The "Expression" of Fighting"

[AdrianK]

Simple question, do you find your martial arts, your techniques, your expression of concepts, changed by your emotional state in any kind of dramatic way?

How do your moods change your expression?

[Lee Chiang Po]

That is not really all that simple a question. The term expression concepts does not fit well with fighting as such, so am not understanding what you are asking.

[AdrianK]

That is not really all that simple a question.

It isn't very common, but it is a fairly straightforward question. I suppose the terms I use may be confusing, though.



The term expression concepts does not fit well with fighting as such, so am not understanding what you are asking.

Fighting *is* expression. Just as speaking, walking, thinking, doing, all is a human expression of our experiences, our desires, and our abilities.

The Expression of Concepts, in relation to fighting, means how you fight based on the knowledge you've gained.


So to put it in layman's terms :rolleyes:, how does your fighting change based on your emotional state?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Adrian. Verrrry interesting!

I'll talk about my sparring sessions in answer to this. If I'm in any kind of an angry mood at all - and it's always a matter of degree - then I'll probably take more chances and throw more punches and kicks than usual - with the emphasis on the punches - and perhaps some more elbow and knee shots at close range than usual. In other words, I'm looking to do damage - as opposed to playing a more strategic game that might end with just some relatively equal amounts of hits or "points scored" on either (or both) sides - or perhaps ending with me trying to go for a tap with a submission hold, for example.

And on the other side, if I'm in a more reticent mood, a much more strategic game from the get-go will probably go down.

And if I've spent an adequate amount of time in the beginning of the class with breathing and concentration exercises - then my emotions will be more in check from the start and I'll probably just take what comes without trying to force the issue and without purposely trying to be strategic.

And it also might depend on whether or not my wife drove me crazy about something that day! LOL :rolleyes: :cool: :D

[t_niehoff]

That is not really all that simple a question. The term expression concepts does not fit well with fighting as such, so am not understanding what you are asking.

I agree. When we fight or do any atheltic activity, we are not "expressing concepts". You don't perform a concept. You perform a skill. These things aren't knowledge-based (concepts), they are skill-based.

No one talks about "the expression of concepts" when looking at a basketball game or a tennis match or a boxing match or wrestling match. And for good reason. That's NOT what is going on.

Instead of talking about "expression of concepts", just talk about performance. Do your emotions affect performaance? Sure. Lots of things affect performance.

[AdrianK]

When we fight or do any atheltic activity, we are not "expressing concepts". You don't perform a concept. You perform a skill.

Honestly, It's ridiculous that you're even bringing that up. You sound like one of those fanatics discussing the intricacies of Star Wars versus Star Trek. I already simplified what I meant, above.

If you dislike the terms I use about fighting, thats excellent. If you want to have a REAL Discussion about them, instead of just saying "Its wrong cause it is", then please make a point with some substance.

But just FYI -

- Expression = Human Action
- Concepts = Knowledge, Ideas

You can argue that you are "Expressing Skills" - Such as a combination attack - Jab to Cross to Hook, that'd be a skill. But the expression of WHEN to utilize those skills, comes from your previous experiences, from your knowledge, your feelings. When you're in close with someone, and you feel you can throw or trip them - The throw/trip is the skill, but the understanding that you can throw or trip them from that position, is the knowledge. Combined they are the concept.


But the most interesting thing is, I've chosen to spoke in these terms specifically to denote an artistic and scientific connection to the martial arts, and your biggest problem with what I say are the terms I use - Why don't you respond to the meat of the subject? The rest is a non-issue, as we can argue about it forever and a day the influence of concepts and knowledge, on a person.



No one talks about "the expression of concepts" when looking at a basketball game or a tennis match or a boxing match or wrestling match. And for good reason. That's NOT what is going on.

You're talking about sports, and even though boxing is a martial art, as a sport it is as such. We're talking about martial arts. The Expression of Concepts is simply a term I choose to use to describe the human action that is derived from emotion, skill, and understanding.

[punchdrunk]

this is a very good and interesting question! Of course fighting is expression, and it changes both with circumstance and emotion. For instance when training or sparring your emotions can be very visible based on how you move and what strategies you employ. Say you are nervous because you are training with someone much better than you and you feel judged by them or others around you, likely you will be more tense and stiff and have more defensive tactics. Now take the same situation and say you really want to impress your partner or others around, then you may be more concentrated yet willing to take more risks, even more agressive!
Now that is just training, in selfdefense your expression can be much more serious. But it is also much more personal and probably hard for most to share.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Now that I know exactly what you are asking, I do not work off my moods or emotions, unless it suggests that my very life or limb are at stake where Anyone might then suffer an emotional swing. I feel that if your mood at the time effects your performance then you do not have full control of your own body and mind. I know that it is not always possible to avoid this, but one should always try to be aware of what they are doing along those lines. Now, when you are sparring, you are not likely to be fearful of losing your life or suffer physical injury to an extreme, so you could actually then be effected by your mood if you are not careful. I personally would not spar with anyone because I would feel that I could not give 100% because of the fear of injuries. I have had quite a number of altercations in my life where I had to actually fight, and if I am right in my assessment, I never allowed a mood to interfere with what I did. I did however allow myself to express fear by reacting in an extreme manner.

[t_niehoff]

Honestly, It's ridiculous that you're even bringing that up. You sound like one of those fanatics discussing the intricacies of Star Wars versus Star Trek. I already simplified what I meant, above.

If you dislike the terms I use about fighting, thats excellent. If you want to have a REAL Discussion about them, instead of just saying "Its wrong cause it is", then please make a point with some substance.


I didn't say "it's wrong cause it is", I said that when we fight or do any athletic activity, which includes sports, we aren't "expressing concepts." That's not what is going on. Athletes don't think that way. They don't train that way.



But just FYI -

- Expression = Human Action
- Concepts = Knowledge, Ideas

You can argue that you are "Expressing Skills" - Such as a combination attack - Jab to Cross to Hook, that'd be a skill. But the expression of WHEN to utilize those skills, comes from your previous experiences, from your knowledge, your feelings. When you're in close with someone, and you feel you can throw or trip them - The throw/trip is the skill, but the understanding that you can throw or trip them from that position, is the knowledge. Combined they are the concept.


There is a COGNITIVE ELEMENT to any psycho-motor skill. That doesn't mean it is an intellectual concept or idea. The trouble with focusing on concepts is that you start to think about what is going on in a way that isn't accurate. Much of the cognitive elements invovled in fighting or in any sport or athletic activity isn't even taking place on a conscious level -- it takes place on the adaptive unconscious level. When, where, etc. to perform a skill is called timing. Timing isn't a conscious decision; if you try to make it so you will always be late. Timing takes place on the adapative unconscious level. Timing isn't based on a concept and isn't an intellectual problem. You only develop timing by doing the skill.



But the most interesting thing is, I've chosen to spoke in these terms specifically to denote an artistic and scientific connection to the martial arts, and your biggest problem with what I say are the terms I use - Why don't you respond to the meat of the subject? The rest is a non-issue, as we can argue about it forever and a day the influence of concepts and knowledge, on a person.


I did respond to the "meat" of your question: yes, Virginia, emotions can affect performance. Who didn't already know that? You can see that in every sport.



You're talking about sports, and even though boxing is a martial art, as a sport it is as such. We're talking about martial arts. The Expression of Concepts is simply a term I choose to use to describe the human action that is derived from emotion, skill, and understanding.

Sport, fighting, etc. are athletic activities, and as such commonalities apply (assome would put it, the same principles apply). Martial art isn't somehow different-in-kind than any other atheltic activity. Our bodies learn the same ways, move the same ways, develop skills the same ways, etc.

"Expression of Concepts" may be your term but it is misleading term, it doesn't truly reflect what is going on.

[-木叶-]

I think we need to understand what each other is trying to express and have respect for one another, otherwise it will be pointless and becomes a battle of words only... is it useful for every thread to become like that? :)

[sihing]

For me the answer is yes. When I train I try to play the guy coming back from a losing position to a winning position, so I train passively, which leaves me more vulnerable to my partners attacks. I find the skills developed this way are of a higher quality. Once in awhile I don't play this game and become more aggressive, take the person's space and blow them out, for the most part this works. So aggressiveness and high intensity emotions do play a part in how well I do things. Regarding concepts, the concepts lead the actions, at least in training they do, up to a point that what comes out in your responses in a fight is not forced but the natural expression, which is developed more effectively by the training, which is influenced by the concepts. Concepts don't fight, but without them your ability to use what you train in will be of low quality and less effective.

Here's a clip of Rashad Evans talking about his loss to Machida. If you strictly listen to what T advises, what Evan's says can't be possible. Obviously it is, as he states here, he was too distracted and had no idea what it was going to be like to be champ. His emotional as well as mental ability to hand his life situation definetly led to his defeat. Fighting is an athletic activity yes, but like all athletics, at the highest level, it is 90% mental, 10% physical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAvF7piv-vg

James

[AdrianK]

I didn't say "it's wrong cause it is", I said that when we fight or do any athletic activity, which includes sports, we aren't "expressing concepts." That's not what is going on. Athletes don't think that way. They don't train that way.

Because there isn't any room for variables or expression in things like running, throwing, or any of the basic skills necessary to play the games. There is a correct way to play the game, and an incorrect way. There is no artistic expression.

As for the MMA Community, its far too young to include that. They're all still trying to figure out how to emulate Lyoto Machida :D

Furthermore, athletes don't need to understand the game on every level. Only the basic level needed to perform. As Martial Artists who are discussing things on an internet forum, we obviously have a desire to look into things on a deeper level.



There is a COGNITIVE ELEMENT to any psycho-motor skill. That doesn't mean it is an intellectual concept or idea.

I don't mean to say you stop and think about it, and then do it. By expressing a concept, its a way to classify what you're doing in a way thats not overly-specific. In the same way people classify things as techniques, this is this technique, or this is that technique, in MA I feel you eventually give up the technique and merely utilize the ideas behind it. This would be my way of classifying that. This is not as important to MMA styles, as it is to WC and Kung Fu. Because most older Martial Arts styles, IMHO are very static. There is plenty of room for variable. In styles like Judo, Muay Thai, Boxing, etc. it isn't nearly as important because even if you think about these styles in a boxed in, stylistic way, you're still applying them on a daily basis in a broad, sweeping way.



The trouble with focusing on concepts is that you start to think about what is going on in a way that isn't accurate

Thats not true at all. The concepts are understood by doing. I can describe to you a grab conceptually, but unless you grab, you will never understand it. The description of it conceptually is just a means to help you understand everything that is happening when you do it. To give you new ideas on how to utilize it.



Much of the cognitive elements invovled in fighting or in any sport or athletic activity isn't even taking place on a conscious level -- it takes place on the adaptive unconscious level.

Absolutely. It doesn't mean you aren't expressing concepts. Look, I don't mean you're stopping, thinking about the concept you've learned, and then applying it. By expressing a concept, I mean your body is doing something, and the concept is a way to classify what it is doing. Thats my opinion, anyway.



Timing isn't based on a concept and isn't an intellectual problem. You only develop timing by doing the skill.

Timing is actually a concept, its been prevalent in music for a long, long time. The metronome is based on the concept of timing. Without a concept, or an intellectual understanding of timing, the metronome could not exist.

The speed bag and double end bag work on the concept of timing. Counter-punching works on the concept of timing as well.



I did respond to the "meat" of your question: yes, Virginia, emotions can affect performance. Who didn't already know that? You can see that in every sport.

Obviously it can. You missed the part where I asked how it effected your expression.

[t_niehoff]

Because there isn't any room for variables or expression in things like running, throwing, or any of the basic skills necessary to play the games. There is a correct way to play the game, and an incorrect way. There is no artistic expression.


You are completely wrong. Look at athletics -- basketball, tennis, boxing, wrestling, etc. -- these guys AREN'T all clones, moving in exactly the same way, doing things "in the correct manner", etc. There is a great deal of personal expression in all athletics.

WCK is no different than boxing or wrestling or basletball or tennis. It is an athletic activity. When we don't look at it that way, we begin to get lost in fantasy.



As for the MMA Community, its far too young to include that. They're all still trying to figure out how to emulate Lyoto Machida :D


They're also trying to figure out Fedor! You hear the same thing in all sports (why is so-and-so able to do what he does?). Nothing new.



Furthermore, athletes don't need to understand the game on every level. Only the basic level needed to perform. As Martial Artists who are discussing things on an internet forum, we obviously have a desire to look into things on a deeper level.


That "deeper level" is fantasy. Understanding, concepts, etc. are all words that describe intellectual dimensions. That intellectualization is part of the fantasy. You don't need it and it only gets in the way. Athletes don't talk that way becasue they don't fantasize -- they are doing their sport or athletic activity. It's not about knowledge or understanding -- Tiger Woods doesn't "know" something other golfers don't, it's not Roger Federer's "understanding" of tennis that makes him so good.

What's also so ironic -- and arrogant -- is the very notion that people who can't do something very well (fight with WCK) are trying to talk about "deeper levels"! This is like white belts in BJJ talking about the "deper levels" of BJJ -- how in the world can they know?



I don't mean to say you stop and think about it, and then do it. By expressing a concept, its a way to classify what you're doing in a way thats not overly-specific. In the same way people classify things as techniques, this is this technique, or this is that technique, in MA I feel you eventually give up the technique and merely utilize the ideas behind it. This would be my way of classifying that. This is not as important to MMA styles, as it is to WC and Kung Fu. Because most older Martial Arts styles, IMHO are very static. There is plenty of room for variable. In styles like Judo, Muay Thai, Boxing, etc. it isn't nearly as important because even if you think about these styles in a boxed in, stylistic way, you're still applying them on a daily basis in a broad, sweeping way.


When you play basketball, are you thinking of technique or concepts or "utilizing the idea behind them"? No, you learn the skills that you need to play the game, then play the game. Work on developing your skills. Play more of the game. Get some coaching if you need it. Play more games.



Thats not true at all. The concepts are understood by doing. I can describe to you a grab conceptually, but unless you grab, you will never understand it. The description of it conceptually is just a means to help you understand everything that is happening when you do it. To give you new ideas on how to utilize it.


Concepts are merely theory, ideas. They are unimportant. Skills are what is important.



Absolutely. It doesn't mean you aren't expressing concepts. Look, I don't mean you're stopping, thinking about the concept you've learned, and then applying it. By expressing a concept, I mean your body is doing something, and the concept is a way to classify what it is doing. Thats my opinion, anyway.


This is not what is going on. Take any physical skill, even a realitively simple one like riding a bike. You are not "expressing concepts", you are performing a skill. Your body is doing something. Conceptualizing what it is doing (dynamic balance?) doesn't help you do it and isn't useful. Concpetualization only gets in the way of performance. It's much simpler, and better, to say "here's the skill, now let's practice the skill".



Timing is actually a concept, its been prevalent in music for a long, long time. The metronome is based on the concept of timing. Without a concept, or an intellectual understanding of timing, the metronome could not exist.


Timing isn't a concept -- it is a part of skill. Hitting a baseball involves timing. You don't need some intellectual understanding to learn to hit a baseball. You need to learn how to hit a baseball and then practice hitting one. You will NATURALLY develop timing IF you practice the skill.



The speed bag and double end bag work on the concept of timing. Counter-punching works on the concept of timing as well.


You can't have timing in boxing or a martial art without a genuinely resisting opponent. A bag can't develop timing. It can develop your sense of rhythym.



Obviously it can. You missed the part where I asked how it effected your expression.

There's no simple answer to that. Performance has so many variables. I've had days where I was in teh best of moods and couldn't get anything to work well. I've had days where I was in various poor moods, and everything worked like a charm. And vice versa.

[AdrianK]

You are completely wrong. Look at athletics -- basketball, tennis, boxing, wrestling, etc. -- these guys AREN'T all clones, moving in exactly the same way, doing things "in the correct manner", etc. There is a great deal of personal expression in all athletics.

I should correct myself, I didn't mean to say theres no room for variables. But there is no room for any new concepts. Just like you couldn't introduce a new concept into the game of monopoly.

But, there are strategies, and there is how much effort each person expends. No one needs to focus on concepts or artistic expression because it isn't part of the sport.



WCK is no different than boxing or wrestling or basletball or tennis. It is an athletic activity. When we don't look at it that way, we begin to get lost in fantasy.

WCK is a Martial Art. There is no fantasy here, intellectualizing something to understand it on more than one level is no fantasy. That's ****ing ridiculous. Do I feel I need to intellectualize it to better my ability as a fighter? Absolutely not. But as someone who practices martial arts as a way of life and not as a hobby, I try to learn everything I can about it.



They're also trying to figure out Fedor! You hear the same thing in all sports (why is so-and-so able to do what he does?). Nothing new.

Well in most sports that kind of speculation is the result of superior mental and/or physical attributes. Not a different way of doing things.



That "deeper level" is fantasy. Understanding, concepts, etc. are all words that describe intellectual dimensions. That intellectualization is part of the fantasy. You don't need it and it only gets in the way.[/quote]

There is no fantasy here. If you believe its not for you, for whatever reason, thats great. There is nothing that hinders my abilities by intellectualizing it. The idea that because when I am not sparring, or training, I think about such things more in-depth, that would hinder me? Your claims are baseless. They are about scientifically correct as those Radical Ki guys that think they can shoot fireballs.



Athletes don't talk that way becasue they don't fantasize -- they are doing their sport or athletic activity.

Depends on the athlete. Depends on the culture. Bruce Lee wrote the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, Yagyu Munenori wrote The Life-Giving Sword, Miyamoto Musashi wrote The Book of Five Rings. All of which are the result of people who give more thought to their fighting arts, than the normal person.



It's not about knowledge or understanding -- Tiger Woods doesn't "know" something other golfers don't, it's not Roger Federer's "understanding" of tennis that makes him so good.

I never said you needed any kind of deeper understanding to be good at what you do. You don't. If you just train and follow, you can become great. If you want to lead, or create, however...



What's also so ironic -- and arrogant -- is the very notion that people who can't do something very well (fight with WCK) are trying to talk about "deeper levels"! This is like white belts in BJJ talking about the "deper levels" of BJJ -- how in the world can they know?

1.) We're talking about conceptualizing WCK. I should rephrase the "Deeper Level", more accurately I meant more in-depth. A White belt could hypothetically talk about concepts, physics, anatomy and how they apply to BJJ.

2.) You don't really know any of the fighting abilities of anyone here, so you might as well keep it off the board.

3.) I never said I fought with WCK or tried to. In fact what I am for is to separate the quality concepts, ideas, strategies and understand how they can be applied to my natural abilities. Not to try to fight like a WCK guy. WCK is very old and I personally believe that if modern scientific methods and artistic understanding were applied to it, it would be something more useful.



When you play basketball, are you thinking of technique or concepts or "utilizing the idea behind them"? No, you learn the skills that you need to play the game, then play the game. Work on developing your skills. Play more of the game. Get some coaching if you need it. Play more games.

I never said thought came into it. Yet again, expressing concepts is a term. Uprooting someone is a concept, for instance. There is no technique behind it, there are ideas and techniques that facilitate understanding the concept. But should you uproot someone, I would say you are expressing the knowledge you've learned about uprooting someone. Expressing a concept you've learned.

Again, you can call it a skill if you want. Concept is just a more broad definition. Its really the most pointless part of this discussion.



Concepts are merely theory, ideas. They are unimportant. Skills are what is important.

Yes, Concept is another way of saying Idea. Expressing a Concept would be expressing an idea. Expressing an idea is to show or perform an action of your idea - Which can easily be interpreted into performing an ability based on your knowledge. Which is the god ****ed definition of skill.

Honestly. Its not even important. But you get your panties in a bunch over a phrase you don't like. Get over yourself.



Timing isn't a concept -- it is a part of skill. Hitting a baseball involves timing. You don't need some intellectual understanding to learn to hit a baseball. You need to learn how to hit a baseball and then practice hitting one. You will NATURALLY develop timing IF you practice the skill.

Skill denotes knowledge. Knowledge denotes ideas, ideas = concepts.

Wow.



You can't have timing in boxing or a martial art without a genuinely resisting opponent. A bag can't develop timing. It can develop your sense of rhythym.

Rhythm and timing go hand in hand. If you are learning rhythm you are learning timing. Definitively.



There's no simple answer to that. Performance has so many variables. I've had days where I was in teh best of moods and couldn't get anything to work well. I've had days where I was in various poor moods, and everything worked like a charm. And vice versa.

Back to the original discussion, I was more trying to understand how you feel are the changes in your fighting from a more technical perspective.

For instance, when I am in a serious or playful mood when sparring, I am very light on my feet, I try to move around the opponent on fight on the outside. When I'm angry or in a bad mood, I'll try more to root and stand my ground more. This changes my stance, the skills :rolleyes: I utilize, and what I am willing to do to the opponent.

[chusauli]

Let me paraphrase Lee in Enter the Dragon, (Elmer Fudd voice), "You need emotiowal content, feeewl!"

If you're an emotional guy, use your emotions, but know that could trap you up. Better to fight cool, but indignant.

[t_niehoff]

I should correct myself, I didn't mean to say theres no room for variables. But there is no room for any new concepts. Just like you couldn't introduce a new concept into the game of monopoly.


They don't need concepts. Concepts are for the most part nonsense.



But, there are strategies, and there is how much effort each person expends. No one needs to focus on concepts or artistic expression because it isn't part of the sport.


Strategies, tactics, etc. aren't concepts -- they are strategies, tactics, etc. "Artistic expression" isn't a part of the fighting arts. Fighting isn't ballroom dancing or gymnastics.



WCK is a Martial Art. There is no fantasy here, intellectualizing something to understand it on more than one level is no fantasy. That's ****ing ridiculous. Do I feel I need to intellectualize it to better my ability as a fighter? Absolutely not. But as someone who practices martial arts as a way of life and not as a hobby, I try to learn everything I can about it.


WCK may be a martial art, but that doesn't stop people from trying to intellectualize it and/or fantasize. Martial arts is no more a way of life than golf is a way of life or surfing is a way of life. The "way of life" bit IS fantasy.



Well in most sports that kind of speculation is the result of superior mental and/or physical attributes. Not a different way of doing things.


Who knows? We don't. What made Michael Jordan so much better? What makes Rickson so much better? They call those things"intangibles" for a reason. What we do know is that the road they took to get there was to learn/train like any other athlete.



There is no fantasy here. If you believe its not for you, for whatever reason, thats great. There is nothing that hinders my abilities by intellectualizing it. The idea that because when I am not sparring, or training, I think about such things more in-depth, that would hinder me? Your claims are baseless. They are about scientifically correct as those Radical Ki guys that think they can shoot fireballs.


Actually, if you bother to do some research on how we learn and develop athletic abilities and skills, you'll see what I am saying is firmly grounded in science. Or, you can spend that time "looking deeper" into your concepts.



Depends on the athlete. Depends on the culture. Bruce Lee wrote the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, Yagyu Munenori wrote The Life-Giving Sword, Miyamoto Musashi wrote The Book of Five Rings. All of which are the result of people who give more thought to their fighting arts, than the normal person.


So what? That is not how they learned or developed their skill.



I never said you needed any kind of deeper understanding to be good at what you do. You don't. If you just train and follow, you can become great. If you want to lead, or create, however...


Look -- you seem to have it backwards. Skill doesn't come from knowledge and understanding. It comes from practice. Knowledge and understanding comes from skill. Your, and anyone's, knowledge and understanding is directly related to and tied to their skill level. So if a person doesn't high levels of skill, they can't ahve high levels of knowledge or understanding. And if they don't have high levels of knowledge or understanding, how can they lead or create?



1.) We're talking about conceptualizing WCK. I should rephrase the "Deeper Level", more accurately I meant more in-depth. A White belt could hypothetically talk about concepts, physics, anatomy and how they apply to BJJ.


And that would be a complete waste of time. I often wonder when I have these sorts of discussions with others if they have ever really been involved with playing sports -- because what they say is so utterly rediculous from that perspective. Do you think baseball players, tennis players, boxers, wrestlers, etc. are sitting around intellectualizing about concepts, physics, anatomy, etc.? Of course not. Let me be clear: the people who do are engaged in fantasy. You see, the answers won't come from intellectualization. They come from practice.



2.) You don't really know any of the fighting abilities of anyone here, so you might as well keep it off the board.


I'm not talking about anyone's skill level -- I'm talking about DOING IT. Anyone who does it, who plays the game, is going to have a different perspective.



3.) I never said I fought with WCK or tried to. In fact what I am for is to separate the quality concepts, ideas, strategies and understand how they can be applied to my natural abilities. Not to try to fight like a WCK guy. WCK is very old and I personally believe that if modern scientific methods and artistic understanding were applied to it, it would be something more useful.


Understanding and knowledge come from skill. You can't know or understand how to apply WCK EXCEPT through practice -- by trying to do it. You can't do it on a blackboard.



I never said thought came into it. Yet again, expressing concepts is a term. Uprooting someone is a concept, for instance. There is no technique behind it, there are ideas and techniques that facilitate understanding the concept. But should you uproot someone, I would say you are expressing the knowledge you've learned about uprooting someone. Expressing a concept you've learned.


In WCK we talk about "breaking structure" (of which uprooting in one way). That is NOT a concept. That is a strategic objective, something we are physically trying to do. Like hit the ball. Not a concept. Something we are trying to do. It is an objective that we can see, feel, measure (did we do it or not), etc.

Now, how can someone begin talking about "breaking structure" if they can't do it? They may have ideas of how it can be done, but that's pure theory (fantasy). Breaking structure in chi sao is doing it in an unrealistic situation (not under fighitng conditions). So, the only people who can talk about uprooting or breaking structure are people who are doing it in fighting -- those people know or understand it to the extent they can do it.



Again, you can call it a skill if you want. Concept is just a more broad definition. Its really the most pointless part of this discussion.


A skill you can measure, you can see, you can feel. Your body performs skills, not concepts. This discussion isn't pointless, and your term (concept) isn't talking about the same thing I am talking about. Your way of looking at things is not how they really are.



Yes, Concept is another way of saying Idea. Expressing a Concept would be expressing an idea. Expressing an idea is to show or perform an action of your idea - Which can easily be interpreted into performing an ability based on your knowledge. Which is the god ****ed definition of skill.


No, it's not. Hitting a baseball isn't the "expression of some idea" or the work of some "knowledge". Skill isn't based on ideas or concepts. Skill is the performance of some task. It's task-based. Your skill level is how well you can perform that task. Skillful performance is not dependent on any concept or knowledge -- it comes from practice, from doing the task over and over again so that you perform it better. There is a cognitive element to that, but as I said in an earlier post, that cognitive element isn't conceptual either.



Honestly. Its not even important. But you get your panties in a bunch over a phrase you don't like. Get over yourself.


I disagree -- I think this discussion underscores two very different ways of looking at WCK. Your way is the WCK-is-a-conceptual-martial-art view. My way is WCK-is-a-skill-based-fighting-method (that is an atheltic activity like any other and so the same "principles" apply to it).



Skill denotes knowledge. Knowledge denotes ideas, ideas = concepts.

Wow.


Roger Federer isn't a better tennis player because he knows more or understands more about tennis. Do you grasp that? His skill doesn't come from "superior" knowledge or understanding. All athletes (in a sport) pretty much have the same fundamentals. It's how well they can perform those fundamentals that make the difference.

Now, I'm not saying that thinking about your performance isn't useful. It certainly is. BUT -- and here's the HUGE but -- you must be performing to think about (examine) your performance. If Roger wasn't out on the courts, hitting balls, playing with good players, what would he have to examine? Fantasy.



Rhythm and timing go hand in hand. If you are learning rhythm you are learning timing. Definitively.


In fighting, rhythm and timing CAN be related, but timing only comes from sparring.



Back to the original discussion, I was more trying to understand how you feel are the changes in your fighting from a more technical perspective.

For instance, when I am in a serious or playful mood when sparring, I am very light on my feet, I try to move around the opponent on fight on the outside. When I'm angry or in a bad mood, I'll try more to root and stand my ground more. This changes my stance, the skills :rolleyes: I utilize, and what I am willing to do to the opponent.

My game doesn't change based on my mood. My mood can affect my performance.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am sorry but to say ones mood does not affect ones fighting is an admission of ones own "fantasy" approach to fighting. Sorry T could not resist ;)

When a person fights from Anger they will fight quite differently than if they are calm. One reason that someone in a rage may sometimes be taken advantage of, but this is not just for physical confrontation.

T you are a lawyer, are you going to tell me that you never try to ply emotion in court? If you can get your opponent, whether on the street or in court to react from emotion rather than logic can you honestly say there is no difference?

When I used to teach in Philly many of my students were minorities. I would often use slurs to get them mad so they would react from emotion rather than a cool head. After a while they came to realize that words were just words and had no affect other than what you allowed them to have. They also were able to deflect someone using slurs and not fight with their emotions.

Perhaps the concept, which of course means nothing as we all know concepts are just buzz words :rolleyes: of MUSHIN really does have some meaning.

[AdrianK]

They don't need concepts. Concepts are for the most part nonsense.

A concept is defined as an idea. An idea is part of knowledge, and knowledge is part of skill. All the English definitions of them go hand in hand. If you have an issue with that, go take it up with Websters, Dictionary.com, or any number of people who have defined these words long before you were ever born.



Strategies, tactics, etc. aren't concepts -- they are strategies, tactics, etc. "Artistic expression" isn't a part of the fighting arts. Fighting isn't ballroom dancing or gymnastics.

Strategies, Tactics, etc. are all concepts. They are more specifically strategies, tactics, etc., but they are STILL concepts, or ideas.

Artistic Expression is absolutely part of fighting. Artistic expression is part of everything we do, how we speak, interact, write, draw, create, walk, fight, everything. Who is to say what is not art? Every expression can be interpreted as such. If you dislike this, then don't do it.



WCK may be a martial art, but that doesn't stop people from trying to intellectualize it and/or fantasize. Martial arts is no more a way of life than golf is a way of life or surfing is a way of life. The "way of life" bit IS fantasy.

Martial Arts is a way of life like composing music or writing can be a way of life. Unlike those things however, Martial arts includes exercises for health and strength, as well as philosophies for how to live your life. These are part of the martial arts because they have been introduced time and again by many of the leading people in the martial arts. They are not part of ALL martial arts, but they are part of a large number of them. To say martial arts can't be a way or life is ridiculous, given this fact.



Who knows? We don't. What made Michael Jordan so much better? What makes Rickson so much better? They call those things"intangibles" for a reason. What we do know is that the road they took to get there was to learn/train like any other athlete.

We know because we watch them. They aren't doing anything different - Like for instance, when Royce Gracie first entered the UFC - Everyone knew that what made him really special, was that he was doing something that most people hadn't seen before. Not to take anything away from his athletic or mental abilities. What really set him apart was his "new"(new to many competitors in the US) style of fighting. That isn't what sets someone like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant or Tiger Woods apart. Everyone sees them do what they do, and they simply execute the same ideas, better than everyone else.



Actually, if you bother to do some research on how we learn and develop athletic abilities and skills, you'll see what I am saying is firmly grounded in science. Or, you can spend that time "looking deeper" into your concepts.

:rolleyes: Oh boy, more ridiculousness. There is no study out there that says learning and thinking about things conceptually, hinders your athletic abilities and skills, in any way. There isn't. As long as you put in the proper training time, you will progress the same as everyone else.



So what? That is not how they learned or developed their skill.

And they still made a valuable contribution to the martial arts. I never said it was necessary to do that, to develop skill.



Look -- you seem to have it backwards. Skill doesn't come from knowledge and understanding. It comes from practice. Knowledge and understanding comes from skill. Your, and anyone's, knowledge and understanding is directly related to and tied to their skill level. So if a person doesn't high levels of skill, they can't ahve high levels of knowledge or understanding. And if they don't have high levels of knowledge or understanding, how can they lead or create?

You seem to be either misreading or twisting everything I say. I never said skill comes from knowledge and understanding. Though knowledge and understanding can help the process, skill comes from training. No one is debating that. Never in this thread have I debated that point.

Saying that, knowledge and understanding isn't tied in with skill. It is true that a higher level of skill can give you a higher level of understanding, it isn't the only way. - Look at Freddie Roach for instance, he never had the skill to get a world championship, but he learned and understood boxing so well, he's trained people like Manny Pacquiao, James Toney, Amir Khan, he's one of the most sought after boxing trainers today. Cus d'amato and Angelo Dundee, too.



And that would be a complete waste of time. I often wonder when I have these sorts of discussions with others if they have ever really been involved with playing sports -- because what they say is so utterly rediculous from that perspective. Do you think baseball players, tennis players, boxers, wrestlers, etc. are sitting around intellectualizing about concepts, physics, anatomy, etc.? Of course not. Let me be clear: the people who do are engaged in fantasy. You see, the answers won't come from intellectualization. They come from practice.

Answers can come from practice. Its not the only place they can come from.



Understanding and knowledge come from skill. You can't know or understand how to apply WCK EXCEPT through practice -- by trying to do it. You can't do it on a blackboard.

You can understand a whole host of aspects. That knowledge won't directly improve your own personal coordination, or abilities. But it can serve to improve your training, which in turn improves your abilities.



In WCK we talk about "breaking structure" (of which uprooting in one way). That is NOT a concept. That is a strategic objective, something we are physically trying to do. Like hit the ball. Not a concept. Something we are trying to do. It is an objective that we can see, feel, measure (did we do it or not), etc

A skill you can measure, you can see, you can feel. Your body performs skills, not concepts. This discussion isn't pointless, and your term (concept) isn't talking about the same thing I am talking about. Your way of looking at things is not how they really are.

No, it's not. Hitting a baseball isn't the "expression of some idea" or the work of some "knowledge". Skill isn't based on ideas or concepts. Skill is the performance of some task. It's task-based. Your skill level is how well you can perform that task. Skillful performance is not dependent on any concept or knowledge -- it comes from practice, from doing the task over and over again so that you perform it better. There is a cognitive element to that, but as I said in an earlier post, that cognitive element isn't conceptual either.

I disagree -- I think this discussion underscores two very different ways of looking at WCK. Your way is the WCK-is-a-conceptual-martial-art view. My way is WCK-is-a-skill-based-fighting-method (that is an atheltic activity like any other and so the same "principles" apply to it).

The definition is pretty clear. Skill can be a more specific way of saying it under certain conditions, but concept still applies, by definition.




Now, I'm not saying that thinking about your performance isn't useful. It certainly is. BUT -- and here's the HUGE but -- you must be performing to think about (examine) your performance. If Roger wasn't out on the courts, hitting balls, playing with good players, what would he have to examine? Fantasy.

And I never said you don't have to perform to do it! Ugh. Yeah, the knowledge and ideas are worthless to your fighting ability directly, if you don't put in the training and fighting. I've never disagreed with that point.



In fighting, rhythm and timing CAN be related, but timing only comes from sparring.

Timing an opponent, comes from any exchange with an opponent. Absolutely. But learning the ideas behind timing, helps you to apply that knowledge to your sparring, to expedite the understanding.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Martial arts is no more a way of life than golf is a way of life or surfing is a way of life. The 'way of life' bit IS fantasy." (Terence Niehoff)


***WHAT'S FANTASY is trying to lay this gem out there as fact. Or theory. Or Neihoff concept, or anything else to be taken seriously.

I’ll just throw out some names:

Mas Oyama, Helio Gracie, Carlos Gracie, Nakamura, Gogen Yamaguchi, Akira Maeda, Jigoro Kano, Bruce Lee, Peter Urban, Jon Bleming, Karl Gotch, Lou Thesz, Billy Riley, Martin Burns, Ed Parker, Gene Lebell, and God knows how many other American, British, German, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Russian, Greek, Armenian, etc.etc.etc….people to whom their involvement in fighting/wrestling/martial…arts had/has become a life long endeavor that truly defined in an enormous way who they really were.

Their “art” was indeed their life.

[Liddel]

Their “art” was indeed their life.

Totally on you with this one Vic. Funny T mentioned Surfing -

In fact as someone thats interviewed Kelly slater at a local beach for a story last year one of his answers to a question included him saying "surfing for me...is a way of life"... that from a world champ and one of the all time best...

When i was on a shoot for a Beckham IV last year he said football was a way of life for him to... so ive heard from so called top level athletes first hand and they tend not to follow what T has put foward there....LOL

Nice BS job T, bet a few were eating it up :rolleyes::p :o:cool:

But i guess really its all in your POV so... but what a crack up. :D

DREW

[Mr Punch]

Even if ideas = concepts, I'm still not expressing ideas if I'm fighting, except in the most abstract and practically useless manner. Unless it goes like this: my idea is to kick the crap out of this guy before he does that to me or my family member. Sure, I'll express that idea :rolleyes:

Even though the list of people Victor rightly said were living their arts is correct, it doesn't mean they were expressing concepts in anything more than the aforementioned abstract and useless way when they fought.

When you fight you have a definite objective: to beat your opponent and survive. Sure, that could be a concept, but thinking of it that way doesn't help me achieve my objective.

Artistic expression? Expressing your emotions and feelings with the sole, circular objective of sharing them with a fellow human... is artistic expression. So to say that in fighting I'm expressing my emotions, or using artistic expression is total bollocks. My objective is, and I reiterate, to mess up my enemy, not to share my feelings and humanity with him. LOL, the pavement is my canvas, my attacker is my paint! :D

The only feelings I want in a fight are animal, or if I can transcend that, as Mr Chu said and Sihing 73 hinted at, a detachment.

Sounds more to me like most of you are talking about sparring.

[Wayfaring]

Even if ideas = concepts, I'm still not expressing ideas if I'm fighting, except in the most abstract and practically useless manner. Unless it goes like this: my idea is to kick the crap out of this guy before he does that to me or my family member. Sure, I'll express that idea :rolleyes:


I think the incorporation of ideas and concepts into fighting is more of a strategic thing. After reviewing where you are at and skills you have built and overall movement and strategy, you come to plateaus where to progress to a higher level takes some evaluation at the concept level. This usually requires a skilled coach. From there you can design some drills to incorporate these ideas and concepts into your hardwiring or body karma, because there's no time for mental application of ideas and concepts in a fight or alive sparring scenario.

The mind conceptualizes and designs in what to build into the body. The drills can be conceptualized, and yet to be effective they have to be trained in to the athletic framework of conditioned response in an alive stressed environment.

Also, after becoming acclimitized to the more shocking aspects of a truly alive sparring environment, one can evaluate the overall progress of a fight and adjust mentally to a different tactic. In that environment it is most helpful for a competitor to train complementary scenarios.

[Mr Punch]

I think the incorporation of ideas and concepts into fighting is more of a strategic thing. After reviewing where you are at and skills you have built and overall movement and strategy, you come to plateaus where to progress to a higher level takes some evaluation at the concept level. This usually requires a skilled coach. From there you can design some drills to incorporate these ideas and concepts into your hardwiring or body karma, because there's no time for mental application of ideas and concepts in a fight or alive sparring scenario.That's a reasonable point and nicely put.:)

Except that... body karma bit. :( Yeah. That's horrible. :eek: I think I just tasted a chunk.