Timeframes: Striking vs. grappling

[CFT]

Given the number of cross-training threads recently, I just thought of something that the cross-trainers might care to comment on.

I've always questioned the chi sau training when it came to application. I could never see it actually working (in the "ideal" way I guess) - sensitivity, trapping, etc. - when in the hubbub of an exchange with someone. My main gripe is the speed at which a striking exchange takes place coupled to the mobility that a "standing" person has.

Which brings me to my point - does the timeframe of an exchange get longer (i.e. you get more time to react/act) as you move to clinch, grappling, ground, etc?

Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?

[Knifefighter]

Which brings me to my point - does the timeframe of an exchange get longer (i.e. you get more time to react/act) as you move to clinch, grappling, ground, etc?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on a lot of factors.


Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?
People generally move to grappling for one of two reasons:
- They don't know how to strike and/or are getting beaten in the striking exchange and move to grappling in hopes of stopping that.
- Grappling is their preferred method of fighting and/or a tactical opportunity to grapple comes along.

[Mr Punch]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on a lot of factors.Namely what kind of clinch and how aggressive you both are.


People generally move to grappling for one of two reasons:
- They don't know how to strike and/or are getting beaten in the striking exchange and move to grappling in hopes of stopping that.
- Grappling is their preferred method of fighting and/or a tactical opportunity to grapple comes along.At least in the UK where there are no school wrestling programmes, the first is a WAY higher percentage for average scrubs on the street.

[punchdrunk]

Moving from striking to grappling to ground is very natural, regardless of training. Even children often start punching eachother, grab eachother, go to the ground and usually the bully wins in a scrap.

[Pacman]

Given the number of cross-training threads recently, I just thought of something that the cross-trainers might care to comment on.

I've always questioned the chi sau training when it came to application. I could never see it actually working (in the "ideal" way I guess) - sensitivity, trapping, etc. - when in the hubbub of an exchange with someone. My main gripe is the speed at which a striking exchange takes place coupled to the mobility that a "standing" person has.

Which brings me to my point - does the timeframe of an exchange get longer (i.e. you get more time to react/act) as you move to clinch, grappling, ground, etc?

Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?

the time you have to react gets shorter as you get closer.

the whole point of chi sau and 'sensitivity' is to take the eyes out of the equation because you do not have time to assess with the eyes, process that information, decide what to do, etc.

it is believed, that it is much faster to simply react by reflex to what you feel--not emotionally of course but by physical touch. that is the goal.

[grasshopper 2.0]

I've always questioned the chi sau training when it came to application. I could never see it actually working (in the "ideal" way I guess) - sensitivity, trapping, etc. - when in the hubbub of an exchange with someone. My main gripe is the speed at which a striking exchange takes place coupled to the mobility that a "standing" person has.


i wonder what your picture or definition of ideal is? imo, chi-sao simply allows you to hit the target. There is no trapping really (in the sense of those typical pictures of crossing the opponents arms); and the sensitivity kicks in as soon as contact of your body to your opponent's - enough to tell you that you can hit or that you can't.

for example, the jab can be a pretty useful weapon - think of what someone who trains it can do with it. now imagine what he can do with it if he's got the sensitivity training.

The end game is the same, but the foundation to get there is inherently different.

[AdrianK]

Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?

Stopping an opponent with your fists can be a costly affair for them. If you don't give them a severe enough concussion to knock them out, you risk breaking any number of bones in their face, their jaw, sternum, etc.

Grappling is a great method to stop someone without severely injuring them.

Remember the society we live in. We're not fighting off people who genuinely want to murder us and our family, most of the time we fight. Usually its people who **** us off or we **** them off. Is it worth severely injuring them? What about the legal consequences? The medical bills and financial hardship they could incur?

Yeah, chances are they probably should've thought of that before they got into a fight with you. But you should understand where your opponent is coming from, as well. We're all inconsiderate *******s at one time or another, the only difference is those inconsiderate *******s we mess up, probably don't have the training we do. And as such, we have a responsibility to it as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unless you ( or your opponent) can incapacitate with minimal strikes, any fight will follow the "typical" pattern of:
Strike - Clinch- throw/trip/fall- ground fighting.

Grappling is far more natural to most people and probably more effective for most people too.
Striking in a way that makes strikes the most effective tends to be rather "unnatural", most people just swing away naturally, whereas grappling, for the most part, is something more natural and easy to pick up for the majority of people.
Also, striking is a tad more "fast paced" than grappling and very few people like getting hit.

[k gledhill]

guy always tried or grabbed my wrists when fighting for control

guys grapple for the control factor


chi-sao isnt for developing grappling ideas ;)...its further developing the little idea from SLT

I dont see grappling in SLT.


make a strike line with your wrists ...strike either side along the line wrists xing the line , elbow touching before striking out......the rest is to develop the ideas ability to function at any angle of the fight STRIKING.

Bil Gee teaches methods to regain grabbed/grappled writs and arms, that stopped your flowing attack...

MAny times I have had my wrists grabbed in fights...guys will come forwards with a lead 'grabbing' hand...for the big right following ...or not as the case may be :D


I did wrestling in school in USA, as well as judo...always came in handy when I sparred and went down....in fighting I always avoid the ground or grappling due to the uneven
numbers 3 v me or even 2 v me....one guy can always be kicking you in the head=dead, or stomping on your neck. As I was also growing up and going to school in the UK I noticed the preference for group/gang fighting to include surrounding a guy who was simply 'run down' by another gang and kicked mercilessly...so even running isnt a guarantee...knowing how to grapple means little when this happens...knowing to regain your feet works well....

its instinctive to grab and control using wrists or hands to chase, VT teaches us to use the arms angles [forearms] to be a second set of hands 'just' behind the fists of the same arm
alignment and training makes it work...not to stick but to strike while 'sliding' in and out along lines...

no grappling required.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Chi Sao is not a fighting stratagy. Never was. It is a simple drill where 2 people can work together in training their pary and strike techniques through routine redundance. It can be helpful training when you are close in and sort of grappling. Most people have to have room to swing at you, but a WC fighter can hit you while rubbing bellies with you. If he can control your arms while striking you so much the better for him. Today people think MMA ring when they talk fighting. Going to ground is an attempt to use wrestling or jujitsu to submit a person. Submission is only in sport fighting. You would submit someone in a parking lot fight and once on his feet he would start fighting all over again. Then again maybe someone else will get involved and kick at your head while you roll with his friend. The ground is the very last place you want to be in a serious street fight. More than titles and bragging rights are involved there. I understand that someone might attempt to take you down, and it is so that he can get help from friends while you are down there probably. In this case you need to make every attempt to prevent that happening. At all costs. If he is alone he would probably be as loath to being taken down as you would be.
There is a world of difference between a fight in a back parking lot and a fight in a ring under controlled conditions, where a referee can pull him off you when he chokes you blue.

[AdrianK]

What Chi Sao is or isn't... is a dead-end discussion.

It is what you allow it to enhance. It's such a free-flowing exercise it can be used in an infinite number of applications.

[Ultimatewingchun]

FROM DALE FRANKS/KNIFEFIGHTER:

"People generally move to grappling for one of two reasons:

- They don't know how to strike and/or are getting beaten in the striking exchange and move to grappling in hopes of stopping that.

- Grappling is their preferred method of fighting and/or a tactical opportunity to grapple comes along.”
.................................................. .........


FROM PAUL/SANJURO RONIN

“Unless you (or your opponent) can incapacitate with minimal strikes, any fight will follow the 'typical' pattern of:

Strike - Clinch- throw/trip/fall- ground fighting.”
.................................................. ..........


***THESE TWO POSTS ARE RIGHT ON THE MARK.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Picking up on my last post - the wing chun "short range power" and the wing chun uses "quick, multiple blast punches" ideas, if you will, need to be re-examined. In a real encounter, or a match of some sort wherein full (or close to full) power punches and strikes are being used - and clinch and ground are also part of the mix, and the adrenalin is going...

just how important is it to learn grappling/wrestling? As a wing chun fighter?

Because as Paul said, unless you can incapacitate with minimal strikes, the odds are that this fight/match is probably going to some sort of clinch/ground.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you "live" in a phone booth like WC fighters are trained to do, clinch grappling, at the very least, is a must to know.
Lets be honest here, if you like to be on the inside where an opponent can grab you with BOTH hands, the chances of grappling are close to 100% and the chances of going to the ground almost as much.

[k gledhill]

What Chi Sao is or isn't... is a dead-end discussion.

It is what you allow it to enhance. It's such a free-flowing exercise it can be used in an infinite number of applications.

there lies a quagmire of confusing ideas...

:D

[Wayfaring]

If you "live" in a phone booth like WC fighters are trained to do, clinch grappling, at the very least, is a must to know.
Lets be honest here, if you like to be on the inside where an opponent can grab you with BOTH hands, the chances of grappling are close to 100% and the chances of going to the ground almost as much.

yes, absolutely.

[Edmund]

My main gripe is the speed at which a striking exchange takes place coupled to the mobility that a "standing" person has.

Which brings me to my point - does the timeframe of an exchange get longer (i.e. you get more time to react/act) as you move to clinch, grappling, ground, etc?


Yes with an important proviso: You have to know what to do in those positions. Skilled or experienced people understand the principles of position and posture so keep themselves where they have more time to react and act.

Actually the same applies to a striking exchange even though it may seem faster and more mobile. The knowledgeable person doesn't expose themselves to be struck easily. Then they have the time to react and act.

It's an important idea in any form of fighting and there are many ways to skin the cat. Whatever the style, it's the difference between just swinging at each other and actually using your brains.

[Yoshiyahu]

In street fighting. Lets say we are somewhere alone. No friends to back this guy up. An he is extremly fast with his punches or kicks. I may use ground fighting to trap him. What I mean is if I am lot stronger phyiscally I would try get him the ground so I could break his arm or leg (Not submit him). If I gain the dominant posistion I will attempt to trap or hold him down by crossing on of his hands over his throat while I punch him with my free hand.

But a fight is unpredictable Just because someone trains ground tactics doesn't always mean they will work the way they do in class. Sparring is totally different than sparring. An when sparring or Sprawling someone from the same style doesn't always prepare you for the unexpected on the street!

A unskilled street fighter may be alot stronger or too big to take to ground. So you may want to stay on your feet your self.



Chi Sao is not a fighting stratagy. Never was. It is a simple drill where 2 people can work together in training their pary and strike techniques through routine redundance. It can be helpful training when you are close in and sort of grappling. Most people have to have room to swing at you, but a WC fighter can hit you while rubbing bellies with you. If he can control your arms while striking you so much the better for him. Today people think MMA ring when they talk fighting. Going to ground is an attempt to use wrestling or jujitsu to submit a person. Submission is only in sport fighting. You would submit someone in a parking lot fight and once on his feet he would start fighting all over again. Then again maybe someone else will get involved and kick at your head while you roll with his friend. The ground is the very last place you want to be in a serious street fight. More than titles and bragging rights are involved there. I understand that someone might attempt to take you down, and it is so that he can get help from friends while you are down there probably. In this case you need to make every attempt to prevent that happening. At all costs. If he is alone he would probably be as loath to being taken down as you would be.
There is a world of difference between a fight in a back parking lot and a fight in a ring under controlled conditions, where a referee can pull him off you when he chokes you blue.

[Lee Chiang Po]

This is not written in stone, but in most cases if someone is looking to fight it is because he has the notion that he can whip you. Either he is larger than you or he feels he has some fighting skill that you don't have. Seldom does one simply approach and start some crap with you. They usually eye you and size you up and sometimes even say little things to see what kind of response they get out of you. They don't usually want to start something with someone that they think might give them a good fight. They look for victim types. Trapping hands and arms would classify as grappling in my opinion, and it would give you some advantage to train these moves and techniques. Nothing works all the time, but things you practice tend to work more often. It can only give you some advantage if it does work.
Now, this might be contrary to what is popularly believed, but you do not have to go to the ground to fight a grappling fight. When trapping a hand or arm you can apply your basic wrist and arm locks and bars to take a man down while standing flat on both feet. In fact, it seems to be a great deal easier to do while standing.
Ring fighting consists of pounding and kicking, then grabbing a leg and taking a man down and straddle him. Only certain large joints can be attacked. Rules to fight by you know. In a street fight you have well over a hundred wrist locks and arm bar techniques to work with. All these fighting techniques are designed that you can use them against a larger and stronger person.

[grasshopper 2.0]

it's a no-brainer, if i/you train WCK, you want to do the darnest to stay on your feet. The last thing you want to think about is to go to the ground/grapple. No matter your opponent's size (big, skinny, tall, short, fast, slow) - your bread and butter (given that you're following this thread) is your WCK...so make sure that's at 100%.

if it goes to the ground or even grappling....we're pretty much screwed. and let's hope our opponent isn't good at it either.

others may elect to learn ground fighting, wrestling etc. that's fine too. All a matter of how you want to spread your chips...

[Frost]

This is not written in stone, but in most cases if someone is looking to fight it is because he has the notion that he can whip you. Either he is larger than you or he feels he has some fighting skill that you don't have. Seldom does one simply approach and start some crap with you. They usually eye you and size you up and sometimes even say little things to see what kind of response they get out of you. They don't usually want to start something with someone that they think might give them a good fight. They look for victim types. Trapping hands and arms would classify as grappling in my opinion, and it would give you some advantage to train these moves and techniques. Nothing works all the time, but things you practice tend to work more often. It can only give you some advantage if it does work.
Now, this might be contrary to what is popularly believed, but you do not have to go to the ground to fight a grappling fight. When trapping a hand or arm you can apply your basic wrist and arm locks and bars to take a man down while standing flat on both feet. In fact, it seems to be a great deal easier to do while standing.
Ring fighting consists of pounding and kicking, then grabbing a leg and taking a man down and straddle him. Only certain large joints can be attacked. Rules to fight by you know. In a street fight you have well over a hundred wrist locks and arm bar techniques to work with. All these fighting techniques are designed that you can use them against a larger and stronger person.


Today people think MMA ring when they talk fighting. Going to ground is an attempt to use wrestling or jujitsu to submit a person. .


Grappling does not mean ground fighting, and ground fighting does not mean looking for the tap. Grappling skills are what allow you to keep the fight standing and allow you to punish an opponent in close range without having to go to the ground. Neck clinch to snap down to knees to the head or guiltone; an underhook with head control allows you to knee the opponent and if needed throw him on his head. Ground fighting can mean going to knee on stomach and dropping blows until your opponent is unconscious, and if i do get an arm i am not looking for a tap, i am looking for a break

To say ring fighting only consists of pounding and kicking then grabbing a leg and taking a guy down to straddle him is unbelievably silly, you surely can’t actually believe this?

Its not the rules that keep people from using wirst locks and standing arm locks, they are legal in alot of MMA organisation, you don’t see them because they don’t work very well. Doing a standing arm bar on a compliant partner is one thing, doing it on someone trying to take your head off and who is moving around is another thing altogether. Don’t you think that if a move was that easy, and worked against larger and stronger opponents that everyone would be doing them? It would beat the hell out of trying to set up a double leg or fighting to get a body lock

[goju]

LOL... standing joint locks are next to impossible to get on a halfway athletic or skilled opponents. The reason people don't do standing joint locks in MMA is because they don't work 99.9% of the time.
no because they dont train them properly
and for you being a bjj black belt you dont know your own history the gracie jujitsu self defense techniques for when some one grabs your shoulder was actually used in a mma match and in torn the guys arm up so bad he cant fight anymore and its a standing joint lock technique so gos to show what you know

[Yoshiyahu]

Ahh prehaps the wrestlers can learn something from WC Purist after all. There seems to be something that many are not awarre of here?

This is get interested.

The Premise: Standing Joint locks can be applied to a larger opponent easily.

The Fallacy: Standing Joint Locks are nearly to imposisble to apply on a struggling opponent.

Interesting I like to hear you guys hash this one out?

[Merryprankster]

actually yoshiyahu, it's not a very interesting discussion at all.

Standing jointlocks are low percentage moves because there are too many degrees of freedom of movement. It's pretty much that simple.

CAN it work? Yup. Knifefighter, and others, including me, are not denying that. It might even be useful to have one or two well-practiced, in the "bag o tricks." Everybody has a couple of things that they just pull out every now and again, so why not.

But the reason you don't routinely see them - even in events where they are legal, like in BJJ tournaments or MMA fights - is precisely because they are "bag o tricks" type moves, not "Solid staple, bread and butter, "A" game type things."

People are welcome to disagree and that's fine. What they choose to do with their time really doesn't matter much to me.

[chusauli]

Uyeshiba, the founder of Aikido said, "The secret of Aikido lies in Atemi waza (Striking to vital points)".

The basic premise of standing joint locks is striking an opponent senseles first, then doing the armlock. To just do it without apply strikes is useless.

Anyone not believing Aikido is effective should look at Yoshinkan or its predecessor, Daito Ryu Jujutsu.

[goju]

Uyeshiba, the founder of Aikido said, "The secret of Aikido lies in Atemi waza (Striking to vital points)".

The basic premise of standing joint locks is striking an opponent senseles first, then doing the armlock. To just do it without apply strikes is useless.

Anyone not believing Aikido is effective should look at Yoshinkan or its predecessor, Daito Ryu Jujutsu.
he will say thenb why dont you see it in mma
aikidos bread and butter is small joint manipulation which is banned in many mma competions ;)

[monji112000]

he will say thenb why dont you see it in mma
aikidos bread and butter is small joint manipulation which is banned in many mma competions ;)
Akido like wing chun has allot of people who "know" but can't do. Akido has little to no randori. Its not a sport, so you have people becoming black belts and not even getting someone to tap in a LIVE situation. Akido with randori looks like Judo..

This argument is the same one that was discussed about the GRover or whatever its called. If you take the time to try something 1,000 times on a 1,000 people in a live situation you would figure that out.

when you are standing you have little control of the opponent. Some submissions in a set environment may work.. a little more than others. I assume your talking about about Aoki's standing arm bar? He was even surprised it worked.. because its such a low percentage technique. If you really on it as your only plan.. your in trouble.. but if you throw it out there and then do something more realistic.. thats not that bad of a idea. My BJJ teacher does wrist locks, but only as a set-up for more realistic techniques.

[goju]

the best time to use a standing joint lock is when a grab is attempted by your opponent say for example if some tries to clinch you or take you down
plus ive always though the standing techniques in bjj were crap to be honest with you im really flexible and those standingtechniques was taught in bjj didnt even work on me and they didnt work on the other people who were flexible either more than likely thats why dale poo poos on standing joint locks
whereas the chin na in chinese and okinawan arts are more scientific focusing on pressure points and often using a brutal torque of the joint that likely esults in tonr muscle or snapped bone

[goju]

the way i was taught standing joint locks is that you strike them to stun them then apply it or strike them with the lock in order to prevent an attempt at escaping
same thing with are grappling in karate with ar armbar or our crucifix for example we use a strike before the submission is apllied to damage your opponent and prevent him for putting up resistance

[Hendrik]

Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?

IMHO,
The biggest reason is the type of power generation platform is not capable to produce power to support the action at the contact.

thus, it defauts into pure mascular power and those who have more muscular strength and use to the condition via practice win.


I am actually feel sad to see WCK no longer has the power platform to do the job.

[Hendrik]

Grappling relies on power and strength no more than striking does.

True.

IMHO, it is a different type of power even if the intensity level is the same.

Using a wrong type of power even with the same intensity will produce low efficeincy or low effectiveness.


By the time the grapper get close to the range within the shoulder and elbow,

almost most of the striker who without the grappling training was force into dealing with an unfamiliar type of power flow with low effectiveness.

By the time the grapper get contact the striker's body the striker left with only low effectiveness struggling which fall prey to the unknown un familiar situation.


How can one even dream to win in this type of situation? Cant.

Thus, some go learn grapping, and that is good, because that train one to be able to handle the situation.


It is anything wrong with this? Nope, in fact it is perfectly proper. However, is this still WCK? Nope, certainly no longer it.


As an analogy, to race two cars, one needs to know if both enginees could be par : interm of generating x amount of horse power, and rate of acceleration....etc.

If at this level it is a 30 /70 then the racer needs +20 from the skill to just compensate the weakness. and that means even just to par, one needs to have 20+ more skill. To win one will need even more.


So, it is obvious if the power platform is 30/70 in the elbow to body contact range, the skill is 20/80 in the elbow to body contact range... what is the chance to win?

For me, dont do it because it is a guarentee screw up.




Sure, people then come up with different type of tricks move this and that trying to explain away the weakness. however, that 30/70 cant be explain away disregards how one can demo or show it to one's students. because it is a conditional stuffs and the condiftion might not even exist in the real life contact.



Now, if the power generation compare the two is 50/50 to support oneself differently in the particular range, and the skill of the individual is 30/70 then there still a chance of par and even slight change of winning.



So, it is not time frame, IMHO, it is power generation frame. basically what is the accerelation in the evoke of power to support a specific style of technics.

As we all heard, WCK is famous on its Keng Geng or Fast accerelated Power, it goes as far as any part of the body while get into contact can generate those type of power. Now, without those type of power platform. There is no different between BJJ punch, TDK punch and WCK punch; and how can that type of punch or strike become effective in close range?

using a wrong type of motor/gear to drive a mis fit drill head is just looking for damage. even worse if one drop it harder or thinking the same amount of power will do the same job.

It is time to wake up to face reality.

Just some thought.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Uyeshiba, the founder of Aikido said, "The secret of Aikido lies in Atemi waza (Striking to vital points)".

The basic premise of standing joint locks is striking an opponent senseles first, then doing the armlock. To just do it without apply strikes is useless.

Anyone not believing Aikido is effective should look at Yoshinkan or its predecessor, Daito Ryu Jujutsu.

Robert has Sankyo'd the correct.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by chusauli
"The basic premise of standing joint locks is striking an opponent senseles first, then doing the armlock. To just do it without apply strikes is useless." (Robert Chu)
..............................

AND THIS RESPONSE BY DALE FRANKS:

"Real fighting does not work like that."
................................


***OH? REALLY? So you've never seen a fight or an mma match wherein strikes set up a lock or a submission hold from a standing position?

[k gledhill]

That was my understanding too...strike , then lock...

You only have to watch 6-7 UK policemen try to subdue ONE drunk 'squad'ie' [army recruit] outside a bar one night using ..."police arrest techniques" :D based on small wrist & elbow locks etc...it ends up on the ground with a 'kill the carrier' feel to it like a rugby scrum.... guys grabbing legs, some sitting on top of the guy....6-7 policemen for ONE guy.
...not a pretty sight...no wonder cops resort to a punch or two [or too many] to subdue the 'intent' of perp..."arrest techniques" work much better.

The guys I teach who do federal air jobs mention the same sort of restrictions to them, being given a short course of BJJ at the academy + some quasi boxing/ aggression tactics ..only they feel they will never use it :D until they do the initial 'come along' strike [or 5] first. But are restricted by ..a plane load of witnesses :D with videos !!

I give a 'suggestion' that using palm strikes [as I did in fights] will give the onlookers the impression your pushing the guy away [head first] it has a nice stunning effect on the head. Equivalent to being hit with a small phone book ...and you dont hurt your knuckles if the guy covers up his face, you can still hit the top of his head just as easily...strike , attack, charge , slam into bulkhead/wall trap arrest...retain weapon etc...VT can add to your arsenal. use VT then a locking system like _____? or your choice of 'sleepers'.

Palm strikes can also be an asset in court ...I gave evidence in statements that where actually 'guided' by the police officer to make me seem 'less' the aggressor in the incident by saying to use phrases like " I was attacked and 'threw my hands out to defend myself and the guy fell down'....;)

In actual fact I waited for a guy coming at me to hit me , head down trying to grab with his lead hand as he prepped his right to strike with...I struck him full force :o:o on the forehead with a palm strike [ sparring experience told me not to use knuckles ..bare hands get injured easily striking knuckles ]
He was out of it from that point standing up holding his head with both hands... I could have done whatever I wanted to him...but had several other guys to fight that night...If I recall it was 3 of us against 7-8 guys...
memories :D

Anyone watching 'could' have seen a guy push another away...on the head a he was being attacked.:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

***OH? REALLY? So you've never seen a fight or an mma match wherein strikes set up a lock or a submission hold from a standing position?
First of all, let's differentiate between chokes, which work in an upright position, and joint locks, which rarely work.

Setting something up with a strike to land a choke, such as a guillotine, is completely different than beating the guy up and then thinking you can apply a standing joint lock.

If you think you can out strike someone and that is going to let you land a standing joint lock, you are in fantasy-land.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, its not strike then lock, it more like strike, incapacitate and then control.
The key issue that most standing joint locks are either controls that can lead to joint breaking.
Its very hard to place a resisting opponent in any kind of standing joint lock, for a mirad of reasons, but the simplest is that it requires 2 hands to apply a joint lock to 1 limb, leaving his free limbs to beat you with and sense yo have commited both hands to the lock, you are at a disadvantage.

Some locks can be applied so fast that they become breaks, most aikido and hapkido wrist locks are like that, its just very, very hard to do so against someone actively trying to rip your face off and tea bag you silly.

[Knifefighter]

Actually, its not strike then lock, it more like strike, incapacitate and then control..
Again, real life does not work that way. If you've incapacitated someone with strikes, he's going down fast. If he's still standing, he's not incapacitated enough not to still be fighting you and keep you from applying the joint lock.

If you think someone is just going to stand there once he is "incapacitated", you are as delusional as the rest of these guys.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Again, real life does not work that way. If you've incapacitated someone with strikes, he's going down fast. If he's still standing, he's not incapacitated enough not to still be fighting you and keep you from applying the joint lock.

If you think someone is just going to stand there once he is "incapacitated", you are as delusional as the rest of these guys.

I am repeated what is usually stated when referring to the practical application of standing locks, that with which I agree to a certain point.
Standing joint locks are a very low percentage move, that is very clear.
Can they work on the untrained when they are in an incapacited state? yes, of course they can.
Perhaps "defenseless state" is a better term?
Either way, I have used them, my fellow ex-bouncers have use them, under those conditions, though typically in a 2-on-1 or 3- on 1, situation ( easier to get rid of someone with numerical advantage).
I had a situation at work a few years ago with an ex-employee and I was able to neutralise it with a standing joint lock ( against a wall in this case).
Again, not typical 1-on-1 situation but I feel that is a person makes the core of his training standing joint locks and traines them in a realistic fashion, then I believe that he will be able to do them well when the time comes.
Issue is that training joint locks in an "alive" way is a tad painful.

As for my delusions, I'd like to keep them in the Jessica Abba variety :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course you can use them when you've got another person or two controlling the opponent.


The only person it's too painful for is the person who is getting his face smashed in while attempting to apply the standing lock.

As funny as that is:
I have had limited exposure to standing joint locks, only in the context of Yoshinkan Aikido and Hapkido, and it hurt big time, especially Hapkido, those ****ers love to make you flip around like a fish out of water.
Got me wrist dislocated and was out for a few weeks and decided that my uber sexiness was too awesome for hapkido.
Now, granted, getting things done to you in training is one thing and doing it in a practical situation is another, but under the context of what I was mentioning (training) hapkido joint locks were some of the most painful training I have ever done.

[Knifefighter]

Now, granted, getting things done to you in training is one thing and doing it in a practical situation is another, but under the context of what I was mentioning (training) hapkido joint locks were some of the most painful training I have ever done.
Training Hapkido joint locks, in which you let your opponent apply the lock, is nothing like sparring it. Of course they work and are painful when you let the opponent apply them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Training Hapkido joint locks, in which you let your opponent apply the lock, is nothing like sparring it. Of course they work and are painful when you let the opponent apply them.

There is "free style" sparring in Hapkido too, certainly compared to Aikido it is VERY free style.
The thing is, even in that context SOME control must be exercised, it was in one of those session that my wrist was dislocated.
I think it harks back to the central issue of "too deadly", in this case to "painful", there is no way to train joint locks in the correct manner ( full contact, full resistence) without the dangers of broken joints, especially in the standing grappling game.
Remember that just that got his arm broken ( Dislocated elbow?) from that standing Wakigatame ? ( "armpit" lock") a few years ago?
Because you can't really train them the best way they become that much harder to be made effective.
My 2 cents on the matter.

[Knifefighter]

I think it harks back to the central issue of "too deadly", in this case to "painful", there is no way to train joint locks in the correct manner ( full contact, full resistence) without the dangers of broken joints, especially in the standing grappling game.
It's not that they are too dangerous to spar full force with. They are no more dangerous than training full force on the ground.

People get their limbs broken and dislocated all the time on the ground when training and competing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's not that they are too dangerous to spar full force with. They are no more dangerous than training full force on the ground.

People get their limbs broken and dislocated all the time on the ground when training and competing.

Granted, but, and I think you will agree on this, for standing joint locks to work they have to be applied under a different set of parameters.
An arm bar on the ground can be applied succesfully in a controlled way, even the amount of force can be controlled and still have some control over the limb and person because they are on the ground and mobility is more restrictive than standing, whereas a standing arm bar like the one I mentioned earlier ( Wakigatame) must be applied in a far more dynamic way to make it effective in a practical training session.
What I am saying is that standing joint locks need to be more dynamic than the ones applied on the ground and as such the potential for injury can be greater.

[Knifefighter]

Granted, but, and I think you will agree on this, for standing joint locks to work they have to be applied under a different set of parameters.
An arm bar on the ground can be applied succesfully in a controlled way, even the amount of force can be controlled and still have some control over the limb and person because they are on the ground and mobility is more restrictive than standing, whereas a standing arm bar like the one I mentioned earlier ( Wakigatame) must be applied in a far more dynamic way to make it effective in a practical training session.
What I am saying is that standing joint locks need to be more dynamic than the ones applied on the ground and as such the potential for injury can be greater.
If anything, they standing joint locks are safer than those done on the ground. The fact that they are so much easier to escape and counter makes it just that much easier to keep your opponent from applying one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If anything, they standing joint locks are safer than those done on the ground. The fact that they are so much easier to escape and counter makes it just that much easier to keep your opponent from applying one.

In THAT regard, yes.

[grasshopper 2.0]

Chin na is "crap" only when u believe that it's something that you can force to happen. Instead, when the arm, position, body etc presents itself in which an arm lock can be employed then chin na skills are useful. It's something that should be applied passively rather than forced upon the opponent.

If u don't have the chin na skills and such an opportunity presented itself (eg the guy was knocked hard to the ground or against a wall from a good punch), then u wouldn't know to apply the lock.

So ya, chin na has its time and place. One's training is not about high percentage vs low percentage neccessarily.

[JPinAZ]

Which brings me to my point - does the timeframe of an exchange get longer (i.e. you get more time to react/act) as you move to clinch, grappling, ground, etc?

Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?

Reply:

IMHO,
The biggest reason is the type of power generation platform is not capable to produce power to support the action at the contact.

thus, it defauts into pure mascular power and those who have more muscular strength and use to the condition via practice win.

I am actually feel sad to see WCK no longer has the power platform to do the job.

What are you even talking about? What 'power platform of WCK' are you talking that is no longer here? Can you elaborate?
Why do you assume WCK has use pure muscle power to operate between stirking and clinch range? And, with this statement, do you speak for all WCK?

Maybe you find your WCK is missing some things, but that is only your WCK. To imply that you are sure that something is missing from all modern WCK as you have done several times here is rediculous. To make such a silly statements, you would have to know all present day WCK, and also all past WCK, going back hundreds of years to know if anything is now 'missing'. I highly doubt you're that old.

[grasshopper 2.0]

Lol- so fine, assume he's talking about his wck or someone else's. Big deal - do u agree with the concept or idea he is trying to make or not? Really..why pick on such things?

Hahah abd ya I see the irony of me posting about this myself.

To the topic - time frame to hit gets shorter as distance closes in. But the fighting time frame may have been extended by going into the clinch/ground

[JPinAZ]

I'll have to wait for his reply before I can comment. I am not sure I even understand what he is saying is now missing from WCK. This isn't the first or second time he's said it lately.

As far as picking, you're right, it is ironical, you're doing just that with your reply post to mine. What do you think about what he said?

[Hendrik]

To the topic - time frame to hit gets shorter as distance closes in. But the fighting time frame may have been extended by going into the clinch/ground


That is true, however, IMHO, time frame depends also on power generation platform.

IE: a jumbo jet which has to take a long run way to take off. A bomb which just blast as triggle. ....etc

Time can become non linear....

[Frost]

really have you ever trained it? or do you just speak on matters you have no knowledge of?
like i said your own bjj employs chin na rather lousy china na but chin na never the less but yet you mock it this just shows you dont know what your talking about


Have you trained in it? I thought your background was karate and boxing, now you are an expert in chin na and dim mak... who did you learn from?

I spent over a decade in Chinese arts learning various chin na methods and everything knifefighter and Merry says is in my experience spot on: there is too much room for movement on your feet to make standing locks work in a one on one environment. If you have buddies with and you need to restrain someone then that’s different,, but even then (as someone has already pointed out) it can be difficult. Just look at when police officers try to use them on a suspect more often than not it becomes a free for all and they swarm the guy, pin him to the ground ,isolate his arms and then apply the restraints.

[goju]

Have you trained in it? I thought your background was karate and boxing, now you are an expert in chin na and dim mak... who did you learn from?

I spent over a decade in Chinese arts learning various chin na methods and everything knifefighter and Merry says is in my experience spot on: there is too much room for movement on your feet to make standing locks work in a one on one environment. If you have buddies with and you need to restrain someone then that’s different,, but even then (as someone has already pointed out) it can be difficult. Just look at when police officers try to use them on a suspect more often than not it becomes a free for all and they swarm the guy, pin him to the ground ,isolate his arms and then apply the restraints.
karate and boxing are my two main arts however it seems like you dont realize china na and dim mak are in karate :)

so whats your point every technique can be difficult to apply against a resisting opponent particularly when you dont train it thats bloody obvious

most police officers dont know how to properly restrain some one and again you think the avergae cop practices his holds on a daily basis lol come on

[sanjuro_ronin]

The "chin na and dim mak" in Karate are as like the striking in BJJ, LOL !!

[goju]

The "chin na and dim mak" in Karate are as like the striking in BJJ, LOL !!

um what? your post doesnt make sense?

[sanjuro_ronin]

um what? your post doesnt make sense?

Actually, yes it does.
Dim Mak and Chin na in Karate is as big a joke as striking in BJJ.

[goju]

Actually, yes it does.
Dim Mak and Chin na in Karate is as big a joke as striking in BJJ.
no but your second one does
its a joke according to who?

[sanjuro_ronin]

no but your second one does
its a joke according to who?

Well, to be honest, pretty much anyone in Japan and Okinawa, I found that out when I was over there, by the way, I h ave been doing Karate ( Okinawan Goju and Kyokushin) since 82.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A few years ago I had a conversation with Higaonna sensei in which we discussed Bunkai and Himitsu and I kind of put him on the space and asked if the "recent" bunkai and himitsu were a case of making something that wasn't there into something and he just gave me that shy smile that most Asian do when they get caught...LOL !
Fact is there is more talk of dim mak and chin na in N.America by caucasians than there is in Japan and Okinawa.

[goju]

A few years ago I had a conversation with Higaonna sensei in which we discussed Bunkai and Himitsu and I kind of put him on the space and asked if the "recent" bunkai and himitsu were a case of making something that wasn't there into something and he just gave me that shy smile that most Asian do when they get caught...LOL !
Fact is there is more talk of dim mak and chin na in N.America by caucasians than there is in Japan and Okinawa.
china na is widely taught by higanonna he even demonstrated dim mak on human weapon

[sanjuro_ronin]

china na is widely taught by higanonna he even demonstrated dim mak on human weapon

I think you need to re-read my post.

[goju]

I think you need to re-read my post.
why?dim mak is taught as well as chin na as part of the okinawna karate curriculum ive yet to see a okinawan master whos ignored either of those aspects in training :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

why?dim mak is taught as well as chin na as part of the okinawna karate curriculum ive yet to see a okinawan master whos ignored either of those aspects in training :)

It wasn't there before, what happend all of a sudden? revelation?
Kyusho-jutsu is a very rudimentary form of Dim Mak, most TCMA think of what the JMA and OMA do in regards to Dim Mak and Chin na as an infantile joke.

[goju]

no its not ive seen the same china locks in karate as i do in cma

and most chinese practioners who say karate is a joke say that because of their countries history with japan they dont realize the okinawans are their own distinct ethnic group :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

no its not ive seen the same china locks in karate as i do in cma

and most chinese practioners who say karate is a joke say that because of their countries history with japan they dont realize the okinawans are their own distinct ethnic group :)

If that is your chosen view, fine.

[Frost]

karate and boxing are my two main arts however it seems like you dont realize china na and dim mak are in karate :)

so whats your point every technique can be difficult to apply against a resisting opponent particularly when you dont train it thats bloody obvious

most police officers dont know how to properly restrain some one and again you think the avergae cop practices his holds on a daily basis lol come on


No what’s bloody obvious is that some techniques are just more difficult if not impossible to pull off than others, and if they are that difficult why bother learning them?

Don’t you think if standing locks worked at all you would see them all the time in grappling matches as they beat the hell out of having to pull off a takedown, pass the guard and secure dominant position before even attempting a submission?

So according to you nearly all the police out there are improperly trained and even if they were properly trained by an expert such as yourself they would still need to practise these holds on a daily basis in order to have a prayer of pulling them off?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issue of grappling in Karate is one that I have dealt with before.
Its typically been propegated more in N.America than in Asia, in Okinawa and Japan you don't go to karate to learn/train grappling,period.
Every system has some rudimentary grappling and dim mak, along the lines that Judo and BJJ have striking.
Those techniques are far inferior to what the system is specialized in, in the case of Karate, striking.
Standing grappling and Dim Mak came about from the Bunkai and the Himitsu ( Hidden hands) of the various Kata, when it became clear that many of moves just didn't work as strikes and it was clear that many had ani-grappling ( standing) applications.
The joint locking and vital point striking taught in typical karate is rudimentary and basic at best, though many instructors have greatly expanded their knowledge of these things to offer better quality for their students, like Morio Higaonna and Taira Sensei have, to name just two.
It doesn't change the fact that Karate is NOT a joint locking system and never was and that Dim Mak, outside the typical vital point striking, is not a primary focus of the majority of Karate systems.

[goju]

wow who deleted my posts?

[Sihing73]

wow who deleted my posts?

I did, and Dales too. Fun is fun but I was afraid Dale would have a coronary.

Seriously, we already hijacked one thread figured this one was best left alone.

[goju]

No what’s bloody obvious is that some techniques are just more difficult if not impossible to pull off than others, and if they are that difficult why bother learning them?

Don’t you think if standing locks worked at all you would see them all the time in grappling matches as they beat the hell out of having to pull off a takedown, pass the guard and secure dominant position before even attempting a submission?

most people dont think out side of the box they automatically regurgitate what their instructor tells em with out thinking themselves or they excuse the fact that they are not skilled enough to pull off a certain technique on the the fact that it dosnt work
and correct me if im wrong most grappling styles dont have standing locks in them so its kind of hard to do something you werent taught



"So according to you nearly all the police out there are improperly trained"

yup thats my poiny exactly look at the tv show cops for example most of the times a officer is trying to detain a fleeing suspect he just clings on him to dear life until they both fall down . however there have been a few small instances where the officer used a standing lock or as i once saw a aikido throw


" they would still need to practise these holds on a daily basis in order to have a prayer of pulling them off?"

well of course you need to practice daily to pull of any technique thats a big duh lol



sheeesh:D:D:D:D:D:):confused:

[goju]

I did, and Dales too. Fun is fun but I was afraid Dale would have a coronary.

Seriously, we already hijacked one thread figured this one was best left alone.
i dont think this was going into an argument like dales cardiac episode though at least so far

[Frost]

"most people dont think out side of the box they automatically regurgitate what their instructor tells em with out thinking themselves or they excuse the fact that they are not skilled enough to pull off a certain technique on the the fact that it dosnt work
and correct me if im wrong most grappling styles dont have standing locks in them so its kind of hard to do something you werent taught"

most people I know who compete in submission wrestling or MMA are constantly looking for something outside the box that is easy to pull and doesn't require much work, and they normally come from a traditional background and have practised standing locks before, or will have tried them at some point in their class, usually early on in training when you are eager to come up with cool new stuff that works.

Its not that they don't think for themselves or are not skilled, its that this stuff doesn't work, but feel free to prove me wrong and show me instances of it working.... not just the odd one or two but several so we can see they are high percentage moves.

"yup thats my poiny exactly look at the tv show cops for example most of the times a officer is trying to detain a fleeing suspect he just clings on him to dear life until they both fall down . however there have been a few small instances where the officer used a standing lock or as i once saw a aikido throw"

So you think you could do much better?... Right… it could be as you say that all these police we see are poorly trained and useless and just hold on for dear life… or it could be that holding an opponent close and taking him to the ground to limit his movement (i.e grappling) is what actually works most the time in real life…...

"well of course you need to practice daily to pull of any technique thats a big duh lol"

Tell that to all the guys out there competing who have full time jobs and can only hit the gym at most 3 or 4 times a week, they seem to do ok

[goju]

well this is the end to the standing joint locking technique debate
you remember the chinese general yue fei correct? remember that he taught his troops the joint locking techniques that re now present in eagle claw?
well do explain to me why a general would teach his army ineffective techniques that dont work in alife and death battle?
this will be fun
and please lets not have this turn into a nother dale cornary heart attack thread just because you dont like my opinion on a subject dosnt mean you have to get your panties in abunch over it

[goju]

yes actually i think going close to someone and pretty much hugging onto them until you drag himdown with you is a ineffective means of a takedown compared to a standing joint lock or say a judo trip or throw which is more efficient and uses less effort because you arent meeting force with force as you would do brutishly tugging them to the ground
the bjj coach i had even worked as a cop and a corrections officer and noted most police cant properly defend themselves and rely too much on their weapons:D

as far as your last comment indeed but those who train everyday dilligently will far surpass those who only train three or four times a week
and please dont respond to this in a rediculous manner im getting quite bored with the key board bil jee that is rampant on the wing chun forum

[Frost]

well this is the end to the standing joint locking technique debate
you remember the chinese general yue fei correct? remember that he taught his troops the joint locking techniques that re now present in eagle claw?
well do explain to me why a general would teach his army ineffective techniques that dont work in alife and death battle?
this will be fun
and please lets not have this turn into a nother dale cornary heart attack thread just because you dont like my opinion on a subject dosnt mean you have to get your panties in abunch over it

So I ask for evidence of standing locks working and you go back 800 years or so to talk about some Chinese general? Were you there, did you see how effective these techniques were on the battle field… don’t you think that his number one priority in war time would have been training his troops in armed combat? And if the techniques he trained were so good, where are all the eagle claw guys now dominating the MMA and grappling competitions with there standing locks…. Any examples…. Anywhere….

While you are at it how about some examples, preferably from this century with actual evidence… I know that might be asking a little too much but one can always hope:)

[Frost]

yes actually i think going close to someone and pretty much hugging onto them until you drag himdown with you is a ineffective means of a takedown compared to a standing joint lock or say a judo trip or throw which is more efficient and uses less effort because you arent meeting force with force as you would do brutishly tugging them to the ground
the bjj coach i had even worked as a cop and a corrections officer and noted most police cant properly defend themselves and rely too much on their weapons:D

as far as your last comment indeed but those who train everyday dilligently will far surpass those who only train three or four times a week
and please dont respond to this in a rediculous manner im getting quite bored with the key board bil jee that is rampant on the wing chun forum

Why am I not surprised that you have also trained in BJJ, you see to be a expert on so many arts :)

Have you trained judo at all, do you know how hard you have to work to pull of those throws? Not to mention the legal ramifications of planting someone face first into the ground at a great velocity? And using trips on someone and following them to the ground ends up looking a lot like your brutish drags to the floor.

No those who train diligently every day will only surpass those who train three or four times a week if they are training useful high percentage moves, I would put money on a BJJ purple belt who only trains three times a week destroying a traditional guy practising standing locks everyday. Its not the time invested in training that counts as much as the efficiency and effectiveness of the training you are doing, and for all there faults this is something we can thank the Gracie’s for reminding us of all those years ago

[goju]

Why am I not surprised that you have also trained in BJJ, you see to be a expert on so many arts :)

Have you trained judo at all, do you know how hard you have to work to pull of those throws? Not to mention the legal ramifications of planting someone face first into the ground at a great velocity? And using trips on someone and following them to the ground ends up looking a lot like your brutish drags to the floor.

No those who train diligently every day will only surpass those who train three or four times a week if they are training useful high percentage moves, I would put money on a BJJ purple belt who only trains three times a week destroying a traditional guy practising standing locks everyday. Its not the time invested in training that counts as much as the efficiency and effectiveness of the training you are doing, and for all there faults this is something we can thank the Gracie’s for reminding us of all those years ago


actualy i only trained in bjj because that its what the gym i was with offered i had no interest in it:)

judo throws arent intended to be done with alot of force hence it being called the gentle art:)
and you have just as much of a chance to crack some ones head open tripping or throwing them as you do hugging them and forcing them to the ground

"No those who train diligently every day will only surpass those who train three or four times a week if they are training useful high percentage moves, I would put money on a BJJ purple belt who only trains three times a week destroying a traditional guy practising standing locks everyday. Its not the time invested in training that counts as much as the efficiency and effectiveness of the training you are doing, and for all there faults this is something we can thank the Gracie’s for reminding us of all those years ago"

never said a person who trains alot in an ineffective manner will become anything stop putting words in my mouth :) and no where did i say i or any other style just relies on joint locks from standing up

as far as your last sentence goes this has been a statement long argued by many others before the gracies cough cough bruce lee cough its hardly something you can give them credit for

[goju]

and i disagree the time you put into it is the biggest part of your training
you can train in the most efficient art in the world if you dont put time into it you then whats the point?

[Frost]

“actualy i only trained in bjj because that its what the gym i was with offered i had no interest in it ”

you know what they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing :)

“judo throws arent intended to be done with alot of force hence it being called the gentle art ”

You are joking right, have you done any judo… it is far and away the least gentle art out there, I see more injuries from judo that any other contact sport.


“and you have just as much of a chance to crack some ones head open tripping or throwing them as you do hugging them and forcing them to the ground”

But here intent is the key and if you are an officer with witnesses all around it becomes a vital aspect to your thinking. It’s rather hard to argue it was an accident your honour if you have been seen launching the subject 6 feet into the air and bringing him crashing down on his head.


"never said a person who trains alot in an ineffective manner will become anything stop putting words in my mouth and no where did i say i or any other style just relies on joint locks from standing up"

Nope you said the person who trains the most becomes the best, and I replied only if they are both training realistically, and since I hold the opinion that training standing locks is unrealistic I used that as an example… I am still waiting for you to show me I am wrong and that they are high percentage and realistic

“as far as your last sentence goes this has been a statement long argued by many others before the gracies cough cough bruce lee cough its hardly something you can give them credit for”

long argued yes, they actually went one better and put the argument to bed by showing that the argument was right by taking on challengers and proving its how you train and not how long you train that’s important

[Frost]

and i disagree the time you put into it is the biggest part of your training
you can train in the most efficient art in the world if you dont put time into it you then whats the point?

The point is when you have less and less time to put into your training due to family and work commitments… or being on active duty, then you want to spend your time training the most realistic and high percentage stuff you can, that’s if your goal is to become a better fighter or be able to defend yourself.

I know guys who only roll or train MMA twice a week due to other commitments, but they are good enough to compete at the amateur level and look after themselves on the street because they spend what little time they have training focusing on the fundamentals that have been proven to work. If they trained more often would they be better, of course but only if they trained harder in the same fundamental high percentage moves.

[goju]

yes i currently do judo now and you are not supposed to use a great deal of force to preform the techniques i dont care if you see them done that way jigoro kano didnt devise the moves to be like that :)

nope as i said you could just as easily crack some ones head open dragging them to the ground as you could tripping or throwing them and no where did i say the officer should suplex the criminal on to the hood of his car did i frost:) there a re throwing and tripping moves that are safe to use that will not harm a person seriously if preformed right


no sorry i dont generally view things the same way you do. people training unrealistically in a bogus martial art or what ever you wish to call it doesnt cross my mind because peopel like that dont count perhaps thats where your confusion over the training time thing comes from
i assumed we were only discussing people who train at a good place with quality instruction

as far as the gracies are concerned again what they claimed was nothing new even china beat them to nhb competitions pittings styles against styles by hundreds of years

[goju]

The point is when you have less and less time to put into your training due to family and work commitments… or being on active duty, then you want to spend your time training the most realistic and high percentage stuff you can, that’s if your goal is to become a better fighter or be able to defend yourself.

I know guys who only roll or train MMA twice a week due to other commitments, but they are good enough to compete at the amateur level and look after themselves on the street because they spend what little time they have training focusing on the fundamentals that have been proven to work. If they trained more often would they be better, of course but only if they trained harder in the same fundamental high percentage moves.

yes but thats the point training in a bad school with lousy instruction for long hours is no different than training in a good school with quality instruction for a little amount of time
your not gonna get much either way

[goju]

the judo textbook in practical application by howard nishioka


"study the correct way of appling throws throwing with brute force is not the correct way of winning judo"
:D

[Frost]

yes i currently do judo now and you are not supposed to use a great deal of force to preform the techniques i dont care if you see them done that way jigoro kano didnt devise the moves to be like that :)

nope as i said you could just as easily crack some ones head open dragging them to the ground as you could tripping or throwing them and no where did i say the officer should suplex the criminal on to the hood of his car did i frost:) there a re throwing and tripping moves that are safe to use that will not harm a person seriously if preformed right


no sorry i dont generally view things the same way you do. people training unrealistically in a bogus martial art or what ever you wish to call it doesnt cross my mind because peopel like that dont count perhaps thats where your confusion over the training time thing comes from
i assumed we were only discussing people who train at a good place with quality instruction

as far as the gracies are concerned again what they claimed was nothing new even china beat them to nhb competitions pittings styles against styles by hundreds of years


Really so as well as MMA, BJJ, karate, boxing and wing chun you now train judo? All I can say is your judo school must have a much higher standard of fighters than the lads I have sparred with, you only time the throws I see are gentle are when you are learning them, once you start sparring it becomes rough, dangerous and nasty. The lads I spar with have been part of the UK national squad and held national titles at the junior level, where have you and your guys competed?

How do you know you are getting good instruction and training in a quality environment? How do any of us? How do you know the training methods you are using are realistic and useful?

the chinese might have beaten them to NHB but they sure forgot about that kind of training for a long time.

[goju]

Really so as well as MMA, BJJ, karate, boxing and wing chun you now train judo? All I can say is your judo school must have a much higher standard of fighters than the lads I have sparred with, you only time the throws I see are gentle are when you are learning them, once you start sparring it becomes rough, dangerous and nasty. The lads I spar with have been part of the UK national squad and held national titles at the junior level, where have you and your guys competed?


How do you know you are getting good instruction and training in a quality environment? How do any of us? How do you know the training methods you are using are realistic and useful?

the chinese might have beaten them to NHB but they sure forgot about that kind of training for a long time.
no i dont do bjj anymore the only reason i did it in the first place was because thats all thats offered at the gym close to me ive always wanted to learn judo and fell more comfortable with it than bjj and feel its more of a complete grapppling art ;)

How do you know you are getting good instruction and training in a quality environment? How do any of us? How do you know the training methods you are using are realistic and useful?
"shrugs" you didnt answer your own question you aimed at yourself as well how should i?

" the chinese might have beaten them to NHB but they sure forgot about that kind of training for a long time"
according to who? theres how many thousands of chinese masters out there youve mean to tell me youve met most of them and know how they train?
see thats what i mean about regurgitating what some one else told you


"only time the throws I see are gentle are when you are learning them, once you start sparring it becomes rough, dangerous and nasty"
then how do you explain howards nisiokas quote?

[Pacman]

yes but thats the point training in a bad school with lousy instruction for long hours is no different than training in a good school with quality instruction for a little amount of time
your not gonna get much either way

goju you are very correct. frost does not understand the most important principle in judo. this is much like terrence not understanding one of the most important principles in wing chun.

the translated terms soft and gentle do not mean that things are done without force or that no one gets hurt.

it means that you dont try to simply overpower your opponent


The soft method is characterized by the indirect application of force to defeat an opponent. More specifically, it is the principle of using one's opponent's strength against him and adapting well to changing circumstances. For example, if the attacker was to push against his opponent he would find his opponent stepping to the side and allowing his momentum (often with the aid of a foot to trip him up) to throw him forwards (the inverse being true for pulling.)

[sanjuro_ronin]

As a shodan in Judo and someone that has won his share of Randori at the national level and as someone with a few years of BJJ in the MMA context and as someone that is a tad on the strong side I say this:
I would only use standing grappling AFTER I have basically beaten the crap out of somene and only as a methods to control them as I take them to the ground.
Or if I have some help to use it without having to beat on someone.
Now take into account that I bounced for quite a few years here in Toronto also, I hope that means a tad to those that have NEVER used standing grappling on someone trying to rip their faces off and are debating on doing so.
That is the final word on the mater for me.

[Frost]

As a shodan in Judo and someone that has won his share of Randori at the national level and as someone with a few years of BJJ in the MMA context and as someone that is a tad on the strong side I say this:
I would only use standing grappling AFTER I have basically beaten the crap out of somene and only as a methods to control them as I take them to the ground.
Or if I have some help to use it without having to beat on someone.
Now take into account that I bounced for quite a few years here in Toronto also, I hope that means a tad to those that have NEVER used standing grappling on someone trying to rip their faces off and are debating on doing so.
That is the final word on the mater for me.

no point saying anything else after this, experience always wins these arguements

[goju]

As a shodan in Judo and someone that has won his share of Randori at the national level and as someone with a few years of BJJ in the MMA context and as someone that is a tad on the strong side I say this:
I would only use standing grappling AFTER I have basically beaten the crap out of somene and only as a methods to control them as I take them to the ground.
Or if I have some help to use it without having to beat on someone.
Now take into account that I bounced for quite a few years here in Toronto also, I hope that means a tad to those that have NEVER used standing grappling on someone trying to rip their faces off and are debating on doing so.
That is the final word on the mater for me.
no ones disagreeing with you standing locks have their time and space in a fight im just saying they work and i used yui feis locking tecnhiques he taught his soldiers as an example of them not being bs :)
if you go runninga cross he mat at some one intent on locking them its not gonna work but thats applies for most technniques you force :)
you guys keep arguing a point with me thats i neer even posted to begin with lol

[goju]

goju you are very correct. frost does not understand the most important principle in judo. this is much like terrence not understanding one of the most important principles in wing chun.

the translated terms soft and gentle do not mean that things are done without force or that no one gets hurt.

it means that you dont try to simply overpower your opponent
hell im new to judo but they reoeat over and over not to use brute force
jigoro kano was not a big guy either so he couldnt muscle people about

[sanjuro_ronin]

no ones disagreeing with you standing locks have their time and space in a fight im just saying they work and i used yui feis locking tecnhiques he taught his soldiers as an example of them not being bs :)
if you go runninga cross he mat at some one intent on locking them its not gonna work but thats applies for most technniques you force :)
you guys keep arguing a point with me thats i neer even posted to begin with lol

Lots of BS was and still is taught to soldiers.
Up untill the 80's soldiers were still taught that old WW2 H2H move where you drive the NOSE BONE into the skull !!
LOL !!

[sanjuro_ronin]

hell im new to judo but they reoeat over and over not to use brute force
jigoro kano was not a big guy either so he couldnt muscle people about

Why are there weight limits in Judo?
Because, all else being equal, strength and size count, period.
And things get equal real fast in competition.

[Knifefighter]

yes i currently do judo now and you are not supposed to use a great deal of force to preform the techniques i dont care if you see them done that way jigoro kano didnt devise the moves to be like that :)

LOL... of course you think they are supposed to be done like that. You are a theoretical, pretend, non-fighter (in addition to being brain-damaged from being born as a crack baby).

How do I know that you are a pretend, theoretical, non-fighter? Because anyone who has actually done throws for real against resisting opponents knows that's throws have to be done hard and with force.

Not to mention the fact that the evidence is everywhere that is contrary to what you believe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhmNsdFy00U&feature=fvw

Also note: See how they always both go to the ground when the throw occurs? That's also what happens when you throw or sweep resisting opponents who have half a clue.

[t_niehoff]

How do I know that you are a pretend, theoretical, non-fighter? Because anyone who has actually done throws for real against resisting opponents knows that's throws have to be done hard and with force.

Not to mention the fact that the evidence is everywhere that is contrary to what you believe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhmNsdFy00U&feature=fvw

Also note: See how they always both go to the ground when the throw occurs? That's also what happens when you throw or sweep resisting opponents who have half a clue.

This is a very good example of a point I keep making: people with genuine experience fighting/grappling/etc. KNOW what it is really like, they KNOW what will really happen, etc. They've been there and done it. That's why it is worth listening to these people.

AND, from that experience, they KNOW what sort of things won't happen, what sorts of things won't work or will be low percentage, etc. A famous physicist made the quip (and it equally applies here): The more we know about how things actually do work, the more we know about how things don't work.

So when people say the opposite, anyone with genuine experience KNOWS they are talking from pure theory, from conjecture or fantasy -- they KNOW if those people had also done it they would know better. That they don't know better can only mean they haven't done it.

The standard theoretican retort is "just because you can't do it or haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't be done or doesn't work that way . . . " Some will even go on to say that they can do it. But, as I said, the more we know about how things do work, the more we know about how they don't. A wreslter who is great at takedowns knows what will work to stuff him and what sorts of things won't. A good boxer (someone with really good punching skill) will know what sorts of things can work against him and what sort of things won't.

[monji112000]

hell im new to judo but they reoeat over and over not to use brute force
jigoro kano was not a big guy either so he couldnt muscle people about

when i first started training Judo I also got confused. Nobody is saying that technique should win over any advantage. The problem is the bigger, stronger, and faster the guy is the more(better) technique you need. You must be strong and fast combined with technical skill. Once you stop doing Kata style training and start Randori you will see that the throws are ideas, not set exact laws.
competition style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrgsCmTQWLc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahs_J2X9B-g
kata style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O93a4H5dEis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SuAzlYzpJk

I for one enjoy absolute style randori, but I like the challenge. Weight classes are for a reason.

[goju]

Lots of BS was and still is taught to soldiers.
Up untill the 80's soldiers were still taught that old WW2 H2H move where you drive the NOSE BONE into the skull !!
LOL !!
yu fei was an ancient chinse general you mean to tell me he would have taught ineefective techniques to his soldeiers that dont work

[goju]

LOL... of course you think they are supposed to be done like that. You are a theoretical, pretend, non-fighter (in addition to being brain-damaged from being born as a crack baby).

How do I know that you are a pretend, theoretical, non-fighter? Because anyone who has actually done throws for real against resisting opponents knows that's throws have to be done hard and with force.

Not to mention the fact that the evidence is everywhere that is contrary to what you believe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhmNsdFy00U&feature=fvw

Also note: See how they always both go to the ground when the throw occurs? That's also what happens when you throw or sweep resisting opponents who have half a clue.
so aikido is done with force as well lol hapkido? tai chia and pak kua throws?

[goju]

Why are there weight limits in Judo?
Because, all else being equal, strength and size count, period.
And things get equal real fast in competition.
but the point of judo and bjj is to use leverage and technique against size not brute force:D thats my point
i even quoted a known judo master saying the same thing
but what does he know:)

[goju]

when i first started training Judo I also got confused. Nobody is saying that technique should win over any advantage. The problem is the bigger, stronger, and faster the guy is the more(better) technique you need. You must be strong and fast combined with technical skill. Once you stop doing Kata style training and start Randori you will see that the throws are ideas, not set exact laws.
competition style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrgsCmTQWLc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahs_J2X9B-g
kata style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O93a4H5dEis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SuAzlYzpJk

I for one enjoy absolute style randori, but I like the challenge. Weight classes are for a reason.
lol am i blacking out and making comments i dont recall?

[t_niehoff]

yu fei was an ancient chinse general you mean to tell me he would have taught ineefective techniques to his soldeiers that dont work

I'm sorry, but I need to ask: how f#cking stupid are you? Really? So your reasoning is that because of some legend or because people have practiced some techniques since antiquity, that those technique or training method must be good? This is your reasoning?

I gues that going by your reasoning, then the empty hand techniques the U.S. Army taught recruits in WWI must be really good too -- after all, would the US teach its recruits techniques that don't work? I guess we should all get training manuals from WWI and get to work training.

[goju]

I'm sorry, but I need to ask: how f#cking stupid are you? Really? So your reasoning is that because of some legend or because people have practiced some techniques since antiquity, that those technique or training method must be good? This is your reasoning?

I gues that going by your reasoning, then the empty hand techniques the U.S. Army taught recruits in WWI must be really good too -- after all, would the US teach its recruits techniques that don't work? I guess we should all get training manuals from WWI and get to work training.
lol yes the chinese made up a fantastical account of joint locks being used in battle ahahahahaha
no my reasoning behind the techniques is simple the soldiers lives were at stake they didnt have time to mess around with stuff that didnt work

[monji112000]

lol am i blacking out and making comments i don't recall?

is that meant as an insult? Sorry I'm not so quick, so why not say what you mean. I'll try not to laugh at your aikido, pak kua and tai chi takdowns. ;)

Have you competed in a tournament were you have tried to throw someone? Gi,no gi, mma, sanda , judo, sambo, bjj ,csw?

[goju]

is that meant as an insult? Sorry I'm not so quick, so why not say what you mean. I'll try not to laugh at your aikido, pak kua and tai chi takdowns. ;)

Have you competed in a tournament were you have tried to throw someone? Gi,no gi, mma, sanda , judo, sambo, bjj ,csw?
lol no im not insulting you im laughing at the fact that some of you guys are arguing at a point that i never made to begin with:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

yu fei was an ancient chinse general you mean to tell me he would have taught ineefective techniques to his soldeiers that dont work

You don't understand what I wrote.

[goju]

You don't understand what I wrote.
no i dont think you understand my point you think i beleive standing locks are the end all to a fight theres a time and a place where the oppurtunity is present to do them as there is with apunch or a kick:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

but the point of judo and bjj is to use leverage and technique against size not brute force:D thats my point
i even quoted a known judo master saying the same thing
but what does he know:)

You should ask him why he started STRENGTH training ( weight training) and why every competitive Judoka doe sit too, even a guy that went by the name of kimura, considered by most as the best judoka ever.

[goju]

You should ask him why he started STRENGTH training ( weight training) and why every competitive Judoka doe sit too, even a guy that went by the name of kimura, considered by most as the best judoka ever.
i know who kimura is and i know that alot of judo guys advocate weight training (remember im a goju ryu stylist weight training is part of the curriculum:D)

again you guys dont understand me im not saying you go limp and use a magic chi force to throw a person

[t_niehoff]

lol yes the chinese made up a fantastical account of joint locks being used in battle ahahahahaha
no my reasoning behind the techniques is simple the soldiers lives were at stake they didnt have time to mess around with stuff that didnt work

Yes, and it is a stupid argument to make. You could make the same argument with the WWI recruits. People teach what they know at the time -- it doesn't mean it was good then or good now.

People make up all kinds of fantastic stories.

If something truly works, and if someone can truly do it, then seeing it work today shouldn't be a problem. Or, do you think that these things really worked in the past but don't work today?

[goju]

Yes, and it is a stupid argument to make. You could make the same argument with the WWI recruits. People teach what they know at the time -- it doesn't mean it was good then or good now.

People make up all kinds of fantastic stories.

If something truly works, and if someone can truly do it, then seeing it work today shouldn't be a problem. Or, do you think that these things really worked in the past but don't work today?
how is it whats a more realistic combat setting than a war zone where weapons and hand to hand were used?
your mr realistic traing advocate it dosnt get anymore real than that
but of course those mongols feis army fought didnt train with top fighters of the day so that must be why they were defeated

[sanjuro_ronin]

i know who kimura is and i know that alot of judo guys advocate weight training (remember im a goju ryu stylist weight training is part of the curriculum:D)

again you guys dont understand me im not saying you go limp and use a magic chi force to throw a person

No, you said that "brute force" ie: strength is not used in Judo and I am pointing that is quite incorrect, don't confuse the principles of a system to what is need to APPLY them.

[goju]

No, you said that "brute force" ie: strength is not used in Judo and I am pointing that is quite incorrect, don't confuse the principles of a system to what is need to APPLY them.
so judo isnt a leverage based art then
if you are so dependant on brute force then why bother with leverage:D kind of an a contradiction there dont you think

[sanjuro_ronin]

how is it whats a more realistic combat setting than a war zone where weapons and hand to hand were used?
your mr realistic traing advocate it dosnt get anymore real than that
but of course those mongols feis army fought didnt train with top fighters of the day so that must be why they were defeated

Ok, seriously, your just teasing Us right?

[sanjuro_ronin]

so judo isnt a leverage based art then
if you are so dependant on brute force then why bother with leverage:D kind of an a contradiction there dont you think

Who is gonna be the one to apply the most leverage, the guy that can curl 30lbs or the guy that can curl 150?

[goju]

Who is gonna be the one to apply the most leverage, the guy that can curl 30lbs or the guy that can curl 150?
the guy who can curl 30 because the guy who curls 150 will rely too much on his power

[goju]

Ok, seriously, your just teasing Us right?

nope i am not

[sanjuro_ronin]

the guy who can curl 30 because the guy who curls 150 will rely too much on his power

Well, if that isn't the....ah, I am not gonna say it, I won't even bother.
No point.
Bye.

[goju]

Well, if that isn't the....ah, I am not gonna say it, I won't even bother.
No point.
Bye.
because you cant say anything ive never seen any art that advocated brute force
:D
kano wasnt a big man he could muscle people around end of story

[Sihing73]

because you cant say anything ive never seen any art that advocated brute force
:D
kano wasnt a big man he could muscle people around end of story

Ok, I'll jump in.................but I know I'll regret it :D

In any competition or real fight all factors being equal the more skilled person has an advantage. However in a real fight no one is equally skilled so other things will come into play.

I think you are missing the point here, as leverage may not rely on brute force, but the more strength and power one can use in applying that leverage can and will certainly make a difference. Thus the stronger person able to apply that strength in accordance with how they have trained would have a distinct advantage over those similarily trained but a bit weaker.

Does that sound about right ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, I'll jump in.................but I know I'll regret it :D

In any competition or real fight all factors being equal the more skilled person has an advantage. However in a real fight no one is equally skilled so other things will come into play.

I think you are missing the point here, as leverage may not rely on brute force, but the more strength and power one can use in applying that leverage can and will certainly make a difference. Thus the stronger person able to apply that strength in accordance with how they have trained would have a distinct advantage over those similarily trained but a bit weaker.

Does that sound about right ?

Dave, quite correct, add to that skill level strenght and explosive power and you have the reason there are weight categories in Judo.
I competed in kyokushin when it was no weight category and fought guys that outweighed me by 100lbs sometimes ( I was only 140 at the time).
Strength is one mother****ing equalizer !!
Anyone that has ever fought full contact knows this.

[Frost]

Dave, quite correct, add to that skill level strenght and explosive power and you have the reason there are weight categories in Judo.
I competed in kyokushin when it was no weight category and fought guys that outweighed me by 100lbs sometimes ( I was only 140 at the time).
Strength is one mother****ing equalizer !!
Anyone that has ever fought full contact knows this.

I think the part I have highlighted above is important, anyone who has actually tried to pull off throws and takedowns in competitions knows strength and explosiveness is important, and that in an actual fight or competition the effortless throw takes a lot of blood and sweat to set up.

Of course if all you have done is practise throws with a cooperative opponent and read books about the principles of an art without actually putting it into practise you might not realise this.:)

[Frost]

hell im new to judo

So if you are new maybe just maybe you should be quiet and stop telling people who have actually competed in judo and grappling competitions what Judo is or is not:D

Sanjuro_ronin is dropping some pearls of wisdom on you (gained from years of hard competition) try to actually listen to him you really might learn something:)

[Wayfaring]

Dave, quite correct, add to that skill level strenght and explosive power and you have the reason there are weight categories in Judo.
I competed in kyokushin when it was no weight category and fought guys that outweighed me by 100lbs sometimes ( I was only 140 at the time).
Strength is one mother****ing equalizer !!
Anyone that has ever fought full contact knows this.

A guy who grapples with us who won the bronze at the olympics in greco roman 96kg told us on the olympic team no greco wrestler could even score points on their teammate in the next higher weight class.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A guy who grapples with us who won the bronze at the olympics in greco roman 96kg told us on the olympic team no greco wrestler could even score points on their teammate in the next higher weight class.

That is the thing, at that level, skill is there, add strength and size and BAM !
Size matters LESS when their is a huge skill descrepency, but even then it matters.

[goju]

So if you are new maybe just maybe you should be quiet and stop telling people who have actually competed in judo and grappling competitions what Judo is or is not:D

Sanjuro_ronin is dropping some pearls of wisdom on you (gained from years of hard competition) try to actually listen to him you really might learn something:)
lol no you two frequently kept arguing against points that i didnt make first of all
judo like any throwing art has to depend on timing and leaverage
unless you are freakishly strong you are, pardon my french going to **** your pants trying to muscle a person into a throw:D:D
theres other factors in a throw besides strenth

[goju]

oh and theres numerous matches where much smaller judoka defeated their heavier opponents:D

[Knifefighter]

oh and theres numerous matches where much smaller judoka defeated their heavier opponents:D

Like any athletic endeavor, combatives take a combination of techniques and physical prowess. When the techniques are comparable, the athletic prowess takes over.

[Frost]

lol no you two frequently kept arguing against points that i didnt make first of all


You said in one of your posts that Judo throws and sweeps would work better for cops as they are more efficient takedowns and use less effort than the takedowns you see them doing.

"yes actually i think going close to someone and pretty much hugging onto them until you drag himdown with you is a ineffective means of a takedown compared to a standing joint lock or say a judo trip or throw which is more efficient and uses less effort"

I then pointed out that the judo takedowns take as much effort to set up and execute as any other takedown. You then argued that judo throws aren't meant to be done with a lot of force hence the name the gentle art, and that brute force and strength are not a big part of these throws and if you do use force when executing them you are not doing Judo properly.

"judo throws arent intended to be done with alot of force hence it being called the gentle art "

"yes i currently do judo now and you are not supposed to use a great deal of force to preform the techniques"

"hell im new to judo but they reoeat over and over not to use brute force"


A few people tried to point out that in practise Judo throws take as much effort, strength and power as any other takedown, hence all competitive Judo players do some form of weight training and there are weight classes in the sport, something you still seem to be arguing against. Is this a fair summery?

(Oh and I won’t bother talking about your use of 800 year old Chinese generals to support your views on standing locks, you inability to answer anyone’s questions about have you actually used judo throws in competitions, and your views on effortless aikido and bagua throws that have also taken place on this thread
:D)

[Frost]

That is the thing, at that level, skill is there, add strength and size and BAM !
Size matters LESS when their is a huge skill descrepency, but even then it matters.

I think everyone who has rolled or sparred with a strong conditioned athlete (rugby forward, or American football player for example) can attest to this, a new person that is big, strong and athletic is a real handful but can be caught out as they make the mistakes all new people make, but with even a few months of training they become a terror and its no fun anymore sparring them :(

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think everyone who has rolled or sparred with a strong conditioned athlete (rugby forward, or American football player for example) can attest to this, a new person that is big, strong and athletic is a real handful but can be caught out as they make the mistakes all new people make, but with even a few months of training they become a terror and its no fun anymore sparring them :(

Quite correct, it is the way it is and always has been, like I said, there are weight categories for a reason.
Obviously there are some exceptions, but we don't speak of exception we speak in general terms because those are which apply to the general/average practioner.

[goju]

You said in one of your posts that Judo throws and sweeps would work better for cops as they are more efficient takedowns and use less effort than the takedowns you see them doing.

"yes actually i think going close to someone and pretty much hugging onto them until you drag himdown with you is a ineffective means of a takedown compared to a standing joint lock or say a judo trip or throw which is more efficient and uses less effort"

I then pointed out that the judo takedowns take as much effort to set up and execute as any other takedown. You then argued that judo throws aren't meant to be done with a lot of force hence the name the gentle art, and that brute force and strength are not a big part of these throws and if you do use force when executing them you are not doing Judo properly.

"judo throws arent intended to be done with alot of force hence it being called the gentle art "

"yes i currently do judo now and you are not supposed to use a great deal of force to preform the techniques"

"hell im new to judo but they reoeat over and over not to use brute force"


A few people tried to point out that in practise Judo throws take as much effort, strength and power as any other takedown, hence all competitive Judo players do some form of weight training and there are weight classes in the sport, something you still seem to be arguing against. Is this a fair summery?

(Oh and I won’t bother talking about your use of 800 year old Chinese generals to support your views on standing locks, you inability to answer anyone’s questions about have you actually used judo throws in competitions, and your views on effortless aikido and bagua throws that have also taken place on this thread
:D)

lol ive even showed you aquote from a well know known master saying force isnt the way to correct apply judo
but what does he know compared to you guys right !? lol

my yu fei remark was perfect for the argument they wouldnt have mucked about with joint locks back then if they werent effective : simple as that
i argued theres a time and a place for those locks but both of you foolishly jumped on it making it seem like standing locks are the ultimate technique

[goju]

I think everyone who has rolled or sparred with a strong conditioned athlete (rugby forward, or American football player for example) can attest to this, a new person that is big, strong and athletic is a real handful but can be caught out as they make the mistakes all new people make, but with even a few months of training they become a terror and its no fun anymore sparring them :(
thats not saying much about the level of skill of a gym or school if some one strong just comes in and gives the regulars hell sparring simply cause hes strong lol

[Frost]

thats not saying much about the level of skill of a gym or school if some one strong just comes in and gives the regulars hell sparring simply cause hes strong lol

Can I ask have you ever actually competitively sparred or competed with anyone, ever?

One of the gyms I train at occasionally has members of one of the UK premierships rugby union teams visit, and said gym has had more than a few guys with wins in big grappling competitions and pro MMA fights, and their level of strength and athleticism gives everyone a problem, sure they tap but its hell getting them there.

You really need to actually roll with some genuinely strong athletic guys kid, it might open your eyes a little:)

[Frost]

lol ive even showed you aquote from a well know known master saying force isnt the way to correct apply judo
but what does he know compared to you guys right !? lol


And I can show you quotes from the gracies, machados etc about not meeting focre with force,.

The same could be said for wrestling too its nothing unquie or special to judo. And its just an ideal, the theory is fine what we were saying is once you put these things into practise ideals go out of the window. And everyone uses strength to make these throws work, using strength does not mean your judo is bad, it means you are using it in the real world.. Something you will understand once you try these throws out on someone instead of simply reading about them on line :)


"my yu fei remark was perfect for the argument they wouldnt have mucked about with joint locks back then if they werent effective : simple as that
i argued theres a time and a place for those locks but both of you foolishly jumped on it making it seem like standing locks are the ultimate technique"

Yes the time and place was 800 years ago on the battlefield by the looks of it, or as someone else has said when you have knocked the hell out of your opponent first or have mates helping you. Maybe some examples from this century would help your case a little more :)

Oh and just because some troops hundreds of years ago might have trained a techniques doesn’t really mean much, how much time did they spend on these tactics? did they work in combat, sources please!

I imagine they spent way more time on armed combat and group tactics than anything else but I am open minded if you can show me evidence of them beating all comers in combat using these techniques

[goju]

Can I ask have you ever actually competitively sparred or competed with anyone, ever?

One of the gyms I train at occasionally has members of one of the UK premierships rugby union teams visit, and said gym has had more than a few guys with wins in big grappling competitions and pro MMA fights, and their level of strength and athleticism gives everyone a problem, sure they tap but its hell getting them there.

You really need to actually roll with some genuinely strong athletic guys kid, it might open your eyes a little:)
yes i actually got to roll with shane carwin being that i used to train at the gym he trained at he won because he used superior technique not brute force:D

but of course i know nothing i dont train hard or spar because i dont agree with you lol

[goju]

And I can show you quotes from the gracies, machados etc about not meeting focre with force,.

The same could be said for wrestling too its nothing unquie or special to judo. And its just an ideal, the theory is fine what we were saying is once you put these things into practise ideals go out of the window. And everyone uses strength to make these throws work, using strength does not mean your judo is bad, it means you are using it in the real world.. Something you will understand once you try these throws out on someone instead of simply reading about them on line :)


"my yu fei remark was perfect for the argument they wouldnt have mucked about with joint locks back then if they werent effective : simple as that
i argued theres a time and a place for those locks but both of you foolishly jumped on it making it seem like standing locks are the ultimate technique"

Yes the time and place was 800 years ago on the battlefield by the looks of it, or as someone else has said when you have knocked the hell out of your opponent first or have mates helping you. Maybe some examples from this century would help your case a little more :)

Oh and just because some troops hundreds of years ago might have trained a techniques doesn’t really mean much, how much time did they spend on these tactics? did they work in combat, sources please!

I imagine they spent way more time on armed combat and group tactics than anything else but I am open minded if you can show me evidence of them beating all comers in combat using these techniques
mate cool it with your im not a real this or i dont train hard for all i know your just some teenager sitting in his ufc jammies who claims he trains as well so if your going to act like a idiot with these little jabs i suggest you take them else where:D

lol so do explain to me why standing joint locks are in so many martial arts if they dont work please do enlighten me because im curious to know your brilliant explanation for why they were added but dont work:D(this should be fun)

as far as the force thing goes if you trull ever tried to throw some one using fore youll find out how hard it is we have plenty of throws in goju ryu but the key is off balancing and timing
i dont care how strong you are its extremly difficult to toss some one using muscle power alone the minute they fell what your doing its dead weight your lifting

therfore it is better to use leverage and your guys strength against his:D

[Wayfaring]

yes i actually got to roll with shane carwin being that i used to train at the gym he trained at he won because he used superior technique not brute force:D

was that up at nate marquardt's place in denver? i heard he was up there before he went down to greg jackson's place in albuquerque.

[Wayfaring]

in his ufc jammies ...
You have ufc jammies? pics or it didn't happen :D

[Lucas]

throwing: my two cents

timing, balance, momentum, force, leverage, all of these come into play to one degree or another during the execution of a throw. and more.

when your opponent is resisting your atempts to offbalance him, is countring your attempts at using different leverages, and is not providing you the correcting momentum to steal, you will rely more so on strenth of force to help to create the ideal throwing situation.

a non compliant opponent will be expecting you to use technique to overcome him, and will be doing likewise. he will be looking to stuff and counter ever thing you do. you will have to create openings.

when you cannot use a strike to set up a throw, you are going to have to create the set up in another fashion. often standing grappling from the clinch force will be used back and forth, side to side, up and down to look for a weakness to then apply proper technique.

its a balance act. yin yang if you want. there will always be, to one degree or another, all factors of movement and manipulation in a resisting match to throw an opponent.

even when you have a compliant partner, depending on the throw, muscular contraction and force is always used. even if its minimal it is there. sometimes more so, depending on the situation.

its not black and white.

[goju]

yeah thats what im pretty much sayying of course there some force evolved but the intention was too use minimum force to achieve the maximum result like aikido

[goju]

was that up at nate marquardt's place in denver? i heard he was up there before he went down to greg jackson's place in albuquerque.
no thats was over at t's ko
i think all of the guys from there train over at nates and vice versa if im correct

[Kansuke]

Strength matters. It is ONE of the things that matter. When and how to use more or less force relative to what your opponent is doing is the point. If you try to use more force when you shouldn't you will walk right into something. If you need to use force but don't have any you will get tossed around like a rag doll.

[Frost]

mate cool it with your im not a real this or i dont train hard for all i know your just some teenager sitting in his ufc jammies who claims he trains as well so if your going to act like a idiot with these little jabs i suggest you take them else where:D

Fair enough you are right you never know why you are talking to on the net :)

"lol so do explain to me why standing joint locks are in so many martial arts if they dont work please do enlighten me because im curious to know your brilliant explanation for why they were added but dont work:D(this should be fun)"

Different period of history different context and time. I wasn’t there who knows why they were added?

I suspect the majority of these moves were created in a period of time when armour was worn AND weapons such as swords were carried. you needed to control the wrist of an opponent before he could draw his weapon and thus lots of movements based around wrist and arm grabs were developed, (and from there various standing locks.) Also I suspect the wearing of armour aided in standing locks as it inhibited your opponent’s ability to move swiftly or quickly retract his arm/weapon and allowed you to control him better.

Why they are still practised now? Like a lot of things in traditional styles I suspect they are practised out of respect to the founders of the style rather than because they are still of practical use, times change, but people still cling to the past.


My question to you is why if the standing locks are in so may arts do we rarely if ever see them being used effectively? If they are as you said in one of your posts a more efficient and effective means of control and taking someone down than simply hugging them close and falling to the ground with them why is there so little evidence of them being used, in fights, in grappling competitions and in control of suspect situations?

[Lucas]

standing locks are just too tricky of a beast to be able to successfully pull off on a resisting opponent for a fair margin of the times attempted. its just a bad gamble to put your eggs in that basket. speaking from a modern standpoint.

also note that a standing lock should be quick and end in a break, generally followd by a sweep/takedown/throw. they werent developed to be applied to allow for a tap out. they are meant to destroy the joint. namely the elbow. you take out an elbow and that arm is useless. even in armor the elbow joint is still at risk. well unless maybe your talking full plate linked western crusader armor. but chinese armor wasnt built like that. it was sectional.

as for law enforcement, they have guns, and back up. you see a lot of standing locks used by law enforcement specialists(generally the same 2 or 3), but often you will see them having back up help, or their suspect is not really in a position to resist thouroughly, ie: weak, intoxicated, etc.

edit: also note that when an officer applies a standing lock, genearlly thats followed up to the ground, wall, or squad car, to apply the cuffs. doesnt generally stay standing.

if an officers suspects that hey cant physically restrain someone, thats when they use the gun and have you lie down face first on the ground. you run, they tazer/chase tackle.

now we've seen a few standing submissions in modern MMA, but those are less common than high kick KO's. ya they happen, but most people dont train them enough to utilize them in the ring, because frankly they arent made for that.

[goju]

yep what lucas said largely is great about them
further people over commit to them you have t o be able to fluidly transition to something else if the lock attempt is failed which most people wont do
also of course striking helps to aid in the lock being that in can damage your opponent and prevent him realizing what your doing
and as lucas noted the general idea of the lock was to break alimb or tear the muscle not to get them to tap out
the best time to aply a lock is when some one is trying to grab you like a clinch forexample or they are trying to grab your clothing:D

[Knifefighter]

they werent developed to be applied to allow for a tap out. they are meant to destroy the joint. namely the elbow.
Ground submissions weren't developed to get the tap. They were developed to break the joint. However, it just so happens that, since they allow for so much control, they also allow the option of the tap.

[Knifefighter]

the best time to aply a lock is when some one is trying to grab you like a clinch forexample or they are trying to grab your clothing:D
If that was the case, you should have no problem doing an NHB match against a BJJ guy, right? Because all you will have to do is apply your standing joint lock when he tries to grab you, right?

[Lucas]

Ground submissions weren't developed to get the tap. They were developed to break the joint. However, it just so happens that, since they allow for so much control, they also allow the option of the tap.

definately. this of course is why we see relatively no standing submissions in mma. sure some, but its a much safer route for both parties to take it to the ground where theres so much more control possible. there's just too much freedom of movement standing to safely apply the lock.

a good example is how many accidental breaks/tears/hyperextentions that happen on the ground where there is so much more control. and thats on the ground! just immagine the ammount of damage that would happen on a regular basis if people trained standing locks realistically :eek:

[goju]

if you watch proper chin na applied like yang jwing mings for example the locks are painful enough to make you stand on your tip toes so there isnt gonna be much fighting back and if there is then the next route would be to snap it
another thing also to take into consideration is alot of standing joint locks that are taught are crap and are not realisitc take bjj's standing locks for example i personal like bjj but i think their standing submission they have are some of the lousiest locks ive ever seen

[goju]

If that was the case, you should have no problem doing an NHB match against a BJJ guy, right? Because all you will have to do is apply your standing joint lock when he tries to grab you, right?
nope and if the lock fails then just punch him or do something else :D

[Knifefighter]

definately. this of course is why we see relatively no standing submissions in mma. sure some, but its a much safer route for both parties to take it to the ground where theres so much more control possible. there's just too much freedom of movement standing to safely apply the lock.

a good example is how many accidental breaks/tears/hyperextentions that happen on the ground where there is so much more control. and thats on the ground! just immagine the ammount of damage that would happen on a regular basis if people trained standing locks realistically :eek:

Not the case at all. I can tell you with impunity that every single MMA fighter and submission grappler would love it if standing locks actually worked a decent percentage of the time.

Safety has nothing to do with it. If they worked we'd be using them all the time.

If they worked AND were as dangerous as you say, they would be illegal in competitions.

The fact is, neither of those is true.

[Knifefighter]

nope and if the lock fails then just punch him or do something else :D
So, you'd be OK with that NHB match then?

[Lucas]

Not the case at all. I can tell you with impunity that every single MMA fighter and submission grappler would love it if standing locks actually worked a decent percentage of the time.

Safety has nothing to do with it. If they worked we'd be using them all the time.

If they worked AND were as dangerous as you say, they would be illegal in competitions.

The fact is, neither of those is true.

ya, ok, that makes sense to me. my question is how many mma fighters do put in a good amount of time training them? for instance, do people not put much time into them because they are relatively inneffective compared to ground work, or are they inneffetive because not many people have focused on them to the point they can make it work more often in competition.

dont get me wrong, i understand the strategic aspects of why one wouldnt waste time on standing locks, especially in a competative world where the time you spend on your bread and butter is whats going to give you your edge in the ring, i guess what im asking is that, in your opinion and or experience, do you think hypothetically speaking if someone were to make standing locks a core portion of their training, do you think they would show a higher degree of success in competition with these types of techniques? im pretty sure that wont and hasnt happened, but hypothetically speaking. :D

standing locks always seemed a bit riskier to me to train at full speed with full resistance, it just seems like a recipie for accidental damage on a regular basis. thats why i figured standing locks are on average trained compliant and often slow and very controlled.

[goju]

So, you'd be OK with that NHB match then?
lol now your backing out again dale you agreed to a stand up bareknuckle match
hell we can go till one of us gets ko'd or cant move anymore if you want i have no problem with that
i have the feeling your shying away from it because as ive heard on here your stand up skill are lacking considerably
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

ya, ok, that makes sense to me. my question is how many mma fighters do put in a good amount of time training them? for instance, do people not put much time into them because they are relatively inneffective compared to ground work, or are they inneffetive because not many people have focused on them to the point they can make it work more often in competition.

dont get me wrong, i understand the strategic aspects of why one wouldnt waste time on standing locks, especially in a competative world where the time you spend on your bread and butter is whats going to give you your edge in the ring, i guess what im asking is that, in your opinion and or experience, do you think hypothetically speaking if someone were to make standing locks a core portion of their training, do you think they would show a higher degree of success in competition with these types of techniques? im pretty sure that wont and hasnt happened, but hypothetically speaking. :D

standing locks always seemed a bit riskier to me to train at full speed with full resistance, it just seems like a recipie for accidental damage on a regular basis. thats why i figured standing locks are on average trained compliant and often slow and very controlled.

Standing locks put you in a very precarious position whiel standing, you have commited both hands to ONE limb, leaving they other limbs to do what they please whiel your ability to defend is being limited by your attempt to work a standing submission/control technique.
Most MMA who focus on the high percentage moves just won't "waste" the time trying to make a move work when there are so many other that need less trying.
Its the law of deminishing returns.

[couch]

Standing locks put you in a very precarious position whiel standing, you have commited both hands to ONE limb, leaving they other limbs to do what they please whiel your ability to defend is being limited by your attempt to work a standing submission/control technique.
Most MMA who focus on the high percentage moves just won't "waste" the time trying to make a move work when there are so many other that need less trying.
Its the law of deminishing returns.

Exactly what I was going to write.

A lot of MMA practitioners try and get into the gym 5 times a week for a few hours at a time when they are amateur. So the format is usually: 2x/week Muay Thai, 2x/week Grappling, 1x/week Wrestling/Takedown

When you have limited time, you do high percentage stuff that has worked over the years. If I only have 15 mins, I won't be doing my forms - I'll be hitting the heavy bag and working on striking more than anything.

Best,
K

[Lucas]

makes complete sense.

do you think that the times we've seen standing locks, these are generally impromptu and not part of the training regime?

[sanjuro_ronin]

makes complete sense.

do you think that the times we've seen standing locks, these are generally impromptu and not part of the training regime?

I think at one pint standing grappling was very popular, think clinch wrestling with locks.
Many of the bunkai in karate are COUNTERS to grappling attacks or attempted grabs, far more than counter to strikes.

[Frost]

if you watch proper chin na applied like yang jwing mings for example the locks are painful enough to make you stand on your tip toes so there isnt gonna be much fighting back and if there is then the next route would be to snap it
another thing also to take into consideration is alot of standing joint locks that are taught are crap and are not realisitc take bjj's standing locks for example i personal like bjj but i think their standing submission they have are some of the lousiest locks ive ever seen


How do you know his stuff is good?

I have never seen yangs jwing mings locks demonstrated on a resisting uncooperative opponent can you point me to where I can see this? I ask because every standing lock once locked in can be painful, it’s getting them locked in on someone trying to hurt you that’s the hard part and I have never seen yang show this against someone not a student.

The only time I have seen them to be effective is after several people have taken down and subdued someone, got them under control and then applied the locks, usually in a two on one situation.

Another question is why is so much of the standing locks taught in your opinion crap; surely to have been passed down from teacher to student over and over they must have a good use? :)

[Frost]

ya, ok, that makes sense to me. my question is how many mma fighters do put in a good amount of time training them? for instance, do people not put much time into them because they are relatively inneffective compared to ground work, or are they inneffetive because not many people have focused on them to the point they can make it work more often in competition.

dont get me wrong, i understand the strategic aspects of why one wouldnt waste time on standing locks, especially in a competative world where the time you spend on your bread and butter is whats going to give you your edge in the ring, i guess what im asking is that, in your opinion and or experience, do you think hypothetically speaking if someone were to make standing locks a core portion of their training, do you think they would show a higher degree of success in competition with these types of techniques? im pretty sure that wont and hasnt happened, but hypothetically speaking. :D.

Something to mention is that a lot of MMA fighters, especially those that have been a round a while have come from a traditional background, at least that seems to be the case here in the UK. Every gym I know of has 5 or 6 guys that have done traditional arts, (and thus have practised standing locks at one time or another.) So its not that the MMA fighters have not trained in these techniques, its that when they try to apply them in a realistic manner they find them almost impossible to pull off so then they go back to the high percentage stuff.

"standing locks always seemed a bit riskier to me to train at full speed with full resistance, it just seems like a recipie for accidental damage on a regular basis. thats why i figured standing locks are on average trained compliant and often slow and very controlled"

A lot of techniques, neck cranks, heel hooks etc are practised even though they can be more dangerous than other submissions because they work. As knifefighter said the notion fighters would shy away from a technique because of the risk to their opponent is wrong, they shy away from techniques they find hard to pull off in a realistic environment

[grasshopper 2.0]

I think I've said this before - such standing locks, etc are only to be pulled off when the opportunity presents itself (eg arm exposed) and cannot be forced into a situation where the standing lock can be performed. The guys that fight/compete make an effort to keep hands and arms in, coiled and not exposed so the opportunity of such locks aren't even there to begin with. If its not there, u can't perform it.

In mma calibre of fighting such opportinities would be so minute that u wouldn't even see an attempt at a standing lock as no arm would be exposed for such an opportunity

[Frost]

But don't you think that in most cases this will be always be the situation? Even drunk college lads who have only watched a few boxing matches will mostly keep there hands up and close and not leave them hanging out for someone to grab hold of, and if you do manage to get hold of one limb they normally have another hand free to hit you with and fight like help to get you off them.

So why bother to still spend time on training these things if they only work on substandard fighter and then only very rarely?

[goju]

when you punch or try to grab your arm i exposed
the chinese brought china in the battle feild because the mongolians were expert grappplers and they used china to counter their grappling
ill try to find an article on i found yesterday again on it hang on:D

[goju]

Kung Fu Chin Na Grappling Basics
by Noah Knapp
Excerpted from Kung Fu Grappling


Chin Na, or the study of joint, tendon, and muscle manipulation, is considered to be the true essence of all Kung Fu grappling. It is the practical application and ability of exploiting the body's limitations. There are many parts make up Chin Na training and all are a simply a piece of the solution and therefore all must be used in conjunction for true expertise.

Natural Torque


Every one of the joints in the body have a limited range of free movement. The term Natural Torque refers to the furthest extent that any one of these joints can be taken before catastrophic failure is caused in the joint. In other words, natural torque is the most a joint can be locked before breakage occurs. A small application of pressure past that point can render you opponent completely nullified.


Natural torque is an extremely important part of both Chin Na and Kung Fu grappling on the whole. The range of possible usage varies only by the discretion of the person performing the lock. Natural torque may mean gently, though thoroughly, controlling an opponent, or instead utilized to completely destroy one of an attacker's joints. Thus, through the course of the chapters, we will observe all appropriate offensive and defensive applications throughout the body.


Core Seeking


There is a practice throughout Kung Fu's training which reminds us to prepare for when things go wrong, not if. This is a very important lesson to remember during all training and grappling applications are no different. What if a lock doesn't work? What if a hold is released? What if the opponent is able to slip our grasp? These and many other possible situations can and do occur everyday to even the most experienced fi ghters. The difference between victory and defeat may be as simple as knowing what to do next.


It is not always necessary or even advisable to remove, reset, and resume if an application goes awry. Rather, knowing how to continue and move forward from a missed attempt can lead you to regain your advantage.




During a grappling attack, the human body's continuous system of muscles, ligaments, and joints can offer relief by simply releasing pressure from one area to another. While it is true that each individual part may only be able to offer a small bit of relief, when used as a whole, the body can offer many opportunities for escape. For example, a tightened wrist may fi nd ease if the elbow is rotated. Having said this, why only control an opponent's hand or arm when you can instead choose to control the entire person? And




And what if a break does occur? Arguments have long been made that you might entirely subdue an adversary by properly manipulating even their little fi nger, but what if this weak section of the body fails?


Honestly, any experienced fi ghter or grappler will understand that just because one part of their opponent's body may be broken, that the other sections still work fi ne. An opponent's fi nger may be completely destroyed during a fi ght, but that doesn't mean that they will have any intention of stopping their aggression. The only way to assure that you have completely subdued your opponent is to remove any chance they could have for further movement. Therefore, while it is possible to become victorious with anything from wrist locks to knee locks, it is always advisable to seek control of the entire opponent, not just part of them.


Knowing this, it is essential to continuously manipulate your opponent until submission is assured. Even if the event occurs that one attempt at a manipulation is lost, moving inward toward the core of the body and attempting a lock on the next possible joint may create the solution. Honestly, by doing this we are almost guaranteed to fi nd another opportunity waiting. The trick is to always move inward and toward the core of the body.


The above article is copyrighted by the author. All rights reserved.

[goju]

Chin Na For Cops
Chin Na is the Helping Hand That Police Officers Need to Make Thier Jobs Less Deadly









Page 1 of 2
Sir, can you please step out of your vehicle?”

Every day police officers are making “hands-on” contact with thousands of individuals: field interviews, searches, domestic calls at 4 a.m. Each situation requires a response with the appropriate manner and appropriate amount of force.

“Too many times, officers are in a position to use deadly force, because they don’t have any tools available to them,” explains former Burbank Chief of Police, Dave Newsham, who in 1992 brought in kung-fu grandmaster Don Baird to head the department’s defensive tactics program. “Any opportunity, we try and give our officers another option.”

Chin na provides police officers just that, because it’s a system of seizing and catching joints, tendons, ligaments, allowing the user to control an opponent’s body. Often gentle although sometimes severe, these techniques can create immense pain when applied correctly. By manipulating a finger or arm in different ways, a police officer can use the suspect’s body as leverage to control or arrest him.

China’s Grappling Art

Chin na isn’t an individual style, but an aspect of nearly all kung-fu styles in China. The word “chin” means “to seize or trap” and “na” means “to lock or break.”

For over 1,000 years, shaolin monks have trained in chin na, perfecting and honing techniques to the quality they are today. “It’s one thing to have techniques that were made up yesterday; it’s another to have ones that withstood the test of time in the most violent situations,” says Baird.

Based on more than just techniques, this system teaches the student principles of body mechanics and patience. You learn how to capture different parts of the body and the correct force required to be effective. The distance between you and the opponent, spatial orientation, intuition, reading an opponent through muscle shifting and body movement are only a few things chin na focuses on.

“To this day, chin na is one of the most effective training methods for Chinese military and police officers,” notes Baird. What made this system appealing was the ability to disable opponents without causing unnecessary harm. Our bodies are only meant to bend or twist at certain angles before feeling discomfort and then pain. When you grab and then manipulate a part of a person’s body in the correct way, you gain control over the rest of the body.




The suspect tries to grab the officer’s gun from behind.


The officer turns and pins the suspect’s hand to the holstered gun, kinking the suspect’s wrist.


An inside shot of the parry and wrist pressure



This photo shows the officer’s hand slipping to a grab/seize.


The officer turns further and prepares to lock/break the suspect’s arm.


The officer locks/breaks the suspect’s arm (this move can also lead to a strong takedown).



The Middle Ground

Police officers are in constant contact with people and are exposed to various kinds of resistance. To successfully handle that resistance and complete their sworn duty, an officer needs tools other than his service revolver and PR-24.

“Chin na is a wonderful middle ground area,” maintains Baird. “What better system to use in police work than chin na when its very definition is to seize and control and a police officer’s orders are to control the suspect?”

When arresting suspects, police are always aware of the “Force Continuum.” This is the series of steps between the initial contact with an individual, like asking someone to step out of a car, to lethal force, which is a gun being drawn or a baton pulled. Officers need more options in this middle ground and chin na provides that. By having more choices, officers can resolve difficult situations before the encounter escalates to a greater violence.* Police officers have thousands of rules they must follow when they enter a “hands-on” situation. Their actions could be scrutinized by their supervisor, a city attorney, a district attorney and even a civil court. If a department doesn’t approve of how an officer handled a situation, the officer could be suspended or terminated from his job. He can also be prosecuted if it’s shown he used improper force. Suspects often sue the officer, as well.

But anything goes with a suspect—they can hit, fight, even kill a cop with no pressure from the people around him. “Chin na gives police officers a middle ground where he can use appropriate techniques that keep him safe but also respects the suspect’s rights,” notes Baird.

These techniques provide ways to neutralize the situation without causing unnecessary or any greater harm to the suspect, while also ensuring the police officer’s safety. “Chin na, in a way, allows the suspect to dictate the amount of force an officer uses,” explains Baird. “The suspect is always in control of his own safety.”

When a suspect complies, the officer can easily do his job. But when there’s resistance and the suspect becomes difficult, the officer is placed in a situation where he must make more aggressive choices.

“The officer can restrain the suspect or if absolutely necessary, hurt the suspect more to force compliance,” Baird relates. This includes throws that would land the suspect on the ground in a position for cuffing. “Remember, officers of the law do not have a choice. They are sworn to do their job and if they don’t, for lack of technique or fear, they will be held accountable as the law dictates.”

[grasshopper 2.0]

Well it really comes down to what you want to train or feel like training....or should be training as per a given curriculum. I'm not saying the opportunity for an armlock will never be there - it very well could be..especially if he's half way knocked out and really not "there' and his arms are exposed.

On a side note...why do boxers skip rope..it's not like they'll ever skip rope their opponent to death in a ring...




But don't you think that in most cases this will be always be the situation? Even drunk college lads who have only watched a few boxing matches will mostly keep there hands up and close and not leave them hanging out for someone to grab hold of, and if you do manage to get hold of one limb they normally have another hand free to hit you with and fight like help to get you off them.

So why bother to still spend time on training these things if they only work on substandard fighter and then only very rarely?

[Frost]

Well it really comes down to what you want to train or feel like training....or should be training as per a given curriculum. I'm not saying the opportunity for an armlock will never be there - it very well could be..especially if he's half way knocked out and really not "there' and his arms are exposed.

On a side note...why do boxers skip rope..it's not like they'll ever skip rope their opponent to death in a ring...

boxers skip rope as part of their S and C program, to help with footwork and conditioning. They continue using the rope because it has been proved over the years to be useful, no doubt if it was not useful they would stop doing it.

[Frost]

when you punch or try to grab your arm i exposed
the chinese brought china in the battle feild because the mongolians were expert grappplers and they used china to counter their grappling
ill try to find an article on i found yesterday again on it hang on:D

your arm is only exposed if you leave it out there, not too many people outside of kungfu films do this anymore, they retract to cover themselves. likewise with the grabs, its one thing to work them on someone holding your arm and allowing you to do the move, quite another when the same someone is hitting you with the other hand.

[goju]

your arm is only exposed if you leave it out there, not too many people outside of kungfu films do this anymore, they retract to cover themselves. likewise with the grabs, its one thing to work them on someone holding your arm and allowing you to do the move, quite another when the same someone is hitting you with the other hand.

lol its like talking to abrick wall you really have no idea what chin na is
you honestly think its just a simple as a b c its stand up wrestling not just simply a person tries to grab and you do this step and this and that and sumbit them

theres counters to joint locks and theres counters to punching an kicking while you do it in the art its not as cut and dry as you think as i said it was used to fight the mogols who were renown for their grapplingt he cinses knew someone wouldnt just stand there like a tard and let you manipulate their joint with out putting up a fight

chin na is the same as ground grappling you try different moves and manipulate your opponent to set them up for the submisson

and when some one punches they still extend their arms there fore there is an oppurtunity to grab the joint china works along the same principles as aikido and hapkido locks

[Kansuke]

you honestly think its just a simple as a b c its stand up wrestling




And what do you know about stand up wrestling?

[goju]

And what do you know about stand up wrestling?
how them paint chips working out for you ? tasty?

[Frost]

lol its like talking to abrick wall you really have no idea what chin na is

Let me see over a decade in chinese martials arts, a senior student of one of the most well known teachers of kung fu in the UK and was asked to help demonstrate chin na once at a national tournent here in the UK….. You are right I have no idea what it is :o)

"you honestly think its just a simple as a b c its stand up wrestling not just simply a person tries to grab and you do this step and this and that and sumbit them

theres counters to joint locks and theres counters to punching an kicking while you do it in the art its not as cut and dry as you think as i said it was used to fight the mogols who were renown for their grapplingt he cinses knew someone wouldnt just stand there like a tard and let you manipulate their joint with out putting up a fight"

How do you know it was used to fight the mogols? one of those articles you posted was written by a guy who is a LA bouncer and master of drunken kung fu (not a historical scolar) and I didn't see and historical texts cited as evidence did you?

Also even if they wee used against the Mongols how do you know that these are they same locks as they used as the ones you are being taught?

"chin na is the same as ground grappling you try different moves and manipulate your opponent to set them up for the submisson"

And this is much harder to do as many have said because standing there are simply too many degrees of movement for your opponent. On the ground you limit his movement by pining him between your body and the ground, standing he can simply more too much


"and when some one punches they still extend their arms there fore there is an oppurtunity to grab the joint china works along the same principles as aikido and hapkido locks"

Same principle yes, and in practise it works just as badly

Ever read angry white pyjamas? there is a story in there about when the head of the top aikido school died and all the main teachers from around the world went to the funeral and then out on the town to celebrate him life.

Long story cut short they got into a fight with the doormen of a club and no aikido was used it was all slow swinging punches and man hugging. If the best instructors in the world can't be seen to pull these techniques off in the real world who the hell can? And this story was related to the author by those who were actually in the fight

[Frost]

And what do you know about stand up wrestling?

Be fair this is the internet you don't have to have any actual knowledge to argue an opinion :)

[Kansuke]

how them paint chips working out for you ? tasty?


Yeah, nothing, as I thought. Stupid little punk.

[goju]

Let me see over a decade in chinese martials arts, a senior student of one of the most well known teachers of kung fu in the UK and was asked to help demonstrate chin na once at a national tournent here in the UK….. You are right I have no idea what it is :o)

"you honestly think its just a simple as a b c its stand up wrestling not just simply a person tries to grab and you do this step and this and that and sumbit them

theres counters to joint locks and theres counters to punching an kicking while you do it in the art its not as cut and dry as you think as i said it was used to fight the mogols who were renown for their grapplingt he cinses knew someone wouldnt just stand there like a tard and let you manipulate their joint with out putting up a fight"

How do you know it was used to fight the mogols? one of those articles you posted was written by a guy who is a LA bouncer and master of drunken kung fu (not a historical scolar) and I didn't see and historical texts cited as evidence did you?

Also even if they wee used against the Mongols how do you know that these are they same locks as they used as the ones you are being taught?

there has been chin na locks preserved for hundreds upon hundreds of years and there are new ones being created in the modren age as well i beleive all together there is around 800 known locks

"chin na is the same as ground grappling you try different moves and manipulate your opponent to set them up for the submisson"

And this is much harder to do as many have said because standing there are simply too many degrees of movement for your opponent. On the ground you limit his movement by pining him between your body and the ground, standing he can simply more too much
indeed thats why many styes that have chin na add strikes to them when the break is attempted like eagle claw it is easier to apply a technique on stunned opponent than a fresh one

"and when some one punches they still extend their arms there fore there is an oppurtunity to grab the joint china works along the same principles as aikido and hapkido locks"

Same principle yes, and in practise it works just as badly

Ever read angry white pyjamas? there is a story in there about when the head of the top aikido school died and all the main teachers from around the world went to the funeral and then out on the town to celebrate him life.

Long story cut short they got into a fight with the doormen of a club and no aikido was used it was all slow swinging punches and man hugging. If the best instructors in the world can't be seen to pull these techniques off in the real world who the hell can? And this story was related to the author by those who were actually in the fight

also its used as the same principles grapplers use against strikers:) when they punch if they miss their arms are exposed momentarily leaving them open for the tackle. this is used all the time in mma since the beggining
as for the aikido thing anger and an actual fight can make any one forget what they know ive seen this in numerous fights sparring matches etc etc with tons of different styles where the two people facing off just resort to wild swinging and forget what they know or were taught

[goju]

Yeah, nothing, as I thought. Stupid little punk.
lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Frost]

also its used as the same principles grapplers use against strikers:) when they punch if they miss their arms are exposed momentarily leaving them open for the tackle. this is used all the time in mma since the beggining
as for the aikido thing anger and an actual fight can make any one forget what they know ive seen this in numerous fights sparring matches etc etc with tons of different styles where the two people facing off just resort to wild swinging and forget what they know or were taught

Its one thing to enter and hit the body (which is relatively large and comparatively stationary) and another to catch a moving limb. Notice they try to grab the body or the legs (which are again a large target which does not have that much mobility when planted). When was the last time you saw someone in MMA catch a arm and hit a stranding lock or aikido throw?

true and the more impractical and fine motor the move is the easier it is to forget. I have also seen people (usually in their first fight) forget all their techniques as the adrenaline hits them, the difference is I have also seen people pull of throws, tight punching combinations and good ground work in fights as well. And I can point you to various videos of these being done in frights.... can you do the same with aikido techniques?

But you miss my point is if some of the best aikido teachers in the world can’t pull these techniques off in a fight how can anyone have a hope of doing it? It would be like Couture, rampage, Henderson and griffin hitting a nightclub getting into a fight and resorting to wild swinging punches and missing throws and clinches again and again, somehow I don't see this happening do you?

[goju]

generally the catch is attemopted at the end of the swing when its dead
and most standing arm locks and aikido throws are small joint manipulations fella and as youd think youd know those are illegal in mma:D


actually i wouldnt be suprised if they would there did erupt a brawl in an night club in london with a few ufc stars including chuck liddel and it was just a messy brawl of haymakers

[Yoshiyahu]

Yeah, nothing, as I thought. Stupid little punk.

Please enlignten Us on what you know about standing up grappling.

[anerlich]

also its used as the same principles grapplers use against strikers when they punch if they miss their arms are exposed momentarily leaving them open for the tackle. this is used all the time in mma since the beggining

It's not that the punch exposes their arm, it's that the punch can be slipped and the clinch achieved on extension, or the shoot can be timed to match the punch's retraction.

It's not the exposure of the arm, but the exposure of the body, that the punch allows. No one's grabbing that punch out of the air except in movies.


most standing arm locks and aikido throws are small joint manipulations fella and as youd think youd know those are illegal in mma

Finger and toe locks are illegal in MMA, wrist locks are legal. Most aikido throws do NOT rely on finger manipulations and would be perfectly legal in MMA. The only throws you can't do involve hard slams to the neck and head.

http://www.bjjnews.org/TUF/mma_rules_regulations.pdf

[Knifefighter]

Good luck trying to break someone's finger while he is busy smashing your face in with his other hand.

[goju]

you can break some ones finger with one hand you dont need to use both your hands to do it and tie yourself up

[goju]

and again lets go over the point that chin na isnt about submitting some one the idea was to break the joint
of course some one can get out f it when your just standing there twisting their arm but if you snap it thats a different manner

[Frost]

It's not that the punch exposes their arm, it's that the punch can be slipped and the clinch achieved on extension, or the shoot can be timed to match the punch's retraction.

It's not the exposure of the arm, but the exposure of the body, that the punch allows. No one's grabbing that punch out of the air except in movies.



Finger and toe locks are illegal in MMA, wrist locks are legal. Most aikido throws do NOT rely on finger manipulations and would be perfectly legal in MMA. The only throws you can't do involve hard slams to the neck and head.

http://www.bjjnews.org/TUF/mma_rules_regulations.pdf

Umm what he said, punches are slipped and bypassed to gain entry to the clinch arms are not grabbed.

Wrist locks and throws are legal, its just that they do not work please again show us instances of them working in a realistic environment.

[Frost]

generally the catch is attemopted at the end of the swing when its dead
and most standing arm locks and aikido throws are small joint manipulations fella and as youd think youd know those are illegal in mma:D


actually i wouldnt be suprised if they would there did erupt a brawl in an night club in london with a few ufc stars including chuck liddel and it was just a messy brawl of haymakers

who are you sparring? I have never sparred anyone who just leaves their arm out dead at the end of a punch, they retract them to avoid getting knocked out.

If its the same one I am thinking about then lee Murray knocked out Tito with some lovely crisp boxing, no messy haymakers insight

[Frost]

and again lets go over the point that chin na isnt about submitting some one the idea was to break the joint
of course some one can get out f it when your just standing there twisting their arm but if you snap it thats a different manner


Oh please no not the “it’s for breaks not submission argument again” this is probably older than you.

All locks are meant to be done as breaks its just the good ones allow you to have such control over your opponents body that you can apply them slowly if you want to.

But anyway I am not arguing they are easy to get out of because you are just standing there holding them, I am arguing they are next to impossible to actually get on anybody, so the whole they are for breaks argument is void if you can’t get in the position in the first place!

[Frost]

Good luck trying to break someone's finger while he is busy smashing your face in with his other hand.

Give him his due he might actually manage to break them if he works at it hard enough, of course he will take a lot of punishment with the free hand as you point out.....but then what after the break will the fight be over?

Hands up those who have broken their fingers (or dislocated them) in sparring or competition and continued on? These breaks are not fight enders when the adrenaline is flowing, hell most of the time you don't realise its happened until it’s pointed out to you

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've had a few incidental dislocations in Judo, we all have, no big deal, you keep on with the randori.
Only had it done on purpose to me once in a VT match, he dislocated my ring finger on the right hand, I KO'd him with a few left elbows, set the finger and that was that.
Had it wrapped for a few days, no biggie.
Adrenaline more than handles the discomfort.

[Kansuke]

Please enlignten Us on what you know about standing up grappling.



32+ years of wrestling.

[goju]

Oh please no not the “it’s for breaks not submission argument again” this is probably older than you.

All locks are meant to be done as breaks its just the good ones allow you to have such control over your opponents body that you can apply them slowly if you want to.

But anyway I am not arguing they are easy to get out of because you are just standing there holding them, I am arguing they are next to impossible to actually get on anybody, so the whole they are for breaks argument is void if you can’t get in the position in the first place!

wel its the truth the idea was to break or damage a muscle china na is old they didnt have a referee to break it up or the option to tap out
why as soemone is trying to grab you the oppurtunity is there its harder to do with a punch yes but the main idea was for chin na to be used against a type of grabbing or grappling manuever that is attempted

[goju]

Give him his due he might actually manage to break them if he works at it hard enough, of course he will take a lot of punishment with the free hand as you point out.....but then what after the break will the fight be over?

Hands up those who have broken their fingers (or dislocated them) in sparring or competition and continued on? These breaks are not fight enders when the adrenaline is flowing, hell most of the time you don't realise its happened until it’s pointed out to you
no you dont not have to break something as delicate as a finger with both hands its easy enough to do it with one unless your grip is p iss weak

[goju]

who are you sparring? I have never sparred anyone who just leaves their arm out dead at the end of a punch, they retract them to avoid getting knocked out.

If its the same one I am thinking about then lee Murray knocked out Tito with some lovely crisp boxing, no messy haymakers insight
lol no matter how you want to see it it is the same principle as grapplers use to fight strikers yes the legs and body are exposed but thats because the punch is dead for a second or two after they swing and miss thus leaving them exposed

if you watch chin na done properly such as demonstrated by yang jwing ming it is done extremely fast in fact his locks are applieed as fast as a grappler would shoot in after he slips a punch

[anerlich]

Wrist locks and throws are legal, its just that they do not work please again show us instances of them working in a realistic environment.

I've trained at a BJJ school with a guy that was fiendishly good at wrist locks and related throws.

Roy Harris also seems to use them effectively, though not necessarily in the standup situation being argued about here.

I agree that these skills are quite rare, though, and with the first guy most of his more regular training partners seemed to have developed counters and defenses against that part of his game.

[anerlich]

Hands up those who have broken their fingers (or dislocated them) in sparring or competition and continued on?

No fingers so far, I've broken and dislocated several toes. This happens pretty regularly.

[goju]

i dont know if this is a good vid i just googled aikido streefighting and cam eup with this the comments said it was awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7yn0XOSMQ

[Frost]

I've trained at a BJJ school with a guy that was fiendishly good at wrist locks and related throws.

Roy Harris also seems to use them effectively, though not necessarily in the standup situation being argued about here.

I agree that these skills are quite rare, though, and with the first guy most of his more regular training partners seemed to have developed counters and defenses against that part of his game.


Yep my grappling coach has some nasty wrist locks from inside the guard putting the wrist against his or your own body, I have not seen them hit standing up and simply making a fist with the grabbed hands seems to nullify most wrist locks.

[Frost]

lol no matter how you want to see it it is the same principle as grapplers use to fight strikers yes the legs and body are exposed but thats because the punch is dead for a second or two after they swing and miss thus leaving them exposed


No it’s not the same you are talking about waiting to try and catch the limb when it is extended and they have missed you, a grappler is looking to move as soon as the opponent’s basic defensive weapons (his hands and especially his elbows) are away from his body.

If I can get passed the elbow I have control of the body, that’s what I am looking for as a grappler, not the arms being locks out or the punch being dead. If I can get under your arm as you strike or move (and passed your elbows) your ability to defend the clinch is very limited

"if you watch chin na done properly such as demonstrated by yang jwing ming it is done extremely fast in fact his locks are applieed as fast as a grappler would shoot in after he slips a punch"

Please show me chin na being done properly, anyone can look good in a demonstration when they know what is coming, you keep bringing yang jwing ming up as an authority can you please show me using his stuff in an actual fight. (Or any of his students for that matter.) I ask not be look a **** or be confrontational but because I have seen done and been involved in some very good looking chin na demonstrations at national tournaments and I know for a fact the people doing the demos can’t make the stuff work in an actual fight

[Frost]

wel its the truth the idea was to break or damage a muscle china na is old they didnt have a referee to break it up or the option to tap out
why as soemone is trying to grab you the oppurtunity is there its harder to do with a punch yes but the main idea was for chin na to be used against a type of grabbing or grappling manuever that is attempted


The original judo challenges didn’t have refs either, lots of breaks there (and deaths as well) the difference is that we can still see those techniques being pulled off in competition, and if the ref is too slow or the opponent does not tap in time you still see breaks. So we know they are useful and work, where are all the chin na techniques in competitions so we can see how effective they are……..

We are back to the same old argument you and I keep having, if they are specifically designed and meant to be used in a grappling/grabbing situation why don’t we see them being pulled off anywhere where we see grappling? BJJ tournaments, no gi, adcc, When police and doorman get into grappling situations with suspects and are caught on CCTV? How come we don't see them anywhere on a regular basis?

[goju]

The original judo challenges didn’t have refs either, lots of breaks there (and deaths as well) the difference is that we can still see those techniques being pulled off in competition, and if the ref is too slow or the opponent does not tap in time you still see breaks. So we know they are useful and work, where are all the chin na techniques in competitions so we can see how effective they are……..

We are back to the same old argument you and I keep having, if they are specifically designed and meant to be used in a grappling/grabbing situation why don’t we see them being pulled off anywhere where we see grappling? BJJ tournaments, no gi, adcc, When police and doorman get into grappling situations with suspects and are caught on CCTV? How come we don't see them anywhere on a regular basis?
what do you mean why dont we see them millions of fights happen around the world and no one ever sees them thats a no brainer
and again they dont alow you to snap some ones arm if you deliberately try to do that your going to get disqualified even at the gym i trained at for mma they said if i compete i couldnt use the low kicks that are common in south chinese kung fu and karate because one no ones gonna wanna fight some one thats snapping their joint by kicking them low to the shins and more than likely youll get disqualified
the same applies to china if you deliabretly set out to damage some ones joint by snapping it youll be in trouble

[goju]

No it’s not the same you are talking about waiting to try and catch the limb when it is extended and they have missed you, a grappler is looking to move as soon as the opponent’s basic defensive weapons (his hands and especially his elbows) are away from his body.

If I can get passed the elbow I have control of the body, that’s what I am looking for as a grappler, not the arms being locks out or the punch being dead. If I can get under your arm as you strike or move (and passed your elbows) your ability to defend the clinch is very limited

"if you watch chin na done properly such as demonstrated by yang jwing ming it is done extremely fast in fact his locks are applieed as fast as a grappler would shoot in after he slips a punch"

Please show me chin na being done properly, anyone can look good in a demonstration when they know what is coming, you keep bringing yang jwing ming up as an authority can you please show me using his stuff in an actual fight. (Or any of his students for that matter.) I ask not be look a **** or be confrontational but because I have seen done and been involved in some very good looking chin na demonstrations at national tournaments and I know for a fact the people doing the demos can’t make the stuff work in an actual fight

yes and as you said the strike is away from the body and missed there fore its dead you just proved by point exactly

agin these are the people you know just because they cant pull it off doesnt mean it doesnt work. ive personal used china na sparring and i found it effective in the clinch the most so i have no doubt it works

[Frost]

what do you mean why dont we see them millions of fights happen around the world and no one ever sees them thats a no brainer
and again they dont alow you to snap some ones arm if you deliberately try to do that your going to get disqualified even at the gym i trained at for mma they said if i compete i couldnt use the low kicks that are common in south chinese kung fu and karate because one no ones gonna wanna fight some one thats snapping their joint by kicking them low to the shins and more than likely youll get disqualified
the same applies to china if you deliabretly set out to damage some ones joint by snapping it youll be in trouble

Oh no the “its too deadly to train or use in the ring argument has reared its head,” along with THE “its used all the time but just not in any fights that have been taped or any situations where it can be verified by film”

I can’t believe that in this day and age all these fights using chin na just happen to take place where no one has a video phone, no one takes along a video recorder, there is no cctv coverage and no crowds with internet access to let us know about it……:rolleyes:

[Frost]

yes and as you said the strike is away from the body and missed there fore its dead you just proved by point exactly

agin these are the people you know just because they cant pull it off doesnt mean it doesnt work. ive personal used china na sparring and i found it effective in the clinch the most so i have no doubt it works

if you really think what I am saying in any way proves your point then I think its best to leave this argument alone now:eek:

[YungChun]

All these things work or not based on many similar concepts.. In combat you break and smash.. Not lock and control..

Like WCK it depends on how they resist and these things work better or only work with contact, feel and applied pressure.. A lock or break depends on how they resist..

For example they resist by opening a joint, you then help them open that joint from feeling their resistance and break it....

For example they resist by closing a line, you then help them close that line from feeling their resistance and smash them on the other line that just opened....

Choosing what move is an illusion, plucking stuff out of the air is an illusion...

Close range is about the clash, resistance, energy and position; and training to fit in with the opponent in the moment and using the above conditions to do damage...

[Frost]

No argument from me about close range being about clash resistance, energy and position, I just think you are better working hits and throws here (in and out of the clinch), rather than looking for standing locks/breaks which are next to impossible to get unless you out number your opponent or he is half dead.

Now on the ground locks/breaks work much better because of your opponents limited freedom of movement, and there is lots of evidence backing up both my points above (in fights we see on TV, on you tube etc) and virtually non to support the other argument.

All the above has been argued to death on this thread by myself and several other people so I’ll think ill stop here.:)

[goju]

Oh no the “its too deadly to train or use in the ring argument has reared its head,” along with THE “its used all the time but just not in any fights that have been taped or any situations where it can be verified by film”

I can’t believe that in this day and age all these fights using chin na just happen to take place where no one has a video phone, no one takes along a video recorder, there is no cctv coverage and no crowds with internet access to let us know about it……:rolleyes:
how do you know they arent? recorded theres millions of video on youtube just because you havent seen them doesnt mean they dont exist
whos using the to deadly crap you cant break some ones arm in mma or any modern day competition end of story youll get disqualified

[goju]

if you really think what I am saying in any way proves your point then I think its best to leave this argument alone now:eek:
you said your self when the arm is extended thats when the grappler shoots thats the same way china is applied onece its missed and extended for a breif period of time it can be snapped

[monji112000]

you said your self when the arm is extended thats when the grappler shoots thats the same way china is applied onece its missed and extended for a brief period of time it can be snapped
what your not considering are the many variables that are created when you are standing, that are lessened when you are not. Anything is possible, but what is probable? you have to look at all the variables..
the biggest standing submission used in grappling and MMA is the guillotine.
why? because it eliminates allot of variables once applied. Even then with sweat, getting slammed, and lack of a good grip.. can turn it into nothing.
I like Chin na, and I like wrist locks.. but I prefer them on the ground. I have seen some interseting Chin na takedowns.. mostly they seemed like variations of Judo. Tai toshi, osotogari, and several sacrifice throws.

until you try these things in a competition, its hard to see things clearly..
just watch this video.. look at how sweaty those guys are .. how they attempt to get control of hands, neck ect.. how in the end the only thing he can get is the guys neck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkpn-ljv-wQ

[Lucas]

you guys ever watch any shuai jiao competitions or matches? plenty of chinese grappling there. lots of vids. look it up.

[monji112000]

you guys ever watch any shuai jiao competitions or matches? plenty of chinese grappling there. lots of vids. look it up.

I have been trying to see shuai jao competitions.. I have found only a few online. I'm pretty sure no submissions are aloud.. so ..

[sanjuro_ronin]

No other system advocates standing grappling more than aikido (arguably) and Aikido has competitions:
This one is a match between a "knife" attacker and an unarmed defender.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXmrx0vz16E

In competitive aikido most points and matches are won by a throw or a pin, even though joint locks are allowed.
As you can see, even to highly trained aikidokas have a "hard time" applying standing joint locks, even when strikes are NOT allowed.

Another, this is unarmed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQEOXJ4tPgc

[Yoshiyahu]

In actually fight. How do you use grappling to stop from getting knocked out?

How does one who only practies lets say Aikido,Judo and BJJ defeat a common thug. Lets say this thug is throwing his fist at your face as fast as he can. What do you do if you have no striking experience.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In actually fight. How do you use grappling to stop from getting knocked out?

How does one who only practies lets say Aikido,Judo and BJJ defeat a common thug. Lets say this thug is throwing his fist at your face as fast as he can. What do you do if you have no striking experience.

Are you actually asking a question or trying to make an (illl-informed) statement

[monji112000]

In actually fight. How do you use grappling to stop from getting knocked out?

How does one who only practies lets say Aikido,Judo and BJJ defeat a common thug. Lets say this thug is throwing his fist at your face as fast as he can. What do you do if you have no striking experience.

well the typical BJJ answer can some type of takedown , mount ect..
The problem with talking to BJJ guys is this strategy works well in some cases. You can often cover up, and close the distance, clinch,and go for some type of takedown. By coving up and quickly closing the distance you can take most strikes.. The problem is when other people are involved or when sharp things get involved. Allot of people win street fights this way, but that doesn't mean you can't get hurt if someone kicks you when your mounted on the guy.
A judoka would do something similar,..

You could just throw the guy and not try to wrestle with the guy.

[Yoshiyahu]

well the typical BJJ answer can some type of takedown , mount ect..
The problem with talking to BJJ guys is this strategy works well in some cases. You can often cover up, and close the distance, clinch,and go for some type of takedown. By coving up and quickly closing the distance you can take most strikes.. The problem is when other people are involved or when sharp things get involved. Allot of people win street fights this way, but that doesn't mean you can't get hurt if someone kicks you when your mounted on the guy.
A judoka would do something similar,..

You could just throw the guy and not try to wrestle with the guy.

What if the bumb your fighting pulls a knife or screw driver and attempts to plunged it in you. how would the take down and mount help you.

My other question is once you are in the mount posistion how do you finish the guy. How long does it take to finish him usually?

[Knifefighter]

What if the bumb your fighting pulls a knife or screw driver and attempts to plunged it in you. how would the take down and mount help you.

My other question is once you are in the mount posistion how do you finish the guy. How long does it take to finish him usually?

- Grappling is almost always more effective against a bladed weapon than is striking.

- Mounting someone with a weapon takes away the majority of his ability to do damage. The only stronger place to be is back mounted.

- Finish with elbows from the mount and/or a choke if he turns and gives his back rather than take the elbows. Usually takes between 1 and 10 seconds if he doesn't have knowledge of how to defend from underneath the mount.

[goju]

but theres always the possibilty he can get in a dominant position and then your on the ground with soem one with aknife whos on top of you

[Kansuke]

Are you actually asking a question or trying to make an (illl-informed) statement


I was thinking the same thing

[YungChun]

Numerous reports have been made of grappling vs edged weapons with the grapplers getting sliced and diced.. These discussions of encounters seem to make light of the situation by comparison..

Are you going to control the weapon?

Are you going to shoot for the legs?

Are you going to clinch?

Offer him your guard? :D

A few seconds of *delay* in taking the weapon delivery system out in close quarters can easily result in death and has, even in so-called dominant positions... Blades don't need much power to kill.. By comparison a skilled "striker" could conceivably turn the guy's lights out almost instantly...

A connected style of striking could do the same and maintain control of the weapon. This assumes we know he has an edged weapon--he may not show it to you and your first clue may be that your clothes feel wet-->from your blood as your life seeps away..

Folks can train as they wish but I would never want to "roll" on the ground with someone with an edged weapon.. LEO and tactical trainers don't teach folks to go to the ground (at least not the ones I have met) against an edged weapon... Of course, those with extensive ground experience may feel differently and advocate going to the ground no matter what. Nevertheless folks without extensive ground skill are better off not doing so IMO.. I find the idea of rolling around on the ground in the subway with a knife wielding threat highly undesirable to say the least.

Then there is the very real likely-hood that the perp has a buddy who will move in as soon as you commit to the delayed and entwined grapple, which by its nature takes more time than does skilled stand-up smashing.. Every second counts, we need to hurt him instantly--every second lost has a tactical cost...

Conservation of time, movement and energy is the way to go..

[Merryprankster]

"What to do against an armed opponent," is pretty much just a distraction.

Here is what you are going to do. You are going to get hit, cut, stabbed, sliced, shot, etc.

The idea that "striking is better than grappling, no grappling is better than striking" for this is just dumb.

You're gonna get cut, unless you get lucky, no matter what happens, and probably no matter what you train in. And anybody who doesn't realize that is basically retarded.

End.

[Merryprankster]

In actually fight. How do you use grappling to stop from getting knocked out?

How does one who only practies lets say Aikido,Judo and BJJ defeat a common thug. Lets say this thug is throwing his fist at your face as fast as he can. What do you do if you have no striking experience.

I have a couple responses.

The first is to keep your god**** hands up.
The second is that the question you have asked is so simple in nature, yet so full of variables that nobody who has ever done any regular full contact sparring or fighting would ever ask it, because it doesn't actually mean anything.

[anerlich]

How does one who only practies lets say Aikido,Judo and BJJ defeat a common thug. Lets say this thug is throwing his fist at your face as fast as he can. What do you do if you have no striking experience.

1. All of us on here have striking experience (or claim to) so it's an irrelevant question.

2. Why don't you go to a frigging grappling school and FIND OUT?

[namron]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuVhGKEIcxE&feature=related

[Merryprankster]

1. All of us on here have striking experience (or claim to) so it's an irrelevant question.

2. Why don't you go to a frigging grappling school and FIND OUT?

Too experiential. Too direct. Much better to discuss it in the abstract. As we know, paper exercises prepare you for the real thing ;-)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Paper Beats Rock!

[monji112000]

What if the bumb your fighting pulls a knife or screw driver and attempts to plunged it in you. how would the take down and mount help you.

My other question is once you are in the mount posistion how do you finish the guy. How long does it take to finish him usually?

I have no idea about weapons training, so I couldn't help you. You are in no better position standing .. JMO . I would just give him your wallet if that was the case..
also if you are able to be on top and control his wrists I would think any weapon would be muted..

you can finish the a normal person pretty quickly from the mount. You can also stand back up, and kick him in the head. As a general rule when a person is laying on his back in a fight he is at a major disadvantage.. that includes the guard JMO.. :D

[Knifefighter]

Folks can train as they wish but I would never want to "roll" on the ground with someone with an edged weapon.. LEO and tactical trainers don't teach folks to go to the ground (at least not the ones I have met) against an edged weapon... Of course, those with extensive ground experience may feel differently and advocate going to the ground no matter what. Nevertheless folks without extensive ground skill are better off not doing so IMO.. I find the idea of rolling around on the ground in the subway with a knife wielding threat highly undesirable to say the least. ..

There are two things you can do to quickly prove the incorrectness of the above statement.
1- Start training full force with weapons that are as close to the real thing as possible (the two that are probably the best are shock knives and and steel blades that do not have a fully sharpened edge).
2- Watch examples of real-life knife attacks. Here are a few:
http://www.yourdailymedia.com/media/1150546625/Brutal_Knife_Attack
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4010971n
http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/2284/bus-knife-attack.html
http://www.bestviral.com/video/18723/police_officer_interrupts_knife_attack

You will find that 9 times out of 10, edged weapon attacks end up with grappling and/or groundfighting. The fact that you don't want the fight to go to that range won't do you a bit of good because there's pretty much nothing you can do to prevent it. Trainers who are not training people about the reality that edged weapon attacks involve grappling/groundfighting are ignoring the facts, probably because they are clueless about the dynamics themselves. Good CQC trainers teach how to grapple/groundfight against weapons.

Anyone relying on the "one strike takes em out" mentality, is seriously deluded.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I recall a clip I used to have on a DVD awhile back, the whole DVD was a compilation of knife attacks from all different sources and one of the attacks I remember the most was of a guy attacking someone in a store with a knife and he was stabbing them a few times when someone smacks him on the head with an ALUMINUM baseball bat !
Over and over on the head and body and such and they guy turns to him and tries to stab him WHILE STILL getting hit !!
The bat eventually hits the arm with the knife and it goes flying and the attacker is eventually beaten down, but it took a bunch of hits with an aluminum bat to do it !

[Knifefighter]

I recall a clip I used to have on a DVD awhile back, the whole DVD was a compilation of knife attacks from all different sources and one of the attacks I remember the most was of a guy attacking someone in a store with a knife and he was stabbing them a few times when someone smacks him on the head with an ALUMINUM baseball bat !
Over and over on the head and body and such and they guy turns to him and tries to stab him WHILE STILL getting hit !!
The bat eventually hits the arm with the knife and it goes flying and the attacker is eventually beaten down, but it took a bunch of hits with an aluminum bat to do it !
Actually, it was a mop handle... and yet another example of an edged weapon attack with grappling/groundfighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, it was a mop handle... and yet another example of an edged weapon attack with grappling/groundfighting.

Not that one, it was a different one, I recall the mop handle though.

[grasshopper 2.0]

I remember working with a guy on knife defenses. He was an assistant instructor for wolfe's system of self-defense and bjj grappler. They worked a lot on knife defenses so I asked him to show me with me being the assailant, using a fake blade prop.

His strategy was controling the arm/weapon and his next strategy was taking me down to isolate the weapon

In either cases, he was slice everwhere - neck, throat, ribs, thighs, wrist and stabbed too. It would take him around 5 minutes before he could isolate the weapon. It was an ugly situation and a wake up call for both of us.

I have no knife fighting experience so its not like I knew how to slice him.

We also did some sparring. Like I said he was assistant instructor and I was student grade 5 (based onWT structure). Learned a lot - grappling and takedowns are pretty effective, but there were glimpses of light there on how to use wt to neutralize it. Great session all in all

Come to think of it - he was a really nice guy. Kinda hard to find such guys to train with without egos getting in the way.

[Knifefighter]

In either cases, he was slice everwhere - neck, throat, ribs, thighs, wrist and stabbed too. It would take him around 5 minutes before he could isolate the weapon. It was an ugly situation and a wake up call for both of us..
Yep... it's always a wake up call for the "knife expert" the first time he goes hard against a truly resisting opponent.

[Frost]

you said your self when the arm is extended thats when the grappler shoots thats the same way china is applied onece its missed and extended for a breif period of time it can be snapped



No I said as soon as the arm (and especially the elbow) is away from the body is when a grappler would move, not when the arm is fully extended.

Your arm can be too high because you are defending against my strikes and I’ll move, your arm can be slightly out of place defensivly and I’ll move, they can be coming back after throwing a combination and I’ll move, I am not waiting for them to be straight or extended or waiting until they have missed their target.

[Frost]

you guys ever watch any shuai jiao competitions or matches? plenty of chinese grappling there. lots of vids. look it up.


I am not arguing against Chinese wrestling being impractical or not working, I am talking about chin na standing locks not being a high percentage move when standing with an opponent

[Frost]

Yep... it's always a wake up call for the "knife expert" the first time he goes hard against a truly resisting opponent.



This is so true I spent years training knife defences in my traditional school, I got very good at it (or so I thought) then a few of us got together to train realistically after class and to say the least it was an eye opener.

The first thing that was noticeable was that a few of the really senior students couldn’t attack properly with the knife, we were so conditioned to leaving the knife out there for our opponent to do the disarm that we continued to do this for quite a while. The second thing we noticed was once we got over this bad habit we got cut, an awful lot, so much so that all of us started to really question our training and the usefulness of doing any weapons defence training.

We also noticed when going full out that you hit grappling range very quickly with a knife and you had better know how to grapple standing and on the ground to have a hope in hells change of surviving.

These days I do virtually no weapons defence training, just MMA and grappling but on the odd occasion I do pull the training blade out I am reminded how dangerous weapons are and how grateful I am that I can now grapple a little bit.

[goju]

the problem traditional schools knife defense is the techniques were orginally intended to be used against a sword not a knife

[Knifefighter]

the problem traditional schools knife defense is the techniques were orginally intended to be used against a sword not a knife

LOL... I can't believe you guys are still arguing with this troll.

[goju]

LOL... I can't believe you guys are still arguing with this troll.
what does me trolling have to do with the comment you clicked quoted???? are you that simple you cant figure out how to post properly?

no ones arguing about knife defense here genius:D

[Knifefighter]

what does me trolling have to do with the comment you clicked quoted???? are you that simple you cant figure out how to post properly?

no ones arguing about knife defense here genius:D

Hi trollboy.

[goju]

Hi trollboy.
boy your just full of razor sharp wit today arent you?

you running around in your back yard chasing a chicken in preperation for your trip to colorado?

[Frost]

the problem traditional schools knife defense is the techniques were orginally intended to be used against a sword not a knife

No my schools knife defence came from a treacher who had actually defended himself against a knife, the problem is that what might have worked for him might not work for anyome else especially if you don't train them in an alive enviroment (oh lord now i sound like matt thornton).

What starts out as his way of defending himself becomes over time in a dead system THE way to defend against that attack, there is little if no room for free thought so it becomes regimented, rigid and useless.

[Frost]

LOL... I can't believe you guys are still arguing with this troll.

i know i know its a bad habit i have :(