mantis grabbing speed [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

baldmantiz

06-12-2001, 09:07 PM

Oh do come down to earth and stop posing in that whushu cat stance on your home page. It looks so stupid.

*- It isn't wushu...it's a MANTIS stance...do you even know anything about praying mantis ego?

Why are your mantis hooks so far apart? Why is your hook of your rear hand behaind your face?

*-If you knew the application for it....you would understand.

Why is your stance so low, how do you expect to move? Or are you a try hard male model doing still shots for the camera?

- Well, a nice low stance is a sign of leg strength...is jealousy from you not being able to do that the cause of your anger? There is a difference between the move/stance and the actual application?

And unless you can catch a fly with your chops sticks you ain't fast enough, perhaps it is technique you should be focusing upon rather than trying to get booked for speeding.

*-Well seeing as how I have the knowledge of the technique down, why not work on speed? If someone has learned how to run, and they are about to enter a race, wouldn't they want to increase their speed....even though they know how to run?
And unless you can pull your head out of your ass, you will never have any true knowledge.

From your web page - technique you appear to have got none recognisable in Mantis!

*-DO you study mantis at all ego, since a great deal of the methods, techniques, etc. are from mantis and present in many of the other systems, not just 8 step.

To know others is to have knowledge. To know oneself is to be enlightened.

baldmantiz

06-12-2001, 09:09 PM

I apologize to everyone else on this forum that comes here for decent knowledge/feedback for my above comments. If anyone wants a forum without harsh words...please come to:

http://www.kungfuusa.net

To know others is to have knowledge. To know oneself is to be enlightened.

EARTH DRAGON

06-13-2001, 05:00 AM

I do hope your kidding about the derogatory comments you have posted. With obviously little experience as a martial artist, much less a person with such minamal inteligence or knowledge for that matter,you should keep your comments to yourself, for when you speak you let everyone know how ignorant you are. I suggest you ask your teacher for a refund for you have learned nothing! people use this board for legitamate reasons, not for people such as your self who have such a low self asteem that they have to attempt to put other people down, with such a ignorant outlook and no respect for other people with whom you offend, so please dont post something that you have know idea about for arguing with your self you will surely lose! please do not bother to comment back for i will contact liz and have your negitive posts removed from the forum to allow people with real comments and questions to be heard thank you for your time!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-13-2001, 04:16 PM

EarthDragon,

In reference to you first picture:

1) Leading hand, too far extended for a mantis hook to be effectively used.

2) rear hand, too far back and with a bent wrist, there is no grabbing power what so ever. you'll also be holding on to your opponent's arm just below your throat. How smart is that?

And with this informative material on your web page, you now assume censorship of this forum? Get real man!

Maximus Materialize!

baldmantiz

06-13-2001, 04:39 PM

ego, are you even aware of how the human anatomy is? below the throat are a person's shoulders and the length is perfect for grabbing the wrist and root of the arm.

To know others is to have knowledge. To know oneself is to be enlightened.

aw.axis

06-14-2001, 12:37 AM

I guess its just a case of practise to get the speed and sensitivity needed to make a good mantis catch. There are a couple of techniques I find useful though and for what they are worth here they are:

1. Attack your opponent with a punch finger strike or palm strike, as they raise an arm to block snatch it while moving your weight backwards to pull your opponent towards you then transfer your weight forward for the strike when your opponent is off balence.

2.Maintain contact wrist to wrist, I find I can feel when a sparring partner is going to strike, again its a matter of latching on and transfering weight backwards to make the grab.

These really just shorten the distance to the catch making it easier the standing well back and trying to catch a distance punch.

I find that remaining very relaxed helps the speed of the grab. Hope this gives you a few ideas.

All the best.

Disciple108

06-14-2001, 06:04 PM

Not being a mantis practitioner please forgive any indiscretions :)

having brothers who do train mantis and a sifu who teaches it, from my understanding, there are differences between your mantis', no?

i'm sure if you two investigated each other's mantis', you'll find that your basic principles and strategies are different.

however! despite ego's *ahem* unique way of expressing his observations IMHO they aren't uncalled for. You're stances do seem a little low (what is the aim? posing for photos or martial technique) and despite 8step having wide "mantis catching cicada" postures, it seem a little fair apart and awkward.

what i also find funny is the original question.

baldmantiz, are you a student of earth dragon? (perhaps the other person on the website?) and if so, why are you posting here to get answers which you could procure from your teacher?

-Disciple108

<hr width="90%">
<<-- The person who is afraid of asking is afraid of learning -->>

EARTH DRAGON

06-14-2001, 10:44 PM

First off i would like to answer some of your questions for perhaps you have much less knowledge then you say or think you do. the fighting application of a mantis stance has nothing to do with the pose or showing aspect as shown,that pose is not meant to fight from it is for endurance, leg strength training and to correct posture!as far as the hands being incorrect , you have absolutly know idea what you are talking about, I have 19years as a martial artists and was trained by a chinese grand master so how can you possibly critisize me! how long have you trained and in what style? your posts are in every catagory from northern praying to jeetkundo so please tell us where your so called knowldge lies, im curious. As far as trying to tell the board that my hands are to far apart ,once again i will correct you!!!!!!! It is the exact pose from grand master Chiang Hua Long, founder of ba bu tang lang (8 step praying mantis) if you dont speak chinese, which I highly doubt you do! so as far as you attemping to critasize something that you have absolutly no idea about I suggest you keep your comments to your self becuse you sound very ignorant posting things and telling a sifu his form is incorrect you should again ask you teacher (if you have one ) for a refund for you have learned nothing about Martial arts!P.S i dont mean to sound harsh or angry but how dare you to critsize me or any one on this forum, it is for honest questions and answers! where is your website? your school ? your name? your experience? please answer these questions and stop hiding behind your keyboard! they say the one with the biggest mouth can be heard as they drive away!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON

06-14-2001, 10:59 PM

yes their are many differences in the branches of mantis, for instance seven star mantis holds the hands much closer together and their shoulders more square, eight step turns the shoulders at an angle and places the hands much father apart( as shown in the picture) which makes my argument with the ego extrodinar usless! becuase he dosent even understand the basics! the reason it is so low is not to show fighting aspects but lower body conditioning, the fighting form looks very boring, it is from a fighting stance and the hands never actually make a complete grab, you grab with the whole hand, which again dosent look like anything until executed! Many people have made a lot of positive comments about that stance, and ego is the only one who has no idea why! please attempt to try it for you will see the reason it is so trying! "start with a minute" make sure you back foot is flat and your quatracept is parallel to the ground with your back as straight as you can, then work up to 5 minutes then 10 and so on! thank you for your time!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON

06-15-2001, 05:05 AM

I see that you are from N.J please tell me if you are near sayraville! beacuse I am teaching a seminar there at sayraville martial arts academy this fall and it would be interesting if you would attend "FREE OF CHARGE!" not sure if i am spelling the name of the town correctly but I am sure you know where it is! please let me know!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON

06-15-2001, 05:33 AM

Here is the exact address of the school its at the Rex-Gene Center 426 Raritian st. Sayreville N.J 08872 please let me know if you can come!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-15-2001, 05:39 PM

EarthDragon,

After all the hot-air in your previous post, you still haven't answered two very basic questions that are very reasonable.

As if I care how long you've been learning mantis, or the things you've done in your misspent childhood or the people you've slept with last night.

Thanks for you FREE invite to your seminar anyway. Could we ask questions and get an answer that starts off with something other than How Dare you question the great si fu of 19 years of training blah blah blah blah blah blah..... Or must we all agree with you? I might consider coming if I haven't got enough of a ear full from you on this forum and shown that you can talk intelligently.

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

06-15-2001, 07:32 PM

ok lets start off on the right foot this time. first to answer your questions 1. the hand position in the picture is for form only! NOT TO DEMONSTATE A FIGHTING POSITION!, therefore the hand postions are correct plus Mantis practioners never grab with a mantis hook "as you call it" the correc6t name is (gou) you grab with the whole hand. For show we use the last two fingers to show a grabbing motion, not to be confused with an actual grab which would require much more hand strength and the use of all five fingers! question #2 can be answered by the above staments! I do not want you to think I am concieded or that I am better then you for I am very humble however when a person attempts with wrong and inaccurate knowledge and obviously less training under their belt tells you your wrong, then any person would naturally want to defend themselfs other wise how would one survive on a day to day basis. do you question your teacher? do you tell everyone their wrong or your not doing that right? just wondering why you are so negitive. now its time to answer my questions what style do you train in? where? how long? and are you gonna come to the seminar? it will be on jointlocking ( chi na fa) and bone setting and again for you it will be free of charge!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-16-2001, 11:37 AM

Earthdragon,

Thanks for your reply. To answer your questions, my background in martial arts have been varied. I started off doing Choy Lay Fut and Pak Hok Pai for a number of years, say 5 to 7 before a friend of mine introduced me to Northern Kung fu styles. During that time I had an exposure to Pi Qua, mantis, Hsing I. However my training wasd cut short by a car accident where I've lost the use of my legs. Although I'm not at liberty to disclose my ex-si fus or the schools I've trained in I am free to dicuss what I've learned from these styles. It is for you to decide if what I say makes sense. In my opinion, the lenght of trainig doesn't say as much as how you train and how you apply the style. When I was doing kung fu, I find it refreshing to train with beginners. You don't have to be an expert to ask intelligent questions and alot of the the time is try and see if it works!

why i was so negative is because a "mantis catching a cicada" in that position and in that low stance would not work. (i think you agree). I wasn't aware that the picture was for training leg strength. I've neverb trained in such a low stance before as I think it would actually damage your kness - again that's my opinion. And say if someone were to photograph me in a stance - well it would be a fighting stance - very basic nothing to look at. Why? because i would not want to detract from the main objective of kung fu - ie. fighting without the perepherals - again that's my view.

In response to your comment, I disagree. it is generally suffice to hook with the two last finger and the thumb to gain the split second to launch an attack. When I did mantis, yes, i did use the 5 finger grip but only in situations that were evidently leading into grappling in one form or another. But if I can hit, i wouln't even bother to hook. I've detailed the "protocal" in my response to baldmantis.

Thanks for the invite to the seminare. Sounds interesting but not very useful for me in the physical condition that I'm in. However, I have talked about this with my friend who would like to come - on the condition that he comes as a fee paying attendee otherwise it wouldn't be fair to other attendees who are as much a martial arts enthusest as we are. It's a mater of principal.

Plus, it might set a precedent to others that if they are negative to you on the forum, they'll get a free invite! (Just kidding on the last point).

All the best.

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

06-16-2001, 10:41 PM

It sounds like you have a good heart and good intent, and once again I apologize for comming back at you so strongly. Its just that I have put a lot of time into my training to make it as traditional and as best as it can be, even down translating some very old chinese manuscripts to futher my knowldge of linaments and herbology.So if something as basic as stance was not perfect I would be the first one to correct it for my self, much less select it for our website for the world to see! so I wish you all the best, good luck to you!....... P.S fell free to post some things on our forum " just please no negitivity" thank you Mr. Extrodinar

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-17-2001, 03:53 PM

Earthdragon,

Yes your right. I have a big ego - which means i can't be wrong. So we must both be right :)

You mentioned that mantis practitioners don't grab with the "hook" or Gau as what you refer to it. Why then is it expressed in the system / form?

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

06-17-2001, 08:05 PM

Well to answer your question the "form" as you call it or sets(cueyen) is the flashy or showing part of any system, Not to be confused with the application or fighting techniques that are hidden in the sets! what they are is not what you see It is the high level in karate that you learn the (bon kai) or reason for the kata.Once again the hand position of the mantis is for show to demonstrate or mimick the insect. The full grab of ones hand would require more of the hand muscle to be ulitized, therefore mantis practioners grab with the whole hand not just the last two fingers! in hungar they spend most of their time in (Mabou) "horse stance' does that mean that the inexperienced observer downs the system with a remark like that stance is too low!! how could you fight from such a position! and with the fists in chamber, how can you possibly punch!!!!! do you hear how ridiculous that sounds comming from some one with just a little trianing. I hope you understand and dont get mad at me for answering your question! for to always be right as you say you must know all! then why are you asking in the first place! waiting to hear from you....... P.S is your paralysis temporary or permenent!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-24-2001, 12:22 PM

Earth Dragon,

Yes I've come across many schools in my time that fight differently from how they train. There are Hung Gar schools where they train like you said - in low stances and fight like a kick boxer. I agree, low stances train up the leg stength - but in a fight it is more the mobility you want. Fight's don't go on for that long so it's not a test of endurence.

I guess the question is why don't you train the way you fight? Just get to the nuts and bolts of what kung fu is.

In terms of the mantis forms, I tend to disagree that forms are the flashy part. To me, forms represent the parameters from which the techniques are contrained. Note: the parameters themselves are techniques. I don't agree that there should be any flashy parts to the core system. If they're there, its probably due to wushu influence.

In terms of grabbing - it's probably quicker to hook with the last 2 fingers, sure the rest of the hand and the other 3 fingers are used. I'm making a distinction between the mantis hook compared to a traditional 5 finger grab - say when you hold a bottle or something.

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

06-24-2001, 07:54 PM

I guess the reason we train is different becuse training means a well rounded program not just the fighting aspect of kung fu! when one learns kung fu he is learning an art, a way of life sorta speak. Fighting is a very small part of kung fu. As our system and most systems originate in (henan), shaolin temple. kung fu was designed to strenghten a monk on a daily basis. Their training consisted of many different things.not just the 18 movements of the lohan. When one trains in any art he is learning self defense, for that purpose only! so if you spend all your time training yourself to fight, then you have only touched on a very small part of what kung fu is all about! dont get me wrong I teach a very deadly style of praying mantis which breaks, pulls and tears bones,joints and ligaments. but as one matures in kung fu they realize that this is not what one should do to another human being unless it is absoulutly neccesary.if you do not agree with that then either you are in the wrong martial art or you have not reached that level of maturity yet. any one with fists can fight but a martial artist goes beyond such basic thinking! As for forms they are desingned to train the fighting applications of the system but also increase speed, flexability, balance,fluidity of movement and coordination. They do not disclose the application of fighting to the untrained eye. We have a set called (lanjia) intercept its opening movement from a mantis stance"like the low one from the picture that started this disscussion" it strikes up, down back and forward with the right hand only! the application of that movement is a throw! but unless you knew that it looks like a chin ,groin pull and palm strike. So you see things were ment to be hidden when practicing sets for all to see! so from what you have stated in ancient times when one would learn or "copy" the movements of a set, they would know the in's and out's of the style? theres and old story about"yang lu san" who hid in the chen village and secrectly watched the chen family practising tai chi, he mimicked all the movements and practiced them every night for 20 years, after all that time his tai chi lacked internal strenghth when someone told the chen family about his anticts, they laughed and said its like stealing an empty egg! for it has nothing inside to use!!!!!! so you see where Im comming from yet? please respond

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-25-2001, 02:56 PM

EarthDragon,

Kung Fu training should first and foremost "do no harm" to yourself that is. There are many forms of exercises that could lead to all sorts of spinal injuries etc which an instructor should be knowledgeable about.

Then there's the objective of learning how to fight which happens to be accompined by improved co-ordination, dexterity, strength etc. So instead of going to a gym, Kung Fu provides a means of keeping fit as well as teaching the fighting applications.

I guess unless you're living in a rough area, we probably have limited use of kung fu in everyday life - from a fighting sense that is. But it's good to know that it's there if verbal negotiations break down:) Kung Fu tends to help in sports because it teaches us to use our bodies which we otherwise couldn't.

But one thing I don't quite agree is "Kung Fu being a way of life". Yes, it's an enjoyable hobby and has many health benefits or maybe in your case a rewarding career as an instrustor. But a way of life might be taking it a little further than what Kung Fu is intended to be.

In the old days i guess the monks would be training for a duel purpose - exercise and self defence. The hard core usage probably occurred in the military - where their General's career is on the line everytime he goes into battle.

About LanJia. I think I know the form you're refering to. It's to do with in fighting techniques, with lots of twisting and wriggling and sudden explosive moves?

If that's what you're taking about, than yes, memorizing the form does not mean you know the application. It's pretty much the waist movement that's the driving factor behind the hand movements you've described.

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

06-26-2001, 03:01 AM

what I menat about kung fu being a way of life is what I have expeirenced In my life! I have had the oppritunity to live with two chinese masters at different times in my life, and what they have taught me reflects on every part of my life wether it be for fighting, meditation, qi control or just a positive perspective on life from a enlightment point of veiw. What I mean is if you go to a gym to work out its for exercise, when you hang up your towel after you've showered your exercise is over! when my students leave the kwon they go out into the world with different eyes and place judgement upon expeirence rather than negitivity! As for the form (lanjia) yes their are many twisting waist movements, we call this (jing) corkscrewing power taken fom the ground and generated through the hips and out through the hands, however it is the opening movement that I was reffering to explain everything is not always what it seems, especially in chinese kung fu where many movements are hidden or secret not for other people to see or understand for that matter!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-26-2001, 12:59 PM

"what I menat about kung fu being a way of life is what I have expeirenced In my life! I have had the oppritunity to live with two chinese masters at different times in my life, and what they have taught me reflects on every part of my life wether it be for fighting, meditation, qi control or just a positive perspective on life from a enlightment point of veiw."

It's great that you had the two role models to follow but it should be taken in a separate context to kung fu.

For example you can learn to say play the paino and do so very competently and maybe even become a performer in your own right. But it is not a necessary to follow the foot steps or adopt the views of one's teacher.

Similar with kung fu. Mantis Kung Fu being a system is a set of rules / principals of classical combat. Just as there is a science to areal combat, there is a science attributed to classical combat.

I've had friends with people who are martial artist and others who have other hobbies or careers. What I can say is that we cannot deduce someone's personality or character by the things they enjoy doing in their free time or work life.

That's why I disagree with the view that kung fu is a way of life. Sure it can be a part of your life as are many other things.

"What I mean is if you go to a gym to work out its for exercise, when you hang up your towel after you've showered your exercise is over! when my students leave the kwon they go out into the world with different eyes and place judgement upon expeirence rather than negitivity!"

Well I guess, kung Fu albeit mantis requires dedication and hardwork which can become positive attributes in other endeavours. However, these and other qualities could be developed through other means. For example a world class golf player must have this sort of motivation besides having talent!

"As for the form (lanjia) yes their are many twisting waist movements, we call this (jing) corkscrewing power taken fom the ground and generated through the hips and out through the hands, however it is the opening movement that I was reffering to explain everything is not always what it seems, especially in chinese kung fu where many movements are hidden or secret not for other people to see or understand for that matter!"

I'm not sure if it's taken from the ground. It comes from the waist and back. yes you get good grounding and forward action - but it's from the waist twisting. There are a couple of moves where the turning is done in the air.

The opening moves are unlikely to be throws. It is to do with applying forearm pressure and creating a "wedge" to prevent a bad situation from getting worse. OK that's the basic applications, but that sort of forearm pressure can be applied to getting into postions for you to put "locks" on. And the upweard striking claw is deals with situations when you're taken unawares - so u hit anything, their jaw, inside of their arm etc... anything and everyhing - no time to think! That's why I was emphasising on the waist twist and all the hand movements are the result.

In terms of the moves being a secret - I probably see it in this light. Let's say you're a novice at English, it is unlikely that you'll be able to appreciate Shakespear. Same thing with Mantis, I don't think that the intention was to hide anything, more so the fact that an untrained observer is not skilled enough to pick up the content.

The fist form in mantis is probably Bung Bo. That level already deals with combat tactics - which would suggest that the basics (kicks, punches, correct stance work) is assumed knowledge. A beginner would have to train in these basics before moveing to Bung Bo. What more Lan Jia - which is another level of difficulty up. Answers the questions of what IF Bung Bo breaks down. Lan Jia is a very important set - in my opinion.

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

06-26-2001, 04:49 PM

Your words and your opions are very valid and without the "egotisical shall we say" point you used to try to make when we began this thread.I now enjoy reading your posts. And know ones opion is ever wrong thats what makes us individuals. It seems you have knowledge about mantis but you now seem to open up and listen a little more to others which is good, for no one likes talking to a know it all, but you now express your opions
which is what this board was designed for, not to put people down and tell them they are wrong or thier stance is to low becuase you dont understand the usage or that you just dont agree.OK!!!... to explain what I meat by the power comming from the ground is a higher level of trianing and understanding of (jing) it is like (chi) we do not own it we just posses it. When training in qi-gong their is an excercise that is done to pull universal (chi) from the ground through the feet to the (dantien) and then out through the hands. The minute you think this force is yours or generated by your own body it is lost! so when true jing power is execucted it is simply borrowed for the earth and conducted through us but not by us, you see,so yes it is in the waist but how did it get there? where did it come from? now you know! when bruce lee was asked where his power came from when he demonstated the 1 inch punch he replied the ankle!for he did not want to admit it came from the ground because he thought that americans would not take him seriously and would not understand what the hell he meant....... people still don't Please respond

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Arod1972

06-27-2001, 12:24 AM

Wing chun is a non flashy and directly agressive system. we fight like we train. You could not say this about WC, Ego. But you sure tried to bash it before. Remember.

One who has two roots becomes a stronger tree.

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-27-2001, 04:06 PM

"OK!!!... to explain what I meat by the power comming from the ground is a higher level of trianing and understanding of (jing) it is like (chi) we do not own it we just posses it."

I find that it's hard to see it from the maybe... traditional chinese way of explaining it but the movements would work regardless of the way its being explained. I tend to see it this way, the ground provides a stable platform for your movements. For example in the opening moves of Lan Jia, the twisting of the waist and resulting arm movements have to be compensated with a low enough stance and enough anchor in your lower waist and leg muscles to provide stability. Or in the first line of Bung Bo, "the flying punch" is launched from a bow stance. You have the thigh, calf muscles working and then then ankles, feet toes kick in combined with the waist twist from which you send out your punch. So, yes, you rely on the reaction force from the ground - kind of like Newton's thrid law of motion. a lot of "tricks" are done with playing the center of gravity, how low you can sit on a stance and having the spinginess to provide mobility. Does this make sense?

"When training in qi-gong their is an excercise that is done to pull universal (chi) from the ground through the feet to the (dantien) and then out through the hands."

Mmmmmm I've done breathing exercises and yes there are benefits. Muscles need to be oxigenated and the more efficient you can breath the more stamina you could achieve. But I've never thought of this in terms of chi. what is chi anyway?

I also tend to think of moves coming from the larger parts of the body - ie. the centre of gravity - large muscles then radiating to the hands and feet - the body extremeties. If it is the feet or hands controlling the body it'll be like the tail wagging the dog so to speak.

"The minute you think this force is yours or generated by your own body it is lost! so when true jing power is execucted it is simply borrowed for the earth and conducted through us but not by us, you see"

Oooh that's a hard one to understand. Maybe it's like walking or running. It's not something you think about - but just do it. Well say you're in a fight, why do you move the way you've been trained - well i guess it's because it is less efficient to do so otherwise. Your body will know. There have been times when other practitioner had commented. Ego, you did this, this and that move that countered this, that and the other. I don't know, just did it because it felt right. Or been clipped in the face and twisted away. Why? because it felt right. So I guess mantis is not something you need to conciously think about.

",so yes it is in the waist but how did it get there? where did it come from? now you know! when bruce lee was asked where his power came from when he demonstated the 1 inch punch he replied the ankle!"

The ankle's a small joint. Immense power can be generated for just being efficient. Think of a car, if the ignition system is not properly tuned - ie the spark plug is firing at a differnt beat to the fuel injection system, you'll get lots of soot in the exhaust. Like wise, if you can coordinate your muscles to fire at a precise sequence then for the given amount of energy expended your performance would be much greater.

"for he did not want to admit it came from the ground because he thought that americans would not take him seriously and would not understand what the hell he meant....... people still don't"

But I must admit, I don't understand descriptions based on Chinese philosophy - because it is not my background. I tend to make sense of things in scientific concepts - or just by trying..... lets see how this works and why.

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

06-27-2001, 07:56 PM

For example in the opening moves of Lan Jia, the twisting of the waist and resulting arm movements have to be compensated with a low enough stance and enough anchor in your lower waist and leg muscles to provide stability. Or in the first line of Bung Bo, "the flying punch" is launched from a bow stance. You have the thigh, calf muscles working and then then ankles, feet toes kick in combined with the waist twist from which you send out ......... Pardon me but was it not you who mocked my low stance to begin with!!!! I remember you telling me that I must come back down to earth with that "wusu cat stance" which is too low to move from and that my hands are too far apart!!!!!! but yet in the paragraph above you countradict yourself! I'm not angry about your critasism its just ironic that you said you knew so much but now are asking WHAT IS CHI? if you dont understand what chi is it is impossible for me to explain (jing) or that the earth is much much more than a platform to stand on as you stated in your post! most people walk on the earth; few walk with the earth. To understand the energy in the earth one must first understand the energy in the human body! this cannot be done without the understanding of chi! you have stated that you have some training but what did your teacher teach you if you dont understand basic force? Im not belittling your teacher but if in fact he is teaching martial arts surley he has some knowledge of chi! please refer back to our web site and click to tai chi button as well as the qi-gong button and read!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-28-2001, 03:42 PM

EarthDragon,

My last post mentioned that the stance has to be low enough to provide stability without compromising the springiness. I felt that from your pictures your stance was too low, although I should have said it in a different way. To which you replied that the stance was for training purposes - which I guess you don't fight in that stance. But when I was training mantis, I fought in the stance I trained. The objective was always combat driven (without compromising the health aspects). So coming back to Lan Jai, yes my stance was low - but not that low. One thing i should say though, how low is too low is not universal - but a personal thing. So maybe you can move well in a lower stance than i could. If you can than it's right for you!

"I'm not angry about your critasism its just ironic that you said you knew so much but now are asking WHAT IS CHI? if you dont understand what chi is it is impossible for me to explain (jing)"

Seriously, I don't understand chi. I've read through you web page. Or maybe I sould say that I don't understand mantis expressed through the concept of chi. That is not to say that my mantis didn't worked as it did - being able to fight the way that i had trained.

"or that the earth is much much more than a platform to stand on as you stated in your post! most people walk on the earth; few walk with the earth."

you've lost me there - it is not a critism on your part.

"To understand the energy in the earth one must first understand the energy in the human body! this cannot be done without the understanding of chi!"

I tend to think of energy in a scientific concept. Energy in the earth I tend to associate with things like volcanos and plate tectonics etc. But guess t is not what you mean. As for energy in the body, it's kind of like what I mentioned in my last post - bio mechanics and the like. And looking at the overall training aspects - then it would be the types of food - for example carbohydrates burn more efficiently than fats etc.... But then I think your concept of Enegy is again different.

"you have stated that you have some training but what did your teacher teach you if you dont understand basic force?"

But I think I do. In the last post, discussed at length of how forces can be redirected and delivered. As well as the concept of the centre of gravity.

"Im not belittling your teacher but if in fact he is teaching martial arts surley he has some knowledge of chi!"

It's nothing to do with my teachers. In fact, some of them have been competent practitioners in Chinese medicine. They probably understand chi. However, I don't share that interest. However, I saw that as a separate part of northern kung fu training. Just like some one could have learned robotics from me as well as kung fu. I may express kung fu in scientific terms because of my background in physics. But it doesn't mean that it has to be any less than someone who has a background in chinese medicine.

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

06-28-2001, 11:15 PM

O.K let me help you, as far as chi goes scientificly it is magnectic energy componded by electromagnetics, meaning the brain which is the positive (yang) and the sacrum which is negitive (yin) We know of earths gravitational pull as positive and negitive which is the same as our bodies, when polarity is reversed through qi-gong training or breathing techniqes we can reverse that polarity to become either very light for movement or levitation or heavy for rooting or grounding so the earth plays a very important role in this. Just as trees take in our carbon dioxide and give off oxygen for without this simple circle we would sufficate. So to know chi is to know life. To know chi within ones body we are abil to perform certain techniques that with out the use of chi would be impossilble! iron palm is one technique that totally relies on chi for it is not the muscle strength nor the force used from the body in which the object is broken. It is the amount of chi summend from the ground passing through the body and then through the object that does the breaking! not the person, they are simply the conductor for the force. a extremly simple but not totally acurate explination of chi is the life force energy that keeps us alive. And in no way should any martial art be seperated from this union of movement and chi, other wise it is but an empty shell and it cannot exsist without its opposite. the basic theory of the yin/yang symbol. do you understand a little now? do you know what the yin/ yang symbol represents? if you do you will relize that it is all related and that any training must have both parts to be complete. If it is not than the teacher is in no way qualified to teach and you should seek a knowledgable shifu......... thank you again

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-29-2001, 08:29 AM

"O.K let me help you, as far as chi goes scientificly it is magnectic energy componded by electromagnetics, meaning the brain which is the positive (yang) and the sacrum which is negitive (yin)"

Which is which? I agree magantic and electric fields are polarised but one does not attract the other. To create motion, you'll need to interact the electric current and magnatic field at 90 degrees. The resultant force will be 90 degrees to the plane of each of those two components. However, it would require an immense amount of electric current and magnatic field to produce any meaningful amount of force.

If we have that sort of electric current running through us - it would fry our brains. I also don't think that there is evidence to support that we are magnatically polarised - and if so - it wounldn't be a great extent. otherwise we'll be attracted to iron objects.

"We know of earths gravitational pull as positive and negitive"

Gravational pull is not polarised. Any thing which has mass is attracted by gravational field. Although scientist have postulated that there is a repelling field - kind of like anti-gravity. This was based on the relative positions of the stars and the theoritical age of the universe etc. However, even if this force exist, it works ONLY at macro range - I mean many many billion of light years.

"which is the same as our bodies, when polarity is reversed through qi-gong training or breathing techniqes we can reverse that polarity to become either very light for movement or levitation or heavy for rooting or grounding so the earth plays a very important role in this."

I don't think we can create anti-gravity as such. OK I guess if we create a strong enough electric current running though us we might be able to levitate off the earth surface if we interact the current at 90 degrees with the earth's magnatic field. However, that would probably kill us first! Incidentally, experimental space craft can generate their own electricity by lowering a metallic teather directly towards earth. As they orbit the planet, the line of motion cuts through the earht's magnitic field thereby creating an electric current. It's kind of if you have magnatic field + motion you can get a current. With 2 components you can get the third.

"Just as trees take in our carbon dioxide and give off oxygen for without this simple circle we would sufficate."

Understood, this is observed and scientifically verifiable. however, in reality the cycle is very complex.

"So to know chi is to know life."

OK at a molicular level, the interations (ie chemical reactions) are due to positive and negative charges. However, the range in which these forces operate are very small. These simple interations can lead to complex systems such as life. But that again is just a theory - electric interations themselves may not result in life.

"To know chi within ones body we are abil to perform certain techniques that with out the use of chi would be impossilble! iron palm is one technique that totally relies on chi for it is not the muscle strength nor the force used from the body in which the object is broken. It is the amount of chi summend from the ground passing through the body and then through the object that does the breaking!"

i think it is more to do with working your muscles efficiently as described previosuly. Nevertheless, we can test the concept of drawing on the earth's magnatic field. Would you affect the position of a compass placed in your vicinity when doing iron palm? Measure the amps between your head and sacrum - the amp meter would should the amount of lectric current running through your body. Calculate from the strength of the magnitic field which you've harnessed and the current to derive the force that you can potentially generate. Determine the stress factor of the object. If the stress factor is less than the force then yes you can break the object - otherwise no.

"not the person, they are simply the conductor for the force. a extremly simple but not totally acurate explination of chi is the life force energy that keeps us alive."

I think it is the food we eat that keeps us alive. We don't live on electric energy.

"And in no way should any martial art be seperated from this union of movement and chi, other wise it is but an empty shell and it cannot exsist without its opposite. the basic theory of the yin/yang symbol."

Some instructors relate to the Yin Yang symbol which suggest opposit but complementary techniques.

"do you understand a little now? do you know what the yin/ yang symbol represents? if you do you will relize that it is all related and that any training must have both parts to be complete."

What you said about chi and the power to break things is unlikey to be possible. there are other ways to explain iron palm. Nevertheless, you can run that simple experiment to prove or disprove my case.

"If it is not than the teacher is in no way qualified to teach and you should seek a knowledgable shifu........."

My ex-mantis instructor had been knowledgeable in Mantis as shown by the fighting ability of himselfand his students. That's all the prove I need.

Maximus Materialize!

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go

06-29-2001, 07:18 PM

Dude,

I've had enough of your dumb ass. During my morning surfing I came across your name several times and your students enty. I then began to proceed to scan your entry's and ultimately your web page. I think that all of this has just gone to your head, and that your trying to claim fame and glory for your ego thats in your closet. I just now had a look at your stance's and if thats you in the pictures, well your Sorry!!! dude your students have better form than you do and please before you give advice on gung fu topics, correct yourself first. Thankyou

jason

p.s. If you think that your
good, lets just see

anytime anyplace anyday-one
of my theories is to put your
money were your mouth is and if
your think your a bad as prove it.
if you want, please meet with me.

hyperspace_5@hotmail.com :cool:

jay-jay

EARTH DRAGON

06-29-2001, 11:17 PM

well with such a hostile attitude you must be awsome!!!!!!!!!!as far as critisizing others you must be a master! tell me where your school is? how long have you trained? from who? how many internet fights have you fought and won? all of them I would imagine, your pretty tough hiding behind your key board! any time any place you say! well if fighting will make you feel better and for some reason prove something to you then how about my school when ever you want I will pay half of your plane ticket I think thats fair! and for yet another student that has know idea what the stance is about please dont tell me its to low and you can fight from that position. I dont want to go into that again! before you speak ignorantly ask your teacher what is tang lang shr is that will help you understand! and by the way my training was from a chinese grand master, how about you?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON

06-29-2001, 11:44 PM

well I guess I did a terrible job trying to explain chi from a scientific veiw. For to understand chi it is like trying to prove theories they are not respected by scientists unless they can taste it, touch it, see it and smell it, it doesnt exsist! so I dont know how without showing you, the force of chi, trying to explain it but hopefully some one on this post will do a better job than I did LOL. You stated that you think an iron palm break is only muscle than how would you explain a double break where two blocks are stacked ontop of one another and the palm is turned over keeping in contact with the block then the bottom one is broken!please no sciencetific notation. I have seen it done at a seminar at my school by my kungfu brother john newberry www.prayingmantiskungfu.com (http://www.prayingmantiskungfu.com) surley that cannot be muscle can it! if chi does not break things how do you explain the bending of steel, breaking of bricks and concrete, and the other many chi skillls possed by shaolin monks? all things cannot be proven by science! other wise science would know how we got here, and darwinism would not exsist! one cannot look narrowmindedly in the martial arts. To know onesself is to be enlightened, and just becuse someone knows how to fight does not make them a man, for fighting is the lowest level of martial arts.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON

06-29-2001, 11:57 PM

dude as you so eliquintly called me I just emailed my kung fu brother's school in alabama very close to you indeed, and he laughed at your gross attempt to challange me but he said you can save your $ on a plane ticket and match hands with him before you get embarrased in N.Y so if you are serious I will email you his address! but if you have a hard on for me you know where I am! P.S sansho rules! bring a cup!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

07-01-2001, 04:48 PM

Earthdragon,

If those powers do exist it is truely amazing. In reference to your brothers demonstartion of breaking the second block,

1) what is the range of your chi power?

If it can be tranmitted through the first block to break the second, is it possible to tranmit the energy through air or through vacuum for that matter?

2)It seems that his palm is causing some sort of resonance on the block which caused it to shatter. Kind of like ultra sound on a kidney stone.

If that's the case, it should be possible to enhance or "mode-lock" the frequenccy of the chi resonance through an array of quartz stones. Put it this way, you can intensify the power of a laser through mode-lock techniques!

What you could deliver is a deadly pulse of chi energy say 1MW and upward with a range of a sniper's rifle.

That's the reason why the chinese were slow to apply firearms to their war techniques. Their science was based on totally different theories to the West. Relying on chi energy and application of bio-magnatic fields for a lot of the applications.

For example acupuncture is based on aligning the bio-electric systems of the body. it stands to reason that this energy can be focused.

I guess you can say, the Shaolin way negated the use of firearms for a long time. Until such time where advance weapons can be mass produced that could match a kung fu master than could only be produced from select individuals and after a life time of training.

well I guess I did a terrible job trying to explain chi from a scientific veiw. For to understand chi it is like trying to prove theories they are not respected by scientists unless they can taste it, touch it, see it and smell it, it doesnt exsist! so I dont know how without showing you, the force of chi, trying to explain it but hopefully some one on this post will do a better job than I did LOL. You stated that you think an iron palm break is only muscle than how would you explain a double break where two blocks are stacked ontop of one another and the palm is turned over keeping in contact with the block then the bottom one is broken!please no sciencetific notation. I have seen it done at a seminar at my school by my kungfu brother john newberry www.prayingmantiskungfu.com (http://www.prayingmantiskungfu.com) surley that cannot be muscle can it! if chi does not break things how do you explain the bending of steel, breaking of bricks and concrete, and the other many chi skillls possed by shaolin monks? all things cannot be proven by science! other wise science would know how we got here, and darwinism would not exsist! one cannot look narrowmindedly in the martial arts. To know onesself is to be enlightened, and just becuse someone knows how to fight does not make them a man, for fighting is the lowest level of martial arts.

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

07-01-2001, 06:21 PM

Not sure what you mean by range of chi? and of coarse it is possible to transmit chi through air for part of chi is air, that's one way a person is abill to enhance chi is proper breathing techniques,obviously oxygen supplies nutrients to the body, tissue and organs. Another form of levitation is from pranana hatha where excessive breathing is used to turn water based cells into air based cells thus making your body weight less dense then the air which surronds you, allowing one to become extremly light. You may argue this point from a scientific point of veiw but there are many books on this very subject, so research before you draw conclusion. As far as amplifiying chi this can only be done by practice and experience, the more you do the stronger it becomes. No machine can duplicate the power of life. My qigong teacher Master Yen Chu Feng heals cancer, lopus, aids, arthritis, Ms , Md, bells palsy you name it she has healed it. She is the 3rd highest ranked qi-gong master in the world and has traveled extensively in 11 countries to heal and demonstate her abilities.I met her when I lived in china town San Fransico and became her first american student, she moved with me to buffalo and lives her with me. One of her demonstrations has a room full of people with their eyes closes shaking and rolling around on the floor. Another is to break chopsticks with her throat. Only chi could possilbly break wood without force.We did a show on AM buffalo a morning T.V show and she put chi into my leg without touching me and I inserted a 9" steel wire through my calf muscle with out the slightest pain or blood. So there is many things not proven by science that do exsist, you just have to open your mind. For any martial artist's ultimate goal is to harness internal force and become one with nature for this is enlightenment and second to nothing!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go

07-02-2001, 06:10 AM

o.k. where is this alabama school anyway?
I will be happy to go dutch on our San shou date.

:cool:

jay-jay

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go

07-02-2001, 06:12 AM

You can reach me at hyperspace_5@hotmail.com ;) :p :cool:

jay-jay

Ego_Extrodinaire

07-02-2001, 04:01 PM

So you must have heard about the recently uncovered writing of ancient text from the Gobi desert in China.

It speaks of powerful monks that have achieved a state of pure chi energy - the paper described them as Templars. It was during a time when the Gobi desert was rich and fertile and a great chinese civilization (that pre-dated the first emperor) thrived.

It also speaks of another great civilization in the harsh mountants of Nepal. Both civilizations developed a type of "science" quite unlike our own. The emphasis is based on finding harmony with nature rather than "conquring". Nevertheless, human nature saw them at war. They had developed powerful war machines based on harnessing cosmic forces - derived from planetary alignment.

In the ensuing exchange, powerful earth quakes destroyed the civilization in Nepal - burying it in the region now known as the Hymalayas.

The civilization in the Gobi was also reduced to ashes the the once fertile land was transformed into an inhospitable desert. Although there were survivors, their great knowlege was lost and the lived as nomads.

However, the paper talks of a few who escape the destruction of Nepal, bringing away the little they carried. This formed the basis of the development of the Indian medicine and fighting arts - note: dim mak orginated from india. over time this knowledge was brought back to China or more precisely the Shaolin temple.

However, it appears that the unexplinable powers achieved by Shaoin monks is insignificant compared to the powers achieved by thoese civilizations.

However, sceince has taken a differnt turn in the 21th C. and it is only today that scientist are talking about high energy lasers, particle beams ,electromagantic rail guns, singularity vortexes and chaos engines.

The paper expressed that in the past, a single Templar would have proved a match for any modern arms force.

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

07-02-2001, 07:14 PM

are you the guy that stared in that new movie your volcabulary speaks for itself! perter ray school can be found at www.8step.com (http://www.8step.com) as far as you calling names and critsizing a sifu I f you are serious and not just talking ****, i hope you can back it up. I havent fought full contact in 10 years but if you think you are tough as you say from your typing then book a flight to NY let me know the date, and come to my school and we will go down the street to my freinds boxing gym and you can take out your frustrations and then apoligize for blurting out profanity against a sifu! if you do not respond to this by confirming a date then I and every one on this board will know you are an internet tough guy who talks **** behind his almighty keyboard! they say the one with the biggest mouth can be heard while driving away! so quit wasting my time or back up what you say!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON

07-02-2001, 07:20 PM

please do not take what I say to certain people on this board the wrong way, I am very humble and have surpassed the tough guy role many years ago in my training! its just that when someone rudly interups a good thread by shouting profanity and calling some one out it kinda gets under my skin. I've trained for almost 20years and taught for the last five and i've seen them come and go, from tough guys to insecure guys but no one likes an ***hole so again please excuse my barbaric behavior. shay shay

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON

07-02-2001, 07:29 PM

I am not familar with the paper from the gobi dessert. I am just speaking from my own experience and what I have been taught. I am lucky enough to have been taught by two chinese masters both of whom I haved lived with, well one I lived at his kwoon but nevertheless I have been doing kung fu and qi-gong for 19 or so years and seen many amazing things in that time some of which I have descibed to you.I cannot stress enough that kung fu without the pressence of chi is but an empty shell. please go to your local book store and purchase a book of qi-gong it will open your eyes widely.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go

07-03-2001, 01:05 AM

Hello ********,

I am a ten year old student of Shoalin and Wing Chun. I moved to florida and have no school now(saddly)

I am one of the most enthusiastic and motivated Gung-fu practitioners that I know of. It is my way of life. As for pulling your leg, I wanted to speak with you. It showed some true colors. You should know that a master does not critisize nor does he have an ego. I was playing,
but would still enjoy a nice match. Friends of mine practice with no pads and no rules exept just don't kill or criple or blind each other. Real life combat reflects one's practice habbits.
Please tell me what school in alabama your talking about and I would be most honored to attend, God works in mystierious ways. As for the profanity, I thought that it was weak. By the way I think that Grand Master Wei hsiao Tang is really great! I am looking for a worthy school to attend but have had no good turn ups. Grand Ultimate snake hand really weaves through the grass. I mean well.

"look within to see without one self"

HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY TO EVERYONE ESP. Earth Dragon

gatto go train in my back yard

not edited by L.V.S.

jay-jay

EARTH DRAGON

07-03-2001, 05:58 AM

well well well it does my heart good to know there are actually some martial artists on this board. I was rather distraught when I read your first message. I could not figure out where you were comming from, I am in no way egotistical and a very down to earth person. I have been humbled by my teachers in the late eighties and had any chip on my shoulder long since kicked off 1000x over, but as a sifu who posts his site for all to see I must at times defend myself from allegations that I think I am better then others because I like to teach/preach what I have learned. sometimes people take it negitively that I do this but I mean no harm. You would be suprised at some of the contant and mannor that people have the odasity to type! my now freind ego extrodinar first typed that my stances were wrong! but after much explaination I think he now understands me a little better. take care and god bless........P.S my kung fu brother is sifu damien ray birmingham Alabama P.O box 55304 ph (205) 941-0301 or if thats to far try my other kung fu brother at kung fu usa sifu tom sumbera 525 10th street suite 507 lake park florida 33403 ph (561) 8633085......

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go

07-04-2001, 09:34 AM

Thankyou so much. I will look into them.
I am dieing to train in a worthy school close to me from pensacola, fl. If you dont use it you'll lose it. God bless you

p.s. by the way your looks in your stance training,... you must be able to jump super high?
or you have a super grounding!, like a mountain. :cool:

come on,

EARTH DRAGON

07-06-2001, 10:45 PM

well im flattered but I will leave the high jumping able to leap tall buildings things up to superman! I do however have enduring leg strength not the kind that can squat press "weights are heavy" lol, but I was totally impressed when I saw master Chan Pui of wah lumpraying mantis at age fifty do a low set from which he was 6 inches of the ground through most of the form. I was in awe of his internal stamena, so i tried it! and it is much harder than it looks!!! try it for yourself.... lift one foot straight ahead like a front kick and drop down and stand up! try to do 5 if you can! So yes low stances are a goal for me to achive and even bigger one is to do them in my fifties! We have a low set in our tai chi that my sifu makes look easy but two minutes into it my legs were burning! so he told me to do those single leg bends as described above 50 with each leg! try 5 you will be suprised

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go

07-07-2001, 12:31 PM

hello Earth Dragon,

I tryed it, while doing the exersize I learned that you need super balance agility and internal strength! I wonder if this type of training would be benificial for speed in fighting postures in a real fight?

good day,

Seiryu go :cool:

EARTH DRAGON

07-08-2001, 08:41 PM

how did you do were you ablil to pump out at least 5 hard isnt it?........ good question,one of the first things my students learn when the come to my school is tibeten stances they are 2,600 years old practices by yogi's/ monks alike we use 8 ,they are designed to increace strength, flexibility, endurance and balance they are very trying postures for even a minute when you strive for longer they become enlightning some monks hold them for hours boddidarma did them for days.. hard to imagine! they are not to confused with fighting stances as like the low mantis stance first picture on our web site it has a fighting application but not from that low, they are to help us learn of ourselfs not to learn how to fight others. few things in kung fu are for fighting: many things in kung fu are for us to learn about how we are as a person/martial artist... no one wants to teach a student that takes kung fu tho learn how to fight.... I send people like that to the boxing gym!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON

07-08-2001, 08:48 PM

for balance we do whats called (fai yen) flying sparrow, extend one leg back point toes, while bending your upper body down even with the ground arch your back and keep your extended leg even with your shoulder blades point your fingers back like wings lock your foundation legs knee! start at 1 minute work up from there it will train your equilibrium to balance it's self while you hold the posture good luck let me know how long you can hold it without touching the ground.... PS dont forget to switch legs lol

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON

07-09-2001, 05:31 AM

to increase speed in your punches heres the best way, concentrate on bringing the punch back rather than punching out, i.e, when you snap a back fist focus on pulling it back this will automatically speed up the outward thrust and snap! it will relax the tention in the mind of striking and rely on relaxing the muscle which will intern speed up the strike.....hope this helps you

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

07-10-2001, 04:25 PM

Earthdragon:

"few things in kung fu are for fighting: many things in kung fu are for us to learn about how we are as a person/martial artist... no one wants to teach a student that takes kung fu tho learn how to fight.... I send people like that to the boxing gym!!!!!!!"

I disagree on the basis that kung fu is about fighting and ways to make a person a better fighter. Sure there are exercises that may not have a direct fighting application but they prepare one's body to become a more efficient in combat. Kick boxing, boxing etc does that - it is not exclusive to kung fu.

For example after afew years of training, one should find that their fighting ability increases - able to destroy an opponent in a shorter time span or be able to survive in a wider range of confrontational scenarios.

Kung Fu - especially N. mantis is designed for the battle field. Of course you have the option of showing mercy - but that's just a morale choice. The art itself is a set of integrated techniques. Just like a gun, it is a weapon, how it is being used depends on the user! Guns don't kill people do!

Maximus Materialize!

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go

07-11-2001, 05:50 AM

That is a great training technique Earth Dragon! I am enjoying the good advise and training tips, they're great! I try'ed the front leg holding post stance and I can only last for like two miniutes, its amazing how good it is for balance strength and focus. I tryed the one legged doubble backward wing stance that you told me and it is very difficult to acompligh for a period of time without losing balance and touching ground. I like it, please help me more!! I am a motivated practitioner with no local training facility or school to go and train so I use my back yard!, and therfore enjoy talking to you. Is there anything else that you can tell me to better improve myself sifu Earth Dragon?
:eek: ;) :cool: leg arm combos in training motion proficency? self defense/health/longevity/way of life ;)

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go

07-11-2001, 05:51 AM

HAVE A GREAT WEEK!!! :D

EARTH DRAGON

07-11-2001, 08:19 PM

dear ego agian I stress that if it is just fighting you wish to seek out of kung fu then you are only touching a very small piece of the whole pie! kung fu is not so much about learning to fight, its how to defend your self if ever the situation arises. If you dont go looking for trouble chances are you wont find it. if you think think that every thing about kung fu is for fighting then you are sadly mistaken. it was orginally taught by boddidharma to strenghten the monks as the meditated ,preached and taught buddisim! how many religous monks do you think trained lohan to hurt or fight! they dont even kill ants or spiders its against their religon. it wasnt until the fall of the communists and the manchuirans that they were forced to fight to save the temple! so again if all you see in kung fu is the fighting aspects, you must look with open eyes...dont get me wrong I teach one of the most fierce stlyes of praying mantis were we rip pull and tear joints and ligaments, however never would I stress to my students how to hurt someone what kind of teacher would I be? i do however teach them to defend themselfs! we have many techniques that break elbows and knees but tell me where in america would you block a punch and then compound breakthe elbow backwards requiring reconstructive surgery! that is not the message I teach and after one learns how to hurt chances are if they learned anything they dont want to! the balttle field as you called it is the serine setting of the henan province gimore county! have you been there? it is beautiful not a battle field, and this is the birth place of all martial arts! try healing some one first! fighting is easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON

07-11-2001, 08:30 PM

I've had enough of your dumb ass. During my morning surfing I came across your name several times and your students enty. I then began to proceed to scan your entry's and ultimately your web page. I think that all of this has just gone to your head, and that your trying to claim fame and glory for your ego thats in your closet. I just now had a look at your stance's and if thats you in the pictures, well your Sorry!!! dude your students have better form than you do and please before you give advice on gung fu topics, correct yourself first. Thankyou

jason

p.s. If you think that your
good, lets just see

anytime anyplace anyday-one
of my theories is to put your
money were your mouth is and if
your think your a bad as prove it.
if you want, please meet with me.

so you came on this board to offend me by saying im a dumb ass and i'm sorry and my students form is better than mine? but now you ask me to teach you and you enjoy trying the things I suggest to you? well this is ironic! however I am a sifu and have chosen to teach others for a living so even if one offends me I must look beyond the ignorance and help! you make me feel like an old master who fist teaches his student humility first, but this is the internet and i'm surely not a master but old aaawww kinda! I dont know what it is your seeking in your training and its hard to teach with a keyboard. but if their is any questions you have or you are looking for a way to improve what you already know then I will be glad to help! but please no more name calling LOL

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go

07-16-2001, 06:39 AM

hey dude,

first of all I'm not ignorant and second I like doing those exersizes merly because I have been fond of them for some time now and their denificial use, furthermore I have run accross them before in my Shoalin Training, I just was humble, friendly, and being coooorative with you,, because I though that we where starting to have an stimulating conversation. Lastly I only called you names because I wanted to converse with you. Dilweed. Anyway I still think your pretty cool considering all the fu*king idiots out there. I guess your all right dude, just hope we're still ok with each other, and wanted to set the above mentioned clear with you.

lets talk about your favorite gung fu tactics.

god bless you, and be well. ;)

nobody

07-16-2001, 07:54 PM

live long and prosper :D

baldmantiz

07-16-2001, 10:37 PM

amazing how all of a sudden you want knowledge from someone you insulted....kinda makes one want to listen before speaking...

To know others is to have knowledge. To know oneself is to be enlightened.

EARTH DRAGON

07-17-2001, 08:31 AM

dont worry lighting we are cool! I just found it funny that we started off on the wrong foot and now we are exchanging ideas and tecniques! I didnt mean to call you ignorant and i'm soory if I offened you, I didnt mean to. But it seems that most people on here are out for blood or to offend and put other people down.. read the subject tai mantis fake sifu and read the posts that honeysmacks sent me! dont know where these people come from? but anyways hows your balance comming? good I hope. the chinese say if you dont have balance in your self, you cannot have balance in your life.this is sooo true but remember practice practice, practice its the only way! if you are doing better on the stances let me know if you want more. by the way the first one is called fai yen and the second shi yen if your into chinese. good luck respond soon!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

07-17-2001, 12:55 PM

"kung fu is not so much about learning to fight, its how to defend your self if ever the situation arises. If you dont go looking for trouble chances are you wont find it."

Not only can kung fu be used to defend yourself, it can be used to cause trouble and do harm to others. For example nuclear power can be used to bring electricity to a town or used for mass destruction. Understanding of nuclear physics, like understanding of Kung Fu -> is knowledge. How we use it varies from person to person.

"if you think think that every thing about kung fu is for fighting then you are sadly mistaken. it was orginally taught by boddidharma to strenghten the monks as the meditated ,preached and taught buddisim!"

The Shaolin temple story is a small aspect of Kung Fu. many styles origniated independently of Shaolin. In fact the better styles came from the military rather than Shaolin. Although somewhere along history, the styles were brought to Shaolin for one reason or another.

"how many religous monks do you think trained lohan to hurt or fight! they dont even kill ants or spiders its against their religon."

Don't know. All I can say is some were probably more religious than others. There are also those who became monks for other reasons than religeon. For example in WWII many young men became priests to avoid going to war. Are they religious?

"it wasnt until the fall of the communists and the manchuirans that they were forced to fight to save the temple!"

Kung fu was used extensively by the military before the defence of Shaolin.

"so again if all you see in kung fu is the fighting aspects, you must look with open eyes...dont get me wrong I teach one of the most fierce stlyes of praying mantis were we rip pull and tear joints and ligaments,"

When i was training in Kung Fu, i had other activities that dealt with other things. Maybe in the past Shaolin Temple, kung fu included general strehgth training exercises etc... that we can now do at a gym. So when you do Kung Fu, it is not necessary to do the 100 push ups and sit ups etc, because we can get this sort of training else where.

"however never would I stress to my students how to hurt someone what kind of teacher would I be? i do however teach them to defend themselfs!"

But defending themselves may involve hurting the other person. They could be competing objectives. Which one would you choose?

"we have many techniques that break elbows and knees but tell me where in america would you block a punch and then compound breakthe elbow backwards requiring reconstructive surgery!"

As a point in strategy, I won't focus on breaking that particular arm etc. The objective is alway to neutralize the threat. When I was a prac. in Kung Fu, I would do so professionally. If neutralizing their combat system involves breaking some of their components - so be it. Notice how I describe it in a cold and clinical manner. There's no room for sentimentalities.

"that is not the message I teach and after one learns how to hurt chances are if they learned anything they dont want to!"

That again is a morale choice. some people might want to hurt others even more. Some don't. Others are indifferent and would not hold back techniques when it's necessary. There're all types of pracs. in this world. But one thing certrtain. A higher level of Kung Fu will help one achieve their objectives in combat what ever it may be. ie. the person who wants to hurt -will do so more proficiently. The person who wants to trap, subdue (like Aikido) will also do it more proficiently.

"the balttle field as you called it is the serine setting of the henan province gimore county! have you been there? it is beautiful not a battle field, and this is the birth place of all martial arts!"

What era are you talking about. The Shangdong region where many northern styles originated was a rough and tough place with many bandits during that time.

"try healing some one first! fighting is easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Not a good comparsion. Might Tyson is a great boxer but a sh1t doctor. The again a great doctor might be a sh1t fighter. Both require different skills!

Maximus Materialize!

EARTH DRAGON

07-17-2001, 06:41 PM

dear ego, you bring up very good points, people will be people, but its up to me as a teacher not to promote fighting but to help people better themselves. Its true that if a person that has been bullied or has low self asteem that learning how to get the better of someone in class may help them, but for the most part this is not the case. My students learn the fighting aspects of our system until they are mature enough to use their tecniques in a proper mannor. People by guns to protect themselves and if that is the only reason then chances are they dont pull it out to show off, however the imature gun holder may use it to intimadate someone for the sole purpose of feeling powerful with such a weapon. Kung fu is just as powerful a weapon and it takes a sound mature person to handle themselves correctly. It wasnt until I realized what kind of damage I could do to someone that made me stop fighting with people. Its almost unfair to the untrained fighter, but again if the situation like being attacked or mugged and you have no other alternative then by all means strike first, fast and hard then run. but again this is a very rare situation especially if you carry your self with confidence and poise, people read that as strength.So If all we do in our training is prepare to fight, and we never do than doesnt it seem like all that time has been wasted. All the tennis lessons in the world wont mean anything if you dont ever play.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Ego_Extrodinaire

07-19-2001, 12:01 PM

Earthdragon,

There're all types in this world. Some may be immature and others may be malicious. Both could be dangerous.

Perhaps in class if the safety aspects of training is emphasized, students would not only learn about what causes damage but also the appropriate force. eg. locking & stuff. it is important that a practitoner knows how much force to use, as much as it is to prevent unintended harm, it teaches understanding of technique as not to "over extend" beyond what's recoverable. For example over extending a punch could leave you open etc.

Situation awareness is probably the biggest life saver. At least it is the case for fighter piolets. So if you hold yourself confidently and avoid potentially dangerous situations 1/2 the battle is won. In the book "Art of War" it is recommended you fight when it's absolutely necessary - on desperate ground so to speak.

A kung fu friend of mine was recently car jacked. When a knife is held to your throat no amount of kung fu would solve the situation -except the mighty dragon hands over his wallet. This could have been prevented if the doors were locked.

Maximus Materialize!