The Top WC Guys out there

[AdrianK]

So out of everywhere in the world, who do you feel are the top WC instructors/schools? I've always kept a list of teachers of various styles I've heard good things about, for when I travel I can go meet them or check them out, so post who you feel are quality teachers or practitioners in your area.

Here's a few great teachers from my list of Southern California, for Wing Chun

Robert Chu
Hawkins Cheung
Gary Lam
Thomas Wong (haven't had a chance to meet him yet, but I've heard good things)

[HumbleWCGuy]

I like Master Wong out of the UK. Some people dislike him because they say he isn't a true WC man but to me that is B.S.

[goju]

william cheung
gary lam
michael wong
and this one master i forget his name he was one the human weapon episode on kung fu demoing wing chun on the great wall

[-木叶-]

(Not in any order)

Ip Chun
Tsui Shong Tin
Lo Man Kam
Gary Lam
Wan Kam Leung
Wang Zhi Peng

Grand Master Wang Zhi Peng is the one in Human weapon demo-ing on the great wall.

Grand Master Gary Lam is the Sifu of the Year in 2006 and received an award for the World Ving Tsun Athletic Association Hall of Fame for his contributions to Ving Tsun, and also undefeated champion of HK Full contact competition in 78-79

Grand Master Wan Kam Leung is the man they call the "real bruce lee", fought a group of gangsters with parangs and defeated them. Instructor of the G4 Summit Law Enforcers in HK.

Grand Master Lo Man Kam is the nephew of Ip Man, and instructed Taiwan Police and Eastern European Special Forces.

Grand Master Tsui Shong Tin, also known as the King of Siu Nim Tao.

Last but not least, Grand Master Ip Chun is the son of Yip Man Si Jo, his forms and preservation of the Wing Chun and Chinese cultural heritage is impeccable.

Of course there are many others who are amazing people doing Wing Chun whom i also greatly respect and admire.

[grasshopper 2.0]

WITHOUT INTENTION OF MAKING THIS A THREAD OF WHO CAN FIGHT OR NOT...

What are we using to define as "top wc guys"?

Unless the definition includes fighting capabilities...

[Wayfaring]

WITHOUT INTENTION OF MAKING THIS A THREAD OF WHO CAN FIGHT OR NOT...

What are we using to define as "top wc guys"?

Unless the definition includes fighting capabilities...

Well, I suppose we could make up different categories to judge this. Let me see, besides fighting, what is there?

1) Best Stories
2) Brews Best Tea
3) Prettiest Forms
4) Largest Organization
5) Coolest Butterfly Knives
6) Best Accent

Scale of 1 to 10?

[Vajramusti]

Larry, Curly and Mo
and some trolls in this forum.

[Phrost]

WITHOUT INTENTION OF MAKING THIS A THREAD OF WHO CAN FIGHT OR NOT...

What are we using to define as "top wc guys"?

Unless the definition includes fighting capabilities...

Hah, I saw the thread and came to post this.

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

[AdrianK]

WITHOUT INTENTION OF MAKING THIS A THREAD OF WHO CAN FIGHT OR NOT...

What are we using to define as "top wc guys"?

Unless the definition includes fighting capabilities...

Mainly teaching ability. Fighting ability is great too, but many of the best teachers are long past their prime. I'm mainly looking for people who have schools or are active teachers.

[Phrost]

Mainly teaching ability. Fighting ability is nice, but many of the best teachers are long past their prime. I'm mainly looking for people who have schools or are active teachers.

So then their teaching ability would be judged by how well their students can fight.

[goju]

as far as whod kick in arse in a real fight id still pick the guys i did they are both frighteningly skilled

[Phrost]

as far as whod kick in arse in a real fight id still pick the guys i did they are both frighteningly skilled

Sweet, what fights have they been in? Any caught on video?

[goju]

Sweet, what fights have they been in? Any caught on video?
william cheung along with gary lam were noroious streetfighters as were most of yip mans students theres vids of them fighting when they were young
as far as the the others go i have no clue know nest to nothing about peng or wong

[Phrost]

william cheung along with gary lam were noroious streetfighters as were most of yip mans students theres vids of them fighting when they were young
as far as the the others go i have no clue know nest to nothing about peng or wong

Well anecdotes are one thing, but if you're going to make an informed ranking on people's fighting ability it helps to have actual evidence to look at.

And the only video I've seen of William Cheung involves him on his back flailing helplessly from Emin Boztepe's schoolyard bully takedown, neither of which involved any actual Wing Chun.

If you can dig those videos up, I'd love to host them for you.

[goju]

Well anecdotes are one thing, but if you're going to make an informed ranking on people's fighting ability it helps to have actual evidence to look at.

And the only video I've seen of William Cheung involves him on his back flailing helplessly from Emin Boztepe's schoolyard bully takedown, neither of which involved any actual Wing Chun.

If you can dig those videos up, I'd love to host them for you.
actually in that video emin didnt take them down and the start you can see william has him in a headlock and then they both slip on their arses of course then to emins favour the tape gets so dark you cant see anything thats goin on until you see him turning to run before the tape ends :)


dont have a flashplayer cant watch the majority of videos on the net :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Without the fighting ability, the teaching ability means nothing. ESPECIALLY IN SUCH A "CONCEPT-ORIENTED" ART. I mean, what a shocker if someone mentioned a wing chun instructor who was teaching him all this "stuff" (forms, chi sao, wooden dummy, drills)...and none of it worked after spending x amount of years in the school and getting into a streetfight, huh?

I mean, like that has never happened, has it? :D

[goju]

And most of the people think that the master is going to do all these fancy moves wheN he fights i remember a interview with some white crane master and he was asked what he would do if some one was going to attack him

and he simply said hed just get up off his chair and slug him in the jaw

[AdrianK]

So then their teaching ability would be judged by how well their students can fight.

Absolutely. I'd love to see some legitimate proof of fighting ability, but I know how rare that is in the WC world... though Alan Orr's folk are looking pretty good.

Interesting to have you here Phrost, I've been going to Bullshido since the days it was known as Mcdojo.com, how long have you been on KFM?

Anyways, Welcome. Its great to have you here.



Without the fighting ability, the teaching ability means nothing. ESPECIALLY IN SUCH A "CONCEPT-ORIENTED" ART. I mean, what a shocker if someone mentioned a wing chun instructor who was teaching him all this "stuff" (forms, chi sao, wooden dummy, drills)...and none of it worked after spending x amoount of years in the school and getting into a streetfight, huh?!

I mean, like that has never happened, has it?!

I don't mean to play down the fighting ability. I don't include it because many of these teachers are pretty old. I could touch hands with someone like Gary Lam or Thomas Wong and feel some skill, but they're so far past their primes that any legitimate proof of their fighting ability is going to be hard to come by. Like Freddie Roach is a great trainer but his fighting abilities are severely degraded from age and health issues.

It'd be great to see videos of them fighting. But its not very common. As Phrost said too, to judge it by their students but I doubt I'll ever find videos of their students fighting.

[RGVWingChun]

Ok, so I'm going to have to go - hands down - Grandmaster Ip Ching, youngest son of Great Grandmaster Ip Man.

From there I'll go with some of his students and grandstudents including Samuel Kwok, Master Edmond Fong Wing Hong, Sifu Matt Johnson (Chicago) , Sifu Chris Damiano (Florida), there are others as well....other peeps that I consider top are Master Paul Smith and Master Billy Davidson (Scotland and UK respectively)...I have listened to David Peterson's stuff and I like his presentation knowledge of Wing Chun from Wong Shong Leung....ummm....Danny Halligan (student of Eric Lee, from Iowa), I'll give my props to Ip Chun but I can't say I prefer his method over his brothers approach.

my personal criteria goes with knowledge of the system as well as fighting capability

Moses

[LSWCTN1]

is this title not too open to personal interpretation?

how about a 'sifu wishlist'?

in no particular order

Barry Lee
Ng Chun Hong
Gary Lam
Kwok Wan Ping
Tom Wong
Andreas Hoffman
Philipp Bayer
Michael Tang
Cheung Wai Poh
Duncan Leung
Allan Lee
Fung Keung
David Peterson - amazing book on WSL

the list could go on for days!

I'm very happy with my instructor, most are on here because they offer a slightly different perspective on the same theme, some just out of interest in their system, but mostly on reputation alone.

there are many less known people that would be interesting too, who I imagine you could learn a lot from

Kev Bell
Kev Gledhill - IMHO the best poster on here. makes things nice & easy!
Joseph Cheng
Hendrik Santo - i think he has some real skill to offer, you have to bear in mind English is not his 1st language
Joseph Lee
Alan Lamb

i would also genuinley like to see what Kenneth Ing of Black Flag had to offer, just out of interest

[Phil Redmond]

Well anecdotes are one thing, but if you're going to make an informed ranking on people's fighting ability it helps to have actual evidence to look at.

And the only video I've seen of William Cheung involves him on his back flailing helplessly from Emin Boztepe's schoolyard bully takedown, neither of which involved any actual Wing Chun.

If you can dig those videos up, I'd love to host them for you.
Well WSL, Duncan Leung, Moy Yat, Victor Kan, Chan Chee Man and many others said the William Cheung was one of the best WC fighters in HK.
http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/wslbl.htm
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_lo01.html
The incident in Germany doesn't prove anything. All fighters have good and bad days, even pros.

[t_niehoff]

Well WSL, Duncan Leung, Moy Yat, Victor Kan, Chan Chee Man and many others said the William Cheung was one of the best WC fighters in HK.
http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/wslbl.htm
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_lo01.html
The incident in Germany doesn't prove anything. All fighters have good and bad days, even pros.

Stories and reputations prove NOTHING.

That's saying he was one of the best among people who couldn't fight very well or didn't fight at all. We've seen the rooftop fights. Crap, right? So what does "being one of the best WC fighters in Hong Kong" mean? Very little. Sort of like being first in the slow progress class. ;)

And, yes Phil, even good fighters have bad days -- but when have we ever seen one of his "good" days to KNOW this was a bad day and not just a typical day? Where is the evidence that he was a "good" fighter (not just better than the rest of the crap)? Did he ever fight any known opponent with any proven degree of fighting skill?

[t_niehoff]

So out of everywhere in the world, who do you feel are the top WC instructors/schools? I've always kept a list of teachers of various styles I've heard good things about, for when I travel I can go meet them or check them out, so post who you feel are quality teachers or practitioners in your area.

Here's a few great teachers from my list of Southern California, for Wing Chun

Robert Chu
Hawkins Cheung
Gary Lam
Thomas Wong (haven't had a chance to meet him yet, but I've heard good things)


In my view, it depends on what you want. WCK, like all TCMA, is divided into curriculum (how the art is taught, which includes forms, drills, kuit, etc.) and using the art (fighting). Most legitimate WCK instructors can teach a person the curriculum of WCK.

If someone wants to learn and develop the ability to USE (fight with) that curriculum, that is something they can't get from any WCK sifu. You learn and develop the ability to USE (fight with) your WCK by fighting -- you don't and can't get it from your sifu. In fact, listening to people who don't and can't fight their WCK tell you how things should be done is like listening to someone who doesn't surf tell you how you should be doing things when you hit the waves -- not only a waste of time but most likely actually counter-productive. The blind leading the blind.

Hawkins Cheung learned WCK from Yip Man. But he joined a goju karate school that sparred (since he didn't want to unlawfully fight on the streets) to learn how to use his WCK. One of his most profound remarks IMO was "Yip Man didn't teach me the footwork, my opponents did." Precisely, you learn to fight, to use your WCK, by fighting -- it is your opponent who teach you. You let application (fighitng) be your sifu. FWIW, Robert (on your list) told me, and I know he told Alan and Dave and the rest of his guys the same thing: go out and train/spar with proven, competent fighters to develop your fighting (application) skill.

The best a WCK sifu/coach can do is provide hints, suggestions, point out problems you are having, etc. assuming that he has done THE WORK (or putting in loads of sparring time with quality opponents) himself. If he hasn't done that and if he won't demonstrate that ability, then you should take what he tells you about application with a huge grain of salt. Either way, the trainee still has to do THE WORK himself.

[LSWCTN1]

In my view, it depends on what you want. WCK, like all TCMA, is divided into curriculum (how the art is taught, which includes forms, drills, kuit, etc.) and using the art (fighting). Most legitimate WCK instructors can teach a person the curriculum of WCK.

If someone wants to learn and develop the ability to USE (fight with) that curriculum, that is something they can't get from any WCK sifu. You learn and develop the ability to USE (fight with) your WCK by fighting -- you don't and can't get it from your sifu. In fact, listening to people who don't and can't fight their WCK tell you how things should be done is like listening to someone who doesn't surf tell you how you should be doing things when you hit the waves -- not only a waste of time but most likely actually counter-productive.

Hawkins Cheung learned WCK from Yip Man. But he joined a goju karate school that sparred (since he didn't want to unlawfully fight on the streets) to learn how to use his WCK. One of his most profound remarks IMO was "Yip Man didn't teach me the footwork, my opponents did." Precisely, you learn to fight, to use your WCK, by fighting -- it is your opponent who teach you. You let application (fighitng) be your sifu. FWIW, Robert (on your list) told me, and I know he told Alan and Dave and the rest of his guys the same thing: go out and train/spar with proven, competent fighters to develop your fighting (application) skill.

The best a WCK sifu/coach can do is provide hints, suggestions, point out problems you are having, etc. assuming that he has done THE WORK (or putting in loads of sparring time with quality opponents) himself. If he hasn't done that and if he won't demonstrate that ability, then you should take what he tells you about application with a huge grain of salt. Either way, the trainee still has to do THE WORK himself.

look, whilst i agree with some of your points some of the time...

can you please just respond to the thread for once, or not at all?

i dont know why you tell everyone to train with competant fighters anyway, you dont :confused:

if you did you would be able to provide some evidence that you do ;)

even if you did provide a video, whats to say that you are with competant fighters?!?!

[Knifefighter]

actually in that video emin didnt take them down and the start you can see william has him in a headlock and then they both slip on their arses of course then to emins favour the tape gets so dark you cant see anything thats goin on until you see him turning to run before the tape ends :)

I don't know if a headlock was applied or not, but putting someone in a headlock is proof of low-level hands-on fighting ability. It's about the equivalent of trying to hit someone by leading with your face first... all it does is give your opponent a huge advantage.

[t_niehoff]

look, whilst i agree with some of your points some of the time...

can you please just respond to the thread for once, or not at all?

i dont know why you tell everyone to train with competant fighters anyway, you dont :confused:

if you did you would be able to provide some evidence that you do ;)

even if you did provide a video, whats to say that you are with competant fighters?!?!

When have I personally become the stadard of proof for how fighters should train? I'm not. I don't claim to be. Nor do I want to be. The standard of proof is to look at what really good, proven fighters DO, at how THEY train and apply those lessons to WCK. Or, do you want to look at what proven nonfighters (WCK masters and grandmasters) do?

Let's say I put up videos of me getting my ass-kicked at the BJJ/MMA school I train at. What would that prove? Nothing. Would you suddenly change all your opinions because I posted a video of myself sparring? Of course not. Do you want to see the photos of my sprained and fractured ankle I'm nursing right now that I got from sparring with a competent fighter? What would that prove?

If videos will change your mind, then spend some time looking on youtube at some real fights and watching how real fighters train. That's out there already but it certainly doesn't seem to have sunk into many of the thick skulls around here.

Individual cases btw never prove anything. You need to look across populations, across large numbers, to see whether something produces results or not. Look at all good, PROVEN fighters, see what they are doing, how they are training, their results and apply that KNOWLEDGE to your practice.

[k gledhill]

Philipp Bayer ;)

[Lindley]

Grandmaster Pete Pajil

[goju]

Stories and reputations prove NOTHING.

That's saying he was one of the best among people who couldn't fight very well or didn't fight at all. We've seen the rooftop fights. Crap, right? So what does "being one of the best WC fighters in Hong Kong" mean? Very little. Sort of like being first in the slow progress class. ;)

And, yes Phil, even good fighters have bad days -- but when have we ever seen one of his "good" days to KNOW this was a bad day and not just a typical day? Where is the evidence that he was a "good" fighter (not just better than the rest of the crap)? Did he ever fight any known opponent with any proven degree of fighting skill?
this is rediculous who according to you would be a opponent with skill?this would just tunr inot a roundabout argument that ufc nerds about which fighter would kick the other fighters arse because one fighters has ony competing against tomato cans his whole career

w;;iams cheungs gary lam and mongs and pengs skill spaks for itself

[goju]

When have I personally become the stadard of proof for how fighters should train? I'm not. I don't claim to be. Nor do I want to be. The standard of proof is to look at what really good, proven fighters DO, at how THEY train and apply those lessons to WCK. Or, do you want to look at what proven nonfighters (WCK masters and grandmasters) do?

Let's say I put up videos of me getting my ass-kicked at the BJJ/MMA school I train at. What would that prove? Nothing. Would you suddenly change all your opinions because I posted a video of myself sparring? Of course not. Do you want to see the photos of my sprained and fractured ankle I'm nursing right now that I got from sparring with a competent fighter? What would that prove?

If videos will change your mind, then spend some time looking on youtube at some real fights and watching how real fighters train. That's out there already but it certainly doesn't seem to have sunk into many of the thick skulls around here.

Individual cases btw never prove anything. You need to look across populations, across large numbers, to see whether something produces results or not. Look at all good, PROVEN fighters, see what they are doing, how they are training, their results and apply that KNOWLEDGE to your practice.
what proven fighters are you reffering to martila athletes like cage fighters?
you can hardly claim fighting ina cage with rules and cloves and moves being forbidden a true test of fighting power

[Knifefighter]

what proven fighters are you reffering to martila athletes like cage fighters?
you can hardly claim fighting ina cage with rules and cloves and moves being forbidden a true test of fighting power

It is a 1000% better test of fighting power than is slapping a wooden dummy, doing the pigeon-toe dance, and playing the rolling steering wheel game and slapping each other in the chest.

[goju]

I don't know if a headlock was applied or not, but putting someone in a headlock is proof of low-level hands-on fighting ability. It's about the equivalent of trying to hit someone by leading with your face first... all it does is give your opponent a huge advantage.
no its not you can choke some one out from there as carlos newton did to pat miletich you can use a throwing technique from it a neck crank or you can attack the top of their skull or eyes

[Knifefighter]

no its not you can choke some one out from there as carlos newton did to pat miletich you can use a throwing technique from it a neck crank or you can attack the top of their skull or eyes

LOL... how would you know? You don't even know the difference between a headlock and a choke.

As far as the headlock, I just watched the video. It wasn't really a headlock. I don't know what, exactly, that was (must have been some secret WC choking technique), but it sure did set him up to get thrown to the ground. It definitely wasn't a slip (if anything, Emin may have used a foot sweep to move things along).

It was, however, a good lesson on what not to do when someone gets in your face.

[goju]

It is a 1000% better test of fighting power than is slapping a wooden dummy, doing the pigeon-toe dance, and playing the rolling steering wheel game and slapping each other in the chest.
yes thats all the wing chun guys did right how many masters talk about it beingc ommon for the youth in china to engage in street fights. i guess they were all lying though huh? lol

[goju]

LOL... how would you know? You don't even know the difference between a headlock and a choke.

As far as the headlock, I just watched the video. It wasn't really a headlock. I don't know what, exactly, that was (must have been some secret WC choking technique), but it sure did set him up to get thrown to the ground. It definitely wasn't a slip (if anything, Emin may have used a foot sweep to move things along).

It was, however, a good lesson on what not to do when someone gets in your face.
um yes i dofrom the head lock you can turn it inot a choke easily just because you use knife fighter as your handle dosnt mean anything mate :)if we want to get inot who knows what i coul just aas easily quesyion who the hell you are, remember that :)

no im sorry but when you take some one down wether its a foot sweep or what ever your legs dont go flying out from under you too they both slipped

[t_niehoff]

this is rediculous who according to you would be a opponent with skill?this would just tunr inot a roundabout argument that ufc nerds about which fighter would kick the other fighters arse because one fighters has ony competing against tomato cans his whole career

w;;iams cheungs gary lam and mongs and pengs skill spaks for itself

Let me ask you a question: how can you tell what anyone's fighting skill level is with out actually seeing them fight? Can you tell how good a boxer or a wrestler is, for instance, without seeing him actually box or wrestle? Or, do you just believe that you can INFER fighting skill by seeing them not fight?

And if you do see them fight, how can you determine their skill level from that? Yes, skilled fighters can (for example a skilled ground guy can look at what someone does on the ground and tell whetehr or not they know what they are doing). And we can tell by seeing the level of opponent they can defeat or hold their own against. Or do you think beating an unskilled scrub can somehow prove you are a world-class level fighter?

I'm not talking about ARGUING over who can beat whom, I'm talking about looking at proven performance in fighting over time. We can look at combative athletes all over the place -- just like in any other type of athletics -- and see consistent performance levels over time. The problem is that in WCK we don't have that, we can't see these guys fight and we can't see the level of the guys they did (if they ever did) fight against.

Finally, once you appreciate that fighting skill is developed by and through fighting, and that you are only as good as your training/sparring partners, then you need to ask yourself -- have these guys done that REQUIRED work to get really good? Have they put in the hundreds and maybe thousands of hours of hard sparring with good, competent people to really develop higher level fighting skill? Or, have they had a "few" streetfights or rooftop challenge fights and used taht to promote themselves?

It's not difficult to find a skilled opponent, or determine their general skill level. Combative sports seems to be able to do that easily.

[Knifefighter]

no im sorry but when you take some one down wether its a foot sweep or what ever your legs dont go flying out from under you too they both slipped

That's exactly what happens with a good foot sweep.

The more you post, the more you demonstrate your ignorance.

[t_niehoff]

um yes i dofrom the head lock you can turn it inot a choke easily just because you use knife fighter as your handle dosnt mean anything mate :)if we want to get inot who knows what i coul just aas easily quesyion who the hell you are, remember that :)

no im sorry but when you take some one down wether its a foot sweep or what ever your legs dont go flying out from under you too they both slipped

Since you want to know who the hell he is, Knifefighter (Dale Franks) is a BJJ black belt who has fought in sub grappling and MMA competitions, and NHB bare-knuckle, not to mention one of the Dog Brothers.

[goju]

Let me ask you a question: how can you tell what anyone's fighting skill level is with out actually seeing them fight? Can you tell how good a boxer or a wrestler is, for instance, without seeing him actually box or wrestle? Or, do you just believe that you can INFER fighting skill by seeing them not fight?

And if you do see them fight, how can you determine their skill level from that? Yes, skilled fighters can (for example a skilled ground guy can look at what someone does on the ground and tell whetehr or not they know what they are doing). And we can tell by seeing the level of opponent they can defeat or hold their own against. Or do you think beating an unskilled scrub can somehow prove you are a world-class level fighter?

I'm not talking about ARGUING over who can beat whom, I'm talking about looking at proven performance in fighting over time. We can look at combative athletes all over the place -- just like in any other type of athletics -- and see consistent performance levels over time. The problem is that in WCK we don't have that, we can't see these guys fight and we can't see the level of the guys they did (if they ever did) fight against.

Finally, once you appreciate that fighting skill is developed by and through fighting, and that you are only as good as your training/sparring partners, then you need to ask yourself -- have these guys done that REQUIRED work to get really good? Have they put in the hundreds and maybe thousands of hours of hard sparring with good, competent people to really develop higher level fighting skill? Or, have they had a "few" streetfights or rooftop challenge fights and used taht to promote themselves?

It's not difficult to find a skilled opponent, or determine their general skill level. Combative sports seems to be able to do that easily.
lol who cares to be honest with you most of these masters that i listed are old men allready i dont think theya re going to be stepping into a competion format anytime soon

like i said this argument just tunrs into who cant beat who or whos fought tomato canslol a scrub to somebody else may be a skilled martial artist in somebody else eyes

[goju]

That's exactly what happens with a good foot sweep.

The more you post, the more you demonstrate your ignorance.
really your ass gos flying on the ground too lol

[goju]

Since you want to know who the hell he is, Knifefighter (Dale Franks) is a BJJ black belt who has fought in sub grappling and MMA competitions, and NHB bare-knuckle, not to mention one of the Dog Brothers.
good for him what does this have to do with wing chun?tell you what next time your in the uk take a trip up to michael wong school and spar with him knife fighter :)

[t_niehoff]

good for him what does this have to do with wing chun?tell you what next time your in the uk take a trip up to michael wong school and spar with him knife fighter :)

Well, he also practices or practiced WCK. In any event, it shows that he knows about fighting, and is experienced and skilled in fighting.

Why make internet challenges (which only morons do) and for other persons! If Wong wants to see what his skill level is, all he needs to do is visit a decent MMA school and have a go.

BTW, is this your champion? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk5f1RxSgbc

ROFLOL!

[goju]

Well, he also practices or practiced WCK. In any event, it shows that he knows about fighting, and is experienced and skilled in fighting.

Why make internet challenges (which only morons do) and for other persons! If Wong wants to see what his skill level is, all he needs to do is visit a decent MMA school and have a go.

BTW, is this your champion? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk5f1RxSgbc

ROFLOL!
whos making an internet challenge?im saying dont talk **** about real fighting challenges when you dont do them youself(im refering to you bubba) banging on about what constitutes a real fighting test of skill is pointless


being that i dont have a flash player on my computer i cant view the video

[t_niehoff]

whos making an internet challenge?im saying dont talk **** about real fighting challenges when you dont do them youself(im refering to you bubba) banging on about what constitutes a real fighting test of skill is pointless


being that i dont have a flash player on my computer i cant view the video

As soon as you hear someone talk about "real fighting" you know they haven't a clue.

[Knifefighter]

really your ass gos flying on the ground too lol

Yep, again, as anyone who is not a theoretical, pretend, non-fighter knows and actually does them against resisting opponents, when you do footsweeps, throws or takedowns, you often go down yourself... which is why it is important to know what to do on the ground if you are including these in your arsenal.

Thinking you are going to do footsweeps and never end up on the ground yourself is definitely one of the signs of a theoretical, pretend, non-fighter.

[goju]

As soon as you hear someone talk about "real fighting" you know they haven't a clue.
indeed because the concept is rediculous
you talk about cage fighting a si noted there are to many rules gloves etc etc


with a street fight more than likely the martial artist will be fighting some one who dosnt even know anything and then of course we get the scrub comment

see what i mean about the argument going into circles?

unless there is an incredible video of anybody here fighting to the death with a highly skilled opponent with no rules then stfu

[goju]

Yep, again, as anyone who is not a theoretical, pretend, non-fighter knows and actually does them against resisting opponents, when you do footsweeps, throws or takedowns, you often go down yourself... which is why it is important to know what to do on the ground if you are including these in your arsenal.
theres no sweep all i see are two men both slipping on their asses from that postion you would be able to see emins legs scooping out cheungs for the sweep and you dont therefore there is no sweep

[Knifefighter]

theres no sweep all i see are two men both slipping on their asses from that postion you would be able to see emins legs scooping out cheungs for the sweep and you dont therefore there is no sweep
Actually, you are probably right. It's looks as though emin used Cheung's precarious "headlock" to rotate him into what was either a conscious takedown or a more accidental fall. Either way, the headlock was what made the takedown (or slip), with Emin landing on top, so easy.

[goju]

Actually, you are probably right. It's looks as though emin used Cheung's precarious "headlock" to rotate him into what was either a conscious takedown or a more accidental fall. Either way, the headlock was what made the takedown (or slip), with Emin landing on top, so easy.
yup and if emin knew anything cheung may have gotten his arse beat but then it all goes dark how fortunate i guess a solar eclipse was happening at that time

[Ultimatewingchun]

"When have I personally become the standard of proof for how fighters should train? I'm not. I don't claim to be. Nor do I want to be." (Terence Niehoff)
.................................................. ....

***WHEN you decided to bombard each-and-every thread you post on with little more than a "these-are-the-standards-you-must-meet" attitude - and then try to hold each-and-every person who disputes your arguments to those standards - THEREBY MAKING YOURSELF THE STANDARD POLICEMAN FOR THE WING CHUN FORUM....

it was that very day that you personally became the standard; probably, if I'd have to guess, about 4-5 years ago.

And of course it's understandable, given your actual posted vid/show up for a gathering record, that you "don't want to be" (the standard).

BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

You made your bed - and now you have to sleep in it.

WHERE ARE YOUR VIDS, TERENCE???

[Knifefighter]

yup and if emin knew anything cheung may have gotten his arse beat but then it all goes dark how fortunate i guess a solar eclipse was happening at that time

A couple of instructive things about that encounter.

1- These were two of the most highly skilled WC practioners on the planet at the time, yet that was the result of a real-time encounter.

2- It was obvious neither had much of a clue about what to do on the ground, yet emin was supposedly challenging the gracies to an nhb match.

3- It is understandable that both were pretty clueless on the ground, but there also seemed to be no WC skill displayed by either in the standing encounter also.

[grasshopper 2.0]

Way to make this another "wc" thread..void of the actual topic at hand.

I think that its possible to learn something from those that may not be fighters but are good teachers. Mathematicians, physicists, economists - they can provide deeper insight beyond "how to sell" in order to drive the economy, build a bridge, etc. Learning to do anything is multi-layered, so it comes down to what layer we seek to learn.

And based on that goal, will it determine what we value in a good wc teacher.

For some, fighting is it. For those that fight a lot, maybe they want to tweak a particular aspect of chi sao so they go to a chi sao guy. Others might want more insight into structure..so go to that guy and so on.

One thing tho - if the criteria is that an instructor has to have fought many other competent fighters (not just spar)...that really limits ur options! especially where its witnessed and somehow videotaped and applied across populations to show that its not just an individual or flook. I mean...how many people do we know that fills that criteria? Let's say 30 - of those, how many teach well? And I'm sure their teachers and their teachers teacher won't fill this criteria either!

What about those days when fighting didn't really go to the ground (like its popularized so much now) and were usually reset back to their feet? What about before the camera was invented! Before youtube?

Knifefighter and Terence - u guys are the two on here that I perceive to have the most experience and I think u can provide some insight then to what wc teachers we can look at models? Instead of pick on the wc gang here - how about provide some direction. What names would u suggest are top wc guys and why?

[Hendrik]

A good song to express my reply to this thread


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swBYoTEDH9Q&feature=related



千秋霸业,百战成功
边声四起唱大风
一马奔腾,射雕引弓
天地都在我心中


狂沙路万里关山月朦胧
寂寞高手一时俱无踪
真情谁与共生死可相从?
大事临头向前冲开心胸

Can some one who have good englsih please translate it?

[Knifefighter]

What names would u suggest are top wc guys and why?
Alan Orr & Rick Spain and thier guys.

[goju]

A couple of instructive things about that encounter.

1- These were two of the most highly skilled WC practioners on the planet at the time, yet that was the result of a real-time encounter.

2- It was obvious neither had much of a clue about what to do on the ground, yet emin was supposedly challenging the gracies to an nhb match.

3- It is understandable that both were pretty clueless on the ground, but there also seemed to be no WC skill displayed by either in the standing encounter also.
i dont know about considering emin one of the most skilled wc guys lol his teacher is one of the biggest mcdojo operators in the martial community

as far as the gracie challenge went i wouldnt be suprised if both of them chicken out bjj's effective but i think the gracies are just as bad as emin with their bogus street fights and challenges matches

and as far as the fight cant tel what goin on it look like emins trying to punch but i cant see if the punches are being blocked or not

[goju]

and allan ors guys have gotten the same criticism that their stuff dosnt look like wing chun when they fight as well so.............

[Knifefighter]

as far as the gracie challenge went i wouldnt be suprised if both of them chicken out bjj's effective but i think the gracies are just as bad as emin with their bogus street fights and challenges matches

LOL... I was at the Gracie academy during the biggest challenge days. There was nothing bogus about them.

[goju]

LOL... I was at the Gracie academy during the biggest challenge days. There was nothing bogus about them.
how about the fact that these karate guys and kung fu guys and who ever else they were suppose to have beat were nobody
never once have they challenged a karate, kung fu master, etc etc that was widely known in the martial art community they were all a bunch of guy no one ever heard of

and then when and oppurtunity to fight a master some one knew of say like the gene lebell episode or the benny the jet one... well nothin happened
their challenge matches are just as reliable as emins nonsense

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Actually, you are probably right. It's looks as though emin used Cheung's precarious 'headlock' to rotate him into what was either a conscious takedown or a more accidental fall. Either way, the headlock was what made the takedown (or slip), with Emin landing on top, so easy."
(Dale Franks, aka, Knifefighter)
.................................................

***DALE is correct about this, and in fact I believe, after watching the vid a zillion times by now over the years (after all, William Cheung is my sifu)...I think Boztepe did the prototypical lift, sweep, rotate takedown that can indeed work against a "precarious" headlock.

As to what exactly was left off the vid (especially the beginning)...and why William chose to do a headlock as a means of just trying to stop and neutralize the attack - as he (William) didn't want to take this to an all out fight since he was surrounded by about 6 of Boztepe's goons - this has been discussed and debated a zillion times also on a zillion threads by now (this incident took place 23 years ago)...

so it is what it is.

Now let's make a serious distinction here, especially for those of you who may be somewhat new to this forum: a distinction has to be made between Dale Franks (Knifefighter) and Terence Niehoff (Phantom Fighter).

Dale, for all his obnoxious behavior at times, is the real deal. He's not always right (and at times he's completely off the mark)...but at least he can prove that he's accomplished/experienced certain noteworthy and considerable martial arts achievements.

Terence Niehoff, on the other hand, can prove absolutely nothing about his own credentials/achievements - and constantly reminds us that he never intends to provide any such evidence (the key tipoff that he's probably little more than a mediocre martial artist, at best).

AND HE CONSTANTLY INVOKES DALE'S NAME AND CREDENTIALS AS A STANDARD THAT HE (TERENCE) INTENDS TO HIDE BEHIND.

So keep this in mind, wing chun forum: Terence wants everybody to sub-consciously believe (without ever saying it out loud) - that he and Dale Franks are joined at the hip.

In short, Terence is a poser and a nut-rider...and Dale is not.

[Hendrik]

...have gotten the same criticism that their stuff dosnt look like wing chun when they fight as well so.............



There is a reality everyone needs to face,

the platform of WCK is no longer the suppose to be platform thus it will not look like WCK.

However, on the other hand, what is WCK suppose to look like or function like? or how is WCK looks like in 1850?

and the evolution continous.... nothing good or bad just evolution.


It is political in correct but what if the original art of WCK has lost? and what we sees today is only our own version which we think it works but it is no longer what it is.

[anerlich]

Knifefighter and Terence - u guys are the two on here that I perceive to have the most experience

You are correct about Knifefighter, totally wrong about Terence.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . Knifefighter and Terence - u guys are the two on here that I perceive to have the most experience and I think u can provide some insight then to what wc teachers we can look at models? Instead of pick on the wc gang here - how about provide some direction. What names would u suggest are top wc guys and why?
I've trained WC for nearly 40 years and have fought full contact in competitions with WC. There are others here as well who have trained 30 + years. ;)

[Pacman]

i have never met tom wong but have heard amazing things about him...from what i have seen, everyone has awesome things to say about him (which is why i keep his site in my signature as a good Sum Nung Wing Chun teacher)

i hear he is equally skilled in a style that is not well known called Di Su (Shaolin ground fighting), that he learned to compliment WC's lack of ground game

I am not so sure if he is past his prime, as traditional masters like him continually train each and every day.

he is in Los Angeles--i would be curious for you to go visit him and touch hands. maybe even video tape it? i would love to see him fight!...but i doubt he'd let you tape it.

you dont see lots of demos or info on youtube or know much about him because i hear he is very very very traditional. that means he is very selective about giving away his training techniques and knowledge. like sum nung, he was very careful about being videotaped.

Edit:

Havent been to his site in a while. Found some videos:

http://www.wingchunkungfu.org/wing-chun-videos-photos.html

here is one on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzYXUAiqAj8


Absolutely. I'd love to see some legitimate proof of fighting ability, but I know how rare that is in the WC world... though Alan Orr's folk are looking pretty good.

Interesting to have you here Phrost, I've been going to Bullshido since the days it was known as Mcdojo.com, how long have you been on KFM?

Anyways, Welcome. Its great to have you here.




I don't mean to play down the fighting ability. I don't include it because many of these teachers are pretty old. I could touch hands with someone like Gary Lam or Thomas Wong and feel some skill, but they're so far past their primes that any legitimate proof of their fighting ability is going to be hard to come by. Like Freddie Roach is a great trainer but his fighting abilities are severely degraded from age and health issues.

It'd be great to see videos of them fighting. But its not very common. As Phrost said too, to judge it by their students but I doubt I'll ever find videos of their students fighting.

[Pacman]

That's exactly what happens with a good foot sweep.

The more you post, the more you demonstrate your ignorance.

this happens if you are sloppy. if it happens "most of the time" that just means you are unskilled at it.

thats like saying the likely consequence of throwing a punch is a counterpunch because you leave yourself open.

the results of the action are determined by the practitioner. there is no hard and fast rule of probability (like a law of nature) what is going to happen.

[Pacman]

Since you want to know who the hell he is, Knifefighter (Dale Franks) is a BJJ black belt who has fought in sub grappling and MMA competitions, and NHB bare-knuckle, not to mention one of the Dog Brothers.


ill concede that someone with a black belt in BJJ knows about BJJ...but we arent just discussing BJJ here. we are talking about a lot of different things.

having competed in bare knuckle competitions--even winning some matches, does not necessarily guarantee skill or knowledge.

[Pacman]

A couple of instructive things about that encounter.

1- These were two of the most highly skilled WC practioners on the planet at the time, yet that was the result of a real-time encounter.

please no...they were two of the most well known WC teachers. please don't insult WC by claiming emin and cheung were anywhere near the most skilled on the planet

[AdrianK]

i have never met tom wong but have heard amazing things about him...from what i have seen, everyone has awesome things to say about him (which is why i keep his site in my signature as a good Sum Nung Wing Chun teacher)

i hear he is equally skilled in a style that is not well known called Di Su (Shaolin ground fighting), that he learned to compliment WC's lack of ground game

I am not so sure if he is past his prime, as traditional masters like him continually train each and every day.

he is in Los Angeles--i would be curious for you to go visit him and touch hands. maybe even video tape it? i would love to see him fight!...but i doubt he'd let you tape it.

you dont see lots of demos or info on youtube or know much about him because i hear he is very very very traditional. that means he is very selective about giving away his training techniques and knowledge. like sum nung, he was very careful about being videotaped.

Edit:

Havent been to his site in a while. Found some videos:

http://www.wingchunkungfu.org/wing-chun-videos-photos.html

here is one on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzYXUAiqAj8


He's over in Monterey Park, which is about a half hour from me. I've been planning to go see him but currently don't have much time to go over there until later this year. I've exchanged a few emails with him about his classes, and will definitely let you know what I think of him once I go down there. I'll see about videotaping some stuff, but I don't have a decent video camera. Who knows though, maybe I'll pick one up in a few months. :D

[goju]

ill concede that someone with a black belt in BJJ knows about BJJ...but we arent just discussing BJJ here. we are talking about a lot of different things.

having competed in bare knuckle competitions--even winning some matches, does not necessarily guarantee skill or knowledge.
well put its about time some one had some grey matter

[Knifefighter]

this happens if you are sloppy. if it happens "most of the time" that just means you are unskilled at it.

thats like saying the likely consequence of throwing a punch is a counterpunch because you leave yourself open.

the results of the action are determined by the practitioner. there is no hard and fast rule of probability (like a law of nature) what is going to happen.

Judokas are arguably the best people on the planet at foot sweeps and they often go down with the opponent.

But please feel free to post the clips of you doing it better... of course, since you never do it in the first place, that would be impossible.

[Hendrik]

Judokas are arguably the best people on the planet at foot sweeps and they often go down with the opponent.

But please feel free to post the clips of you doing it better... of course, since you never do it in the first place, that would be impossible.


Dale,

In my opinion, one doesnt even have to go for individual performance and individual cannot represent whole system or style.

Just take a look at the characteristics and strength of the platform; things are very clear. That is because one cant effort to have a perfect execution. a platform represent the power of a standard execution which represent the art.

Sure, most will say " I am exception." similar to most says " I am exception and I would not catch cold" while there is a cold epidemic.

[goju]

Judokas are arguably the best people on the planet at foot sweeps and they often go down with the opponent.

But please feel free to post the clips of you doing it better... of course, since you never do it in the first place, that would be impossible.
but emin isnt a judoka nor does he use the sweep anywhere in the film thats the point

[RGVWingChun]

So.......

Ip Ching is totally the top Wing Chun guy out there....just thought I'd get us all back on track

Moses

[Pacman]

Judokas are arguably the best people on the planet at foot sweeps and they often go down with the opponent.

But please feel free to post the clips of you doing it better... of course, since you never do it in the first place, that would be impossible.

oh honestly. you need to get off your high horse. getting a BJJ black belt, having terrence on your sac, and competing in a tournament does not make you God of the all martial arts.

you are always so quick to tell everyone else how little they know or how little they do. why don't you show what you can do? im sure you have some evidence.

it doesnt matter if you competed in some tourneys or were part of a dog whatever club or have decades of experience. i have met many people with decades of experience who don't know squat. none of that suggests you know what your talking about.

so before you continue looking down your nose at everyone who disagrees with you on this forum down why don't you show your credentials first. im sure you have a vid of at least one of your numerous death matches right?

then we can give you your proper respect if warranted.

[Pacman]

Is this you?

http://www.mmafights.co.uk/fighter-4202-Dale-Frank.html

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=stats.fightCard&eid=da2844f7-811e-4eb7-92d8-98da4c8bd11d#fight_75616

[Museumtech]

please no...they were two of the most well known WC teachers. please don't insult WC by claiming emin and cheung were anywhere near the most skilled on the planet

hahahahaha

Check your facts before you fall into the trap of basing your opinion on a highly edited short clip. Look at the Yip man students who rate William Cheung as the best Wing Chun Fighter ever. Look at the Yip Man students who still wont forgive him for not turning up to the tournament that WSL failed at (and never fought again after). They thought he would have upheld Wing Chun.

Yes I am biased. He is my sifu. I am not an instructor. I do not need to flash any credentials. But I have checked my facts. At the time that mattered, he was the best.

Peter Lillywhite

[Ultimatewingchun]

For the record, Peter, I want to relate to you a conversation that I once had with my first wing chun sifu, Moy Yat, who I trained with for 8 years (before I became William Cheung's student, which I've been for the last 26 years).

I will never forget this, so here it is pretty much exactly word-for-word:

Victor: "Sifu, who was Yip Man's best student?"

Moy Yat: "Best in what? Best in forms? Best instructor? Best in chi sao? Best fighter?

Victor: Best fighter.

Moy Yat: "Cheung Chow Hing, Wong Shun Leung, and Bruce Lee."

Victor: "And who was the best of the three?"

Moy Yat: "Cheung Chow Hing". (Whose English name is William Cheung).
............................................

This was in 1975, long before William Cheung went public with Traditional Wing Chun (TWC), and then further alienated virtually all of his wing chun brethren with the additional claim that this version of wing chun was not only taught to him by Yip Man privately, but that Yip Man did so because he (Yip Man) wanted William to be the new wing chun Grandmaster after his death.

So yes, there was tremendous respect for William Cheung within the Yip Man clan before the advent of TWC, and that respect was based upon the fact that he was considered by many to be the premier fighter.

NOW WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS HERE IN 2009, in my opinion?

Not that much, because the world has passed those Hong Kong days of the 1950's by (when William, Wong, Bruce, and a bunch of others put Yip Man's school and wing chun on the map by going out and fighting).

A LOT HAS CHANGED IN THE MARTIAL ARTS WORLD SINCE THEN.

[t_niehoff]

You are correct about Knifefighter, totally wrong about Terence.

I readily admit Dale has loads more fighting experience than I. I don't consider myself in his league (I think very, very few people are). What expereince I do have is concerned mainly in trying to make my WCK functional.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Why don't you show us a little of what you mean by that, Terence?

As in: a vid of you in action.

[t_niehoff]

oh honestly. you need to get off your high horse. getting a BJJ black belt, having terrence on your sac, and competing in a tournament does not make you God of the all martial arts.

you are always so quick to tell everyone else how little they know or how little they do. why don't you show what you can do? im sure you have some evidence.

it doesnt matter if you competed in some tourneys or were part of a dog whatever club or have decades of experience. i have met many people with decades of experience who don't know squat. none of that suggests you know what your talking about.

so before you continue looking down your nose at everyone who disagrees with you on this forum down why don't you show your credentials first. im sure you have a vid of at least one of your numerous death matches right?

then we can give you your proper respect if warranted.

You're being disingenuous with that argument.

The correctness of Dale's views doesn't rest with his "credentials" nor does it rest with his personal abilities. In fact, even if he was friggin' Randy Couture, you'd still not accept what he was saying and you'd try to justify it with rationalizations, "Randy doesn't really know WCK" or "He's only a sport fighter" or "That's all external" or "That's just sport" or "He's not so good" or "He's only trying to sell his stuff" and so on. (BTW, fwiw, when Randy looked at some WCK videos his only comment was "that's silly.") You won't accept what he is saying because YOU DON"T WANT TO BELIEVE IT. Because if you accept what he is saying, it destroys your fantasy world. And many of you have invested a lot (time, money, ego, etc.) into that fantasy. I know -- I did too.

Fantasy guys can never point to any good, solid evidence that their theories really work in fighting. Nor can they offer any solid reasoning to support their views.

If knuckleheads really and truly want video evidence of what is or is not good fighting, IT ALREADY EXISTS and is readily available. If they want to learn how PROVEN good fighters train, IT ALREADY EXISTS and is readily available. That knowledge is already out there, and it doesn't depend on Dale's credentials or his abilities. But they ignore it. They make up silly reasons to ignore it. They ignore it because you don't want reality. Any knucklehead can walk into a MMA school or a MT school or set up some privates and have a go, and see whether or not they can really do what they believe they are training to do. They can go and see how fighters really train. That they haven't and won't do this reveals only that they don't want reality, that they want to remain ensconced in their fantasy, to continue living in their comfort-bubble, and not step outside their little pond into the real, cruel world of reality. But only in reailtiy can they find reality.

[CFT]

Why don't you show us a little of what you mean by that, Terence?Honestly, I think Terence has posted enough now for us to get the message.

1) Learn the curriculum
2) Apply against resisting opponents/training partners outside of your school/system.

Repeat (1) & (2) ad inifinitum (much like Terence's posts ;))

[t_niehoff]

Why don't you show us a little of what you mean by that, Terence?

As in: a vid of you in action.

So, you want me to help you out by showing you the things I've learned through my hard work? You want me to share with you how I've come to put things together for myself after spending hundreds of hours getting my ass kicked by boxers, MT fighters, MMA fighters? I see.

If you want to make your WCK functional, seeing me or anyone on video won't help you. The only way to making your WCK functional is the same way all fighters take -- THE WORK: going out and training/sparring with good, proven fighters. You won't do that. You won't do THE WORK.

But, if you ever come my way, I'll be happy to meet you and show you in person how I've put things together for myself.

[t_niehoff]

Honestly, I think Terence has posted enough now for us to get the message.

1) Learn the curriculum
2) Apply against resisting opponents/training partners outside of your school/system.

Repeat (1) & (2) ad inifinitum (much like Terence's posts ;))


That's a good start, but there is more.

How about don't beleive theory or so-called WCK authorities? That you only dvelop fighting skill by fighting, and fighting with QUALITY opponents?

How about don't believe stories and reputations and legends but only your eyes?

How about use your critical thinking skills -- look for solid evidence and sound reasoning -- in determining whether something is true or not?

I can keep going.

:)

[goju]

Is this you?

http://www.mmafights.co.uk/fighter-4202-Dale-Frank.html

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=stats.fightCard&eid=da2844f7-811e-4eb7-92d8-98da4c8bd11d#fight_75616
wowa whole1 and 1 record lol

[goju]

i dont think hes being disingenuous flashing your credentials around that really dont mean a **** thing dot help your argument. wow a bjj blackbelt who smacks other guys with sticks in their back yard lol yeah that means he knows wc

[goju]

You're being disingenuous with that argument.

The correctness of Dale's views doesn't rest with his "credentials" nor does it rest with his personal abilities. In fact, even if he was friggin' Randy Couture, you'd still not accept what he was saying and you'd try to justify it with rationalizations, "Randy doesn't really know WCK" or "He's only a sport fighter" or "That's all external" or "That's just sport" or "He's not so good" or "He's only trying to sell his stuff" and so on. (BTW, fwiw, when Randy looked at some WCK videos his only comment was "that's silly.") You won't accept what he is saying because YOU DON"T WANT TO BELIEVE IT. Because if you accept what he is saying, it destroys your fantasy world. And many of you have invested a lot (time, money, ego, etc.) into that fantasy. I know -- I did too.

Fantasy guys can never point to any good, solid evidence that their theories really work in fighting. Nor can they offer any solid reasoning to support their views.

If knuckleheads really and truly want video evidence of what is or is not good fighting, IT ALREADY EXISTS and is readily available. If they want to learn how PROVEN good fighters train, IT ALREADY EXISTS and is readily available. That knowledge is already out there, and it doesn't depend on Dale's credentials or his abilities. But they ignore it. They make up silly reasons to ignore it. They ignore it because you don't want reality. Any knucklehead can walk into a MMA school or a MT school or set up some privates and have a go, and see whether or not they can really do what they believe they are training to do. They can go and see how fighters really train. That they haven't and won't do this reveals only that they don't want reality, that they want to remain ensconced in their fantasy, to continue living in their comfort-bubble, and not step outside their little pond into the real, cruel world of reality. But only in reailtiy can they find reality.
seriously dude are you this guys groupie or what?

[goju]

For the record, Peter, I want to relate to you a conversation that I once had with my first wing chun sifu, Moy Yat, who I trained with for 8 years (before I became William Cheung's student, which I've been for the last 26 years).

I will never forget this, so here it is pretty much exactly word-for-word:

Victor: "Sifu, who was Yip Man's best student?"

Moy Yat: "Best in what? Best in forms? Best instructor? Best in chi sao? Best fighter?

Victor: Best fighter.

Moy Yat: "Cheung Chow Hing, Wong Shun Leung, and Bruce Lee."

Victor: "And who was the best of the three?"

Moy Yat: "Cheung Chow Hing". (Whose English name is William Cheung).
............................................

This was in 1975, long before William Cheung went public with Traditional Wing Chun (TWC), and then further alienated virtually all of his wing chun brethren with the additional claim that this version of wing chun was not only taught to him by Yip Man privately, but that Yip Man did so because he (Yip Man) wanted William to be the new wing chun Grandmaster after his death.

So yes, there was tremendous respect for William Cheung within the Yip Man clan before the advent of TWC, and that respect was based upon the fact that he was considered by many to be the premier fighter.

NOW WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS HERE IN 2009, in my opinion?

Not that much, because the world has passed those Hong Kong days of the 1950's by (when William, Wong, Bruce, and a bunch of others put Yip Man's school and wing chun on the map by going out and fighting).

A LOT HAS CHANGED IN THE MARTIAL ARTS WORLD SINCE THEN.
you can tell cheung knows his stuff just by watching him hes faster and more powerful than half those masters who bad mouthed him later

[chusauli]

I don't think its good to belittle anyone here. All it does is create resentment.

Dale had the courage to train and get into the ring, and has probably done a great deal of practical combat experience, empty handed and with weapons, which is a lot more than many others have done. Having that courage and desire to succeed despite many hardships of time and roadblocks (poor teaching, secrets, filtering through BS, superior legacies, etc), anyone who makes it there in actual testing field has my respect.

Just look at it from that perspective. We all struggle and have only gotten this far...

[sihing]

For the record, Peter, I want to relate to you a conversation that I once had with my first wing chun sifu, Moy Yat, who I trained with for 8 years (before I became William Cheung's student, which I've been for the last 26 years).

I will never forget this, so here it is pretty much exactly word-for-word:

Victor: "Sifu, who was Yip Man's best student?"

Moy Yat: "Best in what? Best in forms? Best instructor? Best in chi sao? Best fighter?

Victor: Best fighter.

Moy Yat: "Cheung Chow Hing, Wong Shun Leung, and Bruce Lee."

Victor: "And who was the best of the three?"

Moy Yat: "Cheung Chow Hing". (Whose English name is William Cheung).
............................................

This was in 1975, long before William Cheung went public with Traditional Wing Chun (TWC), and then further alienated virtually all of his wing chun brethren with the additional claim that this version of wing chun was not only taught to him by Yip Man privately, but that Yip Man did so because he (Yip Man) wanted William to be the new wing chun Grandmaster after his death.

So yes, there was tremendous respect for William Cheung within the Yip Man clan before the advent of TWC, and that respect was based upon the fact that he was considered by many to be the premier fighter.

NOW WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS HERE IN 2009, in my opinion?

Not that much, because the world has passed those Hong Kong days of the 1950's by (when William, Wong, Bruce, and a bunch of others put Yip Man's school and wing chun on the map by going out and fighting).

A LOT HAS CHANGED IN THE MARTIAL ARTS WORLD SINCE THEN.

Victor,

Didn't William leave HK before Moy Yat started training with Yip Man? If so, how would MY know personally of William's prowess as a street fighter for Wing Chun?

It would be logical to assume William was the best guy there at that time. He was bigger than both WSL, and Bruce, trained just as much and was athletic as well (didn't he play semi pro soccer?).

James

[goju]

I don't think its good to belittle anyone here. All it does is create resentment.

Dale had the courage to train and get into the ring, and has probably done a great deal of practical combat experience, empty handed and with weapons, which is a lot more than many others have done. Having that courage and desire to succeed despite many hardships of time and roadblocks (poor teaching, secrets, filtering through BS, superior legacies, etc), anyone who makes it there in actual testing field has my respect.

Just look at it from that perspective. We all struggle and have only gotten this far...
i agree but when you act like your bullocks weight ten tons over your credentials then this is where things get absurd

[hunt1]

People answer questions like this based on their own perceptions and backgrounds and tend to say their own teachers etc are best.

Very few have gone outside the comfort zone of their group or family to look for answers in an open minded fashion.

I have touched hands , learned from or been a classmate of almost 40% of the people named so far.I will not say who is the best on this list or who I think is one of the best , they are not on the list. However any opinion I have is from real experience with the people not based on stories or reputation.

RVG while Ip Ching is good I have found his wing chun method lacking in some area's. Same for Yip Chuns.

[sihing]

i agree but when you act like your bullocks weight ten tons over your credentials then this is where things get absurd

Repect is earned, not given. You have to respect Dale for his acheivements and his skills, but I don't respect him for his attitude towards others views. Even if you think the other guys doesn't know anything, sometimes it is better to say nothing to them, unless they ask for honest help, but Dale (like Terence) has an attachement problem, if it isn't their way, or expressed their way, then it doesn't work, and they fail to see anyother way. I for one agree with what they say on a basic level, I just don't like the disrespect and superior attitude they show others.

The problem with WC today is that people look at it like a Magic Pill, and that it can solve all their combat problems with great ease. WC is like anything worthwhile, if you want to be able to use it well, then you must work at it, on a consistent basis. If you want to see how it compares to other arts, work with other Martial Artistst and it will work itself out, very simple. I don't box a boxer, or wrestle a wrestler, I work with them, and use what I already have to deal with it, just like they have to do with me.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"So, you want me to help you out by showing you the things I've learned through my hard work?" (Terence Niehoff)
....................................


***OH, GOD... this is so incredibly funny!!!:D :p :cool:

That has got to be the lamest response you've ever made on this forum. Your reasons for not wanting to post any vids of yourself obviously have nothing to do with not wanting to help me (Victor)....

and everything to do with the fact that you're afraid to post something for fear that you will be exposed as a little-more-than-mediocre wing chun/whatever fighter who tries to talk, and talk, and talk as if he's someone who really knows and can perform what he knows.

Your response is paper thin, Terence. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor,

Didn't William leave HK before Moy Yat started training with Yip Man? If so, how would MY know personally of William's prowess as a street fighter for Wing Chun?" (James/sihing)
............................................

***YES,...Moy Yat never even met William Cheung until many years later (in the 1980's) here in NYC. All the more evidence of my point: William had a very big reputation with Yip Man's students who did see him fight - and they passed that assessment on to the guys who joined Yip Man's school after William left in 1959.

Moy Yat started with Yip Man in 1963, if I remember correctly.

But you had to know Moy Yat to appreciate just how much and how closely he kept his eyes, ears, and involvement within the Yip Man clan close to his heart. He was a traditionalist par excellance. For him, Yip Man's clan really was his "family", and he made it his business to know everything he possibly could about the system, about the history of who's who, about Yip Man, about who did what? When? Where? How? etc. That's why he asked me about "best instructor, best in forms, best in chi sao, best fighter," etc. He had answers to all of these kinds of questions at the tip of his tongue. And he had numerous stories to tell about this or that person or event, ie.- it was Moy Yat who was in charge of organizing Yip Man's birthday party every year that Moy Yat lived in Hong Kong after first becoming Yip Man's student.

He also, btw, carved the entire wing chun kuen kuit in stone.

[TenTigers]

nah, you're all wrong. The best WC'er is that kid with the ponytail and the red satin uniform and the huge sash
(forgot his name-but you know who I'm talking about)

[goju]

nah, you're all wrong. The best WC'er is that kid with the ponytail and the red satin uniform and the huge sash
(forgot his name-but you know who I'm talking about)
oh yeah that guy...he was bad ass wasnt he? lol

[RGVWingChun]

RVG while Ip Ching is good I have found his wing chun method lacking in some area's. Same for Yip Chuns.

I understand he has simplified a bit further from what his father already simplified and that I know of he doesn't have the teaching method that most teachers have today with drills and stuff like that...he's pretty simple....I have had the opportunity to train with his students including Ron Heimberger, Samuel Kwok and my Sifu, Matt Johnson but I have some video footage of his teaching and stuff and I like the fluidity and power of his movements especially

I will admit that I "shop around" when it comes to wing chun still and I have listened to different teachers and read other works....in a previous post I gave my props to DAvid Peterson's explanation of WSL's wing chun method and understanding...not too different from Ip Ching's in all honesty...hit em hard and fast!!! ;)

I'd be interested in hearing your opinion about the Ip brothers over private message some time =)

Moses

[punchdrunk]

of course just about all the names are big commercial ones with organisations and videos and books for sale. I say go out and meet them if possible yourself, otherwise everyone's naming their sifu or someone they've watched or read about, not exactly trusworthy info imo. Oohhh I like Gm so and so cause his video on youtube is soooo good!!

[Pacman]

You're being disingenuous with that argument.

The correctness of Dale's views doesn't rest with his "credentials" nor does it rest with his personal abilities.

THIS MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE in the context of my statements. i was not disputing his views, i was commenting on his supercilious disposition


You won't accept what he is saying because YOU DON"T WANT TO BELIEVE IT. Because if you accept what he is saying, it destroys your fantasy world. And many of you have invested a lot (time, money, ego, etc.) into that fantasy. I know -- I did too.

HA! I knew it. You ARE a bitter ex WC student. YOU ARE emotionally invested in your position. I could tell because whenever i or others bring up points you never address our responses, but dive into another one of your speeches like a broken record.

Ironically, you're mindset is JUST as you have described above...except of course now you have the opposite opinion, but you're willingness to listen to others is just as bad as that which you accuse.

that means you are dense (which i don't believe) or you didn't read our posts (possible) or you don't care what we say because you are too emotional to think clearly (possible).

FYI everything i believe, from religion to economics, is based on reason, logic, and/or personal experience. i do not leave anything to hope or daydreaming.

i have already addressed everything you have said in this post many many times.
i have addressed where i think you are wrong in your reasoning and where i think you have some fundamental misunderstandings.

i would type it again but i know you will not respond. you are always free to dispute what i have said and we can have a dialogue, but you never do. its always a monologue, a soapbox speech from you

[Pacman]

So, you want me to help you out by showing you the things I've learned through my hard work?


No. Since you act like a know-it-all, and you put down others in this forum, we want to see how much you actually know. We want to see why anything you say has any merit.


That's a good start, but there is more.

How about don't beleive theory or so-called WCK authorities? That you only dvelop fighting skill by fighting, and fighting with QUALITY opponents?

How about don't believe stories and reputations and legends but only your eyes?

How about use your critical thinking skills -- look for solid evidence and sound reasoning -- in determining whether something is true or not?

I can keep going.

:)

if you would take a breather and get off your soapbox you would see that you are preaching to the quire.

no one disagrees that to fight you need to practice fighting.

every response i have read from others that disagree with you just say that other excercises/drills are important too.

[Pacman]

Repect is earned, not given. You have to respect Dale for his acheivements and his skills, but I don't respect him for his attitude towards others views.

bottom line for dale and niehoff-- i, and im sure others, will accept your ***hole hardheaded mentality if you can back it up.

but until then, all we know is that Dale has a mediocre fighting record (I'm sorry but if that link shows your record then what else can you say about it. I give respect for having the guts to fight, but so far it doesn't seem you have the authority to be as pompous and ****y as you are) and that niehoff is a bitter ex WC guy who probably had a teacher who couldn't teach him any applications.

[goju]

and its just cagefighting yes it takes skill and deciation to become a fighter however its competion its not like your going to die going in on there
so saying you have one or two legit prozefights isnt worthy of going
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh! over lol

[Knifefighter]

bottom line for dale and niehoff-- i, and im sure others, will accept your ***hole hardheaded mentality if you can back it up.

but until then, all we know is that Dale has a mediocre fighting record (I'm sorry but if that link shows your record then what else can you say about it. I give respect for having the guts to fight, but so far it doesn't seem you have the authority to be as pompous and ****y as you are) and that niehoff is a bitter ex WC guy who probably had a teacher who couldn't teach him any applications.

My total # of MMA fights is 10.
My total # of Dog Bros NHB stickfighting matches is 43.
My total # of boxing/kickboxing matches is 18.
My total # of grappling matches is somewhere between 300 and 350.

[t_niehoff]

bottom line for dale and niehoff-- i, and im sure others, will accept your ***hole hardheaded mentality if you can back it up.

but until then, all we know is that Dale has a mediocre fighting record (I'm sorry but if that link shows your record then what else can you say about it. I give respect for having the guts to fight, but so far it doesn't seem you have the authority to be as pompous and ****y as you are) and that niehoff is a bitter ex WC guy who probably had a teacher who couldn't teach him any applications.

I am not a "bitter ex WC guy." WCK is still my primary art. But, like you and many others, I did at one time believe much of the fantasy and bullsh1t that permeates WCK "culture". What it took to get me to open my eyes was training/sparring with good, skillful fighters. And seeing how they trained to fight. Talking with proven fight trainers. That made me reevaluate how WCK is taught and trained. I saw that WCK is no different than any other athletic activity. It made me realize that the TMA model of training is really, really poor. So, while I continue to practice and train WCK, I do it now by trying to train like good fighters train, by sparring with good people and trying to make my WCK work, etc. No one is going to figure out how or develop the ability to fight well by not fighting with good people.

Lots of people have opinions and views of both WCK and fighting (and WCK is a way of fighting). The problem is most people haven't done the NECESSARY WORK to know WTF they are talking about. I listen to ANYONE who has done the work, even if they aren't WCK guys. But it doesn't really help to listen to people who haven't done that work, even WCK guys -- since they can't know. Does WCK work on the ground? If you haven't gone and sparred with good ground guys you can't know. Is simultaneous blocking and striking high lercentage? If you haven't gone and sparred with good boxers you can't know.

That's why I alwasy ask if you've gone and tried it against good, competent people. Because that's the work -- I'm asking if you've done the work. And the answer I always seem to get is, "no I haven't done the work, but . . . ".

What Dale or I can do or not do isn't really relevent to the question: have YOU done the work? If you think your sifu know, the question is: has he done that work? Without that work, any opinion, any view, etc. is mere theory, is fantasy, it's what you believe in your imagination about how things should work.

[grasshopper 2.0]

Ok, here's my attempt at trying to get the thread back on track...

Has anyone come across the likes of heinrich pfaff or salih avci? WT certainly has its share of crticisms, but at the same time, I think it has its plus's: that being such a huge organization that u also get others from other martial arts backgrounds (karate, wrestling, jiu jitsu, etc) also taking classes, perhaps "testing" out the instructors and all...

Anyway, anyone come across these guys? To me, they move very different from majority of wc/wt/vt/etc...I think it would be cool to check them out

Input appreciated

[goju]

My total # of MMA fights is 10.
My total # of Dog Bros NHB stickfighting matches is 43.
My total # of boxing/kickboxing matches is 18.
My total # of grappling matches is somewhere between 300 and 350.
and...... your still largely unknown nor does this make you more knowledgeable on the subject you speak on basically your just a bjj blackbelt

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I am not a 'bitter ex WC guy.' WCK is still my primary art. But, like you and many others, I did at one time believe much of the fantasy and bullsh1t that permeates WCK 'culture'. What it took to get me to open my eyes was training/sparring with good, skillful fighters. And seeing how they trained to fight. Talking with proven fight trainers. That made me reevaluate how WCK is taught and trained. I saw that WCK is no different than any other athletic activity. It made me realize that the TMA model of training is really, really poor. So, while I continue to practice and train WCK, I do it now by trying to train like good fighters train, by sparring with good people and trying to make my WCK work, etc. No one is going to figure out how or develop the ability to fight well by not fighting with good people." (Terence)
.................................................. .


***FINE. WCK is still your primary art, and you've spent a lot of time training/sparring with good, skillful fighters who have better training methods than "conventional" wing chun does. So show us something of the results of all of this! A picture is worth a thousand words! Instead of bombarding the forum with the same old dribble thousands of times - all of which amounts to you saying: "You guys suck and I've got it goin' on."

Prove it. :rolleyes:

[Pacman]

My total # of MMA fights is 10.
My total # of Dog Bros NHB stickfighting matches is 43.
My total # of boxing/kickboxing matches is 18.
My total # of grappling matches is somewhere between 300 and 350.

is there a way we can see your MMA or boxing/kickboxing matches

[Pacman]

Terrence

if you have read my posts you would see that i do agree with you on certain things.

as i have said many times, the majority of how WC and TCMA is taught is BS. bottom line they do not learn to apply the techniques through fighting. they teach sticky hands first and SLT...and then just do that for 10 years and then expect to know how to fight.

or, they fight with pure aggression and no skill and just front kick chain punch

so we really do not differ too much on the training aspect except that i believe you need to do other things than just start fighting (certain drills etc that you hate)

i do not disagree that we need to train functionally, i disagree with your assertion that all TCMA training is not functional. training is determined by each individual sifu and over the years TCMA training in general has been watered down across the board.

when you say things like this to me, "Is simultaneous blocking and striking high lercentage? If you haven't gone and sparred with good boxers you can't know." is when you really look like a pompous fool.

not only do you not know what i have or can do, you are automatically inferring that you have it all figured out. this is why people think that you think you are the supreme fighter. do you really wonder why we are calling for evidence of your superior fighting knowledge?



That's why I alwasy ask if you've gone and tried it against good, competent people. Because that's the work -- I'm asking if you've done the work. And the answer I always seem to get is, "no I haven't done the work, but . . . ".

if you had bother to read my posts in reply TO YOU i said i have. but you then said something to effect of "they weren't competent fighters"...as if you were psychic. let me tell you i actually have sparred against boxers on a few occasions who came to join my school a few years ago. they might not be de la hoya, but they have had 15+ yeras of experience.
and about the simultaneous block/punch--after learning and training with that focus one of them told me that it was one of the most simple and effective things they have every learned.


What Dale or I can do or not do isn't really relevent to the question: have YOU done the work? If you think your sifu know, the question is: has he done that work? Without that work, any opinion, any view, etc. is mere theory, is fantasy, it's what you believe in your imagination about how things should work.

again...i have argued these same statements over and over with you like a broken record. yes yes yes and yes. but you don't even attempt to believe me because i disagree with you and you have fighting all figured out so its impossible for me to disagree with you and to have gone through the learning process as you have, right?

this is why what you and dale can do is relevant. you indirectly claim to know it all, so we just want to see something.

[LSWCTN1]

Ok, here's my attempt at trying to get the thread back on track...

Has anyone come across the likes of heinrich pfaff or salih avci? WT certainly has its share of crticisms, but at the same time, I think it has its plus's: that being such a huge organization that u also get others from other martial arts backgrounds (karate, wrestling, jiu jitsu, etc) also taking classes, perhaps "testing" out the instructors and all...

Anyway, anyone come across these guys? To me, they move very different from majority of wc/wt/vt/etc...I think it would be cool to check them out

Input appreciated

i watched a couple of videos from each of those.

IMHO one of them had nothing to offer, no real power in striking and lots of unnecessary movement

the other had something to offer, but i'm not too sure that i'd even call it wck. although it seemed more effective than the other guy

[grasshopper 2.0]

i watched a couple of videos from each of those.

IMHO one of them had nothing to offer, no real power in striking and lots of unnecessary movement

the other had something to offer, but i'm not too sure that i'd even call it wck. although it seemed more effective than the other guy


i'm assuming the one with no power is "pfaff"? That's the thing - it looks like no power, but it's ridiculously powerful in a swift kind of way. The movements seem more fluid and generated from the entire body. of course, a lot of this is for show too - but there's something (to me) inherent in his moves that makes for a different WCK compared to the other more traditional chinese WCK. You can even see a difference between chinese WT and european WT.

I know there's not much in "sifu sez" so take it for what you will. My instructor is of German descent, learning WT before it got to what it is now. One of his teachers included Pfaff - he describes many times when students would try to go harder against him (since he's not a big guy) and these students are huge boxers, wrestlers, etc). Pfaff would just plow through them. Back then it was a different time - you got HUGE european guys from different martial arts who have turned to WCK...at that time, WT WCK must've been doing something right...

[t_niehoff]

when you say things like this to me, "Is simultaneous blocking and striking high lercentage? If you haven't gone and sparred with good boxers you can't know." is when you really look like a pompous fool.

not only do you not know what i have or can do, you are automatically inferring that you have it all figured out. this is why people think that you think you are the supreme fighter. do you really wonder why we are calling for evidence of your superior fighting knowledge?


I am saying that because it is true -- if you did go out and spar with skilled fighters you'd see that what I am telling you is true. But, YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT WORK. In my mind this means you either aren't serious or are friggin' lazy. I am doing you a favor by telling you what you need to do to find out, I am pointing you in the direction you need to go. But, you need to walk the path yourself.

Simultaneous blocking and striking (except when attaached or in a very few tactical contexts) is low percentage and high risk. Do you think only WCK has it? Boxing has it too. So do losts of arts. If it works so great and boxers have it, why don't we see them using it all the time (if it was high percentage)? Because they, including the world class level fighters, can't pull it off most of the time. Look at Phil's guys in their Lei Tei fights or any WCK fights. Where is all the blocking and striking atthe same time? It's not there.

This is similar to people who claim WCK will work on the ground. If you think so, then you are wrong. How do I know? From doing it, from fighting with good people on the ground. Maybe some WCK people they can do it against their students or classmates who aren't any good and don't know what they are doing and have some success. But that isn't any kind of test -- do you really only want stuff taht can work when your opponent is crap? All it takes to see that is to go spar with some good ground guys.

I am not a "supreme fighter"; I have never claimed to be. But, I do fight and with skilled people. I think that I'm competently skilled. I'VE DONE THE WORK. What you want is for me to show you my work. Sorry. DO YOUR OWN WORK. It won't help you to see another's work -- you've got to do it yourself.



if you had bother to read my posts in reply TO YOU i said i have. but you then said something to effect of "they weren't competent fighters"...as if you were psychic. let me tell you i actually have sparred against boxers on a few occasions who came to join my school a few years ago. they might not be de la hoya, but they have had 15+ yeras of experience.
and about the simultaneous block/punch--after learning and training with that focus one of them told me that it was one of the most simple and effective things they have every learned.


Bullsh1t.



again...i have argued these same statements over and over with you like a broken record. yes yes yes and yes. but you don't even attempt to believe me because i disagree with you and you have fighting all figured out so its impossible for me to disagree with you and to have gone through the learning process as you have, right?


I don't believe you because what you say is disproved by my own experience and by all available evidence -- not to mention common sense. For exmaple, if simul blocking and punching was indeed high percentage, then we should expect to see it all over the place, right? We should expect to see it when most WCK people fight, right? Or, is this something that only you can do? So, where is the evidence? Where are the examples of it working? Are they all kept secret? Why is it that no one can show it working against competently skilled fighters? Hmmm? Even you can't. Why?

The easiest thing to do to shut me up is just provide genuine evidence that I'm wrong -- if you think wCK works on the ground, show it; if you think simul blocking and striking is high percentage, show it. I don't mean you have to do it (you could) but show me ANYONE actually doing it against competently skilled fighters. But you can't. And the reason you can't is that there is no such evidence.



this is why what you and dale can do is relevant. you indirectly claim to know it all, so we just want to see something.

I don't directly or indirectly claim to "know it all". If you want to see what I can do, then visit me. I'll show you -- in person. I'll even take you down to my MMA gym and you can show me how you can pull off simul block and strikes against boxers. I'll videtape it if you like. You can put it up on youtube.

[Knifefighter]

or, they fight with pure aggression and no skill and just front kick chain punch


if you had bother to read my posts in reply TO YOU i said i have. but you then said something to effect of "they weren't competent fighters"...as if you were psychic. let me tell you i actually have sparred against boxers on a few occasions who came to join my school a few years ago. they might not be de la hoya, but they have had 15+ yeras of experience.

Funny how you b!tch and moan about my attitude, want to see my clips, put down how "most other" WC guys fight, claim to have done the work yourself, yet are unwilling to put up any proof that you have the slightest inkling of ever have done anything halfway competent yourself.

You see that's the problem with you and 99% of WC guys running around spouting their nonsense. You claim to have done the work and have the skills, yet when we call them on it and ask for some kind of evidence, they never seem to be able to produce any kind of evidence at all.

You and the 99% of WC guys who put down the 1% of WC guys who actually are doing it for real are the true hypocrites.

I've been around the martial arts scene long enough to know who the bull$hiters are and you are definitely one of them.

[Liddel]

Prove it. :rolleyes:

How about he posts a link to one of his training partners sparring or fighting or a fighter of one of the 'proven fight trainers'.... then we could see who hes hanging with... food for thought :rolleyes:

I dont say this to add to the background noise i really just like watching good fighting - and im quite curious :o

Anyway i think you all need a slice of humble pie, possibly laced with some tetra hydra canibanol, somtimes this forums a real drag. LOL :cool:

DREW

[Pacman]

I am saying that because it is true -- if you did go out and spar with skilled fighters you'd see that what I am telling you is true. But, YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT WORK. In my mind this means you either aren't serious or are friggin' lazy. I am doing you a favor by telling you what you need to do to find out, I am pointing you in the direction you need to go. But, you need to walk the path yourself.

this is getting annoying. i have told you i have. if you don't believe me that's one thing...but you keep talking like i never responded. its like im talking to a brick wall.



Simultaneous blocking and striking (except when attaached or in a very few tactical contexts) is low percentage and high risk. Do you think only WCK has it? Boxing has it too. So do losts of arts. If it works so great and boxers have it, why don't we see them using it all the time (if it was high percentage)? Because they, including the world class level fighters, can't pull it off most of the time.

like any move, you have to be able to make it work. maybe for some reason you or others can't make it work, but what im saying is that to state that this move cannot possible work like a law of nature is ridiculous

actually i have seen this in (now wait for it because i know you're gonna get a hard on) UFC. I have seen liddel and sylva do it. rashad evens too. i posted a link where machida did it too.

http://soxanddawgs.com/2009/05/24/video-lyoto-machida-knocks-out-rashad-evans/

look to the slow mo at 1:12

not that, that matters. there are many other reasons to list that a person does not use a certain move other than "it doesn't work. you are making a deductive fallacy, as well as "appealing to a higher authority fallacy". as a lawyer you should know without me pointing that out.

im sure you think knees work. following your logic, and your love for MT, every art would evolve into using knees like MT folks, because knees work well, right?


Look at Phil's guys in their Lei Tei fights or any WCK fights. Where is all the blocking and striking atthe same time? It's not there.

who knows why phils guys dont do it. i dont know them or phil or how phil trains. perhaps phil does not make coordinating both hands a focus of his training...or maybe he doesnt make simultaneous blocks and strikes a focus either. who knows. he teaches Phil Redmond Wing Chun. everyones WC is going to be different.


This is similar to people who claim WCK will work on the ground. If you think so, then you are wrong.

i dont. thats f*ckin ridiculous. i find that almost as ridiculous as people seeing a guy fight like a kickboxer and claiming its wing chun because he "controlled the center", as if that is all there is to WC.


I am not a "supreme fighter"; I have never claimed to be. But, I do fight and with skilled people. I think that I'm competently skilled. I'VE DONE THE WORK. What you want is for me to show you my work. Sorry. DO YOUR OWN WORK. It won't help you to see another's work -- you've got to do it yourself.

wrong. i dont want to see your work (your training and how you train). i want to see the results.

i know it won't help me, but im not looking for help. im looking for validation. you love validation right.

you say you've figured a lot of things out, which helped you become a good fighter. based on this premise, you put yourself on a pedestal. id be willing to change my views if i see that you can back up what you say.




Bullsh1t.

well thats more like it. at least i can see that you read what i posted. you're right. i am lying. unless i learn to fight like a MT fighter or learn your Wing Chun Muay Thai its impossible to beat anyone.




I don't believe you because what you say is disproved by my own experience and by all available evidence -- not to mention common sense. For exmaple, if simul blocking and punching was indeed high percentage, then we should expect to see it all over the place, right? We should expect to see it when most WCK people fight, right? Or, is this something that only you can do? So, where is the evidence? Where are the examples of it working? Are they all kept secret? Why is it that no one can show it working against competently skilled fighters? Hmmm? Even you can't. Why?

again. although not totally illogical there is a great deductive fallacy. another logical disconnect is that you yourself said that most WCK people suck at fighting because their training sucks...now i am supposed to look to the majority of WC people for validation?

i dont know if most WC people don't do it. if they don't...its probably because that is not a focus of their training. everyone's WC is different, even within the same lineage. some people think WC is influenced by shaolin, and so in their training they bring the hard, using force to overcome force mentality. others believe WC comes from wudan and so they have a different focus in their training.

its no secret. most of the 12 san sik of SN wing chun is all about simultaneous blocks and strikes. sum nung's favorite move involved this. sorry i do not have video of sum nung fighting.

read post above. i posted examples of your favorite competent fighters doing it.



The easiest thing to do to shut me up is just provide genuine evidence that I'm wrong -- if you think wCK works on the ground, show it; if you think simul blocking and striking is high percentage, show it. I don't mean you have to do it (you could) but show me ANYONE actually doing it against competently skilled fighters. But you can't. And the reason you can't is that there is no such evidence.

i made a post before about machida using it against rashad evans. now you can shut up about it



I don't directly or indirectly claim to "know it all". If you want to see what I can do, then visit me. I'll show you -- in person. I'll even take you down to my MMA gym and you can show me how you can pull off simul block and strikes against boxers. I'll videtape it if you like. You can put it up on youtube.

well if i ever want to go to america's armpit then i will.

[Pacman]

Funny how you b!tch and moan about my attitude, want to see my clips, put down how "most other" WC guys fight, claim to have done the work yourself, yet are unwilling to put up any proof that you have the slightest inkling of ever have done anything halfway competent yourself.

you're right. i haven't been passive to your condescension.

the main difference is that i dont back up my views with hinting that i know it all and (except for you and T), i dont condescend.

i think you can critique people--thats fine. but there is a difference with how you say things. if i were to say "i disagree because..." versus "bullsh!t you haven't ever done it yourself. you can't. if you fought and trained with quality people you would already know that..."

see the difference? as a mature adult i'm sure you can tell. (see how @$$hole that last comment was?)


You see that's the problem with you and 99% of WC guys running around spouting their nonsense. You claim to have done the work and have the skills, yet when we call them on it and ask for some kind of evidence, they never seem to be able to produce any kind of evidence at all.

the only claims that i made are

1. simultaneous blocks/strikes can work. i posted evidence of that
2. there is a difference between "internal" and "external" martial arts

so i gave evidence of #1. #2 is pure opinion. no proof possible.



You and the 99% of WC guys who put down the 1% of WC guys who actually are doing it for real are the true hypocrites.

i criticqued that one video. i didnt say that they suck or are worthless or phony. i made a factual observation that they weren't using much technique, just flying towards each other throwing punches as fast as they could. the youtube poster said that himself. i think thats a pretty reasonable thing to say on these forums.

[Knifefighter]

i criticqued that one video. i didnt say that they suck or are worthless or phony. i made a factual observation that they weren't using much technique, just flying towards each other throwing punches as fast as they could. the youtube poster said that himself. i think thats a pretty reasonable thing to say on these forums.

And I'm saying provide the evidence of WC fighters using WC without looking like that. If you have access to either fighting yourself using WC without doing it that way or others fighting without doing it that way, it should be relatively simple to provide some evidence.

[Pacman]

i dont even have to do that. its not about WC specifically. look to your favorite ufc mma fighters. they do not brawl. they use technique.

you didnt respond to the machida vid. im glad you liked it

[Knifefighter]

i dont even have to do that. its not about WC specifically. look to your favorite ufc mma fighters. they do not brawl. they use technique.
So, show some examples (any examples) of someone using what you think WC technique is.




you didnt respond to the machida vid. im glad you liked it
That was not simultaneous block/strike. The strike came after he caught the strike. However, if that is what you consider simultaneous block/strike, I'm in agreement that you can pull that off... happens all the time.

[t_niehoff]

That was not simultaneous block/strike. The strike came after he caught the strike. However, if that is what you consider simultaneous block/strike, I'm in agreement that you can pull that off... happens all the time.

Exactly -- that was block/parry, then strike (1-2 beat timing) rather than simul block and strike (1 beat timing). And that happens all the time.

[Pacman]

So, show some examples (any examples) of someone using what you think WC technique is.

whether i can find something on youtube about WC is irrelevant. the point is differentiating between using technique and not



That was not simultaneous block/strike. The strike came after he caught the strike. However, if that is what you consider simultaneous block/strike, I'm in agreement that you can pull that off... happens all the time.

simultaneous blocks/strikes do not mean that they need to land at the same time. the key is that you do not separate a block and a strike into two separate movements.

even though the punch landed after (because the target, his face, was ****her away) if you watch, machida's body is moving to strike as soon as he sees the punch from evans coming. his right hand deflected the attack as he continued to move with his body going to strike--one movement.

an example of separating blocks and strikes into separate movements is when boxers cover up when attacked and then attack back. not saying this is a bad thing to do, just specifying the difference.

[TenTigers]

two things:
1) someone posted that (correct me if I'm wrong)Randy Couture saw some vids of WCK and said they were silly. Which vids? We've all seen vids that we thought were silly. There's alot of silly stuff out there.
so that comment means nothing.

2) Dale, your experience in BJJ, grappling, Stickfighting, and MMA, definately makes you the go-to guy on these subjects. I think we can all agree on that.

Would you care to share your experience in Wing Chun?
What style did you study?
for how long?
and under whom?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"this is getting annoying. i have told you i have. if you don't believe me that's one thing...but you keep talking like i never responded. its like im talking to a brick wall." (Pacman)
..................................

***YOU ARE.

[goju]

i wouldnt knock the wc fighters saying ow great there stuff is and not backing it up knife fighter
after all these gracie challenges have largely been bogus with supposed martial art masters know one has even heard of

[goju]

Exactly -- that was block/parry, then strike (1-2 beat timing) rather than simul block and strike (1 beat timing). And that happens all the time.
seriously man is your groin sore from riding this guys balls all day long?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Correct wing chun "simultaneous" block and strike is usually a beat-and-a-half.

The block is on the beat, and the strike is on the half.

Terence, once again, is incorrect. But I've come to expect little more than that from Terence.

[goju]

thats common sense in all the block strike techniques in any of the southern chinese styles of gung fu its not EXACTLY AT THE SAME TIME its a beat after
if it was exactly at the same time it would look goofy

[Phil Redmond]

. . . Look at Phil's guys in their Lei Tei fights or any WCK fights. Where is all the blocking and striking atthe same time? It's not there. . .
There is a very clear example that I posted on youtube that shows a LSDD. I guess you missed it. :rolleyes:

[Pacman]

There is a very clear example that I posted on youtube that shows a LSDD. I guess you missed it. :rolleyes:

you see, phil, if you had ever fought and trained with competent fighters you would know that that move won't work consistently. you're students also do not fight with competent fighters, because they do things i disagree with.

now, where is dale's so i can hug him?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think he might be watching one of Terence's ultra secret "I'm competently skilled" sparring vids right about now, over some popcorn and beer.

[t_niehoff]

There is a very clear example that I posted on youtube that shows a LSDD. I guess you missed it. :rolleyes:

One.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said it was low percentage (and high risk). How often does simul blocks and strikes appear in fighting? Not very often. Out of all your videos, you can post one example. Isn't that by definition something that is low percentage?

And, btw, lien siu die da is much more than simul block and strike -- linking defense/checking to bring in striking (lien siu die da) has wider implications.

[t_niehoff]

I think he might be watching one of Terence's ultra secret "I'm competently skilled" sparring vids right about now, over some popcorn and beer.


Yes, you do seem to love your videos -- since that's how you learn your grappling, your boxing, etc. ;)

Why don't you actually turn off your TV and get off your ass and really visit some good gyms, some good, skilled people and train with them? I promise you it will open a whole new world when you step outside your comfort-bubble and small pond of students.

[Phil Redmond]

you see, phil, if you had ever fought and trained with competent fighters you would know that that move won't work consistently. you're students also do not fight with competent fighters, because they do things i disagree with.

now, where is dale's so i can hug him?
There are no competent fighters outside of St. Louis I guess. :rolleyes:

[LSWCTN1]

Yes, you do seem to love your videos -- since that's how you learn your grappling, your boxing, etc. ;)



hold up Jack! isnt that how you learnt Pien San?!?!

Glass house dwellers and all that...

[CFT]

hold up Jack! isnt that how you learnt Pien San?!?!

Glass house dwellers and all that...IIRC, he learnt Gulao first hand from Robert Chu sifu.

[LSWCTN1]

IIRC, he learnt Gulao first hand from Robert Chu sifu.

was that not not afterwards :confused:.

could be wrong, its been known before :o

[t_niehoff]

There are no competent fighters outside of St. Louis I guess. :rolleyes:

They are all over the place. Go to any decent MMA gym and you'll find some. Go to any decent boxing gym and you'll find some. Go to any decent MT school and you'll find some.

If you believe that simul block and strike is high percentage, then go to a good boxing gym and spar (hard) with some good guys and SEE. I've done it. I've seen. I can do tan das and pak das and guan das consistently, all day long when the intensity isn't high and my opponent isn't really skilled (good at punching) but when the intensity goes up and so does the level of his striking (which doesn't involve just the hands but how he moves, sets up his punches, etc.) the ability to pulll those things off goes way, way down. Go see for yourself. And since you seem to love videotaping things, put up the video showing how I am entirely mistaken.

Do you really think only WCK knows about simul block and strike? Boxers have it. MMA fighters have it. And if world-class level fighters can't pull them off consistently, do you think that you can?

[t_niehoff]

was that not not afterwards :confused:.

could be wrong, its been known before :o

Everything I've learned in martial arts (judo, boxing, pekiti, BJJ, etc.), WCK included, has been hand-on.

[goju]

They are all over the place. Go to any decent MMA gym and you'll find some. Go to any decent boxing gym and you'll find some. Go to any decent MT school and you'll find some.

If you believe that simul block and strike is high percentage, then go to a good boxing gym and spar (hard) with some good guys and SEE. I've done it. I've seen. I can do tan das and pak das and guan das consistently, all day long when the intensity isn't high and my opponent isn't really skilled (good at punching) but when the intensity goes up and so does the level of his striking (which doesn't involve just the hands but how he moves, sets up his punches, etc.) the ability to pulll those things off goes way, way down. Go see for yourself. And since you seem to love videotaping things, put up the video showing how I am entirely mistaken.

Do you really think only WCK knows about simul block and strike? Boxers have it. MMA fighters have it. And if world-class level fighters can't pull them off consistently, do you think that you can?
yes thats you perhaps you cant do it but that dosnt mean the millions of wing chun students out there cant dummmy sheeeeeesh

[Knifefighter]

yes thats you perhaps you cant do it but that dosnt mean the millions of wing chun students out there cant dummmy sheeeeeesh

How long have you trained WC? Who is your instructor?

[CFT]

yes thats you perhaps you cant do it but that dosnt mean the millions of wing chun students out there cant dummmy sheeeeeeshYeah right, millions of highly-skilled, peace-loving, tree-hugging, non-aggressive, publicity-shy WCK students. Man, what the UFC, K1, etc. are missing out on! :rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

yes thats you perhaps you cant do it but that dosnt mean the millions of wing chun students out there cant dummmy sheeeeeesh

It doesn't matter how many millions of people pracdtice something -- what matters is where is the evidence of them being able to do it? Well, where are these people? In hiding?

Your logic is faulty.

We base sound conclusions on evidence. So where is the evidence of WCK practitioners actually consistently and regularly (high percentage) pulling simul block and punches off against skilled fighters? Are you suggesting that just because there is no evidence we should believe it anyway?

If there are millions of people doing it, then shouldn't there be loads of evidence? Sort of like Bigfoot-- if there were millions of Bigfoot, shouldn't we expect to see ONE?

As I said, simul block and punch isn't unique to WCK. Boxing has it. MMA has it. It is a useful tactic in certain, limited situations. Otherwise it is a low-percentage, high risk tactic. And that's why we don't see it much in boxing or MMA, though if you looked you could find examples of it used limitedly.

[Pacman]

It doesn't matter how many millions of people pracdtice something -- what matters is where is the evidence of them being able to do it? Well, where are these people? In hiding?

Your logic is faulty.

We base sound conclusions on evidence. So where is the evidence of WCK practitioners actually consistently and regularly (high percentage) pulling simul block and punches off against skilled fighters? Are you suggesting that just because there is no evidence we should believe it anyway?

If there are millions of people doing it, then shouldn't there be loads of evidence? Sort of like Bigfoot-- if there were millions of Bigfoot, shouldn't we expect to see ONE?

As I said, simul block and punch isn't unique to WCK. Boxing has it. MMA has it. It is a useful tactic in certain, limited situations. Otherwise it is a low-percentage, high risk tactic. And that's why we don't see it much in boxing or MMA, though if you looked you could find examples of it used limitedly.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

just because you do not see something does not mean you can logically conclude it does not work.

there are many other factors to why you do not see things

[t_niehoff]

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


Actually, in many cases it is. Do you think the absence of evidence of Bigfoot isn't evidence that it doesn't exist? When we should expect to see evidence, then the absence of that evidence is evidence.



just because you do not see something does not mean you can logically conclude it does not work.


Rational people base their conclusions on evidence; to not base your conclusions on evidence is to be, by definition, irrational (rationality provides we use good evidence and sound reasoning to draw conclusions).

None of you have ever seen simul blocks and punches used consistently and regualrly, as high percentage tactics, against decently skilled people. Not a one. Yet many believe it, why?

Now, if you say, I have seen it or I can use it as a high percentage tactic, then showing that should be a simple thing, right?



there are many other factors to why you do not see things

That's the motto of the fantasy martial artists.

[t_niehoff]

Correct wing chun "simultaneous" block and strike is usually a beat-and-a-half.

The block is on the beat, and the strike is on the half.

Terence, once again, is incorrect. But I've come to expect little more than that from Terence.

Let me ask you, Victor, what does the word "simultaneous" mean to you? Do you use that word with an entirely different meaning than everyone else in the english-speaking world?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/simultaneous

simultaneous = "existing or occurring at the same time : exactly coincident "

Using the Parlati "definition" of simultaneous to mean beat-and-a-half, if I did a cross pak sao and then hit with the same hand but struck on the half-beat, then I'd be doing a simul block and strike!

To do a simul block and punch, you need to perform both actions at the same time, not start one and then the other.

[Pacman]

Let me ask you, Victor, what does the word "simultaneous" mean to you? Do you use that word with an entirely different meaning than everyone else in the english-speaking world?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/simultaneous

simultaneous = "existing or occurring at the same time : exactly coincident "

Using the Parlati "definition" of simultaneous to mean beat-and-a-half, if I did a cross pak sao and then hit with the same hand but struck on the half-beat, then I'd be doing a simul block and strike!

To do a simul block and punch, you need to perform both actions at the same time, not start one and then the other.

forget this beat and beat and a half bs. i dont know what thats about. there is no correlation as to when one lands and the other lands, as every fight situation will be different

it is simultaneous because they start at the same time.

when you see a punch coming, instead of starting the block.,finishing the block, then starting the strike you start the strike and block at the same time. its one move. its not two different moves.

whether your fist lands on his face first or your other hand deflects his fist first is inconsequential.

[goju]

It doesn't matter how many millions of people pracdtice something -- what matters is where is the evidence of them being able to do it? Well, where are these people? In hiding?

Your logic is faulty.

We base sound conclusions on evidence. So where is the evidence of WCK practitioners actually consistently and regularly (high percentage) pulling simul block and punches off against skilled fighters? Are you suggesting that just because there is no evidence we should believe it anyway?

If there are millions of people doing it, then shouldn't there be loads of evidence? Sort of like Bigfoot-- if there were millions of Bigfoot, shouldn't we expect to see ONE?

As I said, simul block and punch isn't unique to WCK. Boxing has it. MMA has it. It is a useful tactic in certain, limited situations. Otherwise it is a low-percentage, high risk tactic. And that's why we don't see it much in boxing or MMA, though if you looked you could find examples of it used limitedly.
no your logic is faulty you foolishly assume because you arent competant enough to pull off wing chun that it must not work the problem is not the art butyou buddy perhaps if you spent more time training in stead of yapping on the internet your wing chun would look better

[goju]

Yeah right, millions of highly-skilled, peace-loving, tree-hugging, non-aggressive, publicity-shy WCK students. Man, what the UFC, K1, etc. are missing out on! :rolleyes:
actually arguin because we dont see wc in mma is rediculus the sport is new and is barely evolving not long ago idiots said karate didnt work and was useless in a real fight and now look what we have a karate fighter as light heavy weight champion of the ufc

[Pacman]

Actually, in many cases it is. Do you think the absence of evidence of Bigfoot isn't evidence that it doesn't exist? When we should expect to see evidence, then the absence of that evidence is evidence.


holy crap you dont know anything about WC or first order logic. you must be a real estate lawyer.

considering strictly the fact that you have not seen hard evidence is actually not evidence that Bigfoot does not exist.

we never knew about dark matter or atoms or galaxies out there for thousands of years. but it does exist.


Rational people base their conclusions on evidence; to not base your conclusions on evidence is to be, by definition, irrational (rationality provides we use good evidence and sound reasoning to draw conclusions).

ahh you are a sneaky lawyer after all. dont pull a strawman on me. i never suggested to base conclusions on fantasy. im actually saying that you CANNOT make YOUR conclusion

[duende]

Just a side note.

The argument here may just be due to cultural differences in regards to "timing" and usages of the term "simultaneous".

In eastern culture for instance, the notion of "one beat" is much more based on a macrocosmic perspective of time. For instance if one has a handful of pebbles in there hand, and drops them all to the ground. They may not all hit at the exact same time. However the grouping of them all hitting at and around the same moment still constitutes "one beat".

This is typical in Asian music for instance.

However, from a western perspective these relationships between the pebbles hitting would be divided out into micro instances detailing exactly which pebble hit first an so on.

[Pacman]

As I said, simul block and punch isn't unique to WCK. Boxing has it. MMA has it. It is a useful tactic in certain, limited situations. Otherwise it is a low-percentage, high risk tactic. And that's why we don't see it much in boxing or MMA, though if you looked you could find examples of it used limitedly.

when you say boxing or MMA have it you mean that they literally can do some sort of simultaneous block and strike movement. of course they can--they can physically do that movement.

the question is how do they train?

do they practice that move consistently? no. is that a core fundamental philosophy of their system? no. do they train with the focus of that in their minds? no.

we dont see it in boxing because they train to bob and weave and cover up when they see attacks. they dont train to use one arm to parry while using the other to strike.

same goes with other arts.

[goju]

There was actually a student oF gm william cheung who was a boxing champion and used wing chun in his fights i dont remember his name though

[LSWCTN1]

Kosta Tyzu i believe?

not a bad boxer by anybodys standard

[goju]

i could have swore it was a black fellow but i may be wrong
or there could have been more than one

[anerlich]

Kosta Tyzu i believe?


Kostya Tszyu was NEVER a student of Wing Chun or William Cheung. Where do you get this stuff from?

[LSWCTN1]

Kostya Tszyu was NEVER a student of Wing Chun or William Cheung. Where do you get this stuff from?

ok, i'll correct myself - i understood that he learnt IP from him

[Paul T England]

If you slip a punch and counter punch that is similatnious attack and defence in my book.....tan da etc is for beginners....although it works on an advance dlevel as the "block" is really a cover no contact need be made, the punch or attack is the essence....

Also competition fighting is different from self defence / street fighting....so comparing apples and oranges will get you nowhere IMHB......

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Edmund]

ok, i'll correct myself - i understood that he learnt IP from him

If you mean Iron Palm, Kostya Tszyu did that with Lawrence Lee I believe.



simultaneous = "existing or occurring at the same time : exactly coincident "

Seriously are you Aspergian or something Terence?
You quote from the dictionary being pedantic as hell. Regularly repeating yourself in a long-winded way and incredibly single-minded to the point of social awkwardness. You got zero empathy for anyone other than yourself.

That clip was slo-moed massively. In real time, it was at the same time to normal human perception! The fact you still want to argue about it not being frame-by-frame simultaneous shows how stubborn you are.

[AdrianK]

If you slip a punch and counter punch that is similatnious attack and defence in my book.....

Though from the point of view of the English language, it is not. And in the transmission of ideas, such as a forum, it is important to speak/write in a language people can understand, instead of assigning definitions yourself.

Anyways, the Concepts
blocking then striking
blocking simultaneously striking
moving then striking
moving while simultaneously striking
deflecting then striking
deflecting simultaniously striking
intercepting strike

are all separate ideas.

IMHO, its important to understand where each of these begin, and where each of these end when training your reactions, abilities and strategies.

[Phil Redmond]

Though from the point of view of the English language, it is not. And in the transmission of ideas, such as a forum, it is important to speak/write in a language people can understand, instead of assigning definitions yourself.

Anyways, the Concepts
blocking then striking
blocking simultaneously striking
moving then striking
moving while simultaneously striking
deflecting then striking
deflecting simultaniously striking
intercepting strike

are all separate ideas.

IMHO, its important to understand where each of these begin, and where each of these end when training your reactions, abilities and strategies.

Good post but blocking simultaneously striking and deflecting simultaneously striking
are essentially the same thing since most WC people learn that blocking implies using force or over commitment

[LSWCTN1]

If you mean Iron Palm, Kostya Tszyu did that with Lawrence Lee I believe.



lol... i stand corrected :o

[k gledhill]

Though from the point of view of the English language, it is not. And in the transmission of ideas, such as a forum, it is important to speak/write in a language people can understand, instead of assigning definitions yourself.

Anyways, the Concepts
blocking then striking
blocking simultaneously striking
moving then striking
moving while simultaneously striking
deflecting then striking
deflecting simultaniously striking
intercepting strike

are all separate ideas.

IMHO, its important to understand where each of these begin, and where each of these end when training your reactions, abilities and strategies.

all of the above make sense to me...all one idea...you just have to have the ability shown to you. VT is this ATTACK IDEA

If you train each arm to have the BASIC required ability to be able to BOTH strike along the line & by using inwards elbows create acute enough angles to allow a sliding deflection past your forward strikes line ....you can then incorporate all of the above into one idea , furthering your ability to maintain a flowing attack.

to be able to deliver a seamless attack you need to have the basic arm actions available in each arm, then using 'angle facing' to shift and do the above and as Paul T mentions
slipping ....

A lot of punches dont need to be 'blocked' as the redundant method of tan in the gate block ideas , simply because your tactically shifting/slipping in a space long before you get caught like a statue with both arms extended before you as YOU turn to face an incoming punch :o it works in class with willing students who pull the punch.

If you keep both strikes following the line your centerline points to , you free yourself to be able to shift and parry , slip, dual attack hand counter WHILE being a moving shifting target your self....

to make the shifting and angling WHILE doing the BASIC hands is in chi-sao seung ma toi ma stepping / seung ma....angling or side step toi ma.....randomly done while also using the arms angles individually ...you develop this fighting ability.

One of the keys ideas is to not x the line yourself on your own block/parry/etc...engage the line then strike directly from the best angle available.
Tactically directed by avoiding being in front of the guys 2 working hands at any given time...or trying t stop his ability form working with 2 free hands facing you...

one of the problems is that many teachers think the starting point of chi-sao is the whole idea...face squarely , extend 2 arms and roll etc....sticking controlling trapping ... no movement involved or any cohesive tactical use for the whole idea...you get great at playing the game with willing partners who do the right thing at the right time ...you grab with a lop and then chop ...
aka grab laterally off line and lift your elbows to gain entry ...not good ....
Further compounding the use the wrists on the very end of the 'gun barrel' to stick and FEEEL the other guys wrists ..tsk tsk...no alignment training ..no elbow idea being developed...tactics ? what tactics...? from no contact where is the entry point? who starts ? what side do you want ?
how are you going to overwhelm the guy when your only going to attack with equalizing techniques...arm for arm, hand for hand...2 hands fighting one together...more than 2 consecutive defensive actions in an attacking flow ? thats not attacking anymore is it ?


Until you accept that the tan & Jum are the first 1/2 of a strike in training to strike out along the centerline ...NOT to leave it or act as 1-2 beats as the advanced idea you wont ever develop yourself in this way...when tan leaves the line its not going to hit whats in front of your centerline...you will always be chasing with a tan sao...tan sao is a strike in the forms for elbow position...jum is a strike with elbow positions...all relative to the side you attack what rotation cycle you adopt...what tactical angle your in at that given second...striking , attacking...

the rest of the system is devoted to RECOVER this ability thoughtlessly...seamlessly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The top WC guys are those that can not only USE their WC effectively (in what ever case they need to use them) but can pass on that to their students and their students show it.

[k gledhill]

Desmond Spencer very talented individual

[Phil Redmond]

There was actually a student oF gm william cheung who was a boxing champion and used wing chun in his fights i dont remember his name though
He STILL is a boxing champion. In fact he just won a fight this past Friday night in Atlantic City. ;)

[AdrianK]

Good post but blocking simultaneously striking and deflecting simultaneously striking
are essentially the same thing since most WC people learn that blocking implies using force or over commitment

In terms of WC, absolutely. Since I also practice boxing and other styles I separate the two as blocking is more literally blocking a path. For instance, if someone throws a body shot and you lower your elbow, and counter-punch.

[AdrianK]

He STILL is a boxing champion. In fact he just won a fight this past Friday night in Atlantic City. ;)

Kostya Tszyu? Or someone else?

[goju]

He STILL is a boxing champion. In fact he just won a fight this past Friday night in Atlantic City. ;)
whats the the fellas name?

[LSWCTN1]

Desmond Spencer very talented individual

i have heard it said before - although would you say that he's the best in london?

pm me if you feel it ore appropriate

[k gledhill]

i have heard it said before - although would you say that he's the best in london?

pm me if you feel it ore appropriate

For WSL VT yes.... I met P Bayer through Desmond

[bennyvt]

as far as cheung and emin being the best at the time. Dont think so. I know of one person that was massivly better then them hence both cheung and emins 'great almighty grand master' hiding when he challenged them offically with the scrolls etc. And this person had his school about 100 kms away from the castle when they were going around challenging all the old guys. Sort of like when almighty grand master got people to invite lun gai (80 or 90 years old) and get one of his students to try and smash him in the hotel room. When he was just trying to teach..

[Phil Redmond]

as far as cheung and emin being the best at the time. Dont think so. I know of one person that was massivly better then them hence both cheung and emins 'great almighty grand master' hiding when he challenged them offically with the scrolls etc. And this person had his school about 100 kms away from the castle when they were going around challenging all the old guys. Sort of like when almighty grand master got people to invite lun gai (80 or 90 years old) and get one of his students to try and smash him in the hotel room. When he was just trying to teach..
Please share with us who this person is. Or is it just hearsay?

[goju]

cheung invited all the guys who were students of yip man and were talking **** to him he didnt make a challenge to anybody who wanted to fight him

[Phil Redmond]

If you're referring to the "meeting" around 1979? or 80? in HK, I have footage and photos of some of the top WC guys there with Wm. Cheung. It all seemed friendly to me.
None of the lineage crap really matters to me though. What matters to me is that WC people and other TMAs should get out there and compete to see what works and doesn't like I did and a small few others did and are doing. ;)

[Sihing73]

Please share with us who this person is. Or is it just hearsay?

Hate to add to that fray but seems like idle talk to me. I trained "at the castle" as well as all over Southern Germany while I was there and I never heard of anyone even teaching WC or similar. Of course I was there in 85-86 so perhaps they came out afterwards. I did not hear of Andreas Hoffman until Complete Wing Chun came out.

FWIW I do not think the "incident" with Emin and WC was anything but a poor display. One of my Sihings and primary trainer was there with Emin when this took place, Klaus Hennrich. I never really thought it solved or proved anything and look upon it as more of an embarrasment than anything else.

It seems to me that people are more often able to meet and be friends despite lineage but organizations fuel the lineage tension, albeit sometimes unintentionally, as a matter of marketing or having to try and present their approach as being better.

[Phil Redmond]

Kostya Tszyu? Or someone else?
He's the guy in the grey shirt and shorts in the background here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HgCBVQn2DY

[Whiplash]

In-fighting aside, of the schools here in New Zealand only one of them has competitive fighting experience and students that performed well in inter-discipline sanshau tournaments (that I know of, happy to be corrected! :) )

Sifu Bruce Cheng (pictured with some of his sport fighting trophies here, he's on the left - http://www.chengwingchun.co.nz/wing-chun-en/pop-up_norm.asp?img=photos_nostalgia/nostalgia12.jpg&hd=Nostalgia)

Some of his students with theirs - http://www.chengwingchun.co.nz/wing-chun-en/news/we-won-2005-sanshou.asp

[Phil Redmond]

In-fighting aside, of the schools here in New Zealand only one of them has competitive fighting experience and students that performed well in inter-discipline sanshau tournaments (that I know of, happy to be corrected! :) )

Sifu Bruce Cheng (pictured with some of his sport fighting trophies here, he's on the left - http://www.chengwingchun.co.nz/wing-chun-en/pop-up_norm.asp?img=photos_nostalgia/nostalgia12.jpg&hd=Nostalgia)

Some of his students with theirs - http://www.chengwingchun.co.nz/wing-chun-en/news/we-won-2005-sanshou.asp
Good stuff. I give props to any Wing Chun school that competes. Hopefully if more schools compete our not being able to fight image will go away. ;) But with so many WC people into theory and static drills that may never happen. :o