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SPJ
08-09-2009, 02:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4_ZOPbd77E&feature=related

Bruce Lee's Kung Fu brother teaching in Taiwan's police academy.

he is also invited to teach military police in the US Army.

:)

SPJ
08-09-2009, 02:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOL3IenlolQ&feature=related

tan shou.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS58ejBsyNM&feature=related

straight punches.

SPJ
08-09-2009, 02:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqWk6OXla28&feature=related

explained principles in Switzerland.

:)

SPJ
08-09-2009, 02:26 PM
safe or defense first

you may choose to attack or not to attack

but protect your vital area or centerline first.

--

:)

SPJ
08-09-2009, 02:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RnXOXj-pUE&feature=related

single hand practice drill.

tan shou, wing hand ---

:)

SPJ
08-09-2009, 02:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0vDFGoNImc&feature=channel

free WC lessons from teacher Wong.

:)

monji112000
08-10-2009, 06:30 AM
Here is Sifu Lo's son Doing some very light sparring.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-3P6UU7QOI

LSWCTN1
08-10-2009, 07:01 AM
Here is Sifu Lo's son Doing some very light sparring.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-3P6UU7QOI

he learnt from Duncan Leung after his father

David Jamieson
08-10-2009, 07:44 AM
I hear US army MP's carry tazers and other non-lethal weapons to bypass any scuffles that may occur.

Lokhopkuen
08-10-2009, 09:52 AM
my team is using taser last few outings, very effective and fun X-26 (http://www.taserx26.com/)

Knifefighter
08-10-2009, 09:59 AM
Here is Sifu Lo's son Doing some very light sparring.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-3P6UU7QOI

That's not sparring. That is one guy throwing out some strikes while letting the other guy counter.

goju
08-10-2009, 10:07 AM
That's not sparring. That is one guy throwing out some strikes while letting the other guy counter.
neither is rolling around on the ground and making your opponent say uncle realisitic sparring either dale

goju
08-10-2009, 10:08 AM
lol but winch chun dosnt work right you just see the army use it even the marinesuse wing chin with their black kokar stuff
but listen to dalehe knows more than them ahahaahaha

Knifefighter
08-10-2009, 10:10 AM
neither is rolling around on the ground and making your opponent say uncle realisitic sparring either dale

Of course it isn't. Just as only striking isn't realistic.

It's only realistic when you throw grappling, strikes and weapons into the mix.

Knifefighter
08-10-2009, 10:13 AM
lol but winch chun dosnt work right you just see the army use it even the marinesuse wing chin with their black kokar stuff
but listen to dalehe knows more than them ahahaahaha
Yeah, the army and marines sure are experts at fighting without guns... they get a total of about a week or two of CQC training. Of course in your world of children black belts, that makes someone an expert.

grasshopper 2.0
08-10-2009, 10:26 AM
...And here we go again...

Grow up ladies... This cycle is getting beyond old...

goju
08-10-2009, 01:21 PM
Yeah, the army and marines sure are experts at fighting without guns... they get a total of about a week or two of CQC training. Of course in your world of children black belts, that makes someone an expert.
lol this just proves this guys a joke the marines and navy seals bothe use wing chun id t take it it works if theyd use it
let see marines and navy seals unknown mma fighter
hmmmmmmm who would i believe?

JPinAZ
08-10-2009, 03:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOL3IenlolQ&feature=related

tan shou.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS58ejBsyNM&feature=related

straight punches.

Since it's up here, in the first video, can someone explain the intent/mechanics in these actions? I don't mean any offence, but it looks like a lot of chasing hands to me - it seems there is no fwd intent in those tan saus on the first link.
Can even see it in the first link about 4 seconds in where he totally misses her arm/wrist.

JP

Sihing73
08-10-2009, 06:08 PM
Yeah, the army and marines sure are experts at fighting without guns... they get a total of about a week or two of CQC training. Of course in your world of children black belts, that makes someone an expert.

Hi Dale,

Of course you would be the authority on Training in the Military. Refresh my memory, what Branch of the Service did you serve in? :rolleyes:

I suppose you are well familiar with the various sections in the service considered the elite, Marine Force Recon, US Air Force Para-rescue, US Army Rangers, Green Berets and Delt and lets not forget the US Navy Seals. I am sure that if you were to meet anyone of these in an empty alley you would kick their butts with your Gym Fantasy Martial art:D

Oh, just tell them your monicker, that will be sure to put the fear of the all knowing Dale into their hearts. But be careful some of them may actually know how to fight for real with knives, might have to call you "stumpy" afterwards. :p

All in fun Dale, but seriously you come off a bit pompous as you seem to think you have the reality fighting market locked down. Maybe you can can it and sell it.

Oh, fwiw, none of the Branches of the Military have a designated method of combat, not WC not BJJ etc. What they do do is to incorporate concepts and techniques into a hybrid system taught. Also, a lot of the H2H training depends on who is assigned to the unit as well as the fact that many times the training is squad based so different focus for different things.

However, one thing which sets many of the elite forces apart from others is the mental conditiong they are exposed to and the fact that they are taught to push beyond their pre-conceived limits.

But hey what do I know, ask Dale as we all know I am really a fake fantasy martial artists with not real life experience. Perhaps I will go down to the local MMA gym so I can post as an authority like Dale, maybe if I get into 3-4 fights and get a record he will change his opinion and accept that others have viable experiences also, apparently from his record I don't need to WIN to have valuable experience I can also lose and be an authority :)

Again all in fun, couldn't resist myself.

Pacman
08-10-2009, 06:43 PM
although ground fighting skills are important, one has to remember that when fighting multiple opponents going to the ground is something to be avoided.

i would assume that this can often be the case when fighting in the military or law enforcement

goju
08-10-2009, 07:43 PM
although ground fighting skills are important, one has to remember that when fighting multiple opponents going to the ground is something to be avoided.

i would assume that this can often be the case when fighting in the military or law enforcement
not to mention falling and grappling of a nice comfy mat hurts like hell, they person can bite you, scratch you, or pull out a weapon and attack you with it. have one of their freinds attack you when your on the ground et etc graplling in a street fight isnt a smart thing to do

Knifefighter
08-10-2009, 08:08 PM
LOL... and the three clueless, theoretical, pretend, non-fighters post once again.

Considering the fact that I used to train with the Seals and the Rangers when they would come into the Gracie academy, I have a pretty good idea of what's what.

Knifefighter
08-10-2009, 08:10 PM
although ground fighting skills are important, one has to remember that when fighting multiple opponents going to the ground is something to be avoided.

i would assume that this can often be the case when fighting in the military or law enforcement
Can you keep multiple opponents from taking you to the ground?

Sihing73
08-10-2009, 08:20 PM
LOL... and the three clueless, theoretical, pretend, non-fighters post once again.

Considering the fact that I used to train with the Seals and the Rangers when they would come into the Gracie academy, I have a pretty good idea of what's what.

So what Branch of the Service where you in again????

Also, are you going to say that in a real combat situation with the potential for multiple, armed opponents that BJJ is the art of choice???

Oh, what was your MMA record again? Perhaps you are the clueless one, had three fights and lost 1 and one draw, right? And the one you won was by decision so you must have really been intimidating in the ring. Why not fight again and show all of us clueless, theoretical pretend non-fighters just how much you know. I mean with the way you post here I was expecting a few more wins under your belt.

Oh, as to your training with Rangers and Seals where was this located? Since there are two active Ranger Battalions in the U.S. Army and neither is located in CA, one is at Camp Stewert, GA and the other is at Fort Lewis, WA. I highly doubt your claim to have trained with Rangers, at least. Perhaps you have some video to prove your claim. :D

Sihing73
08-10-2009, 08:21 PM
Can you keep multiple opponents from taking you to the ground?

Apparently you like being on the ground, it seems to be your arena of choice:eek:

Are you saying you trained yourself to roll with multiple guys????:D

Knifefighter
08-10-2009, 08:30 PM
Oh, what was your MMA record again?
7-3.
What was your record. Oh that's right. The big tough guy only beat up drunks and handcuffed guys... who knows how many women he assaulted on his watch.


Oh, as to your training with Rangers and Seals where was this located? Since there are two active Ranger Battalions in the U.S. Army and neither is located in CA, one is at Camp Stewert, GA and the other is at Fort Lewis, WA.
Yep, GA and WA was where they flew in from.
Here's a list of the other agencies that used to come in when I trained there:
http://www.gracieacademy.com/military_clients.asp

Knifefighter
08-10-2009, 08:41 PM
Also, are you going to say that in a real combat situation with the potential for multiple, armed opponents that BJJ is the art of choice???
Apparently the Rangers seem to think so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaafCFGDZ5c

But of course some clueless, theoretical, non-fighter like you thinks he knows better.

The more you guys post the more clueless you prove yourselves to be.

Liddel
08-10-2009, 09:11 PM
LOL... and the three clueless, theoretical, pretend, non-fighters post once again.

Considering the fact that I used to train with the Seals and the Rangers when they would come into the Gracie academy, I have a pretty good idea of what's what.

You and i touched on this a while back when you said they wernt so good on the ground.... did you actually do combat milling with them Dale. Don a head guard and lock horns or just roll in a BJJ school ? There is a big difference if you really have done it :rolleyes:

In my country they have adopted the C Q 'B' system developed in the seventies by the brits. Our SAS AOS(swat) STG etc all do it. Never seen the CQC system.

And if we are to belive you and T about you can only fight how you train. The intensity these guys train at in CQB would give any BJJ BB big trouble. They have what i call the mungrel in them which is way more dangerous than the best technique out there IME.

This whole thread has become d i c k measuring. LOL

DREW

Sihing73
08-10-2009, 09:34 PM
Apparently the Rangers seem to think so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaafCFGDZ5c

But of course some clueless, theoretical, non-fighter like you thinks he knows better.

The more you guys post the more clueless you prove yourselves to be.

Of course not Dale, of course you know much better than I. :o

7-3 funny I found the following links which do not seem to show that record.

http://www.mmapools.com/fighterinfo.php?id=12199

http://www.topgunmma.com/viewFighter.php?fighterid=2263

Could you kindly point me in the direction showing your 7-3 record?

Kind of like Paul Vunak also trained Navy Seals, Duncan Leong, Leung Ting and William Cheung also have trained various military and Law Enforcement agencies as well also several other artists, even many <gasp> WC instructors as well as other arts.

Heck Leo Gaje and Leung Ting have trained, and Leo continues to train, active military units in the Phillipines. Know something funny, they actually use that training in combat, for real. I wonder why they don't do BJJ down there where they would want the best. :confused:Maybe you could go down there and train them, you know show them how it should really be done. I may be able to arrange an introduction to Leo, oh wait you were a "Dog Brother" so I am sure you already know Leo, right? ;)

A lot of those doing training like to name drop, if someone, even on their own time, comes in and trains and they are a member of some "agency" then the claim to fame is there as well.

Could you perhaps provide some sort of documentation from the Military confirming the fact that you trained with anyone in the Rangers? Shoot, Paul Vunak has a letter from the military, so you should be able to dig one up easily. Perhaps PhotoShop could be your new friend. :p

aelward
08-10-2009, 10:00 PM
Since it's up here, in the first video, can someone explain the intent/mechanics in these actions? I don't mean any offence, but it looks like a lot of chasing hands to me - it seems there is no fwd intent in those tan saus on the first link.
Can even see it in the first link about 4 seconds in where he totally misses her arm/wrist.

JP

He's explaining that the trajectory of the Tan Sao (specifically, from section 3 of Siu Lum Tao) crosses over the center line. Contrary to chasing hands, he is actually covering a large area so that regardless of where her vector of attack, he is picking it up. We can tell that this is the intent of his lesson since from :10 - :14, he shows that if the Tan does not cross center, it will not cover the attack.

From what I gather from his body language after missing the attack at :04, I would guess that she was not aiming at his center? Even so, he does redirect her attack, albeit with his fingers :P And his fingers are very very tough, I've seen him dent a thin metal door with a Biu Jee form flick before. But probably not as good for those of us with not-so-tough fingers.

goju
08-10-2009, 11:24 PM
LOL... and the three clueless, theoretical, pretend, non-fighters post once again.

Considering the fact that I used to train with the Seals and the Rangers when they would come into the Gracie academy, I have a pretty good idea of what's what.
uh huh sure you did

goju
08-10-2009, 11:26 PM
7-3.
What was your record. Oh that's right. The big tough guy only beat up drunks and handcuffed guys... who knows how many women he assaulted on his watch.


Yep, GA and WA was where they flew in from.
Here's a list of the other agencies that used to come in when I trained there:
http://www.gracieacademy.com/military_clients.asp
seven three ahahahahhahahaha you lost almost half as many as you won
sheeeeesh this guy
all he is a is abjj black belt and he thinks that means he knows everything about everything
stick to grappling buddy thats all you know

goju
08-10-2009, 11:29 PM
Of course not Dale, of course you know much better than I. :o

7-3 funny I found the following links which do not seem to show that record.

http://www.mmapools.com/fighterinfo.php?id=12199

http://www.topgunmma.com/viewFighter.php?fighterid=2263

Could you kindly point me in the direction showing your 7-3 record?

Kind of like Paul Vunak also trained Navy Seals, Duncan Leong, Leung Ting and William Cheung also have trained various military and Law Enforcement agencies as well also several other artists, even many <gasp> WC instructors as well as other arts.

Heck Leo Gaje and Leung Ting have trained, and Leo continues to train, active military units in the Phillipines. Know something funny, they actually use that training in combat, for real. I wonder why they don't do BJJ down there where they would want the best. :confused:Maybe you could go down there and train them, you know show them how it should really be done. I may be able to arrange an introduction to Leo, oh wait you were a "Dog Brother" so I am sure you already know Leo, right? ;)

A lot of those doing training like to name drop, if someone, even on their own time, comes in and trains and they are a member of some "agency" then the claim to fame is there as well.

Could you perhaps provide some sort of documentation from the Military confirming the fact that you trained with anyone in the Rangers? Shoot, Paul Vunak has a letter from the military, so you should be able to dig one up easily. Perhaps PhotoShop could be your new friend. :p
yeah thats what you want to do in a real combat situation put him in the amr bar until he taps and the ref stops you
oh wait

JPinAZ
08-11-2009, 08:12 AM
He's explaining that the trajectory of the Tan Sao (specifically, from section 3 of Siu Lum Tao) crosses over the center line. Contrary to chasing hands, he is actually covering a large area so that regardless of where her vector of attack, he is picking it up. We can tell that this is the intent of his lesson since from :10 - :14, he shows that if the Tan does not cross center, it will not cover the attack.

From what I gather from his body language after missing the attack at :04, I would guess that she was not aiming at his center? Even so, he does redirect her attack, albeit with his fingers :P And his fingers are very very tough, I've seen him dent a thin metal door with a Biu Jee form flick before. But probably not as good for those of us with not-so-tough fingers.

Thanks for the reply!
I guess I see taan used quite differently. If I understand the function of taan correctly, it's used for dispersing the energy of a more straighline punch and should I] not[/I] leave the center of the body. Gate theory would suggest I change my facing when I redirect the punch so my taan is still on center of my body. This allows me to use my whole body to redirect and I can still transfer the energy down to my root throught the elbow. And this will then set my other hand in good position/range on the original CL and also strike if in the opponent really commited to the first punch.

The way it looked in the video, he was moving the attack asside with his arm, and, as you said, leaving center with the taan. Even in the begining of the form, taan goes fwd, not sideways. If it's going sideways, it still could be seen as chasing hands. And, if you are doing that, you are going to have a good chance to miss the punch if it's fast (like in the vid, and it was kinda slow). If it's intent was "covering a large area so that regardless of where her vector of attack, he is picking it up" then shouldn't he had intercepted her punch at :04 even if her punch wasn't down center?

Anyway, I've seen it used like this before and was confused as to what the intent was, thanks for sharing!

JP

-木叶-
08-11-2009, 08:16 AM
Yeah, the army and marines sure are experts at fighting without guns... they get a total of about a week or two of CQC training. Of course in your world of children black belts, that makes someone an expert.

I am speechless.

sanjuro_ronin
08-11-2009, 08:49 AM
Modern combatives is a combination of BJJ, MT and FMA.
This is what is taught to probably 90% of all US military units.
The elite units sometimes send out guys to get extra training from specialised civilian sources, typically the ones that have proven themselves in full contact fighting, guys like the Gracies and Machados from BJJ, Guys like Marc Denny of the Dog Brothers and things along those lines.
Sambo is another system, along with Judo that also gets some attention.

Ultimatewingchun
08-11-2009, 10:08 AM
....at 2:15 and watch from there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEHo4l0ucmY

sanjuro_ronin
08-11-2009, 10:19 AM
What's your point Victor?

sanjuro_ronin
08-11-2009, 10:28 AM
On a side note it shoudl be mentioned that MANY have taught H2H and Close combat to the SF of the US military, some that come to mind:
Jerry Peterson - SCARS
Frank Cucci
Paul Vunak ( at least through his students, don't recall if he trained any directly)
and others like I mentioned before.

Typically how it works is that a "drill instructor" goes out and gets qualified on a given course and coems back and teaches his unit, the results are evaluated and it is either dropped or kept with the usual modifications.

aelward
08-11-2009, 10:30 AM
Thanks for the reply!
I guess I see taan used quite differently. If I understand the function of taan correctly, it's used for dispersing the energy of a more straighline punch and should I] not[/I] leave the center of the body. Gate theory would suggest I change my facing when I redirect the punch so my taan is still on center of my body. This allows me to use my whole body to redirect and I can still transfer the energy down to my root throught the elbow. And this will then set my other hand in good position/range on the original CL and also strike if in the opponent really commited to the first punch.

The way it looked in the video, he was moving the attack asside with his arm, and, as you said, leaving center with the taan. Even in the begining of the form, taan goes fwd, not sideways. If it's going sideways, it still could be seen as chasing hands. And, if you are doing that, you are going to have a good chance to miss the punch if it's fast (like in the vid, and it was kinda slow). If it's intent was "covering a large area so that regardless of where her vector of attack, he is picking it up" then shouldn't he had intercepted her punch at :04 even if her punch wasn't down center?

Anyway, I've seen it used like this before and was confused as to what the intent was, thanks for sharing!

JP

A couple of years ago, I swore I would never get into a technical discussion online again, but here I go... :P

In our SLT, we have three different Tan Saos. The one you refer to is in section one, during the Tan-Fook-Wu, and is used as you describe.

The one in the video is from part two of section three-- where you see a lot of variation among Yip Man sub-lineages, with some schools doing a tan-jum, others doing tan-gang, and yet others doing tan-jum-gang. Sifu Lo's does the latter of the three. These motions cover a large area and are used to take attacks off center to the outside.

The third Tan Sao is in section three, coming after Bong Sao, where the elbow sinks-- the corresponding whip causes the Tan sao to rise, cover the head, and guide an attack downward.

As for the sequence at :04, who can say for sure? People are fallible, right? I'm just guessing based on his body language.

Ultimatewingchun
08-11-2009, 10:34 AM
My point is that what you see in the vid that seems to closely resemble elements of wing chun striking and defensive arm positioning is about all you'd ever see in military training that resembles wing chun.

And it's there because the specialty mode of the training is called CQD (close quarter defense).

That's it.

sanjuro_ronin
08-11-2009, 10:47 AM
My point is that what you see in the vid that seems to closely resemble elements of wing chun striking and defensive arm positioning is about all you'd ever see in military training that resembles wing chun.

And it's there because the specialty mode of the training is called CQD (close quarter defense).

That's it.

Gottcha.
:D

goju
08-11-2009, 11:35 AM
the black kokar system the sealS use look EXACTLY like wing chun

Ultimatewingchun
08-11-2009, 11:37 AM
Do you have a link to a vid of this?

sanjuro_ronin
08-11-2009, 11:38 AM
the black kokar system the sealS use look EXACTLY like wing chun

Which Team?

Ultimatewingchun
08-11-2009, 01:04 PM
You know, Paul (sanjuro)...

Because almost all real life encounters will go to close quarters very quickly, so that you don't see really that much footwork, lateral movement, feinting, jabs, etc....wing chun is better suited for a street environment than ring fighting. It's primarily a short range go-get-him striking system. So I can see how some elements of wing chun might appeal to the military trainers who did this CQD vid.

That said, I don't mean to infer that wing chun practitioners are more prepared for street combat than a boxer, kickboxer, wrestler, whoever. True preparation requires the kinds of training methods and regimen that wing chun has, for the most part, never been famous for.

Just commenting on the system itself.

sanjuro_ronin
08-11-2009, 01:14 PM
I often wonder what WC would be IF people trained it like MT or MMA, I assume it would look like what Alan's guys do because that is what they do.
At the same time I don't think anyone looking at them fighting would say "Hey, that is WC", know what I mean?

Ultimatewingchun
08-11-2009, 01:24 PM
Yes I do know what you mean. But I also think that while Alan Orr and his guys are touching some strong surface of what can be done with wing chun, there's more to wing chun that could work, imo, in nhb/mma, than what Alan and his guys are doing.

The wing chun that I see from Alan and his guys is the strong body alignment/structure, the forward pressure when the opportunity is there, and protection of the centerline by the way their hands and arms are positioned. I also like the fact that they're throwing power shots without regard for a strict "elbows-down-and-in" mentality.

But I also believe there's more wing chun that can work by way of some specific techniques (pak, lop, bil, garn, bong, etc.) and some other wing chun blindside strategy.

Pacman
08-11-2009, 01:27 PM
what do you mean "trained it like MT or MMA"? You mean train more seriously and less recreationally?

i don't think it would necessarily look like Alan's guys.

sihing
08-11-2009, 02:34 PM
Yes I do know what you mean. But I also think that while Alan Orr and his guys are touching some strong surface of what can be done with wing chun, there's more to wing chun that could work, imo, in nhb/mma, than what Alan and his guys are doing.

The wing chun that I see from Alan and his guys is the strong body alignment/structure, the forward pressure when the opportunity is there, and protection of the centerline by the way their hands and arms are positioned. I also like the fact that they're throwing power shots without regard for a strict "elbows-down-and-in" mentality.

But I also believe there's more wing chun that can work by way of some specific techniques (pak, lop, bil, garn, bong, etc.) and some other wing chun blindside strategy.

You know, from my investigation, all good WC uses the blindside theory/concept. I just recently watched Alan vids, and he uses the blindside concept all the time, whether in x arm or parallel positioning (excellent videos by the way, I recommend them). I see it in WSL and Gary Lam WC as well. Also, techniques will come out when needed, but like chin na stuff, it is not planned to use a biu, pak, lop or whatever, the key thing is to hit, if a bridge has developed then that is even better for us, as we should dominate while in contacted striking situations.

James

goju
08-11-2009, 04:03 PM
w th wing chun in competitive environments the ony things thats hard about bringing it to there is not how much of wing chun cant be used because its ineffective but because a lot of the techniques are illegal
look at wing chun or actually most asian styles for that matter we dont fight "fair" in the sense. a lot of our technique involve stop kickin the knee joint (illegal in competion) arm breaks( illegal in competion) groin and eye attacks (illegal in competion)
its hard for a tma stylist to adapt his style to a ring or cage because they werent designed to do that

goju
08-11-2009, 04:04 PM
Which Team?
ill try to find some pics of it and stuff i first saw it about five years ago

Liddel
08-11-2009, 04:05 PM
If your interested in a peek at the NZ SAS CQB vs USA CQC CQD check out this clip from a Doco here...

About 3 mins in you get a good peek at the surface of CQB, wicked Doco series even though im somewhat bias.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OFcMM5KxcM

Ive had the bennifit of experiencing alot of the techs through people i know and there are many similarities in strategy and mechanics of VT even though the training is vastly different. Its brutal but effective and what you see is rather tame for TV.

DREW

Knifefighter
08-11-2009, 04:53 PM
Could you kindly point me in the direction showing your 7-3 record?

Dave,
I'll do one better than that. I'll post clips of the fights after you've posted the clips of you going full contact against resisisting opponents.

Oh, wait a minute... since you've never gone full out against resisting opponents and never will, I guess I won't be able to do that.

Liddel
08-11-2009, 04:58 PM
Ah yeah, regardless what Dale posts - liked or not - giving him S h i t about his 7 -3 record vs someones non existent record is just plain clutching at straws :o

Im undefeated - im 0 - 0 LOL

DREW

Pacman
08-11-2009, 05:31 PM
the thing is. his record is used as the pedestal upon which he uses to look down on others.

so why not post vids of the fights unless there are some reservations...which im thinking there are

Sihing73
08-11-2009, 06:25 PM
Dave,
I'll do one better than that. I'll post clips of the fights after you've posted the clips of you going full contact against resisisting opponents.

Oh, wait a minute... since you've never gone full out against resisting opponents and never will, I guess I won't be able to do that.

Sorry Dale, unlike you I have never tried to put everyone who does not do things my way down and puff myself up like some authority.

I have no interest in competing, already said that, most of my fights were several years ago and I tend to not go looking for trouble so, alas no video, unless you want to get together, I'd be more than happy to video that meeting and it could be posted on youtube. But we all know that will never happen either :rolleyes:

Sorry but just as you feel I am a BS no experience fantasy fighter, etc I tend to feel kind of sorry for you.

I mean after all, you had a few fights and really did not do all that well, plus your fights were most likely against other scrubs with no real skill. If you really had a 7-3 record you would have no problem point in that direction to prove you at least did something.

Also, as to your training with Rangers and Seals, it is hardly likely that some nobody like you would even be included in any type of official training program. Sorry to say it but you just are not that good to be a part of any type of Elite Military Training Program.

Seems to me that you make a lot of big claims but when it comes time for you to back them up you sort of choke up. Now me on the other hand never made any big claims to being a street fighting champion, I simply posted some experiences I had which you chose not to believe, and I am fine with that.

As I once told an old girlfriend who accused me of cheating on her: her believing it or not believing it neither made it true or false. I rolled over and went to sleep, she was kind of mad at that........and Dale to be honest you can believe what you want, it makes little difference to me as your opinions are not relevant to what I may or may not have done. On the other hand if I had a PRO FIGHT record and was questioned on it, I would have no problem posting the proof.

The only reason I even opted to post concerning you was your complete disregard for anyone who does not do as you do and the constant putting down of an art which, to be blunt, you were not intelligent enough to grasp and make work. Instead you gravitated to BJJ, which is fine and I am glad you found your niche. Too bad you were not good enough with that art to estalbish any type of viable, or impressive record.

goju
08-11-2009, 07:35 PM
the thing is. his record is used as the pedestal upon which he uses to look down on others.

so why not post vids of the fights unless there are some reservations...which im thinking there are
if he was a great fighter hed be well known end of story

sanjuro_ronin
08-12-2009, 05:57 AM
w th wing chun in competitive environments the ony things thats hard about bringing it to there is not how much of wing chun cant be used because its ineffective but because a lot of the techniques are illegal
look at wing chun or actually most asian styles for that matter we dont fight "fair" in the sense. a lot of our technique involve stop kickin the knee joint (illegal in competion) arm breaks( illegal in competion) groin and eye attacks (illegal in competion)
its hard for a tma stylist to adapt his style to a ring or cage because they werent designed to do that

I have had the previlage to fight a few WC under no-rules back in the 90's when I was under Nelson Chan and the UFC was making its mark, all those things were legal and none of them made any difference.
Of course I was the better fighter, more experinced and more well rounded as a MA, nevertheless my opponents were able to do whatever they wanted and while they tried, "dirty tactics" don't fair well VS superiour technique, skill and ability.
As fro my background, it was ALL TMA at that time, I only add BJJ and MT later.

sanjuro_ronin
08-12-2009, 05:59 AM
the thing is. his record is used as the pedestal upon which he uses to look down on others.

so why not post vids of the fights unless there are some reservations...which im thinking there are

There are no reservations, Dale has ZERO to prove to anyone, those of us who have been here long enough know that Dale talks the talks and he walks the walk.
I have seen his clips, grappling, MMA and stick fighting and I have also been told by those I have a great respect for that the man knows his ****.
He's an original Dog Brother for pete's sake !
Just that alone puts him in a class all his own on this forum.

sanjuro_ronin
08-12-2009, 06:04 AM
If your interested in a peek at the NZ SAS CQB vs USA CQC CQD check out this clip from a Doco here...

About 3 mins in you get a good peek at the surface of CQB, wicked Doco series even though im somewhat bias.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OFcMM5KxcM

Ive had the bennifit of experiencing alot of the techs through people i know and there are many similarities in strategy and mechanics of VT even though the training is vastly different. Its brutal but effective and what you see is rather tame for TV.

DREW

While my time in the military was devoted to more "long range" action, as some here know ;), I had many chances to train with some of the elite guys in H2H, not only here in Canada, but some British SAS and a few Spec Ops guys too, durning "exchange programs".
There is a reason that the military bring in or go out to, civilian instructors, H2H is just not that big a priority that it is trained to the high level that civilians do it.
There is a lot of brutal stuff that is taught, heck I have a few coup-de-grace that if I shoudl you, most would **** your pants, its quote irrelevant though.
Core skills is what makes you able to apply the "too deadly" and if you have those core skills, the "too deadly" becomes somewhat irrelevant.

TenTigers
08-12-2009, 07:42 AM
There are no reservations, Dale has ZERO to prove to anyone, those of us who have been here long enough know that Dale talks the talks and he walks the walk.
I have seen his clips, grappling, MMA and stick fighting and I have also been told by those I have a great respect for that the man knows his ****.
He's an original Dog Brother for pete's sake !
Just that alone puts him in a class all his own on this forum.
Granted.
Now, what is his experience with Wing Chun?
How many years, and under whom?

sanjuro_ronin
08-12-2009, 08:51 AM
Granted.
Now, what is his experience with Wing Chun?
How many years, and under whom?

I don't know but since his critique of WC is based on its effectiveness as a fighting method and the results of its training methods, I don't know how much that matters.

JPinAZ
08-12-2009, 09:00 AM
I don't know but since his critique of WC is based on its effectiveness as a fighting method and the results of its training methods, I don't know how much that matters.

Actually, isn't his "critique of WC" really based on his inability to use it effectively when fighting? That in no way is a critique of the WCK system itself, just either his (in)experience with it, or a question of his teacher's ability to impart fighting skill (or both).
That's like someone that has a 0-10 record as an amature boxer saying boxing training methods don't work. Just because a fighting method can't be made to work by one individual, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the system.

So maybe it would be better put as "his critique of WC is based on his effectiveness in using it as a fighting method and the results of his training methods"

sanjuro_ronin
08-12-2009, 09:05 AM
Actually, isn't his "critique of WC" really based on his inability to use it effectively when fighting? That in no way is a critique of the WCK system itself, just either his (in)experience with it, or a question of his teacher's ability to impart fighting skill (or both).
That's like someone that has a 0-10 record as an amature boxer saying boxing training methods don't work. Just because a fighting method can't be made to work by one individual, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the system.

So maybe it would be better put as "his critique of WC is based on his effectiveness in using it as a fighting method and the results of his training methods"

Actually I think his critique is based on the fact that he has never seen/felt effective WC.
But I won't speak for Dale, he certainly doesn't need me or anyone too, as we know, LOL !
Of course instead of attack him you can attack his view point and produce evidence of how effective WC is, that oughta shut him up.
:D

Knifefighter
08-12-2009, 09:31 AM
There is a reason that the military bring in or go out to, civilian instructors, H2H is just not that big a priority that it is trained to the high level that civilians do it..
Exactly.

The fact is, since 99.9% of what military personnel do is not CQC related, 99.9% of their training time will be spent doing other types of training.

Military personnel spend more time running than they do doing CQC training, and in no way, shape or form can they compete with competitive civilian runners who spend much more time doing running training. If they aren't as good in something they spend more of their time doing, they're not, somehow, going to be better in something they spend even less time doing.

To think that a military training makes someone an awesome CQC fighter just shows how out of touch with reality the theoretical, pretend, non-fighters are.

Knifefighter
08-12-2009, 09:34 AM
Actually I think his critique is based on the fact that he has never seen/felt effective WC.
But I won't speak for Dale, he certainly doesn't need me or anyone too, as we know, LOL !
Of course instead of attack him you can attack his view point and produce evidence of how effective WC is, that oughta shut him up.
:D

My critique is based on anything for which posters make claims for, yet can provide no evidence for.

Notice how I have never made negative comments for any clips that have shown live fighting against other fully resisting opponents. If anything, I have given props to the WC guys doing the fighting on the clips, while several of the pretend, theoretical, non-fighting WC people have torn them down.

Knifefighter
08-12-2009, 09:38 AM
As far as my clips, I put them up to show good faith when several other posters said they would be willing to put up clips of themselves doing techniques they said were realistic against resisting opponents, which never happened... hmmm, what a surprise.

Over the years, I am one of the only four posters here who have put up clips of themselves actually fighting full contact against resisting opponents.

JPinAZ
08-12-2009, 09:51 AM
Actually I think his critique is based on the fact that he has never seen/felt effective WC.
But I won't speak for Dale, he certainly doesn't need me or anyone too, as we know, LOL !
Of course instead of attack him you can attack his view point and produce evidence of how effective WC is, that oughta shut him up.
:D

haha, well, no one is speaking for him here..... except you and T :) (just friendly jabbing at ya)
FWIW, I'm not attacking him at all, just making a distinction between someone openly admitting they couldn't make WCK work and them saying that WCK doesn't work - there's a difference. One doesn't equal the other..

As far as me producing evidence to Dale, what do suggest, I post up some videos of me taking out a bunch of MMA guys? Sure, I'll get right on that - I care that much what he thinks :D
Besides, what's the point? I think his mind is more than made up.

Knifefighter
08-12-2009, 09:58 AM
FWIW, I'm not attacking him at all, just making a distinction between someone openly admitting they couldn't make WCK work and them saying that WCK doesn't work -
I never said no one can make it work. A few people obviously are. My claim is that the majority of people who think they can make it work for real are as deluded as the students of the chi master.



As far as me producing evidence to Dale, what do suggest, I post up some videos of me taking out a bunch of MMA guys? Sure, I'll get right on that - I care that much what he thinks :D
You care enough to make posts about it. Why just not do a quick clip of you fighting full contact against other resisting opponents?


Besides, what's the point? I think his mind is more than made up.
My mind's not "made up". I was skeptical about Alan and his guys, but I'm pretty sure they are making things work, despite what I originally thought.

LSWCTN1
08-12-2009, 01:54 PM
Granted.
Now, what is his experience with Wing Chun?
How many years, and under whom?


Actually, isn't his "critique of WC" really based on his inability to use it effectively when fighting? That in no way is a critique of the WCK system itself, just either his (in)experience with it, or a question of his teacher's ability to impart fighting skill (or both).
That's like someone that has a 0-10 record as an amature boxer saying boxing training methods don't work. Just because a fighting method can't be made to work by one individual, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the system.

So maybe it would be better put as "his critique of WC is based on his effectiveness in using it as a fighting method and the results of his training methods"


Hawkins Cheung, among others.

this is why i asked this question
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=951815&postcount=42

goju
08-12-2009, 01:57 PM
dale had a full on melt down on the striking graplling time frame thread lol:D

Liddel
08-12-2009, 05:49 PM
I had many chances to train with some of the elite guys in H2H, not only here in Canada, but some British SAS and a few Spec Ops guys too, durning "exchange programs".
There is a reason that the military bring in or go out to, civilian instructors, H2H is just not that big a priority that it is trained to the high level that civilians do it.

I hear you, but there in lies my point. They go to outside people for further training, whats in that vid is the beggining of a long road of consistent training.
The people whom ive experienced these types of training through do not do a starter course and stop. In thier down time they train like and with civies...they go to competency courses often to pass through first second and third phases of training. And the Civies in my country that teach CQB to the pros are ex millitary ex police people themselves.

Im not trying to dictate here, just offer my experience and im ligitimatly interested, which is why i asked Dale if he milled or just rolled in training with these people, because we know there is a difference right ?



There is a lot of brutal stuff that is taught, heck I have a few coup-de-grace that if I shoudl you, most would **** your pants, its quote irrelevant though.

Oh, now i want to hear about it Paul :p
Ive seen some brutal stuff myself - if Occupational health and safety saw half the things i saw least of which milling with guys getting knee stomped then repetitive stomps to the head all the while the insructor yelling "get the f-uck up" they would probably faint. LOL



Core skills is what makes you able to apply the "too deadly" and if you have those core skills, the "too deadly" becomes somewhat irrelevant.

No argument here bro.

Frost
08-13-2009, 01:38 AM
Actually, isn't his "critique of WC" really based on his inability to use it effectively when fighting? That in no way is a critique of the WCK system itself, just either his (in)experience with it, or a question of his teacher's ability to impart fighting skill (or both).
That's like someone that has a 0-10 record as an amature boxer saying boxing training methods don't work. Just because a fighting method can't be made to work by one individual, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the system.

So maybe it would be better put as "his critique of WC is based on his effectiveness in using it as a fighting method and the results of his training methods"

But if someone does critique amateur boxing based on their inability to make it work you can shut them up with hundreds of examples of people making it work. Why can't people shut Dale up simply by showing him it is a valid fighting method? If only a few schools can be seen making the system work then isn't his criticism of the system and its training methods valid?

sanjuro_ronin
08-13-2009, 05:48 AM
Oh, now i want to hear about it Paul :p
Ive seen some brutal stuff myself - if Occupational health and safety saw half the things i saw least of which milling with guys getting knee stomped then repetitive stomps to the head all the while the insructor yelling "get the f-uck up" they would probably faint. LOL





Nah, you really don't, LOL !
Killing is not like the movies that's why when people start mentioning that they'd do this and that, I kind of just roll my eyes and say "whatever".
Killing is messy and you kave to l ive with it, forever and answer for it.
But I digress, the point being that if you can't do the simplest of things ( The core) well, then forget that "too deadly"crap.

JPinAZ
08-13-2009, 09:48 AM
But if someone does critique amateur boxing based on their inability to make it work you can shut them up with hundreds of examples of people making it work. Why can't people shut Dale up simply by showing him it is a valid fighting method? If only a few schools can be seen making the system work then isn't his criticism of the system and its training methods valid?

He says that few people can actually make WCK work, how does he know? Has he trained with or watched every WCK pracitioner spar or train? of course not! His opinion is only based on his own inabilities to make WCK work, which is totally fair. I have no issues with that.

I agree though, maybe he can't find good examples with what's on the internet. And I might agree with him, maybe there isn't a whole lot of good examples to be found there. But, that's not all wck. And is it really on us to prove to him anyway? Or anyone? Who is he anyway? Just some guy that couldn't make his own WCK work and went and trained some other stuff. And I give him props for going out and fighting like he has. But not everyone here shares his opinion that WCK suck. Since he's not a WCK guy, why is he even here? Is he trying to save us all? haha
Or maybe he's just a troll..

Sounds like someone else here...

JPinAZ
08-13-2009, 10:00 AM
I never said no one can make it work. A few people obviously are. My claim is that the majority of people who think they can make it work for real are as deluded as the students of the chi master.

Ok, you've made your claim (for the bazillionth time), now what?


You care enough to make posts about it. Why just not do a quick clip of you fighting full contact against other resisting opponents?

My mind's not "made up". I was skeptical about Alan and his guys, but I'm pretty sure they are making things work, despite what I originally thought.

Haha, what's a clip going to prove to you? Why should I have to prove anything to you anyway? Who are you? I put in my work, I prove things out to myself, I don't need an ego boost by trying to show someone else how great I think I am.

But, I respect the fact that you're mind isn't totally made up. Maybe you stay on these WCK threads because you are holding onto a bit of hope that you might find a way to make WCK work for you. ;)

Knifefighter
08-13-2009, 10:09 AM
I put in my work, I prove things out to myself,

So do the chi blast guys.

Lucas
08-13-2009, 10:35 AM
Who is the wing chun guy here? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyrNR39m3E)

i dont have sound at work and was just curious what you guys think of this match. also who is the wing chun fighter here, and what wing chun technique does he utilize in this match?

Lucas
08-13-2009, 10:37 AM
actually i answered my own question by watching a second video with the same fighter.

18 second KO? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ9sB0pumXU&NR=1&feature=fvwp)

Yoshiyahu
08-13-2009, 05:48 PM
So do the chi blast guys.

Please video tape your chi blast...I love to critque your fantasy chi.

Liddel
08-13-2009, 08:22 PM
Nah, you really don't, LOL !
Killing is not like the movies that's why when people start mentioning that they'd do this and that, I kind of just roll my eyes and say "whatever".
Killing is messy and you kave to l ive with it, forever and answer for it.
But I digress, the point being that if you can't do the simplest of things ( The core) well, then forget that "too deadly"crap.

Yeah no i dont wish to hear about killing, i didnt realise that was where you were going with that... i though you might have bad injury stories like my stomping example - things that take the training to the extreme etc. Hell ive had times at other VT school where a student glanced a blow on my face during Gor Sau and stoped to say sorry ... i said no probs that what im here for....LOL. Some people just lack the aggression.

Ive never been an advocate of Dim Mak or preasure points use in fighting even though the "theory " has merit and totally agree with your core skills point.

Dale can put foward his experience with the Seals delta etc and im not discounting that nor can i argue with his experience but those people i know who do CQB were martial artists long before thier training in it which is exactly why they were drawn to it.

I understand alot of them dont go deep into H2H in the military training, but to assume that the personality types of these individuals means throughout the world that for the most part they arent as good as Civilian H2H exponents is narrow minded IMO. The type that gets into it here is generally someone already seasoned in one or several MA's because the intensity of this training means if they were fighting virgins they would be so horrified they wouldnt come back on day two.

And Dale still hasnt confirmed if was full out fighting - the likes of combat milling - or just rolling with these guys which would put his opinion of thier fighting ability into sharper focus and proper context.

DREW

Drake
09-09-2009, 03:23 PM
I hear US army MP's carry tazers and other non-lethal weapons to bypass any scuffles that may occur.

We had a guy a few weekends ago... was drunk. MP tazered him... he fell... he rose to one knee... MP felt threatened.... tazered him again.

Drake
09-09-2009, 03:28 PM
Exactly.

The fact is, since 99.9% of what military personnel do is not CQC related, 99.9% of their training time will be spent doing other types of training.

Military personnel spend more time running than they do doing CQC training, and in no way, shape or form can they compete with competitive civilian runners who spend much more time doing running training. If they aren't as good in something they spend more of their time doing, they're not, somehow, going to be better in something they spend even less time doing.

To think that a military training makes someone an awesome CQC fighter just shows how out of touch with reality the theoretical, pretend, non-fighters are.

Actually, the Army Combatives program, which Sanjuro explained pretty much perfectly, is being taught across the board, because we ARE getting involved in a LOT of CQC while room clearing and detainee ops.

Secondly, the Army has a good number of elite runners, and you'll see them in top form at the Army 10-miler. We've also got a fair share of ultra-marathoners, along with the guys who can blitz out their 2-mile run times.

If you think Army fighters are not effective, then I encourage you to practice with a Level 4 Combatives soldier. I've even seen, firsthand, Level 2 guys move so quickly and powerfully that the opponent couldn't tap out before requiring a trip to the hospital due to blood being cut off to the brain.

Do you have any prior service at all, or are you just making this up?

Knifefighter
09-10-2009, 02:45 PM
If you think Army fighters are not effective, then I encourage you to practice with a Level 4 Combatives soldier.
Like I said, I trained with most of them at the Gracie Academy. Since I was one of the more advanced guys there, I was one of the people who would spar against them.


I've even seen, firsthand, Level 2 guys move so quickly and powerfully that the opponent couldn't tap out before requiring a trip to the hospital due to blood being cut off to the brain.
LOL @ having to go to the hospital from a quick blood choke... I've been doing this long enough to know the b.s.er's when I see them and his statement is a classic example of complete b.s. The fact is, a choke can be held for a period of time after someone loses consciousness without any adverse affects... happens all the time in BJJ and you don't see people being whisked off to the hospital.


Do you have any prior service at all, or are you just making this up?
I'm currently providing some supplemental training a group of marines who are going to be deployed to Afghanistan. I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what combat-ready military personnel are capable of when it comes to CQC.

The fact is, training military troops to elite levels in unarmed fighting would be a huge inefficiency of both time and money. There just isn't time for this. They have other jobs to do... not to mention the fact that 99.999% of their combat will be done with weapons.

Lucas
09-10-2009, 03:32 PM
The fact is, training military troops to elite levels in unarmed fighting would be a huge inefficiency of both time and money. There just isn't time for this. They have other jobs to do... .

isnt this also why civs are used for a portion of unarmed training? it seems that the highest level of unarmed skills would come from civilians who have the time to train to that level of expertise.

Wayfaring
09-10-2009, 04:38 PM
If you think Army fighters are not effective, then I encourage you to practice with a Level 4 Combatives soldier. I've even seen, firsthand, Level 2 guys move so quickly and powerfully that the opponent couldn't tap out before requiring a trip to the hospital due to blood being cut off to the brain.

Actually, most of the Combatives instructors I've met that have been any good at all usually are BJJ blue or purple belts who have had a lot more time outside of combatives training to obtain some mat skills. Every single one of them invites BJJ schools to come in and roll with their soldiers to give them exposure to people with more mat time. One local BJJ black belt just won a contract to teach Combatives to the Army.

There are a handful of soldiers that compete in the Combatives tournaments who the top among them military wide are good amateur level MMA fighters.

But your run of the mill Level 4 Combatives soldier that I have seen typically gets tapped out by 1 year BJJ white belts, who move so quickly and powerfully that they don't trip over themselves quite as often. I've only seen 2 of the most stubborn or stupid that is too prideful to tap and gets choked unconscious. They didn't go to the hospital, but got woken up and reamed out by their Combatives instructor.

Knifefighter
09-10-2009, 04:47 PM
I've only seen 2 of the most stubborn or stupid that is too prideful to tap and gets choked unconscious. They didn't go to the hospital, but got woken up and reamed out by their Combatives instructor.
The fact that he thought a quick choke out would send someone to the hospital shows that he is making things up. Anyone who has actually done submissions with chokes knows that this is completely unbased.

Frost
09-11-2009, 03:50 AM
The fact that he thought a quick choke out would send someone to the hospital shows that he is making things up. Anyone who has actually done submissions with chokes knows that this is completely unbased.


True everyone who has been grappling a while and has competed has experienced (or seen) someone being put to sleep with a choke when they did not tap in time, usually the person applying the choke or the ref realises something is wrong, they put the guy into recover and when he comes round remind him that tapping is a good idea. Now trips to the hospital are much more common if they don’t tap to an arm or leg lock in time

I have trained with a few army guys over the years and most of them only ever had rudimental training in martial arts. Even the more elite guys (Para’s, royal marines) only got any form of extended unarmed training when about to be deployed to northern Ireland, and then only in some basic compliance locks for use on protesters etc, back then it simply wasn’t a big part of their role. Milling was used but for mental/physical toughness than anything else. This was a while back so things might have changed but I suspect not a great deal.

Drake
09-11-2009, 04:10 AM
Like I said, I trained with most of them at the Gracie Academy. Since I was one of the more advanced guys there, I was one of the people who would spar against them.


LOL @ having to go to the hospital from a quick blood choke... I've been doing this long enough to know the b.s.er's when I see them and his statement is a classic example of complete b.s. The fact is, a choke can be held for a period of time after someone loses consciousness without any adverse affects... happens all the time in BJJ and you don't see people being whisked off to the hospital.


I'm currently providing some supplemental training a group of marines who are going to be deployed to Afghanistan. I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what combat-ready military personnel are capable of when it comes to CQC.

The fact is, training military troops to elite levels in unarmed fighting would be a huge inefficiency of both time and money. There just isn't time for this. They have other jobs to do... not to mention the fact that 99.999% of their combat will be done with weapons.

Uh yeah... seeing as I was there watching the bout when it happened, I find your rebuttal to be pointless. I don't know who taught you how to choke, but clearly you've been taught incorrectly. I've been shown the proper way to choke, and it had me down in about 4 seconds... or less. It would appear you haven't been.

Drake
09-11-2009, 04:14 AM
The fact that he thought a quick choke out would send someone to the hospital shows that he is making things up. Anyone who has actually done submissions with chokes knows that this is completely unbased.

Again. I was there and saw it happen. You can say whatever you like, and it won't change the fact that myself and about 50 other people standing there witnessed it.

YOU are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about, and it is clear that YOU are the one who doesn't understand chokes. I'm done with this discussion. None of you are even IN the US Army, so I don't get how you'd be a SME on Army Combatives. Guesswork and anecdotes, perhaps.

sanjuro_ronin
09-11-2009, 05:44 AM
FYI Drake, Knifefighter is a 2nd degree BB in BJJ, he knows about chokes.

I am not saying that you didn't see what you saw, because you obviously did, I am saying that sometimes we don't see what we think we see.
EX:
Not too long ago I was at a bar-b-que and some guys that are into MMA are talking about **** and chokes come up and one guy says he can choke anyone out and tries and all he is doing is cranking people and squeezing their necks.
One of the guys there, my wifes cousin says I do MA and the guy choking people asks which? I mention some of my qualifications and then he tries to choke me, which he can't because he doesn't know how to, he is just squeezing hard, nothing more, so I do it to him and I casually show how he is doing it wrong, squeezing the neck into the chest instead of bringing the elbows together.
I do this lightly and he says that way doens't work because he is not choked out, I said that if he was OK with it, I would choke him out, he says I can try but his neck is to big.
Short of it, he is out and learns a valuable lesson.
The point is someone says "Holy crap, you choked him out in seconds !!"
I didn't it, how do I know?
I counted to 8 and he was probably gone in less but out cold in 8.
I then woke him up and he didn't even have a mark on his neck.

Drake
09-11-2009, 06:20 AM
FYI Drake, Knifefighter is a 2nd degree BB in BJJ, he knows about chokes.

I am not saying that you didn't see what you saw, because you obviously did, I am saying that sometimes we don't see what we think we see.
EX:
Not too long ago I was at a bar-b-que and some guys that are into MMA are talking about **** and chokes come up and one guy says he can choke anyone out and tries and all he is doing is cranking people and squeezing their necks.
One of the guys there, my wifes cousin says I do MA and the guy choking people asks which? I mention some of my qualifications and then he tries to choke me, which he can't because he doesn't know how to, he is just squeezing hard, nothing more, so I do it to him and I casually show how he is doing it wrong, squeezing the neck into the chest instead of bringing the elbows together.
I do this lightly and he says that way doens't work because he is not choked out, I said that if he was OK with it, I would choke him out, he says I can try but his neck is to big.
Short of it, he is out and learns a valuable lesson.
The point is someone says "Holy crap, you choked him out in seconds !!"
I didn't it, how do I know?
I counted to 8 and he was probably gone in less but out cold in 8.
I then woke him up and he didn't even have a mark on his neck.

I'm saying I saw a cadre member who failed to properly monitor the bout, a very VERY fast friend of mine (he had prior MA experience, I think it was a Japanese style), and a guy who was dark purple in a matter of moments. The guy couldn't tap out, because from I understood, he couldn't (this I can't verify) due to one reason or another. The guy DID go to the hospital, but he was back with us the next day.

That is the only incident like that I saw happen during roughly 40 weeks of training in this stuff (it was a few times a week during morning PT). Everything else was arm bar/lock injuries, like someone mentioned before. The incident happened at OCS over at Ft. Benning. Ft. Sill was relatively injury free, but we had several injuries at Ft. Huachuca, due to the cadre upping the intensity.

sanjuro_ronin
09-11-2009, 06:25 AM
I am not saying it didn't happen, I am saying that he probably held the choke longer than he should have and it may have took them longer than they liked to revive the guy, so they sent him to the hospital, I can see that happening.
Some people, a small percentage, are hyper-sensitive to chokes, they have an "over active" carotid sinus and that could have been the situation here, I don't know.
Typically chokes (blood chokes) are very safe.

Drake
09-11-2009, 06:31 AM
I am not saying it didn't happen, I am saying that he probably held the choke longer than he should have and it may have took them longer than they liked to revive the guy, so they sent him to the hospital, I can see that happening.
Some people, a small percentage, are hyper-sensitive to chokes, they have an "over active" carotid sinus and that could have been the situation here, I don't know.
Typically chokes (blood chokes) are very safe.

I do know the guy who was choked out was a douchebag. :D

It's just a rumor, but some guys from his platoon suggested that he probably didn't want to lose, so he refused to tap.

Sihing73
09-11-2009, 06:38 AM
Typically chokes (blood chokes) are very safe.

Hello,

FWIW, I agree, even Dale and I are pretty much in agreement as to the safety of chokes :eek:

When applied to cut off the blood supply to the brain a person can be put out fairly quickly. A person can survive for several minutes without blood/oxygen to the brain without suffering permenant damage, some of this forum may have more experience with loss of oxygen to the brain than others ;).

There have been cases where a person was deprived of oxygen for up to eight minutes without suffering harm. I believe there are even cases where a person was underwater for much longer, but other circumstances come into play such as water temp etc.

Point is, a well applied choke can take someone out without doing serious damage. Usually the problems come about when the choke is applies too long or improperly.

Oh, fwiw I was in the Army although so long ago that I am doubtless out of touch with current training methods.

Drake
09-11-2009, 06:44 AM
Hello,

FWIW, I agree, even Dale and I are pretty much in agreement as to the safety of chokes :eek:

When applied to cut off the blood supply to the brain a person can be put out fairly quickly. A person can survive for several minutes without blood/oxygen to the brain without suffering permenant damage, some of this forum may have more experience with loss of oxygen to the brain than others ;).

There have been cases where a person was deprived of oxygen for up to eight minutes without suffering harm. I believe there are even cases where a person was underwater for much longer, but other circumstances come into play such as water temp etc.

Point is, a well applied choke can take someone out without doing serious damage. Usually the problems come about when the choke is applies too long or improperly.

Oh, fwiw I was in the Army although so long ago that I am doubtless out of touch with current training methods.


Yes, they made a lot of changes. I came in back in 1999, and what we were taught isn't even remotely the same as what is being taught now. The whole punch /kick /hip toss routine is completely gone now. I basically had to relearn everything.

Knifefighter
09-11-2009, 07:40 AM
YOU are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about, and it is clear that YOU are the one who doesn't understand chokes.
LOL... I've been training for over 15 years in a style that specializes in chokes.

Meanwhile, you saw one guy who got choked out with a choke that may or may not have been held too long and you extrapolate that to mean that military guys are somehow awesome unarmed CQC fighters. If anything, that just proves how low level their ability is.

Drake
09-11-2009, 08:20 AM
LOL... I've been training for over 15 years in a style that specializes in chokes.

Meanwhile, you saw one guy who got choked out with a choke that may or may not have been held too long and you extrapolate that to mean that military guys are somehow awesome unarmed CQC fighters. If anything, that just proves how low level their ability is.

Uh, no. I said I saw a guy get choked out, attributed it to poor supervision, and as indicated, the guy may have been choked out for too long. This was during a very basic level 1 trainup.

Not all military guys are CQC pros, and if you understood the Army, you'd know that emphasis on CQC falls mainly on combat arms, who are, except for the new guys, Level 2 or higher. If you aren't familiar with the different levels, which I'm betting you aren't, it wouldn't serve you well to comment on it, regardless of whatever skill you might have in BJJ. You probably aren't even aware that we move away from BJJ further on in the training.

Drake
09-11-2009, 08:24 AM
And I'm done. I don't do the WC thing, so I really should just move on. If anyone wants to continue this, please PM me. Otherwise, no need to drag this out any further.

Knifefighter
09-11-2009, 08:30 AM
Uh, no. I said I saw a guy get choked out, attributed it to poor supervision, and as indicated, the guy may have been choked out for too long. This was during a very basic level 1 trainup.

Looks like you changed your story.


I've even seen, firsthand, Level 2 guys move so quickly and powerfully that the opponent couldn't tap out before requiring a trip to the hospital due to blood being cut off to the brain.

Wayfaring
09-11-2009, 09:55 AM
Not all military guys are CQC pros, and if you understood the Army, you'd know that emphasis on CQC falls mainly on combat arms, who are, except for the new guys, Level 2 or higher. If you aren't familiar with the different levels, which I'm betting you aren't, it wouldn't serve you well to comment on it, regardless of whatever skill you might have in BJJ. You probably aren't even aware that we move away from BJJ further on in the training.

There's a separation there between the CQC training and what it trains, and some of the soldiers in these classes.

A lot of people who do the military for a career seem to have an attraction to hand to hand combat, and as such drift towards training martial arts outside of military classes. I train with a lot of soldiers, from privates in the Army to a F-18 pilot. After a few years experience in training with local MMA teams, it's amazing how much more skilled they become in hand to hand :p But it has nothing to do with military training, other than their career choice may influence their interest in it, and Combatives classes may spark the interest to train it more. Actually now that I think about it 2 local amateur MMA fighters at our gym are active duty Army. And I'm sure they went through Combatives too.

Even the event you witnessed was probably someone with a lot more outside experience choking out a ****y soldier. That probably wasn't the direct result of the Combatives training.

Drake
09-11-2009, 10:48 AM
There's a separation there between the CQC training and what it trains, and some of the soldiers in these classes.

A lot of people who do the military for a career seem to have an attraction to hand to hand combat, and as such drift towards training martial arts outside of military classes. I train with a lot of soldiers, from privates in the Army to a F-18 pilot. After a few years experience in training with local MMA teams, it's amazing how much more skilled they become in hand to hand :p But it has nothing to do with military training, other than their career choice may influence their interest in it, and Combatives classes may spark the interest to train it more. Actually now that I think about it 2 local amateur MMA fighters at our gym are active duty Army. And I'm sure they went through Combatives too.

Even the event you witnessed was probably someone with a lot more outside experience choking out a ****y soldier. That probably wasn't the direct result of the Combatives training.


Just about everyone who goes past Level 2 also hits up exterior training venues. I'd say a great majority of those are into the MMA arena. We were on a ride back from inprocessing some redeploying troops, and I swear they talked MMA for the entire 30 minute ride.

Drake
09-11-2009, 10:51 AM
Looks like you changed your story.

Not really. I admit, I shouldn't have included the superfluous hospital trip, as it was irrelevant. The point I was attempting to make is that he moved extremely fast and extremely smoothly, and the choke was extremely effective.

GeneChing
12-06-2018, 09:22 AM
This isn't the U.S. Army for our Wing Chun in US Army (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?54958-Wing-Chun-in-US-Army) thread. It's the Armed Forces of Malta. Still counts for our Military & TMA (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?62453-Military-amp-TMA) thread.


Soldiers of Armed Forces of Malta learn Chinese martial arts (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-11/14/c_137604488.htm)
Source: Xinhua| 2018-11-14 08:44:13|Editor: Yang Yi

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-11/14/137604488_15421561050631n.jpg
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-11/14/137604488_15421561052171n.jpg
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-11/14/137604488_15421561053081n.jpg
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-11/14/137604488_15421561054071n.jpg
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-11/14/137604488_15421561055881n.jpg

Soldiers of Armed Forces of Malta (AFM) practise Wing Chun moves in Luca, Malta, on Nov. 13, 2018. In cooperation with the Malta Martial Arts Association and the local martial arts community, China Cultural Center in Malta invited Zheng Zujie, a martial arts instructor and Wing Chun master from China, to provide Wing Chun Military Fighting Training Course for the AFM on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Yuan Yun)