Advance SLT

[Hendrik]

What is Advance SLT is about?

What is the concept?

What is the purpose behind the words "ADvance"?

What is the result of doing Advance SLT?

[stonecrusher69]

IMO there is no advance SLT/SNT it may be more complex or difficult or different reasons,but only as one advances does the simple become advance not the other way around. If one trains in some advance form but has no skill there is no advance form,but if someone is very skillful then the basic becomes the advanced.

[grasshopper 2.0]

IMO there is no advance SLT/SNT it may be more complex or difficult or different reasons,but only as one advances does the simple become advance not the other way around. If one trains in some advance form but has no skill there is no advance form,but if someone is very skillful then the basic becomes the advanced.

yea i would agree, IMO

[Sihing73]

Hello,

My lineage has a stepping and a shifting SNT.

Not necessarily advanced, but to introduce stepping and shifting earlier to enhance body mechanics. By training the form with Shifting and or stepping one learns the body mechanics whilst in motion. This can lead to a deeper understanding at an earlier time in training.

TWC also has a shifting SNT or so I believe.

[Phil Redmond]

Actually, I never heard of advance SLT. I have heard of advanced SLT. The phrase was coined because it's a little more "advanced" than the stationary SLT. And I mean more "advanced" because it has footwork and explains some of the apps that a person might not get from the "regular" SLT. :cool:

[AdrianK]

IMO there is no advance SLT/SNT it may be more complex or difficult or different reasons,but only as one advances does the simple become advance not the other way around. If one trains in some advance form but has no skill there is no advance form,but if someone is very skillful then the basic becomes the advanced.

You missed the point entirely here. It was a discussion on the Advanced SLT form. Whether you think there is or is not an advanced SLT, there IS because someone created it and named it as such.

Whether it is necessary or not, or its quality, is up to your opinion. But in terms of the facts, it does exist, and it is named that.

[stonecrusher69]

You missed the point entirely here. It was a discussion on the Advanced SLT form. Whether you think there is or is not an advanced SLT, there IS because someone created it and named it as such.

Whether it is necessary or not, or its quality, is up to your opinion. But in terms of the facts, it does exist, and it is named that.

Everyone knows there is an advanced SLT form in the T.W.C. system. My point wasn't that this not an form called advanced S.L.T but that in IMO the form it self does not make it advanced or superior to the basic S.L.T form. Only skill can do that not a form. A form is only an empty shell reflected by the person doing the form.

[AdrianK]

Everyone knows there is an advanced SLT form in the T.W.C. system.

The point of my post was that if someone decides to call a form, "Grand Amazing Advanced Incredible Best Form Ever", it makes it so that it exists as such, by that name. Whether it actually IS, is another debate.



My point wasn't that this not an form called advanced S.L.T but that in IMO the form it self does not make it advanced or superior to the basic S.L.T form.

I understand what you mean, no one in TWC (that matters) is ever trying to tell anyone that it is superior to all other forms of SLT. The reason it is called "Advanced" is because it adds a new dynamic and skill that provides a bridge between SLT and CK.

Its not "Best version ever SLT", its simply more complex because of the footwork portion, which since the practitioner has yet to do Chum Kiu, they do not have yet.

I think the form justifies the name, absolutely. Its quality is opinion, but it does build on the original SLT with a concept it did not have before.



Only skill can do that not a form. A form is only an empty shell reflected by the person doing the form.

You can't judge how advanced a curriculum is for everyone, based on each and every individual practitioner. The qualifications would be in constantly changing. There are lessons that are beginners, intermediate, and advanced. No matter who you are, they are classified as such, for obvious reasons.

[stonecrusher69]

The point of my post was that if someone decides to call a form, "Grand Amazing Advanced Incredible Best Form Ever", it makes it so that it exists as such, by that name. Whether it actually IS, is another debate.


I agree..




I understand what you mean, no one in TWC (that matters) is ever trying to tell anyone that it is superior to all other forms of SLT. The reason it is called "Advanced" is because it adds a new dynamic and skill that provides a bridge between SLT and CK.


I agree it addes a new dynamic but not skill.Skill does not come from the form alone. It only comes from hard training not by doing forms. Forms only give you the movement and the theory which you have to make it work.


Its not "Best version ever SLT", its simply more complex because of the footwork portion, which since the practitioner has yet to do Chum Kiu, they do not have yet.


I agree it's more complex,but not advanced.


I think the form justifies the name, absolutely. Its quality is opinion, but it does build on the original SLT with a concept it did not have before.


I agree, it builds on something new. Like the other forms in WCK they are no more advanced then SLT.





You can't judge how advanced a curriculum is for everyone, based on each and every individual practitioner. The qualifications would be in constantly changing. There are lessons that are beginners, intermediate, and advanced. No matter who you are, they are classified as such, for obvious reasons.

[/I]

sure I agree there are different levels for each student at their level of understanding and skill l. I feel when a student has a firm understanding of the basic then one can do any form in WCK. As one form is not more advanced or superior to another but equal. The difference is in ones skill level that can be said one is a beginer or at an advance level but not based on what forms they have learned.


I pulled this up from wikipedia..4. advanced - at a higher level in training or knowledge or skill ..


The key word is skill withouot that there is no advanced anything. Knowledge is not enough.

[AdrianK]

Your definition states

"4. advanced - at a higher level in training or knowledge or skill .. "
The key word is actually "or", it is not specifically higher skill, it is higher level of training, or knowledge, or skill. Meaning "Advanced" can mean any of those.

Nonetheless, the more accepted definitions found in most dictionaries are more along the lines of the dictionary.com definition.
[/i]"ahead or far or further along in progress, complexity, knowledge, skill, etc.:"[/i]

Which is right alongside the idea that "Advanced SLT" is nothing more than "Further along" in the curriculum, and a bit more complex.



I feel when a student has a firm understanding of the basic then one can do any form in WCK. As one form is not more advanced or superior to another but equal.

I absolutely agree, there is nothing superior or advanced on one end of WCK to the other. In the case of TWC however, there is a set curriculum which follows a path of advancement, hence the use of the word "Advanced".

[k gledhill]

SLT is SLT

[stonecrusher69]

Your definition states

"4. advanced - at a higher level in training or knowledge or skill .. "
The key word is actually "or", it is not specifically higher skill, it is higher level of training, or knowledge, or skill. Meaning "Advanced" can mean any of those.

Nonetheless, the more accepted definitions found in most dictionaries are more along the lines of the dictionary.com definition.
[/i]"ahead or far or further along in progress, complexity, knowledge, skill, etc.:"[/i]

Which is right alongside the idea that "Advanced SLT" is nothing more than "Further along" in the curriculum, and a bit more complex.




I absolutely agree, there is nothing superior or advanced on one end of WCK to the other. In the case of TWC however, there is a set curriculum which follows a path of advancement, hence the use of the word "Advanced".


Ok understand...

[Phil Redmond]

SLT is SLT
There is Siu Nihm Tauh (Smal Thought Head) and there is Siu Lihm Tauh (small training head). SLT is SLT in your lineage and that's all good. But like I said to Terence unless a person has in depth training in the various versions/lineages of WCK it's logically impossible to say what is and what isn't. If a WCK verison doesn't have SLT/SNT is it wrong?
I'm more concerned about the combat. I could care less what people think of the forms we do in TWC. The ASLT is just a more advanced expression of the traditional SLT. I believe that a martial art should evolve to compete with new martial developments. So there should be differences in MAs. If not a MA can just fade away. Yes, our TWC ASLT is different from the mainstream. But like I said my concern is the combat. The ASLT does help a student to "advance" to a better understanding of application of the regular SLT.

I'm not a blind follower of ANY man. It's not my nature. But William Cheung was a fighter according to many including WSL so he must have believed that the ASLT was worth while teaching.

Bruce Lee once asked if he would be able to beat WSL or Chang(Mandarin for Cheung).

Here's an excerpt from a WSL interview:

". . . . Later, he asked me when he would be able to win over Chang (Cheung) and me. He asked too much. I felt that he had fallen into the state of bewitchment. His competitive character caused me to worry for him. I feared that he would lose the aim in learning Kung Fu. I said to him, "To win over me is not difficult. I'm only the commonest of the commons. My history of Kung Fu learning, is only a few years longer than yours.
There is nothing great in winning over me. I compare with other people not because I have good Kung Fu. It is only because I am not satisfied with the superstitious and mysterious elements people uphold in Chinese Kung Fu. I am young, I have an ideal. I want to alter people's attitude towards Chinese martial arts in my own effort. In fact, Chinese martial arts is simply a kind of sport. Your potential is better than mine. Some day you will win over me. As to Chang (Cheung), it is difficult to say. You two are of the same age, but his physique and combat experience are better than yours. You will not be able to subdue him now.
Whether you can win over him in the future or not depends very much on your progress and your
training. Even our Master will not be able to answer this question. . . "
This is the link to the whole interview:
http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/wslbl.htm

[k gledhill]

In WSL VT the SLT is about elbow training , not wrists. This never changes.:D

Im not mentioning individuals, just the SLT ;)

In my opinion an advanced understanding would make you see more redundancy and Drills to simply re-enforce the elbows . Less advanced , the punch becoming just a simple punch again.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I absolutely agree, there is nothing superior or advanced on one end of WCK to the other. In the case of TWC however, there is a set curriculum which follows a path of advancement, hence the use of the word "Advanced".

...............................................

***ADRIAN has hit the correct.

[k gledhill]

I would agree that a beginners mind of SLT and a student with more in depth understanding can be classified as having a more advanced SLT head :D...

still the same form actions.....The idea is to rid yourself of grand ideas and magic bullets, and focus on being an aggressive fighter with a relentless attack.

The arms are constantly being trained not to waiver off the striking line, while utilizing the natural acute angles of the tan/jum to slip energy along the forearms if contact is made, and allow a simultaneous strike defensive line as each arm occupies your center in rotation, attacking ...

It is common and expected for beginners to open the elbows and need to do more SLT to simply train to keep the elbows and forearms along certain positions to 'work' the attacking idea.

Because the arms are trained along a specific line, the line needs to me moved via Chum kil for optimum effectiveness, using tactical guidelines from knives and techniques from pole etc...the system is a whole idea broken into drills , but still a complete flowing idea for surviving an attack. Using concepts to guide the realities, raising percentages, to achieve an end... attacking with strikes that are dual in individual actions in other words ...how to defend yourself by knowing how to attack someone as your defensive response, delivering a scientific thought process without thinking as you do it, and from positions and angles [arms & body] that are tactical/technical, but very SIMPLE and aggressive...

attack/defenses in each arm striking while trying to adopt angles relative to the given opponents actions instinctively [via chi-sao drills]

To be able to deliver this 'concept' of attacking as a defense isn't easy, nor can it be achieved by complicating simple actions when simple direct actions are the basis for the 'torrent of water' approach to WSL VT fighting. MAny lose this direction for arm games wrist chasing , wanting to function by feeling arms rather than hitting with fists that have forearms in certain angles to act as unthinking defensive 'barriers' to potential entry . That 'click' unthinking responses into action IF contact is interupted by an opponents arm....not guided to chase the opponents arm to function or deliver a 'move'.



The SLT is and always will be a simple approach to understanding the relationship of ones arms / forearms/ elbows , relative to your center line. But its a beginning mind set, the verbal ideas and concepts have to be conveyed along with the reasons for the arms being 1/2 extended along an imaginary line ...the drills have to be understood with this simplistic idea and never let redundant ideas blind you.



WSL would say that to hesitate is dangerous, meaning !attack! and be committed with confidence not, er, ah.... oh and now what...let me think ? POW !!!ouch ! what was that ? I see stars...:D


How to be like water crashing on the rocks ?

[Phil Redmond]

In WSL VT the SLT is about elbow training , not wrists. This never changes.:D

Im not mentioning individuals, just the SLT ;)

In my opinion an advanced understanding would make you see more redundancy and Drills to simply re-enforce the elbows . Less advanced , the punch becoming just a simple punch again.
Wrists, stance, etc., are always trained in all the different WC "versions" I've learned. Including the two non YM lineages I studied.

[k gledhill]

I was shown wrists too, but not wrists anymore , the wrists are by nature the 'tip' of the pointer 'so to speak' so if they are being used to 'deflect' off the line and deliver a parry prior to a strike with the same arm/hand...one will NEVER develop a single strike with elbows/arms/alignment, techniques.
And in a fight would you attack with wrist actions ? wrists put one at a distance to parry arms/chase arms, not strike and simultaneously use elbows/forearm positions etc as the rotating defensive line ... is a tan sao a wrist action ? is jum sao a wrist'ing action ? in SLT...? I dont think so.

Sure there are confused forms where guys put EVERYTHING in to make it more 'fancy' :D
I can combine everything Ive ever seen from everyone into a mega advanced wow form with back flips , a little eagle claw and who's to say anything ?

I wasted a lot of time in vt training being shown wrist'ing actions. Wrist'ing is said like a bad word now :D if one uses the wrist to deflect in chi-sao, bad , simply because you aren't developing an alignment / strike with jum or tan. Your playing a tag game at a distance too far to reach with a strike , requiring further stepping to simply make good contact....simple distance changes from dan chi to lok sao/chi-sao are required, but seldom are they done...many stay at dan chi-sao distance forever doing wrist sticking /follow the leader , chasing .. over the head, elbows like chicken wings , sad .

[Phil Redmond]

I use the wrists in a lau or huen to get around a limb and it's not "chasing" hands. We seem to differ here and that's all good.
The bottom line is that I advocate what I used successfully in fighting , what our students use successfully in fighting. The only way to know what'll is to fight and we're a fight oriented school.
'

[stonecrusher69]

IMO staying at the wrist or useing the wrist as the contact point has advantages and disadavanges. I don't believe is better then the other. IMO using a wrist contact point is safer then at elbpow range.

[k gledhill]

I use the wrists in a lau or huen to get around a limb and it's not "chasing" hands. We seem to differ here and that's all good.
The bottom line is that I advocate what I used successfully in fighting , what our students use successfully in fighting. The only way to know what'll is to fight and we're a fight oriented school.
'


in huen we drop the forearm as we huen sao [ SLT ], so the wrist isnt the action but the fore- arm dropping as a 1/2 level parry , gaun being a full low parry [bil gee] ....the huen /forearm drop i call a guillotine action similar to a large 'old school' paper cutter with a long arm that drops down and slices the paper in a clean cut.
The WSL way has a dual action in the huen sao, the huen with forearm dropping while keeping the elbows in [ SLT elbows in ] the dropping forearm displaces the arm your parrying , not the wrist alone , the turning hand acts to encircle but not as a 'hook' alone , just as a cork screw action to follow through with a following palm /fist/push strike

dropping down on top of the incoming arm is like taking a line of force and dropping it side by side , simply chopping down like creating 2 parallel lines ' = ' not an ' X ' the action displaces the other arm subtly with a cutting force that forces it to stay outside your attacking entry , you can use a rear vu sao parry to cover your head as you attack in under the now displaced arm or palm the head to turn it and the opponents structure..

for lower attacks the gaun sao was added into the SLT from BG for lower areas...now a norm but wasnt when the system was first introduced.


...we do the huen and jum strikes in dummy a lot for their partnership in fighting ...if an arm comes into you mid section as we are angled we can drop the striking arm of ours down and 'huen/guillotine' as the other arm of ours strikes with jum energy to maintain the centerlines defense..as dummy so is the slt ...if the elbow of the huen arm comes out you can easily be hit , we do hit to show open elbows in chi-sao.

we only turn to face the attackers movements not to apply body turning with lau or huen...so the actions are done facing square no body turning with the huen/guillotine etc...just drop/chop /huen/strike/attack