Stance Question

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hey all,

I am curious as to how the stances vary between lineages.

1. Weight distribution 50/50, 30/70 or ___?

2. Feet in "one track" or "two tracks?"

[AdrianK]

Stance is a concept and ultimately weight distribution is an extremely volatile variable.

Traditional Wing Chun strives for even weight distribution, on two tracks if I am understanding your meaning of that phrase.

Most wing chun out there promotes more weight on the back leg. 60/40 or 70/30, it doesn't really matter because those representations aren't accurate anyway.

All of that doesn't matter though. A static idea of stance in such terms of forcing someone into a specific weight distribution for all/most situations is ridiculous. You feel out whats best for your body, based on your experiences in fighting/sparring.

The rest is just ideas and templates to help you get there.

[RGVWingChun]

That I know of Grandmaster Ip Ching teaches that one hundred percent of your balance should be over your rear leg in stances like Chum Kiu mah or other turned stances...so how this plays out with WEIGHT I don't know, everybody is different how their weight is distributed...balance is the main issue I think.

IMO,

Moses

[Phil Redmond]

. . . Traditional Wing Chun strives for even weight distribution, on two tracks if I am understanding your meaning of that phrase. . . .
Exactly. :D

[grasshopper 2.0]

WT advocates all weight on the back leg. This is a training tool more than anything and will eventually just be a stance that can be 100/0 all the way to 0/100 depending on the situation.

When I first learned, all those years I thought it was supposed to be 100/0 and as I progressed, I realized this was more to train structure rather than be applied as is. May seem odd, but I feel that training 100/0 makes ur stance better when applied at 50/50 for example.

[t_niehoff]

Hey all,

I am curious as to how the stances vary between lineages.

1. Weight distribution 50/50, 30/70 or ___?

2. Feet in "one track" or "two tracks?"

Just for clarification, these things pertain to the various curriculum of WCK (how the art is taught), NOT how it is applied (how you use it in fighting).

[Lee Chiang Po]

Since fighting is about avoiding being hit as well as hitting someone, you need to be able to move forward and backwards equally well. This requires you distribute your weight evenly between both feet. It will shift from one foot to the other back and forth as you move in and out. If I understand the track thing right, it will also change depending on the angle you are defending. As in more than one assailant. I usually try to maintain the pigeon toed foot position.
I say all this in the past tense as it has been a few years since I have had to fight or even really train.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Just for clarification, these things pertain to the various curriculum of WCK (how the art is taught), NOT how it is applied (how you use it in fighting).

That's probably correct. Irrespective of what a school espouses to I am sure that if a student sticks around for a while and has sense enough to functionalize his stuff, he will shift his weight and stance situationally. I guess what is taught is what is favored. I teach all of it and give the student some guidance as to what situations call for. I teach 50/50, two-track first because it seems to be the quickest road to defending one's self in a street fight.

[t_niehoff]

That's probably correct. Irrespective of what a school espouses to I am sure that if a student sticks around for a while and has sense enough to functionalize his stuff, he will shift his weight and stance situationally.


Yes.



I guess what is taught is what is favored.


This is true when people make themistake of thinking the curriculum is the application.



I teach all of it and give the student some guidance as to what situations call for. I teach 50/50, two-track first because it seems to be the quickest road to defending one's self in a street fight.

Everyone in WCK has 50/50 -- the YJKYM. When the focus is function/application, these things sort themselves out. They only become theoretical questions when you are not doing (fighting with) it.

[k gledhill]

slt basic drill stance equal weight for starting equally from facing drills involving entry and counter entry drills...

in chi-sao we start with an equal stance for random entry from either side from each partner..this instills an instinctive ability to move to a given stimulus with less thought and correction during the fight :D we develop angling and facing striking actions ...movements that create a fighter who 'sticks' like a shadow, not sticks like a wrestling match ;)

we adopt a side stance , like holding a rifle at a target, the target will move so we change sides to point , while keeping a 'we are a target too' idea..so we can shift feint movement , draw actions etc..with stance work...by using the 'cutting' low arm positions we can engage flanks and allow the arms to do the thinking by , intersecting along the flank entry points..
these points arent wide like the knife positions.
The distances are guided by the strikes ability to make contact and have a working elbow point ...[chi-sao]

when we fight we dont have 2 extended arms like chi-sao ...man + vu = attacking hands

chum kil fighting stances and drills involve movement for connecting the stance ...hips elbows...teaching to face the line of attack...this line is guided from knife fighting ideas...

the dummy teaches a cycle of actions with facing and alignment along parallel directions 'shadowing' entry from angles that adopt a lead leg once the flank is isolated...

the pole stance teaches endurance :D

the knives teach mobility and distance for facing a spear or knives , its dated but still offers the over all tactical direction for a vt fighter...water fighting, stay dry.

they involve large steps and wider flanking blindside actions to minimize counters with sharp wildly thrown actions of a dying man...we attack the arms with the knives so a
lot of actions are to adopt a side of the opponent...

we dont use the X the centerline with wrists idea of SLT in the knives ...

[t_niehoff]

slt basic drill stance equal weight for starting equally from facing drills involving entry and counter entry drills...

in chi-sao we start with an equal stance for random entry from either side from each partner..this instills an instinctive ability to move to a given stimulus with less thought and correction during the fight :D we develop angling and facing striking actions ...movements that create a fighter who 'sticks' like a shadow, not sticks like a wrestling match ;)


chum kil fighting stances and drills involve movement for connecting the stance ...hips elbows...teaching to face the line of attack...this line is guided from knife fighting ideas...

the dummy teaches a cycle of actions with facing and alignment along parallel directions 'shadowing' entry from angles that adopt a lead leg once the flank is isolated...

the pole stance teaches endurance :D

the knives teach mobility and distance for facing a spear or knives , its dated but still offers the over all tactical direction for a vt fighter...water fighting, stay dry.

they involve large steps and wider flanking blindside actions to minimize counters with sharp wildly thrown actions of a dying man...we attack the arms with the knives so a
lot of actions are to adopt a side of the opponent...

we dont use the X the centerline with wrists idea of SLT in the knives ...

No, no, no, no on so many levels I don't know where to start.

[k gledhill]

Hey all,

I am curious as to how the stances vary between lineages.

1. Weight distribution 50/50, 30/70 or ___?



2. Feet in "one track" or "two tracks?"

#1 ....all ..100% when kicking etc.. the key is balanced movement from all to the next

? no lead leg until you can attack a turned opponents stance and enter , we adopt side stances to move and turn on our axis line quickly to engage the movements presented by the reality of what is before us...not planned move a for action x..

many try a lead leg entry from the front , from to far away, easily countered.

We try to mirror and shadow using the techniques...

tactics rather than a plan, guidelines rather than fixed rules, concepts with techniques to allow the delivery...

[k gledhill]

No, no, no, no on so many levels I don't know where to start.

because you dont know....how else would the great Terence be stifled ;)

A lawyer has to understand the oppositions case fully to argue his own competently ..?

you dont know what Im talking about but you feel compelled to open your mouth like you know ...

like I tell you the world is round but you just seen the edge ...step over son, walk on.

[t_niehoff]

because you dont know....how else would the great Terence be stifled ;)

WCK's method of fighting is to control the opponent while striking him -- it's an attached fighting method (meaning we are close and in sustained contact). Once you appreciate that, then you will begin to see how all the horses (not stances but horses) pertain to body leverage and taking advantage of an opponent's momentum to control them. The forms, dummy, weapons all relate to this very basic, fundamental approach.

[Knifefighter]

because you dont know....how else would the great Terence be stifled ;)
No, because your posts clearly demonstrate that you are a purely theoretical, non-fighter.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yes.



This is true when people make themistake of thinking the curriculum is the application.

If your curriculum isn't geared towards application, or straight forward teaching, I recommend that you change it.




Everyone in WCK has 50/50 -- the YJKYM. When the focus is function/application, these things sort themselves out. They only become theoretical questions when you are not doing (fighting with) it.

Who was asking a theoretical question? Man you must be a horrible teacher. I feel sorry for your students. Sounds to me like you have them come in and drill chain punches and forms all night and let them fend for themselves on matters of fighting strategy and application. LOL.

To be honest, I was just looking to find an explanation for all the sloppy Wing Chun that I see. Your post gave me the insight that I was looking for.

[Knifefighter]

Stance is a concept and ultimately weight distribution is an extremely volatile variable.
Of course it is, considering the fact that to move requires a weight transfer from 100% to 0% every single time you move.

[k gledhill]

WCK's method of fighting is to control the opponent while striking him -- it's an attached fighting method (meaning we are close and in sustained contact). Once you appreciate that, then you will begin to see how all the horses (not stances but horses) pertain to body leverage and taking advantage of an opponent's momentum to control them. The forms, dummy, weapons all relate to this very basic, fundamental approach.

right, Terence has spoken so it has to be true ;)

your brainwashed dude.

[k gledhill]

No, because your posts clearly demonstrate that you are a purely theoretical, non-fighter.


This is from WSL way of fighting....I am simply the messenger ;)

the method of training Im writing about many have not even heard of... if it sounds alien to you and "not like the fighting I've done" it doesnt make it any less effective in the hands of someone who can make it work..WSL made it work..not by controlling sticking crap T mentions..Ive met and done that type of chi-sao with guys who do that method ; ) ..I did the same thinking too for a while, from a direct student of YM himself ..its cr&p...all moves and stance work with turning and doing a tan da etc...BS

[Yoshiyahu]

This is from WSL way of fighting....I am simply the messenger ;)

the method of training Im writing about many have not even heard of... if it sounds alien to you and "not like the fighting I've done" it doesnt make it any less effective in the hands of someone who can make it work..WSL made it work..not by controlling sticking crap T mentions..Ive met and done that type of chi-sao with guys who do that method ; ) ..I did the same thinking too for a while, from a direct student of YM himself ..its cr&p...all moves and stance work with turning and doing a tan da etc...BS

I agree and disagree...You should practice both...Practice both sticking and controlling. All controlling is, is trapping flanking your opponent by pulling him to side. Grabbing his arm an pulling him while you front kick. jerking his arm while you punch his nose. Grabbing the back of his head and hitting him with an elbow. These are elements of trapping and controlling techniques. Endless pull your opponent off balance to disrupt his timing and attacks so you can flow in your attacks. Push him to disrupt or gain entry. Slap his guards or body to punish and wear down.

Also you have endless flowing techniques were you constantly move and feel for openings and sense his attacks to turn off his force and redirect his offensive line. This doesn't always require constant sticking and controlling but can be done in the clinch or close fighting.

There is also elements of mid range and long range fighting you should practice. Get use to defending and attacking an outside fighter. Learn how to gain entry so you can control and attack him...

But the key is to take your chi sau to actual fighting...Chi sau is a tool. Just like throwing punches in the air or kicks in air is a tool. In a fight you do not punch and kick so structured. You must be able to continously attack and defend. Sometimes your kick or punch will be intercepted. So now you have a bridge. Use the bridge to walk across, go under, or destroy it and it. You leak through the bridge or slid across it like its smooth as glass. But chi sau is not fighting. Its training. You have to fight with Tan Da and Pak Da to see how it works. Chi Sau develops your sensitivity, sticking, controlling, trapping, defend and attack, feeling openings. When your actually fighting those skills learn and attained occur once your in chi sau range. Instantly you should feel for hits and redirect force and create openings. You should seek to be an advantgeous posistion to where you can hit comfortably with out your opponent ability to strike back. Or strike a valid target. This is the key. Actual fighting. You do endless stactice drills, chi sau and forms and other things but fighting is what will actually help you understand how the drills, forms, chi sau, stance, steps, punches, kicks, deflections, energies, structure, power, speed and agility can be utlize in real time. When you can redirect the force of an opponent who is really trying hit you and not doing a drill then you know what your doing. But remember you won't be able to beat everyone. An just because one technique doesn't work or you miss a hit the fight doesn't stop. A fight keeps going so your sparring should too. Endless sparring will increase your fighting skills. Endless drills will increase your motor skils and timing and accuracy, Endless forms will increase your muscle memory and development of proper structure and Chi, Endless punches and kicks will increase your stamina, power and chi, endless stance work and steps will increase you Chi, Movements, stability, power generation and structure. But to use these in fighting you must also fight.

Of I may have forgotten endless chi sau increases your knowledge of inside fighting, chi, ability to stick, sensitivity, trapping, redirecting force and application of forms and drills.

But endless sparring is utilizing your skills obtain from everything else in real time.


This is an open invitation to anyone below....Not directed toward kdell
Think of it this way. Go to a karate guy an try to do chi sau with him. Slap really hard in the face. When he gets mad an attacks you for real. Tell me how you chi sau should have change or has to change.....