I learned the Gim set?

"Gim? What Gim?"

Then he asked if I learned the Ng Ying Hei Gung (Five Animal Qigong set)?

I told him that in our lineage does not have such a thing. I explained we have Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee. He stopped to correct me, "Siu Lien Tao?" No, our first set was "Siu Nim Tao", but I clarified that "Siu Lien Tao was the old name..."

The monk was puzzled, and asked me the origins of my WCK. I told him about grandmaster Yip Man and his branch in HK. He did not know of Yip Man, as he was from Vietnam.

Finally, he asked me, "Are you sure you learned WCK?!"

I smiled, and clasped my hands in the the Buddhist salutation and said "Amitoufo!", the performance was beginning...and thus ended our conversation...

------------------------------------------------
So, I ask you, should I have thrashed the monk? Should I have insisted mine was better without the 5 animal qi gong? That we didn't learn any stupid gim set? And that he should get an ass kicking because my lineage didn't have any of his items? What would you have done? :)



and this



Yes, Terence, that is a big problem. If people can maintain an open, neutral, "higher" level of mind to listen, without bringing in emotional baggage, ego, "old" patterns, etc. a lot could be more constructive and actually help.

All criticism has a bit of truth in it, but the emotion is overbearing and gets people to react defensively or turn off to it.

As I get older, and now being a parent, I find I have to be a better example, and have to be more sensitive using proper language. It takes more brainpower to choose more appropriate words, and also, if discussing on a message board, we do not know the character of the person getting the message, so perhaps it is better that we conduct our words more carefully.

Many people who aren't aware of your straightforward style and can have a problem with it. TMA, does put things like "courtesy" and "respect" first, probably with the wisdom that if not, things will get out of hand.

Law, science, philosophy, history, politics, and medicine all do use Socratic methods to arrive at truth. Arguments can be a norm, and people in those fields take it with a grain of salt. But others outside that field and worldview can get upset and emotional.



and good advise from great wing chun practicioner;


It's what you can DO...

not the history or the his-story behind it.

Can you fight with it, for example?

Everything else is ego-pandering. One way or the other. Either by those trying to set up (make claims) about the historical lineage of "their" wing chun - or by those with some sort of vested (ego) interest in trying to tear down other peoples' lineage stories (histories/his-stories).

Two sides of one coin. I say, throw the coin into a fountain and move on.

Can you fight with your wing chun? That's what matters. Can you pass it on as an instructor? That's what matters. Can you act like a good ambassador for wing chun (ie.- be respectful to others)? That's what matters.

Can you stop "making believe" that you're really doing these things, when instead all you're really doing is looking for some "edge" on the other guy?

That's what matters, Robert.


So, if forget what your sifu taught you, read again....and again.....and again....

Speaking of which, it's such an usual that Pikachu is not here yet to promote his "HIS-story" of Black Crane++........
He must have a bone stuck on his throat or somethin'

[li hudson]

Wrong, you don't know a **** thing what he taught. You're being an idiot.

If he is not an idiot, then the name must not called Terrance, the Idiot lawyer....:)

[li hudson]

From what I remember YM said that he did learn from Leung Bik. And if he did or not the important thing is can some one make WC work against resisting opponents. Isn't that what you always say?

Phil, It's a waste of your time, space and energy dealing with such an idiot like girly Terrence....Regardless how many time anyone explain, he can never accept it if the history is not the same as his lineage's history (or at least to Pikachu's HIS-story of black crane++)

Just my 2 cents

[Phil Redmond]

A picture from the late seventies of Sifu teaching... there's more, but this one was just easy to find.

http://www.hungfakwoon.com/images/File0057.jpg

Take care everyone.

Alex
Isn't the web amazing??? :D

[LSWCTN1]

A picture from the late seventies of Sifu teaching... there's more, but this one was just easy to find.

http://www.hungfakwoon.com/images/File0057.jpg

Take care everyone.

Alex

hi,

i have seen the picture, a nd i just had a question if i may?

on his punching hand is Garrett Gee's thumb inside his closed fist?

every art that i have ever learnt disallows this - what is the reason that you practice it?

[t_niehoff]

For many years I completely believed my sifu, William Cheung's account that TWC was simply the Leung Bik version of wing chun that Yip Man learned very quietly, and that Yip decided to only pass it on to William.


Of course you believed your sifu.



I didn't find it hard to believe given William's reputation as being the premier fighter in the clan (yeah, I know that WSL people will dispute that - and I certainly don't mean to insult Wong Shun Leung, because he was really something special himself)...and also given the close relationship between Yip Man and William Cheung...(William claims to have actually spent some time living with Yip Man after getting into serious problems with his own father and leaving the house)...


I think Cheung's "reputation" was more something of a Cheung promototion. There's no doubt that Cheung had some fights, but he was never considered Yip's "premier fighter" -- that was all marketing.



but something else began to change my thinking as time went on.

While I don't doubt (as some people did) that Leung Bik ever existed, how could it be that Leung Bik had this great wing chun system in his head - and there is no trace of it anywhere?

Except Yip Man? Not one other student but Yip Man? Possible, I suppose, but not very likely, imo.

No, there had to be more to this than meets the eye.


Yeah, the "more to it" is that IT WAS A STORY that Cheung used to market himself. And it wasn't even an original story (the same sort of story appears in tai ji ciricles).



Now, enter Garrett Gee. Without getting into any disputes about whether or not he was actually teaching people HFY back in the 1970's, the fact remains that it wasn't until the mid-1990's that HFY become "public" - via the Benny Meng PR machine - and the numerous articles that appeared in KUNG FU magazine and other places, etc.

And the now famous "Friendship" seminar, and so on. And a friend of mine (Miguel Hernandez, who studied extensively with Moy Yat after I left sifu Moy to become William Cheung's student)...telling me that he attended the seminar and HFY looks almost exactly like the TWC that I occasionally showed him)...and then I saw for myself...

the photos on the 6 page brochure of HFY that Miguel gave me, other photos of Gee that appeared in subsequent magazine articles, the numerous posts on this forum by HFY guys describing things (though irritating because seeming to be purposely esoteric)...describing things that I would not have understood so quickly had I not learned TWC (and not just the Ving Tsun I learned from Moy Yat)...what is in the MKF book, etc.

So what did it all mean?


Good question. Now to answer it, look at the evidence --things we know to be true and don't speculate trying to find answers that suit you.



Well first of all, William Cheung stopped teaching VT and began teaching TWC publicly back in Australia right after Yip Man's death (Yip died in December, 1972)...and there is evidence, ie.- eye witness accounts of Australian students who have attested to this)...before William Cheung went world-wide public with TWC literally 10 years later in 1982.


Actually, if you look at Cheung's curriculum overthat time period, you will see that it began changing/evolving during this time period -- it isn't the case that one day he's doing Yip Man WCK and the next day everything is different and he's doing TWC. There was a gradual change.



And btw, this occurred when an American navy man named Blaine Collins, who had a kickboxing background, was on a ship that was stationed in Australia for a few years - during which time he trained virtually every day at William Cheung's academy for those years directly under William's close supervision.

Consequently, Blaine Collins paved the way for William to come to America and start teaching. (And Blaine was the dai-sihing of William Cheung's "World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association" since it's inception in 1982 - until he decided to leave the organization at the end of 1990). And having come to know him quite well during those years, I can tell you straight up that Blaine was not only an excellent TWC man, but a terrific guy, and a superb organizer as well.

Question: Did William learn from Garrett Gee? Hardly.

So the big question became: Where did Garrett Gee learn this "HFY" system that looks so much like TWC?


Yes, that's the question. Now, let's look at EVIDENCE. Let's look at the things we know for certain.



Did he steal it? I think he would have to have been crazy to do that - given William Cheung's reputation as a volatile man who has had plenty of fights - including, btw, a number of altercations and "challenge" matches after he moved to Australia as a 19 year old in 1959. And there are plenty of Australian guys who can attest to that as well. All through the man's 20's and 30's. (William was 42 years old when he first went to America with TWC in the summer of 1983).


This is pure speculation, not evidence. And even your speculation is nonsense. Cheung's was not going to fight anyone -- willingly. None of the "big boys" whose reputations rest on stories would. Because if we actually saw them in action for ourselves we'd then all know that they can't fight worth sh1t.



No, Garrett Gee has kept a very low profile and has always gone out of his way, it would seem, not to insult people or look for trouble. That's not his temperment. He didn't steal it. That explanation just doesn't add up. And besides, there are some things within HFY that don't really seem to exist within TWC - but that seem to be a coherent part of the system - and not something that was simply "glued on" - the way a forger/charlatan might betray himself.


More speculation and still no evidence. Garrett comes from a martial art family and has been training martial arts his entire life. He shared a school with a wing chun instructor (Chris Chan). Of course there are things in HFY that aren't part of HFY -- so what? So what if what he teaches has a "consistency" about it?



Now enter another possibility: The connection between HFY and TWC is that they (it) emerged out of a secret group (organization?) that at some point went in a slightly different direction than most (if not all) of the wing chun world - and included certain other aspects of WCK not really found elsewhere.


Here's another possiblity, maybe they were both abducted by aliens who taught them the same thing.

We can come up with all kinds of "possiblities." Instead of speculating about possibilities, how about looking at evidence?

The only WCK teacher Cheung has ever had was Yip. TWC emerged gradually over time. It has many of the Yip signatures (things Yip created or adoptedinto his curriculum). No one had EVER seen anyting that looked like TWC or HFY before Cheung. EVER.

There is no evidence that HFY existed prior to Garrett. None. Nor can we find a single HFY practitioner prior to Garrett. We don't even know who really taught Garrrett WCK. All we do KNOW is that he began teaching something that looked very much like TWC after Cheung.

All the evidence points to TWC being Cheng's creation. That being the case, how could HFY not be Garrett's creation?



Perhaps some came from here, perhaps there's some overlap that emerged there, perhaps a third thing from somewhere else (ie.- Weng Chun, Yuan Kay San, etc.)...the story is probably not so cut-and-dry, not so black-and-white as some people might like to pretend it is.

But the two systems are very close siblings. And the rest of the wing chun world are cousins.

TWC is simply Cheung's "restructuring" of Yip Man WCK. HFY is essentially TWC with more theory.

[SimonW]

If anyone from Kung Fu magazine or anywhere else for that matter took any notice of historical research with actual evidence and cross reference to back it up from people such as Tang Hao, Stanley Henning and others then HFY would never have gained any publicity of note to begin with.

It's this ridiculous attitude of some of the media to give 'benefit of the doubt' to other opinions while totally ignoring all the real research. Many of the myths perpetuated by Benny Meng and others were totally debunked in the 1930's by Tang Hao! Yet the nonsense still prevails.

There is nothing to debate about the 'history' of HFY or Benny Meng's 'research'. It can all be debunked in one fell swoop by the real historians out there. And indeed it has already.

[duende]

hi,

i have seen the picture, a nd i just had a question if i may?

on his punching hand is Garrett Gee's thumb inside his closed fist?

every art that i have ever learnt disallows this - what is the reason that you practice it?

This is ridiculous. NO, his thumb is not inside his fingers. You are just seeing things to cause trouble.

Seriously... get frickin life!

[duende]

If anyone from Kung Fu magazine or anywhere else for that matter took any notice of historical research with actual evidence and cross reference to back it up from people such as Tang Hao, Stanley Henning and others then HFY would never have gained any publicity of note to begin with.

It's this ridiculous attitude of some of the media to give 'benefit of the doubt' to other opinions while totally ignoring all the real research. Many of the myths perpetuated by Benny Meng and others were totally debunked in the 1930's by Tang Hao! Yet the nonsense still prevails.

There is nothing to debate about the 'history' of HFY or Benny Meng's 'research'. It can all be debunked in one fell swoop by the real historians out there. And indeed it has already.

Before you make such grand assumptions. Understand what is truly being debated about history here.

An article directly from HFY HQ giving much more details about our history will be released soon.

[duende]

More speculation and still no evidence. Garrett comes from a martial art family and has been training martial arts his entire life. He shared a school with a wing chun instructor (Chris Chan). Of course there are things in HFY that aren't part of HFY -- so what? So what if what he teaches has a "consistency" about it?



Here's another possiblity, maybe they were both abducted by aliens who taught them the same thing.

We can come up with all kinds of "possiblities." Instead of speculating about possibilities, how about looking at evidence?

The only WCK teacher Cheung has ever had was Yip. TWC emerged gradually over time. It has many of the Yip signatures (things Yip created or adoptedinto his curriculum). No one had EVER seen anyting that looked like TWC or HFY before Cheung. EVER.

There is no evidence that HFY existed prior to Garrett. None. Nor can we find a single HFY practitioner prior to Garrett. We don't even know who really taught Garrrett WCK. All we do KNOW is that he began teaching something that looked very much like TWC after Cheung.

All the evidence points to TWC being Cheng's creation. That being the case, how could HFY not be Garrett's creation?



TWC is simply Cheung's "restructuring" of Yip Man WCK. HFY is essentially TWC with more theory.

More Lies and more internet stalking. Terence, I've already given you proof that nullifies all your arguments here.

You just can't accept it, because you have nothing else better to do than to talk crap online.

Ask GM Chan about what you say here. He'll laugh in your face, and then smack you for being such an idiot.

In fact, students of GM Chan's from those days and now drop in from time to time just to say hi to GM Gee.

You don't know $hit about what you say here.

[SimonW]

An article directly from HFY HQ giving much more details about our history will be released soon.

There's nothing to discuss. As I said, all the historical basis that HFY bases its history on was debunked years ago. Your guys are relying on the naivety of some not to know or to have access to historical research performed by real scholars who have no affiliation to any martial arts school.

It is pretty funny that you won't accept any of this even though all the evidence and research is out there and available for you to read. As I mentioned much of what you guys spout or base your stuff on was debunked in the 30's.

The Southern Shaolin for one thing is a total myth with absolutely zero evidence. However there is evidence for it being a myth invented by the Heaven and Earth Society, possibly for recruitment purposes. Hmm, this sounds familiar...

I prefer to get my history from people who have done real research rather than reading pulp novels.

[duende]

I heard from Benny Meng that G.M. William Cheung learned a kind of public version of H.F.Y. from G.M. Garrett Gee's sihing, a man known as the bone breaker in H.K, so Victor you're probably right.

Duende is this told by G.M. Garrett Gee or is this a guess that Benny Meng sells as the truth?

NO, this is not told by GM Gee.

Personally, I am starting to believe what GM William Chueng has been saying all along.

[duende]

There's nothing to discuss. As I said, all the historical basis that HFY bases its history on was debunked years ago. Your guys are relying on the naivety of some not to know or to have access to historical research performed by real scholars who have no affiliation to any martial arts school.

It is pretty funny that you won't accept any of this even though all the evidence and research is out there and available for you to read. As I mentioned much of what you guys spout or base your stuff on was debunked in the 30's.

I prefer to get my history from people who have done real research rather than reading pulp novels.

You don't know me, so don't make assumptions on what I read or what I believe.

I come from a family of academics, with a university history professor for a sister. So I know what REAL research is!

Your knee jerk reaction here is simply unfounded. Understand what our oral history is before you get yourself all worked up.

[SimonW]

So I know what REAL research is!

Quite clearly you don't if there is any mention of a Southern Shaolin Temple in it anywhere! Does having a family of academics mean that you are automatically one also? Again, clearly not if your 'oral' history continues to spread the myth of the Southern Shaolin Temple.

The fact that you use the word 'believe' is telling. We're not talking about religion here.


You don't know me, so don't make assumptions on what I read or what I believe.

Scientology Mk2?

Although I do accept that as its history is debunked over and over the HFY people will modify things to appear more legitimate. After all, nothing should stop the money making machine eh?

[li hudson]

Of course you believed your sifu.




Yeah, the "more to it" is that IT WAS A STORY that Cheung used to market himself. And it wasn't even an original story (the same sort of story appears in tai ji ciricles).

.



Hey you stupid lawyer,

Do you ever shut up and mind your own business?
Whether the story true or not, that's the story what GM Yip man told GM Cheung.
That's entirely in GM Cheung business and his organization. It has nothing to do with you.

IF a history from different lineage is not the same as yours, it doesn't means it's always fake/made up, you stupid !

I know that people like you are very dishonest, and always being a snake AND ALSO A GIRL.
But don't use your standard(image of your dis-honesty and sneaky) to judge others.... NOT EVERYONE IS BAD AS YOU ARE !! UNDERSTAND !!!!! Unless you're such an idiot !

Haven't you learn yet what your Sifu, Chu taught you. Should we ask your sifu to spank you again to make you shut up and mind your own business....

Here the reminder of your sifu teaching;


So you think if people make false claims or lie, that we should just ignore it and let them go on about their business? Who cares if someone misleads people, takes money uneer false pretenses, etc.? Is this your attitude?

More of your sifu's teaching:


Absolutely! An important lesson to learn!

There are too many conflicting stories and we should not identify with them personally, merely take out those elements of the story which can be useful.

You also show what a rational person does, as opposed to what someone who's identity is wrapped up in their "truth".

Thank you for your contribution!


and also this !!!



Continuing....

When I moved to Los Angeles in 1988, I met a Vietnamese Chinese monk at a martial arts performance. He sat next to me and asked if I learned martial arts. I told him yes, "WCK.."

He was delighted, as he was also learned in WCK. "Our lineage came from China, from a Yuen Chai Wan..."

I recognized the lineage, it was Yuen Kay Shan's brother who went to Cambodia and later Vietnam, teaching the local Wah Kiu (Overseas Chinese) there.

He asked me if I learned the Gim set?

"Gim? What Gim?"

Then he asked if I learned the Ng Ying Hei Gung (Five Animal Qigong set)?

I told him that in our lineage does not have such a thing. I explained we have Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee. He stopped to correct me, "Siu Lien Tao?" No, our first set was "Siu Nim Tao", but I clarified that "Siu Lien Tao was the old name..."

The monk was puzzled, and asked me the origins of my WCK. I told him about grandmaster Yip Man and his branch in HK. He did not know of Yip Man, as he was from Vietnam.

Finally, he asked me, "Are you sure you learned WCK?!"

I smiled, and clasped my hands in the the Buddhist salutation and said "Amitoufo!", the performance was beginning...and thus ended our conversation...

------------------------------------------------
So, I ask you, should I have thrashed the monk? Should I have insisted mine was better without the 5 animal qi gong? That we didn't learn any stupid gim set? And that he should get an ass kicking because my lineage didn't have any of his items? What would you have done? :)



and this



Yes, Terence, that is a big problem. If people can maintain an open, neutral, "higher" level of mind to listen, without bringing in emotional baggage, ego, "old" patterns, etc. a lot could be more constructive and actually help.

All criticism has a bit of truth in it, but the emotion is overbearing and gets people to react defensively or turn off to it.

As I get older, and now being a parent, I find I have to be a better example, and have to be more sensitive using proper language. It takes more brainpower to choose more appropriate words, and also, if discussing on a message board, we do not know the character of the person getting the message, so perhaps it is better that we conduct our words more carefully.

Many people who aren't aware of your straightforward style and can have a problem with it. TMA, does put things like "courtesy" and "respect" first, probably with the wisdom that if not, things will get out of hand.

Law, science, philosophy, history, politics, and medicine all do use Socratic methods to arrive at truth. Arguments can be a norm, and people in those fields take it with a grain of salt. But others outside that field and worldview can get upset and emotional.



and good advise from great wing chun practicioner;


It's what you can DO...

not the history or the his-story behind it.

Can you fight with it, for example?

Everything else is ego-pandering. One way or the other. Either by those trying to set up (make claims) about the historical lineage of "their" wing chun - or by those with some sort of vested (ego) interest in trying to tear down other peoples' lineage stories (histories/his-stories).

Two sides of one coin. I say, throw the coin into a fountain and move on.

Can you fight with your wing chun? That's what matters. Can you pass it on as an instructor? That's what matters. Can you act like a good ambassador for wing chun (ie.- be respectful to others)? That's what matters.

Can you stop "making believe" that you're really doing these things, when instead all you're really doing is looking for some "edge" on the other guy?

That's what matters, Robert.


So, if forget what your sifu taught you, read again....and again.....and again....

[li hudson]

Actually, if you look at Cheung's curriculum overthat time period, you will see that it began changing/evolving during this time period -- it isn't the case that one day he's doing Yip Man WCK and the next day everything is different and he's doing TWC. There was a gradual change.




Did your Mom drop you from third floor when you're an infant, because you are such an idiot with no respect to other lineage.

So what if he changed the curriculum over the time. Almost every instructors does. IT'S CALLED REVISING after knowing what works and don't for their student.

Even GM Yip Man revised his curriculum too.

Once again,



Do you ever shut up and mind your own business?


IF a history from different lineage is not the same as yours, it doesn't means it's always fake/made up, you stupid !

I know that people like you are very dishonest, and always being a snake AND ALSO A GIRL.
But don't use your standard(image of your dis-honesty and sneaky) to judge others.... NOT EVERYONE IS BAD AS YOU ARE !! UNDERSTAND !!!!! Unless you're such an idiot !

Haven't you learn yet what your Sifu, Chu taught you. Should we ask your sifu to spank you again to make you shut up and mind your own business....

Here the reminder of your sifu teaching;


So you think if people make false claims or lie, that we should just ignore it and let them go on about their business? Who cares if someone misleads people, takes money uneer false pretenses, etc.? Is this your attitude?

More of your sifu's teaching:


Absolutely! An important lesson to learn!

There are too many conflicting stories and we should not identify with them personally, merely take out those elements of the story which can be useful.

You also show what a rational person does, as opposed to what someone who's identity is wrapped up in their "truth".

Thank you for your contribution!


and also this !!!



Continuing....

When I moved to Los Angeles in 1988, I met a Vietnamese Chinese monk at a martial arts performance. He sat next to me and asked if I learned martial arts. I told him yes, "WCK.."

He was delighted, as he was also learned in WCK. "Our lineage came from China, from a Yuen Chai Wan..."

I recognized the lineage, it was Yuen Kay Shan's brother who went to Cambodia and later Vietnam, teaching the local Wah Kiu (Overseas Chinese) there.

He asked me if I learned the Gim set?

"Gim? What Gim?"

Then he asked if I learned the Ng Ying Hei Gung (Five Animal Qigong set)?

I told him that in our lineage does not have such a thing. I explained we have Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee. He stopped to correct me, "Siu Lien Tao?" No, our first set was "Siu Nim Tao", but I clarified that "Siu Lien Tao was the old name..."

The monk was puzzled, and asked me the origins of my WCK. I told him about grandmaster Yip Man and his branch in HK. He did not know of Yip Man, as he was from Vietnam.

Finally, he asked me, "Are you sure you learned WCK?!"

I smiled, and clasped my hands in the the Buddhist salutation and said "Amitoufo!", the performance was beginning...and thus ended our conversation...

------------------------------------------------
So, I ask you, should I have thrashed the monk? Should I have insisted mine was better without the 5 animal qi gong? That we didn't learn any stupid gim set? And that he should get an ass kicking because my lineage didn't have any of his items? What would you have done? :)



and this



Yes, Terence, that is a big problem. If people can maintain an open, neutral, "higher" level of mind to listen, without bringing in emotional baggage, ego, "old" patterns, etc. a lot could be more constructive and actually help.

All criticism has a bit of truth in it, but the emotion is overbearing and gets people to react defensively or turn off to it.

As I get older, and now being a parent, I find I have to be a better example, and have to be more sensitive using proper language. It takes more brainpower to choose more appropriate words, and also, if discussing on a message board, we do not know the character of the person getting the message, so perhaps it is better that we conduct our words more carefully.

Many people who aren't aware of your straightforward style and can have a problem with it. TMA, does put things like "courtesy" and "respect" first, probably with the wisdom that if not, things will get out of hand.

Law, science, philosophy, history, politics, and medicine all do use Socratic methods to arrive at truth. Arguments can be a norm, and people in those fields take it with a grain of salt. But others outside that field and worldview can get upset and emotional.



and good advise from great wing chun practicioner;


It's what you can DO...

not the history or the his-story behind it.

Can you fight with it, for example?

Everything else is ego-pandering. One way or the other. Either by those trying to set up (make claims) about the historical lineage of "their" wing chun - or by those with some sort of vested (ego) interest in trying to tear down other peoples' lineage stories (histories/his-stories).

Two sides of one coin. I say, throw the coin into a fountain and move on.

Can you fight with your wing chun? That's what matters. Can you pass it on as an instructor? That's what matters. Can you act like a good ambassador for wing chun (ie.- be respectful to others)? That's what matters.

Can you stop "making believe" that you're really doing these things, when instead all you're really doing is looking for some "edge" on the other guy?

That's what matters, Robert.


So, if forget what your sifu taught you, read again....and again.....and again....

[li hudson]

Here's another possiblity, maybe they were both abducted by aliens who taught them the same thing.

We can come up with all kinds of "possiblities." Instead of speculating about possibilities, how about looking at evidence?

The only WCK teacher Cheung has ever had was Yip. TWC emerged gradually over time. It has many of the Yip signatures (things Yip created or adoptedinto his curriculum). No one had EVER seen anyting that looked like TWC or HFY before Cheung. EVER.

There is no evidence that HFY existed prior to Garrett. None. Nor can we find a single HFY practitioner prior to Garrett. We don't even know who really taught Garrrett WCK. All we do KNOW is that he began teaching something that looked very much like TWC after Cheung.

All the evidence points to TWC being Cheng's creation. That being the case, how could HFY not be Garrett's creation?

TWC is simply Cheung's "restructuring" of Yip Man WCK. HFY is essentially TWC with more theory.

When both TWC and HFY weren't being brought out the publics, it was their choices......it was the decisions they(GM Gee, GM Cheung, as well as all of their Forefather) made. When they do decice to bring it up there are pros and cons;

Pros: To protect the system by ensuring it's survival in the hand of next generation and to find successor.

Cons: Dealing with an idiot like yourself that always thinks every other lineage must be fake or made up if it doesn't share a same history with your lineage or at least Pikachu's HIS-story of Black Crane++.


Besides,

Do you ever shut up and mind your own business?
Whether the story true or not, that's the story what GM Yip man told GM Cheung.
That's entirely in GM Cheung business and his organization. It has nothing to do with you.

This applies to GM Gee oral history too. It's none of your business !!!!

IF a history from different lineage is not the same as yours, it doesn't means it's always fake/made up, you stupid !

I know that people like you are very dishonest, and always being a snake AND ALSO A GIRL.
But don't use your standard(image of your dis-honesty and sneaky) to judge others.... NOT EVERYONE IS BAD AS YOU ARE !! UNDERSTAND !!!!! Unless you're such an idiot !

Haven't you learn yet what your Sifu, Chu taught you. Should we ask your sifu to spank you again to make you shut up and mind your own business....

Here the reminder of your sifu teaching;


So you think if people make false claims or lie, that we should just ignore it and let them go on about their business? Who cares if someone misleads people, takes money uneer false pretenses, etc.? Is this your attitude?

More of your sifu's teaching:


Absolutely! An important lesson to learn!

There are too many conflicting stories and we should not identify with them personally, merely take out those elements of the story which can be useful.

You also show what a rational person does, as opposed to what someone who's identity is wrapped up in their "truth".

Thank you for your contribution!


and also this !!!



Continuing....

When I moved to Los Angeles in 1988, I met a Vietnamese Chinese monk at a martial arts performance. He sat next to me and asked if I learned martial arts. I told him yes, "WCK.."

He was delighted, as he was also learned in WCK. "Our lineage came from China, from a Yuen Chai Wan..."

I recognized the lineage, it was Yuen Kay Shan's brother who went to Cambodia and later Vietnam, teaching the local Wah Kiu (Overseas Chinese) there.

He asked me if I learned the Gim set?

"Gim? What Gim?"

Then he asked if I learned the Ng Ying Hei Gung (Five Animal Qigong set)?

I told him that in our lineage does not have such a thing. I explained we have Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee. He stopped to correct me, "Siu Lien Tao?" No, our first set was "Siu Nim Tao", but I clarified that "Siu Lien Tao was the old name..."

The monk was puzzled, and asked me the origins of my WCK. I told him about grandmaster Yip Man and his branch in HK. He did not know of Yip Man, as he was from Vietnam.

Finally, he asked me, "Are you sure you learned WCK?!"

I smiled, and clasped my hands in the the Buddhist salutation and said "Amitoufo!", the performance was beginning...and thus ended our conversation...

------------------------------------------------
So, I ask you, should I have thrashed the monk? Should I have insisted mine was better without the 5 animal qi gong? That we didn't learn any stupid gim set? And that he should get an ass kicking because my lineage didn't have any of his items? What would you have done? :)



and this



Yes, Terence, that is a big problem. If people can maintain an open, neutral, "higher" level of mind to listen, without bringing in emotional baggage, ego, "old" patterns, etc. a lot could be more constructive and actually help.

All criticism has a bit of truth in it, but the emotion is overbearing and gets people to react defensively or turn off to it.

As I get older, and now being a parent, I find I have to be a better example, and have to be more sensitive using proper language. It takes more brainpower to choose more appropriate words, and also, if discussing on a message board, we do not know the character of the person getting the message, so perhaps it is better that we conduct our words more carefully.

Many people who aren't aware of your straightforward style and can have a problem with it. TMA, does put things like "courtesy" and "respect" first, probably with the wisdom that if not, things will get out of hand.

Law, science, philosophy, history, politics, and medicine all do use Socratic methods to arrive at truth. Arguments can be a norm, and people in those fields take it with a grain of salt. But others outside that field and worldview can get upset and emotional.



and good advise from great wing chun practicioner;


It's what you can DO...

not the history or the his-story behind it.

Can you fight with it, for example?

Everything else is ego-pandering. One way or the other. Either by those trying to set up (make claims) about the historical lineage of "their" wing chun - or by those with some sort of vested (ego) interest in trying to tear down other peoples' lineage stories (histories/his-stories).

Two sides of one coin. I say, throw the coin into a fountain and move on.

Can you fight with your wing chun? That's what matters. Can you pass it on as an instructor? That's what matters. Can you act like a good ambassador for wing chun (ie.- be respectful to others)? That's what matters.

Can you stop "making believe" that you're really doing these things, when instead all you're really doing is looking for some "edge" on the other guy?

That's what matters, Robert.


So, if forget what your sifu taught you, read again....and again.....and again....

[li hudson]

If anyone from Kung Fu magazine or anywhere else for that matter took any notice of historical research with actual evidence and cross reference to back it up from people such as Tang Hao, Stanley Henning and others then HFY would never have gained any publicity of note to begin with.

It's this ridiculous attitude of some of the media to give 'benefit of the doubt' to other opinions while totally ignoring all the real research. Many of the myths perpetuated by Benny Meng and others were totally debunked in the 1930's by Tang Hao! Yet the nonsense still prevails.

There is nothing to debate about the 'history' of HFY or Benny Meng's 'research'. It can all be debunked in one fell swoop by the real historians out there. And indeed it has already.

Chinese history is always full of myth. Some are true, some are not.
That's called History!

History is always about the which side of the story is being told. simply as that.

Don't even talk about whether a 300-400 years old story is valid or not. Compared to something more 'recent', such as the assassination of Kennedy, what was considered to be the truth. No one can know the truth about Kennedy's assassination that is not that long ago......what about something dated 300-400 years ago.....Moreover, it has a big element of secrecy since burning of temple as well as secret societies.


What's more important is that sometime the history/legends of certain lineage itself become the 'learning'. There's a moral history that sometime need to be learned. But of course, it's hard for some one like you to understand.......especially you're not even Chinese.

AND STOP TELLING THE KUNGFU MAGAZINE WHAT TO DO. It's none of your business !

[li hudson]

There's nothing to discuss. As I said, all the historical basis that HFY bases its history on was debunked years ago. Your guys are relying on the naivety of some not to know or to have access to historical research performed by real scholars who have no affiliation to any martial arts school.

It is pretty funny that you won't accept any of this even though all the evidence and research is out there and available for you to read. As I mentioned much of what you guys spout or base your stuff on was debunked in the 30's.



The one that can not 'accept' is actually you.
There are many different lineage of WCK, but when their history is not the same as yours, you think it must be a myth that need to be debunked.

What about some respect toward their forefather of the system.

[li hudson]

The Southern Shaolin for one thing is a total myth with absolutely zero evidence. However there is evidence for it being a myth invented by the Heaven and Earth Society, possibly for recruitment purposes. Hmm, this sounds familiar...



Even there's no single evidence ad everything is all oral history.

FYI, there are hundreds of Chinese MA style that 'acknowledge' this events of southern shaolin burning . In fact, there are many system that traced their lineage back to this Southern Shaolin in Fukkien, many are not even WCK !!!

SImply because you disagree, it does not mean all of those systems including the non-wck are all fake, myth or made up......

Do you understand the word of RESPECT toward the forefather of those system

[li hudson]

I prefer to get my history from people who have done real research rather than reading pulp novels.

That's your choice. And if you learn or not learn is also your choice. Keep it to yourself !

But saying that some lineage of Chinese Martial Arts are fake/made up/myth that need to be debunked, is very DISRESPECTFUL!

Moreover, it's none of your xxxxxxx business !!!

[t_niehoff]

Chinese history is always full of myth. Some are true, some are not.
That's called History!

History is always about the which side of the story is being told. simply as that.


Myth is NOT history. Myth is make-believe. History is fact. Those facts may be slanted (from the winner's perspective) but history really happened. Myth did not really happen.

Some of these myths are quite old, and others were made up recently.

Does it matter?

Only if a peson is concerned with what is really true or not.

[li hudson]

Myth is NOT history. Myth is make-believe. History is fact. Those facts may be slanted (from the winner's perspective) but history really happened. Myth did not really happen.

Some of these myths are quite old, and others were made up recently.

Does it matter?

Only if a peson is concerned with what is really true or not.


If it matters to you, then keep it to yourself.

Don't badmouth other GM and other lineage by calling them fake or made up, simply because their history is not the same as yours or at least as Pikachu's HIS-story of Black Crane++

[t_niehoff]

Even there's no single evidence ad everything is all oral history.


What people call "oral history" are legends and myths. They are not genuine history.

When we are concerned about truth, we need to consider what the evidence is.

In terms of HFY and TWC: there is NO evidence of anything looking like TWC or HFY existing prior to William Cheung. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. People can speculate, they can imagine, they can propose all kinds of possiblities, but if you are concerned with being rational (which bases its conclusions on evidence) then all you are left with is that there is no evidence of anything like TWC/HFY exisiting prior to TWC. And no one can produce any.

No one can produce any evidence of a lightbulb before Edison, no one can produce any evidence of the telephone before Bell, no one can produce any evidence of JKD before Bruce, no one can produce any evidence of BJJ before the Gracies, etc.

Where did TWC come from? Where did HFY come from? The only evidence we have is that there is no evidence it existed prior to Cheung.

Of course, there is evidence for every other legitimate lineage of WCK except TWC/HFY.



FYI, there are hundreds of Chinese MA style that 'acknowledge' this events of southern shaolin burning . In fact, there are many system that traced their lineage back to this Southern Shaolin in Fukkien, many are not even WCK !!!


Firstly, lots of TCMAs have stories about the burning of the Northern Temple.
Secondly, there are not "hundreds of Chinese MA styles that 'acknowledge' this events of southern shaolin burning." If so, please list them.
Thirdly, so what if lots of TCMAs have similar myths? That isn't good evidence that the event really occurred.



SImply because you disagree, it does not mean all of those systems including the non-wck are all fake, myth or made up......


No, it doesn't. But, we are still left with the FACT that there is no evidence of anything looking like TWC/HFY existing prior to Cheung.



Do you understand the word of RESPECT toward the forefather of those system

That is precisely the sort of attitude that stops critical inquiry, which stops people from looking for the truth. Don't ask those sorts of questions, don't think along those lines, because it makes people look bad.

[SimonW]

Chinese history is always full of myth. Some are true, some are not.
That's called History!

History is always about the which side of the story is being told. simply as that

No it isn't I'm afraid. History is made of facts, not heresay. Like I said, people like Stanley Henning have the hard evidence and cross references to support their writings, as did Tang Hao.


Even there's no single evidence ad everything is all oral history.

Again, totally false. There is a great deal of documentation that dates back a very long time. It is just that people who have a marketing plan or who do not have the ability because of the complex nature of it ignore it or are not aware of it. Dedicated Chinese historians however are.


FYI, there are hundreds of Chinese MA style that 'acknowledge' this events of southern shaolin burning . In fact, there are many system that traced their lineage back to this Southern Shaolin in Fukkien, many are not even WCK !!!

That doesn't make them correct. The Chinese can be notoriously ignorant of their own history, and originally it took the pioneering research of Tang Hao to put a lot of perpetuated myths to bed.

http://Seinenkai.com/articles/henning/mythsofshaolin.pdf
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/china_review_international/v006/6.2henning.pdf
http://Seinenkai.com/articles/henning/politicallycorrect.pdf

[t_niehoff]

If it matters to you, then keep it to yourself.

Don't badmouth other GM and other lineage by calling them fake or made up, simply because their history is not the same as yours or at least as Pikachu's HIS-story of Black Crane++


If the truth matters to me, then keep the truth to myself?

I think that should end the thread. Because it pretty much sums it up.

[li hudson]

If the truth matters to me, then keep the truth to myself?

I think that should end the thread. Because it pretty much sums it up.

Yep.
The final point is MIND your own business !
If it's not yours, don't touch it...........

[li hudson]

No it isn't I'm afraid. History is made of facts, not heresay. Like I said, people like Stanley Henning have the hard evidence and cross references to support their writings, as did Tang Hao.



Again, totally false. There is a great deal of documentation that dates back a very long time. It is just that people who have a marketing plan or who do not have the ability because of the complex nature of it ignore it or are not aware of it. Dedicated Chinese historians however are.



That doesn't make them correct. The Chinese can be notoriously ignorant of their own history, and originally it took the pioneering research of Tang Hao to put a lot of perpetuated myths to bed.

http://Seinenkai.com/articles/henning/mythsofshaolin.pdf
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/china_review_international/v006/6.2henning.pdf
http://Seinenkai.com/articles/henning/politicallycorrect.pdf

Well, that's the choice that you make.
Keep worrying and debating all about histories of every WCK lineage.

While others practice and develop their skills....
It's not the lineage or the history(true or not true) that will save you in real life threatening situation. But it's your skills.

Once again, mind your own business, and have respect for others before some one else 'step up' to show you and how respect others.


Don't develop your 'keyboard kungfu fighting', but your real skill.
Otherwise, ending up like Terrence skill;


I have to apologize to Terence Niehoff. I've always accused him of constantly challenging other people to post some vids of their serious martials arts endeavors - while he, Terence, was unwilling to do so himself.

But I just found this vid of Terence and the guys he trains with on youtube. So I'm wrong about that.

Sorry, Terence.

But anyway, WCK guys and gals, here it is. Terence is the first guy, and the rest are his training partners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5SaNBjLhg&NR=1


sorry Terrence....can't help it....but you are so pathetic !!!

[duende]

Quite clearly you don't if there is any mention of a Southern Shaolin Temple in it anywhere! Does having a family of academics mean that you are automatically one also? Again, clearly not if your 'oral' history continues to spread the myth of the Southern Shaolin Temple.

The fact that you use the word 'believe' is telling. We're not talking about religion here.


Actually, I've not only a masters and two bachelor's degrees under my belt, but have taught undergraduate courses in the past. So it wouldn't be too far a stretch to consider myself an academic. Regardless, I know what real research entails.

As for my usage of the word "believe"... it was in reference to your post regarding myths and therefore completely accurate. So get over yourself.




Scientology Mk2?

Although I do accept that as its history is debunked over and over the HFY people will modify things to appear more legitimate. After all, nothing should stop the money making machine eh?

History debunked? In fact it appears more and more chunners are siding with our history every day. You'd be surprise how many WC people will now tell you that they do not believe the Ng Mui myth a$$hole. On top of that, you now have Hendrik and Robert agreeing with us in regards to there being a relationship between the Heaven Earth Society and Hung Mun and the history of WING CHUN. We argue over differences as to what role they played and where... which is much different then what you suggest.

So again stop making assumptions and get off your high horse.

As for a money machine? Please tell me what the hell you are talking about. On the contrary, my Sifu has been offered lots of money to make videos but never has. There is no money machine.

You are confusing one man's business model with our HFYWC lineage. They are NOT the same thing.

Besides, like it or not, Benny has every right to market anything he wants to. We may not always agree with it, but it is a free country.

As for the Scientology comment. Everything you else you said was just ignorant, but calling me a Scientologist crosses the line! FUK you and FUK L RON HUBBARD!

[SimonW]

Once again, mind your own business, and have respect for others before some one else 'step up' to show you and how respect others.

LOL! So commenting on historical research has something to do with being able to fight? Good God, comments like that are the reason why research into martial arts is so lax.

Commenting on genuine historical research by extremely highly respected researchers has nothing at all to do with disrespecting anyone. Perhaps though you think that it does because it destroys many notions that you have.


More and more WC people will now tell you that they do not believe the Ng Mui myth a$$hole.

I'm glad to see that you can remain so calm and collective. It is funny that they are only just starting to discount Ng Mui because if they had looked into it they would have found research that pretty much disproved her existence long ago.


you now have Hendrik and Robert agreeing with us in regards to the relationship between the Heaven Earth Society and Hung Mun and the history of WING CHUN.

Obviously the vein on the side of your head has grown to such proportions that you are incapable of reading what I said. I didn't pass comment on the connection between the Heaven and Earth Society and Wing Chun. However I did make mention of research by Stanley Henning and many others stating that Southern Shaolin Temple was an invention of the Heaven and Earth Society, along with the Ng Mui legend.

As Henning points out there is a parallel between that story and a vignette called Wu Ji from a popular novel called "Strange Tales from the Studio of Small Talk"(1680). In other words as per a lot of martial myths they came from pulp novels and embedded themselves as fact over time.

In fact, could you tell me which articles and which parts of Stanley Henning's writing you disagree with? Also Can you give me your evidence for disproving Tang Hao's thorough research? Do you even know who these people are?


As for the Scientology comment. Everything you else you said was just ignorant, but calling me a Scientologist crosses the line! FUK you and FUK L RON HUBBARD!

Have you tried medication for your temper?

[JPinAZ]

No one can produce any evidence of a lightbulb before Edison, no one can produce any evidence of the telephone before Bell, no one can produce any evidence of JKD before Bruce, no one can produce any evidence of BJJ before the Gracies, etc.

You are a dam idiot, no wonder you couldn't understand how to make your WC work!

No evidence of a telephone before Bell? What about Elisha Gray? Or, ever hear of Philipp Reis? How about Bourseul?
And the light bulb, what about Joseph Wilson Swan? Or before him, Sir Humphry Davy? and Frederick de Moleyns?

You are an idiot, this is the best you have? This is your argument for 'proof'??
You must be the worst lawyer on the planet! That must be why you continue to defend druggies, rapists and murderers - you know you're a lousy lawyer and have no chance of winning, so you just get the best deal you can for the obviously guilty. And the proof shines through here as well with every post you make! :rolleyes:

[CHS]

JPinAZ said:

"..and it's becoming obvious that Benny is no longer a member of HFY..."

Just for my curiousity, Sifu BM is a disciple of Master Gee and it is listed on the Hungfakwoon website. If Sifu Meng is no longer a member of HFY, what does the BM-Gee discipleship mean here?

Can HFY guys help to clarify?

CHS

[li hudson]

You are a dam idiot, no wonder you couldn't understand how to make your WC work!

No evidence of a telephone before Bell? What about Elisha Gray? Or, ever hear of Philipp Reis? How about Bourseul?
And the light bulb, what about Joseph Wilson Swan? Or before him, Sir Humphry Davy? and Frederick de Moleyns?

You are an idiot, this is the best you have? This is your argument for 'proof'??
You must be the worst lawyer on the planet! That must be why you continue to defend druggies, rapists and murderers - you know you're a lousy lawyer and have no chance of winning, so you just get the best deal you can for the obviously guilty. And the proof shines through here as well with every post you make! :rolleyes:

Say Amen to that.

Terrence is an idiot lawyer, his mom dropped him when he was an infant.....:eek:

[tigershorty]

not sure I' m down with all the name calling but... as a hung fa yi student, ill say this.

pertaining to the video

i've never done the form like that. it looked like it was yip man mixed with some hung fa yi stuff. i don't necessarily see a problem with that, i guess..but i've never been shown it that way. i won't make assumptions to why they were doing it that way, altho there could be a lot.

the sparring was sloppy, but you know, whatever. i don't know who was in the audience or what the skill level or what they were going for was.

sounded like a general sales pitch to some young teens and that's about all i'd take it for.

as for this whole HFY history thing...whether you want to get into it or not, outsiders should know students arent forced to learn about it, its not pushed on us at all, it's simply interesting to some and they like to know more about their lineage. i wouldn't let it step on your toes in anyway, everyone seems to mean well. i could go either way on the argument if i really wanted to, but i'm no academic, scholar or historian.
but going to class, we just learn wing chun, break a good sweat, have some good laughs, do some serious training and then go home.

wing chun seems to attract scientific/artistic minded people. i suppose it's natural for these kind of debates to happen, but i think it's important to remember it's better to be a good person than a good fighter.

[JPinAZ]

I maybe have mis-spoke here.

It is true, Benny Meng is a disciple of HFY lineage. In traditional kung fu culture, once someone is a disciple through Bai Si, they are always a disciple. This bond is for life once made (as I understand). So, Benny Meng would still be a disciple of HFY. And yes, as such, Benny Meng is still a member of HFY. Also, as far as I know, GM Gee has never kicked anyone out of the lineage.

On another note, Benny Meng is also my sigung. I no longer recieve any training from him, nor do I follow any of his teaching methods or buisness models. But, in a traditional sense, he still is and will always be my 'sigung'.

Speaking of buisness models and teaching methods. It is probably obvious to some that Benny Meng has taken a different approach in these senses. And, I personally do not really identify with, nor follow, these methods. But, that doesn't change the fact that Benny Meng Bai Si'd to the HFY lineage, nor does it change the fact that he was a student and teach of HFY for the past 10 years. These are 2 different things (Bai Si and buisness model/teaching methods). And it still doesn't change the fact that he is my sigung.

[Hudson Li]

Benny Meng told us this month here in Fortaleza that he is no more a disciple of G.M. Garrett Gee. He still teaches H.F.Y., but he says H.F.Y. is only a piece of the original Shaolin W.C. puzzle. He is the only one who has all the pieces namely Chi Sim, H.F.Y. and Black Flag.
Benny Meng is the G.M. of Shaolin Wing Chun.
If Benny Meng still considered himself a H.F.Y. man he would not speak so low of H.F.Y. and the H.F.Y. people as he does on his Brazilian site.

tiger... the video show the form taught by Benny Meng in Brazil and what G.M. Garrett Gee shew to us was almost the same. So how do you know a different S.N.T. being a H.F.Y. student?

[Hudson Li]

This is the real Tree in accordance to the new researches of Alex Magnos and Benny Meng. It unites the southern temple, Cheung Ng, Hung Gun Biu, Yim Wing Chun, Wong Wah Bo, Yip Man and of course G.M. Benny Meng.
http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/hongkong/genealogia.php

G.M. Benny Meng's seminar was a great success! He is smart and because he wants to increase the number of students he did not ask for a dollar so I went there and checked it out. You can see our picture here
http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/shaolin/
Notice that the students use the H.F.Y. uniform?

More pictures here http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/shaolin/work_shaolinwck_03.php

About the seminar http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/index.php/topic,215.0.html

[CHS]

JPinAZ said:

"...These are 2 different things (Bai Si and business model/teaching methods). .."

Thanks for your explanation but I have to disagree with your logics behind the separation of 2.

If you look at the the discipleship explanation given by your HFY elder, Allen Kong. He said on this website (http://www.hungfakwoon.com/BaiSi.htm) that:

"..There is another level of student who truly identifies with the system and wishes to make a lifetime commitment to the system and the family. Bai Si, also known as discipleship, is the next step the individual would take to be accepted into the Kung Fu family..."

In my opinion, mixing the art with others and deviating the teaching method contradict "lifetime commitment to the system and the family". I am not saying the sifu BM is right or wrong here but what I am saying is discipleship (Bai Si) is meaningless if you cannot uphold the commitment.

Thanks. CHS

[tigershorty]

I don't know why you saw a different form than what i've learned - Could be a teaching method..to learn in layers. A lot of people teach that way in other fields. Kind of like a SNT vs SLT, i would guess.

also, i dont think that was the hung fa yi logo..i think it was the ving tsun museum logo on their shirts..someone else will have to confirm that, tho.

[Hudson Li]

Pause at 0:22". Yes it is the H.F.Y. logo.
The school of G.M. Benny Meng in Fortaleza is Red Flower Boxers Society and since he broke up with G.M. Garrett Gee we use a logo that reminds H.F.Y.
I liked the seminar of G.M. Benny Meng and will go back to his school.

[JPinAZ]

To 'Hudson Li',

That's a curious statement that Benny would say he is no longer a disciple of HFY and that he is now a GM of Shaolin WC. It is also interesting to hear you say Benny Meng how has all the 'missing' pieces of the WC puzzle! (I didn't know there even was a puzzle, let alone missing pieces)

As for all those pieces, let’s look at that for a minute:

It is pretty well known Benny Meng did learn some Chi Sim from GM Hoffman. I think it was a couple workshops and maybe a weeks worth of private training (?) I find it interesting he would have all the pieces for Chi Sim past a beginner level in that short time. Not saying it can’t be done of course, but I thought Chi Sim was a pretty in-depth system. Of course, GM Hoffman would know exactly how much Benny has actually learned.

For HFY, I have personally been learning HFY from GM Gee in the private instructor training right alongside Benny Meng for the past 4+ years. This includes multiple weekend long workshops per year with very little sleep. I make no judgment call on exactly how much Benny learned of HFY, but I do know there is still quite a bit more I have yet to learn anyway!

For Black Flag WC, it’s true Benny Meng is now learning from them. And, he has only been in contact with them for the past 2 years or so. He has been to some of their workshops (2 or 3 max I think?). It would also be surprising if, again, he was able to pick up all the pieces of Black flag in just a few workshops. Of course, the head of Black Flag would know more.

If Benny Meng was able to pick up all the missing pieces from all 3 lineages in that short time like you say, then he must really be super man - my hat’s off to him! If he said he is the new GM of Shaolin Wing Chun, then I offer him congrats and wish him sucess. And if what you say is true, then congrats also to those in Brazil that are learning from him, they are truly in good hands!



Benny Meng told us this month here in Fortaleza that he is no more a disciple of G.M. Garrett Gee. He still teaches H.F.Y., but he says H.F.Y. is only a piece of the original Shaolin W.C. puzzle. He is the only one who has all the pieces namely Chi Sim, H.F.Y. and Black Flag.
Benny Meng is the G.M. of Shaolin Wing Chun.
If Benny Meng still considered himself a H.F.Y. man he would not speak so low of H.F.Y. and the H.F.Y. people as he does on his Brazilian site.

tiger... the video show the form taught by Benny Meng in Brazil and what G.M. Garrett Gee shew to us was almost the same. So how do you know a different S.N.T. being a H.F.Y. student?

[JPinAZ]

JPinAZ said:

"...These are 2 different things (Bai Si and business model/teaching methods). .."

Thanks for your explanation but I have to disagree with your logics behind the separation of 2.

If you look at the the discipleship explanation given by your HFY elder, Allen Kong. He said on this website (http://www.hungfakwoon.com/BaiSi.htm) that:

"..There is another level of student who truly identifies with the system and wishes to make a lifetime commitment to the system and the family. Bai Si, also known as discipleship, is the next step the individual would take to be accepted into the Kung Fu family..."

In my opinion, mixing the art with others and deviating the teaching method contradict "lifetime commitment to the system and the family". I am not saying the sifu BM is right or wrong here but what I am saying is discipleship (Bai Si) is meaningless if you cannot uphold the commitment.

Thanks. CHS

Well, that is your opinion, and we are all entitled to them. It could just be that your ideas of discipleship and commitment may differ from others.
And, I don't think anyone said Benny isn't holding up his personal commitment to HFY. None of us knows what commitment he made, nor whether it's being held. That's really between him, the Buhn Jyun and the lineage itself, and really none of our buisness :)

Thanks,
Jonathan

[tigershorty]

oh, sorry..

for the logos on the shirt, i thought you meant the photos on that website..not the actual video.

[JPinAZ]

You can see our picture here
http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/shaolin/
Notice that the students use the H.F.Y. uniform?

More pictures here http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/shaolin/work_shaolinwck_03.php


Maybe you should look at the pictures. And, you should know what you are looking at before you speak. Tiger shorty is right, those are not HFY logos, those are the VTM and new Shaolin WC logos.

[Hudson Li]

Benny Meng is no more a disciple of H.F.Y. There is an official written declaration here under the title NOTÍCIA IMPORTANTE!
http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/shaolin/index.php

[CHS]

JPinAZ said:

"That's really between him, the Buhn Jyun and the lineage itself, and really none of our business "

Please don't pull this stunt on me now. This is a discussion and a debate. And I am discussing this topic based on my understanding of discipleship (from the chinese culture) and your HFY elder's definition on the term.

That's perfectly ok if you don't agree with me. But to say "none of our business" is a poor excuse and to avoid the real discussion.

Imagine this: I want to learn HFY, I go to HFY website and found Sifu BM contact info and contacted him. He doesn't teach HFY but some other forms.. what does this mean? Or, you have a question about HFY and you ask your Sigung. But he gave you some other info that deviates from the true teaching. What does the this mean? If you separate the 2, then all you retain is the "title", not the essense. So, what does that mean?

This is what I am discussing and debating... if you don't free like discussing with me, that's ok too.

Cheers! CHS

[Hudson Li]

Sorry when the picture was made the new uniform was ready. The old H.F.Y. uniform was burnt on fire for everyone's amusement.
I would say something about the video and forgot to delete the phrase about the uniform.
G.M. Benny Meng is famous for his Wing Chun and I was very impressed about his teachings about H.F.Y., Chi Sim and Fukien Eng Chun. I was wrong about his intentions and I do not know if he knows everything but he is very skilled and he is a master of H.K. Wing Chun, very respected. Since H.K. Wing Chun comes from the southern temple as you can see here http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/hongkong/genealogia.php
then a master of H.K. W.C. can extrac the essence of the older pieces of the puzzle, that are H.F.Y., C.S. and Eng Chun.
Shaolin Wing Chun makes a lot of sense for me now.

[li hudson]

I maybe have mis-spoke here.

It is true, Benny Meng is a disciple of HFY lineage. In traditional kung fu culture, once someone is a disciple through Bai Si, they are always a disciple. This bond is for life once made (as I understand). So, Benny Meng would still be a disciple of HFY. And yes, as such, Benny Meng is still a member of HFY. Also, as far as I know, GM Gee has never kicked anyone out of the lineage.

On another note, Benny Meng is also my sigung. I no longer recieve any training from him, nor do I follow any of his teaching methods or buisness models. But, in a traditional sense, he still is and will always be my 'sigung'.

Speaking of buisness models and teaching methods. It is probably obvious to some that Benny Meng has taken a different approach in these senses. And, I personally do not really identify with, nor follow, these methods. But, that doesn't change the fact that Benny Meng Bai Si'd to the HFY lineage, nor does it change the fact that he was a student and teach of HFY for the past 10 years. These are 2 different things (Bai Si and buisness model/teaching methods). And it still doesn't change the fact that he is my sigung.

Enough said.....

This is what Chinese call it "Chuen Shi".
Respect toward the teacher...once a sifu/disciple, it is everylasting......

You earn every of my respect

[li hudson]

This is the real Tree in accordance to the new researches of Alex Magnos and Benny Meng. It unites the southern temple, Cheung Ng, Hung Gun Biu, Yim Wing Chun, Wong Wah Bo, Yip Man and of course G.M. Benny Meng.
http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/hongkong/genealogia.php

G.M. Benny Meng's seminar was a great success! He is smart and because he wants to increase the number of students he did not ask for a dollar so I went there and checked it out. You can see our picture here
http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/shaolin/
Notice that the students use the H.F.Y. uniform?

More pictures here http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/shaolin/work_shaolinwck_03.php

About the seminar http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/index.php/topic,215.0.html


And which one is you ?
(you mentioned you were there too right?)

[li hudson]

Well, that is your opinion, and we are all entitled to them. It could just be that your ideas of discipleship and commitment may differ from others.
And, I don't think anyone said Benny isn't holding up his personal commitment to HFY. None of us knows what commitment he made, nor whether it's being held. That's really between him, the Buhn Jyun and the lineage itself, and really none of our buisness :)

Thanks,
Jonathan


Two thumbs up again ! :)

You deserve my respect sir.

[li hudson]

Sorry when the picture was made the new uniform was ready. The old H.F.Y. uniform was burnt on fire for everyone's amusement.
I would say something about the video and forgot to delete the phrase about the uniform.
G.M. Benny Meng is famous for his Wing Chun and I was very impressed about his teachings about H.F.Y., Chi Sim and Fukien Eng Chun. I was wrong about his intentions and I do not know if he knows everything but he is very skilled and he is a master of H.K. Wing Chun, very respected. Since H.K. Wing Chun comes from the southern temple as you can see here http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/hongkong/genealogia.php
then a master of H.K. W.C. can extrac the essence of the older pieces of the puzzle, that are H.F.Y., C.S. and Eng Chun.
Shaolin Wing Chun makes a lot of sense for me now.

So, I am a bit confused now....Are you anti BM or are you with him?
Because in the last previous posting, it seems you'd been attacking his character and now you said you like his teaching ??? Clarify please....

[JPinAZ]

JPinAZ said:

"That's really between him, the Buhn Jyun and the lineage itself, and really none of our business "

Please don't pull this stunt on me now. This is a discussion and a debate. And I am discussing this topic based on my understanding of discipleship (from the chinese culture) and your HFY elder's definition on the term.

That's perfectly ok if you don't agree with me. But to say "none of our business" is a poor excuse and to avoid the real discussion.

Imagine this: I want to learn HFY, I go to HFY website and found Sifu BM contact info and contacted him. He doesn't teach HFY but some other forms.. what does this mean? Or, you have a question about HFY and you ask your Sigung. But he gave you some other info that deviates from the true teaching. What does the this mean? If you separate the 2, then all you retain is the "title", not the essense. So, what does that mean?

This is what I am discussing and debating... if you don't free like discussing with me, that's ok too.

Cheers! CHS

Hi,

Hi have no problems with discussion. But the discussion did turn towards whether or not Benny is 'upholding his commitment' (which is in the part you did not quote). IMO, that is not our buisness, nor for us to say (well, at least not for me to say). I am in no position to make that call, so I won't discuss it - it'd be hear-say anyway. No stunt.

Here's what I will say regarding the issue:
As far as Benny being a 'member' of HFY, the way I see it, from a historical standpoint, he will always be a member - he Bai Si'd to the system. Maybe the term active/inactive member would be more correct here?
So, Is he currently an active member of the HFY organization? That could be questionable given the current conditions (again, not really my call). But, let's just say Benny decided to follow a different path. It doesn't mean from a historical standpoint he never learned or taught HFY does it? He will always appear in the family tree as a 9th Generation Disciple.

Another thought on 'kung fu culture':
The kwoon here in Arizona used to be part called Meng's Martial Arts of Arizona. It no longer hangs that banner, and is simply a Hung Fa Kwoon of Arizona. Having been present through most of what brought this about, I am pretty familiar with the reasons.
For my part, I no longer identified with my sigung's buisness model, teaching methods nor personal ambitions. I can't speak for the others here, but it's safe to say the feeling was not mine alone.
So, when the new owner took over, ties were severed in that regard and Meng's of AZ is no longer.
The kwoon no longer supports his buisness model.
Nor does it recieve any training from him.
And he does not have any authority over the school or students.
These are simply the facts.
But, having been his grandstudent, I still can't erase the fact that he was and is my sigung from a lineage and historical standpoint. I can't erase the fact that he taught my teacher a lot of his kung fu. But he doesn't teach me. I could care less what he does anymore.

And, just like me, Benny can't erase history, or can't erase the fact that he Bai Si'd to the system. So, maybe now it would be simpler to say he just isn't an 'active member' of HFY. But again, it's not my call.

Regards,
Jonathan

A side note: Yeah, the HFY HQ website hasn't been updated in quite a long time. There are a few things that I see are a bit out of date.

[JPinAZ]

Two thumbs up again ! :)

You deserve my respect sir.

No offence, but why should I care? who are you again? You don't even tell us your real name..

[duende]

Sorry when the picture was made the new uniform was ready. The old H.F.Y. uniform was burnt on fire for everyone's amusement.




Burn our uniform, but still use our name for marketing purposes?? Wow... the level of class as hit an all time low.



Since H.K. Wing Chun comes from the southern temple as you can see here http://shaolinwingchun.com.br/hongkong/genealogia.php
then a master of H.K. W.C. can extrac the essence of the older pieces of the puzzle, that are H.F.Y., C.S. and Eng Chun.
Shaolin Wing Chun makes a lot of sense for me now.

"Extract the Essence"... again WOW.... that speaks for itself.

I feel sorry for those in the VTM who know first hand that this is EXACTLY how HFY is NOT taught, but in fact LOST to personal expression.

Hence all the timing/spacial distortion's in the demo video posted.

But hey... if it makes sense to you, then have at it.

I think trying to learn Kung Fu from someone thousands of miles away is ridiculous in the first place.

[CHS]

JPinAZ said:

"But the discussion did turn towards whether or not Benny is 'upholding his commitment' (which is in the part you did not quote)"

Hi, part of the discipleship is to uphold the commitment, as quoted by Allen. Generally, the discipleship commitment includes defending and carrying forward (发扬光大）the martial art tradition. Commitment is also part of the filiat piety （尊师重道）. Unless there is a special commitment arrangement between sifu BM and sifu Gee, his actions don't really fall into the discipleship category.

At the end, I believe discipleship is a complex subject when you start mixing with business ($$$). It applies elsewhere too.

Thank you for clarifying the status of Hungfakwoon website and Hungfakwoon of AZ. This is good information.

CHS.

[t_niehoff]

Actually, I've not only a masters and two bachelor's degrees under my belt, but have taught undergraduate courses in the past. So it wouldn't be too far a stretch to consider myself an academic. Regardless, I know what real research entails.


You wouldn't gather that from the things you say.



History debunked? In fact it appears more and more chunners are siding with our history every day.


Things like this. That you sell nonsense to people who don't know better hardly proves anything. In your "research" maybe you should google "appeal to popularity" fallacy.



You'd be surprise how many WC people will now tell you that they do not believe the Ng Mui myth a$$hole.


Quite frankly, I am surprised anyone ever believee it to be true. It is clearly an allegory, not historical fact.



On top of that, you now have Hendrik and Robert agreeing with us in regards to there being a relationship between the Heaven Earth Society and Hung Mun and the history of WING CHUN. We argue over differences as to what role they played and where... which is much different then what you suggest.

So again stop making assumptions and get off your high horse.

As for a money machine? Please tell me what the hell you are talking about. On the contrary, my Sifu has been offered lots of money to make videos but never has. There is no money machine.


Hmmm. No $20,000.00 disciple fees? Nothing like that? ;)

[Chango]

Burn our uniform, but still use our name for marketing purposes?? Wow... the level of class as hit an all time low.


Can't say anything about the burning of the shirt. Maybe something therapeutic??? I'm not sure. But let it be clear that HFY is not used in "marketing"!
Yes it is mentioned but as said before you can't change the past. Also like my school there is still alot of transition that is going on.


I feel sorry for those in the VTM who know first hand that this is EXACTLY how HFY is NOT taught, but in fact LOST to personal expression.

Hence all the timing/spacial distortion's in the demo video posted.


I know you may feel strongly that it was about "personal espression" but keep in mind you have not seen what those of us at the VTM have seen. I personally could see limitation in what was offered when GMG visited the VTM. I'm not saying it was the HFY system but it was just what I personally felt. (more drills no fighting just drill after drill ) That has nothing to do with Sifu BM. Again you should possibly discuss this with him.

As far as the demo it is what it is! If you felt there was a distortion according to HFY that's fine. Because was what shown in that vid was not HFY. Granted it did have some in there. But as I said before it was made to fit the people who attended the demo. I thought the demo was clear and got it's point accross. I didn't expect to see SIfu level demos from a group of students. But hey that's just me. I was pleased with the demo personally.

gotta go

:D Is hell expecting a cold front? Becuase I find myself agreeing with T. Niehoff on a few points! :D:D:D:D:D:D;)

[Marcelo-RJ]

Hey, everyone!

Jonathan, brother, I respect your understanding about the relationship between Sifu and Todai. However, I myself believe there is a limit for everything, so something that was made to last forever sometimes may simply vanish into the air.
Although I haven't practiced Hung Gar since 1988, I still consider my old Hung Kune teacher my Sifu. Although I nowadays learn Luta-Livre from a student of my former teacher, I still call the old man "Mestrão" ("Big Master"). However, my freedom of conscience and thought speaks louder than any old time tradition of a distant land when the subject is Benny Meng. For years, I watched Benny acting behind GM Gee's back and for many years I and my Kung Fu partners had to afford Benny's trips and to pay for the HFYWC lessons that, in the end, we have never had. For years, I and my brother Jacques have tried to make our KF family see that Benny Meng was creating his own parallel organization and his own Wing Chun style while falsely proclaiming his loyalty to GM Gee. For years, I and my KF brothers have spent a lot of money and energy in promoting the name of HFYWC in South America while Benny Meng taught us a different animal, encouraged us to lie to our Grand Master and kept us under threats of expulsion in the case we contacted directly the guardian of the HFY system.
Some of my American KF brothers complain that I do not discuss technical stuff, but the truth is that after five years of instruction under Benny Meng, in the course of which we brought him to Rio nine times for private and intensive instruction, well, the truth is that I have no conditions at all to discuss any technical stuff, for Benny taught us his Shaolin Wing Chun stuff (BTW, isn't Shaolin Mandarin and Wing Chun Cantonese???) as if that was Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.
Had I not visited GM Gee, I would never have a glimpse of what HFY is all about.
I am a witness of the many opportunities that GM Gee gave to Benny to step back and honor his commitment to HFYWC. And I am also a witness of the many times that Benny betrayed our Grand Master and manipulated the information to take advantage of our good will and hard work while stabbing the guardian of the system.
So, no, I don't consider Benny Meng my Sifu. Rather, I consider him a betrayer that all the time has only taken personal profit out of mine, my brothers' and my real Sifu's - Grand Master Gee's - good will.
Benny Meng - who has even tried (and, of course, only tried) to sell his awkward BJJ labeled as "HFY groud fighting" - destroyed the reputation that my brothers built for HFY in Rio de Janeiro and the South of Brazil. Now, we, that were dozens, are but a handful of practitioners, while Benny Meng's org counts in dozens of people in some states of the North, where people are poorer and have limited access to information.
As to the Hudson guy in the North: were you brainwashed during the seminar or what?
Sorry for sounding bitter.

Marcelo

[anerlich]

Oh, but that's the public version of ASLT. The private version has two pheonix eye fist strikes in the 2nd section...hmmm...perhaps that is the Australian version of ASLT, that has the 2 phoenix eye strikes?


I'm unaware of any SLT with phoenix eye strikes taught in Australian TWC.

Which of course doesn't mean you couldn't make one up for yourself.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm unaware of any SLT with phoenix eye strikes taught in Australian TWC.

Which of course doesn't mean you couldn't make one up for yourself.


***PERHAPS HE DID. :cool:

[anerlich]

Grandmaster Gee has been teaching since the 1970's, I don't think TWC was in the US before 1980.

#$%^&#@ Americans and their @#$^&*%*&^ world view.

TWC was being taught in Australia since at least 1973, and William Cheung was taking Australian students in the 1960's. He also taught for a time in New Zealand.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Almost feeling sorry for some of the HFY guys, because it seems a whole bunch of them are now caught between a rock and a hard place. They learned from Benny Meng (or they had to recognize him as a very big player in the HFY organization - whether they were learning directly from him or not)...and now they are trying to still show some respect for him even though he's now doing to Garrett Gee (and the HFY system) what he's always done to wing chun people in the past.

He uses them (learns from them)...
Kisses their butts and promotes their systems of wing chun while learning...
Tries (works tirelessly) to carve a place of high importance for himself within their organizations...
Eventually leaves them to go on to "bigger-and-better things" (in his opportunist mind, anyway)...
Badmouths them while continuing to use what he learned from them.

Great guy, huh? :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

#$%^&#@ Americans and their @#$^&*%*&^ world view. . .
Whoa, where did that come from? Countries are made up of individuals who have individual opinions. I'd never call an Australian a convict. It just wouldn't be right. You love your country and I love mine but we can be civil.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think Andrew was just kidding around, Phil.

Are you okay? :)

[anerlich]

Sorry Phil, that was meant to be a joke.

Still, it's preposterous to suggest that TWC didn't exist until Americans got a hold of it. From a practitioner of a lineage which purports to pride itself on having "the true WC history", nonetheless.

Many Australians take pride in their convict heritage. I can't, however, my great-great grandfather and g-g-grandmother came to Adelaide from Hamburg as free settlers in 1845. (No grandmaster jokes, please).

[duende]

Can't say anything about the burning of the shirt. Maybe something therapeutic??? I'm not sure. But let it be clear that HFY is not used in "marketing"!
Yes it is mentioned but as said before you can't change the past. Also like my school there is still alot of transition that is going on.

I know you may feel strongly that it was about "personal espression" but keep in mind you have not seen what those of us at the VTM have seen. I personally could see limitation in what was offered when GMG visited the VTM. I'm not saying it was the HFY system but it was just what I personally felt. (more drills no fighting just drill after drill ) That has nothing to do with Sifu BM. Again you should possibly discuss this with him.

As far as the demo it is what it is! If you felt there was a distortion according to HFY that's fine. Because was what shown in that vid was not HFY. Granted it did have some in there. But as I said before it was made to fit the people who attended the demo. I thought the demo was clear and got it's point accross. I didn't expect to see SIfu level demos from a group of students. But hey that's just me. I was pleased with the demo personally.

gotta go

:D Is hell expecting a cold front? Becuase I find myself agreeing with T. Niehoff on a few points! :D:D:D:D:D:D;)

It's true, I have not seen what those of you at the VTM have seen. But then again, I'm content in learning what I have of HFY directly from GM Gee. So if you think about it... who has seen more of what is relative isn't it?

As for the drills... they teach core body mechanics and foundation (ie. structural energy) Making them your own, and gaining the ability to apply the concepts taught in the drills in real fighting, and sparring is simply the next step.

It may not be as revolutionary as "extracting the essence", but it works. :)

Anyways, one doesn't have to be a Sifu to demonstrate an awareness of structural energy. Any beginner can do it, but they can't do it if they are caught up in expressing Chi Sim 3-gate
postures too.

Sure, you say NOW that the video is not HFY. But certainly at the time the video was made, it was most definitely presented as such. Just look at the shirts they are all wearing.

I do not care to argue with you online. I actually have always thought highly of you and sincerely wish you the best with your future endeavors.

As corny as it sounds I truly hope we can move forward, and let the past be.

Best to you,

Alex

[Phil Redmond]

Sorry Phil, that was meant to be a joke.

Still, it's preposterous to suggest that TWC didn't exist until Americans got a hold of it. From a practitioner of a lineage which purports to pride itself on having "the true WC history", nonetheless.

Many Australians take pride in their convict heritage. I can't, however, my great-great grandfather and g-g-grandmother came to Adelaide from Hamburg as free settlers in 1845. (No grandmaster jokes, please).
No problem Andrew. I respect old dudes like us that are still training. :D So I was thinking that you'd had a few pints at the pub when you wrote that. jk ;)
I know where you're coming from. If it weren't for Sifu Blaine Collins who met Sifu Cheung while his U.S. Navy ship was docked in Melbourne we'd probably never have TWC in the States. There is a lot history regarding Sifu Cheung that most Yanks aren't aware of. Duncan Leung personally told me and wrote in his book "Wing Chun Warrior" about how Sifu Cheung would fight for the Chinese when they were hassled by guys who would start trouble with the local Chinese. Keith Young who is probably the most senior student who is still in TWC witnessed a challenge fight with Cheung Sifu and another Sifu. After seeing Sifu Cheung win the fight he decided to start training under him. Keith gave the article with pics to my student Ryan Kennedy who taught at the Melbourne Academy a while back. I'll post it here later on today. So props to you Aussies for your earlier TWC history. I'm sure your Sifu has some good stories to tell as well.

[namron]

I'm unaware of any SLT with phoenix eye strikes taught in Australian TWC.

Which of course doesn't mean you couldn't make one up for yourself.

Cant recall any 'pheonix eye' being taught in the form down in Melb either, well at least back to 1990, which is about when I began WC.

I can recall the phoenix eye being used as a kind of training wheels for Bil Jee, with William teaching striking applications for soft targets and advocating hand strengthening / conditioning before attempting to use finger strikes.

[LSWCTN1]

This is ridiculous. NO, his thumb is not inside his fingers. You are just seeing things to cause trouble.

Seriously... get frickin life!

WOW!

i have never poeted a provocative post on this forum before (at least not deliberately)

in fact i even 'stuck up' for HFY a couple of threads ago

i have re-looked at the (granted, very grainy) picture and still believe that his thumb is inside his fist. thats just my opinion - if you see it otherwise then fine.

i thought it was deliberate - so i asked the purpose of it.

so, seriously... calm yourself down! :eek:

[CFT]

i have re-looked at the (granted, very grainy) picture and still believe that his thumb is inside his fist. thats just my opinion - if you see it otherwise then fine.The picture is a bit too grainy to discern properly. Do you think the top digit looks like the thumb tucking in rather than the index finger? I think the thumb is to the side but the index finger has got a weird angle - maybe phoenix eye fist?

If you look at the other guy then clearly (to me!) he does not have his thumb in his fist. I wouldn't expect Garrett Gee to be any different.

[duende]

WOW!

i have never poeted a provocative post on this forum before (at least not deliberately)

in fact i even 'stuck up' for HFY a couple of threads ago

i have re-looked at the (granted, very grainy) picture and still believe that his thumb is inside his fist. thats just my opinion - if you see it otherwise then fine.

i thought it was deliberate - so i asked the purpose of it.

so, seriously... calm yourself down! :eek:

Cool... my apologies. However you are simply incorrect about the thumb.

[punchdrunk]

ALl the criticism of Benny Meng for starting black flag wing chun is hilarious!! He's running the VTM and it is his mandate to research and experience and then share knowledge from different sources and families. Everyone, you, me, Benny Meng, Robert Chu, any praticioner of any art has the right to experience others teaching! Regarding his discipleship and bai si... obviously that is personal between student and Sifu and anything said on this forum would just be heresay. I beleive there may be huge problems in the future between Meng and HFY because HFY has always tried to remain private and now B Meng can share things and people will debate whether or not it even is HFY. The book Mastering Kung fu was right about one thing, this is the age of the keyboard warrior and whoever has the most people to yak online or is willing to waste the most time to yak online inevitably wins. Now excuse me while I go yak in the toilet.

P.S. thanx for sharing the clip in this thread.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Punch,

There is no problem with Benny learning and teaching whatever he wants. The problem, at least as I perceive it, is that he smiles on everyone's face but behind the back he cheats, lies and uses the ones around him, including all of his Sifus.

To name only his past Sifus, I've heard Benny saying bad, bad things about Moy Yat, Robert Chu, Andreas Hoffman and even Garrett Gee - who, by that time, was still Benny's HFY teacher.
I've wasted a lot of money in learning something that I believed to be HFY, when the gross of the material that Benny was teaching in Brazil was his Shaolin Wing Chun labeled as HFYWC. I've seen Benny forging, behind GM Gee's back, a comercial alliance with someone who is widely known for his unscrupulous character and distributing "HFY black belts" for pseudo-"HFY instructors" in exchange for their (blind) votes of fidelity.

That's my experience, of course. Other persons, like Chango, see Benny with different eyes.

As Victor put it:


he's now doing to Garrett Gee (and the HFY system) what he's always done to wing chun people in the past.

He uses them (learns from them)...
Kisses their butts and promotes their systems of wing chun while learning...
Tries (works tirelessly) to carve a place of high importance for himself within their organizations...
Eventually leaves them to go on to "bigger-and-better things" (in his opportunist mind, anyway)...
Badmouths them while continuing to use what he learned from them.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Originally Posted by Chango
I personally could see limitation in what was offered when GMG visited the VTM. I'm not saying it was the HFY system but it was just what I personally felt. (more drills no fighting just drill after drill )

Hey, buddy, wait... shouldn't it be expected that someone giving a seminar passed on drills after drills to the ones in attendance?

And does Benny have you guys fighting during his seminars? Down here, he never had us fighting; rather, his seminars were like talk after talk and drills after drills, no fighting at all. The same for the WT, Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut and Tai Chi Chuan seminars I attended. The same for Muay Thai. But should we expect something different from a seminar?

Yes, I roll after BJJ/Luta Livre seminars, but that is not fighting either.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good point, Marcelo. I was wondering about that "drills-after-drills - but no fighting" comment myself.

[Hudson Li]

Please take a look at the news about our school in Fortaleza, our association is growing fast and we are the only school that offer the Three Halls of Shaolin in all the latin speaking world, we have a compreensive system including H.F.Y. Wing Chun, Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hek Ki Boen/Black Bandana Eng Chun and we have Hong Kong Ving Tsun for who has interest too.
Grand Master Benny Meng wants everybody to become Shaolin experts and offers this oportunity of a lifetime.
Thank you.
http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/index.php?board=86.0

[Marcelo-RJ]

How can a comprehensive system be built by someone who hasn't seen but partially each of the three Wing Chun modalities that such a system comprises?

Oh, and is it Black Flag or Blag Bandana that you guys learn within that amazing program?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"How can a comprehensive system be built by someone who hasn't seen but partially each of the three Wing Chun modalities that such a system comprises?" (Marcelo)

..............................

***HE can try to build whatever he wants. But the deception comes when he labels what he does as "comprehensive"...."complete"....or, that he's the "only one who knows all of it", etc.

This is typical Benny Meng. Every xxx amount of years he tries to re-invent himself and the whole wing chun paradigm, with the "new" product/Benny Meng always being better, more knowledgable, more formidable, and more complete than the one previous...

and the "new" product is alway THE PINNACLE of what wing chun can ever possibly be.

Until the next re-invention process.

And if you notice, he always changes the focal point of the geography with each new invention as well. (He has to - as too many enemies are left behind with each new stab-in-the-back episode). Now he's obviously concentrating heavily on South America as the next best thing.

You can't make this 5hit up! :p ;) :D

[li hudson]

Please take a look at the news about our school in Fortaleza, our association is growing fast and we are the only school that offer the Three Halls of Shaolin in all the latin speaking world, we have a compreensive system including H.F.Y. Wing Chun, Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hek Ki Boen/Black Bandana Eng Chun and we have Hong Kong Ving Tsun for who has interest too.
Grand Master Benny Meng wants everybody to become Shaolin experts and offers this oportunity of a lifetime.
Thank you.
http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/index.php?board=86.0

So you guys have all three comprehensive system to teach there (HFY, Chi Sim, Black Flag) ?

[Marcelo-RJ]

Ciao, Victor!

Benny is a fox. He smelled a good opportunity in the air when he saw a combination of an unscrupulous guy that dreamed to be acknowledged as a Wing Chun teacher and a bunch of ignorant (in the sense of low level of intellectual instruction) people whose inclination to be blind followers was obvious. So, there it is: Benny's promised land is now the North of Brazil, the poorest portion of this land. Just take a look at the pictures of Benny Meng's "most successful workshop" and the other pictures on his Brazilian website, and you'll see that he's dealing with people whose faces are marked by suffering. It's a shame that he takes personal advantage of people like that.

[Chango]

I find this to be very silly.

Let me be clear my comment on drill after drill is simple.

All I've heard year after year is stories about fighting etc....

I personally have been in many fights etc.... and stepped in the ring many times in san sau, Chi sau, Rolled with BJJ guys and the boxing ring etc... So alot of the fantasy talk about fights etc... simply ran it's course with me! I personally had to take a look around at many of the Hung fa kwoons and in SF who is fighting? Outside of texas, KC,Indiana and Ohio? All I heard was BS about "taking people out really quick and sport fighting is a waste" I've heard people in the HFY family try to BS me about fighting past that can't be documented etc...

Regardless of what any of them have to say about my Sifu Meng's martialarts has produced state and national champions in TKD, Kung fu etc.... every year for close to 21 years. Not to many schools can say that. That's sport fighting but it is fighting and not Keyboard fighting etc...



Yes, I roll after BJJ/Luta Livre seminars, but that is not fighting either.

Perfect example! Ask the HFY guys how often they spar. I mean going Tap/Choke and medium to heavy contact???? once a week? once a month? How many times do they do this a year??? I can say that we've had many GM share info at the VTM and at some point live energy outside of a drill has been addressed. I had issues with this drill upon drill method. As a matter of fact I've heard criticism about doing to much "outside of the box" stuff because I encourage my students to mix it up as often as possible.

Everytime I visit my Sifu's school we get to spar in one fashion or another!!! I have personally had experiences of using things from his teaching to save my life against bigger and stronger people! i could have never recieved this from a drilling etc.... format.

My biggest issue was not the HFY system. It is the politics and the fantasy that you can be a great fighter by just training drills.

I have to admit there are many different issues and I share personally all of those same issues with HFY that was on Alex's site. I have much more back ground info and other larger issues, that I'm not going to share becuase I'm not interested in doing damage to the HFY Lineage! Even though Marcelo continues to attack my Sifu.

Marcelo/Victor stop hating! No matter how much energy you use to try to tear down Sifu Meng with rumors etc.... there will be those who will have a chance to meet Sifu Meng face to face and at that point it will all be clear. Keep in mind the VTM recieves all sort of calls and contacts from one guy/lineage trying to destroy another guy! Then we make contact and it all becomes clear! LOL! As a matter of fact we've had potential guest contacted by haters saying negative things about the VTM. Once again once the come face to face they see it's just haters!

The VTM is has always been a place where all Wing/Weng chun hell all martial artist are welcome!! If you can't and don't want to come that's fine! but no need to hate!

As a VTM representative I'm proud to be able to offer my students a oppertunity to learn not just one Wing/eng/Weng Chun point of view! We are of only a very few people on this planet that can offer this point of view!

I'm very proud to say I've personally met and had training experience with Moy Yat, Chu Tsun tin, William Cheun, Andreas Hoffman, Garrette Gee, Suhu Lin,Ip Ching, Ip Chun etc......

Most people who come to me to learn martial arts. It's that simple. As a kung fu guy I have huge respect for lineage etc... But what I'm seeing on this thread is nothing but trash talk etc...

Has anyone else come to the conclusion that this thread has turned into a waste of time ? Man I went away for a day and I tried to get caught up and I can't say I feel like I gained anything having read this.

No need to hate just participate!! :D;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Marcelo/Victor stop hating! No matter how much energy you use to try to tear down Sifu Meng with rumors etc....there will be those who will have a chance to meet Sifu Meng face to face and at that point it will all be clear." (Chango)

.......................................

***AGAIN, Chango...these are not rumors, these are facts.

I know very well what the game was he played with my first instructor, Moy Yat; what the game was he played with the students in Moy Yat's school; what the game was he played with the VT museum; what the game was he played with facts and history as he pitched HFY in the numerous magazine articles in KUNG FU MAGAZINE; what the game was when he first met and attended two of my present sifu, William Cheung's seminars; and now it's becoming public what the game was/is he's playing with Garrrett Gee and the HFY organization. And I even know what the game was he played with Andreas Hoffman and Weng Chun - as I got to meet and work out with one of Andreas' top guys here in NYC several years ago. After receiving an email from Andreas telling me that his man was in town and he wanted him to meet/workout with me.

There's no hiding any of this. You can deny all you want - but you will get to hide nothing. And the biggest "hating" of all is his (and apparently your) hatred of the truth.

As for any day of reckoning if he and I ever come face-to-face for a second time - please don't make me laugh.

There's nothing I have to fear from Benny Meng.

[Chango]

Victor,

We've heard your side of things over and over! No one fears or hates what you have to say! I can only show compassion for those who hold hatred! I'm not interested in playing a point by point ****ing match with you. All I can say is that everyone who may be reading this and has never met Sifu Meng. Just simply consider the source and content and take the time to meet the man. Then judge for yourself. It's that simple!

No one has ever said you "fear" anything! LOL! Victor please let's not beat our chest here! We know we are all big bad kung fu men here!! LOL! :D:D:D:D

I fear no man!!! (as long as my wife says it's ok) LOL!

[duende]

I find this to be very silly.

Let me be clear my comment on drill after drill is simple.

All I've heard year after year is stories about fighting etc....

I personally have been in many fights etc.... and stepped in the ring many times in san sau, Chi sau, Rolled with BJJ guys and the boxing ring etc... So alot of the fantasy talk about fights etc... simply ran it's course with me! I personally had to take a look around at many of the Hung fa kwoons and in SF who is fighting? Outside of texas, KC,Indiana and Ohio? All I heard was BS about "taking people out really quick and sport fighting is a waste" I've heard people in the HFY family try to BS me about fighting past that can't be documented etc...




How many times have you been to SF? Once??? Twice tops?? Because from my experience the only person who actually trained with us consistently from Ohio be it either sparring or skill challenge drills was Mike Mathews. Brad Ryan, and Daniel Hernandez trained as well, but only more recently when they joined the organization.

All great guys btw... And we always made it a point to go at it after hours at the seminars. I'd like to hear any of the guys I mentioned stand up here and say what you have. They won't, because they have trained with us, and they know how hard we work. You don't because you were never here in SF for the seminars or the after hours sparring.

As for our Phoenix school, they mixed it up with the Texas school you mentioned. And who got hurt??? Not anyone from the Phoenix school.

Injuries happen, and I know Brad's school has had some great successes. My point is your statement has no merit in regards to their school either.

As for your comment in regards to sports fighting.. Who said that and when?? At best you have taken some statement out of context. We just believe in SF that if you want to learn ground fighting that you should go to an actual jiu jitsu school. We don't try and sell a whole program to students when they enter our door to study WC.




Regardless of what any of them have to say about my Sifu Meng's martialarts has produced state and national champions in TKD, Kung fu etc.... every year for close to 21 years. Not to many schools can say that. That's sport fighting but it is fighting and not Keyboard fighting etc...




I'm not talking bad about Master Meng or his school. I only shared my opinion regarding the video and the pathetic burning of some T-shirts. I think that you guys offer good schools out there and I wish you continued success. We simply have gone our own separate ways.



Perfect example! Ask the HFY guys how often they spar. I mean going Tap/Choke and medium to heavy contact???? once a week? once a month? How many times do they do this a year??? I can say that we've had many GM share info at the VTM and at some point live energy outside of a drill has been addressed. I had issues with this drill upon drill method. As a matter of fact I've heard criticism about doing to much "outside of the box" stuff because I encourage my students to mix it up as often as possible.

Go ahead ask us. We do medium contact San Da every weekend. But typically we do not wear pads, just face protection and sometimes gloves to protect our fingers. We do wear pads sometimes for heavy contact, but more often prefer instead to bridge with full contact, and then pull our punches at striking range. This allows us to condition while still maintaing freedom of movement etc...

As for any criticism about "outside the box" program it was because we disagree on when "outside the box" material should be taught. Again you are portraying information out of context. Which is especially silly here because it was Sifu Gee who taught us all about the concept of "outside the box" fighting in the first place!

The difference is simply that we belive that the student should first establish a WC identity. Meaning that they know how to utilize WC stuctural energy and body mechanics before incorporating "outside the box" techniques.

We also encourage our students to go mix it up. We encourage them to go visit other schools and question everything they are taught.



Everytime I visit my Sifu's school we get to spar in one fashion or another!!! I have personally had experiences of using things from his teaching to save my life against bigger and stronger people! i could have never recieved this from a drilling etc.... format.

My biggest issue was not the HFY system. It is the politics and the fantasy that you can be a great fighter by just training drills.


This issue has already been addressed by others here.

When learning how to apply body mechanics within a WC concept... Fixed drills are for beginners, Live drills are for intermediate, San Da drills are for advanced. Even MA's with years of martial arts experience need time to retrain their body and learn how to use the proper body mechanics of the material being taught.




I have to admit there are many different issues and I share personally all of those same issues with HFY that was on Alex's site. I have much more back ground info and other larger issues, that I'm not going to share becuase I'm not interested in doing damage to the HFY Lineage! Even though Marcelo continues to attack my Sifu.


Not interested in doing damage?? Are you sure about that?

As for Marcelo's actions, remember it was your Sifu who brought him into the fold. Don't try and blame Marcelo's actions on us. Same for Ghostdog and Cimaroon.

Chango if you are tired of the trash talk then let this thread die.

I certainly am tired of it too.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Chango:

First of all, I'm not writting as a HFY man. I'm writting as a person who, as happened to many others in Rio, was deceived by your sifu, Benny Meng. As a person who put a lot of money and energy in a project that in the end has proven to be a personal, egoic and egoistical project of your sifu, Benny Meng. I'm writting, Chango, as someone whom Benny Meng addressed on the face as his "favorite student in Brazil" but behind the back was called many a bad name.

I could be writting as a HFY man, if, and only if, your sifu had taught me HFY. Instead, he only shew us something after GM Gee confirmed that he'd come to Rio in September 2007. Oh, and there's one detail here: he wanted us to learn by watching a DVD so that he could only make some adjustments personally. The same thing, btw, that he's doing right now with Alex Magnos, who proudly beats on his chest and says he's got more DVDs than we in Rio have, since he's got everything that was taught in SF until Benny quit the Association.

Great deal? Nope. I'm quite convinced one cannot learn HFY (or any other MA) through video/book. So, how come someone acknowledge someone else as a MA expert, if the later was but a virtual student throughout his life?

You wrote:


I have to admit there are many different issues and I share personally all of those same issues with HFY that was on Alex's site. I have much more back ground info and other larger issues, that I'm not going to share becuase I'm not interested in doing damage to the HFY Lineage!

What backgroud information do you have and what are the other larger issues? If you really did not want to cause demage to the HFY lineage, why should you insinuate there are things still worse than those that are declared at the VTM Brazilian website (which, BTW, are but the reflection of Benny Meng's thoughts and attitudes)? You simply repeat the same thing that's written there - "there are more horrible things, but since we do not want to cause demage, we will keep them for our own". This is cr@p. This is coward. The subliminar message behind it is: we are fair and they are vilains. Be direct if you dare, or simply assume that Benny Meng is no more a HFY man because there was no more space for him within the family. He was given many chances. Many. But he did not change his behaviour. He did not stop to take the others' money without giving them HFY lessons back. He did not stop badmouthing his SF brothers. He did not stop forcing his Shaolin-whatever program down through the throat of his students under the affirmation that GM Gee's teaching method was uneffective (something that you clearly reproduce here). He didn't stop building his parallel organizantion, through which he used to sell whatever he wanted - his own products, his own MMA program, his own WC his-story etc - under the label "HFYWC". He, and he alone, created the distortions that led him away. Even and now, can't you guys be men enough and assume it?

You wrote:

Ask the HFY guys how often they spar. I mean going Tap/Choke and medium to heavy contact???? once a week? once a month? How many times do they do this a year???

Let me tell you this: I've never ever seen Benny Meng sparring, although I've met him regularly for five years.
Yes, I've heard him saying that he bet Sergio Iadalora right before GM Hoffman's eyes. I've heard him saying he bet many WC men. I've heard him saying he was getting prepared to smash Alan Orr's face in the UK. I've heard him saying he would take a flight to shut Robert Chu's mouth up. But I've never seen him sparring.
It's funny to read the things you write about how hard you guys fight in OH, because, here in Rio, Benny Meng has NEVER accepted my invitations when I wanted to take him to local MMA gymns in order to introduce him to my teachers and give him an opportunity to show that, as HE used to put it, (his) HFY system would counter and defeat any style.

You should listen to what Duende said. Benny's method is like first you have to learn how the others fight so that one day maybe you'll learn how to fight as a Wing Chun guy. GM Gee's method is: first you stablish your Wing Chun identity, then you (must) start proving yourself as a WC guy against other fighters.
And I tell you this: because I wasn't trained correctly, although I fight very well, I cannot express myself as a Wing Chun man when I'm fighting. So, if I fight as my MMA colleagues do, why on Earth did I dedicate so much effort, time and money for WC training?
Sorrym, dude, but it seems you guys have also missed the opportunity to learn what GM Gee had to teach; in your case, because you guys did not empty the cup (too much pride, hum?).

You wrote:

As a VTM representative I'm proud to be able to offer my students a oppertunity to learn not just one Wing/eng/Weng Chun point of view! We are of only a very few people on this planet that can offer this point of view!

See? You guys are blinded by pride. As the kid from Fortaleza reported, Benny convinces you easily that you are the only ones who have "all the pieces of the puzzle". You are so blessed, aren't you?


there will be those who will have a chance to meet Sifu Meng face to face and at that point it will all be clear.

The point is never clear with Benny Meng. Actually, Benny is that kind of person that is easy to like. He really plays well the good boy role. He knows how to manipulate information and people's thought. I myself stayed by Benny's side and went against my brothers for three years before I decided to bring his actions to the table and to expose that he was betraying GM Gee and the HFY family. So, I'd not be surprised if, like happened to Hudson, people got charmed by Benny's easy talk. But the mask always slips. Always.

As Victor put it: these are not rumors, these are facts.

Be well,

Marcelo

[Ultimatewingchun]

First of all, I have met Benny Meng, Chango. And to some extent, your right: even though this is a "new" conversation regarding the recent turn of events in the HFY world - the whole thing is really getting old. It's the same old story with Benny Meng.

[LSWCTN1]

The picture is a bit too grainy to discern properly. Do you think the top digit looks like the thumb tucking in rather than the index finger? I think the thumb is to the side but the index finger has got a weird angle - maybe phoenix eye fist?

If you look at the other guy then clearly (to me!) he does not have his thumb in his fist. I wouldn't expect Garrett Gee to be any different.


Cool... my apologies. However you are simply incorrect about the thumb.

i have looked at it again to try to be fair.

i still think that his thumb is inside his closed hand, but i could be wrong

anyway, it not an action shot - its a picture that was taken whilst he was demonstrating the movement to him so if he does/doesnt who cares?

the guy is meant to have some real skills, and supposedly used to invite his students to-be to try their hand with him first. thats not always the way in TMA's anymore

i do think its true that a picture paints a thousand words :D

[Chango]

How many times have you been to SF? Once??? Twice tops?? Because from my experience the only person who actually trained with us consistently from Ohio be it either sparring or skill challenge drills was Mike Mathews. Brad Ryan, and Daniel Hernandez trained as well, but only more recently when they joined the organization.


O.K. I will give the fact that I have not visited the SF location enough to see the training methods! However I can say 1st hand. However when I had a question about regular sparring I was told about "liabilities etc..." and I also witiness conversations about frustrations about not being able to spar etc... on a regular basis. This was from a SF persons mouth! So it's not just me and not a regional thing. I'm not going to call anyone out here.So I will just leave it at that.

I know every time I witnessed and was a part of a "after hour" work out etc...when GMG visited the VTM. For what ever reason sparring was not on the ticket. So it seems from what I gathered sparring and actually full force hitting was not the norm.

So allow me to be clear at this point from what I have experienced there was not enough focus on sparring or real life application. So with that being said I have no issue with the split from a training method perspective. I've enjoyed my training in HFY but I personally feel that there are limitations to the training methods I have experienced.


As for our Phoenix school, they mixed it up with the Texas school you mentioned. And who got hurt??? Not anyone from the Phoenix school.


Are you serious???? for real???? I think you better clearify how the injury occured. I know you are not trying lie flat out on this board about a Phoenix person causing a injury to a Texas student! That's really low.



Not interested in doing damage?? Are you sure about that?

As for Marcelo's actions, remember it was your Sifu who brought him into the fold. Don't try and blame Marcelo's actions on us. Same for Ghostdog and Cimaroon.



I should be clear I was not blaming the rest of you for "Marcelo's actions." I was simply expressing a few issues that I had with his and others actions. I also started to air a few issues I have with HFY. I think you should reread my post I was simply calling things the way that I see them. I wish HFY plenty of sucess.




We just believe in SF that if you want to learn ground fighting that you should go to an actual jiu jitsu school. We don't try and sell a whole program to students when they enter our door to study WC.



I think this has been a huge issue for me personally. HFY never did offer a ground game however it was hinted that there was one. It was even said that there was one in the book. "Complete Wing chun" (I could be wrong)

At the VTM we have experienced lineages that did address ground fighting. I mean beyond "do this or that to prevent being taken down" That was why I was very happy to offer my students ground fighting skills from the "Out side the box" approach.

I'm very happy with what HFY has offered me and may offer me in the future. However at this point for further growth I'm looking in a direction that will offer a more live and free energy approach. As for the content of what I have to offer the public. I'm very happy to be able to expand and offer my students a view of the many experiences I have had outside of the HFY model as well along with the HFY info I have to offer. For me it allows me to have more of a world view (if you will ) in terms of wing chun. But that's another topic all together.


As for Marcelo's actions


First of all, I'm not writting as a HFY man. I'm writting as a person who, as happened to many others in Rio, was deceived by your sifu, Benny Meng. As a person who put a lot of money and energy in a project that in the end has proven to be a personal, egoic and egoistical project of your sifu, Benny Meng. I'm writting, Chango, as someone whom Benny Meng addressed on the face as his "favorite student in Brazil" but behind the back was called many a bad name.

I could be writting as a HFY man, if, and only if, your sifu had taught me HFY. Instead, he only shew us something after GM Gee confirmed that he'd come to Rio in September 2007. Oh, and there's one detail here: he wanted us to learn by watching a DVD so that he could only make some adjustments personally. The same thing, btw, that he's doing right now with Alex Magnos, who proudly beats on his chest and says he's got more DVDs than we in Rio have, since he's got everything that was taught in SF until Benny quit the Association.

Great deal? Nope. I'm quite convinced one cannot learn HFY (or any other MA) through video/book. So, how come someone acknowledge someone else as a MA expert, if the later was but a virtual student throughout his life?-


Once again more rumors half trues and hate! If a video tape is being used to help in teaching that is no big deal! Like you said yourself Sifu Meng is visiting him. DVD and tapes are great training aids. If Meng Sifu is no longer a HFY member he is not bound by the no video policy. BTW I thought you said the Meng Sifu was teaching other things instead of HFY. So are the Video's HFY or the "other stuff" LOL!

Marcelo You don't have to answer that! I will leave at this you are upset with Sifu Meng and Sifu Magnos becuase of thier sucess in Brazil. You can't stand it that Sifu Magnos is doing well and growing. So you are doing what ever it takes to try to damage this sucess. Just like you said elsewhere your are loosing members and he is gaining members! I see nothing but a hater So stop hating!


Benny's method is like first you have to learn how the others fight so that one day maybe you'll learn how to fight as a Wing Chun guy. GM Gee's method is: first you stablish your Wing Chun identity, then you (must) start proving yourself as a WC guy against other fighters.


point well missed what you have dubbed as "Benny's" method the approach is to give the begginner basic generic fighting skills first then give him/her a Wing chun I.D. I think your the one with a pride issue here! LOL!


See? You guys are blinded by pride. As the kid from Fortaleza reported, Benny convinces you easily that you are the only ones who have "all the pieces of the puzzle". You are so blessed, aren't you?



Stop hating!!! No it's not pride simply put as the VTM we have been blessed with the offerings of many lineages and it does offer a very unique Point Of View. Yes blessed we are and we are willing to share!


What backgroud information do you have and what are the other larger issues? If you really did not want to cause demage to the HFY lineage, why should you insinuate there are things still worse than those that are declared at the VTM Brazilian website (which, BTW, are but the reflection of Benny Meng's thoughts and attitudes)? You simply repeat the same thing that's written there - "there are more horrible things, but since we do not want to cause demage, we will keep them for our own".

I will only say this once more. I do not wish to cause harm to the HFY lineage. I'm saying that I do have back ground info on some of these issues and I do have other issues that are not being expressed. So for clearity I will simply say that on both sides of this issue the complete picture has not been brought to the public! I'm not saying that my Sifu did not make any mistakes but I also want to make it clear that there are many others who aren't being honest have been completely dishonest and have purposly misrepresenting the facts.

That's all I have to say about that! ;)

[duende]

O.K. I will give the fact that I have not visited the SF location enough to see the training methods! However I can say 1st hand. However when I had a question about regular sparring I was told about "liabilities etc..." and I also witiness conversations about frustrations about not being able to spar etc... on a regular basis. This was from a SF persons mouth! So it's not just me and not a regional thing. I'm not going to call anyone out here.So I will just leave it at that.


Rents in SF are extremely expensive. Therefore we just don't have the space to have wooden dummys, angry bobs, a full length mirror, and a safe enough area for anything more than light to medium contact sparring.

We've had some close calls with heavier sparring, so for that we train in one of my brother's backyards. They trade off every other month or so. Sometimes we also go to the park, which I personally prefer because we get to touch hands with other MA's. Especially here in SF where training in the park is the norm.

You are very fortunate to have a huge training facility at your disposal. We had to figure out work arounds.

As for the frustrations you mention. Yeah... we lost a lot of freedoms when GM Gee decided to go public. Liabilities etc.. were never as much a concern when we were a private school. However, now we have a solution that accommodates the way we like to train.



I know every time I witnessed and was a part of a "after hour" work out etc...when GMG visited the VTM. For what ever reason sparring was not on the ticket. So it seems from what I gathered sparring and actually full force hitting was not the norm.

So allow me to be clear at this point from what I have experienced there was not enough focus on sparring or real life application. So with that being said I have no issue with the split from a training method perspective. I've enjoyed my training in HFY but I personally feel that there are limitations to the training methods I have experienced.


This is a legitimate frustration. But I will only add that how much can GM Gee really show you in just a couple of days? Especially when he has to make sure and double check that what he taught the last time is still on target.

These are the problems of long distance learning. I think it was always the plan that the regional instructor would then take over and help everyone transfer the knowledge into live applications and sparring.

Unfortunately I feel that the real issues of dealing with and overcoming long distance training, got put on the back burner when other issues came to light.

But I'm just one instructor/student. I tried to help make everything work the best I could. I still consider some of the VTM people my friends. Hope they feel the same way too.



Are you serious???? for real???? I think you better clearify how the injury occured. I know you are not trying lie flat out on this board about a Phoenix person causing a injury to a Texas student! That's really low.


It occurred when a Texas student was sparring with an AZ student. No ill-will was intended. Accidents do happen. But it proves my point that the AZ students spar and in this case weren't the ones who got hurt. Brad runs an excellent school. Daniel's achievements more than demonstrate this. I was not trying to take any of that away by writing what I did. I thought I had already clarified that.





I think this has been a huge issue for me personally. HFY never did offer a ground game however it was hinted that there was one. It was even said that there was one in the book. "Complete Wing chun" (I could be wrong)

At the VTM we have experienced lineages that did address ground fighting. I mean beyond "do this or that to prevent being taken down" That was why I was very happy to offer my students ground fighting skills from the "Out side the box" approach.

I'm very happy with what HFY has offered me and may offer me in the future. However at this point for further growth I'm looking in a direction that will offer a more live and free energy approach. As for the content of what I have to offer the public. I'm very happy to be able to expand and offer my students a view of the many experiences I have had outside of the HFY model as well along with the HFY info I have to offer. For me it allows me to have more of a world view (if you will ) in terms of wing chun. But that's another topic all together.


We do have ground strategy and tactics. And as Marcelo can vouch, they were very effective in Brazil at the seminar there.

I can't help but feel that you lost out on much of the information that was taught to the regional schools. Your statement regarding "live and free energy" makes me think that you never got a chance to truly understand the concept of YING and how it is only the first step in learning CHUNG, LAU, SAAT, and FA.

Without Ying there is no point of reference. No structural energy to draw upon. No breaks to hit and safety belt to rely on when needed.

If the student can not express Ying, then there is no point in progressing to Chung or Lau etc... because the body mechanics required are not present or developed yet... only just illusions. No solid foundation to build upon.

But after all that... here's the rub. YING is ENERGY! :eek: :D Not only that... it is LIVE energy. :)

I hope this gives you some deeper insight into how and when 'live energy" is taught. Sure we mix it up and do San Sau/San Da. But to be able to truly express core HFY structural energy and body mechanics... one must ultimately follow these progressions.

Otherwise, one just ends up with distortions of body mechanics and therefore requires more techniques, more time and/or trickery to overcome oncoming threats and energy.

Btw.. I say this because of real first hand experience.

Anyways, I am confident that you will be a great teacher and MA regardless of which direction you follow.

Unless there's anymore to be said, I think I'm done with this thread.

Best to all.

[Wayfaring]

So since everyone is talking about YouTube, and Benny Meng, and the Houston TX school under him ran by Brad Ryan I ran across some video from last year where they hosted a Bullshido throwdown. It has videos. It's not HFY on video, but the guy Daniel has studied HFY under Benny Meng - he does local small show fights I think.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76234

[Tom Kagan]

... but the guy Daniel has studied HFY under Benny Meng ...

Daniel is a student of Tom Dinklage of Katy, TX. Tom's striking skills come mostly from Karate.

Tharuz is a silly, misguided kid who managed to age into an adult.

Eno had no martial arts training at all. He played football.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Chango, you wrote:


Marcelo You don't have to answer that! I will leave at this you are upset with Sifu Meng and Sifu Magnos becuase of thier sucess in Brazil. You can't stand it that Sifu Magnos is doing well and growing. So you are doing what ever it takes to try to damage this sucess. Just like you said elsewhere your are loosing members and he is gaining members! I see nothing but a hater So stop hating!

Man, you do not know what you're talking about.
I am NOT and I do not intend to be a HFY teacher. I love martial arts and I've been into it for 30 years, but I simply have other priorities for the time being.
As you probably know, I'm a federal judge and a post-grade Law professor in my Country. Even if I could, at this particular moment I would not have time to teach HFYWC.

But let me tell you this: even not really willing, I and my friend Jacs have given some HFY lessons to an increasing number of people, four to three years ago. Do you know why? Because your Sifu, Benny Meng, was so obsessed with the idea of numbers, and quantity, and growing, and money-making, that it was mandatory that his "special students" (my case, as well as Jacs') started teaching HFY even without knowing HFY. If we wanted to keep on learning what we believed to be HFY, then we had to pass on what we knew by then to people who shew interest in having Benny as a Sifu. Sounds crazy, hum? That's why he so quickly introduced his "Shaolin Wing Chun" thing in Brazil: since we all had a solid M.A. backgroung before we met him, Benny made us believe there was an all-inclusive HFY program, sanctionated by GM Gee, that was supposed to cover all kinds of M.A. techniques. BTW, Alex Magnos was among the people that joined Benny's organization through our hands. So he used what we knew (a bunch different of M.A.) in order to have us teaching what we did not know (HFY) and have people joining his parallel organization.
Can you grasp the idea, Chango? The man is really a fox, isn't he?

So, Chango, this is the point: I don't teach martial arts. So, why would I care about (1) Meng's organization "growing" and (2) some suckers that believe they'll have "all the pieces of the puzzle"?

What I do care is about finding a few sincere people who are truly interested in learning HFY from GM Gee. The reason is one and only (and simple): bringing GM Gee to Rio is not that easy. There are the costs (we are gentlemen, and, just like we used to do with Benny, we'd like to cover the Grandmaster's travel expenses) and there are the logistic necessities. So, the more sincere people join us, the easier things get.

You wrote:

BTW I thought you said the Meng Sifu was teaching other things instead of HFY. So are the Video's HFY or the "other stuff" LOL!

Maybe you did not have time to read what I wrote. I clearly wrote that Benny only taught us some real HFY after GM Gee confirmed his Sept 2007 trip to Brazil. Then he sent us a DVD, told us to watch it and mimic the techniques so that he could make some corrections and have us "quickly prepared for GM Gee".


If Meng Sifu is no longer a HFY member he is not bound by the no video policy.

So you are saying that he feels free to break his word, aren't you?
This does not surprise me. Benny is not the kind of man that really follows his own advices, specially those related to Chinese philosophy. What you're saying proves that, these days, my friend Jonathan's thoughts about "once a Todai, always a Todai" does not even apply to some well-known people who proudly proclaim that they belong to Chinese philosophers lineage... Nothing surprising, indeed.

Peace out,

Marcelo

[Wayfaring]

Daniel is a student of Tom Dinklage of Katy, TX. Tom's striking skills come mostly from Karate.

Tharuz is a silly, misguided kid who managed to age into an adult.

Eno had no martial arts training at all. He played football.

Whatever, Kagan. Daniel is known to most HFY people as a HFY student under Brad Ryan for the last 4 yrs at least. Brad is currently aligned with Benny Meng. Many people who study HFY have other martial arts backgrounds. He started MMA not while a student of Dinklage, but under Brad Ryan. Nice try, though.

Nobody said anything about the skills of the opponents there, but there is video up - the throwdown was hosted by a WCK guy - Brad Ryan, and his student is sparring, or doing what Bullshido calls a "throwdown". If you can't see any WCK in the footwork or striking, then check your glasses. Or learn something.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Marcelo, your latest post is absolutely astounding! And it confirms everything I (and plenty of other people) already knew about Benny Meng. Meaning that it simply supplies the current details of the kinds of incidents/trickery/manipulation/opportunism we're used to seeing associated with Meng.

Jeez, what you described in that post is pathetic; and quite frankly, it's hard not to believe you. What you described going on down in Brazil just sounds so much like what has gone on here in the United States with this guy.

Different names, places, dates - same old story.

[Tom Kagan]

If you can't see any WCK in the footwork or striking, then check your glasses. Or learn something.

I made no comment as to the contents of the video.

My remarks are as to what the person who put up the videos represents himself as. He has not represented himself with other training. So, if you have issue with this, I suggest taking up with him.

[t_niehoff]

Nobody said anything about the skills of the opponents there, but there is video up - the throwdown was hosted by a WCK guy - Brad Ryan, and his student is sparring, or doing what Bullshido calls a "throwdown". If you can't see any WCK in the footwork or striking, then check your glasses. Or learn something.

This is the kind of thing I find amusing -- people look at clips and say things like "they see WCK footwork" or "WCK striking". What the hell does that mean? That they see various aspects that are WCK-like? Are any straight punches "WCK striking"? Or shuffle steps "WCK footwork"?

People can always look at ANYONE - even a nonWCK person - sparring and point out some things that look similar to WCK. That's not meaningful.

What is meaningful is whether or not the person in question is doing what they train to do as they train to do it. That is what shows whether they are using their training.

So, is THAT how HFY approaches fighting?

And, let me ask another question, if someone wants to kickbox, don't you think there are better, PROVEN methods of kickboxing than WCK?

[Chango]

Duende,

Let me start 1 st by saying I have always and still have great respect for you and I do still see you as my friend and kung fu family.

I do understand and apply the 5 wheel concept. ( Ying, Cheung, Fa, Lau, Faat) Like I said my concern was never the system of HFY. My issue was in the Faat (method). As I've said before my actual family has alot of boxers and wrestler in it and I'm very familiar with a fighters culture and I did not see a simular culture in the HFY family under GMG. I will admit that I have not visited SF enough to know what goes on in the Saan Da training.

You do bring up a interesting point in that the long distance issue was a problem. It's been ten years plus since I first met GMG and started learning HFY and regardless of the circumstances. I had to find ground game answers elsewhere. If you ask me if you leave any element of combat unchecked it's like entering a fight with out one of your limbs.

That being said I have to thank God for what Sifu Meng offered as a "outside the box" training becuase on the few occasions I was tested in front of my students by the local MMA schools. It offered answers when my life was on the line as a bouncer. It can be seen also in application when Daniel is fighting in the video. At this point I think alot people missed the point becuase they only see the technique and shape but not the concept and principles of it. But that is another discussion altogether.

Marcelo- On the private forum of HFY108 you openly complain about the "sucess of Meng and Magnos" and the lack of sucess elsewhere. Your hate is evident. I will say it again any sucess for them drives you crazy! let it go man.

Victor - 'Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.(Abraham Lincoln) All doubt has been removed keep on talking!!! LOL!

[Wayfaring]

I made no comment as to the contents of the video.

My remarks are as to what the person who put up the videos represents himself as. He has not represented himself with other training. So, if you have issue with this, I suggest taking up with him.

If you actually read the link on Bullshido it says "Meng's Martial Arts", and mentions the school under them hosting the throwdown, and Daniel as a student of that school. If you have a problem with reading comprehension, take it up with the people that taught you to read.

[Wayfaring]

This is the kind of thing I find amusing -- people look at clips and say things like "they see WCK footwork" or "WCK striking". What the hell does that mean? That they see various aspects that are WCK-like? Are any straight punches "WCK striking"? Or shuffle steps "WCK footwork"?

Well, let me see. If the person doing the footwork, striking, punching is one that studies WCK, and in sparring looks like other people who train the same thing, then I would say yes.

I'm glad to provide amusement for you, but mostly that's due to your own imperceptions. In other words, your amusement is all internal.



People can always look at ANYONE - even a nonWCK person - sparring and point out some things that look similar to WCK. That's not meaningful.

And people can look at WCK people and say "that's not WCK". So what?



What is meaningful is whether or not the person in question is doing what they train to do as they train to do it. That is what shows whether they are using their training.

The person in question trains MMA with a WCK background and fights in local small shows in TX.

So, is THAT how HFY approaches fighting?



And, let me ask another question, if someone wants to kickbox, don't you think there are better, PROVEN methods of kickboxing than WCK?
"If someone wants to kickbox".

How about if someone wants to "fight"? That's more to the point. Why would someone want to "kickbox"?

[t_niehoff]

Well, let me see. If the person doing the footwork, striking, punching is one that studies WCK, and in sparring looks like other people who train the same thing, then I would say yes.


The trouble is that people can "study" (what a silly word, btw -- do you study basketball or boxing?) one thing and then when they spar do something altogther different. If that is the case, would you still say "yes"?



I'm glad to provide amusement for you, but mostly that's due to your own imperceptions. In other words, your amusement is all internal.


I'm not sure that "imperception" is a word. I find that amusing too.



And people can look at WCK people and say "that's not WCK". So what?


I don't care so much about what is or is not WCK, rather I am interested in whether they are doing what they train to do as they train to do it. So my question is: is that what they are training to do/how they are training to fight? Or, are they doing something else?



The person in question trains MMA with a WCK background and fights in local small shows in TX.

So, is THAT how HFY approaches fighting?


OK. So he has a "WCK background" -- I guess that means he used to practice WCK and now he trains MMA. What I find disingenuous is your assertion that he is using WCK in the fight. I think he's using pure MMA and no WCK whatsoever. You simply point to one or two things that look similar to WCK and call it WCK -- my point is that those things are pure MMA (I could find MMA fighters with no WCK training doing the exact same things).



"If someone wants to kickbox".

How about if someone wants to "fight"? That's more to the point. Why would someone want to "kickbox"?

Kickboxing is fighting. Kickboxing is a certain approach to fighting, different in kind from WCK's approach to fighting, that uses different tools (skills, tactics) to implement that approach.

[Wayfaring]

The trouble is that people can "study" (what a silly word, btw -- do you study basketball or boxing?) one thing and then when they spar do something altogther different. If that is the case, would you still say "yes"?

Study, train, whatever. Pick a word you like better. If a person does drills to learn structure and principles, then spars and applies them in a live environment, guess what?

"Yes".

Oh, but that completely defeats your whole line of logic about only needing to fight to learn. Well, that's because it's wrong. There's more than one way to learn.



I'm not sure that "imperception" is a word. I find that amusing too.

I'll provide some synonyms for you so you can pick one you like better:
misconception
delusion
fantasy

happy now ;)



I don't care so much about what is or is not WCK, rather I am interested in whether they are doing what they train to do as they train to do it. So my question is: is that what they are training to do/how they are training to fight? Or, are they doing something else?

I can't speak to the daily training regimen there, but it involves live MMA. He might even sometimes do *gasp* FORMS.




OK. So he has a "WCK background" -- I guess that means he used to practice WCK and now he trains MMA. What I find disingenuous is your assertion that he is using WCK in the fight. I think he's using pure MMA and no WCK whatsoever. You simply point to one or two things that look similar to WCK and call it WCK -- my point is that those things are pure MMA (I could find MMA fighters with no WCK training doing the exact same things).

No, that means Daniel is a current student of Brad Ryan who fights in local MMA shows. I know even though I have repeated this about 5 times already on this thread, it's really hard for you to comprehend. Should I type it slower? He was a student during the throwdown, he has been for years before that, and he still is. Chango on this thread can verify this, duende can, etc. And actually unlike you he didn't just learn in 2 weeks of seminars then put together an underground sparring club, but has been practicing for years.

Whatever you "think" really is inconsequential and has no bearing on what actually "is". Maybe you ought to "rethink" that in a MMA environment things may look a little different than in drills, and that is what happens when training WCK for a MMA environment. You don't seem to have trouble grasping this with your fellow Chu student Alan Orr. What's the problem understanding it here? Oh, right - you hate HFY and anyone associated.




Kickboxing is fighting. Kickboxing is a certain approach to fighting, different in kind from WCK's approach to fighting, that uses different tools (skills, tactics) to implement that approach.

Kickboxing is a "sport" that involves realistic athletic hand to hand combat like "boxing". It also has no more association to the clip we are discussing than water polo or tennis.

[t_niehoff]

Study, train, whatever. Pick a word you like better. If a person does drills to learn structure and principles, then spars and applies them in a live environment, guess what?

"Yes".

Oh, but that completely defeats your whole line of logic about only needing to fight to learn. Well, that's because it's wrong. There's more than one way to learn.


I am talking about doing what you train to do. If you drill one thing and then do another, how is this good training? Shouldn't you be drilling what you intend to be doing?

In terms of developing physical skills, there is not "more than one way to learn". Your body learns what you practice doing.



I'll provide some synonyms for you so you can pick one you like better:
misconception
delusion
fantasy

happy now ;)


I just like using genuine english words. But speaking of delusion and fantasy, isn't that precisely what training X to do Y is?



I can't speak to the daily training regimen there, but it involves live MMA. He might even sometimes do *gasp* FORMS.


OK, he might give himself coffee enemas too -- what does that prove?



No, that means Daniel is a current student of Brad Ryan who fights in local MMA shows. I know even though I have repeated this about 5 times already on this thread, it's really hard for you to comprehend. Should I type it slower? He was a student during the throwdown, he has been for years before that, and he still is. Chango on this thread can verify this, duende can, etc. And actually unlike you he didn't just learn in 2 weeks of seminars then put together an underground sparring club, but has been practicing for years.


I didn't learn in 2 weeks of seminars -- why are you making stuff up?

I am not doubting that he trained at some point in WCK. My point is that he is doing solely MMA on the tape. No WCK.



Whatever you "think" really is inconsequential and has no bearing on what actually "is". Maybe you ought to "rethink" that in a MMA environment things may look a little different than in drills, and that is what happens when training WCK for a MMA environment. You don't seem to have trouble grasping this with your fellow Chu student Alan Orr. What's the problem understanding it here? Oh, right - you hate HFY and anyone associated.


I don't "hate" anyone or anything. And even if I did, that doesn't have any significance on whether or not my points are valid.

There was no WCK in that clip -- none. It's not a matter of it not looking like the WCK drills, it isn't WCK. It's pure MMA.



Kickboxing is a "sport" that involves realistic athletic hand to hand combat like "boxing". It also has no more association to the clip we are discussing than water polo or tennis.

Sub grappling is a sport too -- but it is also an approach to fighting (take him down, control him, and submit him). The sport is what permits us to practice (do) our approach against others (and good, competent fighters) and so get better at it. It's the same with boxing or kickboxing. Sport and approach. That's the sport model: take an approach to fighting and make it a sport so that you can really do it.

Just as sub grappling has specific tools to implement its approach to fighting (which are different than other approaches), so does kickboxing and boxing.

[Tom Kagan]

If you actually read the link on Bullshido it says "Meng's Martial Arts", and mentions the school under them hosting the throwdown, and Daniel as a student of that school. If you have a problem with reading comprehension, take it up with the people that taught you to read.

I've also made no comment as to where the throwdown was hosted.

Why are you acting so testy? If you have a problem with your anxiety medication, take it up with your doctor.

[Wayfaring]

I've also made no comment as to where the throwdown was hosted.

Why are you acting so testy? If you have a problem with your anxiety medication, take it up with your doctor.

Not acting testy. I stated he was a HFY student. You immediately discounted that fact trying to show he was not, or primarily from a karate lineage. I am just correcting disinformation. It's a public service.

So why exactly are your pink satin lacies all twisted up?

[Wayfaring]

I am talking about doing what you train to do. If you drill one thing and then do another, how is this good training? Shouldn't you be drilling what you intend to be doing?

In terms of developing physical skills, there is not "more than one way to learn". Your body learns what you practice doing.

Back to skill construction 101 for TN. Isolate a technique, train it in a low resistance environment, and add various degrees of "aliveness". Isolating a technique and training it in a low resistance environment is not doing something different than you train to do.

The fact you don't comprehend this makes me question what you really do when you say you are "fighting". If you never train like this, then your "fighting" has probably not improved in the last 5 years. Which probably makes sense - that's the difference between training with a competant instructor and having an underground fight club.



I am not doubting that he trained at some point in WCK. My point is that he is doing solely MMA on the tape. No WCK.

No, he is doing alive sparring with low level opponents. Which can happen in any environment. The fact that you view it as "MMA" is telling as to where your fantasies lie.



I don't "hate" anyone or anything. And even if I did, that doesn't have any significance on whether or not my points are valid.

Sure it does. Your points are invalid. Your attachments are why.



There was no WCK in that clip -- none. It's not a matter of it not looking like the WCK drills, it isn't WCK. It's pure MMA.

So you don't believe what your fellow Chu student Alan teaches as "body mechanics"? Or you say that isn't WCK?

Not that I really care what you view in that clip. That's how HFY people spar in that kind of environment. More or less. Better skills or worse, or whatever.



Sub grappling is a sport too -- but it is also an approach to fighting (take him down, control him, and submit him). The sport is what permits us to practice (do) our approach against others (and good, competent fighters) and so get better at it. It's the same with boxing or kickboxing. Sport and approach. That's the sport model: take an approach to fighting and make it a sport so that you can really do it.

Just as sub grappling has specific tools to implement its approach to fighting (which are different than other approaches), so does kickboxing and boxing.
Sure sports are realistic training environments that are mostly better than mutually compliant drills w/o alive scaling. Again zero bearing on this clip / convo.

[Wayfaring]

Let me start 1 st by saying I have always and still have great respect for you and I do still see you as my friend and kung fu family.


Yeah that's true for all of us regardless of where future paths take us. I suppose in a very large and loose sense that's true of all the other jabeeps on this forum as well.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I must say, Wayfaring, that I'm really enjoying the way you're handling Mr. Chain Punch Poster on this thread. ;)

Not that I'm putting down Aaron Baum (Alan Orr's student); not at all, since he does a good job in this fight - but it's particularly amusing to watch this and then simultaneously understand that
it completely undercuts all of Terence's arguments on this thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49tbIUy5Qd0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gR3beL5CWo

[Tom Kagan]

Not acting testy. I stated he was a HFY student. You immediately discounted that fact trying to show he was not, or primarily from a karate lineage. I am just correcting disinformation. It's a public service.

So why exactly are your pink satin lacies all twisted up?

I did not discount anything. The person who put up the videos does not represent himself as a HFY student. As for you now saying you were not acting testy, the very proof of the contrary is within your responses to me: 1) Your implications my statement of information provided of the people is somehow an attack on your style, 2) Your jumping to conclusions that I somehow made a comment on the the contents of the video, 3) Your assumption I somehow said the host of that throwdown was somehow not the host, 4) choosing words like 'disinformation' instead of 'incorrect'.

Somewhere within the siege mentality of your responses to me, you did manage to get across you believe one of the pieces of information I provided is incorrect. That's cool; I have no problem with disagreement. I will simply ask the person involved. He is an active poster and a sponsor of the Bullshido website.

[Tom Kagan]

I must say, Wayfaring, that I'm really enjoying the way you're handling Mr. Chain Punch Poster on this thread.

Not that I'm putting down Aaron Baum (Alan Orr's student); not at all, since he does a good job in this fight - but it's particularly amusing to watch this and then simultaneously understand that
it completely undercuts all of Terence's arguments on this thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49tbIUy5Qd0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gR3beL5CWo

To be fair to Alan and Aaron (since they both post here), I don't think their training methods should be brought into this discussion to be used as pawns to try and prove or disprove a point which neither of them is trying to make. They can speak for themselves.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Tom, you really need to get with it. I like what Aaron Baum does in this fight, and I do see how he's trying to use wing chun in the fight. Is it the end-all-and-be-all of how to try and use wing chun? No.

But the man does a good job. And I give him credit.

But my point here on this thread is that the very things that Niehoff tries to say about the HFY guy who appears on the "throw-down" vid could easily be said about Aaron Baum - according to Niehoff...

but shouldn't be said. Because Niehoff doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Tom Kagan]

Tom, you really need to get with it. I like what Aaron Baum does in this fight, and I do see how he's trying to use wing chun in the fight. Is it the end-all-and-be-all of how to try and use wing chun? No.

But my point here on this thread is that the very things that Niehoff tries to say about the HFY guy who appears on the "throw-down" vid could easily be said about Aaron Baum - according to Niehoff...

but shouldn't be said. Because Niehoff doesn't know what he's talking about.

Since it seems appropriate to state this here too: I made no comment regarding Aaron's and Alan's clips, nor comment on your thoughts as what you can or cannot observe within the results of their training. So, it is unclear to me where you feel I am out of step and need to "get with".

I won't comment on what Terrence knows or does not know, but from my perspective, to make such a similar comment regarding Aaron's and Alan's clips would first require some commentary on their training methods and whether they deviate significantly from what is shown in their competition clips or not. Thus, I felt compelled to point out they both post here and can speak for themselves.

[Tom Kagan]

i still think that his thumb is inside his closed hand, but i could be wrong

After sacrificing a chicken to the photoshop gods, I can state unequivocally you are incorrect about the thumb placement in that picture. What you are seeing is a lossy compression noise artifact reflecting off the nail bed of his index finger held in a phoenix eye fist.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Chango:

You're distorting my words. I will never complain that Benny's/Magnos' organization is growing. In fact, I see it is growing and gaining visibility in the North of Brazil, but that is a fact to be pointed out, not a complaint. If there's one thing that I could complain in this regard is that part of the money that those gentlemen used to promote their organization was taken from my wallet; but since such a complaint would not bring my money and energy back, I thought I should put it to rest.

My point in hfy108 was that the Brazilian HFY group quickly decreased in numbers "after Alex Magnos was authorized to run a Hung Fa Kwoon and started disgracing our art" (sic).
So, since "it feels like I've wasted some money and years while learning Benny's Shaolin Wing Chun (and believing that was HFYWC)" (sic), as well as since "Benny was always very incisive about the SF staff being against the idea of growing HFY in South America" (sic), I was wondering whether the "guys from SF are willing to help us to rebuild the Brazilian chapter of the WHFYWCKFA" (sic).

Now, after a brother from SF answered my post, it got clear that Benny was once again lying when he tried to throw us against the SF brothers. But that was not a surprise.

[Chango]

O.K. Marcelo! :rolleyes:
I hope you get all of the hate out so you can move on! ;)

[Marcelo-RJ]

Ok, and I hope you learn how to use better arguments when you get into a fine discussion like this.

Be well.

[Wayfaring]

Somewhere within the siege mentality of your responses to me, you did manage to get across you believe one of the pieces of information I provided is incorrect. That's cool; I have no problem with disagreement. I will simply ask the person involved. He is an active poster and a sponsor of the Bullshido website.

All right, Lord Clark. I'm glad you can raise your head up out of the bunker with all of the enemy fire around you to be able to PM Daniel on Bullshido and ask if he trains HFY. Did you need covering fire for that?

[Ignores other paragraph with attempted troll into Shaw brothers territory. And almost resists temptation to insert Steven Seagal "Under Siege" references].

[Wayfaring]

But my point here on this thread is that the very things that Niehoff tries to say about the HFY guy who appears on the "throw-down" vid could easily be said about Aaron Baum - according to Niehoff...


Could it be that people who are sparring an in alive environment applying WCK concepts and skills actually might look a little alike?

No, couldn't be. The universe would dissolve.

[Wayfaring]

After sacrificing a chicken to the photoshop gods, I can state unequivocally you are incorrect about the thumb placement in that picture. What you are seeing is a lossy compression noise artifact reflecting off the nail bed of his index finger held in a phoenix eye fist.

Kagan showing solid evidence that an4l retentiveness can at times be helpful. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ha! Ha! Ha! :)

That's for your last three posts, Wayfaring. :D :D :D