kick training

[marcus_pasram]

Some training clips recently added:

NYC learning to apply some kicks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAZOzifRm7U)
Jones and Chun working back and forth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=minUl64w_Yw)

enjoy

[Hendrik]

Sure,

Jones and Chun working back and forth.

do this in Thai land or those based ball breaking Kyokushin kickers one is asking for a broken leg.
Those happen in 1970's but i guess people dont learn the lesson .

with all the protection gear and un aware of reality;
one is training in a misleading path. ... Sad.

[tigershorty]

it's not for sport. you might wanna train a lot of things for scenarios..

but if you live in america, and are training for self defense..and not planning to run into thai kickboxers or the karate kid, or maybe train for someone other than that....it might be okay.
i still think that stuff can work if performed right on most anyone, tho.

they were obviously experimenting with it. where's the common sense?

[AdrianK]

but if you live in america, and are training for self defense..and not planning to run into thai kickboxers or the karate kid

I'd love to get some statistics on the amount of males who have taken some form of kickboxing or martial art that encourages kicking to the leg. It'd be a good percentage. That percentage probably goes way up when you filter everyone but the types of people who are most likely to get into fights.

Anyways, point being, if you get into a fight you didn't pick, chances are the guy has training in something or another. Nonetheless, you should always train for the most competent possible opponent.

I didn't yet watch the video, so I'm not criticizing anything that went on. Just saying the excuse that you're not planning to run into thai boxers or the karate kid, isn't reasonable anymore, especially not with the incredible popularity of MMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's not for sport. you might wanna train a lot of things for scenarios..

but if you live in america, and are training for self defense..and not planning to run into thai kickboxers or the karate kid, or maybe train for someone other than that....it might be okay.
i still think that stuff can work if performed right on most anyone, tho.

they were obviously experimenting with it. where's the common sense?

Common sense dictates that you train for the WORSE case scenario, not the best case one.

[Hendrik]

it's not for sport. you might wanna train a lot of things for scenarios..

but if you live in america, and are training for self defense..and not planning to run into thai kickboxers or the karate kid, or maybe train for someone other than that....it might be okay.
i still think that stuff can work if performed right on most anyone, tho.

they were obviously experimenting with it. where's the common sense?



OK, anyone want to train how to block a based ball bat with thier arm wearing protective gear?

Common sense? that is called Martial entertainment instead of martial art.



For Martial art training why do one want to train something which is problematic in real life application or could screw up one when it becomes a habit or endanger oneself?

What is common sense? that is called stupidity.

What SELF DEFENCE when one could not handle a Kick safely?

[Hendrik]

I didn't yet watch the video, so I'm not criticizing anything that went on. Just saying the excuse that you're not planning to run into thai boxers or the karate kid, isn't reasonable anymore, especially not with the incredible popularity of MMA.

When I was young and live in asia, there was a time lots of people got interesting ideas after watching HongKong movies on how to defeat or deal with Round Horse kick. Some block it, some do like the clip does, some..... all kind.

But guess what? all of those who think they can do it got themself into trouble. I still remember a guy how trying to a void low round horse kick by bow down....etc and he got knock unconcious in the tournement.

As for blocking the leg, how much one has condition one's leg with herbs and medicine....etc? even if one is conditioning one's leg, one still DONT want to take the kick in and block it. because it is stupid to take a full swing in motion object directly into oneself and testing how hard is oneself or how to deal with the momentum comming in.

once the opponents' motion start, he got the momentum and one needs to have fast acceletion to keep up/deal with that momentum... etc to the worst is to take that momentum fulling while one is at lower motion.

look at those road block which sitting there trying to block the car from get out of the high way, and when the car really hit them, look at what happen.

one step wrong one broke one's leg or one got knock down.

So what is the point? common sense? or practicing Macho-ism with stupidity.

Will that type of WCK works? Forget about it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The second video clip, Jones and Chun - not bad.

[tigershorty]

im not assuming you get to pick who you fight..but youre assuming that something may or may not work because you may run into someone specifically.

i think thats flawed logic.

if they get better and keep practicing..i think that stuff would work against most.
and handle a kick safely? theyre learning..obviously.

[couch]

Some training clips recently added:

NYC learning to apply some kicks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAZOzifRm7U)
Jones and Chun working back and forth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=minUl64w_Yw)

enjoy

I liked them. Thanks.

[punchdrunk]

it is very nice to see people practicing and experimenting, please don't take anyone's criticism too seriously or personally. If I may offer some idea's 1) experiment with different leg and arm positions if you must absorb kicks 2) experiment with different distances for the leg gaurd 3) experiment with different timing for example making contact earlier in the kick excecution and outright interception or possibly outright evasion. These aren't critiques just ideas I've played with, honestly everyone does things a bit differently... kudos to you for the vids and sharing!

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is nothing that wrong with the clips, though in the second one they start off WAY TOO far away from each other.
What is wrong is the assumption that you will face an untrained person in a fight.

[monji112000]

since this seems to be a applied WC thread, I'll post these two clips by Chris Blatter. In the context of just getting the technique down , I think they are VERY good examples of using WC. Its pretty clear that the student Chris is working with is just a beginner.. so keep that in mind. This isn't "sparring".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ewFtdgUFrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzb5eess5u8

[Yoshiyahu]

What are some old school kicking training?

1.Conditiong shins and legs for impact (Accidents happen)

2.Increasing Kicking power (Heavy bag, Tree or wooden Post)

3.Defense against kicks (How do you drill to defend against kicks)

***Whats the purpose of drilling?

[Lucas]

What is wrong is the assumption that you will face an untrained person in a fight.

and we should all know better than that. i mean thats simple strategy in writting as old as sun tzu

[Ultimatewingchun]

On the first Chris Batter vid, things get very interesting around 1:15 of the vid until the end. Not bad at all. I like to see these kinds of drills.

[marcus_pasram]

Anyways, point being, if you get into a fight you didn't pick, chances are the guy has training in something or another. Nonetheless, you should always train for the most competent possible opponent.


I agree with the sentiment in that statement. The premise of SiFu Lee's approach to Wing Chun is to consider your adversary is Larger, Stronger, Faster, has better timing, etc.



I didn't yet watch the video, so I'm not criticizing anything that went on. Just saying the excuse that you're not planning to run into thai boxers or the karate kid, isn't reasonable anymore, especially not with the incredible popularity of MMA.


Feel free to comment, or ask a question. My SiFu doesn't claim to be the best, or an authority. He puts up these clips so share his ideas, and have a discussion.

[marcus_pasram]

Applied Hendrik filter

blah blah blah common sense. blah blah blah stupid. blah wear gear to protect themselves when getting kicked.

Congratulations. Apparently you don't even know the purpose of the pads, and yet jump to a conclusion and preach like an expert. Ever fed your kung fu brothers a few thousand kicks in a single class to help them train their defensive techniques? I also presume, from your sermon, that you've never experienced an elbow or knee to your shin. Pads are worn to protect the attacker from injuries due to repetitive trauma.

[Hendrik]

Applied Hendrik filter


Congratulations. Apparently you don't even know the purpose of the pads, and yet jump to a conclusion and preach like an expert. Ever fed your kung fu brothers a few thousand kicks in a single class to help them train their defensive techniques?

I also presume, from your sermon, that you've never experienced an elbow or knee to your shin. Pads are worn to protect the attacker from injuries due to repetitive trauma.


You are totally right.

I have no experience and really dont want to experience on something which is giving me FALSE SECURITY. That is because I dont want ANY bad habit which screw me up in the real confrontation.


If a kicker cant take a hit on his shin or avoid or avert it or minimized it, dont kick.

Wearing a protective gear and freely doing what one wants, be it making sense or not; is only giving one a FALSE CONFIDENT and make a SLOPPY habit. it is dangerous like Hell when this type of FALSE CONFIDENT and SLOPY habit stick to one in Martial art training.

In Kyokushin, some can break base ball bat with shin, and they all do breaking test with Kicks for power and precision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kLTALdO74Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC_uubfERyA

You want to test your kicking and anti kicking and see how you measure up, go to Thai land MT school or Kyoukushin, where no gear and KO is a norm.

and what happen, if you meet one of Kyokushin or MT with your kick experiments? Will you survive? the answer is clear.

[-木叶-]

The vids are nice, thanks for posting.

Hendrik why do you say the shin pads are not necessary? They dont give you
a false sense of security actually, because the fighters are not training
whether their kicks can do a dent in a metal wall...
The pads provide protection during training , that you don't actually injure yourself personally before you even can get into the competition at all.

[Hendrik]

The vids are nice, thanks for posting.

Hendrik why do you say the shin pads are not necessary? They dont give you
a false sense of security actually, because the fighters are not training
whether their kicks can do a dent in a metal wall...
The pads provide protection during training , that you don't actually injure yourself personally before you even can get into the competition at all.




In real life do you wear Shin pads when you fight? Do you even have a competition at all when you have all kind of UN AWARENESS in your kicking technics?


If your shin is not condition enough or be able to minimize your damage, can you use your kick?

why don you use arm pads when you doing a sparing ?


when I did Kyokushin ;

no gear, be able to really doing damage, aim for KO if possible are the teaching when it is a formal action (meaning not playing with friend for fun but when both side agree this is testing of skill)


To be real honest, lots of so called Kung Fu people dont know what they face and being very naive.

have you seen people slip in the round kick under the elbow of the opponents to hit their rips? that is how precise and control it can be when it is about kick. So, dont kid yourself.

[-木叶-]

In real life do you wear Shin pads when you fight? Do you even have a competition at all when you have all kind of UN AWARENESS in your kicking technics?


If your shin is not condition enough or be able to minimize your damage, can you use your kick?

why don you use arm pads when you doing a sparing ?


when I did Kyokushin ;

no gear, be able to really doing damage, aim for KO if possible are the teaching when it is a formal action (meaning not playing with friend for fun but when both side agree this is testing of skill)


To be real honest, lots of so called Kung Fu people dont know what they face and being very naive.

have you seen people slip in the round kick under the elbow of the opponents to hit their rips? that is how precise and control it can be when it is about kick. So, dont kid yourself.

I understand, but safety in training is also important, we learn to be safe for our
sparring partners, and then when it is done, we learn to fight without the shinpads, we learn control. The most important thing is control.

Edit addition:
And remember, Wing Chun is a form of 以柔制刚 功夫, if we train properly, we do not
even need to condition our shins to do damage with it.

The wood is always hard, whereas the leaf is always soft, no matter how hard the leaf
is, the wood will always pierce.

[Hendrik]

I understand, but safety in training is also important, we learn to be safe for our
sparring partners, and then when it is done, we learn to fight without the shinpads, we learn control. The most important thing is control.


Sure,

this is your competitior beside the MT and Kyokushin. did they wear pad? and how good is Pad? Take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyNmV2Y43ko





And remember, Wing Chun is a form of 以柔制刚 功夫, if we train properly, we do not
even need to condition our shins to do damage with it.

The wood is always hard, whereas the leaf is always soft, no matter how hard the leaf
is, the wood will always pierce.


To be real honest and not being insulting, what you say above is a Mantra which most is clueless what to do. They say the mantra thinking they can ward off others. But this is a not Movie making to make WCK looks good.


Look at those Kyokushin clips and the Praying Mantis clip above. Those are real deal.


As for the kicking clip, I dont mean to insult it but only critic,

Look at the clip, is it 以柔制刚 act or is it hard versus hard and depend who is faster? but because dont have the Kyokushin or Mantis Kung fu so end up rely on pad.

But, in the real life, when meeting the Kyokushin and Mantis, Good luck. Even with pad as in the Mantis the power is still penetrating so can one deal with that?

Face the reality, make believe and mantra and the training which is very conditional rely on "if this if that" doesnt work.

in fact, get one into false security that will cause one's trouble big time.



Just some thoughts and I rest my case on this topic.

[lkfmdc]

shin pads were developed in THAILAND by "nak muay" (Thai boxers") for practice

[-木叶-]

Sure,

this is your competitior beside the MT and Kyokushin. did they wear pad? and how good is Pad? Take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyNmV2Y43ko

To be real honest and not being insulting, what you say above is a Mantra which most is clueless what to do. They say the mantra thinking they can ward off others. But this is a not Movie making to make WCK looks good.

Look at those Kyokushin clips and the Praying Mantis clip above. Those are real deal.

As for the kicking clip, I dont mean to insult it but only critic,

Look at the clip, is it 以柔制刚 act or is it hard versus hard and depend who is faster? but because dont have the Kyokushin or Mantis Kung fu so end up rely on pad.

But, in the real life, when meeting the Kyokushin and Mantis, Good luck. Even with pad as in the Mantis the power is still penetrating so can one deal with that?

Face the reality, make believe and mantra and the training which is very conditional rely on "if this if that" doesnt work.

in fact, get one into false security that will cause one's trouble big time.

Just some thoughts and I rest my case on this topic.

以柔制刚 is not a mantra which most are clueless, in fact, i believe all WCK learners
and practitioners alike understand it. Using little force to withstand huge force,
warding off force, and using other's force against them, this is all taught irregardless of what lineage we are from.

False security is only given when you have little understanding, make up like
Bruce Lee (No offense here to the Master), and think you can win any other
fighter.
Wearing protective gear during training ... does not give you false security...
it is for safety and for your partner's sake...

But i understand where you are coming from, before we get to that stage, do
you not think wearing safety gear helps in improving other areas like skill, honing, etc... you would like to try things a little bit harder without injuring others right?

[grasshopper 2.0]

Now i can't say i always agree with Hendrik, but perhaps one of the points he's trying to make would be that training without pads, quickly exposes how the technique SHOULD be trained to avoid serious damage. With pads, however, this could be hidden as we wouldn't feel as much of the impact, and somewhat "numb the sensitivity" to know how we might have to change angles, timing, or even maybe the technique altogether.

On top of that, although i agree that pads protect the attacker from repetitive stress of the kicking, that the lack of pain allows us to follow up with our intended response. But what if the pain was there? The follow up may be hampered quite a bit (eg. slow response, sloppy response because of all that pain), but again, we wouldn't know since we wouldn't feel the pain. And so, really, the response we're training for becomes less useful...at least...potentially.

We wouldn't know unless you train without the pads...

For myself, i've noticed that when i train with pads on, i might get lazier as fatigue kicks in and let the legs catch the kick. But without pads on..after a couple of kick or so, i don't even let that become an option and try to drive into the opponent before the kick becomes something dangerous. you realize how exhausting the whole ordeal is, mentally and physically. This is simply my own experience - it's interesting how quickly things change when you adjust a variable.

[lkfmdc]

HERE ARE CLIPS FROM THAILAND

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8MbkwRiPcc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFmBGjPKIUU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0bDQK1VQzg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz97jNWxM6M

DO YOU NOTICE THE PRO FIGHTERS IN THAILAND WEARING SHIN PADS :rolleyes:

[Liddel]

Sure,
Jones and Chun working back and forth.
do this in Thai land or those based ball breaking Kyokushin kickers one is asking for a broken leg.
Those happen in 1970's but i guess people dont learn the lesson .
with all the protection gear and un aware of reality;
one is training in a misleading path. ... Sad.

Another roadblock post from you buddy, how does this help anyone. Just straight criticism with no explanantion. How about being constructive :rolleyes:.

What would you do different to be able to block baseball bats with Wing Chun Hendrik ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I liked the clips as these guys are mixing it up and not just repeating Fook Jum Da all day long which so many people complain about.

The first thing i would say though is the actions can be livened up still. Its never a good idea to raise a limb as a 'barrier' for blocking which is what i see in the clips. The limbs need aliveness and momentum to support leading forces away or nullifying them etc.

My blocks for kicks have minor tourqing(sp?) forces at work, similar to say a Bong Sau. When you apply a Bong your forearm rotates as a force seperate to that of the overall foce from the shoulder and turning body putting the action out. This is a type of inch power and this force should be everywhere in good Wing Chun.

In the case of checking and blocking kicks with legs, minor hip movement and turning of the foot(which in turn, rotates the shins direction) can lend attacking forces to your outside and add support to your check / block seperate to the force of raising the leg.

I also use this type of force when i attack, for instance the front kick given by the guy on the left is totally vertical (his toes are at 12o'clock).It looks all leg/knee force which can still be added to IME.
My VT front kick uses the ball of the foot as a touch point and has hip and foot rotation force as it catches the body of my target, my right front kick for example has the toes off towards one and two o'clock, my foots rotating 12 through 2 and my hips are opening slightly as i kick as my knee comes through the center line and off to one side etc... all these movements are added momentum adding to the support and forces of the overall action. Every little bit helps... alot IME.

In a sence this type of Kung Fu use can be like attacking the attack. Ever used a hook against a training partner and thier use of a blocking action has had the force hurt your own arm rather than transfering your punching force 100% into your target :rolleyes: Its like that. Its not the be all and end all but its a great start on the road to recieving heavy actions and is what good Kung Fu is about...

Cheers for posting.

DREW

[lkfmdc]

There is a difference between training and fighting

The criticism indicates the person who made it does not understand the difference

In Thailand, a pro match is done without shin pads, but practice is done with shin pads

It's strange, the thing CMA is usually criticized for is not trying to do things with force and resistance, yet when we see a clip of them at least TRYING they also get criticized, so under those condtions, there is no "win"

[TenTigers]

You wear pads for training. The impact still penetrates. Don't kid yourself. Even with pads, it hurts, and you are getting conditioned. As your conditioning improves, you don't need pads with most people, however you will always need them when you face your Si-Hings, as they are still improving, and their power and conditioning is increasing proportionately. You will still need pads when training and drilling many repetitions.
I've trained with Sifu Lee, and I've also trained in Kyokushin, and yes, we wore pads, and when we didn't, we also missed days of classes due to the bruising our legs took.
If you have ever done this type of training, you would understand this. Otherwise, it is mere speculation.

Another great training vid.
Would enjoy seeing defenses against tight hooks and a quick, snappy jab, as well as doubling up on the jab. (just thought I'd mention it...:-)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Shin pads server their purpose, although they are going pretty light in those clips so I am not sure what purpose they server there.
That said, I have always viewed shin pads as protection for my partner, not me but they also help you train while bruised, never a bad thing.

[monji112000]

Shin pads server their purpose, although they are going pretty light in those clips so I am not sure what purpose they server there.
That said, I have always viewed shin pads as protection for my partner, not me but they also help you train while bruised, never a bad thing.

you will see people wearing a high level of shin pads because they train with shoes on. We do a few kicks were we hit with the edge of the foot to the shin, and wearing shoes it hurts allot. When i train with someone who does those kicks (with real force) I wear hard soccer shin guards under my normal THICK shin guards. That being said I have a friend who wears just thin old worn karate style shin guards.. but he is crazy (his Sifu gave them to him like 10 years ago). You will see forearm pads because we block kicks with our hands during training.. people kick hard.. it takes time to get used to it. Also people slam hard for Pak sao. Allot of people will just stop wearing all the pads after a few months of training.. If the guy isn't kicking hard I tend to not wear pads or just the bare minimum..

I always said the pads look goofy... but people tend to let loose more when they only feel pain and don't worry about breaking bones..