Wing Chun, Bak Mei, SPM, Lung Ying, how different are they?

[AdrianK]

What do you think about the similarities between these styles?

Do you feel the Wing Chun curriculum offers any concepts, any ideas, any training that is not found in SPM, Lung Ying, or Bak Mei?

What do you feel is unique?

What do you feel is similar?

Obviously if you take a look at say, the average WC fighting stance, and the average SPM stance, there are significant differences outwardly... But does the look of the template in itself, make it unique? Many of the techniques I've found when training SPM, are very similar to WC, or vice versa.

Are there any things that you've found are unique in these other styles, that aren't found in WC?

[chusauli]

Very briefly Josh:

WCK is balanced, stands straight, equal with both left and right hands, controls inside and outside gates very well. 3 major sets and weaponry. Emphasizes sticking.

SPM guard is more like a "V", uses both hands evenly, strong Fou, Chum, Tun, Tou, uses a lot of specialty weapon hands like phoenix eye fist, taught somewhat secretly. 3 major sets, and weaponry. Emphasizes sticking.

Lung Ying is more onesided, maybe even considered left handed...? Zig Zag tight in stepping, attacks to outside, also Fou Chum Tun Tou. Many empty hand sets and weapon sets. Emphasizes closing in.

Bak Mei is like right handed Dragon form. 5 major forms, many minor forms, many weapon sets. Emphasizes closing in.

I grew up in NYC and saw all of these systems a lot. Even met some top guys in the art.

[AdrianK]

Interesting. Thank you for the insight, Robert. I've heard at the later levels of SPM, there is chi sao. Do you know if Bak Mei or Lung Ying have any similar training methods to Chi Sao?

[chusauli]

Bak Mei and Lung Ying do not, although at one point, they might have. They both have sets of "Mor Kiu", which implies to touch/rub the bridges.

Mantis has the Chi Sao and it is taught at all levels. They use other circles than we do. Their Gor Chuie and Geung Ji Chuie are indicative of these other circles that WCK does not use.

[TenTigers]

let me also add that SPM emphasizes the running hands. The hands do not return, rather they continue to strike, flowing in and around the opponent's bridge-each strike creating the angle or direction of the folowing strike.

[chusauli]

WCK does that. too.

[TenTigers]

it would seem that Fukien Bak Hok, or some variation seems to be a common thread in these systems. Many versions look like WCK, SPM, BMP, etc.

[Sydney_Mantis]

IMO WC concentrate more on body structure to deliver hits and SPM concentrate on structure and chi kung. There is a lot more body conditioning in SPM than WC, thats why it takes a lot longer to master SPM. I'm not sure if WC incorporates body conditioning other than their hands and arms?

[TenTigers]

IMO WC concentrate more on body structure to deliver hits and SPM concentrate on structure and chi kung.
I think that would be dependant on the specific style of SPM and WCK. I have seen SPM people who do not use hei-gung, and I have seen WCK people who do.

[Hendrik]

I think that would be dependant on the specific style of SPM and WCK. I have seen SPM people who do not use hei-gung, and I have seen WCK people who do.



Qi Gong is a very very rare term used in China before early 1900.

So, it is incorrect or even misleading to use Qigong/ Heigong as a point of reference.



In the old time, Every competent art has its own type of body/mind/power conditioning which is called Nei Gong or internal practice.


Thus, SPM or White Crane or WCK.... all have their own type of Neigong.
IMHO, SLT or the core of WCK using the Emei 12 Zhuang's technology which is different then others.




See, Stick or Chi as in Chi Sau has different methods. WCK way is similar to a retrograde Sickle or Boomerang. This is different then other art which is using other type of conditioning.

A Sickling art has its way of body, mind, and applicaitons technics.

Thus, even if in a static single photo short of WCK, SMP...... looks the same it doesnt tell anything.



Not to mention, there is a different between the folowing catagory of art.

1, body hard, arm hard, hand hard, (such as Hung Gar in general)
2, Body hard, arm hard, hand soft ( Such as White CRane in general)
3, EVery part is soft, contact point is hard/soft adapting (Such as IMA )


WCK belongs to the #3 catagory due to its characteristics. Thus, it is always call this is a "Female" art due to its soft.




Thus, without a good understand of the art and comparing "Photograph " of individual shape to determine the similarity or different is misleading.



Finally, so what is sickling/boomerang retrograde?

the dramatized idea are illustrated in the following, movie clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLJ2ZIAoN6Q

It is a continous of sickling/boomerang retrograde flow (different then START and STOP repeat art) which looks sticky.

This type of art needs the every part is soft and contact point hard to implement.

When the art was condition wrongly, when it takes the " start and stop repeating" hard body, hard arm,.. type of conditioning or Nei Gong, that becomes a different type of art.


Have you ever ever ask the question why your WCK doesnt have the same "feel" as the WCK idealogy present in the WCK movie or other old WCK master? but more like a Shao Lin or Hung gar or even Karate disregard of you know all about needle within cotton.....willow soft.... ideas?

and,
Even when you playing with the Woodern Dummy, you cant get close and execute?

chances are you use a hard body, hard army, conditioning. examine closely, and see if this is the case.

if that is the case, then the root cause will be the mis practice of the SLT. That means the YJKYM stuck and hard....


One needs to go beyond the shape or the move to know what the art is. and most of us doesnt have that level of understanding compare with those older generation masters in early 1900. thus we stuck.




Just some thoughts.

[esox]

Very briefly Josh:

WCK is balanced, stands straight, equal with both left and right hands, controls inside and outside gates very well. 3 major sets and weaponry. Emphasizes sticking.

SPM guard is more like a "V", uses both hands evenly, strong Fou, Chum, Tun, Tou, uses a lot of specialty weapon hands like phoenix eye fist, taught somewhat secretly. 3 major sets, and weaponry. Emphasizes sticking.

Lung Ying is more onesided, maybe even considered left handed...? Zig Zag tight in stepping, attacks to outside, also Fou Chum Tun Tou. Many empty hand sets and weapon sets. Emphasizes closing in.

Bak Mei is like right handed Dragon form. 5 major forms, many minor forms, many weapon sets. Emphasizes closing in.

I grew up in NYC and saw all of these systems a lot. Even met some top guys in the art.

Please tell me you've never trained in these styles to be so mis-informed

[chusauli]

Please tell me you've never trained in these styles to be so mis-informed

Please enlighten me.

I would be happy to hear your insights and learn more.

[esox]

Please enlighten me.

I would be happy to hear your insights and learn more.

without getting too much into a debate pak mei is no more right handed lung ying than it is right handed wing chun and it's certainly not that, the stance is different the intent is different and whilst all three styles contain some of the same techniques, the way they are empolyed is certainly different.
To say pak mei is like right handed lung ying is to say a cat is a pointy eared dog

[chusauli]

Hi,

Maybe if you guys seen it, you can determine for yourself:

This is a typical Dragon Form set Ying Jow Nim Kiu, but also taught in Bak Mei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvpSV3LKF9E&feature=PlayList&p=4A591D4D8BBB69D1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=68

This is Dragon Form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAnoSIlewxY&feature=related

This is Bak Mei Gou Bo Tui:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iGbETtoE4

This is Ip Sui's Chow Gar Southern Mantis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k5e6kQtF6A

This is Jook Lum Mantis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B_g&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=23

[esox]

Hi,

Maybe if you guys seen it, you can determine for yourself:

This is a typical Dragon Form set Ying Jow Nim Kiu, but also taught in Bak Mei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvpSV3LKF9E&feature=PlayList&p=4A591D4D8BBB69D1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=68

This is Dragon Form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAnoSIlewxY&feature=related

This is Bak Mei Gou Bo Tui:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iGbETtoE4

This is Ip Sui's Chow Gar Southern Mantis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k5e6kQtF6A

This is Jook Lum Mantis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B_g&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=23


My most sincere apologies. I was talking from the perspective of one having been well taught in both lung ying and pak mei but I bow down to the greater knowledge that can be gleaned from youtube.

[chusauli]

esox, I have no issues with you. I don't even disagree with you...I have no idea who you are, what you have trained in, for how long, etc. The youtube is convenient, it lets others who never saw the art to at least see what it is.

On a public forum, its all discussion, you can disagree without being disagreeable. I think Bak Mei and Lung Ying are very similar - they are taught often together, and Cheung Lei Chuen studied both arts. I think Lung Ying is softer and curved and Bak Mei is more linear. In retrospect, I think my Lung Ying using more left hand was off. I remember a Si Hing of mine telling me that...but it may be my faulty memory. When I learned some Bak Mei, Sam Tung Gor Kiu, Ying Jow Nim Kiu, and Lung Ying Mor Kiu were part of the curriculum, albeit with Bak Mei signatures.

Chu Ga Gao, Chow Ga, and Jook Lum all have strong similarities.

All Hakka systems use similar mechanics of Tun, Tou, Fou, Chum - WCK even has it.

I would really like to know more about your insights.

[esox]

I mean only to say that you could never appreciate the essence of a style you hadn't practised by watching someone perform it. I'm sure the same is true of your own style.

Youtube has some decent practitioners and loads of absolutely awful ones.

Yes lung ying is often taught as a precursor to pak mei as it is considered by some to aid the learning process and i would concede that for someone who didn't get too far there would appear some similarities, however when the path is trodden further the styles are so very different. lung ying has a different stance and attacks like a truck demolishing everything in it's path with relentless attack. Lung ying knows no retreat.

Pak mei is far more subtle in it's learning requiring much time to learn the source of it's power and speed but once learnt attacks with the ferocity of the tiger ripping and tearing the skin with fu jow technique.rapid attack coming from every angle. It goes from nothing to madness in a split second. Pak mei employs fu naan choy, phoenix eye fist, lung ying doesn't.

you will appreciate it's so difficult to put into words.

Before i'm done i'm not a subscriber to the Hakka thing, these people are said to have learnt a very early version of the style which clc then perfected over many years they may have learnt the style but it's not there style I believe.

Maybe due to our different nationalities you missed the degree of humour in my previous posts, disagreeable they were not intended to be

[esox]

I would like to add that for anyone interested in a much better explanation of pak mei, as previously discussed in another thread , I recommend Robert Yandle@s book Pak Mei A Dedication

[Hendrik]

rapid attack coming from every angle. It goes from nothing to madness in a split second.

Could you kindly share how is this done, particulaly how the power is generated?


Thanks.

[esox]

Could you kindly share how is this done, particulaly how the power is generated?


Thanks.

find a good teacher as I did, it certainly is not something that can be learned from a book or a video.
Recently when I read Yandle's description of this I realised more than ever that I would never have understood it had someone tried to explain, you have to develop it yourself through copying your teacher, being corrected constantly and hours of practise and I suppose were it any different it would not be worth knowing,

[Hendrik]

find a good teacher as I did, it certainly is not something that can be learned from a book or a video.
Recently when I read Yandle's description of this I realised more than ever that I would never have understood it had someone tried to explain, you have to develop it yourself through copying your teacher, being corrected constantly and hours of practise and I suppose were it any different it would not be worth knowing,


Thanks!

What is the Yandle's description which make your realised more?

Care to share?

[Phil Redmond]

. . . All Hakka systems use similar mechanics of Tun, Tou, Fou, Chum - WCK even has it. . . . .
You beat me to it. I used to watch the guys train JLPM at the Hung Ching club on Canal St in Manhattan. The circling wrists, strike and other aspects are very similar to WC. I've always wondered if the Hakka people influenced W since they setteled in Guangdong, Jiangxi, and Fujian .

[esox]

Thanks!

What is the Yandle's description which make your realised more?

Care to share?

Well one example would be where yandle explains that in our techniques we drop at the abdomen whilst rising at the hip. I read this statement and thought,that's got to be impossible ha.Later when training I realised that that is exactly what I do.
Now my only point is that I could never have learnt that movement from a book, from a video or online it came as an evolutionary process the result being I did
it without knowing.
These subtle things in our styles are not easy to see or explain but we know them, I know from my knowledge of wing chun, which I presume is your style that the subtleties of many techniques would be difficult to see or understand unless you'd built up that understanding through some years of training.

[Hendrik]

Well one example would be where yandle explains that in our techniques we drop at the abdomen whilst rising at the hip. I read this statement and thought,that's got to be impossible ha.Later when training I realised that that is exactly what I do.
Now my only point is that I could never have learnt that movement from a book, from a video or online it came as an evolutionary process the result being I did
it without knowing.



Thanks for sharing.

Ok, the lower abdoment breathing description. Good.

IMHO, there are plenty of those in the IMA.

[TenTigers]

that is the thing with learning Gung-Fu. You can't explain it, read about it, etc and get it. You need to really sweat over it, feel it, bang our head against the wall a few times, and when you eventually do get it, you then read the books, articles etc, and say,"Oh yeah, that's what they were talking about!"
I am at that point right now with my SPM. My teacher says, "I can't teach you how to get this. You need to just work, and ....get it." There are no drills, no forms, no writings, just plain old hard work, hands on, getting frustrated, hit, frustratedm hit...did I mention frustrated? LOL
But..for those of us who are doing this thing we do, that is precisely why we love it. Despite the mental, emotional frustration we go through, it is an incredibly rewarding experience, when we get even just a bit.
In SPM, they say,"If you get just a bit, you've gotten alot."
-probabaly written by someone whose been in my shoes....

[esox]

Thanks for sharing.

Ok, the lower abdoment breathing description. Good.

IMHO, there are plenty of those in the IMA.

no not the lower abdomen breathing description far far from it. Absolutely nothing to do with the breathing teqncnique which is totally seperate. I rest my case.

My only point in all of this was that you can't understand a style, any style, unless you've trained in it to a fair standered.

You seem to have a different agenda, good night

[Hendrik]

that is the thing with learning Gung-Fu. You can't explain it, read about it, etc and get it. You need to really sweat over it, feel it, bang our head against the wall a few times, and when you eventually do get it, you then read the books, articles etc, and say,"Oh yeah, that's what they were talking about!"


That is very true for 90% of the people.

But it is not so for those who did IMA well from a real sifu who has mastered the art. A clear direction and step by step attainment is a must.

One sure still need to spend lots of time on it even one is very clear on what is the direction. That is where one's kung fu comes.

But bang our head against the wall is not an option in serious IMA training.
In fact, in Chinese this is called Mang Xiu Xia lien or training in blind.





I am at that point right now with my SPM. My teacher says, "I can't teach you how to get this. You need to just work, and ....get it." There are no drills, no forms, no writings, just plain old hard work, hands on, getting frustrated, hit, frustratedm hit...did I mention frustrated? LOL


Since I dont do SPM, so I am not talking about SPM.

From my experience with WCK and IMA,
I really dont buy this above. If one can perform something with precision. One certainly will be very clear on what one is doing.

It is not plain old hard work. one can doing all the hard work by cooking a pile of sand , but the sand will never turn into Rice.




But..for those of us who are doing this thing we do, that is precisely why we love it. Despite the mental, emotional frustration we go through, it is an incredibly rewarding experience, when we get even just a bit.


I dont believe this either. This is a totally waste of life. so I am not belong to that group.

For example, a person who has heart issue needs to cultivate a type of qigong to heal the issue. There is no place for fuzzy-ness. EVen with laser clear direction one still needs to have a sifu making correction a few times before get the basic.

How will one get the result if all one have is fuzzy ideas and who knows will it works?

[Hendrik]

no not the lower abdomen breathing description far far from it. Absolutely nothing to do with the breathing teqncnique which is totally seperate. I rest my case.


OK. you say so.

For me, lower abdoment breathing, the motion of spine .. power generation...etc are an integration either one aware of it or not. BTW I am not taking about breathing technics but breathing/body interaction.

By reading /scanning into this part of the body one can read/scan to find out lots of stuffs on the art.





My only point in all of this was that you can't understand a style, any style, unless you've trained in it to a fair standered.

You are right in one way, one certainly has to trained in it to understand it.

On another hand, those who has advance state kung fu is be able to scan and read a style to a big degree.






You seem to have a different agenda, good night

since i dont know it all.
I have an agenda and that is to discuss in details to clarify what is it, instead of being fuzzy.

[TenTigers]

That is very true for 90% of the people.

But it is not so for those who did IMA well from a real sifu who has mastered the art. A clear direction and step by step attainment is a must.

One sure still need to spend lots of time on it even one is very clear on what is the direction. That is where one's kung fu comes.

But bang our head against the wall is not an option in serious IMA training.
In fact, in Chinese this is called Mang Xiu Xia lien or training in blind.

Well, I understand what you are saying. Clearly, you misunderstood what I was referring to. There is certainly a clear direction, and step by step attainment.
It is the development of skill, that takes the time and effort. Gung-Fu-RREAL Gung-Fu is taught through direct transmission. You must feel it, and cultivate it within yourself. In SPM, we call it, "Stealing your Sifu's hand." It is not to mean actually stealing, but trying to replicate the exact feel of your Sifu's hand. You do this by being on the recieving end and then trying to reproduce that exact feeling.
There is also a point, where the progress is brought about by the mind. When you think about what you are doing, and then create a self-evolution. Hard to describe, unless you have experienced this. Like trying to describe what chocolate tastes like.


Since I dont do SPM, so I am not talking about SPM.

From my experience with WCK and IMA,
I really dont buy this above. If one can perform something with precision. One certainly will be very clear on what one is doing.

It is not plain old hard work. one can doing all the hard work by cooking a pile of sand , but the sand will never turn into Rice.

again, we are NOT talking about no direction. On the contrary, the student is closely monitored by the Sifu, otherwise, the student can be practicing improperly and develop bad habits, or in the case of hei-gung, develop imbalances.
It doesn't matter whether you study SPM or not. If your skill is based upon relaxation, sensitivity, proper structure, etc these are basic understandings.

I dont believe this either. This is a totally waste of life. so I am not belong to that group.

For example, a person who has heart issue needs to cultivate a type of qigong to heal the issue. There is no place for fuzzy-ness. EVen with laser clear direction one still needs to have a sifu making correction a few times before get the basic.

How will one get the result if all one have is fuzzy ideas and who knows will it works?

it seems you have taken a mistaken interpetation of only part of a thought, and from this, drawn ridiculous conclusions. I am sure it is due to a language barrier, and the fact that we are not standing face to face. It is difficult to convey certain things on a forum. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[esox]

That is very true for 90% of the people.

But it is not so for those who did IMA well from a real sifu who has mastered the art. A clear direction and step by step attainment is a must.

One sure still need to spend lots of time on it even one is very clear on what is the direction. That is where one's kung fu comes.

But bang our head against the wall is not an option in serious IMA training.
In fact, in Chinese this is called Mang Xiu Xia lien or training in blind.






Since I dont do SPM, so I am not talking about SPM.

From my experience with WCK and IMA,
I really dont buy this above. If one can perform something with precision. One certainly will be very clear on what one is doing.

It is not plain old hard work. one can doing all the hard work by cooking a pile of sand , but the sand will never turn into Rice.




I dont believe this either. This is a totally waste of life. so I am not belong to that group.

For example, a person who has heart issue needs to cultivate a type of qigong to heal the issue. There is no place for fuzzy-ness. EVen with laser clear direction one still needs to have a sifu making correction a few times before get the basic.

How will one get the result if all one have is fuzzy ideas and who knows will it works?

how lucky you where to have such ability and insight without practice and learning, does not kung fu mean that attained by hard effort.

[Hendrik]

how lucky you where to have such ability and insight without practice and learning, does not kung fu mean that attained by hard effort.


Kungfu doesnt means hard effort. Indeed it must not be hard effort.
Hard effort never last.

People can practice Zen or IMA for a whole life, that is because the longer they practice the more effortless it becomes.

For the Chinese, it is said " Dao is the nature way". what ever is in the nature way flow like water effortless. One settle with effortless instead of hard effort.


I am certainly lucky because I have Baisi to lots of sifus who instruct me on their arts clearly.
Do I have to practice to make that art mine? sure. But that is not hard effort. That is to transcent myself to become the art.

In fact, I know someone who spend 2 hours everyday for 4 years just to master the basic of lower abdoment breathing. That is not hard effort but lots of fine tuning to transform oneself to harmonize with the nature. if without a clear direction and using hard effort. one will never get that far.

[Hendrik]

It is the development of skill, that takes the time and effort.

With a clear direction and instruction, how hard effort is that?
Isnt it just like watering a plant everyday and the plant grow?



Gung-Fu-RREAL Gung-Fu is taught through direct transmission. You must feel it, and cultivate it within yourself.

Still that is not hard effort.








again, we are NOT talking about no direction. On the contrary, the student is closely monitored by the Sifu, otherwise, the student can be practicing improperly and develop bad habits, or in the case of hei-gung, develop imbalances.
It doesn't matter whether you study SPM or not. If your skill is based upon relaxation, sensitivity, proper structure, etc these are basic understandings.


Still watering plant everyday is not hard effort. one might sweat under the high sun while watering plants but that is not hard effort.




it seems you have taken a mistaken interpetation of only part of a thought, and from this, drawn ridiculous conclusions. I am sure it is due to a language barrier, and the fact that we are not standing face to face. It is difficult to convey certain things on a forum. Sorry for the misunderstanding.



Good, thus, I propose we need to communicate pricisely. otherwise, those beginners out there take the "Bruce Lee movies Total concentration Zen instruction" and using hard effort trying to get something out of it. and while Bruce is just making a movie other might think if one uses enough hard effort one can be enlightent, which is totally misleading.


Believe it or not for my decades of practice, only those art which I have never used hard effort that I really have some master over it. those art which I used hard effort to practice, all works against me.