Eagle Claw (Questions on)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Hi Guys,

I'm speaking in reference to the book Eagle Claw Kung-Fu Northern Chinese Fist by Leung Shum.

1) All the photos start with two people in a stance position. The next frame shows a claw or some sort latched on the the wrist. It follows all the different ways to manipulate the opponent with the claw.

The qestion is how was the claw put on the the first place especially against a punch? I would expect the claw to fail most of the time as it is very difficult to latch on to someone's wrist in a clawing action.

What I'm asking has nothing to do with finger strength - which the book goes on at length about.

So what do you eagle claw guys do when your claw fails?

2) The photos show two steps involved to hit the opponent. First step is the claw, second step, hit the opponent.

My question is what's to stop the opponent from hitting you? Who cares if someone has latched on to your wrist - couldn't the person being clawed hit with the other hand? In the book, the person being clawed seemed to stand quite happily in a kunfg fu stance which indicates that the claw isn't putting them in a disadvantaged position.

3) Is it always the objective for the eagle claw stylist to claw before hitting?

I would have though that if you hit first, you stun the opponent which makes them easier to be clawed. Is the way eagle claw being taught nowadays equivalent to putting the cart before the horse.

4) Why is the person putting on a claw so front-on to the opponent? Shouldn't the clawist use more of an angle to create some distance away from the other arm and legs which are still free to hit?

5) I don't understand Figure 56h, when the clawist uses 2 hands to control a person's forearm. What is the advantage in that? Should you be controlling 2 of their limbs with one of yours then you have an extra limb to hit them?

6) Why is it none of the pictures show the person being clawed on the wrist fold their elbow into the clawist? I mean your elbow joint is still free to move when someone's holding on to your wrist.

Conversely, why is it that there are only a couple of occasions when the clawist controls the elbow?

7) Eagle claw is said to contain over 50+ forms. How many of them were introduced after the formation Ching Mo Association and why?

Maximus Materialize!

[ngokfei]

Hi. I study with sifu shum and perhaps I can answer some of your questions.

question 1 - those techniques are just "classical" examples of different theories used in EC. No way do we pose in the Cat Stance in sparring.

To initiate with a claw is very hard and I rarely if ever use it. I personally like to close range techniqeus probably because I like grappling.

Look for Sifu Shum's new book out by Tuttle which demonstrates 30 of the 108 fighting techniques. Alot more practical techniques as the use of blocks and other various skills are used before the actual joint lock or throw.

Question 2 asks about the claw and hit tactic. Yep if your fast enough you can hit the person who has a hold on your wrist. You just don't catch but also twist. But like a said speed is your best bet.

question 3: Claw before hitting. Idealy but thats not written in stone. The claw is used to control. Thats the goal of the style. Hitting first is very good. I think the idea of the photos was to be on the defense.

question 4> Yep your correct. Remember its only an intro to the style. Beginners have hard enough time going front and back.

question 5. two hands can control a limb better but its really meant to assault certain nerve points on the limb. Kind of double wammy. 2 better than 1

question 6. Again just examples on a beginners level. Boy you sure want alot for $8

question 7. Yep alot of forms were added to the EC system. I can't say that they all came from the Chin Woo association. Sifu Shum only kept a couple of these hand forms: Tan Tui, Gung Lek, Jeet Kuen, Yee Long Kuen, Saa Lok Kuen, Toa Kuen and some weapons. Presently he only requires Gung Lek and Jeet kuen for beginners as they give a good foundation.

here's what we teach as eagle claw sets.

Siu Min Jeung
Moi Fa Kuen
Law Hon Kuen
Ng Fa Pow
Tai Jo Kuen
Ngan Hang Kuen
Dai Hung Kuen
Bat Bo Choy
Dai Min Jeung
Siu Hung Kuen
Chin Lau Sai
Ng Fu Kuen
Sui Fu Ngan
Day Tong Kuen
Jui Lok Tong
Hang Kuen
Lin Kuen
Fook Fu Kuen (?)

Partner Sets
Doi Min Jeung
Yat Ling Bat
Sup Lok Da
Sam Yan Doi Kuen (3 person set)
Hop Gin Kuen (chin wu)
Yue Fei's 108 Techniques

other sets taught by Wing Kit Lam of HK
Bat Bo Lin Wan Kuen
Shaolin Choy
Lok Hop Kuen
Sui Bat Min
Dai Bat Min

The Lau's have Say Lok Kuen as being eagle claw.

hope this info helps. Remember that the book is an introduction to the style. There is alot more to it and it also has to depend upon how hard the student trains/spars.
:D

eric Hargrove
ngokfei@juno.com

[word]

yo man i got no time here but i will answer questin #2, yes the guy can hit me but the thing is when you do the trap and punch , it's at the same time bro so he can't do anything about it , the eagle claw trap and PUNCH is done in one count, not 1,2

[honorisc]

"I'm speaking in reference to the book Eagle Claw Kung-Fu Northern Chinese Fist by Leung Shum.

The qestion is how was the claw put on the the first place especially against a punch? I would expect the claw to fail most of the time as it is very difficult to latch on to someone's wrist in a clawing action.

What I'm asking has nothing to do with finger strength - which the book goes on at length about."

Practitioners train for speed and strength, I presume~The fingerstrength that you say has not anything to do with your question would be useful. If they can consistantly catch falling cement tiles,bricks, blocks, then perhaps they can catch a wrist of a punch.

"So what do you eagle claw guys do when your claw fails?" Not the Mama-Theoretically they claw again if attacked, they punch if the opponent is open, or they do a take down or throw, which the System has.

"My question is what's to stop the opponent from hitting you? Who cares if someone has latched on to your wrist - couldn't the person being clawed hit with the other hand? In the book, the person being clawed seemed to stand quite happily in a kunfg fu stance which indicates that the claw isn't putting them in a disadvantaged position."

The photographs are not See how good... They are See how to...The ideal is practiced, so that the a 'semblance of the ideal can be applied. Knowing all of the techniques perhaps over laps Need. If a claw is all you get before completion of the intended technique they perhaps start another technique which is used to deal with that kind of attack until they subdued their opponent.

"I would have though that if you hit first, you stun the opponent which makes them easier to be clawed. Is the way eagle claw being taught nowadays equivalent to putting the cart before the horse."

There is no place for stunning when your technique is superior to your opponent's and you can subdue them quickly nomatter what melee attack they use.

"4) Why is the person putting on a claw so front-on to the opponent? Shouldn't the clawist use more of an angle to create some distance away from the other arm and legs which are still free to hit?"

I No_Know, however it seems that the closer the sooner. So minimalizing the "distance away from" that you think might should be, would allow quicker dealing with the opponent.

"5) I don't understand Figure 56h, when the clawist uses 2 hands to control a person's forearm. What is the advantage in that? Should you be controlling 2 of their limbs with one of yours then you have an extra limb to hit them?"

As was indicated, the purpose of this System is non lethal; intent to control and or or subdue. While on hand can inhibit or imobilize, perhaps two are used for a take-down or to merely subdue, or to throw.

"6) Why is it none of the pictures show the person being clawed on the wrist fold their elbow into the clawist? I mean your elbow joint is still free to move when someone's holding on to your wrist."

The wrist is theoretically so controlled that it locks-out the elbow and the shoulder because of their hand wrist strength and use of their body to imobilize the whole arm from the wrist

"Conversely, why is it that there are only a couple of occasions when the clawist controls the elbow?"

If the Eagle Claw practitioner lokcks and keeps locked the arm at the wrist, then there is no need to cover the elbow.

"7) Eagle claw is said to contain over 50+ forms. How many of them were introduced after the formation Ching Mo Association and why?"

Lily Lau and her successor, 9th generation head of the Eagle Claw System might could say.

perhaps some-such

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Hi. I study with sifu shum and perhaps I can answer some of your questions.

"question 1 - those techniques are just "classical" examples of different theories used in EC. No way do we pose in the Cat Stance in sparring."

Phew! I was worried for you guys - only for a second!

"To initiate with a claw is very hard and I rarely if ever use it. I personally like to close range techniqeus probably because I like grappling."

Exactly the experience I had when I was practicing Kung Fu. Northern Mantis has a few "layers" of technique before putting on a "grap". Basically, the system teaches you to hit first, which may change to a palm (deflection), hook and if the opponent is still there (or still alive) you can choose to grab. But certainly, to grab an opponent who doesn't want to be grabbed is very very hard.

"Look for Sifu Shum's new book out by Tuttle which demonstrates 30 of the 108 fighting techniques. Alot more practical techniques as the use of blocks and other various skills are used before the actual joint lock or throw."

Will be on a look out - sounds very interesting!

"Question 2 asks about the claw and hit tactic. Yep if your fast enough you can hit the person who has a hold on your wrist. You just don't catch but also twist."

Yes twisting does put the opponennt in a disadvantaged position. But if you combine that with angling (ie getting away from the free arm) so much the better in preventing yourself from getting hit. Yes twisting the arm also creats openings for you to strike. Actually I have since check Brandon's web page and he show the use of leg locks through various stances. That's good stuff when you're in close.

"But like a said speed is your best bet."

Yeah speed is good. But if you're not the fastest fist in the East, yeah cover your strikes. If they are undetected till late, it can make up for a slower speed.

"question 3: Claw before hitting. Idealy but thats not written in stone. The claw is used to control. Thats the goal of the style."

I think that's very difficult to do. Ok lets say you want to go for control rather than the kill, do you use Tai Chi like concepts of "stickiness" to work your way into a position to claw? I dunno because from what I understand Eagle Claw predates Tai Chi and mantis.

"Hitting first is very good. I think the idea of the photos was to be on the defense."

The hits don't have to connect. In a real fight, most hits fail to strike the intended target. But if it does cause the opponent to lose concentration - fake middle hit high etc. that's good enough by me!

"question 4> Yep your correct. Remember its only an intro to the style. Beginners have hard enough time going front and back."

Ok I understand more about where the book is coming from.

"question 5. two hands can control a limb better but its really meant to assault certain nerve points on the limb. Kind of double wammy. 2 better than 1"

I take my hat off. This takes a remarkable level of skill to pull off in a fight. (seriously) But if you've got someone alread under control and you feel a little sadistic (just kidding) you can work your way to a pressure point.

"question 7. Yep alot of forms were added to the EC system. I can't say that they all came from the Chin Woo association. Sifu Shum only kept a couple of these hand forms: Tan Tui, Gung Lek, Jeet Kuen, YeeLong Kuen, Saa Lok Kuen, Toa Kuen and some weapons. Presently he only requires Gung Lek and Jeet kuen for beginners as they give a good foundation."

Ok I recognise one - Tan Tui which is a good foundation for other northen styles.

One question though, do you emphasise the rest of the arm such as fore arm sholder to control the opponenet or is the style focused on the hands (claws)?

Many thanks for the detailed feed back!

Maximus Materialize!

[honorisc]

The e-zine of the first page of kungfuonline.com had an article about Eagle Claw from the daughter and Eightth generation GrandMaster Shum's daughter(?) Lily Lau. I thought that you might be interested.

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Know-No

Thaks agian for the feedback and i apologies for not replying to your post sooner. Here it is and I hope you find it intereting!

"Practitioners train for speed and strength, I presume~The fingerstrength that you say has not anything to do with your question would be useful. If they can consistantly catch falling cement tiles,bricks, blocks, then perhaps they can catch a wrist of a punch."

Yes, that would train for strength and speed but there are a couple of things that are different compared to catching the wrist.

Falling brick - you're catching from the top (as it falls) that is in the same direction of the accleration due to gravity. Accordingly, if you acclerate the claw (down towards the brick) faster then gravity and along the same path as the brock you'll catch it.

However, against a punch - if you were to catch the wrist, your claw would be working perpendicular to the line of force of the punch coming at you. If you reach for the wrist, but the wrist is not in the same plane as the punch, you'll miss it.

So, it is not a matter of speed and strength, but a matter of perception. Punches need not be straight, cuerved, upper cuts etc... comes in all varieties. it is very hard to detect the planes from which they are coming from.

Personally, I have found that if you "stick" with your forearm etc... (eg. techniques from tai chi and other northern styles) you'll be in a much better position to detect the direction of the punches - and you can much more easily work towards a claw.

Simply clawing the wrist as the ounch comes at you ( may work in some instances) but is rather ambitious to expect a high success rate. Even the Karate style blocking of a punch is not very good against a jab - let alone clawing.

"The photographs are not See how good... They are See how to...The ideal is practiced, so that the a
'semblance of the ideal can be applied. Knowing all of the techniques perhaps over laps Need. If a claw is all you get before completion of the intended technique they perhaps start another technique which is used to deal with that kind of attack until they subdued their opponent."

Agreed, it is very difficult to communicate kung fu through photos. They show the end results not the path taken to achieve those results which is the most important.

"There is no place for stunning when your technique is superior to your opponent's and you can subdue them quickly nomatter what melee attack they use."

Your technique has to be VASTLY superior to subdue all forms of attacks. If someone is intent on hurting you, your best bet is to have a seek & destroy attitude. If during that confrontation you find that they were alot weaker than you had expected, you reserve the option to use less destructive techniques. But at the onset (fog of war) when you don't know your enemy's strenghts - holding back your technique puts you in a disadvantage.

"I No_Know, however it seems that the closer the sooner. So minimalizing the "distance away from" that you think might should be, would allow quicker dealing with the opponent."

I was refering to getting further away from the opponnent's fee arm, ie getting to the persons unprotected areas where you can cause the most damage at the lowest possible risk to yourself

"As was indicated, the purpose of this System is non lethal; intent to control and or or subdue. While on hand can inhibit or imobilize, perhaps two are used for a take-down or to merely subdue, or to throw."

Yes, but it sould be non-lethal to the extent that it would not increase your exposure to danger if you were to use lethal techniques. Better to go into battle full force and have the option to show mercy if they surrender rather than to assume that your enemy is going to surrender.

Someone can quite easily get away if you were to grab hold of their wrist. No matter the strength of your forearm muscles, it is no match for someone's body weight. They might even hit you in the process.

"The wrist is theoretically so controlled that it locks-out the elbow and the shoulder because of their hand wrist strength and use of their body to imobilize the whole arm from the wrist"

Yes, that is true but only in very specific angles . Best bet to control the elbow otherwise your face could quite easily be taken out at close range. Elbows are very dangerous - see Thai boxing. Best to remove them from your opponent's aresenal rather then hoping that you got enough control from the wrist - risk is too great.

"If the Eagle Claw practitioner lokcks and keeps locked the arm at the wrist, then there is no need to cover the elbow. "

See above.

"Lily Lau and her successor, 9th generation head of the Eagle Claw System might could say. perhaps some-such Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not. "

Vey interested to hear Lily Lau's views on this subject!

All the best.

Maximus Materialize!

[honorisc]

"Yes, that would train for strength and speed but there are a couple of things that are different compared to catching the wrist."

Strength and Speed are general thingies, not specific applications

"Falling brick - you're catching from the top (as it falls) that is in the same direction of the accleration due to gravity. Accordingly, if you acclerate the claw (down towards the brick) faster then gravity and along the same path as the brock you'll catch it."

By the time that you are faster than the falling heavy thing, the speed, though practiced downwrds is actually extension. Redirect the New speed of extension and one increrases one's ability to catch the wrist...To stop a heavy thing fdrom hitting the ground when the ground is where it was heading, makes for a stronger grip than one might have if one had not gone through the training. Also, this is not merely staic grip. This is grabbing something in motion. Such a skill seems relevant to catching a wrist of a trying to hit you punch...

However, against a punch - if you were to catch the wrist, your claw would be working perpendicular to the line of force of the punch coming at you. If you reach for the wrist, but the wrist is not in the same plane as the punch, you'll miss it.

Again, it is practice. Which means that you vary it accordingly in application. The perception required to catch the brick~ lends itself to the perception required to catch whatever (the pebble flying from my hand which you tried to snatch:-))

"So, it is not a matter of speed and strength, but a matter of perception. Punches need not be straight, cuerved, upper cuts etc... comes in all varieties. it is very hard to detect the planes from which they are coming from."

Theoretically, the Eagle Claw stylistdrills so much, that those variatiooons to a punch at least could be compensated for~.

"Personally, I have found that if you "stick" with your forearm etc... (eg. techniques from tai chi and other northern styles) you'll be in a much better position to detect the direction of the punches - and you can much more easily work towards a claw".

Yet, a claw from no contact as an eagle snatching it's prey has a greater damaging potential plus a surprise factor which could side benefit distract the opponent (tsk, tsk).

"Simply clawing the wrist as the ounch comes at you ( may work in some instances) but is rather ambitious to expect a high success rate. Even the Karate style blocking of a punch is not very good against a jab - let alone clawing."

A fly in a small room has more precision than a 747 in that same room. Jabs are virtually nonexistant...with a shift of the body they are you holding your hand out~. They are messedup feints that accidentally make contact. If enough pebbles hit me from close up I could get seriously hurt. But, if you want to jab while I lock your throat...O.K.:-)


My library time on the computer is up. Your comments were nice. And I meant what I said in the E-Mail.

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[diego]

in my system what i was told is like pakua use the forearm or blade of the hand to stop the strike then claw to tear or sieze..........how does the eagle work do you striaght up grab or jam first


ego no trolling,why couldnt you talk like this in my post

peace all.......

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"Strength and Speed are general thingies, not specific applications"

Very true. They are the axioms from which techniques are built.

"By the time that you are faster than the falling heavy thing, the speed, though practiced downwrds is actually extension. Redirect the New speed of extension and one increrases one's ability to catch the wrist...To stop a heavy thing fdrom hitting the ground when the ground is where it was heading, makes for a stronger grip than one might have if one had not gone through the training. "

Good point. Personally, I haven't trained that way. maybe it works well. From what you describe it sounds very reasonable.

"Also, this is not merely staic grip. This is grabbing something in motion. Such a skill seems relevant to catching a wrist of a trying to hit you punch Again, it is practice. Which means that you vary it accordingly in application."

Agreed. can't rely on static grips in combat.

"The perception required to catch the brick~ lends itself to the perception required to catch whatever (the pebble flying from my hand which you tried to snatch:-))"

Possible but difficult. Especially when you'
re destracted with other things when you're trying to catch that pebble.

"Theoretically, the Eagle Claw stylistdrills so much, that those variatiooons to a punch at least could be compensated for~."

Tai chi - which is a newer style than eagle relies alot more on stickiness as a lead-in to a possible grab. i wonder if it is because people later found out this this is more effective (for the same amount of training time) than just grabbing at something "cold"?

"Yet, a claw from no contact as an eagle snatching it's prey has a greater damaging potential plus a
surprise factor which could side benefit distract the opponent (tsk, tsk)."

Actually, when an eagle hunts, it slams it claws into the prey (basically killing it or stunning it on impact) The claw is to carry it away. if we apply that theory, hit the opponenet hard and claw when they try to retreat.

"A fly in a small room has more precision than a 747 in that same room. Jabs are virtually nonexistant...with a shift of the body they are you holding your hand out~. They are messedup feints that accidentally make contact."

Precisely, that what your opponent wants you to do, move in a certain direction as it would fall into their strategy. eg. get you to protect high while hitting you in the mid section.

"If enough pebbles hit me from close up I could get seriously hurt."

I'm not assuming a point scoring boxing match. Jags are basically for a lead in to somthing extremely devastating. (ie. break the shell and crack the nut inside)

"But, if you want to jab while I lock your throat...O.K.:-)"

You'll win. and you deserve to because to do so, your skill would be vastly superior than your opponent. If evenly matched, it would be very difficult to grab someone's throat. But if you can claw the throat, wy not deliver a heavy punch to the face and claw the throat as your opponenet falls away. What I was saying (earlier) is that clawing cold might be abit ambitious.

"My library time on the computer is up. Your comments were nice. And I meant what I said in the E-Mail."

Likewise thanks again for a healthy discussion! What styles do you train in? (no need to mention sifus and schools if you don't want to - I respect yopur privacy)

Maximus Materialize!