San soo vs. Choy Lee Fut

[alintamer]

I wanted to start taking Kung Fu classes (never done it before) and I have a choice of 2 different styles in the city I live in (Arcadia, CA):

1) San Soo
taught by Sifu Horton at the Quan Yin Kung Fu & T'ai Chi school located at
800 Primrose Ave
Monrovia, CA 91016

2) Choy Lee Fut
taught by Sifu Ng Fu Hang at the Choy Lee Fut Martial Arts Federation of America located at
500 1/2E Live Oak Ave
Arcadia, CA 91006

I'm leaning more towards Choy Lee Fut because San Soo seems more straight to the point of quickly disabling an opponent (like Krav Maga) with speed and attacking the chin-na and little emphasis on style or form. On the other hand though, Choy Lee Fut has all the forms, but it seems more for the purpose of art, while San Soo is combat applicable and seems better fit for self defense when out in public.

I just wanted to hear anyone's thoughts and opinions on these 2 fighting styles so I can make a more informed decision.

Also, having to do specifically with the Choy Lee Fut taught by Sifu Ng Fu Hang in Arcadia, if anyone is currently taking the class, do you have any comments on how it's taught? It sounds great that he's a direct descendent of the originator of the martial art, but I'm a little worried about how the classes are basically the student coming in whenever they can and just practicing (like a gym), and Sifu only jumps in to teach when he sees you doing something wrong or if he sees it fit to teach you something new. I spoke to a student there and he said he had gone weeks without learning a new form or techinque. Is this an effective teaching method? That's really the main factor in my decision making because the san soo classes are structured with time slots every day and Sifu Horton kind of has a curriculum set up so you learn something new every week.

Oops, sorry for the long post.

[grasshopper 2.0]

It comes down to a few questions:

1) What r ur goals for learning kung fu? Do u want to practice for the sake of fitness? Self-defense? Etc

2) What is ur learning style? Seems like the CLF is more traditional in its teachings and might not be for everyone

3) Why not try both? The instructor himself plays a huge role in determining if the school is good, if self-defense is good, etc. I would say instructor is number 1 and style of art is number 2.

[htowndragon]

sounds like someone is here to promote san soo.

[hskwarrior]

On the other hand though, Choy Lee Fut has all the forms, but it seems more for the purpose of art, while San Soo is combat applicable and seems better fit for self defense when out in public.

that would depend on what school you're looking at. CLF is perfectly fitted for combat. you should try different CLF sifu's. Like i said, CLF is great for practical street defense.


I spoke to a student there and he said he had gone weeks without learning a new form or techinque.

I went through the same thing except i got three moves in three months. It basically designed to test a student's character. to see if he's patient, or wants to get it all in one night then move on to the next school. the old teachers worked hard at their skills, and were not open to just GIVE them away like they didn't matter. And, if you were to practice your basics, along with the form, then how long it takes to learn the form shouldn't really matter.


Is this an effective teaching method?

no and yes. No cause there's not alot of hands on. Yes, because it causes you to understand the techniques through your own eyes instead of that of anothers.

if you need to be lead for an hour, then you should join a school that does that type of training. the CLF school you mention offers old style CLF training. both are good, it's what you get out of them that matters.

[Waidan]

San Soo might dive into the fighting concepts more quickly (at the school I trained at we drilled combat techniques day one), but CLF is likely to provide more depth of knowledge in the long run. In my experience many KFSS practitioners have little or no understanding of internal techniques to complement their external. If that doesn't interest you and you just want to punch people in the throat, then try San Soo. They may not have the "whole package" but KFSS are very open with what they have. Again, that's in my experience, ymmv.

[Drake]

I wanted to start taking Kung Fu classes (never done it before) and I have a choice of 2 different styles in the city I live in (Arcadia, CA):

1) San Soo
taught by Sifu Horton at the Quan Yin Kung Fu & T'ai Chi school located at
800 Primrose Ave
Monrovia, CA 91016

2) Choy Lee Fut
taught by Sifu Ng Fu Hang at the Choy Lee Fut Martial Arts Federation of America located at
500 1/2E Live Oak Ave
Arcadia, CA 91006

I'm leaning more towards Choy Lee Fut because San Soo seems more straight to the point of quickly disabling an opponent (like Krav Maga) with speed and attacking the chin-na and little emphasis on style or form. On the other hand though, Choy Lee Fut has all the forms, but it seems more for the purpose of art, while San Soo is combat applicable and seems better fit for self defense when out in public.

I just wanted to hear anyone's thoughts and opinions on these 2 fighting styles so I can make a more informed decision.

Also, having to do specifically with the Choy Lee Fut taught by Sifu Ng Fu Hang in Arcadia, if anyone is currently taking the class, do you have any comments on how it's taught? It sounds great that he's a direct descendent of the originator of the martial art, but I'm a little worried about how the classes are basically the student coming in whenever they can and just practicing (like a gym), and Sifu only jumps in to teach when he sees you doing something wrong or if he sees it fit to teach you something new. I spoke to a student there and he said he had gone weeks without learning a new form or techinque. Is this an effective teaching method? That's really the main factor in my decision making because the san soo classes are structured with time slots every day and Sifu Horton kind of has a curriculum set up so you learn something new every week.

Oops, sorry for the long post.


Aside from sounding like an ad for san soo (yep, I'm raising an eyebrow here), you answered your own question.

[alintamer]

It comes down to a few questions:

1) What r ur goals for learning kung fu? Do u want to practice for the sake of fitness? Self-defense? Etc

2) What is ur learning style? Seems like the CLF is more traditional in its teachings and might not be for everyone

3) Why not try both? The instructor himself plays a huge role in determining if the school is good, if self-defense is good, etc. I would say instructor is number 1 and style of art is number 2.

1) My goals are to learn a style of kung fu with actual technique and form (something that looks smooth and beautiful in practice) but to be able to use it in self-defense if needed. Fitness is a distant 3rd goal, I lift weights when I can and practice parkour on Saturdays and that keeps me pretty fit. On a spiritual and mental level, I am looking for something to balance me out, energy-wise, and to see what my discipline level is. If it's bad, hopefully it can improve it.

2) What do you mean, "what is my learning style?" Like what method is the best way for me to learn things?

3) I'd try both (CLF first) but then I feel I wouldn't get much out of trying CLF, because it's a slower method of learning than San Soo.

[alintamer]

that would depend on what school you're looking at. CLF is perfectly fitted for combat. you should try different CLF sifu's. Like i said, CLF is great for practical street defense.



I went through the same thing except i got three moves in three months. It basically designed to test a student's character. to see if he's patient, or wants to get it all in one night then move on to the next school. the old teachers worked hard at their skills, and were not open to just GIVE them away like they didn't matter. And, if you were to practice your basics, along with the form, then how long it takes to learn the form shouldn't really matter.



no and yes. No cause there's not alot of hands on. Yes, because it causes you to understand the techniques through your own eyes instead of that of anothers.

if you need to be lead for an hour, then you should join a school that does that type of training. the CLF school you mention offers old style CLF training. both are good, it's what you get out of them that matters.


The more I think about it, the more I'm convincing myself that I might be alright with the CLF traditional teaching method. There's only one CLF sifu in my area and the distance to the school is a big factor. The student I spoke to said almost exactly what you did: "it tests your discipline and patients and if the Sifu sees that you are working hard and coming 2-3 times a week, he'll teach you more things."

I'm pretty patient and I don't mind praciticing a form or move on my own...I do it with Parkour. But I'm afraid I might get frustrated and lose focus if it seems I'm going no where. The one thing I feel will make things go slow is that I may not be getting a lot of feedback from the Sifu. It sounds childish, but I work a whole lot better with getting feedback (be it praise or corrections). I think I might try both but I'm going to start with CLF first.

[alintamer]

San Soo might dive into the fighting concepts more quickly (at the school I trained at we drilled combat techniques day one), but CLF is likely to provide more depth of knowledge in the long run. In my experience many KFSS practitioners have little or no understanding of internal techniques to complement their external. If that doesn't interest you and you just want to punch people in the throat, then try San Soo. They may not have the "whole package" but KFSS are very open with what they have. Again, that's in my experience, ymmv.

The majority of the replies I've been getting has been tipping the scales towards CLF...this one was a deal breaker. I think I've narrowed it down to one deciding factor: if I ever needed to defend myself, would I want to "punch the guy in the throat" and break his joints quickly or block and attack with a bit of style and finesse? And I'm leaning more towrds the finesse and form.

[alintamer]

Aside from sounding like an ad for san soo (yep, I'm raising an eyebrow here), you answered your own question.

I did? I didn't realize it. Which discipline did I point to? And why is everyone saying "an ad for San Soo"?

[hskwarrior]

The one thing I feel will make things go slow is that I may not be getting a lot of feedback from the Sifu

My sifu never told us how to use the techniques either. But, the spar forms truly gave us a better insight into the usage of the system. We'd always approached our forms with the intensity of a fight and did so often.

In the end, its one thing to be spoon fed. it's another thing to come to a complete understanding of how YOU would do something because you may be different in shape, aggression, manner, mindset and so forth from your classmates or even the one teaching you.

What i mean is that i've owned my gung fu. I know how it works for me. and i make it work for me. its like clay. not set in stone. In my lineage, we don't produce cookie cutter martial artists. They all come to understand how CLF works for them as individuals.

as a fighter, you must take the basic hand techniques and learn to apply them in a practical manner that works specifically for YOU. the forms hold the keys into many aspects of the system, ultimately its YOU and what you do with the CLF or any martial arts you study.

[deeperthantao]

a single move practiced a thousand times is better than a thousand moves practiced once or so the saying goes...

[hskwarrior]

or quality is better than quantity!!!!

[grasshopper 2.0]

It seems that ur game on clf! I say go for it. It's been my experience that nowadays, form and finesse (from kung fu forms training) does not equate to self defense. Sometime, as boring as punching a throat may seem, it's what works.

For now, its hard for u to see if u will be able to defend urself let alone stick with it long enough. But if u got the desire to try clf, give urself at least 6 months to a year and see iif u want to move to san soo. Not fair to try say 3 weeks and then move on, given the teachers teaching style!

Let us know how the class goes!

[hskwarrior]

IF you know how to look, CLF or what we call in MY lineage (Hung Sing Kuen) has almost everything you're looking for in fighting. On the defensive side, if you work your defense it's hard to touch you. If you work on CLF offense, it can be very hard to stop you. There are take downs, joint locks, THROAT SHOTS ALL DAY, neck shots, upper cuts, jabs, parry's, knee's, elbows, animals strikes, and last but not least, CLF is very aggressive by design.

The key is to extract the techniques you find within CLF that work for you. Work them to death. find new ways to work them. then find more new ways to work them. knowledge is power. you can drill CLF techniques just the same as any other system from boxing to MMA. If the teacher doesn't personally teach things you find you need work on, find some class mates you can work out with to iron out any wrinkles you may have.

[alintamer]

Hey everybody,

I traveled back home last week so I wasn't able to read your replies and comment. Like a pancake, something came up that's making me now flip flop and lean more towards san soo. A sudden grapple fest with my brother (who is into MMA) kind of pushed me the other way towards San Soo. It seems like a style that is more useful for present day, especially in self defense. Just when I was about to close on CLF, I'm back in limbo between San Soo and CLF. The pros from each style are all good, so I don't compare them. The only cons I have with each is the following:

San Soo: Not as much punching and kicking technique, more Chin Na takedowns and a bit of grappling (although that might be more useful in present day self defense)

CLF: The speed at which learning the techniques and the method of teaching is still unappealling. I don't want to learn "a thousand moves in one day," but a move every 2-3 weeks is something I can work with, not a move (form) every few months if I'm not getting it right. Also, using CLF for self-defense doesn't seem that efficient in present day society.

I'm probably going to end up flipping a coin to make my decision. Any last comments or advice from anyone to help in the decision making? I really want to start soon.

[CLFNole]

I don't think most CLF schools teach a 1,000 moves in a day or even a form for that matter. We teach a few moves each class that is dedicated to forms practice (other class are pure fighting and bagwork). Learning new moves is heavily dependant on whether or not the student practices or understands the moves they learned previously. If I see a student that can't do what I showed him or her the previous week I won't teach them anything new but rather continue to fix what they learned previously.

Don't get too caught up in the number of forms CLF has because that can be misleading. Forms tend to have many of the same combos but in different orders and variations. Yes each form might have a signature move but the meat and potatoes if you will are the same (10 seeds of CLF, gwa, sow, chop...)

In terms of self-defense it comes down to how each school teaches as CLF is very good for self-defense as it is a no nonsense type of art. You can take a few of the seeds and learn how to use them rather quickly, of course as with anything some practice and conditioning are needed.

[hskwarrior]

a thousand moves in one day

who teaches like that? Sh1t sifu used to give me 3 moves for a month or two!!!


Also, using CLF for self-defense doesn't seem that efficient in present day society.

thats ENTIRELY false. Most of my students have used their CLF in actual real life combat and prevailed. One of the attacked by a bunch of guys with screw drivers and knives. I didn't ask him what he used to protect himself, i asked witnesses what my student was doing when this was happening. they demonstrated the Sow Choy, and the Cup Choy and i never taught that to them.

I think it depends on what kind of fighting experience background your teacher has. if its been all competition, then he's lacking real life combat out on the streets.


Don't get too caught up in the number of forms CLF has because that can be misleading. Forms tend to have many of the same combos but in different orders and variations. Yes each form might have a signature move but the meat and potatoes if you will are the same (10 seeds of CLF, gwa, sow, chop...)

This is true. People who haven't had any real fights don't know how to dissect the meat and potatoes.

[Violent Designs]

Hey buddy I sent ya a PM. Hope I can help.

[gwa sow]

if ya wanna do grappling stuff go fo jiu jitsu. and a lot of schools have some boxing or kickboxing guys to help with stand up. if you wanna learn stand up fighting go for CLF. it does have some chin na grappling stuff in it. If you can learn ad master the techniques from the first few forms in clf you are better off the most peopl you'll ever run into on the street. the rest is just fancy stuff to add on.

[alintamer]

Hey buddy I sent ya a PM. Hope I can help.

a PM? What's that?

[gwa sow]

private message. look under your name at the top of page. should see one there

[Violent Designs]

yes private message. i sent you one.