yip kin wing chun

[punchdrunk]

different and I'm not sure what the form is, but enjoy anyway.(some of the comments are hilarious).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PahbhzQIo&feature=fvw

very different from Yip Man but Wing Chun is just a name that many have used.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It looks typical of Indonesian styles. It seems to have deveated away from some of the more basic concepts. Then there is the little moves that are tossed in to make it look good. Wing Chun should be more direct and to the point without all the little cool moves and you should not violate your own center line.

[chusauli]

In SE Asia, they have clearly added some ideas of Hung Kuen or CLF in their WCK.

But people have to survive and take what they find will help them. Chinese had it hard in SE Asia.

[Eric Ling]

Robert,

Yip Kin and some lines of Cho Gar landed in SE Asia with previously added non-Wing Chun influences.

Hendrik would tell you that in Poon Yu (Ngar Wu or Crow Lake), Cho Gar ancestral home, where Cho Gar WCK first flourished, CLF and other styles were already taught there.

Different Cho Gar lines retained varying influences of these non-WCK forms with their individual transmission.

And Hendrik is right, some Cho Gar are better known as “Shaolin Opera” Kung Fu and not specifically WCK because of the heavy non-WCK elements.

No right or wrong here, different folks different strokes imho.

[chusauli]

No problem Eric!

I certainly agree. I know about the Cho family and am grateful for their preserving the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao seed. I think somehow that Yip Kin's line is somehow related to the Cho family.

If they modified their art for application, and it works, that's fine.

If they collected and taught a lot of forms and to support themselves in SEA, that's also fine.

If they liked what they were originally taught like (CLF and Hung Ga) and they combined it with WCK, that's fine, too.

People like variation. And there is always lots of local evolution for different reasons.

A pleasure chatting here!

[chusauli]

BTW, a thought - advanced CLF emphasizes Noi Liem Sao, akin to our sticking hands.

[Hendrik]

Eric,


IMHO,


This is where the Shao Lin term of the Opera or Cho family comes from


太平天國敗亡後，三合會眾以少林子弟互稱，共尊南少林寺(福建莆田)為祖廟。而當時五個武術社 團之主持則為 少林五老。故蔡李佛拳尊至善禪師為先祖。是南少林拳一種。


However the original of SLT which Yik kam passed down was from Miu Shun which is predated the Taiping heavenly Kingdom uprising. We know the source is White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang.





So what is the characteristics of the Yik Kam Wing Chun or SLT art?

The characteristic is body soft finger tip hard (contact point hard).




the characteristics of White Crane of Fujian is Body hard hand soft.
as it is said 要做到內節如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；中節吞墜，尾節如膠如漆，靈活多變。


and the characteristics of other art such as Hung gar is body hard hand hard
such as in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUXIRpv2h0



Most doesnt understand the Yik Kam's art because they dont have the transmission of the Body soft finger tip hard key.

And to get to the Body soft, one needs the Emei 12 Zhuang training to attain.



Yik kam went to Cho family and implant the Body soft finger tip hard concept to transform the Cho's art without have to change the shape or the style the Cho has learned.




So, the core of Cho family art is Body Soft finger tip hard, and that can be done in any external shape. However, today, these information are fade away, most doesnt know this even they still doing the sets from the Cho family but in fact they are no longer doing Yik Kam's art.



and when the SLT is done different then Body Soft finger tip hard, it is no longer SLT...
It becomes white crane if it was practice with the body hard hand soft concept. it becomes Hung gar or other southern chinese art if it was done with body hard hand hard.

Thus, just having the sets or copying the move of Yik Kam arts doesnt make it Yik Kam's art.

Why is it the needs of body soft finger tip hard?

because it is a close body art which required every inch of the body to issue force instead of rock solid to crush or iron vest type....etc. again that is the Emei DNA the snake body of the SLT.



The whole SLT set is just a vehicle to transform one into a Body soft finger tip hard Boomerang or sickle which cut every side forward and back ward.



Robert,

my favorite song and lyrics these days for describe my journey studying the art of Yik Kam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkoX8CmHXew




Just some thoughts.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Hendrik,

Firstly a caveat – I am not a Cho Gar Hang Jia. My knowledge comes primarily from interactions with Por Suk, Ku Choi Wah, Tony Yap and others from Cho Onn's lineage in Malaysia.

What you described; soft body hard fingers concept is manifested in many forms throughout various systems.

In White Crane, we say “Body like willow, hands like bullets”, since “bullets” is used, this idiom must have been introduced during Qing Chou.

“Needles in cotton” is another widespread expression of the same concept.

Some Fukien lines of White Crane, when talking about “7 Steps Sanchin” also use “7 steps needles” interchangeably. The latter terminology now only found amongst the older Fukien Pek Hok folks.

The Hung Gar Tit Sin you linked, imho, might not be best for evaluation.

In Singapore and Malaysia, back in the 60s & 70s, Hung Gar folks do a form known as “Kong Yau Kuen” or “Hard Soft Fists”. I am trying to shoot that form and post it. Apparently, this form is really rare these days.

As far as Yik Kam and his days in Cho Gar is concerned, I hear diverse versions from various quarters and really, find it hard to make any head or tail.

Talking to Por Suk, I learned that not only CLF and Hung Gar were taught during that time period in Cho Gar. Mok Gar, Chan Gar and even Lor Gar were routine.

Some of these lasted until present time in Poon Yu; many of the old skill sets are extant. Their version of “Fu Hok”, to me, is fascinating showing many features of “old Shaolin hands”.

Your White Crane + Emei source; I am really curious to look at old text pointing to this.

Maybe, you could show me when we get the opportunity to meet in the near future.

My knowledge of Emei is superficial but I do know a thing or 2 about White Crane.

Regards.

[TenTigers]

Hendrick, I must concur with Eric on Hung Kuen. People see one aspect and judge the whole by it. They see a person demonstrate Tiet Sien Kuen or the tension and hard methods and think that is the whole of Hung-Ga, when it is only one aspect.
Also depending on who is demonstrating.
Hard as Iron, Soft as Thread, Iron Bar wrapped in Cotton, and the manifestations of the twelve bridges are all soft contained within hard and hard contained within soft.
I ride a motorcycle. I brought it in to the shop for repairs. When I was there, I asked the mechanic,who was an expert in his field, if there were resources so I could do basic repair and maintenance on my bike.
(clutch adjustments,carburetor, etc)
He looked at me and answered,"I don't teach Kung-Fu."

[chusauli]

Your White Crane + Emei source; I am really curious to look at old text pointing to this.

Maybe, you could show me when we get the opportunity to meet in the near future.

My knowledge of Emei is superficial but I do know a thing or 2 about White Crane.

Regards.

Hi Eric,

You can see the Emei 12 Zhuang from Wu Xinliang's "Emei Martial Arts" set of VCDs.

Volume 3 of the VCD series is Emei Twelve Stakes (Standing Methods) (Emei Shi Er Zhuang, the famous set of standing exercises, combining movements with specific breathing).

When I first saw Hendrik's Siu Lien Tao set, it looked much like older Futshan WCK...when he shared the Kuen Kuit with me, I could see it was of quality teachings.

When I researched old books on Emei Shi Er Zhuang, I saw a lot of the similarities between the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao.

Of course, WCK has much similarities with Fujian Bai He. A look at the White Crane 5 element hands, and one can see immediate correspondences. You are too humble of your White Crane knowledge! I really like your Ba Bu Lian - would love to learn that from you!

Best regards,

[Hendrik]

Hendrick, I must concur with Eric on Hung Kuen.

People see one aspect and judge the whole by it. They see a person demonstrate Tiet Sien Kuen or the tension and hard methods and think that is the whole of Hung-Ga, when it is only one aspect.


Also depending on who is demonstrating.

Hard as Iron, Soft as Thread, Iron Bar wrapped in Cotton, and the manifestations of the twelve bridges are all soft contained within hard and hard contained within soft.



Ten Tiger,


For discussion,

You are correct on the description such as Iron Bar wrapped in Cotton, Body like willow, hands like bullets.....

See, at one point in my life I also see and think like you ; not until my sifus and older friends reveal to me those are too general a description and show me from the view of open the 8 special medirians.... Life changes after seeing that.


The cultivation process is a big thing. missing a split of hair missing 10000 miles.




for those who is interested in what I exactly refer to , look at the following clip on the dancer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znZxS0WqDk8&feature=related

The body is soft and the sword is sharp. That is what I am refering to.

and to get there, the SLT passed down by Yik Kam is using the Emei 12 zhuang's technology.



Iron wire will not get one into the above state, that is certain and a reality . Be interm of machanics or Qi cultivation.

[Hendrik]

As far as Yik Kam and his days in Cho Gar is concerned, I hear diverse versions from various quarters and really, find it hard to make any head or tail.

Talking to Por Suk, I learned that not only CLF and Hung Gar were taught during that time period in Cho Gar. Mok Gar, Chan Gar and even Lor Gar were routine.

I am actually expected that due to the involvement of Cho family with the Taiping Uprising.

also, even the same Cho student will have different way of doing their art.

This is due to I have seen family trees of the art transmission within Cho family, it is a fact that even between siheng dai not all transmission is the same. Siheng doesnt by default get the transmission. That is a fact.

IE: even if one got the set but without the Kuen kuit one's art will be different then the one have both the set and kuen kuit. not to mention, there are so many different sets which different people train in different set.







Some of these lasted until present time in Poon Yu; many of the old skill sets are extant. Their version of “Fu Hok”, to me, is fascinating showing many features of “old Shaolin hands”.


One can look at the Fu hok set as old Shao lin hands, however one could also related it to the emei 12 zhuang's contents when one using it to cultivate the spine or the Du medirians..... The fun part is every level one get deeper one sees different things and thus needs more indepth components to deal with a deeper level of the art.





Your White Crane + Emei source; I am really curious to look at old text pointing to this.

Maybe, you could show me when we get the opportunity to meet in the near future.


As Robert and others from my lineage has seen it. it is not a secret, in fact it is very basic stuffs. But that basic make the training very different.


If Poh Suk had shared his SLT Kuen kuit with you, if it is the same version of Kuen kuit I have, then lay both the Emei 12 Zhuang Kuen kuit with the SLT Kuen Kuit, one noticed the similarities....

[TenTigers]

"Iron wire will not get one into the above state, that is certain and a reality . Be interm of machanics or Qi cultivation. "

In the Tiet Sien Kuen, it contains a hidden meaning,'Gong noi yao Yau, Yau noi yao Gong'- "softness concealed in hard, hardness concealed in soft." But, "Gong Yau bing Gin"- "Hard and Soft walk hand in hand"-To the untrained eye, all they see is the hard. It depends on how you were taught, what your understanding is, and how it is played.
My exposure to WCK is limited, and my knowledge on Ngoh Mei is next to nil.
I do know a bit more about Hung Kuen, but I am still learning and discovering.
So as far as WCK goes, I differ to you on those matters. But, out of curiosity,
What is your experience with Hung Kuen, and more specifically, the sup yi kiu-sao and the Tiet Sien Kuen?

[Hendrik]

In the Tiet Sien Kuen, it contains a hidden meaning,'Gong noi yao Yau, Yau noi yao Gong'- "softness concealed in hard, hardness concealed in soft." But, "Gong Yau bing Gin"- "Hard and Soft walk hand in hand"-To the untrained eye, all they see is the hard. It depends on how you were taught, what your understanding is, and how it is played.


For me, it is the nature of the art which is making a different. How one were taught, what is one's understanding is, and how it is played matter but it doesnt change the corse.

IE: throwing a spear is not throwing a boomerang.

Sure, how one were taught ,what is one's understanding is, and how it is played
make a different in either Throwing a spear or boomerang.

However, no matter how one throw a boomerang will not become a spear.

and one cant claim what one throw is either or could be a boomerang or a spear But dont know is it a boomerang or spear.





My exposure to WCK is limited, and my knowledge on Ngoh Mei is next to nil.
I do know a bit more about Hung Kuen, but I am still learning and discovering.

So as far as WCK goes, I differ to you on those matters.

But, out of curiosity,
What is your experience with Hung Kuen, and more specifically, the sup yi kiu-sao and the Tiet Sien Kuen?



I dont practice Hung Kuen, however, knowing the nature of the force generation of Yee Chuan, Taiji, Emei 12 Zhuang, and YIK Kam's SLT.

Hung Kuen is certainly not Yee Chuan, Taiji, Emei 12 Zhuang, and Yik Kam's SLT. That is certain.

read the Iron wire set Kuen Po you will see its nature there.
and disregard how one practice Iron wire it cant develop the nature of Yee Chuan...etc.
or become the Snake slide Cocoon moves of the Emei 12 Zhuang or the One spontaneous let it be of Yik Kam SLT.

Those are different stuffs. it is not the external shape, it is all about how the body is transform , condition, and develop into. it is what it has become after practice a certain type of Kung which is the core of that art.



Usually, people dont know these because there are serious stuffs they are missing and never aware of. They go take Taiji class, they take Yee Chuan class , they take Xing Yi class, they takes WCK class...

But then when they punch they punch with exactly the same mechanism. and then they speculate All arts are the same. oh Xiying is just that five strikes and WCK has it too. Taiji is doing things slowly and we do SLT slowly and thus we are the same.....etc. all kind of speculation.

That is because they have not expose to what the nature of the art is and not train for the power generation of the particular art but using their own habitual way of generating power and all the art they learn are just a repeating external routine. They never really learn the art.

Then, Somedays, because they though "ah certain move in other art is great, so they mimic it in their set. " and think, "Oh I got it too....."


The world has been running like this for a long time.


Just some thoughts.

[chusauli]

"Iron wire will not get one into the above state, that is certain and a reality . Be interm of machanics or Qi cultivation. "

In the Tiet Sien Kuen, it contains a hidden meaning,'Gong noi yao Yau, Yau noi yao Gong'- "softness concealed in hard, hardness concealed in soft." But, "Gong Yau bing Gin"- "Hard and Soft walk hand in hand"-To the untrained eye, all they see is the hard. It depends on how you were taught, what your understanding is, and how it is played.
My exposure to WCK is limited, and my knowledge on Ngoh Mei is next to nil.
I do know a bit more about Hung Kuen, but I am still learning and discovering.
So as far as WCK goes, I differ to you on those matters. But, out of curiosity,
What is your experience with Hung Kuen, and more specifically, the sup yi kiu-sao and the Tiet Sien Kuen?

Rik,

I know a little bit about Hung Kuen, but I will say that Hung Kuen's Tiet Sien Kuen gives one many a bad habit with its overemphasis on hardness and breaking energy flow with pauses. It is not the constant energy flow as you see in WCK, or the energy taught in many Nei Jia. Compare it with SPM, and you know many gaps in the art. And as far as the Sup Yee Ji Kiu Sao go, unfortunately, more of it is lip service. Hung Ga Kuen is more in the realm of the muscular power, as opposed to the soft, structure force of WCK. Its no offence, and not that Hung Kuen is not a great art, but we are speaking of different things here.

WCK's energy is like pumping without release. Hung Kuen is like pumping with a hand pump and having to stop and rest...I hope this analogy is clear....

[TenTigers]

Hung Kuen's Tiet Sien Kuen gives one many a bad habit with its overemphasis on hardness and breaking energy flow with pauses. It is not the constant energy flow as you see in WCK, or the energy taught in many Nei Jia. Compare it with SPM, and you know many gaps in the art."

I have seen it performed that way, and that is also how I was originally taught.
But..It can also be played with a more constant energy flow, where the pauses are not abrupt, but merely a lessening and moving to go from one transition to another, without break. (Is it better? More refined? Is it even correct for that matter? Who knows?Leung Guan (Tiet Kiu-Saam)Wong Kei-Ying, Wong Fei-Hung, etc are all dead, and many generations have passed.
Even in WCK there is break between sections of SNT, or CK, or BJ. Breaks before and after huen sao, etc. In SPM, there are breaks, but it can be played without breaks. Sup Bot Dim has no breaks when it is played correctly. Sam Bo Ging also has no breaks when it is played in that manner.(this is our method-playing the set differently, each way, emphasizes a different aspect of the hand)

"And as far as the Sup Yee Ji Kiu Sao go, unfortunately, more of it is lip service."

True. Personally, I feel it was originally meant just as an attempt to put into words, to clarify what should be taught and felt through direct transmission. The words got in the way.
When you ask my teacher which bridge is which, he responds,
"I have no idea. My hand just moves"
But people love to quote it.
My reason for mentioning it is to show that the hand has many ways to move and to respond to energy.
Each method can be played many ways-long short, hard, soft, springy,sticky, etc. There is no one single way that is "correct."
Unfortunately, many Hung-Ga players like to write articles, and quote the sup yi kiu sao and link it to specific movements within TSK; "This is sinking.." etc -rather than saying,"This can be considered one method of applying the concept of sinking.."

"Hung Ga Kuen is more in the realm of the muscular power, as opposed to the soft, structure force of WCK. Its no offence, and not that Hung Kuen is not a great art, but we are speaking of different things here."

I see this in the long bridge large horse type stuff. I do not see this in the short bridge, small horse techniques within the system, where I see a great deal of soft, structural force being played.

WCK's energy is like pumping without release. Hung Kuen is like pumping with a hand pump and having to stop and rest...I hope this analogy is clear....

again, I see this with the large, gross, power movements-"One breath, one strike"
But it is not evident within the short hand techniques of Hung Kuen in my experience.

I am not arguing that it is the same. Just saying that things aren't black and white.

[TenTigers]

-and...I may be completely wrong.
But, when I met Lam Jo, his hands were like that, and he seems to know what he's doing...

[Hendrik]

-and...I may be completely wrong.



mind is a strange thing. It decived one and imprison one but one always trust it.


It is not about right or wrong, it is about describe thing as it is. However, until one sees what it is one cant describe what it is.

[TenTigers]

basically, you have blind men checking out the elephant. One feels the leg and says it's a tree. One feels the trunk and says it's a snake, one feels the body and says it's a wall. Each man is convinced by their experience of the elephant, that they know the truth.

[Hendrik]

basically, you have blind men checking out the elephant. One feels the leg and says it's a tree. One feels the trunk and says it's a snake, one feels the body and says it's a wall. Each man is convinced by their experience of the elephant, that they know the truth.


You know, I once am exactly thinking like you until I met one of my sifu who straighten me out.

after that I have no doubt what is what.
Certainly, there is a different between no doubt and attain the full kung fu.

These days, most people talks about IMA, Zen, Dao....etc but mostly fuzzy and unclear.
In Chinese that is called Ning Mo liang Ke or fuzzy and both could be correct . that is a confusion state.

One cant even starts a journey this way. so, how could one expect to have attainment?


In Chinese, it said one needs to find the AAN Xin Lik Min Tze Tsu or the place one can settle one's heart and stood one's life. Until then one is still searching and no progress can be experted.

While one has not find the AAN Xin Lik Min Tze Tsu one is still a wandering person.



In the Six patriach Sutra, it said " Without seeing one's original face, learning all the methods /Dharma is useless." This is because one doesnt know what one is getting into. and everything looks the same.

[TenTigers]

You know, I once am exactly thinking like you until I met one of my sifu who straighten me out.

after that I have no doubt what is what.
.

yes, but how do you know
you know what you know?
You can know you don't know,
you can not know you don't know,
you can know you know,
you can not know you know.
you know?:p

[TenTigers]

“If I don't know I don't know, I think I know.
If I don't know I know I know, I think I don't know.”

-R.D. Laing

[Hendrik]

yes, but how do you know
you know what you know?
You can know you don't know,
you can not know you don't know,
you can know you know,
you can not know you know.
you know?:p


Do you know when do you need to go to bath room for a pee?

I know when I need to go and I dont have to think. :D

[Hendrik]

“If I don't know I don't know, I think I know.
If I don't know I know I know, I think I don't know.”

-R.D. Laing



Didnt the western sage teaches " surrender , Let Go and Let God?"

[TenTigers]

I know when I need to go and I dont have to think. :D

"Some come here to sit and think..."

y'all know the rest.:D

[TenTigers]

Didnt the western sage teaches " surrender , Let Go and Let God?"
um, no. That was Alcoholics Anonymous..not exactly sagely advice, but good nonetheless.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


A small reply as I am officially on forever lurk mode these days hahaha......

***

Soft and Hard has NOTHING to do with tension sets or just linking moves for more flow. This is everything to do with Qi cultivation. See, there is a point when the Zheng Qi penetrates into the Bone Marrow which creates the classic: Rou Jing or within soft carries the hard. Once you go thru this process you will know what the classic means regarding Soft Body & Hard!

It is a different form of cultivation. Different systems have their terms for this, as this is not unique to Yik Kam teaching, but the most common is Taiji and Taiji calls this achieved state:

Essential hardness of the bones!


***

The so-called Boomerang effect of SLT, Sifu Hendrik is talking about, is all about Momentum!!! Yes, Momentum! The return trip must not be choppy but rather have a continuous flow to it.

Ex: The first action you are taught in WC is typcally the lin wan choi punching. Well, most will teach you to punch out and then drop down and then the next punch comes out as the other pulls back.

This is choppy!

Boomerang Ex: The punch needs to have a small or micro circles/arc at the end just before returning back home. This micro circle will make sure the energy flow is not broken and you will not lose precious momentum.

How do you learn this? Snake Qi process! Why? Energy does not flow around hard edges or lines. There is roundness contained within the movements even if it is not noticeable to the outside eye.

***

See, these aspects are not and cannot be cultivate without the Snake component or artificially thru trying to copy. I have never learned 1 Form or Set from Yik Kam art but I have been quite fortunate to study the internal process of this special system. If you think you can artificially duplicate this stuff I would say think again. :eek:

The micro joint cycling and Snake Sliding has one thing that must be kept in mind! That is the frequency that is produces within the body. Each method or art has a certain frequency it produces with these practices. Wing Chun's internal frequency matches the frequency of Emei Snake Qigong. When I trained with the Emei Gatekeeper I was very lucky to experience the same frequency.

This frequency is not duplicated in Taiji, Hsing Yi, Hung Gar, South Mantis etc... NOPE! One of Lum Sang's disciples came with me to train with Fu Wei Zhong and also notice the different frequency. This is the dna signature of internal flow each art has going on!

***

Basically, the platform of Wing Chun is designed to return the body to the Natural State and Resonance. It is a form of Natural State Boxing. How it achieves the Natural State and Frequency is what makes each art unique! Hendrik never sat me down and specifically taught me this stuff! He knows these qualities will surface from proper practice of the Snake aspects of Yik Kam and this is why Wing Chun was a new paradigm in Chinese boxing technology! It is rooted in two giants of chinese martial and healing arts. Fujian Crane and Emei Snake! """Snake & Crane"""


I have to run!!! Back to lurk mode!


:)


Peace,

[Hendrik]

Jim,

Thanks for sharing your experience with Yik Kam's art.

It is a realization art similar to the Chinese IMA, thus, it is rather difficult to be comprehend. It is like before one knows how the second floor of the mall looks like, one needs to get into the elevator, push the floor intended to get to, then dont think and wait, then, when arrived at the second floor, the door open, and one right a way see how the second floor looks like without a slightly guessing and know without a doubt. it is what it is. That is what I try to communicate with Ten tigers.

Technology process is similar to the elevator. One doesnt guess or think about the second floor of the mall one has never been to. one uses the technology process to get to the second floor. and the second floor will reveal if the technology is proper.


Just to share, and for your reference if you are a member of Yik Kam lineage,
I did the same with what in Yik Kam's legend told with Jim. Since he already knows WCK from various different lineage of WCK. There is no need for him to learn the Yik Kam SLT form to get start but to give him keys of Yik Kam SLT form and that is first to open up his medirians area or open up his blind spot in his body, and then activate the snake slide cocoon moves, to get him into the Body soft point of contact hard training track. then the boomerang will comes naturally.
Certainly, there are deeper level one will get into. however, even at the basic level the body handling, power generation.... has travel a different corse.

There is no secret there is no Qi blast but a different way of training and it is not that special either for those who really did TCMA IMA.


On the other hand, if, without lead Jim to the resonance and the freequency or the state, but feed him with form over form, set over set, and lots of kuen kuit saying. That is not going to do the job but create confusion; and doubt and meaningless without live in the art but mimicing something.

It is after one sees the "original face" via the process, then the set and different move comes to live or means something because the sets are desgined for one to investigate different type of possibility. and then only after that the Kuen kuit is meaningfull. Because the Kuen kuit is use to settle one's direction when one face cross road in the training.

Thus, there is no doubt. and thus that is called " entering the door in the old time. "entering the door " doesnt mean one attain the deep kung fu, nope , still far away. But entering the door means one knows the direction.

This is the type of quantitative /qualitative criterions one needs to have in the old time.


But then, not everyone is entering the door. because some might only interested in learning some application or some might never entering the door because they dont havet the neccesary information or teaching........lots of things...

[chusauli]

“If I don't know I don't know, I think I know.
If I don't know I know I know, I think I don't know.”

-R.D. Laing

Rik,

Regarding the Blind Man and the elephant quote - the man who can see can certainly see the whole elephant.

And as for RD Laing's quote above, I have two for you:

"Don't put Descartes before the Source"

and

"Psychoanalysis - that is the problem!"

LOL!

[TenTigers]

Rik,


"Don't put Descartes before the Source"



:D

“Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.”

[Hendrik]

In depth rational discussion is not possible since long time ago.....

[TenTigers]

In depth rational discussion is not possible since long time ago.....
Have you considered medication?
What were the symptoms leading up to your illness?
Was there a sudden trauma to the head? Did you fall?
Did you attend many Gratefull Dead or Pink Floyd concerts?
Did you used to hang out at Studio 54, CBGB'S, or the Mudd Club?
Ever do whippitz, or locker room? How about amyl poppers?
Did you used to hold your breath as a child? As an adult?
Do you spend alot of time on online Martial Arts forums, having arguments with idiots?
all these can contribute to dain bramage.

[Eric Ling]

Before I go any further, I just want to say:-

1. I am not a Wing Chunner and therefore have no business talking WCK here – translated; I don’t know enough about this subject to make any useful comment. At best, all I got is “working” knowledge from an academic perspective.
2. My English is inadequate – I find it hard to really go into subtleness and sometimes, due to my inability to clearly put words to thought, I end up misleading and missing the point I really want to make.
3. I am not aligned to any WCK in particular. Around here, I’ll work with anyone indiscriminately; I am prepared to listen to anyone who is willing to talk, mainly from an interest of discovering more.

Having said that, I do apply some “critical” thinking to stuff I hear, so it’s not all absorbing without discernment.

And very frequently, I hear conflicting versions of a same story and really there’s no way to make any judgment call.

Common sense is luxury when dealing with histories – things don’t always happen in a “common” manner.

“Truth is stranger than fiction” is an apt phrase here, if my experience is anything to go by.

The one thing I have learnt these years when dealing with anything Chinese is that, things are never really straight. If I were to, at random, pick up 5 books dealing in the same CKF topic from my personal library, chances are that I’ll be presented with 5 conflicting dimensions.

To look for a trend, like we say in Engineering, is to join dots to get a broken picture when it comes to CKF.

There are so much “overlapping” in principles and concepts through the ages that it’s simply not possible to say what is what.

I often think that the only responsible thing to do is to present as many views as possible without prejudice.

Hendrik, I was hoping for specifically defined kuits from Yik Kam in your possession to understand your dedication to the Emei/White Crane equals WCK stand.

Something that is as clear as “black writing on white paper” if I may.

Kuits from Por Suk, Choi Choy Wah, Cho Onn’s daughter and son-in-law, Poon Yu Clan Association in Penang, Ban Chung Wing Chun in Kuala Lumpur and even Fukien White Crane in Selangor are not specific when talking about the origin of Yik Kam’s WCK.

And don’t get me wrong, I am not here to prove or disprove anything.

I, for one, REALLY understand that explain any style or system, you got to spend many “cold winters” to get the “flower”.

I will ,in all probability, never understand what you’re trying to illustrate unless and until I spend relevant time in picking up Cho Gar – something that might be too late at this point in my life.

And in the same token, to compare any 2 systems meaningfully, you must be qualified in both, surface level understanding is a waste of time and cause many of the conflicts that you see so much these days within families.

You see what you see and I see what I see – nobody can help that, not after spending 30 plus years “pounding and grinding” in one system in my case.

When I look at Cho Gar, I am sure I am more sensitized to “Crane” elements because of my background. And I am not talking about techniques only here; I am talking the whole works – generation of power, release, recoil and flow. Elements that exclusively make up crane boxing.

To me, how you do it internally must be manifested in your deliveries of every step and move when fighting a live opponent who is not going to co-operate with you.

I don’t see why I want to train one way “internally” and express it in another manner “externally”.

Here is where I find talking in forum very limited; my “internal” experience is all about “feel” and how do you convey that? With me and my wanting English, I will fumble and produce more mess.

Even works by some qualified wordsmiths and scribes are futile for those really looking for the “truth”.

For me, I am very tactile. I touch hands.

Which is why I stopped discussing in forums these days; they are good for discussions up till a level and then beyond that, you simply cannot do a good job in sharing without having hands-on communications.

And my blog is really nothing more than just sharing documented experiences of those who walked before us.

I know you love the arts, or more importantly, the truth in the arts. These last few years through interacting with you and reading your thoughts, I understand what a lonely path this must be for you.

Maybe you should take your own advice – let go, let GOD.

Let’s keep laughing when we journey through Jiang Hu.

Warmest Regards to all participating in this thread.

Ps....only reason I am talking here is because the youtube clip linked comes from me and uploaded by one of my associates here in Malaysia.

[Hendrik]

Eric,





Hendrik, I was hoping for specifically defined kuits from Yik Kam in your possession to understand your dedication to the Emei/White Crane equals WCK stand.

Something that is as clear as “black writing on white paper” if I may.


Kuits from Por Suk, Choi Choy Wah, Cho Onn’s daughter and son-in-law, Poon Yu Clan Association in Penang, Ban Chung Wing Chun in Kuala Lumpur and even Fukien White Crane in Selangor are not specific when talking about the origin of Yik Kam’s WCK.






For others, I cant speak for them.


From my sifu, I have seen my sifu's written transmission family trees of SLT by Yik Kam within the Cho family.


Starts with Miu Shun created SLT with his art and Ng Mui's White Crane. In Miu Shun's dead bed Miu Told Yim Wing Chun's father that what he taught Yim Yee Kung is not Ng Mui's White crane but his own creation.... Yik kam ...... etc






As for the black writing on white paper,



Is WCK as a whole not only Yik Kam's art related to Emei 12 zhuang, try this article from the Emei 12 Zhuang site by Jim.

http://www.emeiqigong.us/articles/articles.html

Emei will not endose it if Jim is talking garbage. IMHO.





As for Kuen kuit you request, To be fair, let's use a third party kuen kuit, so I am not guilty of making it up.

if you post the Kuen Kuit of the First section of the SLT.

Since I happen to know there are at least two versions of SLT Kuen kuit in SEA Cho family, One is pre CLF influence and One is post CLF influence.

I would help pointing out which version is your kuen kuit, whether is there miss writting or missing term , and where the Emei 12 Zhuang comes into play based on the kuen kuit you post.




BTW

The art is called SLT in that writting I have seen, not WCK, not SNT.

the name is Little training instead of Little Idea,

Little Idea is the trademark of GM IP Man,

also, there are other Gm Ip Man signature which Sifu Robert Chu can tell you all about it.

With all the signature we can trace lots of things.








And in the same token, to compare any 2 systems meaningfully, you must be qualified in both, surface level understanding is a waste of time and cause many of the conflicts that you see so much these days within families.



For me,

Technical research is technical research. if it is surface then it is not technical research. As you can see in Jim's article posted in Emei site, It goes direct to the Gate Keeper of Emei, that is how far Jim have gone, he support the expense, and never make one cents out of it. but sharing his finding publicly.


I would not link this type of activity to conflicts but instead it is a contribution which benifit everyone.

In fact, I would be very happy to see others doing research so that I can learn from them. there are plenty of things could be research into.
if they are right, I go with them, if they are wrong I know what not to follow. either way is benificial.




Best Regards

[Vajramusti]

Handrik- You do lots of work-many of your comments on history are interesting but also confusing.The problems are in part that 1. You don't always translate the Chinese texts and references 2. or pinpoint the source 3. readers cannot be expected to jump back and forth on all the history related threads over time. 4. I don't always have a problem with fractured English but things can have different meanings depending on how you spell them..."fleet" ? or "freed"? also little lineage boosting and subjective pre suppositions can creep in-Jim's interview with the emei master is interesting but he smuggles in "Fung" and gu lo.The cart gets overloaded with baggage.
We still seem to have lineage stories rather than history. I think that the attempts at outlining history still is interesting.

Given my classical Indian background outside of wing chun- many of the ideas including from Emei seem to be extensions of what happened in the Buddhist transmission to China. Emei is an early transmission center.The results in energy control and development, the balancing and the fusions-snake and crane etc can be independently confirmable and some of it has been at different times...but when we get into chronology there can be confusion.

Ip man was not a historian... but his fusion and integration of key concepts remain awesome even without the history and can be substantially confirmed..they have already been smuggled in into some different versions of wing chun with lineage histories added on to the baggage.
Not being patronizing _you have lots of interesting and insightful hard work but organization and clarity can help readers.

Regards,

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

The problems are in part that
1. You don't always translate the Chinese texts and references
2. or pinpoint the source
3. readers cannot be expected to jump back and forth on all the history related threads over time.

4. I don't always have a problem with fractured English but things can have different meanings depending on how you spell them..."fleet" ? or "freed"?


5, also little lineage boosting and subjective pre suppositions can creep in-Jim's interview with the emei master is interesting but he smuggles in "Fung" and gu lo.The cart gets overloaded with baggage.

We still seem to have lineage stories rather than history. I think that the attempts at outlining history still is interesting.


Joy,

Great Comments, I am sure there always room to zoom in for more details.

1 and 2, There is massive informations, my ideas of sharing here is just to leave a trace so that those who really study WCK as the third party would know something exist.

and also, I the third party such as a university contact me certainly I will asist them to the most details.


3, As you know, I myself had spend 30 years. Even Robert who is very close to me have a difficult time to follow me because of the nature of zoom in an out the history and technical.


4, Great input, I am actually sneaking from my busy schedule to do posting here so I type fast and makes lots of erro. . So, if there is anything un clear please ask me to clarify.


5, As we see, we all have a different way of view things, presenting.....





Given my classical Indian background outside of wing chun- many of the ideas including from Emei seem to be extensions of what happened in the Buddhist transmission to China.

Emei is an early transmission center.

The results in energy control and development, the balancing and the fusions-snake and crane etc can be independently confirmable and some of it has been at different times...but when we get into chronology there can be confusion.

Great ideas.
I consider I am too old now. I have spend my 30 years, I realy hope some one in the young generation picks up this and continous on.




Thanks for your sharing as usual!

[Eric Ling]

:) I think I’ve overstayed my welcome here; time to make my exit.

Hendrik,

I am going to post related materials about Cho Gar here (http://eric88ling.wordpress.com/).

As for the kuits, I am waiting for the green light for the various owners to put them up publicly.

Por Suk and some folks from Ban Chun Cho Gar Wing Chun have been invited to a Poon Yu reunion on the mainland. I was invited but had to decline because of work commitments here.

I tried calling him but it doesn’t look like his roaming service is working in China.

I will update in my blog.

Warmest Regards.

[TenTigers]

stick around, Eric! This forum needs people like you who are maintaining the integrity of TCMA.
(can I tempt you with a carlsburg?)

[Eric Ling]

Hi Ten,

Thanks.

You, to me, are one of the few true heroes left in Jiang Hu today.

Carlsberg?

If ever I am in your neighbourhood …. I will take you on.

Carlsberg and some “kiu sau” maybe hahaha…..


Warmest Regards.

[Vajramusti]

I have appreciated your presence. I hope that you don't leave.
I hope that you can stay and ignore the junky posts.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

:) I think I’ve overstayed my welcome here; time to make my exit.

Hendrik,

I am going to post related materials about Cho Gar here (http://eric88ling.wordpress.com/).

As for the kuits, I am waiting for the green light for the various owners to put them up publicly.

Por Suk and some folks from Ban Chun Cho Gar Wing Chun have been invited to a Poon Yu reunion on the mainland. I was invited but had to decline because of work commitments here.

I tried calling him but it doesn’t look like his roaming service is working in China.

I will update in my blog.

Warmest Regards.


Eric,

Good Job!

Please let the public know when you have post the Kuit of SLT up there.

Aslo, if you could, post the Emei 12 Zhuang's Small letter Zhuang or Siau Tze Zhuang clip there as a reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

It is the time to let the world see how SLT and Emei 12 zhuang Link and benifit the practitioners.




And, for those who is practicing indepth Yik kam's SLT with the Kuen kuit, you dont need me.


As Eric is posting all those Kuen kuits of SLT and the Emei Kuits in a location.
My mission as a messenger is completed.

just pay serious attention to both the SLT kuit and Emei 12 Zhuang make sure you understand every kuit well step by step. one will see the link. also, pay attention to the practice of Emei Siau Tze zhuang.

and one always can use the Emei kuit to explain the SLT Kuit so one dont have to guess or being fuzzy, Yes, get to the bottom clarity. otherwise one cant train the detail. and if one cant train the detail one cant attain the kung fu.


See how it will benifit your practice for yourself after you understood every kuit of SLT.

There is no secret but to clearly understand the basic components.




Since I lead you here, I have the responsible to also cation you that these are advance art from Buddhism.

so, Be careful how you are using this art and its technics. The world is a causal world one pays for what one has done. As in Chinese Buddhism, it says, if you kill some one some one will kill you. "

So, use it only to benifit others positively; then others will benifit you positively. That is the Law of Karma and Law of Attraction.

I pray that you all create good karma and live in peace and prosper.











BTW. the author of the Emei 12 zhuang book you link there is who Jim and Russell had visited.

also, it will be great if you can make the Emei 12 Zhuang book page larger . it is stressing the eyes currently.

Thanks!


Best Regards
Hendrik

[TenTigers]

Hi Ten,

Thanks.

You, to me, are one of the few true heroes left in Jiang Hu today.

Carlsberg?

If ever I am in your neighbourhood …. I will take you on.

Carlsberg and some “kiu sau” maybe hahaha…..


Warmest Regards.

I am truly honored by your comment. I will try to live up to it.

[chusauli]

I always find the reference of martial arts as "Jiang Hu" to be somewhat cheesy and it is more of a pulp fiction term. It is more associated with "Jiang Hu Zei" - Rivers and Lakes Bandits.

We should be called "Wu Lin/Mo Lum" - the martial world.

The nuance is too subtle for some.

Its like calling someone in medicine a "Lang Zhong" versus calling someone "Yi Lin" or "Xing Lin".

Don't be a Jiang Hu Zei, be a Wu Lin Jia.

LOL!

[Hendrik]

I always find the reference of martial arts as "Jiang Hu" to be somewhat cheesy and it is more of a pulp fiction term. It is more associated with "Jiang Hu Zei" - Rivers and Lakes Bandits.

We should be called "Wu Lin/Mo Lum" - the martial world.

The nuance is too subtle for some.

Its like calling someone in medicine a "Lang Zhong" versus calling someone "Yi Lin" or "Xing Lin".

Don't be a Jiang Hu Zei, be a Wu Lin Jia.

LOL!



Robert,

Since Eric is posting those kuits, and clips....etc

My mission as a messenger has completed.
What I have learn from Yik Kam's kuit and Cho family ancestors is now return back.



as the song lyrics of crouching tiger hidden dragon,

"If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountain disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you stay. " ----

So the kuits of SLT are going to stay.











As you know, since I have become the disciple of Ven Hsuan Hua, my heart is no longer in the martial art world.


Be it Wulin or Jiang Hu, everyone has their karma, everyone lives by their karma.


I choose to go to the western paradise instead.

if my memory serve, in 1850 those revolutionist from the Red boat use the Western paradise them to refer to Kwang Xi?


Well, this is 2009, mine western paradise is define as the following

http://www.56.com/u76/v_MjIxMjUwMjU.html

Try it you might like it.



So longer everyone.

[chusauli]

Hendrik,

Eric Ling is a treasure and hero to the martial world today. His clips and open personality has encouraged many a master to openly share their art through many clips. It is an unparalleled achievement.

I saw he put up the rare book on Emei 12 Zhuang. It is a legacy for practitioners to study and further investigate the origins of Wing Chun Kuen. Thank you Eric!

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Eric Ling is a treasure and hero to the martial world today. His clips and open personality has encouraged many a master to openly share their art through many clips. It is an unparalleled achievement.

I saw he put up the rare book on Emei 12 Zhuang. It is a legacy for practitioners to study and further investigate the origins of Wing Chun Kuen. Thank you Eric!



Roobert,

Yup. I agree with you.

Best Regards

[Hendrik]

Eric,

if you like to use this one for Siau Tze Zhuang, Start 4.18/829.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

Russell has personally consulted the Emei Gate Keeper Gm Fu on the Siau Tze Zhuang of the 12 Post.


Best Regards
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

For information.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=948150&postcount=10

[Hendrik]

Eric,



Just want to add that “12 Posts Qiqong” is not Emei exclusive, many other sects do something similar and if you zoom in, you are going to find much overlapping and possibly, all related somehow.

IMHO,

"This not Emei exclusive" you mention, need to be define.

Emei 12 Zhuang is an older system from Song Dynasty. Its documents as I know is kept in the Chinese Beijing Museum as for today, that is the position of this Emei art, Not just Qigong but a full internal cultivation system, in China's internal /healling/ martial art development history.
It is a Shen Kung.



This is one of the oldest mother of TCMA IMA.



As the ancient sayings says, missed a fraction of an inch lost a thousand mile.
One needs to be extremely careful when get into the internal cultivation realm.



So, my opinion is since we are going to do something for the ancestors, let's doing it in a very carefully, detail, and proper way so that the ancestors can rest in peace. :D




Best Regards
Hendrik

[Eric Ling]

Hendrik,

This will be the last post here in this forum.

Again let me stress a few things:-

• I am not going to debate with you on Emei and Cho Gar.
• I am simply presenting what I have collected and making a few comments along the way. Comments that I am very careful with so as not to antagonize the Ancestors like you said.
• Wing Chun is not my immediate scope of study. I am more pre-occupied with putting together my White Crane story and towards that end; I am working with folks who are the real experts on the mainland, Taiwan and various parts of SE Asia.

Back to topic at hand:-

I, for one, disagree with Joy that Emei is an earlier transmission point. Everything that I have studied indicates that Emei is post Shaolin and Wudang. Allow me a little time and I will post some clips in my blog to back up my case.

I do have, in my stash, many other works that are strikingly close to Emei 12 Zhuang but are not related to Emei per se.

I am no expert and that is why I am consulting masters around here who made it their lifetime’s study in this discipline to guide me. Many of my other articles are with them even as we speak.

You might not know this, I believe you left Penang already but Emei is taught in Malaysia and “12 Zhuang” is practiced there for many years now.

I appreciate and agree totally with your observation that we must not be flippant when presenting classical works.

Like I said, all I want to do is put up as much materials as possible for those who might find them useful for their investigations.

And when I do go wrong, I humbly apologize.

I am human.

Take Care and Warmest Regards.

Eric

[Vajramusti]

I am not arguing with you just correcting an apparent misuderstanding of what I sad.I did not say that Emei transmission was earlier than in Song San or Wudang. I said early not earlier-here is what I posted-

"Given my classical Indian background outside of wing chun- many of the ideas including from Emei seem to be extensions of what happened in the Buddhist transmission to China. Emei is an early transmission center.The results in energy control and development, the balancing and the fusions-snake and crane etc can be independently confirmable and some of it has been at different times...but when we get into chronology there can be confusion."


On Emei- a different source and quote:

"Emei Shan has been a Buddhist sanctuary since the third century when disciples of the Puxian form of Buddhism came and built temples to the Bodhisatva. In the ninth century, further temples were built when a delegation sent by a Song Dynasty emperor returned from India and stopped at Emei Shan. The Ming Dynasty also saw restoration of many temples as well as conversion of ancient Taoist temples to Buddhism."

Actually- CMA history is loaded with pitfalls. My main interest is in the art itself. Specially- the wing chun that has come Ip Man.With good guidance. practice and experience things can become self evident. In Buddhism as well good guidance, practice and experience helps with developing awareness.

You have done a valuable service with your posting of styles from SE Asia.

Regards,

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Eric,


Dont go away, your present is great for good discussion, I am here to only discuss and nothing else. so, please dont take it more then discussion.


*, I am not debate with anyone on Emei and SLT creation either. I just present what is found.


*, Similar to all of us, You certainly are free to comments.

*, I certainly would love to see your work on the White Crane.







I, for one, disagree with Joy that Emei is an earlier transmission point. Everything that I have studied indicates that Emei is post Shaolin and Wudang. Allow me a little time and I will post some clips in my blog to back up my case.


Ok to disagree.

IMHO,

To properly see what is going on , it is necessary to dig up the classical Buddhism/Daoism cultivation text such as The "Emei Treasured Lotus Canon” From Beijing Museum for root comparison.

It is only at that depth one will see.



In my understanding,
Emei 12 zhuang is based on Esoteric Buddhism teaching while Shao Lin is based on Chan teaching.

Evidentally, Emei 12 Zhuang' practice go as far as using the seed mantra Hum as in the buddhist basic esoteric/Varjayana/West China/Tibetian seed mantra Om Ah Hum to deal with the Zhen Qi of the body.

I have not seen those in the Chinese Chan Buddhism transmission such as Shao lin. and Wu Dang is Daoism, OM AH Hum is not Daoism's practice.


It is in this depth I am looking forward the comparison to be in.





In addition,

The following summary was from General Qi Jiguang at mid 1500.

今拳家，宋太祖
有三十二势长拳，又有六步拳、猴拳、囵拳，名势各有所称，
而实大同小异。至今之温家七十二行拳、三十六合锁、二十四
弃探马、八闪番、十二短，此亦善之善者也。吕红八下虽刚，
未及绵张短打，山东李半天之腿，鹰爪王之拿，千跌张之跌，
张伯敬之打。少林寺之棍，与青田棍法相兼；杨氏枪法与巴子
拳棍皆今之有名者，虽各有所（缺）传，有上而无下，有下而
无上，就可取胜於人，此不过偏於一隅。


The list here only listed Shao Lin's pole.

As for the close hand combats, no Shao lin and no Wudang.


So, as I suggest, if we going as deep as these type of record and the Lotus canon of Bejing, one will see what is going on.



This is also my point on the discussion the Yik Kam SLT kuen kuit.
if one goes far and deep down, the original face will reveal itself naturally. We dont have to do a thing. it will reveal.




I do have, in my stash, many other works that are strikingly close to Emei 12 Zhuang but are not related to Emei per se.

Certainly, possible.


IMHO,
There are lots of things can look the similar but will never get to the same attainment in the realm of Chinese internal cultivation.

So that call for details, details, and details.







I am no expert and that is why I am consulting masters around here who made it their lifetime’s study in this discipline to guide me. Many of my other articles are with them even as we speak.




Same here.







You might not know this, I believe you left Penang already but Emei is taught in Malaysia and “12 Zhuang” is practiced there for many years now.


Hope that those who train in the 12 Zhuang benifit from it. it is a good art, just mastering a small part will benifit health.




In my understanding, the Kou Lin Qigong, the Her Xiang zhuang Qigong also has components of the 12 Zhuang.

Emei is certainly not a secret after it was release to the public by late Gm Chow Chien Chuan in the mid of 1900 ; Chow is the first who release the art to the public since the creation.

Since Chow is the first person who release the 12 zhuang to the public in the 50's, it is very interesting to see the Cho's SLT kuen kuit of different version from different sources passed down from the 1850 red boat opera has 12 Zhuang's Kuit trace in them.



In additional, what I have heard, up to today, there are only a few who have good hanlding on all of 12 of the 12 Zhuang Mai Qi practice.


What I mean by handling is the ability to handle the Shen and Qi Mai as required by the 12 Zhuang, instead of just learn and repeating the movement.



Thus, IMHO, this handling issues also applied to the SLT from Yik Kam practice.
It is one thing to remember and repeat movements. There is a totally different thing to handle the Qi Mai. It is like living in a different paradigm.

As in the Cho family Kuit of SLT in SEA, one will notice the stanza/phrase, "Flow with the Mai Qi". Even in some of the post CLF SLT kuit I have seen this phrase remain.

Now, have anyone ask the question: What is this mean? How is the handling? What happen? What is the result? of this Flow with the Mai Qi?

So, just repeating motion or movement is not edequate. otherwise, the Ancetor will not keep reminding "Mai Qi" " Mai Qi" a few times in the SLT kuit.


Well, I open the can of worm here, and let those who is interested in this paradigm find out what happen to the Mai Qi how, and where is it from? BTW:
There are six components in this paradigm, Shape, Qi, Intention, Momentum, Jin (as power), and Shen. Go deep enough and you shall see.









I appreciate and agree totally with your observation that we must not be flippant when presenting classical works.

Yup. if we missing a fraction of an inch others will miss a thousand miles. we are just doing our job for the future generation and the ancestors.






Like I said, all I want to do is put up as much materials as possible for those who might find them useful for their investigations.


This is an excellent act of kindness from you. Lots of the future generation will be appreciated.






And when I do go wrong, I humbly apologize.

I am human.

Same here,

We all are human and none of us is perfect.




Best Regards
Hendrik