Simultaneous block + strikes don't work?

[Pacman]

http://soxanddawgs.com/2009/05/24/video-lyoto-machida-knocks-out-rashad-evans/

Watch the slow mo. The first punch--he neutralized rashad's jab at the same time throwing a left handed bomb

[sihing]

http://soxanddawgs.com/2009/05/24/video-lyoto-machida-knocks-out-rashad-evans/

Watch the slow mo. The first punch--he neutralized rashad's jab at the same time throwing a left handed bomb

It works, it's just low %. It all depends who your trying to apply it against. And it's a matter of timing. You can have 3 basic timings, hit the guy just before he releases (while he's loading up, setting up), hit him while he's releasing (simul blk/strk), hit him just after he releases (follow him back), but your own personal timing and perception must be finely tuned to pull it off from a non contact position. In the end timing is the essence, without it nothing you have learned will work effectively.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

I prefer and thus find that, "stop hits" are more effective.

[sihing]

I prefer and thus find that, "stop hits" are more effective.

"To reach me, you must move to me, your attack offers me an opportunity to intercept you" - ??:confused:

JR

[sanjuro_ronin]

"To reach me, you must move to me, your attack offers me an opportunity to intercept you" - ??:confused:

JR

Correct.
I think it was my experience in ITF TKD that did the trick, stop hits where a huge mainstay in my training.

[couch]

Along the lines that this thread is going:
http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/27899.html

Best,
K

[k gledhill]

IMO one of the pitfalls of VT training is that to much emphasis is placed on combo strikes , rather than strike power , timing, angling to face , shifting around like a fighter FIRST.
First the the simultaneous strike/deflections from either of the individual arms striking [tan is a strike in training / jum a strike in training]...THEN partnerships
Primary attacks from jut sao, due to a lead strke being intercepted/blocked/impeded...and pak sao, jsut depends which hand is striking / leading the attack at that given angle/ side /position and the opponents movement.

The SLT teaches the first actions [ in each form] to create a line the wrists x along while striking , then a simple punch from the centerline with each arm, starting from the centerline , not the side of the body.

The tan / jum/ vu/ fok / huen cycles ...tan for the strikes outside line [ either side ]
jum for the inside line , fok for neither tan/jum just hold centerline relaxed.

Wrists travel the line xing it as they extend ,tan & jum never leaving the line , the tan elbow spreads off the line as it hits ,not the tan wrist, jum elbow tries to stay along the line as it hits , jum wrist never leaves the line ....important for facing techniques.

Basic strikes from the 1st section of the SLT teach a simple and effective simultaneous
rotation of 2 arms , EACH capable of delivering 2 actions per 1 action....dan chi-sao is redundant after learning the 2 step strike...not wrist use as many have adopted, but elbow and fist/wrist alignment drills, dropped in a 1-2 beat for sparring /fighting...just hitting with the unseen arms ability ingrained.

The middle sections of SLT introduce the partnerships of lead/man sao strike being interrupted and the following strikes in proper cycles of attack/deflect or A/D for short

A/D arm can be all the known actions ...we know those :D...what many fail to realize is the basic strikes ability beyond a chain fist attack, rather than arms /elbows / fists attack...iow the focus goes to the fists striking , not the arms behind the fists and the preliminary work of the VT system to make them function thoughtlessly along our line as we engage to fight....if the focus is on the fists alone the elbows fly out etc...and the ability to work moves to the second stage attack partnerships before the first ever worked...

A fighter shouldnt require to always use a free lead hand to parry for the rear to enter. if the lead is trained to simply strike as well with the added ability to deflect from angles
training etc...the fighter free's up his attacking to simply strike and enter with strikes from each hand FIRST , not grab the guys hand with lop first...

ASA you do this your equal....the systems tactics train us to have the added arm striking ability to fight flanked individual arms in a fluid attacking action....

not down the center line blasting away with lead legs , like nut jobs:D

[couch]

http://soxanddawgs.com/2009/05/24/video-lyoto-machida-knocks-out-rashad-evans/

Watch the slow mo. The first punch--he neutralized rashad's jab at the same time throwing a left handed bomb

It all depends on what you consider a block and strike. Is covering your jaw with one hand while firing with the other a block/strike combo? Or do you have to have both hands outstretched like a Biu Da? IMO, stuff like a Biu Da is great looking, but it's hard to get the power from the hips/body when you're sticking both hands out.

[k gledhill]

we dont use 2 arms equally extended to fight....as chi-sao is a drill with each partner extending each arm facing for training the ability to have equal arm capability and action/reaction from each others random entry angling striking and counter striking the attacking arms...


for fighting /sparring you dont enter with 2 leading arms for the simple reason that they can be trapped easily....with a man / vu , aka lead & rear attacking hands the concept is to never be stopped from delivering an attacking action....

lead hand , rear hand , I see it all the time in fighting ; )

stop thinking of vu-sao as a protecting passive rear hand to parry stuff, sure its available but it is also the king of the attacking hands ....why we place so much emphasis in training the VU_SAO!!~! aka rear attacking hand . And its postions relative to our c line and raised bongs , if it is impeded for even a fraction ....tsk tsk tsk....back to training !!

If you see vu-sao as a passive rear hand to receive stuff with then your mind isnt attacking but rather reacting to being attacked ..you should be firing it from a x line position to delver the unthinking line attack...it is a root hand for 'no mind' attacks ...SLT tut sao teaches the recovery of vu-sao, CK form has it for a very good reason, to recover the bridged leading arm with vusao already in position to fire , not lop as so many get ingrained...just strike from vusao 1st then see what happens ...BG has it from underneath the arm...because your arm has been either lifted as you attack or you cant go over your own bridge as slt thinking...

WSL used to have a board with individuals mistakes written on it so each could work the hand in question on the board....

Vu-sao ; )



Bil gee can offer alternatives..:D

[chusauli]

Vu Sao is German way of English spelling Wu Sao? :confused: I was scratching my head a bit...

What's missing is one needs to control the bridge with proper pressure. The punch moves along the bridge using Sticking (Chi) and Rubbing, groping, touching (Mor). This is collectively known as "Chi Mor Hang Kiu"

One fist has all the applications. Jik Chung Chuie has Fuk, Tan, Bong, Gaun, Tiu, Jut energies present... so you have one hand with all the ability to do much control, and have another hand free to do more damage. Forget about Tan Da, Fuk Da, Gaun Da, Gum Da...you need a Pak Da and Lop Da to get in (life is full of opening doors by pushing and pulling), but only need punches with multi vectoral forces with them.

[sihing]

IMO one of the pitfalls of VT training is that to much emphasis is placed on combo strikes , rather than strike power , timing, angling to face , shifting around like a fighter FIRST.


Chain punching as a application is due to no power in their strikes in the 1st place, trust me I know all about this as I was a follower for 18yrs. WCheung could throw 8-9 punches a second, they calulated that at Boston Univ back in the 90's, but what happens when each punch has connected, the rebound force would slow everything down, especially if you have no body structure to absorb that force more efficiently. That was never talked about, taught, or even heard of in that line. I see WT guys doing the samething, lots of punching, but little control and power. I would think that as a striker one would 1st develop a good punch, good footwork and good finishing skills. Correct?

James

[AdrianK]

Chain punching as a application is due to no power in their strikes in the 1st place, trust me I know all about this as I was a follower for 18yrs. WCheung could throw 8-9 punches a second, they calulated that at Boston Univ back in the 90's, but what happens when each punch has connected, the rebound force would slow everything down, especially if you have no body structure to absorb that force more efficiently. That was never talked about, taught, or even heard of in that line. I see WT guys doing the samething, lots of punching, but little control and power. I would think that as a striker one would 1st develop a good punch, good footwork and good finishing skills. Correct?

James

I never saw the results of the actual study, but heard from William Cheung or maybe it was from Joe Sayah(its been a few years), that they calculated it at around 150lbs of force, per punch. I always thought that implied that he actually hit something, to calculate this. Do you know of anywhere I can find the links to the actual study?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Chain punching in serious fighting/all out sparring is an extremely overated technique/strategy - when up against any half-way decent fighter. Why all the hoop-la about it? Unless you completely catch someone with the first few shots right in his face or head - and with some solid driving power and pressure behind the punches...

this fight will immediately go to clinch, in all probability. And then what?

[k gledhill]

Vu Sao is German way of English spelling Wu Sao? :confused: I was scratching my head a bit...

What's missing is one needs to control the bridge with proper pressure. The punch moves along the bridge using Sticking (Chi) and Rubbing, groping, touching (Mor). This is collectively known as "Chi Mor Hang Kiu"

One fist has all the applications. Jik Chung Chuie has Fuk, Tan, Bong, Gaun, Tiu, Jut energies present... so you have one hand with all the ability to do much control, and have another hand free to do more damage. Forget about Tan Da, Fuk Da, Gaun Da, Gum Da...you need a Pak Da and Lop Da to get in (life is full of opening doors by pushing and pulling), but only need punches with multi vectoral forces with them.

yes wu/vu :D


you say lop sao I say jut sao , i used to lop but not anymore....used lop in a fight once, I missed and nearly spun around , I thought it was my fault :D I had to re-face the guy and punch him again :o

Like grabbing a ball being hit like a paddle-ball at you ...if you leave a hand there like jut sao , you miss the grab you grab the ball you still dont get hit the ball hits your hand /arm on the line you can move towrds the paddle to stop it completely in the same line, try to lop the ball sideways /lateral grabs and you miss it hits you in the face while your hand goes left or right to the balls path...like trying to catch a fast jab , just punch the jabbing arm attacking it, you make contact , 'it' will tell us what to do to it...miss and your striking in and fighting , attacking ....

or shooting a machine gun from the sides of an advancing line ,,, rather than before it...one just aims straight ahead firing , minimizing the furthest ends ability to face us...

firing from the front turning here there missing through gaps , open to a shot from either side of the advancing line

in chi-sao the line is randomly presented so we can adopt a side to fire from...once we fire we endeavor to do it in a straight line before us as we shift according to the lines atempt to reface us....no sticking or controlling is required, as the lines attempts to 'stick & find' us allows us to shift as the over turn etc....we simply face the direction we need while firing...



each duality of arm attacks works to shut down either flank..... jum tan/ \tan jum

jut or lop ? I jut first, lop if I must...sounds like a song :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chain punching as a application is due to no power in their strikes in the 1st place, trust me I know all about this as I was a follower for 18yrs. WCheung could throw 8-9 punches a second, they calulated that at Boston Univ back in the 90's, but what happens when each punch has connected, the rebound force would slow everything down, especially if you have no body structure to absorb that force more efficiently. That was never talked about, taught, or even heard of in that line. I see WT guys doing the samething, lots of punching, but little control and power. I would think that as a striker one would 1st develop a good punch, good footwork and good finishing skills. Correct?

James

The JKA did a similar study which you can find in the book Dynamic Karate, that showed a dramatic decrease in impact force after the 3rd punch in a 7 punch combo ( I think it was 7...it was a multi punch one though), the force went up to the 2nd strike,a slight drop to the 3rd and a dramacti one to the 4th, etc, etc

[k gledhill]

off topic but in wsl vt the hips and elbows should connect for force , not just a chain punch, in William Chungs defense, He is just showing one aspect of a vt system...i know he's not going to stand there and hit me like a speed ball in a real fight huminahuminahhuminah with my head rocking back and forth from the onslaught :D

Ive learned from door work that hitting too fast doesnt do anything...guys who want to throw lots of punches fast, we see them in fights , guys throwing lots of little shots with no real stopping power...
the recipient is just getting tapped , cuts maybe with bare fists, but one good slam and they should be doing the 6 ft butt slide ...

[chusauli]

LOL! Those 8 - 10 taps per second are not like real punches! You hit with the Chu (tm) pelvic thrusting (and really its the complete torso thrusting), not the arms! This is so you f**k the guy up!

Just when I met the YKS guy and he told me his guy could punch 10 times in a second - how hard was that, I asked? They can score and tap, but hardly knock anyone out.

150 lbs is weak. Boxing's right cross can strike out at 600 - 800 lbs - I used to do that at the arcade with those punching machines. WCK should be right about there, too. 150 lbs is just tapping with the arms, not enough body.

[anerlich]

Chain punching as a application is due to no power in their strikes in the 1st place, trust me I know all about this as I was a follower for 18yrs. WCheung could throw 8-9 punches a second, they calulated that at Boston Univ back in the 90's, but what happens when each punch has connected, the rebound force would slow everything down, especially if you have no body structure to absorb that force more efficiently. That was never talked about, taught, or even heard of in that line. I see WT guys doing the samething, lots of punching, but little control and power. I would think that as a striker one would 1st develop a good punch, good footwork and good finishing skills. Correct?

No arguments here.

FWIW, my instructor Rick Spain went through a period trying to match or beat this "record" (I think it was actually 8.3 per second, FWIW). He got up around there, and apparently the old man told him, "ah, but did they measure the power of the punches?", which presumably they did at Boston U, though one wonders how if you are just punching in air - as James says, actually hitting something with penetration would have to slow things down.

He said he found the experience a bit of a waste of time, as the constant concentration on speed meant he neglected other aspects of his training, and that overall nothing really improved.

Some WT guys claimed they could hit faster than this (this being the times of the TWC/WT feud), and the Speed Man, John La Tourette, came out claiming he could hit up to 12 times a second, but it was all stuff like fist/wrist/elbow/elbow/shoulder/... and none of it really looked like it would hurt anyone.

[sihing]

I never saw the results of the actual study, but heard from William Cheung or maybe it was from Joe Sayah(its been a few years), that they calculated it at around 150lbs of force, per punch. I always thought that implied that he actually hit something, to calculate this. Do you know of anywhere I can find the links to the actual study?

I remember reading about it some of WCheung's books, then I found the Inside Kung Fu addition that profiled the study with pictures and explainations. Yeah, from what I understand the 150-160lbs of force per punch was what was stated in the article, and back then I thought that was powerful. Now I don't as Robert mentioned the average cross is up around 800-900 lbs. Isn't it more efficient to throw 1 instead of 3?

James

[sihing]

The JKA did a similar study which you can find in the book Dynamic Karate, that showed a dramatic decrease in impact force after the 3rd punch in a 7 punch combo ( I think it was 7...it was a multi punch one though), the force went up to the 2nd strike,a slight drop to the 3rd and a dramacti one to the 4th, etc, etc

You know what, since training in WSL method, my thinking is along these lines, that max you could throw 3 shots in a stepping action. Sorta like a fajing thing, I saw Erle Montague talking about this on one of his tapes once. Here's me doing a 3 punch combo VT style on the bag, taped it last October, just concentrating on using my elbow/hip/ground connection, not trying to over power it, and accuracy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZVyNtkE_gg .

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good post and clip, James.

I've been a big believer in this kind of drill - and the philosophy behind it - for many, many years. The 6-7-8 punch thing is a big waste of time, as Rick Spain expressed it to Andrew Nerlich.

And as I said earlier, after about the 3rd punch or so, something is bound to happen to change the dynamics of the fight in a radical way anyway.

[anerlich]

Not being an expert on the subject, I would imagine that after 3 or more punches as fast as possible with either arm your ATP reserves would start depleting, contractions less powerful, etc.

The fast chain punch is basically a party trick.

It probably should be pointed out that William Cheung can actually hit hard, as well as fast, though apparently not both at once.


Boxing's right cross can strike out at 600 - 800 lbs - I used to do that at the arcade with those punching machines.

Yeah, and Ivan Drago went up to 2000 in Rocky IV! :D

[sihing]

Not being an expert on the subject, I would imagine that after 3 or more punches as fast as possible with either arm your ATP reserves would start depleting, contractions less powerful, etc.

The fast chain punch is basically a party trick.

It probably should be pointed out that William Cheung can actually hit hard, as well as fast, though apparently not both at once.



Yeah, and Ivan Drago went up to 2000 in Rocky IV! :D

There's no doubt WCheung can hit hard, but it is in a singular sense, not all 8 or 9 equally as was advertised. I can see using the chain punch when working some speed drills, or as JKD advocates using it as a relentless centerline attack to setup elbows/headbutts, but otherwise it's patty cake time.

:cool:I was going to mention sir Ivan, but since this forum is based on the real I wasn't sure it was appropiate:D

James

[Pacman]

It works, it's just low %. It all depends who your trying to apply it against. And it's a matter of timing. You can have 3 basic timings, hit the guy just before he releases (while he's loading up, setting up), hit him while he's releasing (simul blk/strk), hit him just after he releases (follow him back), but your own personal timing and perception must be finely tuned to pull it off from a non contact position. In the end timing is the essence, without it nothing you have learned will work effectively.

James

i think there is an easy way to consider whether block/strikes are good or not.

when someone throws a punch and you are not able to hit him as he winds up (or if he does not wind up as in WC), you have two options

1. block or evade
2. (block or evade) + strike

if you go with option #2, even if you do not hit him you are least disrupting his attack.

after all you have 4 limbs, might as well use them all

[Pacman]

Isn't it more efficient to throw 1 instead of 3?

James

depends on the fighting style. and you are assuming that the one will connect.

not that i think punches should be weak, but you could also argue what good is a powerful super punch if you can't connect?

this is the style that some boxers and karate stylists use. the super punch. in boxing, typically most guys are just itching to use the hook from the rear hand. karate stylists want to do the powerful super punch too.

WC is about flowing and continuous hits. not that we want to punch weakly, but the style of fighting is about continuation.

its up to you which style you want to go with.

i know everyone will love when i say this, but it all goes back to hard styles (starting and stopping, rigid) vs soft styles (smooth, continuous)

[AdrianK]

LOL! Those 8 - 10 taps per second are not like real punches! You hit with the Chu (tm) pelvic thrusting (and really its the complete torso thrusting), not the arms! This is so you f**k the guy up!

Just when I met the YKS guy and he told me his guy could punch 10 times in a second - how hard was that, I asked? They can score and tap, but hardly knock anyone out.

150 lbs is weak. Boxing's right cross can strike out at 600 - 800 lbs - I used to do that at the arcade with those punching machines. WCK should be right about there, too. 150 lbs is just tapping with the arms, not enough body.

Oh absolutely. 150lbs is pathetic for a trained fighter. I once read Muhammad Ali's jab alone, was clocked at around 1500lbs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From the studies I have read and be involved in myself, a trained fighter can typiclaly hit with about 800-900 lbs of force on a "momentum" based strike, which are the typical cross and hooks and such.
Some can hit quite harder, over the 1K mark but that becomes redundantr because typically anyone can get KO'd with anything over the 600 mark which is around the 10g mark in accelration on the head.
Jabs tend to be in the 400lbs mark by the way, no chance Ali had a 1500lb jab.
Now, many studies have been done on impact as it relates to car crash and such and even on fight science they have measured force impact of MA and those value I stated are pretty much the average for a typical fighter in the 180-200lbs mark, but size matters of course, though the studies show that in terms of force impact it doesn't matter that much, many lighter fighters hitting harder than the bigger fighters, BUT ON AVERAGE, the bigger fighters hit harder, which is obvious.
The last study I was invloved in a couple of years ago involved hitting a MOVING target, a padded sparring partner that had force sensors wired into the padding.
Mesurments were taken of strikes on a static target and then while sparring for 3 min.
Typically there was a drop of 20% from the force registered on a static strike as opposed to striking a moving object.

[k gledhill]

How many times you hit someone is really about the reality , bare fists/hands have no pillows, er ....gloves :D

if the force is received in a direct line in and out the head/jaw, they usually go in the direction of that force, they will travel too...5-6 ft or slam into a wall if its right behind them, double impact ... punch>!head!<wall

If you hit a guy who is coming at you and time the strike , say a palm to the head of a guy coming low trying to grab a wrist before hitting you, you get maximum 'timing' impact.
Or a group of guys in bar brawl and you strike to your left to hit the closest guy advancing on you in the head/jaw , as you are both 'facing & turning' AND hitting together, this gives maximum force potential of a head on collision , multiplying the forces at contact....care should be maintained so you dont really hurt the guy beyond reasonable force required. You can do some serious damage.

I practice this head on striking by swinging a heavy bag so its coming at me , not just hanging still and I move around or go in at a straight line . If you start the exercise by pushing the bag away from you , move back a step or two and wait for the swing to come back at you while being offside slightly and strike low on the bag as it nears the apex of the return swing ..you get the idea ... a lot of times this is the way because of guys coming in 2's or more, so you have to be waiting for 'first come, first served' tactics. The bag will knock you back at first until you get the timing and stance etc...you will feel the force generated.

Counter-striking entry also has this force amplification....if the timing is done right. In seung ma toi ma drills we strike the entry using the forearms as the alignment along the line to cover the attempted strike in AS we strike the target [partner] . So we get a head on ability, while adopting a balanced , well structured, hips etc...stance in time with the entry...a lot of things that sounds simple but takes many reps to get it all timed together with FORCE sufficient to stop or even hurt the partner. Doing this drill randomly from either side angling and also stepping in attacking gives both the opportunity to train 'head-on striking' only with offside /blindside/flanking ...done with the added dimension of a pre-fight gap you instinctively move and position or strike to the optimal angles etc..first come etc... or sparring trying to shift quickly back and forth in out etc along a perimeter line ..no lead legs back and forth yet until you gain side entry of, or turn the attacker...then you can adopt a lead leg [either one doesnt matter] and 'steam in'...

If the focus of your chi-sao is on sticking to arms and controlling them,chasing them, using wristing [ bad word] to do downward deflections then strike in 1-2 beats , you wont develop this ability..I know first hand ; ) chi-sao is close enough to hit with a fist while using the elbows in to achieve an arm angle sufficient to allow a line that can defelct the arm of the partner at the same time , without trying to stick or feel, but strike and simultaneously cover counter entry
along your c line...

.....If you trap a guy and charge hitting one handed, say like your arguing with a guy and after he swings at your jaw and [misses!] ...and as a result overturns his flank to you , you use a pak sao & elbow trap. Theres little force, you can eye gouge with your thumb a classic wsl ..You can strike but theres little force and guys tend to instinctively cover up and drop their heads. Continuing the trapping charge to a nearby wall or parked car, then your striking gets more force when they cant evade as easily.
They will still cover up if they can so you use the chum kil lateral steps to maintain your attack sideways, you can throw kidney punches to guys trying to turn their bodies so their faces/heads arent catching strikes...or short upper cuts...under the raised arms.

a good punch is usually all you need, but a good punch is the whole body, so it has to be connected , vt does this connection well without offering flanking counters due to the 'facing' nature or squared shoulders , while being at angles or trying to turn the attacker.

[sihing]

depends on the fighting style. and you are assuming that the one will connect.

not that i think punches should be weak, but you could also argue what good is a powerful super punch if you can't connect?

this is the style that some boxers and karate stylists use. the super punch. in boxing, typically most guys are just itching to use the hook from the rear hand. karate stylists want to do the powerful super punch too.

WC is about flowing and continuous hits. not that we want to punch weakly, but the style of fighting is about continuation.

its up to you which style you want to go with.

i know everyone will love when i say this, but it all goes back to hard styles (starting and stopping, rigid) vs soft styles (smooth, continuous)

I try not to assume anything really when in combat, as assumption requires thinking as a precursor, why would you be "thinking" during a fight? What I like about WC striking is that if the first one misses, the 2nd is right behind it, since there is no torque loading or swinging of the shoulders, the other hand is right there to adjust. The power is coming from the lower body, legs, connected to the hips, so it is like having a small hand gun with the power of a rifle or shotgun, so we can hit hard and adapt and not commit like one does in a "super punch". Also, one should be using listening skills if contact is made, which is part of the purpose of chi sau and sensitivity drills, it enhances adaptablility which is needed more when using a contact method such as WC. So in response, it is still more efficient to be able to KO with 1 strike than 2, the key thing is commitment and adaptability.

In WC I find the non telegraphic nature of it, and the idea that we don't strike until the position is secured or closer in, makes it effective and harder to stop. At the least, the aggressive nature, forward moving aspect of WC makes the other guy more defensive which is always a plus in a fight.

When ever I've sparred other guys, or seen my training partners/students spar we always get them moving backwards, as most cannot handle our ability to function closer in, while maintain control and ability. Now the problem with this in a competition is that a strategy can be developed against it, so it won't always work in that environment, but on the street, where no foreknowledge of the fight is present, it can work more effectively.

James

[chusauli]

No arguments here.

FWIW, my instructor Rick Spain went through a period trying to match or beat this "record" (I think it was actually 8.3 per second, FWIW). He got up around there, and apparently the old man told him, "ah, but did they measure the power of the punches?", which presumably they did at Boston U, though one wonders how if you are just punching in air - as James says, actually hitting something with penetration would have to slow things down.

He said he found the experience a bit of a waste of time, as the constant concentration on speed meant he neglected other aspects of his training, and that overall nothing really improved.

Some WT guys claimed they could hit faster than this (this being the times of the TWC/WT feud), and the Speed Man, John La Tourette, came out claiming he could hit up to 12 times a second, but it was all stuff like fist/wrist/elbow/elbow/shoulder/... and none of it really looked like it would hurt anyone.


As I recall, Rick Spain did 10 punches per second and did beat that record.

[Pacman]

I try not to assume anything really when in combat, as assumption requires thinking as a precursor, why would you be "thinking" during a fight? What I like about WC striking is that if the first one misses, the 2nd is right behind it, since there is no torque loading or swinging of the shoulders, the other hand is right there to adjust. The power is coming from the lower body, legs, connected to the hips, so it is like having a small hand gun with the power of a rifle or shotgun, so we can hit hard and adapt and not commit like one does in a "super punch". Also, one should be using listening skills if contact is made, which is part of the purpose of chi sau and sensitivity drills, it enhances adaptablility which is needed more when using a contact method such as WC. So in response, it is still more efficient to be able to KO with 1 strike than 2, the key thing is commitment and adaptability.

In WC I find the non telegraphic nature of it, and the idea that we don't strike until the position is secured or closer in, makes it effective and harder to stop. At the least, the aggressive nature, forward moving aspect of WC makes the other guy more defensive which is always a plus in a fight.

When ever I've sparred other guys, or seen my training partners/students spar we always get them moving backwards, as most cannot handle our ability to function closer in, while maintain control and ability. Now the problem with this in a competition is that a strategy can be developed against it, so it won't always work in that environment, but on the street, where no foreknowledge of the fight is present, it can work more effectively.

James



help me out im confused. before you said


Isn't it more efficient to throw 1 instead of 3?

but now it seems like you advocate WCs continuous nature?

[Lee Chiang Po]

It does not pay to attempt chain punching from a square off. It is used in certain situations only. I would use what appeared to be a backhand strike at an opponent who would instinctually throw up his hand to defend his face. I would grab his wrist and jerk him hard into my punch with the other hand, followed then by another 2 in rapid succession. I can still throw 120 punches in only 30 seconds, and any one of them could render you unconscious if connected on target, which would be the point of the chin. When jerked off your balance you can not avoid being struck on the point of your chin. It is the weakest point of your entire head, and it does not take a lot of power to render you unconsious.
Only a fool challenges an opponent. Never allow him to realize your intentions until you are punching him in the face. If you go jumping around and talking s--t he will be fully aware of your intentions and that will make your job way much harder. It can be somewhat like a gun fight. It all comes down to fires the first shot.

[sihing]

help me out im confused. before you said



but now it seems like you advocate WCs continuous nature?

My point was more in relation to the amount of punches needed to get the job done (power), and how in some WC systems the amount of punches per second is the goal (speed). WC is based on efficiency, so using "1 punch instead of 3" (as an example, according to rules of efficiency) is what it is about. I know that 1 punch will not do the trick some of the time, so it is important to be able to throw more, and WC provides that option, but like everything there is a limit to how effective that will be, as Sanjoro's post pointed out.

James

[Yoshiyahu]

This is a great discussion. I use to wonder about this when I was younger and found it useless at first. Until I begin to practice it by drilling, Chi Sau and Sparring.


In drilling you can endlessly do Tan Da, Pak Da, Bil Da, Jum Da and other attack and defense techniques. But in Chi Sau you are connected and your opponent can feel your intent. So if you are freestyling you will be able to utilize Tan Da and Pak da less in chi sau. But this is totally dependant on skill level of your partner. In Sparring Your ability to use this will be even less than it is in Chi Sau. Because if your really Sparring and have an opponet who is really struggling and try to control you so he can hit you then you will not be able to endless Tan Da every right cross.

When doing Tan Da and Pak da there are safe ways to apply it and not so safe ways to apply. Inside the opponents guards does leave you open from outward attacks. But if you use it tan da to open his guards then it works well for entry techniques. Me I choose Tan Da and Pak Da from the outside or outer flank to strike my opponents face. Its easier because you can turn his force away from your centerline while your attacking line is facing him. I call this the safe way to attack and defend. Although I train both.

When your actually fighting using attack and defend depends on timing which someone else mentions. But you will not be able to attack and defend everytime someone strikes at you.

Lets say we are fighting. I throw four punch combo really fast. The Average WChunner is not gonna be able to Tan Da all Four punches. Even if you use your other angles such as Tan-Gan-Jum-Bil while striking. If I switch up from one hand to other you may not have enough time to throw that punch out. Sometimes punching may provide an opening that you are covering. So you have to be wise in utilizing this technique. Its not be all to end all. Its a technique just like Tan Sau and Fok Sau and chainpunch. I hope you think all you need to do in a fight is front kick, chainpunch and tan sau from time to time. There is much more to your WC than those simple moves.

Any way drill Attack and Defend consecutively free style for 20 minutes with a partner who will feed you slow attacks at first progressing to faster attacks.

Use the following techniques to protect your gates.
1.Lop Da
2.Tan Da
3.Jut Da
4.Bil Da
5.Pak Da
6.Jum Da
7.Gan Da

Also I feel that simultaneous attack and defend work well with entry level techniques. Use Tan Da or Wu Da to turn your opponets attacking line away from you so you can hit him the face but he can't use his other arm to attack. Use pak da to drop his guard to strike. Or lop da to move an arm out the way. Also concerning timing with attack and defense. The best time to use it when you got a guy who overextends or over committs. But most skilled fighters won't do this too much. Unless they get anxious or sloppy.

But inconclusion Attack and Defend is a tool we should drill more and use...Its very great technique. Along with stop kicks and stop hits. But even stop hits and stop kicks can use as Attack and Defend techniques.



***WC hands do not actually block but they redirect energy. So actually you are not blocing but intercepting force and turning it off.

[Pacman]

have you learned the sup yee san sic or 12 seperate hand techniques


This is a great discussion. I use to wonder about this when I was younger and found it useless at first. Until I begin to practice it by drilling, Chi Sau and Sparring.


In drilling you can endlessly do Tan Da, Pak Da, Bil Da, Jum Da and other attack and defense techniques. But in Chi Sau you are connected and your opponent can feel your intent. So if you are freestyling you will be able to utilize Tan Da and Pak da less in chi sau. But this is totally dependant on skill level of your partner. In Sparring Your ability to use this will be even less than it is in Chi Sau. Because if your really Sparring and have an opponet who is really struggling and try to control you so he can hit you then you will not be able to endless Tan Da every right cross.

When doing Tan Da and Pak da there are safe ways to apply it and not so safe ways to apply. Inside the opponents guards does leave you open from outward attacks. But if you use it tan da to open his guards then it works well for entry techniques. Me I choose Tan Da and Pak Da from the outside or outer flank to strike my opponents face. Its easier because you can turn his force away from your centerline while your attacking line is facing him. I call this the safe way to attack and defend. Although I train both.

When your actually fighting using attack and defend depends on timing which someone else mentions. But you will not be able to attack and defend everytime someone strikes at you.

Lets say we are fighting. I throw four punch combo really fast. The Average WChunner is not gonna be able to Tan Da all Four punches. Even if you use your other angles such as Tan-Gan-Jum-Bil while striking. If I switch up from one hand to other you may not have enough time to throw that punch out. Sometimes punching may provide an opening that you are covering. So you have to be wise in utilizing this technique. Its not be all to end all. Its a technique just like Tan Sau and Fok Sau and chainpunch. I hope you think all you need to do in a fight is front kick, chainpunch and tan sau from time to time. There is much more to your WC than those simple moves.

Any way drill Attack and Defend consecutively free style for 20 minutes with a partner who will feed you slow attacks at first progressing to faster attacks.

Use the following techniques to protect your gates.
1.Lop Da
2.Tan Da
3.Jut Da
4.Bil Da
5.Pak Da
6.Jum Da
7.Gan Da

Also I feel that simultaneous attack and defend work well with entry level techniques. Use Tan Da or Wu Da to turn your opponets attacking line away from you so you can hit him the face but he can't use his other arm to attack. Use pak da to drop his guard to strike. Or lop da to move an arm out the way. Also concerning timing with attack and defense. The best time to use it when you got a guy who overextends or over committs. But most skilled fighters won't do this too much. Unless they get anxious or sloppy.

But inconclusion Attack and Defend is a tool we should drill more and use...Its very great technique. Along with stop kicks and stop hits. But even stop hits and stop kicks can use as Attack and Defend techniques.



***WC hands do not actually block but they redirect energy. So actually you are not blocing but intercepting force and turning it off.

[JPinAZ]

When your actually fighting using attack and defend depends on timing which someone else mentions. But you will not be able to attack and defend everytime someone strikes at you.

Lets say we are fighting. I throw four punch combo really fast. The Average WChunner is not gonna be able to Tan Da all Four punches. Even if you use your other angles such as Tan-Gan-Jum-Bil while striking. If I switch up from one hand to other you may not have enough time to throw that punch out. Sometimes punching may provide an opening that you are covering. So you have to be wise in utilizing this technique. Its not be all to end all. Its a technique just like Tan Sau and Fok Sau and chainpunch. I hope you think all you need to do in a fight is front kick, chainpunch and tan sau from time to time. There is much more to your WC than those simple moves.


I agree, you will be hard pressed to defend against a 4 punch combo with 4gate blocking for all 4 (ie, tan da, biu da, caan da, whatever). This would be chasing hands and technique vs. technique mindset, which IMO is not what WCK is about.

In WCK, after we deal with the first punch, IF using 4 gate blocking principals (tan da or whatever), we now have a bridge with our opponent. To not take advantage of that bridge connecting to our opponents COG and effect it would be a waste of a bridge. One should use that first engagement to start to setup to take the opponent's balance and slow his timing so he can't get off all 4 shots (if the first da doesn't really cut it, which in most cases it won't unless against a scrub). The second shot should be all he is even able to follow up with before we are in true position to break his structure and body alignment down and slow his actions to a crawl.

Of course nothing is ever perfect in a fight, and not everything goes as planned! But my main point is, our main goal shouldn't be blocking every punch thrown at us (whether simultaneous attack/defend or not). Nor should it be in thinking I use technique a, b, c and d against attacks f, g, h and I.
Our main goal should be to take away his abilities to throw punches in the first place with superior positioning and control of thier COG & parts and slowing down his actions (controlling the time and space of the fight) so we can strike more effectively and end the fight

Jonathan

[k gledhill]

tan da..... is one arm
jum da ...is one arm

etc...

all depends where you are to execute it/them, angles and tactics baby :D

[Yoshiyahu]

have you learned the sup yee san sic or 12 seperate hand techniques



Excellent Insight JPinaz I thoroughly enjoyed your opinion...Please feel free to share more!

Pacman my Sup Yee San Sik is different than yours. But I would love to learn yours too. I been looking for some videos that show the Sumnung San Sik that Rene Ritche books illustrates,

Our San Sik is as follows

1.Front Punch (Torque)
2.Parrallel Punch (Three Punch combo)
3.Continous Parrallel Punch (Flow from one punch to the other)
4.Down Punch
5.Down Side Punch
6.Continous Down Side Punch
7.Side Punch
8.Rotating Side Punch
9.Moving(Stepping) Side Punch
10.Moving(Stepping) Rotating Side Punch
11.Chain Punch (Three combo)
12.Continous Chain Punch

Also we have additional Drills that we do as well.
1.Stepping Chain Punch w/Front Kick
2. Tan Da (Tan Sau w/Punch)
3. Jum Da (Jum Sau w/Punch)
4.Pak Da (Pak Sau w/Punch)
5.Baliong
6.Leg Lifts
7.Front Kick and Hold
8.Circle outside Kick and Hold
9.Circle Inside Kick and Hold
10.Elbow to raising knee
11.Defensive Drill
12.Moving Gan Sau


There is more...but i will stop here....

[Pacman]

yeah SN took YKS' techniques and combined it with the techniques he learned from Cheung Bo and made his 12 san sik from that.

You have a bunch that I have no clue about and I'm sure you would say the same about my list!




Excellent Insight JPinaz I thoroughly enjoyed your opinion...Please feel free to share more!

Pacman my Sup Yee San Sik is different than yours. But I would love to learn yours too. I been looking for some videos that show the Sumnung San Sik that Rene Ritche books illustrates,

Our San Sik is as follows

1.Front Punch (Torque)
2.Parrallel Punch (Three Punch combo)
3.Continous Parrallel Punch (Flow from one punch to the other)
4.Down Punch
5.Down Side Punch
6.Continous Down Side Punch
7.Side Punch
8.Rotating Side Punch
9.Moving(Stepping) Side Punch
10.Moving(Stepping) Rotating Side Punch
11.Chain Punch (Three combo)
12.Continous Chain Punch

Also we have additional Drills that we do as well.
1.Stepping Chain Punch w/Front Kick
2. Tan Da (Tan Sau w/Punch)
3. Jum Da (Jum Sau w/Punch)
4.Pak Da (Pak Sau w/Punch)
5.Baliong
6.Leg Lifts
7.Front Kick and Hold
8.Circle outside Kick and Hold
9.Circle Inside Kick and Hold
10.Elbow to raising knee
11.Defensive Drill
12.Moving Gan Sau


There is more...but i will stop here....

[Yoshiyahu]

On the contrary your list is way similiar to mines...

Let me draw some comparisons. Our names are different but some of the actions are the same...Please the list will be some what jumbled as I pull words and combine them

Small List

a. Front punch (Meridan Punch)
b. Side Punch (Arrow Punch)
c.Rotating Side Punch (Single Dragon)
d. Parralell Punch (Side)

Your other techniques we do not have in our sup san sik:


These we do practice but not in our san sik:

I. Yin Yang Palms (High Low Gan Sau)

II. Outside & Inside Joining Hand (Kwun Sau inside the body or outside the flanks)

III. Detaining Join Arm (Huen Da) or (Kau Sau)

I am going by my feeble memory of your techniques. Trying to match the names correctly. I believe I am correct. But alot similiarites. An We practice Trianlge Palms in one of our two man drills. But freestyle persay.

I pray I am able to help you understand me?

[Pacman]

from the way that you describe it, i think it seems that my 12 san sik contains more movements.

for example your san sik has meridian punch, 3 combo chung choi, and continuous chung choi as 3 different san sik.

my san sik considers continuous chung choi and meridian punch as one san sik.

same goes for your parallel punches and side punches. essentially the same move but separated into different san sik.

btw, yin yang palms is actually tan sau + bong sau.


On the contrary your list is way similiar to mines...

Let me draw some comparisons. Our names are different but some of the actions are the same...Please the list will be some what jumbled as I pull words and combine them

Small List

a. Front punch (Meridan Punch)
b. Side Punch (Arrow Punch)
c.Rotating Side Punch (Single Dragon)
d. Parralell Punch (Side)

Your other techniques we do not have in our sup san sik:


These we do practice but not in our san sik:

I. Yin Yang Palms (High Low Gan Sau)

II. Outside & Inside Joining Hand (Kwun Sau inside the body or outside the flanks)

III. Detaining Join Arm (Huen Da) or (Kau Sau)

I am going by my feeble memory of your techniques. Trying to match the names correctly. I believe I am correct. But alot similiarites. An We practice Trianlge Palms in one of our two man drills. But freestyle persay.

I pray I am able to help you understand me?

[Yoshiyahu]

from the way that you describe it, i think it seems that my 12 san sik contains more movements.

for example your san sik has meridian punch, 3 combo chung choi, and continuous chung choi as 3 different san sik.

my san sik considers continuous chung choi and meridian punch as one san sik.

same goes for your parallel punches and side punches. essentially the same move but separated into different san sik.

btw, yin yang palms is actually tan sau + bong sau.



Interesting. I want to get a video up one day when I get a camera...Does anyone else have their San Sik up on video yet???

Yea i tried to give a crude explanation of comparison. I think i got yin yang palms and inside and outside mixed up...