Why do all MAs turn into kickboxing in the end?

[andyhaas]

Stop teaching students the apps of techniques, give them puffy gloves and shin guards ... start preaching the benefits of 'stripping down' the MA, getting to the essentials ... how all the 'traditional' stuff is too slow to compete, has to be 'optimized', etc.

Is this why all MA lineages seem to turn into kickboxing in the end?

[lkfmdc]

I dunno, maybe because when you get down to it, a fight is about being able to hit and kick people and basic is what works

every wonder why even though video is widespread around the world now, we still don't find any clips of people fighting for real and looking like Shaw Bros kung fu movies?

Or maybe that's because the real masters are hiding in caves, afraid to reveal their dim mak

:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Or maybe that's because the real masters are hiding in caves, afraid to reveal their dim mak

The great ones are always the toughest to find!!! :p

[andyhaas]

I dunno, maybe because when you get down to it, a fight is about being able to hit and kick people and basic is what works

every wonder why even though video is widespread around the world now, we still don't find any clips of people fighting for real and looking like Shaw Bros kung fu movies?

Or maybe that's because the real masters are hiding in caves, afraid to reveal their dim mak

:rolleyes:

Actually, the TRUTH is ... very simple ...

You hit anybody in the nose or face hard enough to hurt them ... they BLEED ... (or just go ow ... I want to stop) = end of the competition fight.

Therefore, competition fighting = mostly watered down boxing with puffy gloves on so it goes on longer. Case closed.

[David Jamieson]

All I know is that simple = better.

[lkfmdc]

LMFAO

Please, go to a boxing gym and ask one of those MERE SPORT FIGHTERS to punch you in the face with the FLUFFY GLOVES and then, when you wake up, report back what happened :rolleyes:

[andyhaas]

LMFAO

Please, go to a boxing gym and ask one of those MERE SPORT FIGHTERS to punch you in the face with the FLUFFY GLOVES and then, when you wake up, report back what happened :rolleyes:

Been to tourneys, been hit plenty of times. Not saying there's anything wrong with mere sport fighters just saying that in the end, it all gets watered down to the same stuff, different buzzword.

[David Jamieson]

Actually, the TRUTH is ... very simple ...

You hit anybody in the nose or face hard enough to hurt them ... they BLEED ... (or just go ow ... I want to stop) = end of the competition fight.

Therefore, competition fighting = mostly watered down boxing with puffy gloves on so it goes on longer. Case closed.

You haven't seen a lot of fights have you?

This is not my experience.

Now, if we're talking about amateur stuff, yeah, there's lots and lots and lots of crappy "fighters" who enter amateur competition. Good for them, i hope they learn something.

But quality kickboxing is superior to well... there aren't any venues for kungfu fighting now are there? are there? or is everyone too afraid they will kill their opponent with their special deadly that only they have in their lineage?

lol

[lkfmdc]

Been to tourneys,



you aren't talk about point sparring are you? no, really

what FIGHTS have you had???

[lkfmdc]

You haven't seen a lot of fights have you?

This is not my experience.

Now, if we're talking about amateur stuff, yeah, there's lots and lots and lots of crappy "fighters" who enter amateur competition. Good for them, i hope they learn something.

But quality kickboxing is superior to well... there aren't any venues for kungfu fighting now are there? are there? or is everyone too afraid they will kill their opponent with their special deadly that only they have in their lineage?

lol

darn it Jamieson, I told you, stop agreeing with me, you'll blow the whole thing and they'll know we are actually Gene Ching :D

[andyhaas]

You haven't seen a lot of fights have you?

This is not my experience.

Now, if we're talking about amateur stuff, yeah, there's lots and lots and lots of crappy "fighters" who enter amateur competition. Good for them, i hope they learn something.

But quality kickboxing is superior to well... there aren't any venues for kungfu fighting now are there? are there? or is everyone too afraid they will kill their opponent with their special deadly that only they have in their lineage?

lol

I've only been in 3 real fights. 2 ended up with broken noses and the other person yelling and saying I shouldn't have hit them after they hit me, and the other one ended up with a friend pulling the guy off me because I was too drunk to fight. LOL

Anyways ... whatever ... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with kickboxing ... just wanting to say something that I probably shouldn't say.

(Like ... maybe people should check out their local kickboxing and boxing gym if they want to get the best kickboxing and skip the MMA latest buzzword crap).

[lkfmdc]

"street fights" against untrained / unconditioned people, especially drunk untrained / unconditioned people are completely meaningless

what FULL CONTACT events have you done?

You used the workd "tourneys" - were they FULL CONTACT? if so what were they, when and were?

[David Jamieson]

I've only been in 3 real fights. 2 ended up with broken noses and the other person yelling and saying I shouldn't have hit them after they hit me, and the other one ended up with a friend pulling the guy off me because I was too drunk to fight. LOL

Anyways ... whatever ... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with kickboxing ... just wanting to say something that I probably shouldn't say.

(Like ... maybe people should check out their local kickboxing and boxing gym if they want to get the best kickboxing and skip the MMA latest buzzword crap).

that's cool.

so, you shouldn't really be commenting except to say that if people think kickboxing is no good, they should go try out a club.

maybe after a couple of months of training you might get to step up and have your ass handed to you and therein is the lesson. :)

[andyhaas]

"street fights" against untrained / unconditioned people, especially drunk untrained / unconditioned people are completely meaningless

what FULL CONTACT events have you done?

You used the workd "tourneys" - were they FULL CONTACT? if so what were they, when and were?

THERE ARE NO OTHER FULL CONTACT FIGHTS THAN UNCONTROLLED, NON PLANNED, FIGHTS.

At least in my definition.

Planned events do not denote FULL CONTACT in my definition.

[hskwarrior]

wow, andy, what part of the bay are your from bro?

[lkfmdc]

THERE ARE NO OTHER FULL CONTACT FIGHTS THAN UNCONTROLLED, NON PLANNED, FIGHTS.

At least in my definition.

Planned events do not denote FULL CONTACT in my definition.

I'll take that to mean "no, I've never done a full contact fight" :rolleyes:

I have bad news for you, a lot of traditionally trained people step into a full contact event, with obvious notice, with what they thought was preparation, they are looking at the guy across the ring/cage, they know when the match is about to start, they have WARNING and they still get destroyed

But you think that guy would do great in a spontaneous surprise attack?

uh, ok....... :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

THERE ARE NO OTHER FULL CONTACT FIGHTS THAN UNCONTROLLED, NON PLANNED, FIGHTS.

At least in my definition.

Planned events do not denote FULL CONTACT.

your definition is lacking andy.

you'll get hit harder by a guy who's been training to hit you hard for 3 to 6 months in a regimen designed to build his strength and fighting ability than you will in most any street fight or against some drunken fool.

simply put, stepping into a fight, as planned is way harder to do than many people think. Not so much the wrestling and jujitsu kind of stuff, because except for tapping or getting locked you aren't gonna get hurt too bad there. BUt boxing, kickboxing, MT, San Shou, FC Karate etc, you will bring up your chances of some hurting.

I'd rather fight a shlub than a trained fighter. It's less work for me. :)

[andyhaas]

I'll take that to mean "no, I've never done a full contact fight" :rolleyes:

I have bad news for you, a lot of traditionally trained people step into a full contact event, with obvious notice, with what they thought was preparation, they are looking at the guy across the ring/cage, they know when the match is about to start, they have WARNING and they still get destroyed

But you think that guy would do great in a spontaneous surprise attack?

uh, ok....... :rolleyes:

I'm from Northbay. I haven't gotten into too many fights in my life.

I've done karate tournaments with gloves ... they called them full contact. I haven't done karate tournaments without gloves.

But really full contact IMHO means you aren't expecting trouble, and it happens. You never really know how you'll react until it happens. If you do it in a ring, it's an expected thing.

[andyhaas]

your definition is lacking andy.

you'll get hit harder by a guy who's been training to hit you hard for 3 to 6 months in a regimen designed to build his strength and fighting ability than you will in most any street fight or against some drunken fool.

simply put, stepping into a fight, as planned is way harder to do than many people think. Not so much the wrestling and jujitsu kind of stuff, because except for tapping or getting locked you aren't gonna get hurt too bad there. BUt boxing, kickboxing, MT, San Shou, FC Karate etc, you will bring up your chances of some hurting.

I'd rather fight a shlub than a trained fighter. It's less work for me. :)

IMHO ... you'll get hit harder by some guy on the street who had some boxing training and who hits his heavy bag than some guy who is used to pulling his punches for tourneys. At least it feels harder.

Pavement is harder than a mat when getting taken down (although after high throws in Judo, only moderately ... LOL)

[David Jamieson]

I'm from Northbay. I haven't gotten into too many fights in my life.

I've done karate tournaments with gloves ... they called them full contact. I haven't done karate tournaments without gloves.

But really full contact IMHO means you aren't expecting trouble, and it happens. You never really know how you'll react until it happens. If you do it in a ring, it's an expected thing.

well, not really.

what you are defining is someone sucker punching you or harassing you into a fight.

full contact is where you can hit someone as hard as you possibly can muster yourself to do so. Against a trained fighter, this is much harder to do than when you get into a scrape in a bar or on the street.

you can train for it , step into that ring and still get KTFO. You can fight on the street and nothing comes of it in the end. IN the ring, you will be hit, you will be attacked, for sure and without a doubt. And if he's better than you, or luckier than you, or in better energy that day, then you are going down whether you expect it or not.

[Lucas]

when we fight in a competition, we want to win. doesnt matter what someone says, 'oh im just here to learn, blah blah blah' they want to win.

when you are fighting someone you know has put in the time to train and kick your ass, you are much less likely to do anything to put that fight on the line of losing. your going to see a lot of basics, because thats what works. it just happens that the basics in pretty much any style, will very closely resemble each other. minor differences here and there, but then the stress and pressure of fighting is going to make that distinction between styles even less noticable.

the rules of the competition will also greatly change this aspect.

for instance, when you watch that chinese show where they wear chest pads and dont punch each other in the face, they are simply showing off their style. you can easily make the distinctions between styles in that show. take away the chest pad and allow full contact, those same fighters will fight very differently than what they showcase in that show. it will look like *gasp* kickboxing.

watch all of cung le's sanshou fights. that guys definately a master of his martial arts. hes **** good at what he does. For the most part, hes slamming his opponent with basics, looking like 'kick boxing' then setting them up for a good throw or scissor leg takedown that hes famous for.

i personally dont like the term 'kickboxing' its outdated IMO

[andyhaas]

i personally dont like the term 'kickboxing' its outdated IMO

That's kindof what I'm saying ... is that watered down kenpo kickboxing = mostly kickboxing. Watered down karate kickboxing = mostly kickboxing. Watered down TKD kickboxing = mostly kickboxing. Watered down CMA kickboxing aka sanda is still mostly kickboxing (albeit with some weird throws sometimes).

So why different terminology? A new crowd expecting something new, I guess, that hasn't seen the old stuff. But each does have a different twist to it -- not every one is the same.

[hskwarrior]

One thing is for sure....

a street fighter can be very deadly, but in short spurts only. They fight with a vicious-ness not always seen in the ring. But peter out quickly.

but, a street fighter couldn't do **** against a ring fighter who trains everyday to fight, and conditions himself to last in a fight. If a street fighter was as conditioned as a ring fighter, then we'd have to see who the best fighter is.

but, karate style tourneys only give a student false hope. IMHO point sparring is detrimental to realistic combative training. just my opinion though.

so andy, you must be out in the 707 then huh?

[hskwarrior]

Do they really put boxing gloves on their feet? :D:p

[Oso]

andyhaas is the ghost of xmas past....

[andyhaas]

so andy, you must be out in the 707 then huh?

Yeah. Not much fighting up here.


andyhaas is the ghost of xmas past....

I think I kindof give up on MA, TMA in particular.

A friend's kid was complaining of TKD injuries to me that he got without even sparring. I was trying to explain to my friend why the TKD his kid was taking wasn't that effective because of the way the blocks were done, weak bone of the arm on the wrong side, etc., how the stances weren't right. Basically what they were doing could cripple a person.

My friend just got mad at me ... and this was somebody who even had the same teacher as I had a long time ago.

I think that just taking kickboxing is kindof the way to go for the younger crowd. Why bother with any sort of TMA if they aren't going to do it right anyways?

[lkfmdc]

IMHO ... you'll get hit harder by some guy on the street



that should end this thread

[Lucas]

gradeschool/middles school wrestling is where its at imo. to get a kid started in MA. couple that with any form of decent striking and you got yourself a competent kid. i would even add modern wushu just for the acrobatics, flexability, and fun factor.

kids love wushu.

[David Jamieson]

Kids, well, boys actually love to wrestle.

I would recommend wrestling over striking arts for people under 18.

I wouldn't recommend striking arts for anyone, but if they really really wanted to learn, they should wait until their bones are fully formed and their body is fully developed before undertaking to go through the required conditioning to fight in that way.

The full adult human isn't there until about 18-20 years old. repetitive striking can malform the body prior to this if done with much intensity.

form work is fine at a younger age, can't really do a lot of damage just doing body co-ordination and self-awareness work

[Pork Chop]

that should end this thread

yeah that's a dumb quote...


Some of this just seems so "well, duh".
Gloved fighting tends to look like other gloved fighting because it's; well, gloved fighting.

Bareknuckle boxing didn't look like today's boxing when fighters had to worry about a higher chance of cuts & broken hands. Heck, even look at Max Baer knocking out Primo Carnera and you'll see a style of boxing that is almost completely illegal by today's rules (though that basically goes to the point I'll make later about mma).

Gloves let you head hunt with limited fear of broken hands, head shots tend to stop a fight quicker than body shots (esp with the hard angles removed), the gloves also take up more surface area which allows for easier passive defense, so your entire strategy's gotta change to meet that paradigm if you want to succeed.

Mma is kind of an interesting opportunity.
The passive defense doesn't work as well (though still better than bareknuckle), so there are more opportunities to "leak" through.
Shouldn't be as bound by "orthodox boxing" when it comes to stuff like hammer fists, back fists, elbows, forearms, and palming; so that really opens up some angles.
You can still punch to the head with less likelihood of an injured hand, but I imagine the body shots with the small gloves are likely to do more "sharp" damage than with 8 or 10oz.
An mma "stand up" format would be fun (but probably brutal).

[Lucas]

An mma "stand up" format would be fun (but probably brutal).

that would rule. mma sanshou! keep the throws in there for sure.

[bawang]

theres a shaolin saying yi li shen shi zhao
strength beats 10 techniques

many kung fu forms look complicated but its just punch kick grab varation
it looks complicated maybe because its done flowerly

[monji112000]

Actually, the TRUTH is ... very simple ...

You hit anybody in the nose or face hard enough to hurt them ... they BLEED ... (or just go ow ... I want to stop) = end of the competition fight.

Therefore, competition fighting = mostly watered down boxing with puffy gloves on so it goes on longer. Case closed.

Have you seen a Pro MMA fight? Hell People get arms broken and continue to beat their opponents. You can see massive amounts of blood and people will not stop unless the ref calls the fight.

Hell I don't stop if I'm bleeding.. its only blood. :rolleyes:

[monji112000]

LMFAO

Please, go to a boxing gym and ask one of those MERE SPORT FIGHTERS to punch you in the face with the FLUFFY GLOVES and then, when you wake up, report back what happened :rolleyes:

I seem to remember those "fluffy gloves" being the reason why I stopped doing Kickboxing.. Just getting hit "lightly" for some people can be too much. Have you ever really been punched in the face??

[MightyB]

start with kickboxing. Have 'em train and fight until they get good at it, then teach them traditional Chinese martial arts after they've had a good full contact base and training in San Da or MMA.

[TenTigers]

I would be interested in folks' opinions of why you don't see pek, been, gwa, sow, kup, etc in MMA, Sanshou, Sanda, etc.
I have heard some say that they are too telegraphed, but anystrike is telegraphed if it isn't set up properly. Yes? No?

[Lokhopkuen]

The great ones are always the toughest to find!!! :p

Ever so true.

[andyhaas]

I would be interested in folks' opinions of why you don't see pek, been, gwa, sow, kup, etc in MMA, Sanshou, Sanda, etc.
I have heard some say that they are too telegraphed, but anystrike is telegraphed if it isn't set up properly. Yes? No?

Personally, I think it's because the style I studied we did kickboxing and then learned 'kung fu' style blocking and striking skills separately, so they look distinct from kickboxing. I mean, I call an uppercut an uppercut, an upward block an upward block, etc.

When I do a bagua uppercut, the dynamics are totally different than kickboxing. Stance, step, etc.

(Then again, I'm lazy when it comes to names ... I never tried to remember Chinese names for stuff ... don't really try to use yi di sang wha (sp) or bil jee or that type of stuff ...

[lkfmdc]

I would be interested in folks' opinions of why you don't see pek, been, gwa, sow, kup, etc in MMA, Sanshou, Sanda, etc.
I have heard some say that they are too telegraphed, but anystrike is telegraphed if it isn't set up properly. Yes? No?

been?
you see JYUHN BIN (spin back fist) all the time

sow?
Long hooks, we use them all the time

kup?
overhand, actually very common

[Pork Chop]

I saw a guy in golden gloves in maryland throw overhand lefts that were WAY more clf-style sow choy than even a standard boxing overhand.
Occasionally you'll see guys in san shou pull off sow choy - like that dude out of Chicago, though he does kinda wind up a bit much for my tastes.
They also throw a forearm shot that's very similar in muay thai in Thailand (the only place I know that it's legal).

Pek Choy is similar enough to the hammer fist that's a staple of ground n pound in mma.

Personally, I couldn't really pull off gwa-anything (ie gwa-sow-charp, gwa-ping, gwa-kup, etc) with any sort of consistency - especially as a lead-off, but most times even as a counter. The gwa just took too long to get there. It *might* work the first time and then any time after that i was toast.

[Lokhopkuen]

Personally, I think it's because the style I studied we did kickboxing and then learned 'kung fu' style blocking and striking skills separately, so they look distinct from kickboxing. I mean, I call an uppercut an uppercut, an upward block an upward block, etc.

When I do a bagua uppercut, the dynamics are totally different than kickboxing. Stance, step, etc.

(Then again, I'm lazy when it comes to names ... I never tried to remember Chinese names for stuff ... don't really try to use yi di sang wha (sp) or bil jee or that type of stuff ...

A punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick. When you learn how to chain them together with proper timing and alignment you are a fighter.

[taai gihk yahn]

I guess that the time of chastisement has passed...

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. I love it when someone with no experience in full-contact competition or real fighting decides to impart their wisdom about these subjects.... :D:p

[Lucas]

or has it only begun? You know as well as i we could carry this for a few more pages.

:p

[grasshopper 2.0]

the human body is limited, in range of motion, in the number of limbs, to the physical capabilities, etc. The body is also bound to the laws of the environment surrounding it. what i think that results in is that certain types of punches/kicks/strategies are more effective than others - meaning that many styles end up converging when it comes to the full-contact setting.

to me, the various martial art styles have diverged so much in their teaching and much of the "fighting essence" is lost in the forms and propagated by movies, tv, and other driving forces (eg. $$-related).

but martial art styles, imo, at one time were different vehicles to get to the same place, whether it's called kick boxing or whatever, they are just different ways of training, perspective, strategies etc to train the student ultimately to fight. the fight is going to have a kickboxing/boxing appearance (as defined by the limitations above)...but hopefully the vehicle the student chose suited his/her personality, beliefs and goals, etc. It's called kickboxing or boxing only because we have a word for it in our language/culture now. Perhaps in another land and different time, they saw it as kung fu, karate, etc.

[Yum Cha]

I'd like to make a suggestion to solve this issue once and for all. A true, fair-dinkum, FIGHT competition.

I think there would have to be a couple of events.

Dress would be street clothing, leather shoes, trendy gear all around, gotta look good.

No gloves, for sure.

1. Chug 3 beers, just to get into the right kind of space you're likely to be in when something happens.

6 guys are your potential opponents, but you don't know which one, until he sucker punches you a good one, then its on. Hit the wrong guy, you get fined and spend the night in jail as a penalty.

You are allowed to use anything in the area that comes to hand as a weapon, as is your opponent. Stools/chairs, ashtrays, glasses, etc....

In the middle of the fight, the ref rolls a 4 sided die to see how many helpers your opponent gets. Does the same for you.

You have to win by capitulation, or within 2 minutes, before Sanjuro comes in with 10 buddies and choke the lot of you out.

Second event.

You walk up and down a street with a woman. Again, your oppoonent(s), # determinied by the roll of a d6, are walking the opposite direction. You don't know who they are until one of them sucker punches you.

Immediately thereafter, the woman grabs you and starts holding on and screaming, and you have to deal with the opponents, and the woman, without hurting her, but getting away from them. All you have to do is get away to win. No time limit.

For interest, maybe throw in a child or two as well...

Ross, whatcha reckon, could you sell tickets?
:D:D:D

[taai gihk yahn]

so here's a question: what exactly is it about so-called kickboxing that makes it "un-kung fu"-like? I mean, first off, only the most virulently crazed CMA zombie would suggest that fighting should look exactly like a given stylistic form; indeed, when we see so-called "traditional" masters of disparate CMA systems demo apps, even under those controlled circumstances you start to see "drift" towards commonality - indeed, a CLF man's outer reaping throw starts looking rather like the way Northern Shaolin practitioner's looks when applied;

anyway, it seems that there are two major arguments "against" so-called kickboxing that make it a "lesser" pursuit in terms of actual fighting efficacy when contrasted to TCMA: 1) there are rules; 2) wearing gloves limits the use of certain techniques;

rules: there are rules everywhere, even on the street - if you think that a street fight doesn't have a set of rules, then you're deluded; of course, they may not be as clearly articulated, but they exist in the form of social norms, behavioral responses, environmental constraints and last but not least, the legal code; and every single one of these things will impact a street fight to varying degrees; that said, the major difference to me is the level of unpredictability, in terms of speed and degree of escalation, and a whole bunch of factors that you can't really know beforehand; however, because of this flexibility, those rules can be fluid, and it's easy to "cheat", in the sense that if faced with a street altercation, one might come up w/a solution that turns a disadvantage around in an instant; OTOH, in the ring, the rules are known, and are designed so that the playing field is leveled as much as possible, so that two things can be made the deciding factor: the skill and strength / conditioning (including mental) of the fighters; in other words, all those variables of the street are REMOVED so that, in theory, the more skilled / prepared fighter will be the winner; so say what you will, but to me, this puts ring fighting such as MT, SD, etc. on a level that makes it HARDER to prevail than on the street - and I think that a well trained San Da or MT fighter will have an easier time of it taking it to the street than the other way around, BTW...

gloves: everyone argues against using gloves, because it limits what techniques can be thrown (and I am talking about boxing gloves, not MMA); well, ok, let's first look at what wearing gloves doesn't change: footwork, distancing, timing, speed, strength, feints, power generation, any fist technique, forearms, elbows, sweeps, kicks and the majority of take-downs / throws - these all would be pretty much the same - wearing won't change much of that inherently;
so what's left? well, seems like what gloves limit is basically any sort of palm, finger or claw stuff; ok, fair enough - these are all important features in pretty much all CMA to varying degrees; ad so I guess that for a CMA person to argue that wearing gloves impacts their ability to use their style in its totality in theory is valid;

so then, here's a question for all of you traditional kung-fu-ists: the last time that any of you were in a "real" street fight, how many of you used techniques that, had you been wearing gloves, you wouldn't have been able to use? from the sound of things, all the traditionalists have had ample experience using their crane beaks, tiger claws, mantis hands, Buddha palms or ginger fists "for real"; is that the case?

[Mr Punch]

I've only read the first 2 pages of this... but here's my question... sorry if it's old:

Why is it the people with no full contact experience who always ask this kind of question? And why do they always know the answer?

Oh ****, me too, I know the answer to this one.

[Oso]

that would rule. mma sanshou! keep the throws in there for sure.

uh, what exactly would be the difference between 'sanshou' and 'mma sanshou'?

the gloves?

[Pork Chop]

uh, what exactly would be the difference between 'sanshou' and 'mma sanshou'?

the gloves?

yeah

it was in response to my comment that i wish there was a stand up format with the tiny gloves - i think canada tried something like that but it ended up being full rules mma.

[TenTigers]

For interest, maybe throw in a child or two as well...


would that be underhand, or overhand?

[TenTigers]

so then, here's a question for all of you traditional kung-fu-ists: the last time that any of you were in a "real" street fight, how many of you used techniques that, had you been wearing gloves, you wouldn't have been able to use? from the sound of things, all the traditionalists have had ample experience using their crane beaks, tiger claws, mantis hands, Buddha palms or ginger fists "for real"; is that the case?

ooh, ooh, pick me! pick me!

actually, yeah, I have used claw techniques.
Ok, I admit. It wasn't the last fight I had...and it was in '75. Does that count?

[JackNate]

I don't believe kickboxing degrades any MA. Sure, you can't use all your techniques but at least you can get a chance to use some of them. If you can consistantly land a punch, maybe you can also land another hand technique that uses the same mechanics. I guess some of the really complicated stuff doesn't translate but thats ok, better than never getting a chance to use any of it.

[bawang]

kung fu is not complex
i take stories from water margin
"fisherman guy tries to do a double leg take down on li kui the cannibal but he is too strong and pound his head like a drum"
"wu song pretends to turn his back then kicks the guy in the nuts. this is called circle step mandarin duck leg. wu song practiced this ONE technique for his entire life"
"having mastered six harmony spear wong sifu pretends to run then flicks the stick up and hits shi jin in the nuts"
"taoist guy can't beat wu song because he is too strong. he runs and wusong chases him down and chops his back"
"taoist guy can't beat li kui because he is too strong. he chases them down and chops them to meat sauce"

[JackNate]

Sounds Cool.

[bawang]

"having mastered hitting eight sandbags from eight directions skill lu da could not be defeated by the gang"
"having mastered the thousand pound crusher(wooden weight machine) wu song can take down anyone"

what is missing in "traditional kung fu" in modern times?

[Yum Cha]

For all the san shou, kickboxing and mma guys.

Do you fight differently without gloves?



I think its prudent to simply admit, there are many ways to skin a cat. The fun of it all is testing one against another and learning from the experience.

Take the fencing metaphore (just for Gene):

Epee v broadsword
foil v sabre
Katana v cavalry sabre
etc, etc...

[Mr Punch]

"wu song pretends to turn his back then kicks the guy in the nuts. this is called circle step mandarin duck leg. wu song practiced this ONE technique for his entire life...":eek: :cool:

But...


...
"taoist guy can't beat wu song because he is too strong. he runs and wusong chases him down and chops his back"

... Should read...


"taoist guy can't beat wu song because he is too strong. he runs and wu song chases him down, overtakes him, turns his back and kicks him in the nuts.

:D

[David Jamieson]

"having mastered hitting eight sandbags from eight directions skill lu da could not be defeated by the gang"
"having mastered the thousand pound crusher(wooden weight machine) wu song can take down anyone"

what is missing in "traditional kung fu" in modern times?

right now it's missing the eight direction sandbags and the thousand pound crusher.

If we all mastered those things, we couldn't fail in an mma fight! right?

guy? right?


*crickets*

:D

[CFT]

LMAO that the validation of CMA comes from a work of fiction.

[David Jamieson]

LMAO that the validation of CMA comes from a work of fiction.

any ma is only validated by it's being used as a vehicle to victory.

[MightyB]

yeah

it was in response to my comment that i wish there was a stand up format with the tiny gloves - i think canada tried something like that but it ended up being full rules mma.

You talk'n bout this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0OprCc07Cw

[David Jamieson]

You talk'n bout this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0OprCc07Cw

isja fights are far more entertaining than ufc matches, but they didn't get off the ground so well.

[Yum Cha]

isja fights are far more entertaining than ufc matches, but they didn't get off the ground so well.

They need the men in tights....

[David Jamieson]

They need the men in tights....

true. it's definitely not ghey enough. needs more ghey to get to the level of ufc gheyness.

then it will be all the rage, what with all the latent tendencies exhibited by young men who fight anyway.

I mean who do they think they're kidding? What they really wanna do is start touching each others crew cuts and cooing anyway All sweaty in their speedos.

lol

[Yum Cha]

true. it's definitely not ghey enough. needs more ghey to get to the level of ufc gheyness.

then it will be all the rage, what with all the latent tendencies exhibited by young men who fight anyway.

I mean who do they think they're kidding? What they really wanna do is start touching each others crew cuts and cooing anyway All sweaty in their speedos.

lol

Nothing beats greased turkish wrestling when it comes to that. Reaching into the trunks to get a grip and all..... OIL CHECK!

[bawang]

right now it's missing the eight direction sandbags and the thousand pound crusher.

If we all mastered those things, we couldn't fail in an mma fight! right?

guy? right?


*crickets*

:D


hitting bags and lifting weights

thousand pound crusher is a common northern kung fu training its a wooden version of the military press machine. training for it can done exactly the same on a military press. its a common beginner training skill
punching eight sand bag in eight directions involvs punching eight ssand bags form eight directions

LMAO that the validation of CMA comes from a work of fiction.
that work of fiction gives reference to real styles and training techinques that still exist today, and shows real world of traditional martial arts: robbers and pimps and away from fantasy mountains and monks


have u read teh book or heard traditional story tellers tell the story
people in that worthless story of fiction is the people your great grand grand grandmasters heard and tried to imitate

[lkfmdc]

hitting sand bags (and dummies) and lifting weights were all standard training methods in TCMA but today people "look down" upon them in the name of utter crap like "internal" :rolleyes:

[bawang]

yeah that was point i was to maek
a veyr basic beginner kung fu skill, and super duper masters here dont know what it is

[lkfmdc]

even Sun Lu Tang, the "king" of the "internal" nonsense advocated HARD physical training like squats and push ups!


http://img.infibeam.com/img/a3068c63/743/1/9780865681743.jpg

[David Jamieson]

Many internal enthusiasts confuse themselves into thinking that light movement and visualisation will bring them strength.

this is a common problem in tcma (and others) even outside of internal.

there are still a lot of knuckleheads who say that lifting will interfere with you martial development :rolleyes:

we cannot help those people, they will have to learn the hard way.

[Pork Chop]

You talk'n bout this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0OprCc07Cw

no, not really.
not sure if it's the same format, but my friend's student fought in a sport jiujitsu tournament in florida (like that, with the gloves) and got in trouble for punching his opponent in the face. he seemed to say that the officials weren't crazy about people winning via strikes.

[lkfmdc]

Many internal enthusiasts confuse themselves into thinking that light movement and visualisation will bring them strength.

this is a common problem in tcma (and others) even outside of internal.

there are still a lot of knuckleheads who say that lifting will interfere with you martial development :rolleyes:

we cannot help those people, they will have to learn the hard way.

would those be glorified knuckleheads or just plain knuckleheads?

[TenTigers]

yes and no. My SPM teacher told me to stop weightlifting, meaning barbells and dumbells, although specific weight bearing training was to be used, such as rings, sash weights, bags, etc. He was trying to train me to develop a specific type of power issuing, and said that the weight training I was doing, was interfering with this skill development.
Frankly, I didn't see how, but nonetheless, I followed his advice.
A little over a year and a half later, my power and speed increased, and my ability to issue shock force developed.
-not sure as to the reasons why or how,
but hey, don't knock it if ya haven't tried it.

[Lokhopkuen]

I guess that the time of chastisement has passed...

One may wish to try self chastisement (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529571,00.html?test=latestnews):D

[Lokhopkuen]

I'd like to make a suggestion to solve this issue once and for all. A true, fair-dinkum, FIGHT competition.

I think there would have to be a couple of events.

Dress would be street clothing, leather shoes, trendy gear all around, gotta look good.

No gloves, for sure.

1. Chug 3 beers, just to get into the right kind of space you're likely to be in when something happens.

6 guys are your potential opponents, but you don't know which one, until he sucker punches you a good one, then its on. Hit the wrong guy, you get fined and spend the night in jail as a penalty.

You are allowed to use anything in the area that comes to hand as a weapon, as is your opponent. Stools/chairs, ashtrays, glasses, etc....

In the middle of the fight, the ref rolls a 4 sided die to see how many helpers your opponent gets. Does the same for you.

You have to win by capitulation, or within 2 minutes, before Sanjuro comes in with 10 buddies and choke the lot of you out.

Second event.

You walk up and down a street with a woman. Again, your oppoonent(s), # determinied by the roll of a d6, are walking the opposite direction. You don't know who they are until one of them sucker punches you.

Immediately thereafter, the woman grabs you and starts holding on and screaming, and you have to deal with the opponents, and the woman, without hurting her, but getting away from them. All you have to do is get away to win. No time limit.

For interest, maybe throw in a child or two as well...

Ross, whatcha reckon, could you sell tickets?
:D:D:D

Awesome! I'm gonna pitch it to the execs over at SPIKE TV along with another reality series the INTERNET BIG MOUTH CHALLENGE ;)

[lkfmdc]

One may wish to try self chastisement (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529571,00.html?test=latestnews):D

I clicked the link and......



Man Injured After Using Nail Clippers to Circumcise Himself


that was enough to close the link immediately :eek:

[Lokhopkuen]

so here's a question: what exactly is it about so-called kickboxing that makes it "un-kung fu"-like? I mean, first off, only the most virulently crazed CMA zombie would suggest that fighting should look exactly like a given stylistic form; indeed, when we see so-called "traditional" masters of disparate CMA systems demo apps, even under those controlled circumstances you start to see "drift" towards commonality - indeed, a CLF man's outer reaping throw starts looking rather like the way Northern Shaolin practitioner's looks when applied;

anyway, it seems that there are two major arguments "against" so-called kickboxing that make it a "lesser" pursuit in terms of actual fighting efficacy when contrasted to TCMA: 1) there are rules; 2) wearing gloves limits the use of certain techniques;

rules: there are rules everywhere, even on the street - if you think that a street fight doesn't have a set of rules, then you're deluded; of course, they may not be as clearly articulated, but they exist in the form of social norms, behavioral responses, environmental constraints and last but not least, the legal code; and every single one of these things will impact a street fight to varying degrees; that said, the major difference to me is the level of unpredictability, in terms of speed and degree of escalation, and a whole bunch of factors that you can't really know beforehand; however, because of this flexibility, those rules can be fluid, and it's easy to "cheat", in the sense that if faced with a street altercation, one might come up w/a solution that turns a disadvantage around in an instant; OTOH, in the ring, the rules are known, and are designed so that the playing field is leveled as much as possible, so that two things can be made the deciding factor: the skill and strength / conditioning (including mental) of the fighters; in other words, all those variables of the street are REMOVED so that, in theory, the more skilled / prepared fighter will be the winner; so say what you will, but to me, this puts ring fighting such as MT, SD, etc. on a level that makes it HARDER to prevail than on the street - and I think that a well trained San Da or MT fighter will have an easier time of it taking it to the street than the other way around, BTW...

gloves: everyone argues against using gloves, because it limits what techniques can be thrown (and I am talking about boxing gloves, not MMA); well, ok, let's first look at what wearing gloves doesn't change: footwork, distancing, timing, speed, strength, feints, power generation, any fist technique, forearms, elbows, sweeps, kicks and the majority of take-downs / throws - these all would be pretty much the same - wearing won't change much of that inherently;
so what's left? well, seems like what gloves limit is basically any sort of palm, finger or claw stuff; ok, fair enough - these are all important features in pretty much all CMA to varying degrees; ad so I guess that for a CMA person to argue that wearing gloves impacts their ability to use their style in its totality in theory is valid;

so then, here's a question for all of you traditional kung-fu-ists: the last time that any of you were in a "real" street fight, how many of you used techniques that, had you been wearing gloves, you wouldn't have been able to use? from the sound of things, all the traditionalists have had ample experience using their crane beaks, tiger claws, mantis hands, Buddha palms or ginger fists "for real"; is that the case?

Fighting is not pretty and in a hard crunch you use what works.
The only street type altercations I have been involved with in recent times have been in the course of my duties as an executive protection agent. Although stance work and alignment were strong factors leading to my success at subduing would be assailants it d*mn sure did not look like I was performing one of our traditional training forms. I tend to stick to tightly held fists, palm strikes, elbows, shoulder strikes, hip checks, knees and kicks. Nothing too exotic beyond that.

[Lokhopkuen]

kung fu is not complex
i take stories from water margin
"fisherman guy tries to do a double leg take down on li kui the cannibal but he is too strong and pound his head like a drum"
"wu song pretends to turn his back then kicks the guy in the nuts. this is called circle step mandarin duck leg. wu song practiced this ONE technique for his entire life"
"having mastered six harmony spear wong sifu pretends to run then flicks the stick up and hits shi jin in the nuts"
"taoist guy can't beat wu song because he is too strong. he runs and wusong chases him down and chops his back"
"taoist guy can't beat li kui because he is too strong. he chases them down and chops them to meat sauce"


Bawang is cool:D

[lkfmdc]

Fighting is not pretty and in a hard crunch you use what works.
The only street type altercations I have been involved with in recent times have been in the course of my duties as an executive protection agent. Although stance work and alignment were strong factors leading to my success at subduing would be assailants it d*mn sure did not look like I was performing one of our traditional training forms. I tend to stick to tightly held fists, palm strikes, elbows, shoulder strikes, hip checks, knees and kicks. Nothing too exotic beyond that.

yeah, I'd agree with all fo that...

on the "outside" you are going to ball up your fist or smack the crap outta them

on the "inside" it's all "fa jing" ; shouders, elbows, forearms, knees, hips

the obvious problem is that to some on here that is just "glorified kickboxing"

[Lokhopkuen]

Many internal enthusiasts confuse themselves into thinking that light movement and visualisation will bring them strength.

this is a common problem in tcma (and others) even outside of internal.

there are still a lot of knuckleheads who say that lifting will interfere with you martial development :rolleyes:

we cannot help those people, they will have to learn the hard way.

There is no external without internal is there? I'm not talking about "chi punch" blow the candles out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ZjjMBXMpk) I'm talking about (at least from our system) four conscious principles of Breath- which dictates how long one can endure in a physical endeavor. Posture, Skills acquired & Gung Fu- Hard work overtime as opposed to external skills of Hand, Eye, Foot and Waist.

[Lokhopkuen]

yeah, I'd agree with all fo that...

on the "outside" you are going to ball up your fist or smack the crap outta them

on the "inside" it's all "fa jing" ; shouders, elbows, forearms, knees, hips

the obvious problem is that to some on here that is just "glorified kickboxing"

Folks can place any name on it but a fight is a fight. It ain't nothing fancy and when the going gets ugly everybody gets hit no matter your style and whatever your s'possed level. One of the vids you showed where your students were taking hits for an extended period, that's good shizzle. Everybody is a tough guy until they get punched in the mouth! To be a good fighter and a great martial artist you gotta be able to resist a blow and you have to be able to strike back with real force.

[David Jamieson]

There is no external without internal is there? I'm not talking about "chi punch" blow the candles out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ZjjMBXMpk) I'm talking about (at least from our system) four conscious principles of Breath- which dictates how long one can endure in a physical endeavor. Posture, Skills acquired & Gung Fu- Hard work overtime as opposed to external skills of Hand, Eye, Foot and Waist.

I'm fine with categorinzing the methods and what part of the body gets developed.

You and I and everyone are an entire being and not separated by our outside and inside, it all functions as a unit.

the problem in so called internal ma is the lack of strength and conditioning development in the training methods as they are today.

TaiChi players in particular lack strength and conditioning and thus they render a martial art into nothing more than joint exercise that would be akin to a light swim in the pool and a short walk.

To be a good martial artist, you and I and everyone else who wants to do it has to develop strength and conditioning and must also be willing to use the skills if need be.

Not to be soft and weak and not willing to fight. Those are not the hallmarks of a martial artist. :)

[David Jamieson]

...also are you involved with that film? It looks like a lot of fun!

[lkfmdc]

Folks can place any name on it but a fight is a fight. It ain't nothing fancy and when the going gets ugly everybody gets hit no matter your style and whatever your s'possed level. One of the vids you showed where your students were taking hits for an extended period, that's good shizzle. Everybody is a tough guy until they get punched in the mouth! To be a good fighter and a great martial artist you gotta be able to resist a blow and you have to be able to strike back with real force.

people get hung up on "special" and "unique" and the whole "secrets of mystical asia" nonsense

chi sau, push hands, rou shou

or

hand fighting, pummeling, neck wrestling

I have a student with a lot of background in REAL push hands (competed in Taiwan)

pardon the French but "all the **** is the same"

[David Jamieson]

people get hung up on "special" and "unique" and the whole "secrets of mystical asia" nonsense

chi sau, push hands, rou shou

or

hand fighting, pummeling, neck wrestling

I have a student with a lot of background in REAL push hands (competed in Taiwan)

pardon the French but "all the **** is the same"

lol @ "REAL Push Hands®"

The next logical step in sticky hands, rolling hands, pushing hands, et al is grappling & throwing.

If you are in a fight and are that close to a person that you are absolutely connected, then it logically either steps out and goes back to striking, or locks, throws and takedowns get applied.

Why not go the distance? Especially at competition levels.

[lkfmdc]

I just mean not the fairy crap where if you use any force they disqualify you and they want almost no body contact

that is NOT what push hands looks like in Asia

[David Jamieson]

I just mean not the fairy crap where if you use any force they disqualify you and they want almost no body contact

that is NOT what push hands looks like in Asia

yes understood.

IE: they use considerable force and tension is readily detectable by the observer. Meanwhile over here, it's a touch-fest where they chase chi butterflies around each others inguinal crease area for a few minutes and then ponder it together over tea afterwards, preferably pu ehr or perhaps chamomile if it's hot outside.

:D

[Lokhopkuen]

I'm fine with categorinzing the methods and what part of the body gets developed.

You and I and everyone are an entire being and not separated by our outside and inside, it all functions as a unit.

the problem in so called internal ma is the lack of strength and conditioning development in the training methods as they are today.

TaiChi players in particular lack strength and conditioning and thus they render a martial art into nothing more than joint exercise that would be akin to a light swim in the pool and a short walk.

To be a good martial artist, you and I and everyone else who wants to do it has to develop strength and conditioning and must also be willing to use the skills if need be.

Not to be soft and weak and not willing to fight. Those are not the hallmarks of a martial artist. :)

I call those the hippie Tai Chi crowd and we have a lot of 'em out here.
I was playing stationary push with this one guy in the park who was telling me my Tai Chi is all wrong and my this and that was outta wack and he kept whining about me making him take steps back, how unorthodox my style was. I laughed and said oh that's nothing and tossed him on his back with "part the wild horse's mane". So all angry he runs and got the Sheriff to ha ha arrest me, who I just happen to know from teaching at the rec center. The Deputy and I had a big giggle after the guy left:D Thank goodness he didn't Chi Punch me!

[lkfmdc]

Taai Gihk Yaan and I have discussed this to death

there is nothing WRONG with using the Chinese conceptions/world view to describe things, but at the end of the day it's all the same

The same mechanics I use to describe things in WESTERN terms to my students can be explained by the so called "Tai Chi Classics" stuff

[lkfmdc]

lol @ "REAL Push Hands®"

The next logical step in sticky hands, rolling hands, pushing hands, et al is grappling & throwing.

If you are in a fight and are that close to a person that you are absolutely connected, then it logically either steps out and goes back to striking, or locks, throws and takedowns get applied.

Why not go the distance? Especially at competition levels.

another frequent discussion amongst the anguished :D

what is it about CMA that they take drills and rarify them to the point they become an obsession removed from the context?

maybe I don't have the right words for that, but Taai Gihk Yan will :D

[Hitman]

"Stop teaching students the apps of techniques, give them puffy gloves and shin guards ... start preaching the benefits of 'stripping down' the MA, getting to the essentials ... how all the 'traditional' stuff is too slow to compete, has to be 'optimized', etc.

Is this why all MA lineages seem to turn into kickboxing in the end? "

Hi Andy,
How you train is how you fight. If you have not been trained properly in a TCMA school, then you will use the most basic punches and kicks in a fight or fight like a five years old. This is because you cannot apply what you have learnt in your school during a fight, but you can easily fight like an untrained kickboxer, without much training.

Some Chinese martial arts schools teachers only teach forms, then they tell their students they could fight. This is no better than telling dancers that they could fight with their dance routines.
In our fast food society, not many people wanted to spend their time in training, but they all wanted to call themselves experts after taking a few lessons. They blindly believed those famous adverts we seems in some martial arts magazines, e.g. learning style X and you could defeat anyone after 48 hours of training! (from China)

You can become a bodyguard instructor after attending a 5 days course. (UK)

Therefore, those people will fight like untrained kickboxers in a fight, because they have not been trained properly.

Here is something for you to think about.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=244

On Sanda
The modern wuxia (literally "martial knight", a genre of martial fiction) books with flying and such are not real Wushu. Those movies are actually preventing the Wushu healthy development because they are so exaggerated. You cannot put Wushu into a fairytale. You must bring their scientific side out. It must be based on science. Critics shouldn't press down Wushu with comments like Chinese sanda can not fight against Thai fighters. Wushu is something you can train and practice, but it also has combat. If we cannot compete against Thai boxing, it is because the method was not right. Nowadays, those Wushu professionals learn for four years in college. That's too short to learn Wushu in depth.

For example, in 1999, there was a fight in Hawaii (China vs. U.S.A. Art of War) where my son was a referee. It was not so good. I criticized our sanda in front of the top leaders. Our sanda looked like yin yang ren (yin and yang mixed up in one body) because the sanda technique there did not contain Wushu. It only had some western boxing, and even the boxing was not that good. I was one of the first Chinese to train boxing under a western expert and I was a world champion. The kicks didn't look like Chinese kicks. Chinese martial arts have beautiful kicks but nobody there could do them. It's just like wearing traditional Chinese attire with a western mustache. You look "in between." You can't tell the difference between a sanda strike, Korean, Thai, or Japanese.

I was the first sanda champion in 1952. I was only 19. They only had three divisions - lightweight 54 kilos, middleweight 54- 80 kilos, heavyweight 80+ kilos. I was a middleweight. In that time, Shaolin, Wudang, Xingyi, Bagua, everyone came out to fight. But you could tell which system they belong too. Now in sanda, you cannot tell. No character. Even in boxing, you can tell the different styles, British from American. Now no one takes the time to learn basic Wushu. The problem is that basic Wushu training is too weak. Nobody bothers to study what is Chinese sanda or what is Wushu.

In the future for sanda, we should put more Chinese martial arts in it. Actually over the last 100 years, Chinese martial arts were only talked about on paper because you couldn't physically fight. Now we can fight again. That is good. However recently, some Chinese media have exaggerated saying Wushu is so good that they beat up Russian fighters. But the Russian was not a boxer, he was a weight lifter. Chinese people like to boast because we have this national pride. The reason for this is that we were so weak for the last 50 years. The British and Japanese came in and took our land away. Our spirit was weak and our countries physical might was weak. So we exaggerate the result of any little something because we want to overcompensate. Now we really should use the scientific method on our Wushu. If you say you have some extreme secret technique, you should examine it scientifically and find out how it works. You cannot just have it in the mouth or on the paper. That's not going to the real. What is the experimental lab of Wushu? That is the tournament or the battlefield

[lkfmdc]

I'll start with the most obvious observation, your profile says you have 2 years of training? :rolleyes:

But, aside from that, are you saying that in the ENTIRE WORLD there is no one who has trained correctly or long enough to show us the "real stuff" in a REAL FIGHT?

That's the heart of the issue for all of those who think a fight should look "like kung fu".... Every conceivable clip or example with a real resisting person you claim looks like "kickboxing" but you can't put up a SINGLE CLIP of someone figting "like kung fu"

** unless of course you put up STAGED, ie FAKE, pseudo fights from a Chinese TV show :rolleyes:





Hi Andy,
How you train is how you fight. If you have not been trained properly in a TCMA school, then you will use the most basic punches and kicks in a fight or fight like a five years old. This is because you cannot apply what you have learnt in your school during a fight, but you can easily fight like an untrained kickboxer, without much training.

Some Chinese martial arts schools teachers only teach forms, then they tell their students they could fight. This is no better than telling dancers that they could fight with their dance routines.
In our fast food society, not many people wanted to spend their time in training, but they all wanted to call themselves experts after taking a few lessons. They blindly believed those famous adverts we seems in some martial arts magazines, e.g. learning style X and you could defeat anyone after 48 hours of training! (from China)

[Lokhopkuen]

I'm fine with categorinzing the methods and what part of the body gets developed.

You and I and everyone are an entire being and not separated by our outside and inside, it all functions as a unit.

the problem in so called internal ma is the lack of strength and conditioning development in the training methods as they are today.

TaiChi players in particular lack strength and conditioning and thus they render a martial art into nothing more than joint exercise that would be akin to a light swim in the pool and a short walk.

To be a good martial artist, you and I and everyone else who wants to do it has to develop strength and conditioning and must also be willing to use the skills if need be.

Not to be soft and weak and not willing to fight. Those are not the hallmarks of a martial artist. :)

No Argument from me there.

[cerebus]

I'll start with the most obvious observation, your profile says you have 2 years of training? :rolleyes:

But, aside from that, are you saying that in the ENTIRE WORLD there is no one who has trained correctly or long enough to show us the "real stuff" in a REAL FIGHT?

That's the heart of the issue for all of those who think a fight should look "like kung fu".... Every conceivable clip or example with a real resisting person you claim looks like "kickboxing" but you can't put up a SINGLE CLIP of someone figting "like kung fu"

** unless of course you put up STAGED, ie FAKE, pseudo fights from a Chinese TV show :rolleyes:

The quote was actually from Ma Xianda (and was put up without quotation marks, and is therefore confusing) and is from the article that Hitman posted the link to...

[lkfmdc]

actually, if you look at what I quoted, I was quoting all stuff "hitman" wrote

as for Sifu Ma, well, a lot of it is "when I was young, THOSE were the giants" and, yeah, I should add, Xia Bahua disagrees with him

[MightyB]

people get hung up on "special" and "unique" and the whole "secrets of mystical asia" nonsense

chi sau, push hands, rou shou

or

hand fighting, pummeling, neck wrestling

I have a student with a lot of background in REAL push hands (competed in Taiwan)

pardon the French but "all the **** is the same"

I wonder why it got so "hippified" in the USA. Here's some basic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft_ZtX9wRdA
You definitely see straining and force. They even start with a wrestling tie-up.

This video shows why at one time Tai Chi appealed to the Chinese Wrestlers.

[andyhaas]

Hi Andy,
How you train is how you fight. If you have not been trained properly in a TCMA school, then you will use the most basic punches and kicks in a fight or fight like a five years old. This is because you cannot apply what you have learnt in your school during a fight, but you can easily fight like an untrained kickboxer, without much training.

Yeah -- I 'm a bad example because I learned to fight as a kid in the schoolground, so whenever I fight, it turns into kickboxing basically.

But most tourneys freak out over ANY type of TCMA technique beyond kickboxing.

Maybe I just suck but the only techs I've used beyond kickboxing in a tourney were pretty much heel hooks (nailed the guy, then warned not to use them), and then side-hand ... (that was allowed, funny enough).

IMHO schools should probably just teach kickboxing prior to anything else.

[Lokhopkuen]

Yeah -- I 'm a bad example because I learned to fight as a kid in the schoolground, so whenever I fight, it turns into kickboxing basically.

But most tourneys freak out over ANY type of TCMA technique beyond kickboxing.

Maybe I just suck but the only techs I've used beyond kickboxing in a tourney were pretty much heel hooks (nailed the guy, then warned not to use them), and then side-hand ... (that was allowed, funny enough).

IMHO schools should probably just teach kickboxing prior to anything else.

There's some cute chicks in kickboxing class:cool:

[David Jamieson]

There's some cute chicks in kickboxing class:cool:

They're usually hotter in the boxercise/yoga class.. :D

[Eric Olson]

Kung fu is Ti, Da, Shuai and Na...ie kick, strike, throw and lock. People get into kung fu because they're all excited about the striking and kicking and totally forget about the throwing and locking.

In most kung tournaments you will see continuous sparring which only allows kicking and striking...within narrowly defined rules. San Da ups the ante with throws. MMA allows groundfighting but not locking as this could potentially mame someone for life. Other styles emphasize throwing and locking almost exclusively ie aikido, judo, japanese jujistu, tai ji, etc. so you won't see hardly ever see those people enter something like San Da or continuous sparring.

So what you end up with mostly is people from styles that emphasize kicking and striking competing in competitions that only allow kicking and striking. Hence, it all looks like kickboxing.


EO

[Eddie]

I assume you havent watched many REAL san shou fights. In China, they focus more on shuai fa than anything else. San shou is just as much about throwing and wrestling than it is about kicking and punching.

Its funny how people cling to the term “Chinese Martial Arts” in reference to what they think it should be, when even the Chinese realize that any modern style fighting should mostly just be about fighting.

I’ve seen people use their “traditional” knowledge in San Da. They simply apply the basics and methods in an effective way. Non of them looked like Huang Fei Hong in OUATIC films.

[Eric Olson]

I assume you havent watched many REAL san shou fights. In China, they focus more on shuai fa than anything else. San shou is just as much about throwing and wrestling than it is about kicking and punching.

Its funny how people cling to the term “Chinese Martial Arts” in reference to what they think it should be, when even the Chinese realize that any modern style fighting should mostly just be about fighting.

I’ve seen people use their “traditional” knowledge in San Da. They simply apply the basics and methods in an effective way. Non of them looked like Huang Fei Hong in OUATIC films.

I haven't ever been to China if that's what you mean, but I've seen alot of pro bouts via internet and TV. I usually do see a good mix of striking, kicking and throwing.

And when you think about self-defense in general, doesn't dropping someone on their head, make more sense than trying to hunt for their head with punches? Of course, there will be situations where punching makes more sense but I'm speaking generally.

However, in the western version of martial arts its all about punching people in the head. Maybe because of the influence of boxing, or simply watching too many Clint Eastwood
movies.

When I used to free spar with boxers I'd always attack their legs. Why? Because they had no idea how to deal with it. Suddenly, they were rethinking those balls out, uber-committed punches because they risked getting their front leg sweeped.

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have a simple view of MA:
I hit people, they fall down and don't get back up.
I can live with that, no matter what it looks like.

[Lucas]

I have a simple view of MA:
I hit people, they fall down and don't get back up.
I can live with that, no matter what it looks like.

That outlook is the difference between people with actual fight experience and people who assume far too much.

When it comes down to it, dont you want to be the one walking away in the end, rather than carried?

[Lokhopkuen]

They're usually hotter in the boxercise/yoga class.. :D

At Bikram it's 120º and theys praktiklee nekid:D

[Lokhopkuen]

I have a simple view of MA:
I hit people, they fall down and don't get back up.
I can live with that, no matter what it looks like.

U soo baaaddd!!:p Now a days I can knock a man down from just pure Gran Torino old guy meaness Rrrrrrr!!

[David Jamieson]

At Bikram it's 120º and theys praktiklee nekid:D

Indeed. I haven't visited a Bikram's place in a while.
hmmmn.

:p

[Yum Cha]

yes and no. My SPM teacher told me to stop weightlifting, meaning barbells and dumbells, although specific weight bearing training was to be used, such as rings, sash weights, bags, etc. He was trying to train me to develop a specific type of power issuing, and said that the weight training I was doing, was interfering with this skill development.
Frankly, I didn't see how, but nonetheless, I followed his advice.
A little over a year and a half later, my power and speed increased, and my ability to issue shock force developed.
-not sure as to the reasons why or how,
but hey, don't knock it if ya haven't tried it.


BING! You may advance to the next level now....+3 damage

[ittokaos]

Stop teaching students the apps of techniques, give them puffy gloves and shin guards ... start preaching the benefits of 'stripping down' the MA, getting to the essentials ... how all the 'traditional' stuff is too slow to compete, has to be 'optimized', etc.

Is this why all MA lineages seem to turn into kickboxing in the end?

Yes, dumb ideas like this are the reason.:D

The reason is simple. Lack of training. If you dont train in your style, you will fall back on kickboxing because you are overwhelmed and its easy to do. Here are some extra reasons if you need more.

a) you were never taught how to fight with your style(only forms or sparred way too early)

b)you learned how to deal with an attacker while using your style but never really learned how to produce significant force with techniques that seem akward.

c)fear. afraid of getting hit and realized that puching and kicking randomly is easier than remembering what technique is better to use in this situation. also, it scares the opponent and keeps them at bay and you from harm, due to reach(that is unless your opponent is not a wuss and charges in or is smart and goes around).

d)flat out lack of confidence in the style you are learning due to: your sifu/sensei/guru sucks, MMA's cooler and those guys get girls, your stances get you laughed at, Jackie Chan and Jet Li don't do it, Naruto can summon a frog and you don't even get a headband(this dude wears tabi everywhere), it's not like you pictured it in your head(this one is for a lot of guys), never really studied the combat applications of the style, someone told you the your style sucks and that kickboxing is better, etc....

While some of these reasons seem stupid and funny, they are perhaps the truest reasons I have found as to why this happens. That and the fact that point sparring is toooo popular. It teaches you that you need to kickbox in order to win trophies. It's hard to unlearn apparently.


--peace

[Yum Cha]

I'm fine with categorinzing the methods and what part of the body gets developed.

You and I and everyone are an entire being and not separated by our outside and inside, it all functions as a unit.

the problem in so called internal ma is the lack of strength and conditioning development in the training methods as they are today.

TaiChi players in particular lack strength and conditioning and thus they render a martial art into nothing more than joint exercise that would be akin to a light swim in the pool and a short walk.

To be a good martial artist, you and I and everyone else who wants to do it has to develop strength and conditioning and must also be willing to use the skills if need be.

Not to be soft and weak and not willing to fight. Those are not the hallmarks of a martial artist. :)

Yea, yea, yea, go ahead and pick on the tai chi folks. Easy targets with all them old snow tops slo-mo-ing it in the park. Hey, I get what you mean. Honestly...

BUT, one of the best prizefighters I know, a bare knuckler who did the underground circuit in HK says the only guy that totally controlled him was a Tai Chi teacher 40 years older. Just kept pushing him down. He couldn't land a square blow...

Go figure. :confused:

[Yum Cha]

I have a simple view of MA:
I hit people, they fall down and don't get back up.
I can live with that, no matter what it looks like.


As the saying goes, 90% of all fights go to the ground......

....at least one guy, anyway...

[Lokhopkuen]

I'm fine with categorinzing the methods and what part of the body gets developed.

You and I and everyone are an entire being and not separated by our outside and inside, it all functions as a unit.

the problem in so called internal ma is the lack of strength and conditioning development in the training methods as they are today.

TaiChi players in particular lack strength and conditioning and thus they render a martial art into nothing more than joint exercise that would be akin to a light swim in the pool and a short walk.

To be a good martial artist, you and I and everyone else who wants to do it has to develop strength and conditioning and must also be willing to use the skills if need be.

Not to be soft and weak and not willing to fight. Those are not the hallmarks of a martial artist. :)

A note on categorizing:
It's a given that the body in and of it's self is a unified whole, the categories I mentioned are a series of stratified "attainments" along a "check list" but then you knew that didn't you, you cheeky 'lil devil you:D

[Eddie]

I haven't ever been to China if that's what you mean, but I've seen alot of pro bouts via internet and TV. I usually do see a good mix of striking, kicking and throwing.

And when you think about self-defense in general, doesn't dropping someone on their head, make more sense than trying to hunt for their head with punches? Of course, there will be situations where punching makes more sense but I'm speaking generally.

However, in the western version of martial arts its all about punching people in the head. Maybe because of the influence of boxing, or simply watching too many Clint Eastwood
movies.

When I used to free spar with boxers I'd always attack their legs. Why? Because they had no idea how to deal with it. Suddenly, they were rethinking those balls out, uber-committed punches because they risked getting their front leg sweeped.

EO


Sorry, I actually didnt reply to you, though I can now see why it may appear that way.

But I agree with you. San Shou is supposed to be a good balance. As a sport, I think its highly under rated.

[Sim Koning]

Stop teaching students the apps of techniques, give them puffy gloves and shin guards ... start preaching the benefits of 'stripping down' the MA, getting to the essentials ... how all the 'traditional' stuff is too slow to compete, has to be 'optimized', etc.

Is this why all MA lineages seem to turn into kickboxing in the end?



What do you expect? How many ways do you think there really are to punch and kick? Are you expecting the kind of dance like perfectly timed unrealistic blocks of the movies? The silly unrealistic movements fabricated by opera performers? With all the Chinese martial arts I've trained in (Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Jow Gar, Praying Mantis, Chang Quan, Tai Chi...) they pretty much all can be broken down to ONE form ( more forms take up time and make more money) most of the time, and once you strip away all the performance oriented fluff, you have something that looks like a mix of kickboxing and wrestling. In fact China's oldest martial art, the one probably most widely used by the military (this continues today) is WRESTLING!



Case and point > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjmnMaCk2Y Doesn't really look like the old Hong Kong movies does it? It does look like some of the stuff you see in sanda though... Not saying sanda and shuai jiao are very closely related BTW






Actually, the TRUTH is ... very simple ...

You hit anybody in the nose or face hard enough to hurt them ... they BLEED ... (or just go ow ... I want to stop) = end of the competition fight.

Therefore, competition fighting = mostly watered down boxing with puffy gloves on so it goes on longer. Case closed.



Google MMA or UFC, you will see lots of people continuing to fight after getting punched with not so *puffy* gloves. BTW those puffy gloves kinda hurt and tend to make you take sudden naps when you get hit hard enough by them. Not to mention shin bones and knees aren't exactly what I would call nice and soft.






But quality kickboxing is superior to well... there aren't any venues for kungfu fighting now are there? are there? or is everyone too afraid they will kill their opponent with their special deadly that only they have in their lineage?



Here is an old video of Ba Ji guys fighting with gloves. Looks like Baji to me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4


It seems like the West is the side that has the problem with too many Kung Fu "masters" like this guy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9OJv0IeSLw

Like my Chinese girlfriend told me, "most Sifus here just want to make money, most of them can't fight and are not very good, but Americans don't know any better"



BTW before any of you get offended by the video, my girlfriend thought he was really Chinese lol. "SNAKE HIM DOWN!" LMAO






That's kindof what I'm saying ... is that watered down kenpo kickboxing = mostly kickboxing. Watered down karate kickboxing = mostly kickboxing. Watered down TKD kickboxing = mostly kickboxing. Watered down CMA kickboxing aka sanda is still mostly kickboxing (albeit with some weird throws sometimes).

So why different terminology? A new crowd expecting something new, I guess, that hasn't seen the old stuff. But each does have a different twist to it -- not every one is the same.


I think because a Thai boxer does not fight like a TKD guy, and a TKD guy does not fight like a sanda fighter. They may not be as different as the snake and crane style, or have bagua circle stepping, but they are still different.

[jmd161]

so here's a question: what exactly is it about so-called kickboxing that makes it "un-kung fu"-like? I mean, first off, only the most virulently crazed CMA zombie would suggest that fighting should look exactly like a given stylistic form; indeed, when we see so-called "traditional" masters of disparate CMA systems demo apps, even under those controlled circumstances you start to see "drift" towards commonality - indeed, a CLF man's outer reaping throw starts looking rather like the way Northern Shaolin practitioner's looks when applied;

anyway, it seems that there are two major arguments "against" so-called kickboxing that make it a "lesser" pursuit in terms of actual fighting efficacy when contrasted to TCMA: 1) there are rules; 2) wearing gloves limits the use of certain techniques;

I don't think the problem lies with kickboxing, in fact I'd put money on any trained kick boxer over your average trained kung fu stylist. I think the problem is that most kung fu stylist use kick boxing type punches and kicks when ever they fight, which is not what they were training. So what you get is half arse kick boxing instead of anything else. If you're gonna end up kick boxing you might as well learn from a kick boxing coach than a so called traditional sifu who's teaching you the half arsed stuff.

I think too many people do believe that kung fu fighting will look like what they see in the movies.:rolleyes:

jeff:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

That outlook is the difference between people with actual fight experience and people who assume far too much.

When it comes down to it, dont you want to be the one walking away in the end, rather than carried?

That is all it comes down to bro.
Besides, since KB comes from Kung fu, why shouldn't kung fu look like KB?
That's like complaining that sword fighting looks like swordsmanship.

[TenTigers]

gwa, kup, sow,been, etc thrown from a boxing stance doesn't utilize the structure the same way, Sure, they may look similar to you, but to call it Gung-Fu is like calling a transvestite a woman.
ergo-Kickboxing
Years ago, and this goes back to what lkfmdc said before, many so-called "Masters" really didn't have that much training or knowledge. When it came to teaching their students anything other than forms collecting, they were at a loss. Many people entered open Karate tournaments and brought those skills to the table. Why? Because it's all they knew, and it worked for them.
ergo-Kickboxing
Some Sifus brought in students who were kickboxers and pka fighters as well.
ergo-Kickboxing
Western Boxing striking technique is easier for the beginner student to pick up and devlelop a reasonable amount of skill at earlier stages. It's more familiar to them, due to the fact that they have been exposed to these strikes since childhood, from movies, TV, parents, schoolyards, etc. Therefore they feel more confident, and are reaping the benefits of Martial Arts training, and the schools have better retention.
ergo-Kickboxing
It's **** effective, easier to learn, better resources (not enough competent Sifus teaching fighting) easier to incorperate. In general-the sh1t works.
ergo-Kickboxing

look, it doesn't make it bad. It is what it is.

[lkfmdc]

gwa, kup, sow,been, etc thrown from a boxing stance doesn't utilize the structure the same way, Sure, they may look similar to you,



I'm pretty sure I know what "REAL" gwa, kup (KAHP), sow (SO), been (BIN) etc look like TT, shame on you if you really want to continue that argument :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

it was meant as a general "you," and not so much a specific "you."
onward.
but, don't you agree that to derive the full power generation of the aforementioned strikes, it requires a different method of utilizing the body, which is not (I am not saying it cannot) used from a kickboxer's stance. Some people are good at sudden switches of stance, height, width, facing etc.
Frankly, if you can sidestep,dodge, duck, bob and weave, you can do these quick body shifts. It's just that it is not seen.

[lkfmdc]

don't you agree that to derive the full power generation of the aforementioned strikes, it requires a different method of utilizing the body, which is not (I am not saying it cannot) used from a kickboxer's stance.



it's called footwork and angles, and believe it or not, GOOD BOXING has those also

there is a lot of crappy boxing and kickboxing in the world, trust me

but there is even more crappy CMA unfortunately

[TenTigers]

I'm pretty sure I know what "REAL" gwa, kup (KAHP), sow (SO), been (BIN) etc look like TT, shame on you if you really want to continue that argument :rolleyes:
I am most certain you do. We all know your backround and your Sifu, CTS. No argument there lkfmdc.

[TenTigers]

trust me

but there is even more crappy CMA unfortunately
agree wholeheartedly

[TenTigers]

it's called footwork and angles, and believe it or not, GOOD BOXING has those also

which is why I mentioned it. I recognize that there are kickboxers, and mma fighters who also switch body movement to facilitate striking, to kicking, to grappling, and I'm not saying it is impossible to do so with Gung-Fu. Finding those who are doing that is the problem. Again, it boils down to crappy TMA, crappy Boxing, crappy grappling, etc
. Finding instruction and finding quality instruction are two different things.

[Pork Chop]

which is why I mentioned it. I recognize that there are kickboxers, and mma fighters who also switch body movement to facilitate striking, to kicking, to grappling, and I'm not saying it is impossible to do so with Gung-Fu. Finding those who are doing that is the problem.

That's the thing, I've tried those long arm combos that I loved in forms from both a kung fu framework (stance, distance, etc) AND a kickboxing framework & still found a small percentage of it to work for me. If I was to use it, I would re-prioritize it around what does work for me and build my training around that. ie I love clf-style gwa-sow in forms but it's a low percentage technique for me, meanwhile i was having some success with leaking a charp through and following up with something else, so I'd prioritize that in the training.

[TenTigers]

it's funny-the more I study footwork, the more I see stances. The difference is that with good footwork, the body is in constant motion, constant change. The stances are all there, it's simply knowing how and when to set up your strikes. Everyone has their favorite technique, a good fighter learns how to set it up, so that he can always hit you with it.

[lkfmdc]

it's funny-the more I study footwork, the more I see stances. The difference is that with good footwork, the body is in constant motion, constant change. The stances are all there, it's simply knowing how and when to set up your strikes. Everyone has their favorite technique, a good fighter learns how to set it up, so that he can always hit you with it.

on this we agree 100%

again, the problem is the obession in CMA to freeze all motion into stagnant "stances" and to obsess on them without context

[TenTigers]

It boils down to crap teachers. Too many teachers teaching an art they do not comprehend. Stances are a moment in time. To stand there like a statue is suicidal. So is the block, block, block, then land your decisive, one punch kill technique. These people have never fought. Not once.
You don't have to be a seasoned streetfighter to know how a fight goes down.
Anyone whose been in ONE real fight in his life knows this.
Heck, anyone who has SEEN a real fight knows this.
Which is what really concerns me.:(

[Pork Chop]

I guess you're right that it's more a matter of footwork and angles.
it's funny, southpaw boxing strategy is very similar with its priority on positional dominance - much moreso than a lot of orthodox-orthodox boxing or muay thai.
I just gotta find the angles to pull off the gwa-sow; probably works better with same stance (ie both left foot forward, etc) to use from outside gate across that lead hand.

[jmd161]

The difference is that with good footwork, the body is in constant motion, constant change. The stances are all there, it's simply knowing how and when to set up your strikes. Everyone has their favorite technique, a good fighter learns how to set it up, so that he can always hit you with it.


Bingo!

I think a big problem with using TCMA to fight with is, that you have to change everything you're accustomed to doing. TCMA teaches you angles and methods to help you get away from your opponents power and put you in better striking position. Growing up and learning to fight on your own you learn to move, but not so much in the manner in which TCMA teaches you. It takes a lot of hard work and practice to re-train the body to move in this manner naturally. Thus, another problem the time and effort it takes... The average person doesn't have the time or patience to just work on re-training themselves. The average person will attempt to and once they feel they have it down somewhat, they will move on. Then when pressed by someone with equal or better skill they result to what they've done most their life, which is the kicking and punching poor kick boxing skills.

Although the average person has never trained any boxing. Your average person will adapt a boxers stance when fighting, because that's what they've seen their entire life. When you learn to fight as a kid you always threw your hands up in a boxer type pose. Everythig you learned as you grew was adapted to or came from using this pose/stance. Now comes TCMA that teaches you to change that pose and adapt a different stance and throw different strikes other than just jab, cross , hook etc..


It boils down to crap teachers. Too many teachers teaching an art they do not comprehend. Stances are a moment in time. To stand there like a statue is suicidal. So is the block, block, block, then land your decisive, one punch kill technique. These people have never fought. Not once.
You don't have to be a seasoned streetfighter to know how a fight goes down.
Anyone whose been in ONE real fight in his life knows this.
Heck, anyone who has SEEN a real fight knows this.
Which is what really concerns me.

This is very much true!

I always say how can someone that has never fought themselves teach you how to fight? Much less how can they teach you to fight with techniques they themself have never used?

jeff:)

[TenTigers]

what's funny is, real boxing, or kickboxing skills are NOT easy. Crap is easy.
Real footwork is hard to learn. Crap, not so hard.
Real Gung-Fu is hard to find. Crap, not so hard.

[lkfmdc]

Growing up and learning to fight on your own you learn to move, but not so much in the manner in which TCMA teaches you. It takes a lot of hard work and practice to re-train the body to move in this manner naturally. Thus, another problem the time and effort it takes... The average person doesn't have the time or patience to just work on re-training themselves. The average person will attempt to and once they feel they have it down somewhat, they will move on. Then when pressed by someone with equal or better skill they result to what they've done most their life, which is the kicking and punching poor kick boxing skills.

Although the average person has never trained any boxing. Your average person will adapt a boxers stance when fighting, because that's what they've seen their entire life.



I disagree with this....

TCMA tries to teach people to move not only in unnatural ways, but INEFFECTIVE ways... too much obsessing on trying to look like a complicated form, or some "secret" something or other blah blah

Fighting is hard enough without thinking you have to look like a classical tai chi posture while you are doing it

But really, it's all crap because basic kung fu is parrying, shielding, punching, kicking, knees and trips... The problem is that instead of drilling these the average TCMA student is busy learning the "secret form" :rolleyes:

[jmd161]

I disagree with this....

TCMA tries to teach people to move not only in unnatural ways, but INEFFECTIVE ways... too much obsessing on trying to look like a complicated form, or some "secret" something or other blah blah

Fighting is hard enough without thinking you have to look like a classical tai chi posture while you are doing it

But really, it's all crap because basic kung fu is parrying, shielding, punching, kicking, knees and trips... The problem is that instead of drilling these the average TCMA student is busy learning the "secret form" :rolleyes:


What you just described is what I was speaking of and what Ten Tigers said CRAPPY TEACHERS!

I've had many sifu that have tried to teach me that way and take me down that path. I knew it was not a path I wanted to go down and I sought out another sifu. I've been with him now close to 8 yrs and not once has he tried to force any " unnatural " or " INEFFECTIVE " ways on me. He from day one has taught me from a fighters view because that's what he trained TCMA for to fight. He sought out a fighter to learn from. You yourself say Chan Tai San was a fighter and this made him a great sifu. If he tried to take you down that path although he knew it wasn't right, then that's just something he chose to do.

I'm not saying he did just going by what i've read from what you wrote about the man. My sifu only looks at kung fu from a fighting point of view, if it doesn't work or is wasted movement he's going to tell you that and show you somthing more useful. He's old school but smart enough to know that old school ways are not always right or the best methods. He evolves where many choose not to, and at 60 yrs old will go to the floor to fight with you as well. Like he says many choose to get rich teaching BS kung fu, why not get rich teaching the real deal effective stuff, if you're trying to make money? I'll answer that... because it's much easier to teach bull cr@p than it is to train bust your ass and teach the real stuff! Why be a fighter when you can just talk big and pose as one?



jeff:)

[lkfmdc]

I've said it before, CTS was just as much a victim of TCMA as anyone. He knew how to fight, what worked in a fight, and if you asked him he'd show you

Yet time was still spent on forms, and on things in forms that if you asked him he'd tell you would NEVER work... but like "fiddler on the roof" it went along with everyone singing "tradition! tradition!"

And remember, THAT WAS A TEACHER WHO COULD ACTUALLY FIGHT

so when you have also a TON of crappy teachers out there, CMA has ended up the way it is

But, again, if people think that fighting is something you "aspire" to after long training, you are missing the boat

[Pork Chop]

Although the average person has never trained any boxing. Your average person will adapt a boxers stance when fighting, because that's what they've seen their entire life. When you learn to fight as a kid you always threw your hands up in a boxer type pose.

I don't really agree with this.
I've found that the average guy does know boxing, at least in Baltimore, Philly, and Texas; they learned from an uncle or they did it when they were a kid.
The knowledge of the average dude on the street is increasing because of tv.
Your average Affliction-wearing mook in the club will, at the very least, be able to pull off some rudimentary boxing and basic wrestling takedowns/tackles.

[jmd161]

I've said it before, CTS was just as much a victim of TCMA as anyone. He knew how to fight, what worked in a fight, and if you asked him he'd show you

Yet time was still spent on forms, and on things in forms that if you asked him he'd tell you would NEVER work... but like "fiddler on the roof" it went along with everyone singing "tradition! tradition!"

And remember, THAT WAS A TEACHER WHO COULD ACTUALLY FIGHT

so when you have also a TON of crappy teachers out there, CMA has ended up the way it is

But, again, if people think that fighting is something you "aspire" to after long training, you are missing the boat

That's the problem I don't understand WHY?

Why not be the one to break that tradition of crappy kung fu?


Someone has to do it!

Why does the tradition wheel keep rolling when it can be stopped by just a few breaking tradition. I've asked you this before Ross I don't have a problem with your teaching Sanda, but if you learned the good stuff from Chan Tai San why don't you teach Lama Pai without the crap or flash? There is flash and crap in Hak Fu Mun as well, but my sigung and sifu both chose to change the spread of that stuff. The Hak Fu Mun I'm learning is not the same Hak Fu Mun my sifu learned or even what my sigung learned. They both worked to make what they teach effective not just going with the flow.

Someone has to stand up and break this tradition cr@p!

jeff:)

[lkfmdc]

That's the problem I don't understand WHY?

Why not be the one to break that tradition of crappy kung fu?


Someone has to do it!

Why does the tradition wheel keep rolling when it can be stopped by just a few breaking tradition. I've asked you this before Ross I don't have a problem with your teaching Sanda, but if you learned the good stuff from Chan Tai San why don't you teach Lama Pai without the crap or flash?



ah, but you see, I could tell you that in fact that is what I am doing, but so many think that "kung fu" has to have silk PJ's and look like a shaw bros movie

they also think if you absorb stuff that isn't CMA then you are just a "glorified knucklehead" :rolleyes:

I got tired of all the BS and fraud in the TCMA community... I grew tired of the forms fairies, and the mouth boxers, and the gossip like old wash women..

I also got tired of calling what I do "kung fu" because it brings the crazies and the bums out of the wood work. The clowns in full uniforms walking down the street, the guys who want to be "shaolin monks", the guys who want to learn "death touch" and the people who think if they learn a "secret" they don't have to sweat

[jmd161]

I don't really agree with this.
I've found that the average guy does know boxing, at least in Baltimore, Philly, and Texas; they learned from an uncle or they did it when they were a kid.
The knowledge of the average dude on the street is increasing because of tv.
Your average Affliction-wearing mook in the club will, at the very least, be able to pull off some rudimentary boxing and basic wrestling takedowns/tackles.

I'm sure times have changed since I was small, but I'm sure even the person with no boxing training at all will throw up their hands in a boxers pose. In cities like what you named where boxing is truly part of the scene, i'm sure the numbers are going to be higher, that's expected. What I was trying to point out is even people without any training will take this pose as their base. It's what you see growing up in the west although martial arts are all over the place.



ah, but you see, I could tell you that in fact that is what I am doing, but so many think that "kung fu" has to have silk PJ's and look like a shaw bros movie

they also think if you absorb stuff that isn't CMA then you are just a "glorified knucklehead"

I got tired of all the BS and fraud in the TCMA community... I grew tired of the forms fairies, and the mouth boxers, and the gossip like old wash women..

I also got tired of calling what I do "kung fu" because it brings the crazies and the bums out of the wood work. The clowns in full uniforms walking down the street, the guys who want to be "shaolin monks", the guys who want to learn "death touch" and the people who think if they learn a "secret" they don't have to sweat

Yeah!

I see your point...

I myself get so fed up of that crap, so I can imagine someone in a city like NY that has such a large China Town community and everything.

jeff:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"That's the problem I don't understand WHY?

Why not be the one to break that tradition of crappy kung fu?

Someone has to do it!" (jmd161)

......................................

***AND SOMEONE DID. His name was Bruce Lee.

[lkfmdc]

When we called it a "kung fu school" we spent half our time trying to convince those who were serious and wanted to learn to fight that they COULD train with us

The other half of the time was spent shooing away the crazies who wanted to learn "death touch" or "secret internal" or some advanced random set like needle in cotton (with no basics yet!) :rolleyes:

Then of course there were the random visits from the Chinatown federation we didn't actually belong to, telling us we either couldn't advertise our business or we were REQUIRED to show up to some crappy event they were holding or to show up to a meeting where Wai HOng was clipping his toe nails :rolleyes:

[Pork Chop]

***AND SOMEONE DID. His name was Bruce Lee.

starts gathering up all the sharp objects to keep them out of reach of lkfmdc

[lkfmdc]

"That's the problem I don't understand WHY?

Why not be the one to break that tradition of crappy kung fu?

Someone has to do it!" (jmd161)

......................................

***AND SOMEONE DID. His name was Bruce Lee.

oh dear lord :rolleyes:

[jmd161]

When we called it a "kung fu school" we spent half our time trying to convince those who were serious and wanted to learn to fight that they COULD train with us

The other half of the time was spent shooing away the crazies who wanted to learn "death touch" or "secret internal" or some advanced random set like needle in cotton (with no basics yet!) :rolleyes:

Then of course there were the random visits from the Chinatown federation we didn't actually belong to, telling us we either couldn't advertise our business or we were REQUIRED to show up to some crappy event they were holding or to show up to a meeting where Wai HOng was clipping his toe nails :rolleyes:

Yeah my sifu speaks of this all the time. He went through it in Hong Kong as well as here when he arrived in NYC back in the 70's. He gets offers now of $5,000.00 to learn one of our advanced sets without the basics as well. I spoke with you in the CTS thread where you said you remember someone shooting up my sifu's car in China Town. That's part of his refusing to follow the tradition wheel, he was not going to show up and be part of the crowd. All his life he has broken tradition even as a child learning Hak Fu Mun when there were masters of Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut in his own family (His Grandfather and Uncle).

We Just need more people to buck the trend!


jeff:)

[lkfmdc]

From my experience, the best people LEAVE the mo lam. They get tired of the stupid and the silly and the fraud and the gossip and the outrageiousness. They just give up and go do their own thing

OR they give up and just "go with the flow" and end up perpetuating the same crap

I'm happy where I am

[Lucas]

and im still going to call you a traditional kungfu man

:p

[David Jamieson]

There is a lot of crazy in the martial societies associated with kungfu in particular.

and plenty of no talent skill-less bums who can't fight, and loads and loads of wushu prancers.

not enough fighters anymore, too many face games, lots of gossipy nonsense, brinkmanship that goes nowhere, chest pounding, etc etc etc.

I'm glad to no longer have anything to do with any of that stuff.

But I still enjoy kungfu practice! it just tastes better with the turds removed. :D

[jmd161]

From my experience, the best people LEAVE the mo lam. They get tired of the stupid and the silly and the fraud and the gossip and the outrageiousness. They just give up and go do their own thing

OR they give up and just "go with the flow" and end up perpetuating the same crap

I'm happy where I am



and im still going to call you a traditional kungfu man
:p




It's funny just last week my sifu said something and I instantly thought of Ross!


My sifu said back when he was in Hong Kong you had two kinds of kung fu training... The people who did forms and the San Da people. The San Da people where the fighters or are the ones known as the real deal!

That surprised me a lot, but really that's the way my sifu has taught us from day one. We learn doing a lot of drills and apps not so much forms work has ever been part of our training. We have guys with us over 4 yrs that haven't even started our first form yet.:eek:

How many schools could survive doing that?:confused:


jeff:)

[lkfmdc]

There is a lot of crazy in the martial societies associated with kungfu in particular.

and plenty of no talent skill-less bums who can't fight, and loads and loads of wushu prancers.

not enough fighters anymore, too many face games, lots of gossipy nonsense, brinkmanship that goes nowhere, chest pounding, etc etc etc.

I'm glad to no longer have anything to do with any of that stuff.

But I still enjoy kungfu practice! it just tastes better with the turds removed. :D

as individuals, you can move on... but don't be fooled into thinking that the BS and fraud associated with TCMA hasn't hurt the arts

but one example, in the US San Shou has been completely destroyed by a clear manifestation of this sort of crap

we could also harken back to the 1995 World Wushu fiasco in Baltimore, where someone basicly said "I'm a Chinese master, I am going to ignore all of you because I must be right" :rolleyes:

did I mention the Shaolin circus and pony show yet? :D

how about the fact that while Korean and Japanese martial arts have MANY strong, successful organizations, TCMA in the US has???? anyone???? :confused:

the closest thing we had to a great moment in CMA was Jeff Bolt's events... and we know what happened to them don't we? :mad:

[lkfmdc]

My sifu said back when he was in Hong Kong you had two kinds of kung fu training... The people who did forms and the San Da people. The San Da people where the fighters or are the ones known as the real deal!



yeah! yeah! but what does your sifu really know ;):D

(that's what some on here will no doubt really think btw!)

[David Jamieson]

*snipply sniplington*

the closest thing we had to a great moment in CMA was Jeff Bolt's events... and we know what happened to them don't we? :mad:

No, what happened to them? They still have their federation don't they?
as in: http://www.uskungfu.com/federation_officers.htm

they don't organize events anymore?

[lkfmdc]

No, what happened to them? They still have their federation don't they?
as in: http://www.uskungfu.com/federation_officers.htm

they don't organize events anymore?

that is NOT the organization that I knew that ran Jeff Bolt's events in Houston and then Florida

I don't even see Jeff's name in that list?? :confused:

And in case I've lost touch with the politics and Jeff IS involved in that group, oh the irony, half the people on that list tried to run Jeff Bolt out of business in the "old days"

[David Jamieson]

that is NOT the organization that I knew that ran Jeff Bolt's events in Houston and then Florida

I don't even see Jeff's name in that list?? :confused:

And in case I've lost touch with the politics and Jeff IS involved in that group, oh the irony, half the people on that list tried to run Jeff Bolt out of business in the "old days"

He's a founding member. That list is just the sub-officers of the federation.
they got a thing going on in Dallas in a week or two I think, legends of kungfu or something like that.

anyway, what's the story there? bunch of crap politics?

also, as an aside, it was always my observation that when it came to kungfu politics, it often reflected chinese politics.

It was always KMT schools dissing the contemp wushu schools and vice versa.

to be fair, the kmt schools always had better kungfu. lol

[lkfmdc]

He's a founding member. That list is just the sub-officers of the federation.
they got a thing going on in Dallas in a week or two I think, legends of kungfu or something like that.

anyway, what's the story there? bunch of crap politics?

Oh well, Gene will kill me, but......

Back when there was "NACMAF" and Tai Yim and Anthony Goh were still speaking to eachother (as opposed to wanting to kill eachother), their event was in Baltimore

Jeff Bolt's event was first in Texas, then moved to Florida

I don't know how Jeff felt, but knowing Jeff, he probably didn't care, but I know that NACMAF viewed Jeff Bolt as a competitor and wanted to "beat him". Every f-in meeting had some negative comments about Jeff.

There was also an ongoing effort to "win over" respected Sifu. Brendan Lau called up my sifu (CTS) and even though CTS had a close relatoinship with Tai Yim, asked him to come to Florida and Jeff's event

My sifu loved to demonstrate, and who doesn't want a free hotel room :D

Later on, NACMAF got into a major league ****ing match with Wai HOn'g "East Coast Kung Fu Federation" (which Tai Yim had belonged to, and according to Wai Hong still belonged to and thus was "disobediant")

In the ensuing "my gwan do is bigger than your gwan do" BS, Tai Yim and Anthony Goh decided to partner with Jeff Bolt to form the USA WKF

Then, because Anthony Goh wanted to show Wai HOng that his gwan do was REALLY BIG, ANthony Goh committed a brand new organization with no money to doing the world WUSHU championships .... did I mention that he did this DESPITE the entire organiation objecting? Did I mention that most of the base of this new organization was TRADITIONAL GUYS and this was a WUSHU event?

Did I mention that Goh snubbed all the traditional people by having the yearly national everone loved on a WEDNESDAY and a THURSDAY so he could do the WUSHU CHAMPIONSHIP?

So, once everyone hated Goh's nuts Tai Yim made up with Wai HOng and they formed the organization you just linked.... how Jeff Bolt got into that mess I am not sure

And the sad part is, I am only really brushing the very shallow surface of all that BS history of the past

[Lucas]

now i dont know if anyone else has experienced this or not....but...


sometimes when i meet other martial artists, i sometimes feel almost embarassed to say im a kungfu guy. simply because i know the majority of people have this pre concieved notion of what cma is, which is always based on the fluff wushu movie crap. thus most people automatically assume you dont know jack all about actual fighting. which for some of us just isnt the case. some of us have a view and a goal we work towards thats fully grounded in reality.

sometimes you do meet the guys who 'get it' and understand its all about your training goals and what you do to reach those goals. though on average, the bad face of cma is all people know about it, even well trained martial artists have these scewed pre concieved notions....which i understand, truly, because i can see how this type of thinking comes about.

of course a nice technical discussion or a little sparring can pretty quickly show people what page you like to read....but still...

anyone else ever experience that...

its annoying being dismissed outright because you say the word....:eek: chinese :eek:

[jmd161]

now i dont know if anyone else has experienced this or not....but...


sometimes when i meet other martial artists, i sometimes feel almost embarassed to say im a kungfu guy. simply because i know the majority of people have this pre concieved notion of what cma is, which is always based on the fluff wushu movie crap. thus most people automatically assume you dont know jack all about actual fighting. which for some of us just isnt the case. some of us have a view and a goal we work towards thats fully grounded in reality.

sometimes you do meet the guys who 'get it' and understand its all about your training goals and what you do to reach those goals. though on average, the bad face of cma is all people know about it, even well trained martial artists have these scewed pre concieved notions....which i understand, truly, because i can see how this type of thinking comes about.

of course a nice technical discussion or a little sparring can pretty quickly show people what page you like to read....but still...

anyone else ever experience that...

its annoying being dismissed outright because you say the word....:eek: chinese :eek:


I know exactly what you mean!

It's only because of my size 6'2" 300plus that people don't give me crap. They are already intimidated by my size, so they dare not say anything out of place. I've had a few though that wanted to test me thinking I'm some big slow inexperienced CMA sifu worshiper.

That is the last thing they think afterwards...:D

Of course, then you get that's not kung fu what you did to me!:rolleyes:


jeff:)

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. I actually like telling people that I'm a Kung Fu/ Tai Chi practitioner. Especially if they've done any boxing or kickboxing. Sometimes they ask if I wanna spar and are surprised when I say "Sure". Then we spar... and that's ALOT of fun... :D

[Violent Designs]

theres a shaolin saying yi li shen shi zhao
strength beats 10 techniques

many kung fu forms look complicated but its just punch kick grab varation
it looks complicated maybe because its done flowerly

一力胜十招 。

[grasshopper 2.0]

I have to say I've experienced this myself. The guy was a MT guy and once u say "kung fu" its like a smirk appears on their face OR they want me to ask them "so what do u do?"

Its rather annoying but at the same time, since they underestimate, they are even more shocked at the outcome.

On a side note - this has also renewed "my faith" in chinese boxing. There was a point where I realized that MMA, MT, etc isn't the be all and end all (don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for those that train in their art, it's just that some are extremely ****y and feel they can wipe any kung fu guy no problem...especially with casual training..and then they realize its not so easy)

Heh, heh. I actually like telling people that I'm a Kung Fu/ Tai Chi practitioner. Especially if they've done any boxing or kickboxing. Sometimes they ask if I wanna spar and are surprised when I say "Sure". Then we spar... and that's ALOT of fun... :D

[David Jamieson]

Heh, heh. I actually like telling people that I'm a Kung Fu/ Tai Chi practitioner. Especially if they've done any boxing or kickboxing. Sometimes they ask if I wanna spar and are surprised when I say "Sure". Then we spar... and that's ALOT of fun... :D

I usually go with "I'm a yoga practitioner who is becoming a vegan and I support gay marriage vehemently".

Pretty much anybody will leave you alone after that. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do tend to get a chuckle out of people that say boxing is easy and such.
Simple does not = easy.
Boxing is, by far, the best method to teach anyone how to use their hands how to strike.
Why do I say best?
Because it is a method that is quick, effective, simple and anyone can be taught to make it effective in a short period of time.
It still doesn't make it easy.
You can sit down with a good boxing coach and discuss boxing strategies and such for hours, the different body methods, different modes of power generation, foot work, evasion tactics, blocking and so forth.
Don't even get me started on how Muay Thai.

[naja]

I do tend to get a chuckle out of people that say boxing is easy and such.
Simple does not = easy.
Boxing is, by far, the best method to teach anyone how to use their hands how to strike.

The college that hosts the judo club I go to also hosts a boxing club on the following days (and both are free - yay!). I keep meaning to give it a go, but something always comes up. I would love to combine boxing and judo.

[David Jamieson]

The college that hosts the judo club I go to also hosts a boxing club on the following days (and both are free - yay!). I keep meaning to give it a go, but something always comes up. I would love to combine boxing and judo.

You can't love it that much if you always let something else come up to push it away.

show some brass man! lol :p

[Lucas]

boxing + judo

man i wish there was some judo near me i could get to on my schedule.

i did talk to a guy that trains at straight blast gym, who conveniently just moved in to a location between my work and home.

once i re arrange my finances im going to go sign up. the way it was explained to me is for 125 a month you get unlimited access to any material thats being taught. im going to go for the boxing for sure, and possibly get into the bjj, and hopefully find a judo contact through them.

[David Jamieson]

boxing + judo

man i wish there was some judo near me i could get to on my schedule.

i did talk to a guy that trains at straight blast gym, who conveniently just moved in to a location between my work and home.

once i re arrange my finances im going to go sign up. the way it was explained to me is for 125 a month you get unlimited access to any material thats being taught. im going to go for the boxing for sure, and possibly get into the bjj, and hopefully find a judo contact through them.

SBG has some of the best instructional vids available out there bar none.
If they have good instructors in your local, I would go! I admire their way of approaching and training martial arts.

[andyhaas]

Yeah, judo = fun.

[Violent Designs]

Bawang is cool:D

He's a brother from the east.

[Lucas]

SBG has some of the best instructional vids available out there bar none.
If they have good instructors in your local, I would go! I admire their way of approaching and training martial arts.

ya, i had thought they closed because one day their old location was just gone, then i realized they actually moved to a space i can make it to on my schedule, hella cool.

the guy i talked to said they have a bjj bb. so thats tight. im really interested in the boxing though

[TenTigers]

I tell'em I do Kung-Fu, and then I tell'em I'm 52. They don't smirk.
I'm not a granola munching tree hugger looking to form my men's drum circle, and they know it. I'm also not trying to prove anything, so their little ego-minds aren;t threatened. Works for me.

[David Jamieson]

I tell'em I do Kung-Fu, and then I tell'em I'm 52. They don't smirk.
I'm not a granola munching tree hugger looking to form my men's drum circle, and they know it. I'm also not trying to prove anything, so their little ego-minds aren;t threatened. Works for me.

so...no drum circle this weekend then?


:p

[Hitman]

Dear Sifu lkfmdc ,

Originally Posted by lkfmdc

"But, aside from that, are you saying that in the ENTIRE WORLD there is no one who has trained correctly or long enough to show us the "real stuff" in a REAL FIGHT?

That's the heart of the issue for all of those who think a fight should look "like kung fu".... Every conceivable clip or example with a real resisting person you claim looks like "kickboxing" but you can't put up a SINGLE CLIP of someone figting "like kung fu"

** unless of course you put up STAGED, ie FAKE, pseudo fights from a Chinese TV show"

I do not know what your problem is; however, you are twisting my words and putting words into my mouth for no reason at all, when I was only replying to Andy’s question.
Instead of us getting into a pointless argument that gets us no where as to the reasons why you did it. How about you showing us a video clip of yourself fighting with a resisting opponent on the street or anyone of the NHB around the world you have entered as a competitor? This will allow us to appreciate what real kung fu should look like and stop all the unnecessary talk regarding to this topic once for all.

At the mean time here is something for you to think about. Please refer to the threads I have found relating to why people can not use in kung fu in a fight?

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=591

http://www.shaolin-wahnam.org/kungfuq1.html

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=57
Iron Fist Master Pan's Champions
by Dianne Naughton
“"When I teach, I demonstrate each movement many times so the students can imitate me. First I show them; then I tell them the meanings: why you do this, why you do that. Everyone changes very fast when they know the meanings. If you can't teach self-defense and you don't know the meanings of the movements, then don't teach martial arts," Master Pan states.
"When a student did a movement very well, I stopped the class and everyone watched. When students watch each other they become more confident. They must always watch each other for two reasons: to learn and to protect themselves from flying weapons.
"I knew that sometimes the students were sleepy, sore, hungry or scared but if they listened to me, everything would be better for them," explains Master Pan. "I reminded them, 'If you are scared, you must practice more. After, you will be free. You will control the dangerous movements instead of the danger always controlling you."
"A teacher must keep the students interested and determined. Ten hours in the gym and I never sat down. Some teachers read the paper - not me. I made class interesting. Every class they learned new techniques and improved the old ones. They improved quickly so their motivation increased."
His reason for leaving China is quite simple: "I want to make martial arts better." Travelling to other countries as the senior coach of several Chinese national martial arts delegations, he knew everyone likes Chinese martial arts. Frustrated, Master Pan states that "there aren't enough good teachers to teach. You must have the right direction; if you don't, you can practice for many years, waste a lot of time and never learn real martial arts." He sees many students who have the potential to fly, but they lack the opportunity.

“This is the key to real Chinese martial arts. After a certain number of years, most sports-oriented individuals must slow down or accept a lower standard of achievement. Some training must be stopped due to health problems. "Real martial arts are different," says Master Pan. "As you get older, your body gets younger." Now in his fortieth year of practice, his speed and power continue to increase, and his body becomes even more flexible with age. “ “

A) Sifu Duncan Leung’s reply to the question why wing chun people cannot use wing chun in a fight.

“The situation you are describing is the difference between academic theory and practical application. The only way to learn application is to use it in real-life situations repeatedly and under varying conditions (i.e., when you do not know what your opponent is going to throw at you) until reactions become automatic, and you instinctively know how to adapt to different opponents and strategies. In the old days, we actually fought -- in the streets, with rival martial arts studios. That is, today, not practical. But, the principle can be adapted.

I can expalin to you how to ride a bicycle -- turn the handlebars left, turn them right, etc. But, until you climb on the bike and fall down a few times, and get the 'feel' of it for yourself, you do not know how to ride a bike.

Let me reiterate the four fundamental elements that are necessary to the successful learning of Wing Chun, as specified by my Sifu, Yip Man:

1. Desire: an intense desire to acquire the art.

2. Guts and stamina: the willingness and ability to take the pain and punishment that accompany the learning process.

3. Time: I practiced 6 hours a day, 7 days a week for over four years to learn applied Wing Chun.

4. Money: most teachers need to make a living.

Interestingly, innate talent is not really essential, but the above characteristics are. Without these, it is impossible to become really good. And, in today's world, very few students possess these four qualities.”


B) According to Sifu Lai Hung and Sifu Brian Kingborg in their book “The Secrets of Northern Shaolin Kung fu”.
A form excused with speed and force is an accurate imitation of actual fighting. The untrained people often doubted whether the forms can be use in fight, because they cannot imagine how to use those elaborate techniques in combat. However, high level martial artists can and do fight in this way. Unfortunately, there are few with the talent and determination to achieve such a level”


C) A part of the interview with sifu Chan Wai Man by a martial arts magazine.
“I had the same attitude as Bruce Lee. In the old days, you could lean traditional kung fu, and you had to train many years before you could fight well. With boxing or kick boxing you could train hard for only one year, and already be effective. I had worked as a bodyguard before, and you couldn’t use kung fu to fight. It wasn’t like kung fu challenge match! When you fought, it was like what we call a “dar-gow”, a dog fight. Anything goes! For this reason, I stopped learning kung fu and shifted to the boxing style. Bruce Lee was the same. He started focusing on western style conditioning, like running, skipping, weights, and bag work.”

D) Sifu Leung Ching Gon stated in his book “The iron palm” – that many Chinese kung fu teachers did not like to teach non Chinese people. If they were to teach non Chinese people, they would not show them the real stuff. They would also charged a lot of money and teach a lot of worthless techniques to people.
There were many conmen teaching B.S Chinese kung fu in Japan.

E) Nick Evangelista stated in his book “The art and science of fencing” that the classical fencing method has virtually been abandoned by western fencers due to the fast food culture.

F) According to Grandmaster Leung Ting in his book “Roots of Wing Chun” – he has the largest kung fu school in the world and has branches in 60 countries, including Thailand. Many people in his organisation are highly skilled black belts martial instructors in different field. His organisation also teaches members of the Special Forces, ordinary police officers, prison guards, security guards and undercover policemen around the world. The members of the world elite security forces can testify the effective of wing Chun (Chinese martial arts). Those people are not fools or laymen, who can be easily convinced or taken in by propaganda. Even Frank Bruno, the former world heavy weight champion of boxing, when to the international head quarter of the IWTA and learnt some wing tsun techniques with Sifu Cheng Cheus Fun.
He also stated in his other books that many dedicated martial artists who trained for many years were unable to use their kung fu in fights. This was because they had not been taught properly. Even wing chun students could not perform chain punches in fights.

Do you honestly believed that the world’s elite security forces, western boxers and professional Thai boxers (from Thailand) would waste their time and money learning Wing Tsun (CMA), if they only ended up fighting like kick boxers/ boxers? When those people are already experts in boxing and kick boxing before they even learned wing Tsun.

[Hitman]

G) A part of the interview of the late Sifu Chan Hon-Chung in Hong Kong.
“In my time the pupils were more obedient to the teacher than to their parents, and this made teaching much easier. For example, the teacher could tell his pupils to practise solidly for hours without any compliant from them. That has changed recently. We are no longer called teachers, but coaches. There is no longer respect on the pupil’s side towards the teacher because people think since fees have been paid, we are obliged to provide that much money’s worth of teaching. This attitude makes it impossible for the teacher to teach the pupils the essence of the art. That is why among the several thousands of pupils I have, not even ten of them are good enough to be instructors. Hung kuen is very difficult to learn and no one can teach others if he or she is not an expert. It takes at least eight years for me to teach the students properly, whereas people will learn for only two or three years before they leave.
On the other hand I am ashamed of myself in that foreign instructors of martial arts, such as the Japanese and Koreans, are really dedicated. They teach and supervise practice sessions solidly for several hours every day, whereas the Chinese instructors leave the pupil’s to practise by themselves. They may teach them new techniques, but only when they feel like it.”
Sifu Chan Hon-Chung practised each evening from 7pm to midnight and then rose at four the next morning to practise for first 6 months of Hung Kuen training. He then practised 5 hours every night.

[lkfmdc]

How about you showing us a video clip of yourself fighting with a resisting opponent on the street or anyone of the NHB around the world you have entered as a competitor?



clearly, you are joking? Have you missed all the clips of my students fighting somehow? :rolleyes:




Iron Fist Master Pan's Champions



Please enlighen us what FULL CONTACT fighters Shihfu Pan has produced? Where and when have they fought? :rolleyes:




A) Sifu Duncan Leung’s reply to the question why wing chun people cannot use wing chun in a fight.

“The situation you are describing is the difference between academic theory and practical application.



I think maybe you should consider some of what you are posting as "rebuttal" :rolleyes:





Do you honestly believed that the world’s elite security forces, western boxers and professional Thai boxers (from Thailand) would waste their time and money learning Wing Tsun (CMA)



the obvious answer is NO! and that's why you don't see trained fighters flocking to him despite his PR releases... I hear he smacks up women pretty well though! :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

G) A part of the interview of the late Sifu Chan Hon-Chung in Hong Kong.

“In my time the pupils were more obedient to the teacher than to their parents, and this made teaching much easier.



ah, yes, BRILLIANT! The students didn't learn to fight so it is THEIR FAULT....

I'm guessing this is a troll, because if your mind is really this convoluted, I feel really sorry for you

[David Jamieson]

by Dianne Naughton
“"When I teach, I demonstrate each movement many times so the students can imitate me. First I show them; then I tell them the meanings: why you do this, why you do that. Everyone changes very fast when they know the meanings. If you can't teach self-defense and you don't know the meanings of the movements, then don't teach martial arts," Master Pan states.

"When a student did a movement very well, I stopped the class and everyone watched. When students watch each other they become more confident. They must always watch each other for two reasons: to learn and to protect themselves from flying weapons.
"I knew that sometimes the students were sleepy, sore, hungry or scared but if they listened to me, everything would be better for them," explains Master Pan. "I reminded them, 'If you are scared, you must practice more. After, you will be free. You will control the dangerous movements instead of the danger always controlling you."
"A teacher must keep the students interested and determined. Ten hours in the gym and I never sat down. Some teachers read the paper - not me. I made class interesting. Every class they learned new techniques and improved the old ones. They improved quickly so their motivation increased."
His reason for leaving China is quite simple: "I want to make martial arts better." Travelling to other countries as the senior coach of several Chinese national martial arts delegations, he knew everyone likes Chinese martial arts. Frustrated, Master Pan states that "there aren't enough good teachers to teach. You must have the right direction; if you don't, you can practice for many years, waste a lot of time and never learn real martial arts." He sees many students who have the potential to fly, but they lack the opportunity.

“This is the key to real Chinese martial arts. After a certain number of years, most sports-oriented individuals must slow down or accept a lower standard of achievement. Some training must be stopped due to health problems. "Real martial arts are different," says Master Pan. "As you get older, your body gets younger." Now in his fortieth year of practice, his speed and power continue to increase, and his body becomes even more flexible with age. “

Neither PQF or DN have fielded a fighter.




A) Sifu Duncan Leung’s reply to the question why wing chun people cannot use wing chun in a fight.

“The situation you are describing is the difference between academic theory and practical application. The only way to learn application is to use it in real-life situations repeatedly and under varying conditions (i.e., when you do not know what your opponent is going to throw at you) until reactions become automatic, and you instinctively know how to adapt to different opponents and strategies. In the old days, we actually fought -- in the streets, with rival martial arts studios. That is, today, not practical. But, the principle can be adapted.

I can expalin to you how to ride a bicycle -- turn the handlebars left, turn them right, etc. But, until you climb on the bike and fall down a few times, and get the 'feel' of it for yourself, you do not know how to ride a bike.

Let me reiterate the four fundamental elements that are necessary to the successful learning of Wing Chun, as specified by my Sifu, Yip Man:

1. Desire: an intense desire to acquire the art.

2. Guts and stamina: the willingness and ability to take the pain and punishment that accompany the learning process.

3. Time: I practiced 6 hours a day, 7 days a week for over four years to learn applied Wing Chun.

4. Money: most teachers need to make a living.

Interestingly, innate talent is not really essential, but the above characteristics are. Without these, it is impossible to become really good. And, in today's world, very few students possess these four qualities.”

This is a heaping helping of horse pucks with a grain of truth, IE point 4



B) According to Sifu Lai Hung and Sifu Brian Kingborg in their book “The Secrets of Northern Shaolin Kung fu”.
A form excused with speed and force is an accurate imitation of actual fighting. The untrained people often doubted whether the forms can be use in fight, because they cannot imagine how to use those elaborate techniques in combat. However, high level martial artists can and do fight in this way. Unfortunately, there are few with the talent and determination to achieve such a level”

a form is not an accurate imitation of anything. It's a pattern that has nothing to do with an actual fight. Lai Hung had some cred by all accounts, but this statement is wrong from a level of objective realism and it can be demonstrated that it is wrong, or shall we go throwugh hundreds or thousands of people until we can prove this correct? So far, hundreds and thousands have been gone through and it has been aptly demonstrated that this point is wrong.



C) A part of the interview with sifu Chan Wai Man by a martial arts magazine.
“I had the same attitude as Bruce Lee. In the old days, you could lean traditional kung fu, and you had to train many years before you could fight well. With boxing or kick boxing you could train hard for only one year, and already be effective. I had worked as a bodyguard before, and you couldn’t use kung fu to fight. It wasn’t like kung fu challenge match! When you fought, it was like what we call a “dar-gow”, a dog fight. Anything goes! For this reason, I stopped learning kung fu and shifted to the boxing style. Bruce Lee was the same. He started focusing on western style conditioning, like running, skipping, weights, and bag work.”

Bruce Lee never finished his formal training in WC, which is a system that was designed to be learned and applied adeptly in less than 2 years. What he may have seen was that in the west people applied h2h differently than where he was from where it was applied more like a fencing match. NO ground and pound in rooftop tussles :)



D) Sifu Leung Ching Gon stated in his book “The iron palm” – that many Chinese kung fu teachers did not like to teach non Chinese people. If they were to teach non Chinese people, they would not show them the real stuff. They would also charged a lot of money and teach a lot of worthless techniques to people.
There were many conmen teaching B.S Chinese kung fu in Japan.

Hearsay, but it defines the value of kungfu lessons in Japan lol



E) Nick Evangelista stated in his book “The art and science of fencing” that the classical fencing method has virtually been abandoned by western fencers due to the fast food culture. He is wrong. But if he is speaking in context to how fencing is trained for the olympics, which is the only place it has any relevancy whatsoever, then he's right.




F) According to Grandmaster Leung Ting in his book “Roots of Wing Chun” – he has the largest kung fu school in the world and has branches in 60 countries, including Thailand. Many people in his organisation are highly skilled black belts martial instructors in different field. His organisation also teaches members of the Special Forces, ordinary police officers, prison guards, security guards and undercover policemen around the world. The members of the world elite security forces can testify the effective of wing Chun (Chinese martial arts). Those people are not fools or laymen, who can be easily convinced or taken in by propaganda. Even Frank Bruno, the former world heavy weight champion of boxing, when to the international head quarter of the IWTA and learnt some wing tsun techniques with Sifu Cheng Cheus Fun.
He also stated in his other books that many dedicated martial artists who trained for many years were unable to use their kung fu in fights. This was because they had not been taught properly. Even wing chun students could not perform chain punches in fights.

Do you honestly believed that the world’s elite security forces, western boxers and professional Thai boxers (from Thailand) would waste their time and money learning Wing Tsun (CMA), if they only ended up fighting like kick boxers/ boxers? When those people are already experts in boxing and kick boxing before they even learned wing Tsun.

the worlds elite security train wing chun? really? I wouldn't concur with that at all.
Maybe one or two hack body guards or washed up article writers for bb mag bother with it for that, :D ... but if you want serious elite bg or sec training, you are definitely not going to stick with one system.


I have no idea why people take so much offense with mma type training systems. These systems of training seek the path of least resistence in getting the fighter in top shape with all the attributes required developed up the yin yang.

many styles of kungfu have you sitting there listening to some guy blather on with cryptic nonsense for an hour and then you play patty cake with the skinny nerd who hasn't lifted a weight in his life.

if you train with a correct mindset and train in a place with a correct mindset, people who get offended by various training methods from other schools of thought are weeded out quickly.

all training has value and the latest ideas and methods are really quite good and superior in many ways to old ways of doing things.

Why do I say this? Take a moment to go and have a punch up with an mma player. I did. It's self explanatory and will change your kungfu training and your approach to it forever.

so long as you stay in the womb of a kungfu school loyal to a given pai and the ancient ways is so long as you will stay ignorant to the objective reality of what fighting is.

People that go to Kungfu schools should come with the pre-req of already knowing how to fight, then they wouldn't live in such fantasy worlds about what fighting is or isn't.

just sayin and long live good kungfu!

[Lucas]

I have no idea why people take so much offense with mma type training systems.

theyve trapped themselves in their own minds and refuse to open the door. its quite obvious to me that good mma training is as much gongfu as good wushu training.

its so freaking obvious it hurts!

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA is simply what kung fu USED to be when it was trained as a fighting system.

[Lucas]

hate to dredge this back up but its all that 'classical trappings' we've all heard tell of...

trappings that were developed through traditions that continued to move further and further away from the truth.

its likened to myth. in every myth there is usually some form of truth or actual historical revelance. correlated to a lot of tcma.

[Yum Cha]

MMA is simply what kung fu USED to be when it was trained as a fighting system.


Back in ancient times, didn't Greco-Roman wrestling include striking? I seem to remember seeing some old pots with paintings of wrestlers with raised fists...

just a passing thought...

[Lucas]

pankration?

[lkfmdc]

Back in ancient times, didn't Greco-Roman wrestling include striking? I seem to remember seeing some old pots with paintings of wrestlers with raised fists...

just a passing thought...

3 ancient Greek combat sports

1. boxing

2. wrestling: but with submissions including chokes

3. Pankration: striking, kicking and wrestling with submissions

[Eric Olson]

MMA is simply what kung fu USED to be when it was trained as a fighting system.

Except I don't think that the old kung fu guys wanted to take it to the ground. That was filthy and for the "dogs." Go figure the one ground fighting style we all know is called "dog boxing."


....but that was a cultural oversight, all is fair in love and war as they say.

EO

[Lokhopkuen]

MMA is simply what kung fu USED to be when it was trained as a fighting system.

Kung Fu is no longer a fighting system? Wow we've been left out of the loop 'cause we still use it to fight:rolleyes: I better inform my teacher, associate branches and the HK associations! LMFAO:D

[David Jamieson]

Kung Fu is no longer a fighting system? Wow we've been left out of the loop 'cause we still use it to fight:rolleyes: I better inform my teacher, associate branches and the HK associations! LMFAO:D

There aren't many venues for it, it is not actuvely promoted in fighting venues and you don't see kungfu artists winning in any of the other major venues that are available to strut ones stuff so to speak when it comes to martial arts.

IN asia, you get the ridiculous padded contests that aren't on par with western h2h combat in a ring setting.

You are only now starting to see san shou coming out in china as a strong lead in chinese martial arts and frankly, they're not really chinese and those guys do not use traditional forms to train with or most traditional methods.

wu shu players are all about forms and they don't actually fight with them. It's a national sport in china to remove teeth from tigers it seems.

Sadly, we here in the west have a tendency to adopt that, but we always hide the fact that the tiger is toothless.

This can all be redeemed, especially by us. Those of us who are in the here and now have to think about ways of updating and moving the material forward. We can have contests, we can leave out the unusual stuff for those contests and continue to use trad methods, but the fight has been taken out of it, that much is clear and it needs to be put back in.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kung Fu is no longer a fighting system? Wow we've been left out of the loop 'cause we still use it to fight:rolleyes: I better inform my teacher, associate branches and the HK associations! LMFAO:D

Really?
Kung fu is a generic name, while there are some very limited systems that train fighting, I am sure you agree that is not the majority.
Can the average kung fu person answer these simple questions:
Who do you fight?
Where do you fight?
When was your last fight?
Was it full contact ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Except I don't think that the old kung fu guys wanted to take it to the ground. That was filthy and for the "dogs." Go figure the one ground fighting style we all know is called "dog boxing."


....but that was a cultural oversight, all is fair in love and war as they say.

EO

Nobody wants to take it to the ground, no matter what you have heard, doesn't change the fact that it can end up there and to not address is silly at best and suicidal at worse.

[MasterKiller]

Well, this guy wanted to take it to the ground...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L2-4d8cHUQ&feature=player_embedded

[naja]

This might have something to do with it...

http://www.vybzmagazine.com/wp-content/gallery/nicole_cherie/Kickboxer_Nicole_Cherie_01.jpg

[David Jamieson]

This might have something to do with it...

http://www.vybzmagazine.com/wp-content/gallery/nicole_cherie/Kickboxer_Nicole_Cherie_01.jpg

hahaha, i guarantee you that chick is NOT a kickboxer.

a)she's too hot
b)no bruises, no facial marks
c)look at her nails for cripes sakes. lol

still, she's hot!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, this guy wanted to take it to the ground...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L2-4d8cHUQ&feature=player_embedded

We were talking about ground work in the ocntext of how original kung fu was taught ie: a fight with the chance of multilple attackers, I am sure that guy would have done just fine if one of the spectators decided to tee of on his face, of course if he was aware of that possibility he probably would not have been so eager to put himself on the ground and lose his ability to get the **** out of there.

[naja]

hahaha, i guarantee you that chick is NOT a kickboxer.


LOL...does it matter?!?!?

[lkfmdc]

This might have something to do with it...

http://www.vybzmagazine.com/wp-content/gallery/nicole_cherie/Kickboxer_Nicole_Cherie_01.jpg

I see you found a pic of our new kickboxing instructor!

[Lucas]

Well, this guy wanted to take it to the ground...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L2-4d8cHUQ&feature=player_embedded

i wonder how the lift and slam would have effected the outcome had they been on concrete and not grass.

[taai gihk yahn]

i wonder how the lift and slam would have effected the outcome had they been on concrete and not grass.

precisely! I was waiting for people to start griping about how the BJJ guy wouldn't have been able to do what he was doing if it had been concrete, just to point out that he was not the first man to meet the ground!

[Lucas]

what i want to see is street application of shuai jiao or judo

:eek:

[MasterKiller]

precisely! I was waiting for people to start griping about how the BJJ guy wouldn't have been able to do what he was doing if it had been concrete, just to point out that he was not the first man to meet the ground!

I think Lucas is talking about when the guy lifts and slams the BJJ dude during the armbar setup.

[Lucas]

well, generally, any slam or heavy takedown on concrete. some times it phases guys, but then sometimes it doesnt. i think a lot of it depends on how well they keep their skull from smacking asphalt.

[lkfmdc]

CAN a throw knock you out? YES

WILL a throw knock you out? It's a different question entirely

But here's the other end

What if YOU are the one being thrown?

Well, if you are KO'ed, you're done

But if you are not, then what?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think Lucas is talking about when the guy lifts and slams the BJJ dude during the armbar setup.

It happened during that episode of TUF where those two ****s got into a fight, one guy had the arm bar, the other picked him up and dropped him on his head, he let go of the arm bar.
Or was it a triangle??

[naja]

well, generally, any slam or heavy takedown on concrete. some times it phases guys, but then sometimes it doesnt. i think a lot of it depends on how well they keep their skull from smacking asphalt.

That will partly depend on the one performing the takedown. In class we make sure to help uke fall in such a way as to assist him in his breakfalls. You can turn it the other way as well, and make it harder for uke to fall properly, if one was so inclined....

example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX3XFA0haFQ

Here's an example of Harai Goshi (a throw similar to the one above) done "properly", with ukes best interests at heart:
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/haraigoshi.htm

[Lucas]

now im just imagining that head slam being done on concrete...ouch

[IronWeasel]

CAN a throw knock you out? YES

WILL a throw knock you out? It's a different question entirely

But here's the other end

What if YOU are the one being thrown?

Well, if you are KO'ed, you're done

But if you are not, then what?



...well, after three months of PT and anti inflammatories , you have spine surgery.:D

[jmd161]

now im just imagining that head slam being done on concrete...ouch


I actually saw a similar slam on concrete and the guy who was slammed actually won the fight. He won the fight after being slammed like that, but also after being run into a gavanized fence post and beaten for about 5 minutes prior. The guy was really taking a beaten and wouldn't fight back for the first 5 or 6 minutes. There was four of us talking when one guy who was talking with us attacked this guy out of no where, as he was walking by. The guy refused to fight back until I asked "why won't you defend yourself? " The guy responds " Because you guys will jump me" After we said we had nothing to do with it, he beat the cr@p out of that guy!:D LOL

I've never seen someone take such a beating and not only remain unfazed but actually win the fight.:eek:


jeff:)

[jmd161]

well, generally, any slam or heavy takedown on concrete. some times it phases guys, but then sometimes it doesnt. i think a lot of it depends on how well they keep their skull from smacking asphalt.


You know we covered this topic on another forum and it was interesting because in the hood/ urban areas you see a lot more slams in everyday fighting. The body slam is a technique everyone uses even those without any type of martial art/ sport training. The body slam is seen as a way to belittle your opponent as well as get them on the ground, so you can now stomp or kick them. It's not unlikely to see two guys fighting for position without throwing strikes, trying to be the first to get the slam.



jeff:)

[naja]

The body slam is a technique everyone uses even those without any type of martial art/ sport training.

I can agree with that, but when you start talking about ppl that do know what they're doing when they execute throws it becomes a different game.

I still remember the first time my judo sensei actually executed a throw on me with any real force. Our training mats are pretty thick ( DAX 4cm, I believe ) and it still almost knocked the wind out of me. He could have easily followed up with a stomp or kick before I even knew what was going on. Getting laid thrown on the ground in a street match is the next tolast thing that I want to happen to me. The last thing being the opponent pulling a blade...

[Lucas]

I actually saw a similar slam on concrete and the guy who was slammed actually won the fight. He won the fight after being slammed like that, but also after being run into a gavanized fence post and beaten for about 5 minutes prior. The guy was really taking a beaten and wouldn't fight back for the first 5 or 6 minutes. There was four of us talking when one guy who was talking with us attacked this guy out of no where, as he was walking by. The guy refused to fight back until I asked "why won't you defend yourself? " The guy responds " Because you guys will jump me" After we said we had nothing to do with it, he beat the cr@p out of that guy!:D LOL

I've never seen someone take such a beating and not only remain unfazed but actually win the fight.:eek:


jeff:)

Thats just freaking awesome!

[Eric Olson]

This might have something to do with it...

http://www.vybzmagazine.com/wp-content/gallery/nicole_cherie/Kickboxer_Nicole_Cherie_01.jpg

That's some brilliant photoshop work....:rolleyes:

[naja]

That's some brilliant photoshop work....:rolleyes:

Looks like they totally missed her left thumb........ yuck.

[golden arhat]

cant read more than the first few pages, this guy is hurtening my mind :confused::D

suffice to say andy knows F@CK ALL about martial arts or fighting.

[Pork Chop]

well there is a playboy model fighting for master toddy, she's been transitioning to mma lately and looks an awful lot like that chick.
i'll leave it to you guys to track down her pictures though.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just a matter of training philosophy.

Every warrior culture has had a one-on-one martial practice that was somehow linked to battle practices. The Greeks and Romans had wrestling, so did the Indians, so did the Asians, Native Americans---but CMA and asian MA have kept up the idea of forms. It's like the layman's martial art, since practice often does not involve direct conflict at full-strength--live training. Judo and Jujitsu are far more involved in live contact than CMA, with the exception of sanshou or shuai jiao. Calling samurai practices a warrior's art is not out of line, but that preceded human rights type, illegal abuse restrictions. Jujitsu is not a samurai art, nor is judo; they're probably part of what comprised that culture, but they're not MMA, and they're not the ancient fighting art--because the practitioners are not soldiers for hire, looking to kill, and they evolved later out of their practices, and flourished into competition arts. MMA is a modern concept. It's not gladiatorial combat--since it has rules. So, greco-roman wrestling, of course, is not a combat art. No kidding. An important training method for a complete MA in modern terms, but not MMA and not a warrior art.

Every modern martial art teaches elements of real combat. Nobody trains real combat except the army, navy, marines, terrorists, gangs---pick your choice. They're not the most popular guys on the block at times.

I figure most of the art, style-specific stuff was community-building, tribal bonding, etc. Even in warrior cultures, or in the army, losing your identity for a community identity is part of the warrior's art. The good thing about modern martial arts in the US, and why they flourish, is that they reinforce individual identity by getting rid of all the commercial BS we associate with "cultured personalities" and "self-esteem" and all that stuff. They're philosophical at root. MMA, sanshou, --ring fighting arts--are cutting the fat from fathead philosophies that proliferated over the centuries from teachers who were never asked to prove their claims about representing warrior cultures. We've found out much of what was passed on was done so out of respect for teachers and the stories they told. Many were empty, so the tradition of BS is being tested.

I like the fact they're taking us back to the basics of one-on-one combat.

Calling ancient kung fu MMA is kind of BS, especially when coupled with the idea that there's anything that approximates ancient combat in the modern world. MMA is not a warrior's art. But it's the modern layman warrior's art.

As for throwing, it's never like the drills you train. Neither is sweeping. Against full resistance, it turns into wrestling, and half of the throws, if you have basic white-belt jujitsu, can be countered by pulling guard and holding onto a dude's neck. So fighting doesn't get sloppier, it gets harder. Why?

I don't think people are so willing to be polite anymore and roll out of a throw or breakfall anymore, when you can counter a throw or takedown for your own protection and dominate on the ground.

Most olympic jujitsu/judo competition throws end with both guys on the ground. Why? It's hard to take them someone down cleanly when they don't want to be taken down.

I wouldn't let anyone throw me on concrete. I can counter most throws by pulling people down to groundfighting. It's pretty easy, really. Because most throwing arts aren't used to groundfighters who don't mind fighting on the ground.

[naja]

As for throwing, it's never like the drills you train. Neither is sweeping. Against full resistance, it turns into wrestling, and half of the throws, if you have basic white-belt jujitsu, can be countered by pulling guard and holding onto a dude's neck. So fighting doesn't get sloppier, it gets harder. Why?

I don't think people are so willing to be polite anymore and roll out of a throw or breakfall anymore, when you can counter a throw or takedown for your own protection and dominate on the ground.

Most olympic jujitsu/judo competition throws end with both guys on the ground. Why? It's hard to take them someone down cleanly when they don't want to be taken down.

I wouldn't let anyone throw me on concrete. I can counter most throws by pulling people down to groundfighting. It's pretty easy, really. Because most throwing arts aren't used to groundfighters who don't mind fighting on the ground.

Hmm, not sure what throwing training you have, but when we randori at judo class, esp before a tourny, we don't "give" anyone a throw. We resist fully and try to counter. Countering isn't always an option, but it can usually work, esp if there is a size advantage leaning to the one countering (i.e. Short guy countering o goshi from a larger opponent).

I think another thing to consider is that judo throws are best performed when you have uke off balance. It's not that you can't sometimes muscle the throw in, but that's poor technique and we don't like poor technique now do we?? It is the "gentle way" for a reason... :D