7starmantis
04-09-2001, 10:07 AM
This thread is a spin-off from one of LizMantis's entries in the last Jon Funk thread - I decided to start a new thread since the discussion had gotten off topic and what I wanted to say didn't have anything to do with Mr. Funk.
I do see alot of 'Kung Fu Shoppers' at tournaments as of late, and I am not very fond of using video tapes for martial arts. Generally people buy instructional videos to learn a certain form or pattern from a style they are not familiar with, as Kingmantis pointed out. I do understand the curiosity with doing this, but I think its a very poor way to learn.
From the videos I have seen, the general method of learning is just to mimic the movements. There is usually a brief explanation, although not always, of the applications of the various techniques. However, can you really learn and understand applications merely through observation?
In my opinion, this is a very superficial way of learning -- there is no real-life interaction with the student or your peers, it's basically imitating. I think you can get a basic grasp of some of the concepts behind the techniques, but unless you are learning face-to-face, with the opportunity to ask questions and also with intervention to correct poor or incorrect technique, then you're only short-changing yourself.
I think Liz had a point in that many teachers are reluctant to release videos because they don't want their style to be presented in this distilled fashion. It also affects their credibility if individuals are making claims of having studied with certain sifus based on a few seminars or videotapes. It's unfortunate there is so much squabble concerning legitimacy in the martial arts world, but reputation is important nonetheless.
This topic touches on the subject of crosstraining - and the 'Kung Fu Shopper', who in my way of thinking is someone who likes to observe and absorb as many different styles they can. My sifu has a saying that regarding newer kung fu students, many have "eyes bigger than their stomach". This means that many students, in their zest to learn, attempt to accelerate their learning and use the philosophy that quantity is better than quality.
I have found that many students lack patience, and don't often approach their martial arts training seriously and with humility. I have seen many new students who want to zip through a whole form in one night, not spending enough time to really let the underlying concepts and applications sink in. Other students have come to the school, and wanted to learn weapons from the get-go, almost to the point of demanding what they should be getting taught. This type of attitude toward training is fairly commonplace but disconcerting to me -- when students think their sifu should be like a jukebox - and that since they are paying for the classes, they should learn whatever they desire, at their own pace. To me, this is an insult to the teacher and rather presumptious.
Now, students with this mindset usually lack the determination and dedication to become serious in their training (they generally drop out rather quickly at our school), but I still see this go on alot. For example, I have seen and talked with students at tournaments performing various weapon patterns, such as Kwan Do or Hook swords, who could not really explain the applications behind the techniques or who admitted they only learned the form from a video. I am grateful that my sifu spends a great deal of time in demonstrating and explaining each technique when learning forms and concepts.
I'm NOT totally against cross-training - I have learned some Eagle Claw concepts from Lily and James Lau for example through their seminars - but I think alot of people mistakenly adopt the 'more is better' adage. I'm always a little amused when people tend to brag about how many forms they have learned, or that their system has X amount more than so-and-so system. My sifu has said that it's better to learn 1 form well, spending adequate time to really internalize it then to hurridly learn many half-heartedly. I think that some cross-training, when done properly, can enhance your main style but must be done seriously.
I know everyone gets into martial arts for their own reasons; we all have our own motivation and paths to follow. I myself tend to look at Kung Fu as a life-time committment and sometimes I perhaps expect the same of others. As Hua Lin Laoshi said in the earlier thread, learning in martial arts isn't always learning a new technique but better understanding what you have already learned.
Okay, I had intended to be more succinct, but as usual, I tend to ramble ... what is everyone else's thoughts on cross-training and learning from videos, quality vs. quantity? I tend to think that kung fu instructional videos have more to do with making a sifu some quick cash rather than spreading or preserving their art.
I do see alot of 'Kung Fu Shoppers' at tournaments as of late, and I am not very fond of using video tapes for martial arts. Generally people buy instructional videos to learn a certain form or pattern from a style they are not familiar with, as Kingmantis pointed out. I do understand the curiosity with doing this, but I think its a very poor way to learn.
From the videos I have seen, the general method of learning is just to mimic the movements. There is usually a brief explanation, although not always, of the applications of the various techniques. However, can you really learn and understand applications merely through observation?
In my opinion, this is a very superficial way of learning -- there is no real-life interaction with the student or your peers, it's basically imitating. I think you can get a basic grasp of some of the concepts behind the techniques, but unless you are learning face-to-face, with the opportunity to ask questions and also with intervention to correct poor or incorrect technique, then you're only short-changing yourself.
I think Liz had a point in that many teachers are reluctant to release videos because they don't want their style to be presented in this distilled fashion. It also affects their credibility if individuals are making claims of having studied with certain sifus based on a few seminars or videotapes. It's unfortunate there is so much squabble concerning legitimacy in the martial arts world, but reputation is important nonetheless.
This topic touches on the subject of crosstraining - and the 'Kung Fu Shopper', who in my way of thinking is someone who likes to observe and absorb as many different styles they can. My sifu has a saying that regarding newer kung fu students, many have "eyes bigger than their stomach". This means that many students, in their zest to learn, attempt to accelerate their learning and use the philosophy that quantity is better than quality.
I have found that many students lack patience, and don't often approach their martial arts training seriously and with humility. I have seen many new students who want to zip through a whole form in one night, not spending enough time to really let the underlying concepts and applications sink in. Other students have come to the school, and wanted to learn weapons from the get-go, almost to the point of demanding what they should be getting taught. This type of attitude toward training is fairly commonplace but disconcerting to me -- when students think their sifu should be like a jukebox - and that since they are paying for the classes, they should learn whatever they desire, at their own pace. To me, this is an insult to the teacher and rather presumptious.
Now, students with this mindset usually lack the determination and dedication to become serious in their training (they generally drop out rather quickly at our school), but I still see this go on alot. For example, I have seen and talked with students at tournaments performing various weapon patterns, such as Kwan Do or Hook swords, who could not really explain the applications behind the techniques or who admitted they only learned the form from a video. I am grateful that my sifu spends a great deal of time in demonstrating and explaining each technique when learning forms and concepts.
I'm NOT totally against cross-training - I have learned some Eagle Claw concepts from Lily and James Lau for example through their seminars - but I think alot of people mistakenly adopt the 'more is better' adage. I'm always a little amused when people tend to brag about how many forms they have learned, or that their system has X amount more than so-and-so system. My sifu has said that it's better to learn 1 form well, spending adequate time to really internalize it then to hurridly learn many half-heartedly. I think that some cross-training, when done properly, can enhance your main style but must be done seriously.
I know everyone gets into martial arts for their own reasons; we all have our own motivation and paths to follow. I myself tend to look at Kung Fu as a life-time committment and sometimes I perhaps expect the same of others. As Hua Lin Laoshi said in the earlier thread, learning in martial arts isn't always learning a new technique but better understanding what you have already learned.
Okay, I had intended to be more succinct, but as usual, I tend to ramble ... what is everyone else's thoughts on cross-training and learning from videos, quality vs. quantity? I tend to think that kung fu instructional videos have more to do with making a sifu some quick cash rather than spreading or preserving their art.