Is WC Short Range or Long Range

[Yoshiyahu]

Is WC a Short Range fighting System or a Long Range fighting System.

When you fight with WC should your goal be to fight on the inside or gain entry to fight on the inside?

Please share your view?

[AdrianK]

I don't even know where to begin with you. :rolleyes:

[Pacman]

Is WC a Short Range fighting System or a Long Range fighting System.

When you fight with WC should your goal be to fight on the inside or gain entry to fight on the inside?

Please share your view?

how can you fight on the inside without first gaining entry to fight on the inside unless the fight starts out with you standing 6 inches away

[Yoshiyahu]

how can you fight on the inside without first gaining entry to fight on the inside unless the fight starts out with you standing 6 inches away

So is gaining entry an long range technique?

[monji112000]

Is WC a Short Range fighting System or a Long Range fighting System.

When you fight with WC should your goal be to fight on the inside or gain entry to fight on the inside?

Please share your view?
Both. Although not everyone of Ip Man's students training in both ranges it is both.

[AdrianK]

So is gaining entry an long range technique?

Closing the distance and gaining entry is applicable to a number of ranges including long range, especially if long range means kicking range.

[Yoshiyahu]

So can someone tell me why WC is classified as inside fighting style?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Probably mostly because it is a close in fighting style. Some 50 years ago I was told how Wing Chun came to be. There was this troup of red junks that hauled around a large group of circus performers. They did acrobatics, gung fu, gambling, drugs, and flesh. They painted the junks bright red so that they could be seen coming for a distance. They traveled the major river systems and the China coast to the major cities where they would perform. On these river systems and the china sea piracy was prevelent. Bandits and pirates would try to take over large junks loaded with goods or money, and the red junks carried lots of equipment and valuables. The fighting skills they developed were for fighting in close in quarters and small passage ways aboard the junks. Think about this a bit. In a narrow passage way you can kick forward and punch forward in a rapid and powerful manner. Those not used to this would need more room to use long weapons and roundhouse kicks and punches. The short butterfly knife would be an easy use too. And the pole was developed into a weapon. The pole was used to move the junks in shallow water, and the person would walk up and down a gang plank on the side of the boat. This pole could be used to prevent bandits boarding the boat, and if they managed to gain board the red boaters could fight them effectively. This fighting style became very refined, and eventually it managed to find it's way out amongst the general populations. Eventually into the military. It had nothing to do with a woman monk or a young girl called Wing Chun. The acrobats would have more insight into the physical machinics of the human body and how to muster power and speed into a fighting system, and they did have all sorts of technique that is not taught today. One technique was the wind mill. It was used by the polers on the sides of the boats to deflect arrows fired at them by the bandits on approach. Not used today for obvious reasons. The performers were also accompanied by thugs and thieves and other scam artists that took advantage of the public who came to see them perform. This is another good reason to have a good fighting system. Of course in the past 50 odd years there have been any number of myths to explain the specialness of all these different lineages of WC.
I was sworn to never teach WC to anyone outside my family. I can fully understand now why this was necessary. By doing so, and mostly by teaching it to westerners, WC has become absolutely *******ized. Thus all the arguing that goes on here over the simplist of things WC.

[grasshopper 2.0]

i don't see why it matters how you categorize it. It's more along the lines of whether you can hit the guy or not. What if you're taller than your opponent, then is your punch long range? what if your opponent is much taller than you, then is your kick short range?

also how you apply your WCK would have an effect - some like to keep their moves tight and always on the center-line, while others expand and deviate along the center-line. The application chosen may limit or restrict your body's "reachability"

[Pacman]

So can someone tell me why WC is classified as inside fighting style?

people who classify it as much are generally those who chi sau for 25 years and never learn how to use it in a real situation against competent fighters (hi terrence)

[Wayfaring]

One technique was the wind mill. It was used by the polers on the sides of the boats to deflect arrows fired at them by the bandits on approach. Not used today for obvious reasons.

Would that be because people seldom carry bows and arrows around today or because everyone died who tried this technique?

[t_niehoff]

Is WC a Short Range fighting System or a Long Range fighting System.

When you fight with WC should your goal be to fight on the inside or gain entry to fight on the inside?

Please share your view?

If you look at the WCK faat (the method passed down from the ancestors), the drills/exercises of WCK, the kuit (the "advice" passed down from the WCK ancestors), the dummy, etc. you see that WCK is a close range, inside, mainly attached fighting method. In a nutshell, our game is to control the opponent while striking him. The currciulum of WCK includes the tools/skills to both "enter" (get inside and attached) and to fight from there.

[Yoshiyahu]

Lee Chiang Po In your own words what does phrase mean? "close in fighting style"

Pacman "people who classify it as much are generally those who chi sau for 25 years and never learn how to use it in a real situation against competent fighters (hi terrence)"


***Nice one. Ha ha...If your fighting someone in Bath room stall Will your WC more effective than if you were fighting some guy who is five feet away from you. WC is design to go toe to toe. Not throw High round house kicks or side kicks to someones head from three feet away. With WC you get up on your opponent and attack them. You either wait for them to bridge, you bridge the gap or you stand still. With out a bridge there is no WC fight. Throwing kicks all across the mat doesn't fit in With WC fighting strategem.

Actually Pacman heres a nice Qoute from Terrence

Terrence Niehoff : ''If you look at the WCK faat (the method passed down from the ancestors), the drills/exercises of WCK, the kuit (the "advice" passed down from the WCK ancestors), the dummy, etc. you see that WCK is a close range, inside, mainly attached fighting method. In a nutshell, our game is to control the opponent while striking him. The currciulum of WCK includes the tools/skills to both "enter" (get inside and attached) and to fight from there. "

[scottking]

Doesnt the kuit also say that inside punch goes up and the outside punch goes down, and also isnt chum kui trained to desroy the bridge, which in my oppinion would be easier from the outside, and i think that bill jee (which I havent done yet by the way) trains long bridge, so to summarise, wing chun should train inside, outside, short, and long distance training, it is after all a complete system ...is it not?

[Yoshiyahu]

Doesnt the kuit also say that inside punch goes up and the outside punch goes down, and also isnt chum kui trained to desroy the bridge, which in my oppinion would be easier from the outside, and i think that bill jee (which I havent done yet by the way) trains long bridge, so to summarise, wing chun should train inside, outside, short, and long distance training, it is after all a complete system after all...is it not?

Tae Kwon Do is a complete system too. But it primarly a kicking style. Boxing is a complete system as well but it mainly punches. Karate and Muay Thai are complete system but usually primarily Yang force and have no ground fighting.

The key is understanding your WC and understanding its limitations. Which I learn early on as a child. I discovered WC works best in certain ranges than others. Discovering this made it easier to control my opponent and dominant. The key is not to have a whole lot of wasted movement. What does Inclose Fighting mean?

Also scottking what drills do you practice that deals with long range?

I practice long range fighting with my WC and we do long range drills. But the three hand forms are all for inside fighting. Just try practicing the forms in a bath room stall!

[scottking]

Hang on just having my dinner, back in a mo

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is as good an explanation of the probable historical roots of wing chun as anything ever written by Benny Meng, and it didn't take a whole museum to produce it. I love this!



Probably mostly because it is a close in fighting style. Some 50 years ago I was told how Wing Chun came to be. There was this troup of red junks that hauled around a large group of circus performers. They did acrobatics, gung fu, gambling, drugs, and flesh. They painted the junks bright red so that they could be seen coming for a distance. They traveled the major river systems and the China coast to the major cities where they would perform. On these river systems and the china sea piracy was prevelent. Bandits and pirates would try to take over large junks loaded with goods or money, and the red junks carried lots of equipment and valuables. The fighting skills they developed were for fighting in close in quarters and small passage ways aboard the junks. Think about this a bit. In a narrow passage way you can kick forward and punch forward in a rapid and powerful manner. Those not used to this would need more room to use long weapons and roundhouse kicks and punches. The short butterfly knife would be an easy use too. And the pole was developed into a weapon. The pole was used to move the junks in shallow water, and the person would walk up and down a gang plank on the side of the boat. This pole could be used to prevent bandits boarding the boat, and if they managed to gain board the red boaters could fight them effectively. This fighting style became very refined, and eventually it managed to find it's way out amongst the general populations. Eventually into the military. It had nothing to do with a woman monk or a young girl called Wing Chun. The acrobats would have more insight into the physical machinics of the human body and how to muster power and speed into a fighting system, and they did have all sorts of technique that is not taught today. One technique was the wind mill. It was used by the polers on the sides of the boats to deflect arrows fired at them by the bandits on approach. Not used today for obvious reasons. The performers were also accompanied by thugs and thieves and other scam artists that took advantage of the public who came to see them perform. This is another good reason to have a good fighting system. Of course in the past 50 odd years there have been any number of myths to explain the specialness of all these different lineages of WC.
I was sworn to never teach WC to anyone outside my family. I can fully understand now why this was necessary. By doing so, and mostly by teaching it to westerners, WC has become absolutely *******ized. Thus all the arguing that goes on here over the simplist of things WC.

[scottking]

Sorrry Ultimatewingchun, I deleted the post, for some reason I thought Id read the post wrong and got the wrong end of the stick, but now i know i should of let it be.....

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey, no problem! ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

And btw, I liked your kuen kuit post.

[scottking]

Yoshiyahu says
Also scottking what drills do you practice that deals with long range?

I come from the Chu sau lei family and am a proud student of Alan orr, and in the Chu sau lei system thet we do we dont really do drills per se, we chi sau against a resisting apponent, gor sau against a resisting apponent, and we spar against a resisting apponent, all with the correct body structure, body alighnment, linking, and delinking skills. This is purely my oppinion, but you say that wing chun is an inside fighting system, when you chi sau, isnt your fuk sau on the out side, when you lap sau doesnt your other arm go round the the outside to strike, when you spar would you just want to hit to the inside, because my limeted experience says that you will inevitabley end up on the outside, again just my oppinion but i think wingchun is 50% inside 50% outside depending on your opponents energy of course

[Yoshiyahu]

Yoshiyahu says
Also scottking what drills do you practice that deals with long range?

I come from the Chu sau lei family and am a proud student of Alan orr, and in the Chu sau lei system thet we do we dont really do drills per se, we chi sau against a resisting apponent, gor sau against a resisting apponent, and we spar against a resisting apponent, all with the correct body structure, body alighnment, linking, and delinking skills. This is purely my oppinion, but you say that wing chun is an inside fighting system, when you chi sau, isnt your fuk sau on the out side, when you lap sau doesnt your other arm go round the the outside to strike, when you spar would you just want to hit to the inside, because my limeted experience says that you will inevitabley end up on the outside, again just my oppinion but i think wingchun is 50% inside 50% outside depending on your opponents energy of course


Okay, Maybe my definition of outside an inside fighting is different than yours. AS for your point of view. If your attack their flanks or you bridge on top of their arms. Then you are attacking the outside of their attacking line. But as for being under bridge your attacking inside their attacking line.

What I mean by inside fighting is distance. Inside is short range. Outside is long range. If I use high round house kicks, Axe kicks, high side kicks and high front kicks then fighting outside. If I use hands techniques from the bridge its inside fighting. Short range is sticking and attacking continously controlling you. Long range is attacking from the outside moving in and out of range and not really maintaining contact or flow.

[chusauli]

Scott,

I think you are misunderstanding the discussion here. They are calling fighting from a distance "outside", and fighting in close as "inside", and not referring to the respective gates.

Hope this clarifies it.

Sigung

[Pacman]

Actually Pacman heres a nice Qoute from Terrence

Terrence Niehoff : ''If you look at the WCK faat (the method passed down from the ancestors), the drills/exercises of WCK, the kuit (the "advice" passed down from the WCK ancestors), the dummy, etc. you see that WCK is a close range, inside, mainly attached fighting method. In a nutshell, our game is to control the opponent while striking him. The currciulum of WCK includes the tools/skills to both "enter" (get inside and attached) and to fight from there. "

the 12 san sik are all about fighting on the outside. they include hand and foot attacks as well as counters. these are all tools to "enter". these are the basics. this is why SN taught these first. he didnt teach SNT or CK or BJ or sticky hands or the dummy until later. these are advanced concepts that are useless if one does not understand the basics

if you wanted, you could use the 12 san sik to fight from the outside all day long and it would be enough.

the reason WC is a close fighting style is that the ultimate goal is to get to the inside and stay there because WC fighters believe there is where they can tip the odds of winning with an attached fighting method aka sticky hands.

so i dont disagree that close in fighting is WCs specialty or ultimate goal. what i do disagree with is that you could not use the 12 san sik to fight from the outside and that you would be lacking compared to using other techniques.

[scottking]

Yoshiyahu says
What I mean by inside fighting is distance. Inside is short range. Outside is long range. If I use high round house kicks, Axe kicks, high side kicks and high front kicks then fighting outside. If I use hands techniques from the bridge its inside fighting. Short range is sticking and attacking continously controlling you. Long range is attacking from the outside moving in and out of range and not really maintaining contact or flow.[/QUOTE]

Ok, my mistake, then it has to be a primarily inside system, the idear is to get in close inorder to use your body to controll your opponet, plus you can put your body behind your punches, of course wing chun goes to the outside as well but i would say it was desighned primarily for the inside

[LoneTiger108]

Is WC a Short Range fighting System or a Long Range fighting System.

When you fight with WC should your goal be to fight on the inside or gain entry to fight on the inside?

Please share your view?

IMHO The Wing Chun I know and love covers the long, short and every range in between. Inside or outside, these ideas are also in all ranges.

FME Whenever you try to 'box' WC into a single catergory, you are doing the style a dis-service. Certain aspects of our training may 'specialize' in one way more than another, but this does not mean that it's all we do or should be known for, does it?

The aim? NOT to fight! :rolleyes:


Of course in the past 50 odd years there have been any number of myths to explain the specialness of all these different lineages of WC.
I was sworn to never teach WC to anyone outside my family. I can fully understand now why this was necessary. By doing so, and mostly by teaching it to westerners, WC has become absolutely *******ized. Thus all the arguing that goes on here over the simplist of things WC.

An interesting, dare I say, Chinese mind-set behind this comment LCP! Not that I don't understand what you're trying to say here, coz I do, and I know you don't mean to offend all us westerners!!

May I suggest you explain in your opinion WHY this happened?

FWIW, I strongly believe that if you have no Chinese 'language' in your curriculum/s, the WC you're learning becomes strictly a 'photo-copy' of your teachers image. Big problem when your Sifu is supposed to make you better than he'll ever be.

Hence, Long & Short, inside and outside, high and low, it IS all there in the languge of curriculums I am familiar with and even the most 'physical' western Sifus I've had the pleasure of meeting in the UK do teach all this stuff, albeit in English.

Interpretation is one thing. Translation is something else. If the interpretation is too vivid, it will only take a short time for the actual core of the style to change, and unfortunately sometimes become rather far from what it really should be.

Again, IMHO if Chinese language was present the question of if WC has this range or that would not even exist...

[Pacman]

WC did not become watered down by teaching it to westerners. WC, like other TCMAs, became watered down as soon as their usage changed from being a source of power over others who didn't know kung fu to recreation/excercise.

you can blame the chinese communist government, that banned all martial arts practice in the 50s, and the invention of modern weapons, which act as a great equalizer to the fit and unfit alike, for making this happen

this is why fighting arts that were turned into sports (hi terrence), in general still have a more 'hardcore' method of training--because there is real motivation to be good. not that TCMAs never did have this type of training, its just that its hard to find nowadays




IMHO The Wing Chun I know and love covers the long, short and every range in between. Inside or outside, these ideas are also in all ranges.

FME Whenever you try to 'box' WC into a single catergory, you are doing the style a dis-service. Certain aspects of our training may 'specialize' in one way more than another, but this does not mean that it's all we do or should be known for, does it?

The aim? NOT to fight! :rolleyes:



An interesting, dare I say, Chinese mind-set behind this comment LCP! Not that I don't understand what you're trying to say here, coz I do, and I know you don't mean to offend all us westerners!!

May I suggest you explain in your opinion WHY this happened?

FWIW, I strongly believe that if you have no Chinese 'language' in your curriculum/s, the WC you're learning becomes strictly a 'photo-copy' of your teachers image. Big problem when your Sifu is supposed to make you better than he'll ever be.

Hence, Long & Short, inside and outside, high and low, it IS all there in the languge of curriculums I am familiar with and even the most 'physical' western Sifus I've had the pleasure of meeting in the UK do teach all this stuff, albeit in English.

Interpretation is one thing. Translation is something else. If the interpretation is too vivid, it will only take a short time for the actual core of the style to change, and unfortunately sometimes become rather far from what it really should be.

Again, IMHO if Chinese language was present the question of if WC has this range or that would not even exist...

[Lee Chiang Po]

LT108, I guess I am about as westernized as you could be. I was born in the USA and schooled and grew up here. My parents spoke Cantonese and pigeon English. My oldest brother spoke good Cantonese. Most of the terms we used were strictly English and some were made up to come close to the original Cantonese. I was from a very strict parents. My dad was very adament about how things were done. He held with his own teachings, and he had me pledge to hold to them as well. He asked me to never teach WC outside my own family, and particularly not to those outside the race. He was even more opposed to my Japanese friends. I held no grudge, but he fought them in their invasion of China. He was at Shanghai. I actually broke my vow, and I taught Hiro( James) Matsu WC in turn for his teaching me his Jujitsu. He was Japanese. I was actually more interested in his little sister, but she was even more predjudiced then our parents were.
As for it becoming altered so badly because of teaching outside the race, it was dad's thoughts that when westerners get hold of anything they immediately start trying to improve on it. So to speak. And some of them have some really bazaar ideas as to what they consider improvements. I think it comes from some sort of superiority complex. Not from blood or race, but through westernization. I realize that most westernized people do not see this. But no one sees themselves as others do. And no, I am not trying to insult or speak ill of anyone. However, when we look at the vast number of lineages of WC today, We can not deny that it has been seriously altered in many ways. Some to the point of drifting away from the real basics even. Or the basics as I know them. I guess it is all good.

[Hendrik]

I personally dont buy lots of so called " one must know this secrete set or that secret sets" ideas. Moves for me doesnt mean much at all if the power generation platform is not solid.


However, the power generation process does make a heaven and earth different. and if it is not reveal and it is not realize, one practically lock oneself out of the game. and it is not something a trial and error experiments can get.

and because this power generation process transmission needs some level of education level, thus, one can see it happen alots that the chinese masters cant passed it down even to the second generation because he cant describe it or cant clearly define the process step eventhough he is the master.


Transmitting the core of an TCMA IMA art to the next generation are something very different then some belive "intepreting the kuit" or kuit is just an advise.
It is a type of power platform with its developing process and applications. Without these the system is not even begin yet.

That is also the reason, IMHO, SLT's true face is lost in general. Doing SLT with TKD or Hung Gar or .... power generation type is a kiss of death.



as for Short Range and Long range,
In my understanding, Short range is define in Chinese martial art to be within the range of body and elbow, while long range is beyond the elbow to the leg kick distance.


WCK address all range however special in the shoulder to elbow range. that is the reason of the requirement of developing the Keng Geng. Without that, that speciality is almost guarentee will never work when facing some real deal fighters.

It those close range, it becomes a power struggle instead of a power issuing with ease. Thus, one is doom.



Just my 5 cents.

[Yoshiyahu]

the 12 san sik are all about fighting on the outside. they include hand and foot attacks as well as counters. these are all tools to "enter". these are the basics. this is why SN taught these first. he didnt teach SNT or CK or BJ or sticky hands or the dummy until later. these are advanced concepts that are useless if one does not understand the basics

if you wanted, you could use the 12 san sik to fight from the outside all day long and it would be enough.

the reason WC is a close fighting style is that the ultimate goal is to get to the inside and stay there because WC fighters believe there is where they can tip the odds of winning with an attached fighting method aka sticky hands.

so i dont disagree that close in fighting is WCs specialty or ultimate goal. what i do disagree with is that you could not use the 12 san sik to fight from the outside and that you would be lacking compared to using other techniques.

I agree Pacman. I see my definition of inside is a little father than yours. Your thinking from outside of the gates. I thinking long range. Your saying working around your opponent. Or maybe like San Shou. Where you don't have contact but attack with out contact or attack their bridge.

When I say long range. I mean like Long fist or Tae Kwon Do.



I personally dont buy lots of so called " one must know this secrete set or that secret sets" ideas. Moves for me doesnt mean much at all if the power generation platform is not solid.


However, the power generation process does make a heaven and earth different. and if it is not reveal and it is not realize, one practically lock oneself out of the game. and it is not something a trial and error experiments can get.

and because this power generation process transmission needs some level of education level, thus, one can see it happen alots that the chinese masters cant passed it down even to the second generation because he cant describe it or cant clearly define the process step eventhough he is the master.


Transmitting the core of an TCMA IMA art to the next generation are something very different then some belive "intepreting the kuit" or kuit is just an advise.
It is a type of power platform with its developing process and applications. Without these the system is not even begin yet.

That is also the reason, IMHO, SLT's true face is lost in general. Doing SLT with TKD or Hung Gar or .... power generation type is a kiss of death.



as for Short Range and Long range,
In my understanding, Short range is define in Chinese martial art to be within the range of body and elbow, while long range is beyond the elbow to the leg kick distance.


WCK address all range however special in the shoulder to elbow range. that is the reason of the requirement of developing the Keng Geng. Without that, that speciality is almost guarentee will never work when facing some real deal fighters.

It those close range, it becomes a power struggle instead of a power issuing with ease. Thus, one is doom.



Just my 5 cents.

What is Keng Geng

how you cultivate it???

How many different types of Geng can one cultivate in WC?

[t_niehoff]

the 12 san sik are all about fighting on the outside. they include hand and foot attacks as well as counters. these are all tools to "enter". these are the basics. this is why SN taught these first. he didnt teach SNT or CK or BJ or sticky hands or the dummy until later. these are advanced concepts that are useless if one does not understand the basics

if you wanted, you could use the 12 san sik to fight from the outside all day long and it would be enough.


Do you speak for Sum Nung? No. So don't say why Sum taught this way or that way -- you don't know why. When you try tp speaqk for Sum, you only do him and YKS WCK a great disservice.

The 12 san sik of Sum Nung are not "entry" techniques.



the reason WC is a close fighting style is that the ultimate goal is to get to the inside and stay there because WC fighters believe there is where they can tip the odds of winning with an attached fighting method aka sticky hands.

so i dont disagree that close in fighting is WCs specialty or ultimate goal. what i do disagree with is that you could not use the 12 san sik to fight from the outside and that you would be lacking compared to using other techniques.

People can believe just about anything.

[Yoshiyahu]

Whats the purpose of the 12 san sik?



Do you speak for Sum Nung? No. So don't say why Sum taught this way or that way -- you don't know why. When you try tp speaqk for Sum, you only do him and YKS WCK a great disservice.

The 12 san sik of Sum Nung are not "entry" techniques.



People can believe just about anything.

[Hendrik]

Whats the purpose of the 12 san sik?

Yoshiyahu,


Do you know about what is the different between a Four Wheel drive

http://www.automotive.com/2009/99/toyota/4runner/limited-sport-utility/991/index.html

and a two wheel drive

http://automobiles.honda.com/shop/odyssey.aspx?ef_id=1097:3:s_2ba96f6dccca3c78b3cb2f fb8b19ff5a_556272120:SoNFlNBkLAoAABOOlDMAAAEA:2009 0812224332

So Which is good for Short range hill side forest performance? Which is good for long distance family travelling?

[Yoshiyahu]

How does your question relate to question I asked Terrence????

Please share???



Yoshiyahu,


Do you know about what is the different between a Four Wheel drive

http://www.automotive.com/2009/99/toyota/4runner/limited-sport-utility/991/index.html

and a two wheel drive

http://automobiles.honda.com/shop/odyssey.aspx?ef_id=1097:3:s_2ba96f6dccca3c78b3cb2f fb8b19ff5a_556272120:SoNFlNBkLAoAABOOlDMAAAEA:2009 0812224332

So Which is good for Short range hill side forest performance? Which is good for long distance family travelling?

[Lucas]

red junks that hauled around a large group of circus performers. They did acrobatics, gung fu, gambling, drugs, and flesh.

this is similar to how savate was developed, except think open sea and more holding onto things and kicking with the rocking motions.

its a common pattern that combat development often occurs by people who rely on fighting/defending to make a living.

[Hendrik]

How does your question relate to question I asked Terrence????

Please share???

you need to know what type of platform you have before anything or any question.

[Yoshiyahu]

you need to know what type of platform you have before anything or any question.

Hendrik What is a platform?


Pacman what are entry techniques used for? to fight on the outside or inside???

[Pacman]

third grade mushroom sleeps green ideas salivating dream furiously green

wing chun platform ok!?

[Yoshiyahu]

third grade mushroom sleeps green ideas salivating dream furiously green

wing chun platform ok!?

did you see my question for you???

Pacman what are entry techniques used for? to fight on the outside or inside???

[Pacman]

sum nungs 12 san sik give you techniques to enter. this means to fight from the outside and make it safe to move in

if you do not know the advanced in fighting methods and just the san sik or for some reason do not want to move in you can fight on the outside all day and you wont be lacking in techniques compared to another style

[Yoshiyahu]

sum nungs 12 san sik give you techniques to enter. this means to fight from the outside and make it safe to move in

if you do not know the advanced in fighting methods and just the san sik or for some reason do not want to move in you can fight on the outside all day and you wont be lacking in techniques compared to another style

But basically they are entry techniques to fight on the inside correct?

[t_niehoff]

Whats the purpose of the 12 san sik?

To learn WCK.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik What is a platform?





What is your martial art design for? IE a 4WD for hill and snow land or a 2WD for high way and gas efficient?

[Yoshiyahu]

To learn WCK.

When you do the 12 san sik what are you learning from WC? Whats the purpose?


What is your martial art design for? IE a 4WD for hill and snow land or a 2WD for high way and gas efficient?

What does 4wd and 2wd compare to?

How does one loosen up the hip...An don't say basai!!!

[Pacman]

But basically they are entry techniques to fight on the inside correct?

i would say they are 12 different techniques to combat your opponent. like all WC, it is not a complete choreographed move, so each san sik can be applied in multiple ways.

the important thing is that each teaches a principle.

you can use this principle to enter, or you can use this principle to stay on the outside.

this is why i cannot pigeon hole it by saying these techniques are only for entering.

[Pacman]

When you do the 12 san sik what are you learning from WC? Whats the purpose?

each of the san sik has a different purpose.

[Yoshiyahu]

i would say they are 12 different techniques to combat your opponent. like all WC, it is not a complete choreographed move, so each san sik can be applied in multiple ways.

the important thing is that each teaches a principle.

you can use this principle to enter, or you can use this principle to stay on the outside.

this is why i cannot pigeon hole it by saying these techniques are only for entering.

I agree here...good response.


each of the san sik has a different purpose.

I am sorry this question was for Terrenace.


Terrence whats the purpose of the San Sik? How do the San Sik help you learn WC?

[LoneTiger108]

WC did not become watered down by teaching it to westerners.

I never said WC has been watered down, it was Lee Chiang Po who made a similar comment which I responded to with:


FWIW, I strongly believe that if you have no Chinese 'language' in your curriculum/s, the WC you're learning becomes strictly a 'photo-copy' of your teachers image. Big problem when your Sifu is supposed to make you better than he'll ever be.

This isn't 'watering down' anything, I'm simply stating that without the original language, what is it that you're trying to teach? A list of images?

Anyone can add their mindset, their findings, their 'way' onto the original forms and curriculum. But it's the curriculum that interests me. Why we have three hand forms, a pole and knife set, a wooden man, wallbags, chisau etc.

Considering this thread has been diverted onto discussing 12 set methods and the like (a fourth hand set!) and how that can be long, short, in or outside, to me is proof that many here are simply clasping at straws. How many people in the world of WC have even practised a 12 method approach? Which families actually only use that as their base for teaching? And what has that got to do with the original question of the thread?

We know of 'many' families, and how we all see things slightly differently and sometimes we can be divided by our own arrogance. But if Wing Chun is as it was intended to be, we must all have the same core? We must all share 'something?!

Some call it a 'platform', a 'structure'. What I'm talking about is more in relation the the 'language of teaching'. The curriculum itself presented in it's original tongue. And I'm not just talking about listing the names of hand shapes, or drills. I'm talking of the presentation of a complete style and 'how to' train it.

If only we could all get to Foshan in November, we could unify all families under the new World Wing Chun Union?! :o :rolleyes:

[Pacman]

i think i just hit the "quote" on your post by accident. i know you didnt say that


I never said WC has been watered down, it was Lee Chiang Po who made a similar comment which I responded to with:



This isn't 'watering down' anything, I'm simply stating that without the original language, what is it that you're trying to teach? A list of images?

Anyone can add their mindset, their findings, their 'way' onto the original forms and curriculum. But it's the curriculum that interests me. Why we have three hand forms, a pole and knife set, a wooden man, wallbags, chisau etc.

Considering this thread has been diverted onto discussing 12 set methods and the like (a fourth hand set!) and how that can be long, short, in or outside, to me is proof that many here are simply clasping at straws. How many people in the world of WC have even practised a 12 method approach? Which families actually only use that as their base for teaching? And what has that got to do with the original question of the thread?

We know of 'many' families, and how we all see things slightly differently and sometimes we can be divided by our own arrogance. But if Wing Chun is as it was intended to be, we must all have the same core? We must all share 'something?!

Some call it a 'platform', a 'structure'. What I'm talking about is more in relation the the 'language of teaching'. The curriculum itself presented in it's original tongue. And I'm not just talking about listing the names of hand shapes, or drills. I'm talking of the presentation of a complete style and 'how to' train it.

If only we could all get to Foshan in November, we could unify all families under the new World Wing Chun Union?! :o :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

i think i just hit the "quote" on your post by accident. i know you didnt say that

what topic are we on now?

[HumbleWCGuy]

WCK is a medium range style, as all of the "action" happens in punching range. When a WCK stylist closes to grappling range to deliver blows, but the goal of WCK is not to stand in grappling range after unsuccessfully attacking, but rather to return to punching range where all of the WCK training can be utilized.

[dirtyrat]

I think the question of whether WC is short or long range is not really all that important. Personally I don't stay at a "range" and duke it out with an opponent.

I like to think of WC and kung fu in general in terms of ancient battlefield tactics. Through strategy and tactics, out flank or out maneuver the enemy & create an opening in the "enemy lines", then overrun those lines with techniques design to push and off balance the enemy to keep him from effectively mounting a counterattack. I want that space (territory) he's standing on. The German WWII tactic blitzkrieg comes to mind when I think of WC. Just my two cents...

[Yoshiyahu]

I think the question of whether WC is short or long range is not really all that important. Personally I don't stay at a "range" and duke it out with an opponent.

I like to think of WC and kung fu in general in terms of ancient battlefield tactics. Through strategy and tactics, out flank or out maneuver the enemy & create an opening in the "enemy lines", then overrun those lines with techniques design to push and off balance the enemy to keep him from effectively mounting a counterattack. I want that space (territory) he's standing on. The German WWII tactic blitzkrieg comes to mind when I think of WC. Just my two cents...

How do you attend to dominate the space their standing on?

[dirtyrat]

How do you attend to dominate the space their standing on?

It's just an expression really. When going on the offensive, I want to attack in such a way that he's forced to back up. It's hard to fight back while retreating. Actually to be more specific, I’m attacking my opponent’s balance. The idea being that even if he could hit me, there won’t be much power behind it.

[donbdc]

How do you attend to dominate the space their standing on?

You take their space and make it yours! Hands and feet must work together! Use your foot work drive them off balance and smash their center!
Don Berry, DC RKC

[Yoshiyahu]

It's just an expression really. When going on the offensive, I want to attack in such a way that he's forced to back up. It's hard to fight back while retreating. Actually to be more specific, I’m attacking my opponent’s balance. The idea being that even if he could hit me, there won’t be much power behind it.


Excellent response


You take their space and make it yours! Hands and feet must work together! Use your foot work drive them off balance and smash their center!
Don Berry, DC RKC

Thank you for your Input Don...Excellent post as well