Is trapping only good for offense?

[phantom]

There was once an article in black Belt magazine on when to use and avoid using trapping. It said that trapping works well for offense to help you break through an opponent's defense. However, it is poor for defense. Many people claim this is especially true against a boxing type punch. However, one wing chun guy claimed that trapping can work against a boxer's punch if you simultanteously step to the side of it, which would put you in a good position to counterattack. What are your thoughts about this? Thanks in avance.

[k gledhill]

wow thats confusing to write, had to delete it all .... Just ATTACK
never mind trapping :D

[Pacman]

one of the fundamental principles of wing chun is that offense and defense are performed in the same movement.

[t_niehoff]

There was once an article in black Belt magazine on when to use and avoid using trapping. It said that trapping works well for offense to help you break through an opponent's defense. However, it is poor for defense. Many people claim this is especially true against a boxing type punch. However, one wing chun guy claimed that trapping can work against a boxer's punch if you simultanteously step to the side of it, which would put you in a good position to counterattack. What are your thoughts about this? Thanks in avance.

See for yourself. That's the ONLY way to know. It doesn't matter what someone else can do, what matters is: CAN YOU DO IT? Get a partner with some decent boxing skills, tell him to go 80-100% trying to knock your block off, and see.

[k gledhill]

Because we want to attack the guy and put them on a defensive reaction, we may/will encounter arms flailing at our strikes or make contact with a strike from them...as we attack.
We need to have a trapping action/s that will either allow a strike/s or a trap to shut down the opponents ability to function and counter us by facing us and working square on.

Our own tactical movements are designed to put us outside either side of a 'facing' 2 armed/leg attack. We learn to respond to the 'which side do i move to' instinctively by doing chi-sao drills involving the most important aspect, random attacking entry and counter attacks by partners. One does 1/2 step forwards while the response angles and strikes ....the side we angle to is the leading line of force ...we do the line of force by attacking with a tanstrike, we counter strike the tanstrike with a...jumstrike...strike versus strike.

Each arm is trained to be a deflecting strike, both maintaining an attacking line relative to our centers and striking inwards , each trying to remove the others striking ability by displacing it off the lines of entry [ centerlines] just a a drill.



We try to turn the opponent so they have turned away from us, by trapping their ability
example elbow is controlled with one hand so the guy cant reface...we can further trap them by pining them against a jets bulkhead from behind...completely shutting them down.
Or by the barrage of a constant attacking cycles to force them to offer flanks by turning or ducking away or offering weak sides or no fight at all...we fight 1/2 the person.

We don't do lead leg centerline chain punch attacks down guys centers [ inside both their arms] for the simple reason that the opponent has either arm to swing into our center....and we cant 'cut' their arms functions with ours because we have to 'leave our own attacking line' to chase hands that are coming at us from our sides ...randomly...fast...not good. We become punch bag that faces the punches with an arm extended towards the incoming punch with only one arm available to strike....many train to simply punch with no duplicity of strike deflection available to them , simply because they aren't in a correct position to even utilize the elbow principles...ie they parry with one hand in a block and have to think of a striking fist as the response....if that hand is parried by the attacker your 'turned' 'blocked' and have a hand way off the attacking centerline chasing a punch that can re-chamber instantly...while standing square on to their attacking momentum...

bad

By using trapping strikes on entry, we can momentarily gain a strike which may lead to another or simply allow the attacking momentum to build to full flow..

this flow is a concept of vt attacking, how to achieve the ability lies in the system,
a flowing delivery of attacking actions with trapping ability to shut down the opponents actions. This can be acting [ attacking] or reacting [ counter attacking ].

The prime trapping target is the elbow, ergo we place so much on our own ability to recover the elbows from traps [ bil gee] , learning to fight our own trapping actions...why bil gee was :rolleyes: meant to be kept to students and not the public.


We can be trapped too :D choked etc...

[-木叶-]

It depends on the situation.

Will you dodge if a huge train is bearing down on you, yes
Will you trap if a marshmallow man is punching you, yes

[RGVWingChun]

in my experience against the boxing type is that, especially a jab, they throw it out there and it pulls back...so there isn't much energy that they give to use a trap or gum sau of sorts. You almost have to wait for a very committed attack, take control of it and then if they throw a second attack, you can try to use that for a trap...but don't look for a boxer to leave their hands out there....I like the advice given above....ATTACK and use the lin siu dai da principle....simultaneous attack and defense in the sense that your defensive hand is also an attack hand....

Wing Chun, at least I think, doesn't alway have to trap to be Wing Chun....sometimes its that quick taking of the centerline that can do the trick...just don't play their game and you'll be fine.

my humble opinion,

Moses

[Pacman]

thats right. not every move has to be simultaneous offense/defense but keep that mentality and you will be a step ahead of people who have the block then punch mentality

dont be over eager in thinking you must trap or you must do this or that. try to let things come naturally from training

[grasshopper 2.0]

Ya I agree - trapping isn't a type of move imo. It's not something that u can perform actively like a front kick. "Trapping" is something that just happens given the situation. Really, I don't even agree with the concept associated with the word "trapping" - it's like calling it a "hadouken" in street fighter lol but really u can't force it to happen. It just does, if at all. Whoever used the word gave it "trapping" its own identity, as if its a technique or type of attack. It's none of those. Its just u attacking and if his arms get caught up so u can hit him. Sorry....this is horribly worded post....I just ate a huge steak.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Trapping is not limited to the hands, but can utilize the entire body. IMHO trapping is more about positioning than a specific hand position. A good trap puts you in a position where you can strike or control your opponent but they need to move or alter position in order to strike or control you. This can be done with a lot more than just hands.

[k gledhill]

every action we do ...like it or not incorporates, attacking/deflecting actions....the primary strikes we throw are trained for this in Dan chisao ...etc.... not the wrists ;) the elbows and forearms.

trapping is preventing or disrupting a position from stopping our attacking action/s...If we train to hold our centerline with a man sao, the traps can present themselves by simply being one side of the line or the other before us...an elbow passes by after a grab/swing, we didnt look for it but the elbow is right in front of our hand so we 'trap' it or stop it from returning quick enough back to their working stance....

stepping on a foot , while trapping an elbow against a wall....

Using the leading shin to 'trap' another calf/shin against a chair/seat....etc...

I agree the word 'trap' is misleading to imply we are lookig for traps etc...

we are really trying to keep attacking, so the trap is a hand chase to some degree, unless you are wanting to 'control' rather than strike ...controlling can lead to a different training oucome in chi-sao...sticking becomes a leader for control, rather than striking training first ....one will never allow the other to be developed :rolleyes:

while one will not require 'controlling' as much :D just

ATTACKING

[Pacman]

Ya I agree - trapping isn't a type of move imo. It's not something that u can perform actively like a front kick. "Trapping" is something that just happens given the situation. Really, I don't even agree with the concept associated with the word "trapping" - it's like calling it a "hadouken" in street fighter lol but really u can't force it to happen. It just does, if at all. Whoever used the word gave it "trapping" its own identity, as if its a technique or type of attack. It's none of those. Its just u attacking and if his arms get caught up so u can hit him. Sorry....this is horribly worded post....I just ate a huge steak.

there actually are techniques for trapping, or pinning, an opponents limb to his body

[Lee Chiang Po]

I find that the vast majority of individuals that you will have a confrontation with will attempt to use a boxing stance and jab and punch at you. You will run up on few individuals that are trained in some other form of martial art. Many years ago I was asked to give a short demonstration of trapping. Trapping is not always easily done, but if you can get in close and avoid being struck in doing so, trapping can be fairly easy. The individual I was to demonstrate on was about 6 feet tall. I am only a bit over 5 feet tall. He was at least 40 pounds heavier than myself. I let him toss a few punches at me, then I sort of lunged at him, making him defend against what he thought was a rush. I did this a few times, then after he threw a defensive punch to keep me back I dropped and rushed him for real. I took hold of his lead hand, the left jabbing hand, forced it across his body as I shoved him backwards and off balance. Stepping on his lead foot made him lose balance too. As he tried to defend with his right hand I grabbed and pulled it across his left arm, then sort of scissored his left arm across his right, which then trapped both arms and left him in great pain and a complete disability toward defending himself. I could have taken him down on his back and struck him in the face repeatedly with no possible way for him to defend himself. This did not look real pretty, and you may not have recognized it as WC, but it was indeed.
Fighting is a lot of things in one. I would never attempt to take a defensive positions directly. The opponent always has the advantage here. You have to draw him out of his defensive position. I like to do this with un-nerving sounds and movements that suggest that I am in full attact. If the guy things you are running in on him he will throw punches at the air. You can make him do this a few times before he gets wise to you, but that is all it takes to time him and follow his weapons back in. I like to grab an arm with both hands as I rush in on him and this makes him easier to control. A strong jerk can pull him into a strong punch or you can even use it to spin him around, giving you his back. A foot into the back of a knee will than take him down, and if the foot remains in the back of the knee as it is on the ground you have him pinned down for a flurry of blows to the back of the head.

[Firehawk4]

What if the Boxer uses his elbows to like Mauy Thaiboxeing Elbows ?

[Knifefighter]

The theoretical, pretend, non-fighting force is strong on this thread.

[taai gihk yahn]

The theoretical, pretend, non-fighting force is strong on this thread.

you will be assimilated...

[mawali]

There was once an article in black Belt magazine on when to use and avoid using trapping. It said that trapping works well for offense to help you break through an opponent's defense. However, it is poor for defense. Many people claim this is especially true against a boxing type punch. However, one wing chun guy claimed that trapping can work against a boxer's punch if you simultanteously step to the side of it, which would put you in a good position to counterattack. What are your thoughts about this? Thanks in avance.

For me, trapping is neither offense nor defense. It is an intermediate strategy to stop or delay from an offensive manuever, or defensive, if the fistic onslaught is overwhelming. With trapping comes the 'sensing' of power (from the other) and how it may be stopped or blended to reverse the flow.
I phrase it by saying when an army attacks using artillery, it does so to soften the enemy. Trapping can be perceived as:
1. sensing what is going on
2. not being there (dispersing)
3. turing your own force(s) to flank the oncoming force

[k gledhill]

Ive used trapping a few times in street-fights, some bar fights ...it comes from taking advantage of things rather than a plan...

[Lee Chiang Po]

Concerning elbows, you will find few people using them in a street confrontation. An elbow strike comes from a weapon that is only about a foot long at best. Unless you have an exceptional reach. Then it might be an inch or 2 longer. If you can avoid a punch thrown by an outstretched arm, then an elbow is a feeble weapon and more easily dodged. If you are being man handled from behind, elbows left and right in rapid succession work well, but forward elbows are a thing I would seldom use unless my hands were hindered in some way. As in if someone had hold of my hands, which in my memory has never occured.
Unless you are fighting a pure wimp you can fully expect to get roughed up in any real fight. Just a typical individual will attempt to use a boxing form normally, and if you are not quick and serious he will likely knock you around pretty good. Depending on how big and mad he is. However, if you can trap an arm across his body and force your way in on him he will lose the ability to use his fists effectively. But, you can be close enough to kiss him and still use the WC punch right up the center line.

[AdrianK]

There was once an article in black Belt magazine on when to use and avoid using trapping. It said that trapping works well for offense to help you break through an opponent's defense. However, it is poor for defense. Many people claim this is especially true against a boxing type punch. However, one wing chun guy claimed that trapping can work against a boxer's punch if you simultanteously step to the side of it, which would put you in a good position to counterattack. What are your thoughts about this? Thanks in avance.


That article sounds like trash. What does/doesn't work in terms of trapping can never be explained in absolute terms.

You can't say, trapping will always work if you simultaneously step to the side of a boxers punch.

Trapping works based on your knowledge, skill, understanding of your own body, structure, and physical ability, versus your opponents knowledge, skill, understanding of their own body, structure, and physical ability.

If your physical ability to trap is better than their physical ability to punch, you will probably gain the trap. Assuming you can adapt to what they follow up with.

[Sihing73]

Concerning elbows, you will find few people using them in a street confrontation. An elbow strike comes from a weapon that is only about a foot long at best. Unless you have an exceptional reach. Then it might be an inch or 2 longer. If you can avoid a punch thrown by an outstretched arm, then an elbow is a feeble weapon and more easily dodged. If you are being man handled from behind, elbows left and right in rapid succession work well, but forward elbows are a thing I would seldom use unless my hands were hindered in some way. As in if someone had hold of my hands, which in my memory has never occured.

Hello,

Elbows are a "feeble weapon" :eek:. Sorry but seems like you have either never been in a real right or have no understanding of using elbows.

Elbow strikes are indeed close range weapons and one must be close to use them. However, a good elbow strike can be a devasting weapon in terms of striking power. One can also strike multiple times with an elbow, much like a jab. Horizontal and vertical forward elbows can really hurt when used properly. Of course, you must be close and know what you are doing too.

You can also use an elbow to apply pressure in applying, say an arm bar.

Of course, Elbows are not the magic bullet and certainly have their limitations as well as anything else. But to dismiss them as "feeble" is IMHO a mistake and shows the extent of ones street righting experience.

[goju]

melchor menchor tore danny steel up with a front elbow he used like a jab in their match

trapping works defensively and in wing chun like in the styles that advocate trapping the legs are used to up root your oppponent while your trapping

in other words your kicking the **** out of his lower legs especially his shins and knees while your traping him it will be hard for you opponent to pay attention to your hands and your feet moving at the same time

alot of wing chun masters use the hands but not enough leg attack the real good wing chun guys use both

[Lee Chiang Po]

Sihing 73, I made my living as a printer for over 35 years, but for at least 30 of those years I always had a second job as a bouncer or some such related jobs. I would imagine that I had a real fight at least once every week or so, sometimes more. With some of my jobs I have had to scuffle with people all night long. I have probably been hit more than anyone on this forum in that time, and I can honestly say I know how an elbow feels in the face. The elbow can be used very well, but as a face on weapon it is almost useless. Well, it is against me anyway. It is only about a foot long, and when thrown it has to come from your side, which means that you can not possibly apply your full weight to the thrust. It is an emergency weapon at best, and should be considered as such.

[k gledhill]

funny you should mention it , but a guy tried to hit me with an elbow ...it cut my lower lip [still have the scar] from my tooth coming through..but I didnt feel anything else either...
Another time fighting a guy used an elbow and cut me over my right eye ..tons of blood ,
made my shirt all red, but didnt stop me taking him down :D... elbows cut a lot.

Strictly speaking Vt doesnt have elbow strikes...the bil gee elbows is to remove wrist grabs
..sure you can use it but you break the 'dont offer your elbow' rule ...plus you lose striking distances for a feeble cutting elbow...

I dropped a guy once with a lan sao /elbow....ko but I waited for him to come at me , then stepped in...as we clashed I was calm and stopped the idea of a fist, then a plam...as we closed the distance time slowed...until I was moving slowly and just slammed my lower forearm/ elbow directly into his face...he went down and hit a table as he fell with his head...

I'll never forget a couple of older guys, sounde like they where from ireland from the accents....quietly sitting at the table the guy just slammed his head on, they didnt move, just calmly discussing the fight before ,..."In our day we would put the boot in"

Im like standing over the guy , adrenalin kicking in and these 2 like the old guys in the muppets, heckling from the sidelines hahah :D

Elbows are devastating if they catch you...otherwise they will cut you up.
:D:D

[LSWCTN1]

Sihing 73, I made my living as a printer for over 35 years, but for at least 30 of those years I always had a second job as a bouncer or some such related jobs. I would imagine that I had a real fight at least once every week or so, sometimes more. With some of my jobs I have had to scuffle with people all night long. I have probably been hit more than anyone on this forum in that time, and I can honestly say I know how an elbow feels in the face. The elbow can be used very well, but as a face on weapon it is almost useless. Well, it is against me anyway. It is only about a foot long, and when thrown it has to come from your side, which means that you can not possibly apply your full weight to the thrust. It is an emergency weapon at best, and should be considered as such.

perhaps elbows are not that great from someone if done 'accidentally' but when someone is trained to throw them and connects with it cleanly i would suggest that its time for a nap.

they're not a boxers jab, that isnt designed for a ko. they wreak havoc!

plus the elbow has very few nerve endings, so it hurts the guy throwing them less

the whole point is that you CAN apply the full weight to them, in the way a boxer does with a 'round' punch

if you are using a rounders bat for fighting, would you prod with it or swing with it?!?!

blunt force trauma!

[Sihing73]

Sihing 73, I made my living as a printer for over 35 years, but for at least 30 of those years I always had a second job as a bouncer or some such related jobs. I would imagine that I had a real fight at least once every week or so, sometimes more. With some of my jobs I have had to scuffle with people all night long. I have probably been hit more than anyone on this forum in that time, and I can honestly say I know how an elbow feels in the face. The elbow can be used very well, but as a face on weapon it is almost useless. Well, it is against me anyway. It is only about a foot long, and when thrown it has to come from your side, which means that you can not possibly apply your full weight to the thrust. It is an emergency weapon at best, and should be considered as such.

Hello,

Your experience is your own and I will not dispute that.

However, you can use an elbow from the front and you can apply your body weight to the strike, ime ;) You can also use the elbow to compliment a take down in several different ways.

Of course an elbow is a short range weapon and if you try to apply it from outside you will encounter many problems.

Again, elbows are not the magic bullet for ending fights, but they can be used effectively. They do allow one to strike very hard while feeling little pain from the user, kind of like a palm strike is usually able to strike harder as well.

You know a lot of argument goes over what system or technique is better and to me most of that is nonsense. The mental conditioning is, imho, most important and often overlooked.

For eample, a gun is usually agreed upon as an effective weapon and most perceptions is that the larger the caliber the more deadly. Yet in the hands of the right person a .22 can be far more deadly than a .44. It is how one applies those tools that is important. As well as the mental toughness of the person doing the shooting. There are cases where very good "target" shooters choked when faced with shooting a real live breathing assailant. (Perhaps like ring champions who were unwilling or unable to seriously hurt their opponent-not a slam on ring fighters just an observation).

If you are unwilling to inflict serious harm then you should stay at home. Likewise if you are unprepared to accept serious harm you should stay at home as well. Despite what some seem to think it is highly unlikely that you will not be hit or even injured during a real fight. If you cannot accept that and are unprepared to fight through the hurt then you are not ready for the street. Now in some ways this is exactly where fighting in the ring can be an advantage. The more experience you have in being hit and continuing to fight on the more prepared you will be not only physically but mentally as well. However, to qualify this statement I am not saying one needs to fight in the ring or gym in order to be able to defend themselves on the street, as I have said before if you have the time, money and inclination to gym fight then so much the better.

Just like being shot, it is not often the weapon applied but how the body reacts to the weapon. For example there are cases where a person was shot multiple times and still killed their attacker, sometimes with a knife not a gun. One of the things stressed to us at the Police Academy was the need to fight on even when it seemed hopeless. If you accepted that you were done then you were.

IMHO a lot of MA is a self fulfilling prophecy; if you believe something will not work then doubtless it won't but if you train hard and believe you can make something work it just may for you ;) of course you need to be realistic as well. Just because I think I can knock you over with a feather doesn't mean I can.........unless the feather is tied to the end of my sledgehammer :D

[donbdc]

Wing Chun is an art for hitting! Trspping is simply putting yourself in a position where yopu can hit your opponent and he can't hit you(momentarily). Weatherr that be w/ a hand technique, foot work or preferably both. And like Terrence says, it doesn't matter if someone else can do it, or says they can do it, can you do it. Train hard!
Don Berry DC RKC

[Knifefighter]

It is only about a foot long, and when thrown it has to come from your side, which means that you can not possibly apply your full weight to the thrust. It is an emergency weapon at best, and should be considered as such.

LOL @ another pretend, theoretical fighter who "worked as a bouncer"... who doesn't realize that good elbows are not thrown from the waist and that one can easily apply full body rotational force to a decent elbow.

If anything that just shows the lack of ability of anyone you faced in your supposed
"bouncer" days.

[Lee Chiang Po]

From your chosen screen name I think maybe you are the one in the fantasy world. I have not only worked as a bouncer, but have been a companion, or body guard, bag man, collector, and all around thug. I have even taken money for inflicting injury upon others. Been shot and stabbed, and have killed my fellow man. If you do not take me serious, that is your problem. You would not be the first to make that mistake. What is it? Knifefighter? LOL!!

[Yoshiyahu]

From your chosen screen name I think maybe you are the one in the fantasy world. I have not only worked as a bouncer, but have been a companion, or body guard, bag man, collector, and all around thug. I have even taken money for inflicting injury upon others. Been shot and stabbed, and have killed my fellow man. If you do not take me serious, that is your problem. You would not be the first to make that mistake. What is it? Knifefighter? LOL!!



The thng is Lee Chiang Po and Sihing73 is everyone has different backgrounds. Somepeople have never seen or felt and elbow used accurately. If I never had experience an elbow before I might agree with you Lee Chiang Po. When I first started taking WC I experience an elbow while fighting my Sidai. He was a little taller than I. An we were in the clinch. My arms were shorter so punching was easier for me. He threw a quick elbow which at the time I wasn't ready for. It got in and I wasn't able to intercept or stop it. When I got hit the fight was over. The pain was tremendous. Right in nose. Brought **** tears to my eyes. An send a shock wave of pain to my face and head. After about 10 or 15 minutes the pain subsided. But for that moment I was totally helpless and had it been actual violent confrontation against an enemy I would have been toast.


You are right when you say the elbows are to make someone release you from grabs. My Sihing also taught me this. But my Sifu also taught how to use the dropping Elbows as a offensive weapon. In my lineage there are seven elbows. In Yip man lineage there are five elbows.

I practice elbow striking.

1.Vertical upward Elbow
2.Horizontal Elbow Inside
3.Horizontal Elbow Outside
4.Diganoal Elbow
5.Side Piercing Elbow
6.Side Crashing elbow downward
7.Backward Elbow


***Now Elbows are better used with grabbing. For instance your inclose (Kissing distance). You grab your foes head pull it downward while adminstering and vertical upward elbow. Are you grab the back of head and neck and pull him forward with Horizontal Elbow. Crash right into nose or the top lip.

Also you got Vertical Elbows that work well against the Chin. To stun while you commencing your attack with fist. But you are correct Lee, Punches can be utilize in close conditions. But don't count elbows out.

I suggest to practice your Elbows you should use a Wall Bag and heavy bag 100lbs to 200lbs. Practice hitting those objects each day and your elbow striking will get heavier and heavier. But An elbow is very effective if use in the right part of the body. Not just for cutting the lip or the eye.