An object lesson . . .

[t_niehoff]

Two Judoka went to try a Kendo class and sparred with the kendo guys, here's how it went...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEsMuvBwdDk

the judoka are the guys not wearing the hakama (traditional kendo pants, like aikido people wear).

What happened? Why?

How could guys that don't ever train with swords (they never did the forms, never did the drills, have no experience 'sparring") simply pick them up and be able to do what they did to those guys who did all these things?

How does this apply to all martial arts training?

[chusauli]

Athleticism, timing, courage, and willingness to try something different.

A sword in anyone's hand is already very powerful! Also the bogu and teacher present so they could go all out was indicative of safety.

[donbdc]

One thing for sure it looks like a lot of fun!

[hunt1]

They trained a certain way under a certain set of rules with a certain set of expectations. They did not adapt to people that did not follow the set of rules, methods etc that they were used to.

Everyone can be good in their own circle but the real training comes when you move out into the big world.

[sihing]

They trained a certain way under a certain set of rules with a certain set of expectations. They did not adapt to people that did not follow the set of rules, methods etc that they were used to.

Everyone can be good in their own circle but the real training comes when you move out into the big world.

Basically they were trying to express their training, their kendo. That is the problem, they are "TRYING", when you do that on purpose, TRYING to look like the drills they perform, like the teacher that is teaching them, the natural flow of movement stops when you are doing it for real. It's like TRYING to walk across the room, do you try to walk or do you just walk, without thought or concern of how you are walking. The problem with Traditional arts, is that sometimes the TRADITION gets in the way. Traditional methods of training is fine when you are learning something new, or different from your natural way. But when you are applying something, like kendo, you have to forget the training (learning), forget about the way you should look, and just act, with the idea that the training has somehow made your natural movement more effective in relation to what you are doing. I agree with Terence, that there has to be a distinct difference between the learning of something, and the application. If your still in learning mode while applying, you have missed the point.

James

[Sardinkahnikov]

Heh, poor Kendo guys. You could see that he was somewhat skilled (since he did score lots of "men" hits) but he wasn't used to getting actually pounded by a shinai.
Which is fine, imo; Kendo is the japanese equivalent of olympic fencing, that is, a sport. It's not about hurting your oponent, but rather it's about scoring clean points, with little or no actual attention to the swordsmanship aspect (i.e. cutting with a edged weapon).

The judoka basically assumed that the shinai was used like a club and just slugged away at the kendoka, which is only natural since he wasn't used to the Kendo ruleset.

[LSWCTN1]

props to the kendo guys for even allowing it - many MA schools advertise a open door policy (as it very rarely happens), but few often allow their students to get involved in it

[punchdrunk]

very nice clip, good lesson in there.

[Edmund]

Seems to demonstrate that you guys don't know the rules of kendo.

You only score on the top of the head or under the chin and stuff, not smacking people on the back of their shoulders. Has to be with the top part of the shinai. Clubbing the guy doesn't count. The judoka weren't doing well at all.

[CFT]

Seems to demonstrate that you guys don't know the rules of kendo.

You only score on the top of the head or under the chin and stuff, not smacking people on the back of their shoulders. Has to be with the top part of the shinai. Clubbing the guy doesn't count. The judoka weren't doing well at all.That's the point. The kendo guys are still sticking to the etiquette when it is clear the judo guys have absolutely no regard for it. In "real life" they would be cut (shoulders, back, etc).

[Edmund]

That's the point. The kendo guys are still sticking to the etiquette when it is clear the judo guys have absolutely no regard for it. In "real life" they would be cut (shoulders, back, etc).

No they didn't land first. It's quicker than you think. They swung first plenty of times. They were blocked and counter struck so many freaking times. They just didn't realise it and kept whacking away after the fact.... Too late by then.

[anerlich]

That's the point. The kendo guys are still sticking to the etiquette when it is clear the judo guys have absolutely no regard for it.

OK, but this is the sportfighting with rules that the self appointed forum guardians like the OP say is the be all and end all. By your logic, BJJ and Judo are jokes because the other guy can beat the crap out of them, and MT is a joke because a wrestler can take them down.

Or anyone can pull out a gun and shoot them all.

You could argue whether kendo rules have anything to do with a real weapons fight, that might be more to the point.

[Pacman]

we dont know the skill level of the kendo guy..as well as the judoka.

natural reflexes and general athleticism comes into play.

this doesnt prove or even suggest that drills/forms are useless. it could only suggest that athleticism is an important factor in combat (no one disagrees with this)

who is to say that the same judoka practicing drills/forms would not be even better than he was in the video. that is the only logical way to determine what niehoff is trying to prove

also the kendo guy was following the rules. the judoka was not..he probably did not know them

you can't say the judoka did better. its like playing soccer with one team using their hands and running the ball through the goal like a touchdown.

the judoka was just going nuts wacking as much as he could. not much skill involved.

is this evidence that charging at someone without skill is the ultimate form of attack?

yeah he did score hits...he basically did the equivalent of charging at someone iwth a chain punch. against an unskilled opponent you will probably win some bouts--i have seen those on youtube already.

[Edmund]

You could argue whether kendo rules have anything to do with a real weapons fight, that might be more to the point.

From my limited understanding, it's supposed to imitate an armoured weapons fight. The scoring blow is a clean uninterrupted strike with foot stomp and yell using the top part of the shinai. This is a sword cut that would go through a helmet or wrist armour.

For the Terences:
Since the judoka did not time their blows with their footstep very often, it would probably not be deemed good enough for judges. The fact that they charged in or whacked a lot with arm power doesn't really matter as scores are awarded on the first good strike. It's not a game of count the whacks.

Judoka understand the concept of ippon in comps. Dragging your opponent down by hanging on for dear life after being thrown doesn't matter. Same with kendo strikes. After you've been struck it doesn't matter if you whack back 10 times. It's just annoying the hell out of your opponent.

I actually think the judokas understood the kendo rules a bit because at about 1:25 he raises his shinai in the air when he actually did score once!

[Mr Punch]

That was ****ing stupid.

It proves one thing:

you go into an essentially non-combat sport with a total disregard for the rules and playing pretty much for full contact and you'll win.

WTF else is there to learn from it?

One of the worst most pointless pieces of **** videos I've ever seen.

There's no object lesson involved.

[t_niehoff]

That was ****ing stupid.

It proves one thing:

you go into an essentially non-combat sport with a total disregard for the rules and playing pretty much for full contact and you'll win.

WTF else is there to learn from it?

One of the worst most pointless pieces of **** videos I've ever seen.

There's no object lesson involved.

Excellent post, and it underscores the real point I was trying to make with this thread: that we can't recognize what is outside of our own personal experience. The people who have through experience already learned the object lesson that video presents easily recognize it. The people who have not learned that object lesson don't recognize it. For them, the video truly is pointless. And, from their perspective, that's true -- it's pointless for THEM because they can't recognize what is beyond their experience.

Before they can see the object lesson in that video they need to personally experience (learn) that object lesson themselves. Only then can they see and appreciate the object lesson. Until then, they are blind to it.

Can you guys who recognize the object lesson explain it to or convince the people who don't see it? No. It won't do any good. Nothing will except getting them to personally experience it themselves.

[Pacman]

so that means we shouldn't train for competitions with rules like they do in Boxing, wrestling, MT, and BJJ?

[t_niehoff]

so that means we shouldn't train for competitions with rules like they do in Boxing, wrestling, MT, and BJJ?

No, it means you don't see the "object lesson" since you've never learned the object lesson of that video. People who box, wrestle, fight MT or BJJ, will know the object lesson. A great many people in TMAs will not.

[Pacman]

that we can't recognize what is outside of our own personal experience

you should really look at that statement again and self reflect.

you had a bad experience with a poor CMA teacher. sounds like a really really really bad one. maybe two. you can't see stuff on youtube of TMA that you like.

this doesn't mean that you can conclude what CMA training is and CMA effectiveness.

[Edmund]

No, it means you don't see the "object lesson" since you've never learned the object lesson of that video. People who box, wrestle, fight MT or BJJ, will know the object lesson. A great many people in TMAs will not.

Terence,

You wanted to ridicule an art that you weren't familiar with.
Now you claim there's a lesson that only people who've already learnt the lesson can see i.e. "Only previously enlightened people like me can see how enlightening this video is."

In actual fact, because YOU didn't know the reasoning behind the rules of kendo you were the unenlightened one. And your biased brain thinks it's being objective!

The judo guys looked like they did well to you because they ignored the fact they were "cut" and had LOST ALREADY. The shinai imitates a sword not a light saber, the bogu imitates full armour. It takes skill to swing the sword so that it cuts through full armour. Without that, they don't win. Stick to the rules when you go do another art. Maybe you'll learn something rather than dream about how street-awesome you are against a shinai.

I've done MT. You sound like you wish you had. No doubt you'd be trying to headbutt people the whole time to validate yourself.

[Mr Punch]

Excellent post, and it underscores the real point I was trying to make with this thread: that we can't recognize what is outside of our own personal experience. ...Have a gold star.


For them, the video truly is pointless. And, from their perspective, that's true -- it's pointless for THEM because they can't recognize what is beyond their experience. Understanding fail? Mine or yours...? What there is beyond my experience? I've done kendo competitions under kendo rules. Incidentally, while kendo furnishes you with excellent timing for fighting, good experience in working angles, and countering, and maintaining body structure under pressure, it takes approximately three seconds of practice to work out that since what they're delivering is a whippy little touch it's basically points sparring with no point in continuing for any transferability to real fighting skills. The reason that video angered me was because someone should have pointed out to them that the way those judo guys were using those shinai would be enough to concuss someone and is not the way they're used in the gentle sport of kendo. I came from an aiki-sword background (of course unrealsitic and innapplicable for a number of different reasons) which teaches sword a la kenjutsu - cuttin through - so when I started kendo I was admonished (and beaten up for as an example) for using my shinai like a weapon: it isn't.

I've done lightly protected light contact free sparring with wooden weapons which have still resulted in dislocated/sprained digits and mild concussion. I've done FC MMA sparring where the rules were agreed but the teacher wasn't watching everyone at the same time and some people will try and take your head off cos they haven't got the experience to recognise mutual agreed contact levels or just because over here they train full-on. I've done chi sao of varying degrees of contact (none of it comparable to sparring). I've been in supposedly light play around sparring sessions of the kind of pub challenge when somebody finds out you learn an MA and comes out with 'What would you do if...' which always ends in escalation. Oh, and I've been in situations that have flared up from nothing, come from nowhere, that have had any result from my running away, to them running away, to my having been kicked unconscious.

So, tell me T, what experience am I lacking to see your object lesson?

Real life experience? I know what it feels like to be bullied, and also to have rules (be they agreed competition rules or generally accepted societal rules) thrown into my face.

Again, all I can see there, is people who don't know or care for rules of essentially a non-violent point-sparring sport can kick the **** out of somebody in the sport. What next? Boxer vs table tennis player? Muay thai vs wing chun? ... Oh wait, I get it! :D

Except... I said there was no object lesson, so are you saying it puts me in this category?

No, it means you don't see the "object lesson" since you've never learned the object lesson of that video. People who box, wrestle, fight MT or BJJ, will know the object lesson. A great many people in TMAs will not.

So, I'm going to have to end with a "**** you" now, because I'm confused but I do know this is the internet!

[punchdrunk]

compare the Kendo to Chi sao or some other Wing Chun specific drills, and I think you'll get what T N is after. Ever done or seen someone else chi sao with someone from another style? The "points" you score are often unobserved by outsiders, and the "fouls" they make are equally ignored. Does that make chi sao or kendo or similarily bound drills useless? IMO no, but you must realise the limitations of the drill. Chi sao is not a fight, neither was that Kendo... if you wanna prove fighting skill fight for real. And if you make the mistake of thinking chi sao is like a fight... get ready to lose a real one.

[Knifefighter]

No, it means you don't see the "object lesson" since you've never learned the object lesson of that video. People who box, wrestle, fight MT or BJJ, will know the object lesson. A great many people in TMAs will not.

I'm missing the lesson here also. Other than the fact that the Judo guys had probably played some kendo somewhere in their past.

[Liddel]

No, it means you don't see the "object lesson" since you've never learned the object lesson of that video. People who box, wrestle, fight MT or BJJ, will know the object lesson. A great many people in TMAs will not.


I'm missing the lesson here also. Other than the fact that the Judo guys had probably played some kendo somewhere in their past.

Get your BJJ BB opinions out of here and let him make his gross generalisations. :)

DREW

[t_niehoff]

I'm missing the lesson here also. Other than the fact that the Judo guys had probably played some kendo somewhere in their past.

I think it has to do with "what we are used to."

To explain -- in my mind what is interesting is how poorly the trained kendo guys did. I would expect that they should be able to easily handle poorly trained, unskilled guys with shinai. But they had all sorts of trouble. And that isn't because the judo guys might have played some kendo but because the kendo guys were facing an intensity (something judo instills) that they were not used to. And what happens when we face an intensity we are not used to is that our technique, our game, etc. crumbles. In a sense, skill is intensity-dependent.

IMO the lesson is we can only get good at doing what we are used to doing, what is famailiar. And what I mean by that is both situationally (are you used to getting out of headlocks? or dealing with genuinely resisiting opponents?) and in terms of violent intensity (are you used to dealing with someone going all out?).

[Knifefighter]

I think it has to do with "what we are used to."

To explain -- in my mind what is interesting is how poorly the trained kendo guys did. I would expect that they should be able to easily handle poorly trained, unskilled guys with shinai. But they had all sorts of trouble. And that isn't because the judo guys might have played some kendo but because the kendo guys were facing an intensity (something judo instills) that they were not used to. And what happens when we face an intensity we are not used to is that our technique, our game, etc. crumbles. In a sense, skill is intensity-dependent.

IMO the lesson is we can only get good at doing what we are used to doing, what is famailiar. And what I mean by that is both situationally (are you used to getting out of headlocks? or dealing with genuinely resisiting opponents?) and in terms of violent intensity (are you used to dealing with someone going all out?).

You are 100% right. Most people have never fought with weapons at full intensity and don't understand how important the intensity level is with weapons.

[Mr Punch]

I think it has to do with "what we are used to."

To explain -- in my mind what is interesting is how poorly the trained kendo guys did. I would expect that they should be able to easily handle poorly trained, unskilled guys with shinai. But they had all sorts of trouble. And that isn't because the judo guys might have played some kendo but because the kendo guys were facing an intensity (something judo instills) that they were not used to. And what happens when we face an intensity we are not used to is that our technique, our game, etc. crumbles. In a sense, skill is intensity-dependent.

IMO the lesson is we can only get good at doing what we are used to doing, what is famailiar. And what I mean by that is both situationally (are you used to getting out of headlocks? or dealing with genuinely resisiting opponents?) and in terms of violent intensity (are you used to dealing with someone going all out?).So I was right - you're stating the blindingly obvious, without actually stating the most important thing: it's not 'intensity', it's pain. It's really ****ing painful getting clubbed with a shinai: it can easily cause concussion. So yeah, sure they're not used to it, because in kendo you're taught NOT to hit that way. Again, it's down to a boxer vs a table tennis player.

[Wayfaring]

I think it has to do with "what we are used to."

To explain -- in my mind what is interesting is how poorly the trained kendo guys did. I would expect that they should be able to easily handle poorly trained, unskilled guys with shinai. But they had all sorts of trouble. And that isn't because the judo guys might have played some kendo but because the kendo guys were facing an intensity (something judo instills) that they were not used to. And what happens when we face an intensity we are not used to is that our technique, our game, etc. crumbles. In a sense, skill is intensity-dependent.

IMO the lesson is we can only get good at doing what we are used to doing, what is famailiar. And what I mean by that is both situationally (are you used to getting out of headlocks? or dealing with genuinely resisiting opponents?) and in terms of violent intensity (are you used to dealing with someone going all out?).

So the object lesson is that if you pad up a bunch of guys and take away the cutting edge consequences from their training, then judo guys can whack the cr@p out of them until they get close enough to throw them?

um, okay....

You know they rent out these inflatable sumo suits too that are really fun at corporate parties. You can really go after someone with live intensity.

So the object lesson there is that fatter people are more dangerous in a fight unless they gas out first. :D

[Knifefighter]

So the object lesson is that if you pad up a bunch of guys and take away the cutting edge consequences from their training, then judo guys can whack the cr@p out of them until they get close enough to throw them?
Put on armor and, even with cutting edged weapons, much of the cutting edged consequences are removed.

[t_niehoff]

This is what I talked about -- if YOU don't personally experience it, then you can't get it.

The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren't used to or if you put them in a situation they aren't used to), then they crumble.

Many TMAists don't believe -- and don't want to believe -- this to be the case.

[Wayfaring]

Put on armor and, even with cutting edged weapons, much of the cutting edged consequences are removed.

Oh, great. Now I need to go and hang out with all the nerds from the Renaissance festival to learn an object lesson.

[Wayfaring]

The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren't used to or if you put them in a situation they aren't used to), then they crumble.


Your point about needing to train at a fight level of intensity to be able to be effective is a valid one, both with weapons and without. And yes, it's apparant that the kendo students had not previously trained much at all with a fight level of intensity.

[goju]

This is what I talked about -- if YOU don't personally experience it, then you can't get it.

The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren't used to or if you put them in a situation they aren't used to), then they crumble.

Many TMAists don't believe -- and don't want to believe -- this to be the case.
according to who theres millions of us out there sitting on your puter all day how in the hell could you have met them?

[Mr Punch]

This thread certainly wins the prize for stating the bleeding obvious then.

I'm still waiting for that boxer vs table-tennis player link. :rolleyes:

[Liddel]

This is what I talked about -- if YOU don't personally experience it, then you can't get it.

The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren't used to or if you put them in a situation they aren't used to), then they crumble.

Many TMAists don't believe -- and don't want to believe -- this to be the case.

I think your pushing this further than need be, there are more factors at work and while you may have a point at face value, its not as pertinent as you think IMO.

One main factor is intent - the intent of the judoka is on hitting the oppoenent as many times as possible, where as the intent of the Kendo peoeple is landing a killing blow and in the context of training to then stop !

I see te Kendo guys landing the first blow several times.

They realise the reality that if you had a real sword the first one to land is generally the winner and the opponent having been cut wont be able to act as the judokas are in this isolated setting.

Ive experienced this when training Chi do - even with a big smack of a wooden Do on the lead arm of a training partner they still then try to use it for thier own attack when the reality of its further use after being cut is fairly low percentage.

Second this is there first attempt knowing now how the judokas behave, id say the learning curve would be steep for the Kendo people given the chance to rinse and repeat. Perhaps they held to etiquette etc etc.

Ive been to other VT schools and had issue with the depth and intensity people used in Chi Sau drills, because im an outsider they go harder and make it more about a light to medium spar than a drill platform for feeling and experiencing technique/s etc ive asked people do you want to Chi Sau or spar ? because Chi Sau isnt sparring and sparring isnt Chi Sau - state the ruleset and ill be happy to be involved....

SO i see this as one of those situations - we dont know the mindset of the people involved nor do we know thier real skill level.

Take off the gear and lets see them go at it again - ill bet a 50
1) the judokas are not as braisen without protection.
2) the Kendo people are not as conservitive and are more aggresive.

Rulesets are huge contributors to the outcome.

As far as them getting taken down, well last time i checked Kendo wasnt a ground style so... well done they beat scrubs - which you Terrence constantly berate TMA's for !

Next time your on the tennis court fire a volley back at your opponent and before they have a chance to hit the ball back throw your raquet a them and yell "i win".

See my point :p

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

You should see how much kendo changes when you go from Shinai to Bokken...
As for the clip, Most of the kendo guys I know don't really understand the difference between what they do and full contact stick fighting or even real sword work, but they are quick to grasp it when they are exposed to it.
Most people do just "whack away" with the shinai when they first pick one up, of course they wouldn't ever win even a beginners match in a tournament.
Many would do well to remember that scene from the 7 samurai, the duel scene near the beginning, where it is made clear the importance of "ma ai".

[Knifefighter]

Take off the gear and lets see them go at it again - ill bet a 50
1) the judokas are not as braisen without protection.
2) the Kendo people are not as conservitive and are more aggresive.

I'll take you up on that 50. Having fought a number of times with no gear, I can tell you that grappling happens a lot quicker and a lot more often when you go with no gear.

The judo guys would have been even more dominant because they would have quickly moved to grappling/ground range where the kendo guys would have been out of their element.

[Pacman]

The judo guys would have been even more dominant because they would have quickly moved to grappling/ground range where the kendo guys would have been out of their element.

you're missing the point that everyone has tried to make to you. you might as well give the judo guys a gun and say "the judo guys would have shot and killed the kendo guys easily"

[Liddel]

I'll take you up on that 50. Having fought a number of times with no gear, I can tell you that grappling happens a lot quicker and a lot more often when you go with no gear.

I wouldnt dare to disagree Dale given your experience in that environment vs mine but i was addressing the issues seperately.



The judo guys would have been even more dominant because they would have quickly moved to grappling/ground range where the kendo guys would have been out of their element.

Your blending my points here....

I wouldnt dare to disagree Dale given your experience in that environment vs mine but i was addressing the issues seperately.

Id put a 50 up for another go at a sword 'Duel' where the first blow is the winner :D no grappling !

Then i made the point thats constantly put out on this forum that beating people with less than average skills in any given fight area - standup - clinch - ground - is no big deal, which clearly applies to the situation where the Judokas took them down as the kendo stylists are not familair with ground techs so...fairly obvious outcome there. :o

I did say IMO T has a point at face value, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that out, but its just not all that poignant :p

Are you saying that if i went on into a judo school asked to roll and then in the mix started throwing bombs that it wouldnt stuff at least one of the students game ?

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

IF we are to take the shinai as to what they are SUPPOSE to be, ie: live blades, then whatever the Judoka did AFTER they received the cut from the Kendoka is irrelevant because it "never happend", you certainly cant counter a strike the chopped off your wrist by striking back with that same arm.
Granted that the way kendoka hit with shinais have ZERO to do with how to use a live sword, nevertheless the point is that they represent a "live blade".
I know that when I was learning the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu system of Kenjutsu we did some grappling VS the live blade and it was pretty clear how dangerous that was IF the guy with the sword knew how to counter the grappling.
Now we can go deeper and see how well a sword cuts VS armour and how that effects grappling and so forth, but that is not really relevant to the video.

Fact is the judoka did well for guys "playing with sticks" with very little prior experience.