OT: Racially Biased Tests?

[Facepalm]

I know this is a touchy question but I really dont get it.

Exactly how are tests racially biased?

I am trying to understand how exactly a multiple choice test like the SAT or the one given to the New Haven firemen could be racially biased.

I have yet to hear anything convincing on this subject.

When I researched it the example of a biased question was an analogie SAT question.

SEA LION: OCEAN

A)CAR:HIGHWAY
B)MOOSE:FOREST
C)CAMERA:PICTURE
D)ELEVATOR:BUILDING

The answer is B but if someone is from the inner city the article alleges they would have no knowledge of Moose or forests and would think the answer is A because thats something they have experience with.

I just dont buy that. We are all thinking individuals and we should all know that sea lions and moose are both animals and that the ocean and a forest are both where those animals live I dont care how detached from the natural world a person can be.

I would like some help understanding how a multiple choice exam could be racially biased when the subjects are made available to all people taking the test prior to the exam.

[David Jamieson]

What if the test had subjects that only dealt with the intricacies of the pantheon of hindu gods and all questions about agriculture were related to effective management of rice paddies and all questions about wildlife were pertaining only to those species that were indigenous to say, Australasia?

a good example of where it becomes racial or culturally relevant is in the movie 'slum dog millionaire' where we see quite clearly that the questions they ask in the Indian version of -who wants to be a millionaire- are a world apart from the questions they ask on the american version and different again from the british version and so on.

standardized tests must apply to everyone that sits through the curriculum.
If there is a lack of relevance to the person writing the test, then the test has been formed incorrectly because the person writing it should have been exposed to all materials referred to within the regular curriculum.

[hskwarrior]

woooowwwwww.....

and people really asked me what the Hung Mun had to do with southern gung fu :confused::confused::confused:

[Facepalm]

well If I knew the test was on Hindu gods and rice paddy agriculture and species from asia before the exam that is what I would study for.

Tests are designed to test you on a certain subject.

In the SATs case, on the very basics of what America expects high school students to have learned in an American public school

In the New Haven firefighters test, Im sure it was on things that firefighters should know.

I can definitely understand that you could deliberately design a test to be biased against people from different parts of the world but especially in the firefighter test where the people had been working firefighters prior to taking a test for promotion. They all had fair access to the information and experiences required to pass it.

In the SAT I know that much care is taken in designing the test to have questions that are pretty cosmopolitan.

Ive heard that it could be in the language of the questions. Does anyone have a good example of this?

Thanks though DJ that really gives me food for thought:)

[Lucas]

So wait, are you telling me that cars dont live on the highway?

[lkfmdc]

I grew up in a concrete covered city, I never saw a moose, but I would have known as a kid the answer...

[Lucas]

isnt that what all those years of school are for, you know, to teach you about the woods and the oceans. Science class covers that. If people actually pay attention, do their school work, and read a few **** books, they wouldnt have a problem connecting the dots between moose and forest.

i blame michael jackson

[David Jamieson]

Indeed.

If Moose were addressed in teh curriculum, then there is no issue with the question and the person or persons complaining about it are ignorant as stumps.

However, if the subject is never dealt with in the curriculum, then it is an unfair and biased question.

All tests should be formed according to the curriculum that has been studied which is also most likely standardized.

[IronWeasel]

isnt that what all those years of school are for, you know, to teach you about the woods and the oceans. Science class covers that. If people actually pay attention, do their school work, and read a few **** books, they wouldnt have a problem connecting the dots between moose and forest.

i blame michael jackson



Yeah, if you can't connect Moose and Forest, you're not URBAN...you're Retarded.

[lkfmdc]

says the guy from OHIO!

:D

[andyhaas]

When I researched it the example of a biased question was an analogie SAT question.

SEA LION: OCEAN

A)CAR:HIGHWAY
B)MOOSE:FOREST
C)CAMERA:PICTURE
D)ELEVATOR:BUILDING

The answer is B but if someone is from the inner city the article alleges they would have no knowledge of Moose or forests and would think the answer is A because thats something they have experience with.


These things are kindof like ... okay? So you look at the question ... sea lions live in the ocean then come up on land... so a moose lives in the forest, and sometimes goes in t he water ...

A car goes on the highway, and sometimes falls off into the ocean, and sometimes comes up on land ...

A picture comes out of a camera sortof, not the other way around, usually, unless a camera is in a picture (a picture of a camera).

Some buildings have elevators and they usually don't go around ...

So what is the question? It depends ... like if somebody from the inner city doesn't watch T.V. that much or live near the ocean, they might not even know what a sea lion is compared to somebody who lives near the sea.

Therefore, it is sortof socio biased in a way, that depending upon somebody's sociological background, they might have a different answer.

[Lucas]

well the important thing to remember here is; The Alpha Male Sea Lion, has a harrem of wenches.

its true, look it up.

[andyhaas]

BTW, supposedly the New Haven fire-fighters thing:

They didn't give the test for promotion because:

The only guys they figured would have passed at that time were white (the only guys up for promotion), and they were trying to fill racial quotas.

So they didn't even bother giving the test, giving these guys no chance to advance.

That's why it was racist, supposedly.

[David Jamieson]

BTW, supposedly the New Haven fire-fighters thing:

They didn't give the test for promotion because:

The only guys they figured would have passed at that time were white (the only guys up for promotion), and they were trying to fill racial quotas.

So they didn't even bother giving the test, giving these guys no chance to advance.

That's why it was racist, supposedly.

racial quotas as a concept is racist. lol

when you set a criteria based on the colour of someones skin, you are bound to load up on incompetence eventually because corners will be cut to put a visible minority into a position that they very well may not be able to handle effectively.

we have the same kind of crap going on in our city where a specific organization is saying that the corporate executives of many companies are not properly reflecting the diverse population.

Of course, this is nonsense. But nevertheless you have a lot of people who support these things because they aren't comfortable with whatever it is they are uncomfortable with.

Thanks, but I'll take competence over racial quotas any day.

[Mas Judt]

Not true.

The test was given. It was overseen by a racially profiled group of Caucasians, African-Americans and Hispanics. It was specifically designed and managed to NOT be a test where a specific group had an advantage over another.

The test results were thrown out because the minorities performed poorly - except one Hispanic who joined the law suit because he studied hard and did well on the test. And the city was afraid of being sued by the minorities. (what for? not letting those unwilling to apply themselves to be promoted? That has NOTHING to do with race, ad everything to do with the character of the people involved. It is disgusting that this would become a racial issue.)

It is a sad thing that the best, most qualified people are denied the job because of their race or fear of law suits by minorities.

Our politicians are cowardly. They look to curry favor by giving away jobs and largesse - rather than encouraging people to be the best they can be.

[Facepalm]

These things are kindof like ... okay? So you look at the question ... sea lions live in the ocean then come up on land... so a moose lives in the forest, and sometimes goes in t he water ...

A car goes on the highway, and sometimes falls off into the ocean, and sometimes comes up on land ...

A picture comes out of a camera sortof, not the other way around, usually, unless a camera is in a picture (a picture of a camera).

Some buildings have elevators and they usually don't go around ...

So what is the question? It depends ... like if somebody from the inner city doesn't watch T.V. that much or live near the ocean, they might not even know what a sea lion is compared to somebody who lives near the sea.

Therefore, it is sortof socio biased in a way, that depending upon somebody's sociological background, they might have a different answer.

Even if you dont know what a sea lion is youd have to assume its an animal and I mean come on it has the word sea in it so youd have to assume that ocean is supposed to mean where it lives.

[Mas Judt]

racial quotas as a concept is racist. lol

Thanks, but I'll take competence over racial quotas any day.

David just put the truth through Affirmative Action and it got the job...

[doug maverick]

i scored a freaking 1500 on my sat(this is before they change the scoring) and i didnt think it was racially biased at all, just some bull**** excuse some black pol. or activist made up, im sorry but any ****er would know a moose and forest. alot of these kids dont prepare themselves for the SAT, in public schools some take it as a joke.but according to the latest statistics blacks scores are not that far below whites, so obviously the whole racial issue is malarky.

[andyhaas]

Not true.

The test was given. It was overseen by a racially profiled group of Caucasians, African-Americans and Hispanics. It was specifically designed and managed to NOT be a test where a specific group had an advantage over another.

The test results were thrown out because the minorities performed poorly - except one Hispanic who joined the law suit because he studied hard and did well on the test. And the city was afraid of being sued by the minorities. (what for? not letting those unwilling to apply themselves to be promoted? That has NOTHING to do with race, ad everything to do with the character of the people involved. It is disgusting that this would become a racial issue.)

It is a sad thing that the best, most qualified people are denied the job because of their race or fear of law suits by minorities.

Our politicians are cowardly. They look to curry favor by giving away jobs and largesse - rather than encouraging people to be the best they can be.

The point of the lawsuit I think was something like it wasn't given for 3 years since it would give only white guys opportunity to advance. It wasn't the initial results so much or them throwing them out -- it was the 3 year thing supposedly was the problem.

http://www.adversity.net/newhavenfd/default.htm

The upshot is that as of the date of this posting (12-11-06) -- three years after the race-neutral exams were administered -- vacancies have been allowed to go unfilled and are temporarily occupied by firefighters in an 'acting' capacity. Some of the temporary 'acting' firefighters occupying these positions actually failed the Lieutenant and Captain exams, thereby endangering firefighters under their command and the public at large.

[IronWeasel]

I know this is a touchy question but I really dont get it.

Exactly how are tests racially biased?



B)MOOSE:FOREST

.


I've never seen a live moose up close, so I'd probably miss this one. My answer would read more like:


B)MOOSE:SQUIRREL

[IronWeasel]

says the guy from OHIO!

:D



Our slogan is "Akron Happens!"

[BoulderDawg]

I would like to know the racial breakdown of the fire department.

Statistically that makes a difference. If there are only three black guys in the department and none of them passed you could say they just didn't have what it took. However if there are a hundred black guys there and none of them passed I doubt you could make an argument that the test was fair.

I think in the future we will have test scores as only one factor and not an end all be all to who gets promoted........Does anyone here actually think that Bush could have passed some sort of rigid test to be president.

[Mas Judt]

bouldersawg ez: "I think in the future we will have test scores as only one factor and not an end all be all to who gets promoted........Does anyone here actually think that Bush could have passed some sort of rigid test to be president."

The test is NOT the end-all, be-all. You had to qualify to be a firefighter first, have a good record in your job and almost certainly there was an experience requirement. All of those are qualifications to take the test. The test, if anything would level the playing field to the most qualified/capable.

GW Bush had degrees from Harvard and Yale. - his grades were HIGHER than John Kerry's at Yale. John Wayne Taylor - who we have not heard from since he was called up for service after 9/11 worked for W at the statehouse in Texas, and called him one of the most focused, intelligent men he ever met.

I can easily drag out dumb statements that the current 'dear leader' has said, or Nazi Pelosi and I can easily make a case that they incredibly stupid. Which is only true in Pelosi's case. Obama is certainly an intelligent man, just not a very wise man...

[BoulderDawg]

The test is NOT the end-all, be-all. You had to qualify to be a firefighter first, have a good record in your job and almost certainly there was an experience requirement. All of those are qualifications to take the test. The test, if anything would level the playing field to the most qualified/capable.


Maybe but if you don't pass the test then you're out....that's an end all be all in my book.

[andyhaas]

Even if you dont know what a sea lion is youd have to assume its an animal and I mean come on it has the word sea in it so youd have to assume that ocean is supposed to mean where it lives.

As a side note, when I was in college I went to the ocean and was swimming around, and there was this sea lion and I thought, "Great ... let me go see the sea lion."

When I got closer, I was like, "Great ... let me get out of here ASAP before it maybe devours me."

They are kindof scary up close. They are BIG compared to people.

[Lucas]

he was probably mad because he thought you were moving in on his harem of wenches.

[Mas Judt]

Maybe but if you don't pass the test then you're out....that's an end all be all in my book.

You are not 'out' if you fail the test - you just are not qualified for promotion.

By your way of thinking we should allow people who failed the medical boards to be allowed to practice medicine. Or Law Students who failed the Bar exam to practice as lawyers -- why? Because it is more 'fair'? How the heck is it fair to the person who wants to use that service and trust that the person they hire is qualified for the job?

You do realize you make no sense at all...

[BoulderDawg]

Last time I checked being a firefighter did not take years of postgraduate study.

Also I don't hear anyone complaining about the bar or the medical exam. If there was a situation where black people who were qualified to take the test were failing 90+% of the time then it would be time to take a look at that to.

[Mas Judt]

Well, if you actually read the story, the test was designed and monitored to ensure fairness. If someone failed it, it was not due to race. That a disproportionate number of a specific minority did fail, says nothing about the minority in question, but does say a lot about the individuals who failed the test. It said they were not ready for management.

[SavvySavage]

There's an interesting book entitled, "Why America's So Great" by Denesh...something. Look it up. Denesh was an immigrant who came here from India. In the book he calls reparations for slavery a farce. I'm going to sum up his chapter relating to this subject:

He said that racially biased exams are bull because black AMERICANS(to distinguish from blacks from Haiti, Jamaica, Nigeria, etc) score lower than whites and asians on all standardized exams. Even the middle to upper class blacks score under poor whites and asians. Black Americans also score less than black immigrants who moved here from countries just named and more. How can all these tests be so racially biased if blacks from other parts of the world are doing better than black americans?

Note: Obviously not all black americans fall into this category. Most do according to the statistics of this book.

Everyone complains about immigrants but they seem to have the right attitude. They work really hard at crappy jobs and then instill into their children the need to do better. The children of these immigrants end up going to good colleges and holding better jobs than their parents.

I believe that racial quotas are needed because there are so many white people(most of the population) in this country that they'd be in all the schools and have all the jobs. Hear me out before you white people get angry. Racial quotas are supposed to follow percentages. For example, if 80% of job applicants or school applicants are white than that means 80% of the people accepted HAVE TO BE WHITE. If 5% of applicants are black than that means only 5% of the people in the school should be black. Same with asians and everyone else. It isn't racism if most of the people at a job are white because you have to look at the percentages of who applied. Racism occurs when: 80% of white people apply, 10% black apply, 10% everyone else, and then EVERYONE that works there ends up being white. That's racism. It's also racism if 80% of applicants are white, 5% black, but most of the people that end up getting hired are black. That's also racism.

Do you all catch my drift?


The NBA is made up of mostly black males. It's funny that no one cries racism there or that they don't even consider that racism.

Any hypothesis on why back americans score lower than EVERYONE ELSE on tests across the nation? Liberals will talk of societal racism and stupid theories like, "Black males are often percieved as wanting to be rapper thugs so that in turn makes them want to rebel and fail." Someone actually told me this and believed it.

[Mr Punch]

If there was a situation where black people who were qualified to take the test were failing 90+% of the time then it would be time to take a look at that to.'Qualified to take the test'?! :D That's PC bull**** right there! You're either qualified for the job (i.e. you PASS the test) or you're not... you don't need qualifications to take the test!


...I believe that racial quotas are needed because there are so many white people(most of the population) in this country that they'd be in all the schools and have all the jobs. Hear me out before you white people get angry. Racial quotas are supposed to follow percentages. For example, if 80% of job applicants or school applicants are white than that means 80% of the people accepted HAVE TO BE WHITE. If 5% of applicants are black than that means only 5% of the people in the school should be black. Same with asians and everyone else. It isn't racism if most of the people at a job are white because you have to look at the percentages of who applied. Racism occurs when: 80% of white people apply, 10% black apply, 10% everyone else, and then EVERYONE that works there ends up being white. That's racism. It's also racism if 80% of applicants are white, 5% black, but most of the people that end up getting hired are black. That's also racism.

Do you all catch my drift?
So even if not 'enough' black applicants from your 5% pass an already PCized test, then what? The logic behind this system assumes that there will only be the 100% applying for the jobs. If you get 100 people applying for 100 jobs and they can pass the test that system works fine. But it's fantasy: you get 10,000 people for 100 jobs of whom an indefinite number can actually pass the test and an indefinite number will actually be capable of the job out of them... that's where the value judgement at interview comes in, and of course any racial bias... Of course this is a problem, but quotas aren't the answer.

[BoulderDawg]

'Qualified to take the test'?! :D That's PC bull**** right there! You're either qualified for the job (i.e. you PASS the test) or you're not... you don't need qualifications to take the test!

Huh?

That's news to me. There may be some special circumstances where you could actually take the bar exam without a diploma. However I highly doubt you could get the chance to test to put that "MD" at the end of your name without a sheepskin and a hell of a lot of interning!:D

[Lee Chiang Po]

We had this problem in Dallas some years back. They tested the teachers and about 35% of them failed. The majority of those that failed just happened to be black and hispanic. And probably just by coincidence the black and hispanic made up 35% of all teachers in Dallas. Someone noticed the numbers and screamed that the tests must be racially baised. My first impression was that they were just too stupid to pass, but then I got to thinking again that it is strictly a matter of culture. Racial, but only by the fact of it being a cultural matter. Let me give you an example. My grand daughter came home crying that she missed a single word on a spelling test, claiming that it was the fault of her substitute teacher. The word was Doh. She said that this word was not in that weeks studies so it threw her off. She did not know if it was dough, or doe, as the teacher did not use it in a sentence. I went to the school to talk to the teacher, who then asked me if I were not stupid too. I got a bit upset. She said doh. What is so hard about doh. You opened the doh when you came in didn't you. I corrected her and told her that the proper pronunciation was door. She then said, that is what I said, DOH. I just took my grand child and went home. Is she stupid? No. She just speaks her English a bit different than I do. You know, we have to have education standardized or we will never have a nation of educated people. Teach one way, and if a teacher can not pass this test, they don't need to be teaching. Same with students. pass the same standard test or fail. That way everyone is on the same page so to speak.

[Mr Punch]

Huh?

That's news to me. There may be some special circumstances where you could actually take the bar exam without a diploma. However I highly doubt you could get the chance to test to put that "MD" at the end of your name without a sheepskin and a hell of a lot of interning!:DLook at what you wrote. Your English is all ****ed up! :p :D

[BoulderDawg]

Look at what you wrote. Your English is all ****ed up! :p :D


Once again another "Huh"?

Mayhap a little wordy, could have been more succinct, but nothing wrong with the post. Also, just run it through spell check....nuthin wrong there!

Something tells me english is not your first language

[Mr Punch]

If there was a situation where black people who were qualified to take the test were failing 90+% of the time then it would be time to take a look at that to.You don't need a qualification to take a test: you take the test to gain the qualification.

I'm a qualified English teacher. :p You fail. :D Don't take it badly - I'm very strict.

[BoulderDawg]

You don't need a qualification to take a test: you take the test to gain the qualification.

I'm a qualified English teacher. :p You fail. :D Don't take it badly - I'm very strict.

You're kidding correct?

Here's that complete paragraph:


Also I don't hear anyone complaining about the bar or the medical exam. If there was a situation where black people who were qualified to take the test were failing 90+% of the time then it would be time to take a look at that to.

If that doesn't make it crystal clear that I'm talking about the bar and medical exam then I don't know any other way to put it.

And last time I check they weren't allowing people to come in off the street to take these exams.:D

If you are truly serious about being an english teacher then you had better not show this board to your superiors!

[Kevin73]

"Racially Biased" tests are just another excuse for why many minorities fail. In the inner city there is a cultural bias towards education and if you do well in school, then you are a "sellout" and an "uncle tom". Yes, as stupid as that sounds I have talked with many kids that were harassed and singled out because they were doing well in school and were looked down upon by their black peers.

I remember watching and interview on TV with some top guy from the NAACP in a debate about affirmitive action. The other guy said that you shouldn't have AA, and that it should go to the most qualified person no matter who they were. The NAACP guy responded that, that was a racist statement because it implied that blacks and minorities were not the most qualified people. HUH???

Read some commentaries by Thomas Sowell. He is a black conservative who has written many articles on this situation and the dumbing down of America.

[Baqualin]

"Racially Biased" tests are just another excuse for why many minorities fail. In the inner city there is a cultural bias towards education and if you do well in school, then you are a "sellout" and an "uncle tom". Yes, as stupid as that sounds I have talked with many kids that were harassed and singled out because they were doing well in school and were looked down upon by their black peers.

I remember watching and interview on TV with some top guy from the NAACP in a debate about affirmitive action. The other guy said that you shouldn't have AA, and that it should go to the most qualified person no matter who they were. The NAACP guy responded that, that was a racist statement because it implied that blacks and minorities were not the most qualified people. HUH???

Read some commentaries by Thomas Sowell. He is a black conservative who has written many articles on this situation and the dumbing down of America.

Black Rednecks & White Liberals is a great read,
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

I remember watching and interview on TV with some top guy from the NAACP in a debate about affirmitive action. The other guy said that you shouldn't have AA, and that it should go to the most qualified person no matter who they were. The NAACP guy responded that, that was a racist statement because it implied that blacks and minorities were not the most qualified people. HUH???

And just how do you determine who is the "most qualified" person. It's like trying to agree who is the most beautiful girl. Everybody has their opinion.

[Kevin73]

And just how do you determine who is the "most qualified" person. It's like trying to agree who is the most beautiful girl. Everybody has their opinion.

Really? So, according to your logic a dude could be the most beautiful girl in the world since everyone has their opinion. Even in your argument you are starting to establish qualifications to further the selection. And also inherint in your argument is the fact that the "most beautiful" would be opinion based on a criteria that fits that individuals particular needs, just as a job opening is best determined by the employer and what they are looking for.

So, back to the real world. Determining who the "most qualified" person is based on several criteria that an employer is looking to fill for a specific role in the company. Some of these things might be education, work history, prior experience in the same type of job, additional training/skills in the area in question, and/or supplemental training in a related field. How many candidates really fit into this category for one position.

Now, if we are talking unskilled labor or a nonspecific job opening, than it really doesn't matter who you pick other than work experience and record (abscenses, discipline etc.).

[BoulderDawg]

Let's say you are looking for a controller. Especially in today's economy you are going to get 50-60 resumes of people who are qualified for the job. This includes degree and 10 plus years of experience in the job and field. Weed that down to 20 people who have the special qualifications that you are looking for....Just exactly how do you determine who is more qualified? You have 20 people who can do the job and do it well.

This is where AA comes into play. It has done nothing but benefit society by leading to more diversity in the work place. Will some people hired under AA wash out? sure they will but I've seen plenty of "Good ol boy" hires who also washed out or had no business in their job.

[Kevin73]

This is where AA comes into play. It has done nothing but benefit society by leading to more diversity in the work place. Will some people hired under AA wash out? sure they will but I've seen plenty of "Good ol boy" hires who also washed out or had no business in their job.

I don't think it has benefited society overall. The idea/concept is a good one, but in reality I don't think it has worked. I can only speak from experience, but I have met many a biter person who was told flat out by a gov't employer that the reason they didn't get the job was because they had to fill the spot with a quota. People resent this. The people who get the job know they will always be second guessed because of AA.

Would you want to be given a job ONLY based on the color of your skin? That's what it boils down to. You are telling that person that they were NOT chosen because they were the most qualified and best fit for the company, you are telling them that although qualified, they were only picked to fill a quota. Yeah, THAT'S going to build up relations all around.