Yuen Kay San YGKYM

[Yoshiyahu]

Lets look at difference between the YGKYM in Yip Man lineages and Yuen Kay San lineage. Why are they so differfent. Why does one have fairly straight chest and the other has a concave chest(Curl)? Whats the benefit of the concave chest. Is it okay to use both, Are do you feel one is inferior to other?

Concave: hollowed or rounded inward like the inside of a bowl, arched in : curving in.

Also YKS YGKYM is typically closer together. The Legs are almost touching. Where Yip man YGKYM looks like he standing in a horse stance only not actually sitting down in the stance??????

Is one way superior to other?

http://www.wingchun.co.uk/photos/bruce%20lee%20snt.jpg


http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_siulientao_pose.jpg


Is there a purpose for a deeper stance? Or does the stance matter?

[Pacman]

you forgot that YKS stance you are on the balls of your feet

the horse stance is in part to train muscles. when i train my knees are touching, i am on my toes, i am hunched and leaning forward like an old man about to die. as a result all weight is on my quads and my calves because i am on my toes

you lean forward, hunch, drop your shoulders for one because when you hunch and lean forward you lower your CG so that you can move around easier

you lean forward and hunch so that you can naturally put your elbows in the center (a lot harder if you are upright and your shouldrs are back)

you lean forward and hunch also so that your body is like a coiled spring. if your body is already extended then you cannot use those body parts to generate power as you strike.

[TenTigers]

are you on the balls of your feet or on the yung chuan acupoints?

[Pacman]

balls of the feet

[Yoshiyahu]

Yep the same stance my Sifu taught me. However we do not lean forward. Our chest is concaved and back appears hunched. But we are still straight. We do not lean back or forward. We stay straight with the head up. Not to far down. An we are slightly on our balls. An we slide the back foot when we front step.

Very interesting topic.



you forgot that YKS stance you are on the balls of your feet

the horse stance is in part to train muscles. when i train my knees are touching, i am on my toes, i am hunched and leaning forward like an old man about to die. as a result all weight is on my quads and my calves because i am on my toes

you lean forward, hunch, drop your shoulders for one because when you hunch and lean forward you lower your CG so that you can move around easier

you lean forward and hunch so that you can naturally put your elbows in the center (a lot harder if you are upright and your shouldrs are back)

you lean forward and hunch also so that your body is like a coiled spring. if your body is already extended then you cannot use those body parts to generate power as you strike.

[ittokaos]

Lets look at difference between the YGKYM in Yip Man lineages and Yuen Kay San lineage. Why are they so differfent. Why does one have fairly straight chest and the other has a concave chest(Curl)? Whats the benefit of the concave chest. Is it okay to use both, Are do you feel one is inferior to other?

Concave: hollowed or rounded inward like the inside of a bowl, arched in : curving in.

Also YKS YGKYM is typically closer together. The Legs are almost touching. Where Yip man YGKYM looks like he standing in a horse stance only not actually sitting down in the stance??????

Is one way superior to other?

http://www.wingchun.co.uk/photos/bruce%20lee%20snt.jpg


http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_siulientao_pose.jpg


Is there a purpose for a deeper stance? Or does the stance matter?

From what i understand, the benefit of the concave chest is the fact that you have better reach and thus adds more length power to your strikes. Also, old school kung fu fighters would frequently target the chest because it is a killing shot. If your ches is concave your arms are further out to protect and your chest is further back and thus harder to reach.

Furthermore, the back and chest can now be used to further power your strikes considering it's now in this "****ed" position. It's the same principle used in the Hakka styles as well and the Fujian styles.

The draw back is reduced speed and as I understand, Yip Man's style WC is centered around speed and therefore would have no need for the concave chest as it sacrifices one for the other. That is not to say that WC in general doesnt use this type of Chest/Back power but it is not as exaggerated and thus not as powerful.

A deeper stance is mainly used for strength and power training. In actual fighting you generally wouldn't usethe same low stance to fight with. Unless of course one was lowering oneself in order to use the tension to spring up/forward and power up the strikes. Once again, this is used in the Hakka/Fujian styles for this very purpose.

[Pacman]

From what i understand, the benefit of the concave chest is the fact that you have better reach and thus adds more length power to your strikes. Also, old school kung fu fighters would frequently target the chest because it is a killing shot. If your ches is concave your arms are further out to protect and your chest is further back and thus harder to reach.

Furthermore, the back and chest can now be used to further power your strikes considering it's now in this "****ed" position. It's the same principle used in the Hakka styles as well and the Fujian styles.

The draw back is reduced speed and as I understand, Yip Man's style WC is centered around speed and therefore would have no need for the concave chest as it sacrifices one for the other. That is not to say that WC in general doesnt use this type of Chest/Back power but it is not as exaggerated and thus not as powerful.

A deeper stance is mainly used for strength and power training. In actual fighting you generally wouldn't usethe same low stance to fight with. Unless of course one was lowering oneself in order to use the tension to spring up/forward and power up the strikes. Once again, this is used in the Hakka/Fujian styles for this very purpose.

why would hunched be slower?

we learned to fight just as low...the only difference is that when we are in the outer range we dont stand pigeon toed for mobility sake...but we take the principle of being low, hunched, coiled into practice when fighitng

[ittokaos]

Being hunched(which is bad but I know what you are saying :)) is not slower by itself but if you are using it to create power it is a slight slow down as opposed to simply striking from your position. You would have to change your position to strike and while more power is added, the the overall combo slows down if only slightly. That is one of the reason that wing chun fights the way that it does. It is one of the few styles that doesnt change it's positon(that much) when fighting and thus never loses it's speed. Also, by having your back straight you have the option of using either the back or chest in your power issuing. By "hunching" you can really use the chest but I suppose it depens on how much you are hunched.

That is not to say that you cant be fast while using this type of power generation but the speed comes from the power and unless the power is also used to reload the speed would be cut down on the reload. It is by far a more difficult way to train but the benefits are great.

[Pacman]

Being hunched(which is bad but I know what you are saying :)) is not slower by itself but if you are using it to create power it is a slight slow down as opposed to simply striking from your position. You would have to change your position to strike and while more power is added, the the overall combo slows down if only slightly. That is one of the reason that wing chun fights the way that it does. It is one of the few styles that doesnt change it's positon(that much) when fighting and thus never loses it's speed. Also, by having your back straight you have the option of using either the back or chest in your power issuing. By "hunching" you can really use the chest but I suppose it depens on how much you are hunched.

That is not to say that you cant be fast while using this type of power generation but the speed comes from the power and unless the power is also used to reload the speed would be cut down on the reload. It is by far a more difficult way to train but the benefits are great.

i kind of see what you are saying.

how do you use your chest or back to generate power, when your torso is straight?

[chusauli]

The shoulder girdle and pelvic girdle are even - there is a snapping of the pelvis and a thrust forward of the chest when the body is held straight.

Alan wrote an article of a basic training exercise I teach with the medicine ball. You can see the ilustration in the article:

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/wcpowerarticle.html

Better yet, try it with a 15 or 20 lb medicine ball. Try it hunchbacked, then try it with straight body and report back to us.

Hunchback training is fine if you want to look like Quasimodo. It messes up the alignment of the internal organs, is poor for the spine, and bad for your breathing, and health. You can talk to orthopedic doctors, chiropractors or acupuncturists about this. In yogic and qi gong traditions poor posture is also incorrectly misaligning the chakras, calling for disharmony between the emotions, and in mental and spritual development.

I am not sure if Sum Nung taught it incorrectly, or whether people interpreted it wrong. I am also of YKS lineage, and have great respect for the lineage, but one has to look at YJKYM from a point of view of health, alignment and martial context.

WCK should not make you look like a gnome. :) If Wing Chun or Ng Mui did make an art like WCK, would they want to look like a dude wasted on opium? Perhaps that is where the posture comes from.

[Pacman]

interesting read about the pelvic thrust. in SN WC we generate power through pivoting and extension of back and shoulders. power is transferred efficiently though alignment of bones.

i cant speak from a chinese medicine perspective except that i have heard of "sunken chest and shoulders" in tai chi training as well and that my teacher is very knowledgeable from a chinese medical perspective and into longevity and internal organ health (crazy about the kidneys). he is very cautious about not doing anything adverse healthwise.

SN learned from YKS directly so it would be surprising if he misunderstood something so fundamental.

when i trained with SN on a few occasions he kept telling me to hunch more and more and to get lower and lower.

i dont mind looking like quasimoto or an opium addict when fighting. id rather look like that then dry hump my opponent with pelvic thrusts


The shoulder girdle and pelvic girdle are even - there is a snapping of the pelvis and a thrust forward of the chest when the body is held straight.

Alan wrote an article of a basic training exercise I teach with the medicine ball. You can see the ilustration in the article:

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/wcpowerarticle.html

Better yet, try it with a 15 or 20 lb medicine ball. Try it hunchbacked, then try it with straight body and report back to us.

Hunchback training is fine if you want to look like Quasimodo. It messes up the alignment of the internal organs, is poor for the spine, and bad for your breathing, and health. You can talk to orthopedic doctors, chiropractors or acupuncturists about this. In yogic and qi gong traditions poor posture is also incorrectly misaligning the chakras, calling for disharmony between the emotions, and in mental and spritual development.

I am not sure if Sum Nung taught it incorrectly, or whether people interpreted it wrong. I am also of YKS lineage, and have great respect for the lineage, but one has to look at YJKYM from a point of view of health, alignment and martial context.

WCK should not make you look like a gnome. :) If Wing Chun or Ng Mui did make an art like WCK, would they want to look like a dude wasted on opium? Perhaps that is where the posture comes from.

[couch]

I know this thread has the topic of YKSWC, but I would just like to comment on the fact that there are generally other influences in people's WC. I, for one, also like somewhat of a boxing frame. I also have a Kenpo Karateish background and a (limited) TWC background. When I finally get around to training Judo, it will influence the way I perform my WC.

When I see hunch/concave Wing Chun, it reminds me of two other arts: White Crane Kung-Fu and White Brow. Both generate a lot of power through coiling while striking. I can see how this could directly influence Wing Chun.

Check out Martin: http://www.fujianbaihe.com/fujianbaihe/videos/dd_jiandan_all.avi

At around 1:00, it looks very reminiscent of Po Pai Jeung. If you watch closely, you'll see his back moving. In White Brow, there is even more hunching of the back for explosive power. My good martial arts friend of 15 years studied White Brow. Could never get one of his rings off his finger. During one of the forms, he shot his ring clear across the room. LOL

Best,
K

[chusauli]

interesting read about the pelvic thrust. in SN WC we generate power through pivoting and extension of back and shoulders. power is transferred efficiently though alignment of bones.

i cant speak from a chinese medicine perspective except that i have heard of "sunken chest and shoulders" in tai chi training as well and that my teacher is very knowledgeable from a chinese medical perspective and into longevity and internal organ health (crazy about the kidneys). he is very cautious about not doing anything adverse healthwise.

SN learned from YKS directly so it would be surprising if he misunderstood something so fundamental.

when i trained with SN on a few occasions he kept telling me to hunch more and more and to get lower and lower.

i dont mind looking like quasimoto or an opium addict when fighting. id rather look like that then dry hump my opponent with pelvic thrusts


The Daoists have spoken of alignment of the 3 Dantian for centuries. When the chest is hollow in SN WCK and Tai Ji, is that not breaking that principle? Perhaps a study of anatomy or physiology is needed? Remember in Chinese Medicine, the Kidneys communicate with the other 4 major organs: Heart, Spleen, Lungs, Liver. Please look into that. It is not just the Kidneys. Your posture needs to be upright so that the internal organs can receive proper circulation of energy and blood. Being hunched over obstructs that.

I enjoy this conversation, as I have thought about this for many years and practiced both ways of hunch back and non hunchback.

I am not saying SN learned anything wrong, perhaps the difference is in interpretation?

The idea is not to dry hump an opponent, the idea is to f --- up the opponent! LOL! And to issue this force is the result of the alignment. At any rate, it explains the reasons for both forms of slouch or straight. I don't wish to invalidate Yuen Kay Shan or Sum Nung WCK, as I am part of the family. Who's to say that YKS did not have some unusual kyphosis as he aged/ailed and taught the young SN? The very tall Moy Yat (6' 2") was known to have kyphosis as he copied the very short Yip Man (5' 0")...many in that lineage are also slightly hunchbacked...

What I will say is the way I use power, you do not need to pivot nor extend your back/shoulders. You are the using localized power of back and shoulders, instead of power from the body, horse and waist/low back. WCK states "Yiu, Shen, Ma Lik" - "Waist, Torso, Horse Power".

Thank you for your observations Pacman.

Best regards,

[Pacman]

The Daoists have spoken of alignment of the 3 Dantian for centuries. When the chest is hollow in SN WCK and Tai Ji, is that not breaking that principle? Perhaps a study of anatomy or physiology is needed?

i cant say. like i said i do not know much of Chinese medicine, but the fact that this posture is present in other soft styles, very conscious of chi development, gives support for its validity in so much as that it at least does not violate any Taoist teachings. Perhaps a brush up of Chinese medicine is needed?


You are the using localized power of back and shoulders, instead of power from the body, horse and waist/low back

we are using everything. localized back shoulders, waist, body alignment, and legs. like in tai chi, the goal is full body coordination

[Pacman]

i had my suspicions about bagua, so i did a quick google search and found this:

http://pakuachangjournal.com/circleWalk.php?page=3


In practice, it is necessary to pay attention to these important details:
...
...
...
3. The back is rounded yet straight and erect while the chest is held in a hollow.
...
...
...
The Ba Gua Zhang classics say "Hollow the chest, suspend the crown, and sink the waist."

[Hendrik]

OK,

enough to argue about doing this way and that way.

What All IMA artists does after mastering the basic of their art ; doesnt even have to think and they drop into that state.

Yes, State. Think means dont know. Yes, Drop in. Just let go and it is in that alignement.


So if you know that proper state all IMA drop into. Dont answer the following if you dont know but needs to think because you will misleading yourself and others.


How does it feel? I careless what you do or how you going to clamp your hip.....etc. How does it feel when it is proper.

also, to do YJKYM in the soft way one needs to loosen up the whole body. and how do one loosen up one's hip? how do one loosen up one's waist? what is hip what is waist? how is that related to the slight concave in the butt? all these details. to be real honest, if you cant handle these above in details you dont have it. Thus, dont even mention about soft or IMA.

[chusauli]

No argument, just discussion.

What I said about the Kidneys and relationship to the other organs is Chinese Medicine. That is why the 3 dan tian are aligned when straight.

As for Ba Gua being hollow chested, I will say that it shares issues with Tai Ji and Xing Yi as well. These rounded shouldered versions are results of embracing the Dan Tian and raising the Kua to feel empowered. In one version of Gong Bao Tian's Ba Gua, the chest is held straight, open...no hunchback or hollow chest. That is the minority, but it has enormous ramifications...Ba Gua is not Xing Yi, nor Tai Ji, although many people play Tai Ji Ba Gua and Xing Yi Ba Gua. But that's an issue for another discussion forum.

Hendrik is very correct in getting into the "state", when you touch, the body is automatically aligned. In advanced stages, you let go of the clinging to form. The form was for you to develop good habits and expedient. The outward shape is negligible later - the question is if the 6 harmonies are coordinated. We cannot leave that.

Even at times, Hawkins Cheung stood with toes outward, yet he had body structure. I felt Hendrik's stance at one time was too narrow, now I feel it is just right. My own stance is not a stance anymore, just a position; and any position is good, as long as one gets it correctly. Defining "Correctly" will vary.

My structure tests talked about a test for feeling energy and being aligned.

All is fine if you can use it. Its all good.

[hunt1]

Real question. Are people that train YKS wing chun different in any physical way from all other humans?

[chusauli]

Not at all.

I would say YKS is very similar to the system Yip Man taught in Futshan and to Leung Sheung...

[Hendrik]

Robert,

As we get older we all changes how to express the art our way isnt it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Robert,

As we get older we all changes how to express the art our way isnt it?

A very good observation.
When one looks at a given master and sees what and how they taught when they were younger, VS when they got older, we will see quite a change in many cases.

[Pacman]

Not at all.

I would say YKS is very similar to the system Yip Man taught in Futshan and to Leung Sheung...

i respectfully disagree. this discussion points out one of the many differences and only supports the notion that not all wing chun kuen are the same. i know lots of people like to say wing chun kuen is wing chun kuen. we are all one wing family...but there are many distinctive differences IMO

[Hendrik]

this discussion points out one of the many differences and only supports the notion that not all wing chun kuen are the same. i know lots of people like to say wing chun kuen is wing chun kuen. we are all one wing family...but there are many distinctive differences IMO


Wing Chun 1850 is Wing Chun.

Today, Wing Chun might not be 1850's Wing Chun and evolve. But in a shallow big picture WCK is still WCK.


Now, if one needs to get deeper, then

Saying that, one needs to tell in specific what is WCK? What is your lineage of WCK become and why is that evolusion occur? what is that distinctive differences contribute?



Otherwise, it becomes a my words versus your words arguements.



EVen within the same family, evolution from one sec of the family vesus other sec of the family. that is nature. It is always great to hear the reason behind it and it is always political and wasting of time when insist "my if the oldest" but without any reason and showing what is the result of that evolusion.


Human is Human, if one doesnt violate a certain principle then the human body can function petty well within the boundary.

The issue here is if one violate the Human body boundary and keep arguing. Then that is a big issue.

Certainly, one can do what one wants. Free world. However, that is not saying what one practice is proper .


For example, it is all known. if the shoulder get tense and hold up, the breath will be stuck in chest, and that cause one's lower body to be weak or cant move propely.

For example , it is all known. if one's chest is concave in too much the breath will stuck in chest and again, that cause one's lower body to not function properly.

These type of practice has weak lower gate reflection. Not to mention in a long term it doesnt improve the lung capacity.

and what about oxygen and blood circulation in high intensity action? one doesnt have to think deep to see the logic.


Those are facts about human body.



The practioner who have master the body posture feel like levitating in the air. Yes, levitating in the air, and they dont need to think or adjust, just levitate.

So what is faa Jing or neutralized the incomming force, be cause they levitate. the incomming force have a difficulty in landing on them. Thus it is said, a single feather cannot land.


any place in the body as soon as one feel its existance is already using brute force in the IMA standard. Not to mention, purposely claimping this or rooting, sinking that.... those are just reverse of proper practice. those are great for being take down because one get oneself to be stuck.

[Yoshiyahu]

What does kuit kuen actually say about YGKYM?

What does Pull in chest mean?


http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Yee_Jee_Kim_Yeung_Ma


Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma


- Pull in the chest, push out the upper back, and bring in the tail bone.

- Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

- Point the knees and toes inward.

- Form a pyramid with the center of gravity in the center.

- Fists are placed by the side of the ribs but not touching the body.

- Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist.

- Hold the head and neck straight and keep the spirit alert.

- Eyes are level, looking straight ahead, and watching all directions.

- The mind is free of distractions and the mood is bright.

- There is no fear when facing the opponent.

- Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma is the main stance.

- Develop a good foundation for advanced techniques.


-Now on power Generation-

Now When striking there are multiple facets of generating power in WC.

1. Concaved Chest Expansion upon impact
2. Convexed Chest Concaved upon impact
3. Use the Breathe upon impact
4. Use the Waist to generate Power
5. Use the Hips to generate Power
6. Use body shift to generate power
7. Use your step to generate power.

So all these various ways of Generating power with punches can be used. They can be combined of course. But one can use a non-concave chest to generate power by concaving the chest on impact. So many ways to generate power.

The key is to practice Standing in Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma

A. While the chest sunk in.
B. Upper Back is pushed out
C. Knees touching or gripping a tennis ball.
D. Sink your weight down.
E. Tail Bone is in.

Practice standing in this stance for 5 minutes to 30 minutes a day. An then possessing the Curl(concave chest) will become natural. Eventually you should also practice Chi Sau and then free sparring with the chest curled. After it becomes natural. Then you will be curled or coiled and not even know it.

Questions for Chuasli?

1. Do Bak Mei Fighters curl their chest?
2. Do Baqua fighters curl the chest?
3. Do Snake Fighters curl the chest?
4. Did Bruce Lee Curled the chest?



Pictures of the curl (concave the chest) being used in chi sau!

http://www.brooklynwt.com/files/images/brucechisau.jpg

http://www.phoenixwingchun.com/bruce-lee-yip-man-b.jpg

http://www.chwingchun.com.au/yip1.jpg

http://www.chwingchun.com.au/yip.jpg

http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v106/63/9/825225353/n825225353_1508364_3550.jpg

[Hendrik]

Yoshiyahu forget about all the long laundry list of non sense,

Can your whole body turn into "levitate Weightless" and move with ease without any join stuck? if not then go train and not messing with all the words.


Learning from blind man about a running truck is going to get you kill in the high way.


or I give you an easy test.

Stand in the YJKYM, and tell me how can you loose up your hip. how is it feel with a loose hip?

How do you loose up your chest, how is it feel with a loose chest?


Yes, Just that, if you cant then nothing to talk about but you needs to go Bai Si and learn.


Sorry for my direct words.

[Pacman]

Wing Chun 1850 is Wing Chun.

Today, Wing Chun might not be 1850's Wing Chun and evolve. But in a shallow big picture WCK is still WCK.


Now, if one needs to get deeper, then

Saying that, one needs to tell in specific what is WCK? What is your lineage of WCK become and why is that evolusion occur? what is that distinctive differences contribute?

bottom line. there are similarities. there are differences. to me, IMO the differences between different teachers and lineages are significant



For example , it is all known. if one's chest is concave in too much the breath will stuck in chest and again, that cause one's lower body to not function properly.

we breath with the expansion of the stomach and not the chest

[Pacman]

Pictures of the curl (concave the chest) being used in chi sau!

http://www.brooklynwt.com/files/images/brucechisau.jpg

http://www.phoenixwingchun.com/bruce-lee-yip-man-b.jpg

http://www.chwingchun.com.au/yip1.jpg

http://www.chwingchun.com.au/yip.jpg

http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v106/63/9/825225353/n825225353_1508364_3550.jpg

actually those pics of yip man do not represent what we do in SN Wing Chun. He is leaning backwards, we hunch and lean forward.

Imagine if you want to push something really heavy like a car. Do you lean forward so that when you push you can use your legs or do you lean backwards?

This is the same principle. When you strike, you want to be able to absorb impact efficiently so energy is not lost

[Pacman]

im just being honest here. please just give up writing on this forum. no one can make sense of anything you write. you are just wasting your time



Yoshiyahu forget about all the long laundry list of non sense,

Can your whole body turn into "levitate Weightless" and move with ease without any join stuck? if not then go train and not messing with all the words.


Learning from blind man about a running truck is going to get you kill in the high way.


or I give you an easy test.

Stand in the YJKYM, and tell me how can you loose up your hip. how is it feel with a loose hip?

How do you loose up your chest, how is it feel with a loose chest?


Yes, Just that, if you cant then nothing to talk about but you needs to go Bai Si and learn.


Sorry for my direct words.

[Hendrik]

im just being honest here. please just give up writing on this forum. no one can make sense of anything you write. you are just wasting your time



if this forum is you only. Then, you are right.


But this forum is not you that is the communication is for----- to those who is real human being and what they train got to making some sense.


BTW, the post you qoute is from me to Yoshiyahu. not you .

if you like to communicate please share what is your answer on the following?
if you are not up to that level what is the point to discuss on YJKYM?

-------------------

Stand in the YJKYM, and tell me how can you loose up your hip. how is it feel with a loose hip?

How do you loose up your chest, how is it feel with a loose chest?

[Yoshiyahu]

I have no idea what the heck you talking about...sorry buddy. but i guess its all good. Great post anyway hendrick. One day I have to learn Mandarid so you can talk to me directly. Because english aint working for you!


Yoshiyahu forget about all the long laundry list of non sense,

Can your whole body turn into "levitate Weightless" and move with ease without any join stuck? if not then go train and not messing with all the words.


Learning from blind man about a running truck is going to get you kill in the high way.


or I give you an easy test.

Stand in the YJKYM, and tell me how can you loose up your hip. how is it feel with a loose hip?

How do you loose up your chest, how is it feel with a loose chest?


Yes, Just that, if you cant then nothing to talk about but you needs to go Bai Si and learn.


Sorry for my direct words.

Yes Pacman Yip man may not be leaning forward as you do. But the Curl is still there showing clear evidence the curl is practice in WC. If a person doesn't have a curl like Yip and Bruce then something was not passed down to them. Even Bruce Lee who didnt have the entire system possessed a curl. That means those out there with out the curl have watered down WC. But I have to see what you mean pacman about this leaning.

We are taught not to lean forward or backwards but keep the back straight. All though the back is push out it is still straight. The correct posistion and alignment is still upheld. We do not lean to forward because then you are vunerable to pulls. Nor do we lean to far back because your weight will be to far on your heels and you will be vunerable to a push.



YGKYM (Practice for ten minutes a day)

-Remember to sink in the chest.

-Lower your stance so knees are touching.

-Place weight on balls of your feet.

-Tilt Pelvic In

-Relax shoulders

-keep head straight

-Have fist under your armpits

-Do not allow fist to touch the body

-Breath naturally (Breathe comes from Lower Dan Tien)

-Keep body straight

-Do not lean to far forward or backward

[Hendrik]

I have no idea what the heck you talking about...sorry buddy.

but i guess its all good. Great post anyway hendrick. One day I have to learn Mandarid so you can talk to me directly. Because english aint working for you!





1, that is nothing to do with langauge.

2, Stand in the YJKYM, and tell me how do you loose up your hip and how is it feel with a loose hip?

How do you loose up your chest, how is it feel with a loose chest?

if you dont know the above then you dont even do YJKYM enough.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"im just being honest here. please just give up writing on this forum. no one can make sense of anything you write. you are just wasting your time." (Pacman)
...........................................

***I CAME to the same conclusion about 5 years ago.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well since I am ignorant to what you are trying to say please share with me the answer to your obscure question?


Answer to Hendric obscure question:
Do you loose up you hip from practice.

when you first try something new your body will be tight and stiff. after enough practice your body will adjust. you will be able to loosen the hip and waist after you practice. the key is practice practice.



1, that is nothing to do with langauge.

2, Stand in the YJKYM, and tell me how do you loose up your hip and how is it feel with a loose hip?

How do you loose up your chest, how is it feel with a loose chest?

if you dont know the above then you dont even do YJKYM enough.

[t_niehoff]

Yoshiyahu -- Your tag line says

"I'm Located in St.Louis looking for fighting and sparring partners. Real fighters not the ones who try to make up outrageous excuses on why they can't fight you and require you to pay some nominal fee$ to spar with them."

Let's clear this up. I was not requiring you to pay anything to spar with us. But, we are training at a YMCA and to get into the Y you either have to join or pay a visitors fee. I explained this to you. I don't get the money, the Y does. And it is only $10.

The fact that you p1ssed and moaned about how you wanted to see how we trained, that you wanted to come sapr with us, and so on, and that I relented -- since I originally didn't want anything to do with you or your crazy, quasi-cult false YKS WCK group that I know all too well -- and then you came up with the excuse that you wouldn't pay anything told me that you are full of sh1t. I told you as much.

Eddie Ma is a joke. So was McField (the only person he could beat up was his exwife). And so is Burnside and the rest. That you think any of them have the remotest skill in WCK is a complete fantasy.

If you really want good sparring partners, then visit Vaghi's or Ron Smith's or Finney's or any of the dozen or so places where good, proven fighters train. But we both know that you'll never, ever do that. After all, you'll need to pay to train -- and more than 10 friggin' dollars.

[t_niehoff]

And while I am on the subject of tag lines:

Victor, I don't claim to be anything special -- but I can at least prove I'm as good as Cheung. If I post video of myself lying on the ground getting pummled, will that do?

[Ultimatewingchun]

And while I am on the subject of tag lines:

Victor, I don't claim to be anything special -- but I can at least prove I'm as good as Cheung. If I post video of myself lying on the ground getting pummled, will that do?
......................................

***DID YOU SEE THIS POST, ROBERT?

Any questions now as to why so many people have nothing but contempt for Terence Niehoff? Here he is talking more trash about a famous wing chun sifu (and the same William Cheung who you acknowledged to me as being one of your heroes - as you made your wing chun journey).

Now Terence, let's translate your latest arrogant and pathetic trash into English, shall we?

"I, Terence Niehoff, don't want to have to post any vids of myself attempting to demonstrate even 1/10 of the martial art skills that I constantly want to preach about to the members of this forum - which I've been called out about on numerous occasions lately....because I can't back up all my talk with any real, competent skills of my own.

So in order to try and stop all this from continuing, I will attempt to insult and embarass the guy who's been leading the charge around here regarding my vids (or the lack of them, ie.- not even one, after all these years)...by talking like a 16 year old clown/imposter about a wing chun Grandmaster even my own instructor has acknowledged big respect for! :rolleyes:

It's okay...Hey, I'M TERENCE NIEHOFF. :cool:

I'll cover all the contradictions between what I say and what I do (or more to the point: can't do)....with more post-after-post bombardment of the forum with the same ol' crap I always try to lay on them.

Maybe the forum won't notice the huge contradictions, or maybe they will become so worn down by my constant barrage of arrogant 'show-me-or-else-I-don't-believe-it...standards that I apply to all of them but don't apply to myself' crap that they will feel too overwhelmed to rebutt my a55."

LOL with that, Terence.

[t_niehoff]

......................................

***DID YOU SEE THIS POST, ROBERT?

Any questions now as to why so many people have nothing but contempt for Terence Niehoff? Here he is talking more trash about a famous wing chun sifu (and the same William Cheung who you acknowledged to me as being one of your heroes - as you made your wing chun journey).


Cheung represents a huge part of what's wrong with WCK. Famous? Yes. But famous doesn't necessarily mean good.



Now Terence, let's translate your latest arrogant and pathetic trash into English, shall we?

"I, Terence Niehoff, don't want to have to post any vids of myself attempting to demonstrate even 1/10 of the martial art skills that I constantly want to preach about to the members of this forum - which I've been called out about on numerous occasions lately....because I can't back up all my talk with any real, competent skills of my own.

So in order to try and stop all this from continuing, I will attempt to insult and embarass the guy who's been leading the charge around here regarding my vids (or the lack of them, ie.- not even one, after all these years)...by talking like a 16 year old clown/imposter about a wing chun Grandmaster even my own instructor has acknowledged big respect for! :rolleyes:

It's okay...Hey, I'M TERENCE NIEHOFF. :cool:


Yes, I am pointing out that you keep asking for me to post videos of myself as some bona fide of my skills, yet your own sifu and grandmaster can't do it. The only video of his skill in action is his getting pummled. Since you seem to accept this as proof of his good WCK skill, shouldn't it be the same for me? ;)



I'll cover all the contradictions between what I say and what I do (or more to the point: can't do)....with more post-after-post bombardment of the forum with the same ol' crap I always try to lay on them.

Maybe the forum won't notice the huge contradictions, or maybe they will become so worn down by my constant barrage of arrogant 'show-me-or-else-I-don't-believe-it...standards that I apply to all of them but don't apply to myself' crap that they will feel too overwhelmed to rebutt my a55."

LOL with that, Terence.

Maybe they'll see the irony of you calling for videos of proof of skill of others when your own sifu and grandmster doesn't have any -- where the only video evidence proves just the opposite.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And after this latest post....

Case closed.

Terence is lost.

[t_niehoff]

And after this latest post....

Case closed.

Terence is lost.

Oh, Cheung's case was closed 20 years ago . . . yet, some people just can't leave the 80s.

If I'm lost, I'm lost in reality. You should visit there sometime, you might find it superior to the imaginary world of catch wrestling and Cheung's deadly finger strikes to pressure points following a hopping entry.

[Ultimatewingchun]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....:p

R.I.P.

[Hendrik]

"im just being honest here. please just give up writing on this forum. no one can make sense of anything you write. you are just wasting your time." (Pacman)
...........................................

***I CAME to the same conclusion about 5 years ago.

Perhaps you are right. or

perhaps you are not yet at the level to know what is being communicate?

[t_niehoff]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....:p

R.I.P.

Was that the sound Cheung made on the ground?

Or, is that what happens when you get hit by one of those deadly fingerstrikes to a dim mak point?

BTW, Mr. Video, when are you going to post that video on bullshido THAT YOU PROMISED them showing your "hook defense" (to a swing, not a hook - but I excuse the error since you apparently learned boxing via video just as you did catch) against a genuine boxer in hard sparring? Why did you PROMISE to do one back in March and still not produce one? For someone SOOOOO concerned with videos, I'd think you would be on the ball.

And, when are you going to meet with Kung Fu Joe from bullshido, the BJJ blue belt, that you also said you would meet with (was that in April?). The last we heard, you told him you couldn't meet because you were working on your hook video!

[Hendrik]

Answer to Hendric obscure question:


It is not obscure question but a deadly serious basic question. Hip region has the biggest joins in one's body. which influence the whole body physical action.

Are you serious if you dont even know how to handling it?





Do you loose up you hip from practice.

when you first try something new your body will be tight and stiff. after enough practice your body will adjust.

you will be able to loosen the hip and waist after you practice. the key is practice practice.



You are being really honest.


But you dont know the method that is the problem.

The key is NOT practice practice. NOT the body will not adjust.

The Key is knowing the Method and then practice practice.

with a tight hip, forget about the YJKYM. One doesnt even know how to stand. Forget about rooting and all those stuffs, for one doesnt even know how to handle's one's body basic.

Isnt it tell you there is big reason why WCner easily get take down?



There is a very serious problem here,
and I am trying to tell you.
Sure you dont know what I am talking about
and seriously think! how serious is for one has no control on one's hip?

[Ultimatewingchun]

You don't seem to get it. I don't have to respond to you about anything.

It's you who's lost his credibility around here, not me.

[Hendrik]

You don't seem to get it. I don't have to respond to you about anything.

It's you who's lost his credibility around here, not me.



EVeryone can be a critic on Obama but how many of them can manage their own business well?

Sure, everyone is a great critics, and what is the credibility of these critics?



If you are serious about contributing and having credibility. Please Teach the young WCners here how to loosen their hip.

[t_niehoff]

You don't seem to get it. I don't have to respond to you about anything.

It's you who's lost his credibility around here, not me.

Sure. Mr. Video PROMISES videos and doesn't deliver. But he says it's me who lost credibility. Remember when I was talking about reality and how it is a good place to visit?

Yes, someone who learns catch off of video and rolls a bit with his students yet argues grappling with a BJJ BB has credibility.

Someone who has never trained with genuine boxers or wrestlers, yet teaches boxing and wrestling to his students has credibility.

Oh, yeah, it's not you. ;)

[Hendrik]

Honestly and seriously,

anyone wants to talk about YJKYM, first needs to solve the HIP handling. That is the based or the Center. That is also your engine which if it is Jam you go down with it.

In case you are not clear on what I am talking


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip

[Ultimatewingchun]

I posted sparring vids on this forum years ago.

And I don't talk the 5hit you talk.

NO, IT'S YOU, TERENCE NIEHOFF, WHO HAS YET TO PROVE THAT HE'S ANYTHING MORE THAN JUST A TALKER. WHERE ARE THE VIDS BACKING UP YOUR CLAIMS THAT YOU'VE BEEN COMPETENTLY TRAINED AND THAT WCK IS YOUR PRIMARY ART?

[t_niehoff]

I posted sparring vids on this forum years ago.

And I don't talk the 5hit you talk.

NO, IT'S YOU, TERENCE NIEHOFF, WHO HAS YET TO PROVE THAT HE'S ANYTHING MORE THAN A TALKER. WHERE ARE THE VIDS BACKING UP YOUR CLAIMS THAT YOU'VE BEEN COMPENTENTLY SKILLED AND THAT WCK IS YOUR PRIMARY ART?

You don't like that I point out the truth -- that competent fighting skills, regardless of the art, comes from hundreds of hours of sparring with good, proven, competent fighters. It's that simple.

But that simple truth and its ramifications repudiates everything you believe and stand for.

As I have said, that truth doesn't depend on me or my authority or my skill. It has been proved by all fighters. You just don't want to accept it.

If you want to see my WCK, visit me, make the effort, get off your ass, do the work.

It's just another example of you not wanting to do the work but expecting to get what you want. Apparently that is your way.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And apparently you will never post any vids to back up your claims about yourself.

[t_niehoff]

And apparently you will never post any vids to back up your claims about yourself.

I may post some in the future -- but I won't do as you do and promise them and then not deliver. ;)

Quite frankly, no matter what you see, you won't be convinced. The only thing that can possibly convince you is your own experience. It's easy to explain away and justify things when you don't directly experience them. When it is done to you, it is an entirely different matter. And that's why I tell you that if you want to see my WCK to visit me.

And, regardless of any "claims" I made, my POV doesn't rely on my skills or abilities -- as I have repeatedly said, if we want to learn how to effectively learn and develop fighting skills, then we should listen and follow what genuine proven fighters and fight trainers say and do. And if my views -- or yours or anyone's -- differs from what they do, I'd defer to them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'LL CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION AFTER I SEE YOUR VIDS.

And if there's anything good on them, I'll say so.

[t_niehoff]

I'LL CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION AFTER I SEE YOUR VIDS.

And if there's anything good on them, I'll say so.

What part of

"no matter what you see, you won't be convinced. The only thing that can possibly convince you is your own experience. It's easy to explain away and justify things when you don't directly experience them. When it is done to you, it is an entirely different matter. And that's why I tell you that if you want to see my WCK to visit me"

didn't you understand?

You will look at any video from your own perspective, from your own experience, from your own skill level. So, if you don't have competent skills, then you will look at any video from an incompetent view. What is the opinion of an incompetent perswon worht? This is why you can't grasp what Dale tells you about grappling. If you rolled with Dale, he's be choking you out very quickly, then you'd know. But you can watch all the grappling videos in the world, but without the genuine experience, you won't get it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And what part of...

I DON'T GIVE A 5HIT ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY WITHOUT EVIDENCE THAT YOU HAVE ANY WING CHUN AND OVERALL FIGHTING SKILLS BEYOND BEGINNER LEVEL...

don't you understand?

[t_niehoff]

And what part of...

I DON'T GIVE A 5HIT ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY WITHOUT EVIDENCE THAT YOU HAVE ANY WING CHUN AND OVERALL FIGHTING SKILLS BEYOND BEGINNER LEVEL...

don't you understand?

Oh, I understand. I know that's how you feel, and it only shows that you have very poor reasoning skills.

As I said, the validity of my views on training doesn't rely or depend on my skills. My views are informed and based on what proven good fighters and fight trainers say and do. They are based on sport science. These things are readily available to anyone and have been proved beyond any doubt by the results of innumerable atheltes and researchers. And as I keep saying: do not take my word (or your word) but look to these experts. So, how does my skills or ability in any way impact on that? It doesn't. Whether I am great or crap or in-between, it doesn't make any difference since I am saying listen to the proven experts and do what they do.

[hunt1]

Another thread with potenial gone to pot! Perhaps Victor and T could have their own thread and the Mod could move all their back and forth posting there.

[hunt1]

Robert where I was heading with my question is this. Even though we all know 2+2=4 some believe 2+2=5 because some great teacher,preacher etc tells them its so for a particular practice or event.

All humans are the same physically with in certain parameters, that make some more athletic than others, with the same possibilities. Hendirck is making a good point that most are missing.

The middle of the body ,hip waist area, is the part of the body that must be used to bring the power energy etc up from the lower body to power the upper body actions.

If you cant fully activate that area you actions become upper body only or arm only etc.

Proper mechanics go across all physical activities. There are not ways for wing chun only.

[chusauli]

Robert where I was heading with my question is this. Even though we all know 2+2=4 some believe 2+2=5 because some great teacher,preacher etc tells them its so for a particular practice or event.

All humans are the same physically with in certain parameters, that make some more athletic than others, with the same possibilities. Hendirck is making a good point that most are missing.

The middle of the body ,hip waist area, is the part of the body that must be used to bring the power energy etc up from the lower body to power the upper body actions.

If you cant fully activate that area you actions become upper body only or arm only etc.

Proper mechanics go across all physical activities. There are not ways for wing chun only.



Hunt,

No problemo! I agree - proper mechanics are the only way to go.

Tiger Woods is a good study for golf, Valery Federenko for Kettlebell Lifting, and all other athletes are a good study in mechanics in their fields.

The Kua/pelvis/hip/waist/low back are all involved in WCK. Arm only or upper body only WCK is a sham, yet many only do that.

I have to say, if I overlooked the Yuen Kay Shan/Sum Nung function of the YJKYM due to ignorance, then I need to relook that. If my way of having the sternum and shoulder girdle equal to the pelvic girdle and is equally overlooked by others due to adherence to their own teachings, then there is also a problem. I have ways of testing it, developing it, and have it field tested as well, and I have shared my POV with the WCK public. This is all anyone can try. Nothing in itself is completely right or wrong, nor would I dare presume I speak for everyone in WCK as the final word or authority.

I'll taste other teas and see.

Many thanks,

[chusauli]

Victor and Terence,

What can I say??? :confused:

You guys have had this going for a long time, and it spans many posts and forums.

You guys need to duke this out yourselves. When Terence recovers and back in performance mode, maybe you two get together somehow and do your own thing.

Terence's opinions are his own, as outspoken as he is. The USA has freedom of speech.

Victor's Sifu is very famous - being talked about goes with the territory.

I'll say just more patience and tolerence is needed for everyone here.

[Pacman]

i think the point is not the $10 its the fact that he was going to meet some other dude that isn't you. the whole point is to meet you


Yoshiyahu -- Your tag line says

"I'm Located in St.Louis looking for fighting and sparring partners. Real fighters not the ones who try to make up outrageous excuses on why they can't fight you and require you to pay some nominal fee$ to spar with them."

Let's clear this up. I was not requiring you to pay anything to spar with us. But, we are training at a YMCA and to get into the Y you either have to join or pay a visitors fee. I explained this to you. I don't get the money, the Y does. And it is only $10.

The fact that you p1ssed and moaned about how you wanted to see how we trained, that you wanted to come sapr with us, and so on, and that I relented -- since I originally didn't want anything to do with you or your crazy, quasi-cult false YKS WCK group that I know all too well -- and then you came up with the excuse that you wouldn't pay anything told me that you are full of sh1t. I told you as much.

Eddie Ma is a joke. So was McField (the only person he could beat up was his exwife). And so is Burnside and the rest. That you think any of them have the remotest skill in WCK is a complete fantasy.

If you really want good sparring partners, then visit Vaghi's or Ron Smith's or Finney's or any of the dozen or so places where good, proven fighters train. But we both know that you'll never, ever do that. After all, you'll need to pay to train -- and more than 10 friggin' dollars.

[chusauli]

What does kuit kuen actually say about YGKYM?

What does Pull in chest mean?


http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Yee_Jee_Kim_Yeung_Ma


Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma




-Now on power Generation-

Now When striking there are multiple facets of generating power in WC.

1. Concaved Chest Expansion upon impact
2. Convexed Chest Concaved upon impact
3. Use the Breathe upon impact
4. Use the Waist to generate Power
5. Use the Hips to generate Power
6. Use body shift to generate power
7. Use your step to generate power.

So all these various ways of Generating power with punches can be used. They can be combined of course. But one can use a non-concave chest to generate power by concaving the chest on impact. So many ways to generate power.

The key is to practice Standing in Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma

A. While the chest sunk in.
B. Upper Back is pushed out
C. Knees touching or gripping a tennis ball.
D. Sink your weight down.
E. Tail Bone is in.

Practice standing in this stance for 5 minutes to 30 minutes a day. An then possessing the Curl(concave chest) will become natural. Eventually you should also practice Chi Sau and then free sparring with the chest curled. After it becomes natural. Then you will be curled or coiled and not even know it.

Questions for Chuasli?

1. Do Bak Mei Fighters curl their chest?
2. Do Baqua fighters curl the chest?
3. Do Snake Fighters curl the chest?
4. Did Bruce Lee Curled the chest?



Yoshi,

You have a long list...but again, my way is based on functionality. My motto is, "Let function rule over form" and "Let application be your guide". You already know the answers to your lists above, but that does not mean I agree with it for myself, nor my students and grandstudents. The body structure I advocate does not agree to what is popular or even what is traditionally or commonly taught...

Anyway, Bak Mei, Ba Gua, Sae Ying, and Bruce Lee have nothing to do with my WCK. I already told the WCK world in articles and publications about my chest up, not sunken, and why. Throughout my training, I have tested this way out for myself. Later on teaching, I gave it a testing process, producing certain results, and documented it. There are equal parallels to my method in other arts. My students and grandstudents have also proven it in competition in MMA and full contact matches as a method of issuing power and maintaining pressure on the opponent.

If something is practical and flies in the face of what is popular, maybe you should think - what is the value of this to me? Why would I want to be out in the world to face ridicule, scorn, contempt, and generally TCMA badmouthing if I wasn't confident of my findings? And since I am no nut or megalomaniac, and generally an approachable and reasonable guy - why not just try it, then let me know your findings?

[chusauli]

i think the point is not the $10 its the fact that he was going to meet some other dude that isn't you. the whole point is to meet you

WTF? $10 a barrier? Come on!

[Pacman]

WTF? $10 a barrier? Come on!

i dont know why you said that. i just said that the problem was not the $10, it was something else

[Hendrik]

Robert, Hunt,

I know I would not win popularity contest here and dont care to .


The issue here is everyone has a preach and list and all the theory. But most doesnt know how to handle even as simple as hip.

As you know, one secret of alignemnet of the Chest is the handling of the hip. if the hip /butt doesnt handle properly, then forget about the waist and thus forget about the chest. all will default to brute force and stiff. that is just human anatomy and the TCMA IMA ancestors have long lay down the path.

But today, everyone think if they some terms or some kuen kuit they know it all. Well, too bad until one can make the kuen kuit alive it is zero. and Kuen Kuit cannot be read or qouate as a single seperate entiti.

The reason there exist so many version of INTEPRETATION of kuen kuit is because people just take a broken kuen kuit without the preceed kuit and the post kuit and starts to fantasy.

If one has all the kuen kuit complete. then the kuen kuit does one thing. And that is to help one clear up the direction.

See, that is 1000000 miles away from those todays to flamboyantly speak a single sentence of kuen kuit like super mantra but clueless on what it is.


Kuen kuit is the direction pointer kuen kuit is NOT an advise.





Back to the Hip....etc. I have keep writting in this forum on 4 WD/ 2WD , power generation platform. and When I ask others on their power generation platform what i get is some Ying Yang, Space, distance BS.

What I am looking for is similar to the 4WD and 2WD case. how many power transmission is there in your body where you have train? where is your power sources? Believe it or not, in reality, People in the Level of WXZ has a distributive power platform which even if one of the power transmission gear box jam. the others will adaptively by passed it. and NO one use a single power source.

These are what our modern days description of 6 directional power force vectors platform, or taiji's Peng Jing or WCK's Sickling .



VEry sad to see people are ignorance. and then act like know it all under the name of such and such GM which they dont even have first hand understanding on what is going on.



Finally,

Look at all these WCner who cant even handle their hip, one hug by the mma or BJJ on their hip/waste, that means games is over.

and even worst, how much power can they generate with those ignorance on hip handling? that just show they have Zero or even negative advange over any mma or BJJ because they practically is not train.



So, it is just very sad to knowing not on these hip....stuffs above, and that also indicate some's WCK has become some waving of arm without a power platfrom -- empty but look.


you young WCners, if you dont learn what I spill out above, go study mmA or BJJ with qualified instructor, that way, at least you are cover with your power platform. serious. I like WCK but dont like to screw young people in the name of WCK.


Just some thoughts.

[chusauli]

Terence wrote, "Let's clear this up. I was not requiring you to pay anything to spar with us. But, we are training at a YMCA and to get into the Y you either have to join or pay a visitors fee. I explained this to you. I don't get the money, the Y does. And it is only $10."

$10 should not be a barrier.

[JPinAZ]

VEry sad to see people are ignorance. and then act like know it all under the name of such and such GM which they dont even have first hand understanding on what is going on.

Finally,

Look at all these WCner who cant even handle their hip, one hug by the mma or BJJ on their hip/waste, that means games is over.

and even worst, how much power can they generate with those ignorance on hip handling? that just show they have Zero or even negative advange over any mma or BJJ because they practically is not train.


Who are all these people you speak of?

[Pacman]

Terence wrote, "Let's clear this up. I was not requiring you to pay anything to spar with us. But, we are training at a YMCA and to get into the Y you either have to join or pay a visitors fee. I explained this to you. I don't get the money, the Y does. And it is only $10."

$10 should not be a barrier.

that wasnt the barrier. the barrier was that even if the fee was paid, terrence wasn't going to be there. one of his sparring partners was supposed to be there that never returned yoshi's calls.

terrence, as usual, is trying to throw a red herring in the mix

[t_niehoff]

that wasnt the barrier. the barrier was that even if the fee was paid, terrence wasn't going to be there. one of his sparring partners was supposed to be there that never returned yoshi's calls.

terrence, as usual, is trying to throw a red herring in the mix

Dude, you don't know what you are talking about.

From the start I didn't like Clarence's tactics in trying to get his way. You don't get far with me acting as he did. He wanted a favor of me (he wanted to come see what we do and train with us). Well, with me you don't get favors from me by force or demands. So I told him to f##k off. And after I learned who Clarence was and who his group was, I didn't want anything to do with him since I think he is a nutter and not a serious martial artists in the least (certainly no one in his group is). But one of the guys in our group said he'd enjoy having some fun with him and asked me to invite him. So I did. I would have been there. I wouldn't have missed it. Then, after I relent and invite him, doing him a favor, he replies that he won't pay a mere $10 visitor fee to the Y. That settled it for me. It only confirmed that I was right about him in the first place.

Yes, he sent me his phone number asking me to call him (he never called me). So what? I don't want to talk to him. I have nothing to talk with him about. We have absolutely nothing in common.

Look, I take my training time seriously. I don't want to waste my time with idiots who aren't serious, who just want to play martial artist. The guys in our group are if anything even more serious and hard-core than I am about training. Robert has met them -- he knows what they're like. We have all made huge sacrifices of time, money, energy, relationships, serious injuries, etc. for training. It's that important to us. And for someone to balk at paying $10 only tells us he is a complete loser.

[Pacman]

well right now this behind the scenes stuff is just his word against yours

the only thing that is public record on this forum is how your open invitation to "come see" what you do got closed once someone took you up on it. then several restrictions came into play including learning muay thai for a few years before learning WC with you etc etc

whether clarence is a nutburger or not--i dont see how that makes a difference. the open invitation was not to for him to live with you but just see what you guys do.

if you are so serious about training and you dont want interruptions, then why would you give out the open invitation?

makes no sense

[Ultimatewingchun]

"....you (Victor) have very poor reasoning skills....As I said, the validity of my views on training doesn't rely or depend on my skills." (Terence Niehoff)
...........................................

***BUT OF COURSE the validity of your views depends upon the level of your WING CHUN skills. Since you tell us that WCK is your primary art, and you constantly tell us that this and that about wing chun doesn't work under fire against skilled, resisting opponents (virtually everything about the art doesn't work, according to many of your posts)...

IT'S THEREFORE COMPLETELY REASONABLE to want to see just how much wing chun knowledge and skills you actually have!

Maybe what you bring to the table when you spar with these mma and mt guys you claim to spar with isn't very good?! Maybe there's not much wing chun coming to the table in the first place?! How do we know that?

WE DON'T.

But what we do know is that you have appointed yourself the wing chun forum policeman who's now the authority (along with 2 or 3 other people, in your mind)....about what's good, functional wing chun, and what is not.

BUT YOU, TERENCE NIEHOFF, NEED TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF THIS!

Your attempts to set yourself in such a position is not going to get a free ride. You have to earn it.

SHOW US THE VIDS..........or shut up.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by chusauli
Terence wrote, "Let's clear this up. I was not requiring you to pay anything to spar with us. But, we are training at a YMCA and to get into the Y you either have to join or pay a visitors fee. I explained this to you. I don't get the money, the Y does. And it is only $10."

$10 should not be a barrier.
.................................

AND THIS RESPONSE BY PACMAN:

"that wasnt the barrier. the barrier was that even if the fee was paid, terrence wasn't going to be there. one of his sparring partners was supposed to be there that never returned yoshi's calls.

terrence, as usual, is trying to throw a red herring in the mix."
..................................

***WOW, this is really interesting! Is this what really happened with Yoshi?

If so, Terence has been exposed as a total B.S. artist.

[Ultimatewingchun]

well right now this behind the scenes stuff is just his word against yours

the only thing that is public record on this forum is how your open invitation to "come see" what you do got closed once someone took you up on it. then several restrictions came into play including learning muay thai for a few years before learning WC with you etc etc

whether clarence is a nutburger or not--i dont see how that makes a difference. the open invitation was not to for him to live with you but just see what you guys do.

if you are so serious about training and you dont want interruptions, then why would you give out the open invitation?

makes no sense
............................

***AND THIS PUTS ALL THE ISSUES IN PERSPECTIVE. Something is not right in Terence town.

[anerlich]

the validity of my views on training doesn't rely or depend on my skills

Perhaps, but if you claim to train as hard for as long as you claim to have employing those methods, and made all those sacrifices (*yawn*, get over yourself), and you still suck skill-wise, then the methods you advocate in saturation bombing fashion must be suspect.

People are basically requesting proof that you don't suck skill-wise, which so far you've been unwilling and are perhaps unable to provide. So your credibility remains open to challenge.

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay Chusali my point is this. YGKYM is just as pacman and others say it is. If you do it differently in your lineage than thats okay. But don't come up with quasi reasons on why other lineages are wrong for not practicing the YGKYM the way you do...Check out the below sifu:



Leung Dai-Chiu sifu explained that Yuen Kay-San Wing Chun Kuen uses the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma ("Yee" Shaped Groin Clamping Horse). In this, the horse clamps, the chest is hollowed, the stomach relaxed in, and the shoulders dropped. When a hand goes out, the elbow protects the chest. Each elbow can be used like half a hand, so that together, a student can employ three hands at once. The wrist is very important in the transmission of power. The gall bladder is important as the source of courage. These two allow Yuen Kay-San Wing Chun Kuen to use an opponent's own strength against him with both soft and hard.



Yoshi,

You have a long list...but again, my way is based on functionality. My motto is, "Let function rule over form" and "Let application be your guide". You already know the answers to your lists above, but that does not mean I agree with it for myself, nor my students and grandstudents. The body structure I advocate does not agree to what is popular or even what is traditionally or commonly taught...

Anyway, Bak Mei, Ba Gua, Sae Ying, and Bruce Lee have nothing to do with my WCK. I already told the WCK world in articles and publications about my chest up, not sunken, and why. Throughout my training, I have tested this way out for myself. Later on teaching, I gave it a testing process, producing certain results, and documented it. There are equal parallels to my method in other arts. My students and grandstudents have also proven it in competition in MMA and full contact matches as a method of issuing power and maintaining pressure on the opponent.

If something is practical and flies in the face of what is popular, maybe you should think - what is the value of this to me? Why would I want to be out in the world to face ridicule, scorn, contempt, and generally TCMA badmouthing if I wasn't confident of my findings? And since I am no nut or megalomaniac, and generally an approachable and reasonable guy - why not just try it, then let me know your findings?

[Yoshiyahu]

Terrence in a post when I first came on this forum you had an open invitiation for someone to train with you free of charge. The didn't need money to come train with you. Now seeing that your group is a freelance group and not a registered school why would I come and pay you. You wrote on the forum that your group is free of charge. You made no mention of $10 fee to any out towners who might visit the STL. At first I didn't come to you with demands or even force. I can't force you do anything just talk Shiiish. But anyway You state several places that your two diversions were a means to distract me of disinfranchise me from desiring to train with you. At first I really did want to train with you guys. I looked forward to hard conditioning and fellowship with other chunners in my area who didn't know about. Then with your constant Bull Sh!t and crap you talked I just wanted to spar you. I told you win, lose or draw I would still speak highly of you. In fact its not even the idea of beating you, to bad mouth you on the forum. In most of my post I defend you and some of your view points simply because your a St.louis Chunner like me. If we were to fight I would still do the same no matter the out come.


Is it about the $10. Well yea thats part of it. Why pay $10 to a group that is suppose to be free. I got an open invititation to meet with a MMA group for free and indiviual classes for $10. Why not go there an train. It would be more benefical to test out my WC on other skilled fighters outside of my style. Also my first complaint was you made a requirement of me becoming a Muay Thai Student for two years before I could meet your group. Are you a MT fighter or WC fighter? If I was interested in MT I would be on MT threads. After I ridculed you on that tip for a month then you said I could come an meet some guy who was new to your group for a $10 fee at the YMCA. What would have happen if I said I had a YMCA membership. I waste my gas driving to some far our YMCA where this guy is suppose to be an he probably wouldnt be there. Besides I gave you my number and name an got no call. I asked over and over again. But no call.

So I said forget it meet me at Forest Park or something we can spar there. Forget all the Crap. lets meet. You got my number but you yourself never called.
Your open invitation is crap. Its only open to those people who will never come to STL. Ha Ha.


Reasons I know we will never meet:

Terence Said:
Look, I take my training time seriously. I don't want to waste my time with idiots who aren't serious, who just want to play martial artist.

I am waste of his time. I am not serious enough. He also stated I tried to force or demand that he train with me. I did no such thing. Maybe by ridiculing him he sees that as a force. But i merely spoke my gripe. Its interesting some quasi sifu who is so skilled in pressure point strikes got to meet Revered Terrence Niehoff and he had a death match fight with Terrence that he lost. Terrence whooped him good and showed that his Dim Mak pressure points strike had no effect. Maybe I should did what that guy done. Maybe I should study dim mak for two years and then challenge Niehoff maybe then he will show how weak my WC is. Ha ha. How is it this Fantasy Sifu with his ability to knock people out with a wave of his hand Got Terrences time but I didn't?

Terrence Says:
The fact that you p1ssed and moaned about how you wanted to see how we trained, that you wanted to come sapr with us, and so on, and that I relented -- since I originally didn't want anything to do with you or your crazy, quasi-cult false YKS WCK group that I know all too well.


Anyway above this is the Reason why he says he advoids me. But if this is the case why not teach me what real WC is. I was curious at first to what I might be missing thats why I reached out to you to see if there is more. To see if your group could mold me into a better fighter looking at reality instead of fantasy. But you state all too often that WC is not a functional martial art. An your group uses WC functionally because its reality based and you fight with it. I wanted that for myself others who think similiar to me about fighting. I want to increase my fighting skills. By fighting others. But you friend refused me. It gets my goat when I hear you saying crap about others coming to your group so you can show them real WC when I asked to feel it for myself. I could respect it if you told me that I only had to watch because you felt i was too weak. Atleast I could see what you do an judge rather or not it was a group I am willing to commit too. You talk about how your groups trains hard and fights hard an the weak can not hang. Well Let me feel it for myself. The worst thing I can say is "Terrence beat my Arse." and "Those guys are too tough I aint going back." But I don't get that. Wow.

Terrence says:
And after I learned who Clarence was and who his group was, I didn't want anything to do with him since I think he is a nutter and not a serious martial artists in the least (certainly no one in his group is).


Well show me what real Martial Arts is. Teach me the errors of my ways. O but its clear I will never meet your group. your Just mere talk. I don't care anymore. I gave up a long time ago. I met others who fight with their art. An I train with them now. So it don't really matter to me. I am a nutter so I am not worth his time. I am a fantasy base Wing Chun fighter so I don't deserved to learn from realistic fighters. I don't deserved to get my fantasy crush so I can tell everyone on forum how real Terrence Fighting skills are. An how his Reality is supeiror to my Fantasy. Those of my YKS group are not worthy of Terrence Niehoff status so by default I am not worthy of his time and energy. I get it. I understand Terrence what your saying. Thats why your training partner never called or you didnt call. As for my objection to $10 thing you will notice I gave you my number after that. I waited three weeks an got no call. Then i said "forget about it". My curiosity was gone. Then complained about the $10 thing. I didnt even know which YMCA you were at or what day you trained. I grew tired of the cat and mouse games. If you asked someone to show a technique, form, or skill and they give you a bunch of excuses than that means their full of crap and all talk.


Terrence Said
But one of the guys in our group said he'd enjoy having some fun with him and asked me to invite him. So I did. I would have been there. I wouldn't have missed it. Then, after I relent and invite him, doing him a favor, he replies that he won't pay a mere $10 visitor fee to the Y. That settled it for me. It only confirmed that I was right about him in the first place.



What YMCA do you guys meet at. What would you do if I have a memebership there? Will you allow me to train then? I asking now incase i get some other excuse. anyway...coming back down off my high horse. Since T is a WChunner in StL i have nothing but respect for him. My Gripe is this issue. Nothing more. I really respect Terrences comments on various subjects. I think he has alot of wisdom even if we disagree on sideline issues. In reality I would love to meet and train peacefully with Terrence. I have no Grudge or Discontent for T. But I wanted to state the facts since someone from the Forum who was talking to Terrence about this issue asked me a question privately and brought out in the open in several threads. As for Terrence if you ever in st.louis. I humby asked you to request Terrences time and train with him. If your an out towner and he trains with you. Then I will have to relent on my accusations and profess that Terrence doesn't train with WC people here in St.louis. But thats okay.

Hey Terrence are any of your WC people from Augustine Fong's lineage. Do they train on Fifth Street in St.Charles? There is a school in St.Charles I wonder if I met any of your fighters?



Dude, you don't know what you are talking about.

From the start I didn't like Clarence's tactics in trying to get his way. You don't get far with me acting as he did. He wanted a favor of me (he wanted to come see what we do and train with us). Well, with me you don't get favors from me by force or demands. So I told him to f##k off. And after I learned who Clarence was and who his group was, I didn't want anything to do with him since I think he is a nutter and not a serious martial artists in the least (certainly no one in his group is). But one of the guys in our group said he'd enjoy having some fun with him and asked me to invite him. So I did. I would have been there. I wouldn't have missed it. Then, after I relent and invite him, doing him a favor, he replies that he won't pay a mere $10 visitor fee to the Y. That settled it for me. It only confirmed that I was right about him in the first place.

Yes, he sent me his phone number asking me to call him (he never called me). So what? I don't want to talk to him. I have nothing to talk with him about. We have absolutely nothing in common.

Look, I take my training time seriously. I don't want to waste my time with idiots who aren't serious, who just want to play martial artist. The guys in our group are if anything even more serious and hard-core than I am about training. Robert has met them -- he knows what they're like. We have all made huge sacrifices of time, money, energy, relationships, serious injuries, etc. for training. It's that important to us. And for someone to balk at paying $10 only tells us he is a complete loser.

[Pacman]

thats great that you have developed your own style of WC. i was not arguing which was better or worse.

originally, the disagreement was terrence was telling me how SN WC does the YGKYM.

Like the 12 san sik, he thinks he knows what he is talking about in terms of SN WC

Obviously not.

and by your comments as terrence's sifu, it is obvious he misunderstood some things about SN WC



Yoshi,

You have a long list...but again, my way is based on functionality. My motto is, "Let function rule over form" and "Let application be your guide". You already know the answers to your lists above, but that does not mean I agree with it for myself, nor my students and grandstudents. The body structure I advocate does not agree to what is popular or even what is traditionally or commonly taught...

Anyway, Bak Mei, Ba Gua, Sae Ying, and Bruce Lee have nothing to do with my WCK. I already told the WCK world in articles and publications about my chest up, not sunken, and why. Throughout my training, I have tested this way out for myself. Later on teaching, I gave it a testing process, producing certain results, and documented it. There are equal parallels to my method in other arts. My students and grandstudents have also proven it in competition in MMA and full contact matches as a method of issuing power and maintaining pressure on the opponent.

If something is practical and flies in the face of what is popular, maybe you should think - what is the value of this to me? Why would I want to be out in the world to face ridicule, scorn, contempt, and generally TCMA badmouthing if I wasn't confident of my findings? And since I am no nut or megalomaniac, and generally an approachable and reasonable guy - why not just try it, then let me know your findings?

[Yoshiyahu]

Well said...but again if you have limited YKS training you have limited Knowledge there as well...go figure...your beating a dead horse mate give it rest...ha ha...Any way I look forward to hearing what the bloke says to you!



Dude, you don't know what you are talking about.

From the start I didn't like Clarence's tactics in trying to get his way. You don't get far with me acting as he did. He wanted a favor of me (he wanted to come see what we do and train with us). Well, with me you don't get favors from me by force or demands. So I told him to f##k off. And after I learned who Clarence was and who his group was, I didn't want anything to do with him since I think he is a nutter and not a serious martial artists in the least (certainly no one in his group is). But one of the guys in our group said he'd enjoy having some fun with him and asked me to invite him. So I did. I would have been there. I wouldn't have missed it. Then, after I relent and invite him, doing him a favor, he replies that he won't pay a mere $10 visitor fee to the Y. That settled it for me. It only confirmed that I was right about him in the first place.

Yes, he sent me his phone number asking me to call him (he never called me). So what? I don't want to talk to him. I have nothing to talk with him about. We have absolutely nothing in common.

Look, I take my training time seriously. I don't want to waste my time with idiots who aren't serious, who just want to play martial artist. The guys in our group are if anything even more serious and hard-core than I am about training. Robert has met them -- he knows what they're like. We have all made huge sacrifices of time, money, energy, relationships, serious injuries, etc. for training. It's that important to us. And for someone to balk at paying $10 only tells us he is a complete loser.


thats great that you have developed your own style of WC. i was not arguing which was better or worse.

originally, the disagreement was terrence was telling me how SN WC does the YGKYM.

Like the 12 san sik, he thinks he knows what he is talking about in terms of SN WC

Obviously not.

and by your comments as terrence's sifu, it is obvious he misunderstood some things about SN WC

[ittokaos]

WOW. I missed a lot. Why is it that you chunners feel the need to have an good discussion and then for no reason start a flame war? I will never understand that.

ok. the way that one generates power from the chest and back is by using the muscles to bend that particular bow. Dr. Yang has a book on White Crane that explains it better than I but basically it says that the back/chest is one of the upper torso bows and the spine is the other. Now in order to actually hunch, both bows are used(the back is pushed out and the spine is bent) and yes that will cause your alignment to be off but the result will be a powerful strike.

Now, if one were to use only the chest/back bow to strike one would be able to use "hunching" all the while keeping the spine straight. However, one would have to be able to effectively control both bows independantly or else this will be impossible.

To use the bow one would need to be in control of their shoulders then the rest should come naturally. Keep your spine as straight as possible(up against a wall if need be) and try to squeeze your shoulders together in front of your chest. If you can do this you will notice that this hollows your chest and your back is being pushed back. This is known as using your back to strike. Now be sure not to curl the spine at all. Next do the same type of squeezing but now the shoulders are squeezing behind you. If you can do this your chest should now be open but your back hollowed. This is known as using your chest to strike.

In the Hakka styles we do hunch(to add sinking power) but momentarily and only to strike. After the strike is completed we revert back to our neutral positon or line up the next attack. We dont make a habit of hunching because that would put us in a fixed position and would be detrimental to the flow of fighting. Kind of like how the bong sao never stays, it is used and then instantly switched to another technique. However, as can be seen be what I previously typed, hollowing the chest can be done(without hunching) and should be done as a means of defense.

as far as Bruce Lee goes, he is know to do SPM as well as boxing. Both have hunching however the latter(due to queensbury rules) is always hunched whereas the former only hunches to strike. And as Mr. Chu pointed out, hunching leads to a hunched back.:eek:

[Yoshiyahu]

WOW. I missed a lot. Why is it that you chunners feel the need to have an good discussion and then for no reason start a flame war? I will never understand that.


I don't know who struck first mate. But I am just in a war doing my best to destroy the enemy. When a bloke hits us we hit them right back hard. Annilation and Retalitation is a must.

[anerlich]

I don't know who struck first mate. But I am just in a war doing my best to destroy the enemy. When a bloke hits us we hit them right back hard. Annilation and Retalitation is a must.

If you want to destroy your enemy, posting smack on a forum is hardly going to cut it.


Annilation and Retalitation

:rolleyes: In my browser, there is spellcheck on this forum, so there is no excuse for gross illiteracy such as this.

[Yoshiyahu]

If you want to destroy your enemy, posting smack on a forum is hardly going to cut it.



:rolleyes: In my browser, there is spellcheck on this forum, so there is no excuse for gross illiteracy such as this.

ha ha your so right. Next time you mispell a word. I am going to point that out to you buddy.

As for destroying my enemies. Come on man Did you read the context of my funny statement...I was being comical you do know that my friend?

wow what a Meshugga.

[anerlich]

Did you read the context of my funny statement

Sorry.

You have no talent for humour, so it's hard to tell when you're trying to be funny.

[Yoshiyahu]

Sorry.

You have no talent for humour, so it's hard to tell when you're trying to be funny.

Oh my bad. I learn how to be humorus on Uranus (Ur-anus). But I back on earth now trying to reinterate with the common vernacular. But anyway what the bloke us up anerlich.

[chusauli]

And as Mr. Chu pointed out, hunching leads to a hunched back.:eek:

Your body will morph to its jobs, just as you are what you eat. :)

This is probably why the YKS people study Sun Hei Gwai Yuen Hei Gung...

[Hendrik]

Your body will morph to its jobs, just as you are what you eat. :)

This is probably why the YKS people study Sun Hei Gwai Yuen Hei Gung...


To be real honest but politically not correct, it doesnt make sense to train in a long term tear/wear and damaging way then in the same time training some band aids.





There is a famous classical case with WXZ the founder of Yee Chuan, one of his senior student dont buy Wang's request on one must in coorporate Yang Shen or cultivating the health with the martial training.

Wang predicted his student will have a ill health at old age. and reality prove Wang is right at his student's old age.


Also late Ma Li-Dang has made a statement on his peer who could beat others left and right easily, however, after middle age, these peer one by one is having ill health. Thus, one needs to know, a balance TCMA is an MA which taken care of both the martial needs and health.

As you know, I am relying on my TCMA IMA for my health. So, well, I would not believe in it decades ago, but now it is a total different story and I actually find this type of train makes me even more energetic and agile then when I was young.




A few days ago, I was asking all the questions on hip....etc. Well, human is human. until one got the basic proper, there always a compremise.....


Finally, as you know,
I intended to bring up the Emei 12 zhuang connection of SLT is so that WCner has a path to get into cultivating of health path of SLT. We all grow older everyday. So, that path of knowledge needs to be known to all to have a healthy senior aging living.

Sure, the Jin or power issuing part is interesting. But the cultivating health part is the one we are going to use and even rely on daily until we gone from this world.

[chusauli]

Personally, I do not think Sun Hei Gwai Yuen will have any good effect, as the majority of YKS WCK practitioners also practice that exercise hunchbacked!

For you not in the medical industry, here are some references for you:

http://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article1437.html

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00423

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/kyphosis/DS00681

I again, submit this to the martial world - if your art does not have the 3 components of power producing, good health benefit, and martially sound - is it worthwhile to practice and ignore your health for? :confused:

[Phil Redmond]

Personally, I do not think Sun Hei Gwai Yuen will have any good effect, as the majority of YKS WCK practitioners also practice that exercise hunchbacked!

For you not in the medical industry, here are some references for you:

http://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article1437.html

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00423

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/kyphosis/DS00681

I again, submit this to the martial world - if your art does not have the 3 components of power producing, good health benefit, and martially sound - is it worthwhile to practice and ignore your health for? :confused:
It's good to hear a martial artist with an understanding of anatomy write what you wrote. I've been telling my Bak Mei, Lung Ying, and Juk Lum friends for years that the "hunch back" thing was bad for the spine and the internal organs. But some people will do everything their style dictates without proper research on their own.

[Hendrik]

It's good to hear a martial artist with an understanding of anatomy write what you wrote. I've been telling my Bak Mei, Lung Ying, and Juk Lum friends for years that the "hunch back" thing was bad for the spine and the internal organs. But some people will do everything their style dictates without proper research on their own.


IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHO,



WCK practice in properly got the following issues which are weakening or damaging health in long run and also degrade martial ability.


To be very specific,


1, lock hip and tuck in tail bone in YJKYM.

This is a mis understanding of loose hip and spine alignment.

The result from the mis-practice are

a, hip join, waist , and tight area is a big area, this cause poor blood circulation in the body and weaken the kidney.

b, Un able to properly handling the whole body and generate power with ease. Rooting is impossible.




2, lock/tense shoulder due to forcing elbow toward center line.

This is a mis understanding of sinking elbow and PROJECT FORCE VECTOR into the center line.

PROJECT FORCE VECTOR doesnt means PHYSICALLY FORCE IT; this type of practice DOESNT PROJECT FORCE VECTOR AT ALL but mistaken thinking that feeling of tensing means PROPER. THAT IS false security.

The result of this mis practice are


a, the mis handling of shoulder and elbow causing breathing to get stuck in the chest area causing difficult of breathing and un easy. Long term resolve into impatient emotional due to the tight chest, lung and heart weakness.

b, the two arms suppose to become two giants snakes which is strong and agile. tight up the shoulder and forcing the elbow KILL the two snakes.



3, un proper spine alignement due to the Lock Hip and hunch back.

This is an ignorance on what a human body can and must not do.


a, this mis handling of spine mis a lign the person's body, mind, and emotion. practically carry one's mind, body, emotion into a narrow and lock up state where easy angry, blood pressure issue.....lung, heart, liver, kidney issues are not supprise.


b, Contradiction to the spine is cultivate to become a living DRAGON. the spine is now train into a DEAD WOOD which cant support a physical body to its full potential. thus, rooting and fajing is out of the question.

THE shao lin Bone marrow washing is to turn the DEAD WOOD alive via washing the bone marrow. this practice kill the Dragon.




So, to every WCNER, if you does you SLT/YJKyM that way, you need to know the consequence.

In fact, the above practice have Violating the requirement of all TCMA IMA basic requirements and good WCK doesnt violate these, and thus, if you want to have a proper practice, DO make use of the IMA requirement on body and practice as a reference. DO NOT DO anything without a good reason. The TCMA IMA has thousands of year of experience to support it. No need to go with some Trial and ERRO using yourself as a guine pig.



Particularly, if you are female, check ,can you loosen your toes and hip area while at YJKYM. Loosen toes up to the back of the head is a must for every one who practice SLT.


Just some thoughts.

[Pacman]

It's good to hear a martial artist with an understanding of anatomy write what you wrote. I've been telling my Bak Mei, Lung Ying, and Juk Lum friends for years that the "hunch back" thing was bad for the spine and the internal organs. But some people will do everything their style dictates without proper research on their own.

i have my reservations about the info presented by robert

after all, this is common in tai chi and ba gua as well. i wouldnt be surprised to find it in xing yi too.

all these arts based on taoist philosophies ...and a major goal of taoists is longevity

[ittokaos]

It's good to hear a martial artist with an understanding of anatomy write what you wrote. I've been telling my Bak Mei, Lung Ying, and Juk Lum friends for years that the "hunch back" thing was bad for the spine and the internal organs. But some people will do everything their style dictates without proper research on their own.

Agreed. However, the style itself never actually dictated it. From what I could gather, the teacher never hunched but due to the way the back is held in order to hollow the chest, it can look that way. The student then assumed that was the way it was and began teaching it as such. My sifu, however, was constantly telling me to keep my spine straight before I finally got it. Also, the majority of Hakka practitioners are so use to moving in the hunched fashion, they are ultimately depriving themselves of the full power(as well as other powers) of their styles. The dragon guys are the worst(that I have seen) at this because their style leans forward but it bends at the hip(thus keeping a straight line from the rear leg to the head) and not the back(which would constipate the power).

Also, the hunched power(as I was taught to use it) is at it's best when used with a wave of the spine and thus massages the internal organs due to the wave and proper use of the breath(we call it shrimping but it's a secret so keep it between us;)). And must also be used in conjunction with the chest power(which was mentioned earlier) otherwise it will only slow you down.:p

[ittokaos]

It's good to hear a martial artist with an understanding of anatomy write what you wrote. I've been telling my Bak Mei, Lung Ying, and Juk Lum friends for years that the "hunch back" thing was bad for the spine and the internal organs. But some people will do everything their style dictates without proper research on their own.

Agreed. However, the style itself never actually dictated it. From what I could gather, the teacher never hunched but due to the way the back is held in order to hollow the chest, it can look that way. The student then assumed that was the way it was and began teaching it as such. My sifu, however, was constantly telling me to keep my spine straight before I finally got it. Also, the majority of Hakka practitioners are so use to moving in the hunched fashion, they are ultimately depriving themselves of the full power(as well as other powers) of their styles. The dragon guys are the worst(that I have seen) at this because their style leans forward but it bends at the hip(thus keeping a straight line from the rear leg to the head) and not the back(which would constipate the power).

Also, the hunched power(as I was taught to use it) is at it's best when used with a wave of the spine and thus massages the internal organs due to the wave and proper use of the breath(we call it shrimping but it's a secret so keep it between us;)). And must also be used in conjunction with the chest power(which was mentioned earlier) otherwise it will only slow you down.:p

[chusauli]

i have my reservations about the info presented by robert

after all, this is common in tai chi and ba gua as well. i wouldnt be surprised to find it in xing yi too.

all these arts based on taoist philosophies ...and a major goal of taoists is longevity

Pacman,

I think you have to do some investigation in the so-called internal arts and realize that an art may be based on Daoist philosophies, but many are not really practiced in a Daoist way that promotes longevity.

Tai Ji was created by Chen Wang Ting, a retired Ming general, not a Daoist. Look at Chen and orthodox Yang, Wu, Sun and see they do not hunch their backs...

Xing Yi originally from the Dai family...and other creation myths. Marshall Yue Fei's theses are often considered the background and they have a strong medicine flavor to it...but I do not think "embracing the chest" and "round the back" means to "hunch the back"...

Ba Gua's origins are shrouded in mystery, but we do know Dong Hai chuan was the first to introduce it. It may be derived from Daoist sources, but Dong really taught one student - Yin Fu the complete system as was handed to him. The rest were taught to combine the 8 palms with their respective background, which led to a myriad of subsystems, many hunched, and others not so hunched backed.

Just because these arts do it, should WCK do the hunchback as well? Your logic is flawed...WCK has nothing to do with Tai Ji, Xing Yi or Ba Gua.

[chusauli]

Agreed. However, the style itself never actually dictated it. From what I could gather, the teacher never hunched but due to the way the back is held in order to hollow the chest, it can look that way. The student then assumed that was the way it was and began teaching it as such. My sifu, however, was constantly telling me to keep my spine straight before I finally got it. Also, the majority of Hakka practitioners are so use to moving in the hunched fashion, they are ultimately depriving themselves of the full power(as well as other powers) of their styles. The dragon guys are the worst(that I have seen) at this because their style leans forward but it bends at the hip(thus keeping a straight line from the rear leg to the head) and not the back(which would constipate the power).

Also, the hunched power(as I was taught to use it) is at it's best when used with a wave of the spine and thus massages the internal organs due to the wave and proper use of the breath(we call it shrimping but it's a secret so keep it between us;)). And must also be used in conjunction with the chest power(which was mentioned earlier) otherwise it will only slow you down.:p

Wave of the spine is absolutely correct!

The reason so many hunch over is they feel they can hold the dantian with the pelvic tilt and hunching over - yet they cannot reach their full potential because they don't know how to release it as you describe above! It is a secret!

[Hendrik]

i have my reservations about the info presented by robert

after all, this is common in tai chi and ba gua as well. i wouldnt be surprised to find it in xing yi too.

all these arts based on taoist philosophies ...and a major goal of taoists is longevity



Common to tai chi and ba gua? Taoist philosophies... taoists .... huh?

For anyone who really know the IMA the hunch back is a total screw up. and BIggest NO NO.

Arguing in this direction with your own interpretation is just showing you dont know what you are talking about.


The bottom line of Taoism and IMA is Tao Mimic Nature.
Hunch Back is not nature.

So, please dont give me these BS alabi conveniently which will mislead everyone.

[Hendrik]

Pacman,

I think you have to do some investigation in the so-called internal arts and realize that an art may be based on Daoist philosophies, but many are not really practiced in a Daoist way that promotes longevity.

Tai Ji was created by Chen Wang Ting, a retired Ming general, not a Daoist. Look at Chen and orthodox Yang, Wu, Sun and see they do not hunch their backs...

Xing Yi originally from the Dai family...and other creation myths. Marshall Yue Fei's theses are often considered the background and they have a strong medicine flavor to it...but I do not think "embracing the chest" and "round the back" means to "hunch the back"...

Ba Gua's origins are shrouded in mystery, but we do know Dong Hai chuan was the first to introduce it. It may be derived from Daoist sources, but Dong really taught one student - Yin Fu the complete system as was handed to him. The rest were taught to combine the 8 palms with their respective background, which led to a myriad of subsystems, many hunched, and others not so hunched backed.

Just because these arts do it, should WCK do the hunchback as well? Your logic is flawed...WCK has nothing to do with Tai Ji, Xing Yi or Ba Gua.



Robert,

This discussion is totally screw up.

Why? because people are using their own intepreation without knowing what is it for IMA and How Daoist teaching in real life.


NOne of these people arguing here will get to the basic state of the Zhen Qi move up to the head via the spine with the hunch back stuffs.

Forget about it, it is a biggest misleading and it doesnt work.


Anyone dont believe me, go a head make my day and show me which or WHO in this modern day WCK domain has attain the BASIC Kung Fu of cycling the Zhen Qi up via hunch back?


I know what I am said is not politically correct but for sake of WCner, some ignorance people need to stop BS and mislead others.


I post things here asertively because I have reasearched in this path and also have different IMA sifus how teaches me.

[chusauli]

It's good to hear a martial artist with an understanding of anatomy write what you wrote. I've been telling my Bak Mei, Lung Ying, and Juk Lum friends for years that the "hunch back" thing was bad for the spine and the internal organs. But some people will do everything their style dictates without proper research on their own.

Thanks Phil!

Many of these systems were created in times of rebellion to get power right away and use very quickly - so in times of peace, people would have to learn supplemental training or noi gung to heal themselves (if they survived). Many times these longevity practices were taught last or withheld from the master to keep a lineage pure (i.e. all the other practitioners died or unable to practice due to health problems while you imparted the real deal to your successors). Often medical teachings were part of the original art, but not passed on to the illiterate or uneducated. There is also a practice of "taking back the martial arts" whereby a Sifu or successor would injure the tendons and sinew of a renegade practitioner and render them unable to practice.

It was difficult to heal orthopedic injuries at one time - one literally starved to death as a beggar. Many families of Chinese medicine traumatology and orthopedics were very famous and had specific cures and formulas. For example, the Luo family knew how to reinstate broken bones and ligaments at a time when surgery was rare in China.

Many people today do not study deeply and do not know their complete training curriculum or recognize their training as incomplete to have these imbedded weaknesses and tendencies.

The ones who have structurally sound, health enhancing, and martial content will be the ones to survive.

[Yoshiyahu]

Chausauli what does "round the back" mean?

As for hunched back. I think Hunched is actually an over exageration on what is being done. The chest is slighly curled. As it would be when your sitting in a seat and your arms are in front of you. Actually the way the Curl was taught to me was natural. Not something you forced. But something that developed over time.



Thanks Phil!

Many of these systems were created in times of rebellion to get power right away and use very quickly - so in times of peace, people would have to learn supplemental training or noi gung to heal themselves (if they survived). Many times these longevity practices were taught last or withheld from the master to keep a lineage pure (i.e. all the other practitioners died or unable to practice due to health problems while you imparted the real deal to your successors). Often medical teachings were part of the original art, but not passed on to the illiterate or uneducated. There is also a practice of "taking back the martial arts" whereby a Sifu or successor would injure the tendons and sinew of a renegade practitioner and render them unable to practice.

It was difficult to heal orthopedic injuries at one time - one literally starved to death as a beggar. Many families of Chinese medicine traumatology and orthopedics were very famous and had specific cures and formulas. For example, the Luo family knew how to reinstate broken bones and ligaments at a time when surgery was rare in China.

Many people today do not study deeply and do not know their complete training curriculum or recognize their training as incomplete to have these imbedded weaknesses and tendencies.

The ones who have structurally sound, health enhancing, and martial content will be the ones to survive.

[chusauli]

Chausauli what does "round the back" mean?

As for hunched back. I think Hunched is actually an over exageration on what is being done. The chest is slighly curled. As it would be when your sitting in a seat and your arms are in front of you. Actually the way the Curl was taught to me was natural. Not something you forced. But something that developed over time.

You say overexaggeration, but I say do it for another 20-30 years and you'll look up like this (see picture):

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00423

Who taught you? They should know...

In Chinese we say "Han Xiong Ba Bei" - This may help you:

http://taijiquan.quanxinquanyi.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45:jumin-on-han-xiong-ba-bei&catid=1:aktuelle-nachrichten&Itemid=29

and:

http://fustyle.org/yu2.htm

But then, that's Tai Ji...

[Phil Redmond]

WOW. I missed a lot. Why is it that you chunners feel the need to have an good discussion and then for no reason start a flame war? I will never understand that.. . . .
I've been doing WC for longer than many here have been alive and I still don't understand WChunners and flame wars. Too many WC people think that if someone else's WC doesn't look like theirs it's not right. So they slam other WC people.
The one that gets me is If you fight and win you didn't do it right. . .:confused:

[Phil Redmond]

i have my reservations about the info presented by robert

after all, this is common in tai chi and ba gua as well. i wouldnt be surprised to find it in xing yi too.

all these arts based on taoist philosophies ...and a major goal of taoists is longevity
Modern science, physiology, kinesiology, etc., have disproven many "ancient" concepts. Taoists believed that by performing certain sexual acts you could attain immortality. ;)

[Pacman]

Pacman,

I think you have to do some investigation in the so-called internal arts and realize that an art may be based on Daoist philosophies, but many are not really practiced in a Daoist way that promotes longevity.

Tai Ji was created by Chen Wang Ting, a retired Ming general, not a Daoist. Look at Chen and orthodox Yang, Wu, Sun and see they do not hunch their backs...

Xing Yi originally from the Dai family...and other creation myths. Marshall Yue Fei's theses are often considered the background and they have a strong medicine flavor to it...but I do not think "embracing the chest" and "round the back" means to "hunch the back"...

Ba Gua's origins are shrouded in mystery, but we do know Dong Hai chuan was the first to introduce it. It may be derived from Daoist sources, but Dong really taught one student - Yin Fu the complete system as was handed to him. The rest were taught to combine the 8 palms with their respective background, which led to a myriad of subsystems, many hunched, and others not so hunched backed.

Just because these arts do it, should WCK do the hunchback as well? Your logic is flawed...WCK has nothing to do with Tai Ji, Xing Yi or Ba Gua.

to me hunch back means to round the back, hollow the chest, etc. perhaps we are disagreeing on semantics

but i do disagree with your last statement regarding wing chun having nothing to do with the other arts. WC's history is shrouded too. regardless of the "official" history, the WC i learned has more in common with tai chi and xing yi than shaolin

[Pacman]

Modern science, physiology, kinesiology, etc., have disproven many "ancient" concepts. Taoists believed that by performing certain sexual acts you could attain immortality. ;)

for the sake of this argument, the actual validity of ancient daoists beliefs and TCM is inconsequential

robert was making an argument based on TCM. my point was that these other arts adopt the same posture and that these other arts are based on philosophies (based on TCM) aimed at longevity

so i was basically saying that perhaps robert could double check his TCM references...because i have more faith in tai chi for health than robert chu for health no offense

[chusauli]

Pacman,

Perhaps semantics, perhaps not. You can always check.

What makes you feel you have more in common with Tai Ji and Xing Yi, rather than Shaolin? Its a good discussion. WCK, IMO, is not related to Shaolin, nor uses Shaolin mechanics (however the pole does), although many thnk it comes from Shaolin...

If you do Han Xiong Ba Bei correctly, then all is in accord with Daoist principles. If you practice exaggerated hunchback system, using local shoulder power and nothing from Kua and proper alignment, you run the risk of what I have said about organs being in misalignment and perverse Qi in TCM terms.

Tai Ji Quan is a great practice, done correctly, and certainly better for health than robert chu. :)

A good friend of mine did a study in graduate school on Tai Ji Quan and found that cardiovascularly, Tai Ji did little for health, and in studies on people over 50 that had practiced for over 10 years, showed it did not produce great athletic ability (jumping, strength, etc.), little cardio on the step test for VO2, little in strength, and when measured with regards to BMI, showed much in overweight and obesity, (in that group) and little change in terms of Blood pressure, cholesterol and blood sugar. If the study were published it might eradicate the myth of Tai Ji for health.

Overall walking and good diet were better than Tai Ji Quan...but Tai Quan is an interesting practice and a wonderful cultural art. And perhaps because it is "healthy", will lead people into do other healthy things like walking and good diet.

[Hendrik]

Robert,


All the Taiji ,...etc ideas are great.

However, until on can present how to loosen one's hip/waist area as you know. ideas are just ideas. one still doesnt do taiji basic.

[Yoshiyahu]

that picture had me bugging up...Well there is this guy in his fifties who has been doing WC for over 20 years. My Sihing has been doing it for about 20 years. There backs are not hunched.



You say overexaggeration, but I say do it for another 20-30 years and you'll look up like this (see picture):

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00423

Who taught you? They should know...

In Chinese we say "Han Xiong Ba Bei" - This may help you:

http://taijiquan.quanxinquanyi.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45:jumin-on-han-xiong-ba-bei&catid=1:aktuelle-nachrichten&Itemid=29

and:

http://fustyle.org/yu2.htm

But then, that's Tai Ji...

[chusauli]

that picture had me bugging up...Well there is this guy in his fifties who has been doing WC for over 20 years. My Sihing has been doing it for about 20 years. There backs are not hunched.

LOL! Postural kyphosis is preventable!

Glad to hear your training brothers are not hunchbacked.

[Pacman]

Pacman,

Perhaps semantics, perhaps not. You can always check.

what i meant was, perhaps what you refer to as hunchback is not what i am talking about. i am talking about relaxing, letting the shoulders fall naturally, etc etc. basically everything that you hear tai chi, and other soft style, practitioners talk about



What makes you feel you have more in common with Tai Ji and Xing Yi, rather than Shaolin? Its a good discussion. WCK, IMO, is not related to Shaolin, nor uses Shaolin mechanics (however the pole does), although many thnk it comes from Shaolin...

many think it comes from shaolin (due to the legend) so when they teach/practice it i think they maybe bring in that hard external shaolin aspect. look on youtube. when they drill, they do each movement with as much force as possible. when some practice on the dummy they do the same thing.

when you watch some people practice the forms, it is so stiff it looks like it could be karate.

WC as i learned it has more in common with Tai Chi due to the emphasis on relaxation and total body coordination as well as the "waist" power. in fighting, sticky hands and the wooden dummy are about the yin and not overpowering your opponent (which is the shaolin emphasis).

but of course not ever WC teacher has the same view, which is why you see a lot of chain punch charging being taught and it is labeled as good WC because they attacked/protected the centerline




A good friend of mine did a study in graduate school on Tai Ji Quan and found that cardiovascularly, Tai Ji did little for health, and in studies on people over 50 that had practiced for over 10 years, showed it did not produce great athletic ability (jumping, strength, etc.), little cardio on the step test for VO2, little in strength, and when measured with regards to BMI, showed much in overweight and obesity, (in that group) and little change in terms of Blood pressure, cholesterol and blood sugar. If the study were published it might eradicate the myth of Tai Ji for health.

it is not surprising that tai ji does not improve cardio. it is obviously not a physically intensive form of excercise. the mental aspects are the utmost importance

[Hendrik]

it is not surprising that tai ji does not improve cardio. it is obviously not a physically intensive form of excercise. the mental aspects are the utmost importance



The above reasoning is 100000000000000000% false. The taiji strengtening system is a different type of system.

I keep asking if one can evoke one's Zhen qi has a deep reason. That is if one cant evoke Zhen Qi then one has not yet know and enter the door of practicing the taiji type of system.

[Edmund]

A good friend of mine did a study in graduate school on Tai Ji Quan and found that cardiovascularly, Tai Ji did little for health, and in studies on people over 50 that had practiced for over 10 years, showed it did not produce great athletic ability (jumping, strength, etc.), little cardio on the step test for VO2, little in strength, and when measured with regards to BMI, showed much in overweight and obesity, (in that group) and little change in terms of Blood pressure, cholesterol and blood sugar. If the study were published it might eradicate the myth of Tai Ji for health.


Maybe if they GOT published it would have some validity.

There have been quite a few published studies which have more validity than a study that does not get published. e.g.

The effect of tai chi exercise on blood pressure: a systematic review.
Yeh GY, Wang C, Wayne PM, Phillips RS.
Prev Cardiol. 2008 Spring;11(2):82-9. Review.

This is a review of previous studies which they found via actually looking stuff up.
Preventative Cardiology is a known medical journal for cardiology.

"Twenty-six studies examining patients with and without cardiovascular conditions met inclusion criteria: 9 randomized controlled trials, 13 nonrandomized studies, and 4 observational studies. Study heterogeneity precluded formal meta-analyses. Twenty-two studies (85%) reported reductions in BP with tai chi (3-32 mm Hg systolic and 2-18 mm Hg diastolic BP reductions). Five randomized controlled trials were of adequate quality (Jadad score > or = 3). No adverse effects were reported."

So 85% of the studies that they found reported a reduction in blood pressure.

WHY even bring up VO2? That is an indication of aerobic capacity.

Same goes for blood sugar and cholesterol. Those are not really exercise related.
"Blood sugar" WTF? Are we talking diabetics? Unless you just ate, most humans blood sugar falls within a set and fairly narrow range. You don't want it going down or up! You can't exercise it off like fat.

[chusauli]

Maybe if they GOT published it would have some validity.

There have been quite a few published studies which have more validity than a study that does not get published. e.g.

The effect of tai chi exercise on blood pressure: a systematic review.
Yeh GY, Wang C, Wayne PM, Phillips RS.
Prev Cardiol. 2008 Spring;11(2):82-9. Review.

This is a review of previous studies which they found via actually looking stuff up.
Preventative Cardiology is a known medical journal for cardiology.

"Twenty-six studies examining patients with and without cardiovascular conditions met inclusion criteria: 9 randomized controlled trials, 13 nonrandomized studies, and 4 observational studies. Study heterogeneity precluded formal meta-analyses. Twenty-two studies (85%) reported reductions in BP with tai chi (3-32 mm Hg systolic and 2-18 mm Hg diastolic BP reductions). Five randomized controlled trials were of adequate quality (Jadad score > or = 3). No adverse effects were reported."

So 85% of the studies that they found reported a reduction in blood pressure.

WHY even bring up VO2? That is an indication of aerobic capacity.

Same goes for blood sugar and cholesterol. Those are not really exercise related.
"Blood sugar" WTF? Are we talking diabetics? Unless you just ate, most humans blood sugar falls within a set and fairly narrow range. You don't want it going down or up! You can't exercise it off like fat.

Different groups = different results.

The unpublished study was a group of asian males in their 50"s, who practiced Tai Ji for over 10 years. The blood pressure, blood sugar and cholesterol levels were to ascertain their base physiology, as viewed in the eyes of modern medicine.

That study basically showed there was no measurable health difference with the Tai Ji practice and that Tai Ji Quan did not produce supermen, nor were they greater as they got older contrary to popular myth.

I asked my friend to publish it...

[Pacman]

The above reasoning is 100000000000000000% false. The taiji strengtening system is a different type of system.

I keep asking if one can evoke one's Zhen qi has a deep reason. That is if one cant evoke Zhen Qi then one has not yet know and enter the door of practicing the taiji type of system.


as usual i understood about 5% of that post, but if you are confusing Zen meditation with Taoist (Tai Chi) meditation then you have a lot to learn

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hendrik is just a confused person, period. :eek:

So go easy on him! ;)

[Edmund]

Different groups = different results.


No you have one unpublished result whereas the other review has 26 published results which all scored 3/5 or more on the Jadad scale. This means blinded and/or randomized clinical trials or some element of randomizing of the results or observations.

Your study sounds like it's scoring less than 3/5.

[CFT]

as usual i understood about 5% of that post, but if you are confusing Zen meditation with Taoist (Tai Chi) meditation then you have a lot to learn


Hendrik is just a confused person, period. :eek:

So go easy on him! ;)You're letting your personal prejudices cloud your reasoning.

Zhen Qi activation/cultivation has got nothing to do with Zen/Chan meditation AFAIK. There is a process or maybe processes since each school's method may be different.


WC as i learned it has more in common with Tai Chi due to the emphasis on relaxation and total body coordination as well as the "waist" power. To describe Taiji in just these terms is not enough if you are a "true" (LOL) IMA practitioner. If you buy into the "Internal" school of thought then you have to address the cultivation of zhen qi as Hendrik keeps bringing up.

[Yoshiyahu]

what i meant was, perhaps what you refer to as hunchback is not what i am talking about. i am talking about relaxing, letting the shoulders fall naturally, etc etc. basically everything that you hear tai chi, and other soft style, practitioners talk about

Pacman excellent analogy. This is great. To me trying to strengthing the chest kinda hurts its like doing something your body is naturally use to. An many WC people on youtube look Superman with their chest stuck out and their backed concaved. Lol....ha ha...Extremely funny looking. Its like exposing all your organs making it easier for someone to strike them...

Yes, its true Many people do their SLT and other forms too hard. But this is Mostly in Yip Man Lineage from what I have seen. But I practice my forms slow, fast, medium. As well as Light and Soft, Medium Force, and Extremely hard snapping force at the end of each strike.

[Pacman]

To describe Taiji in just these terms is not enough if you are a "true" (LOL) IMA practitioner. If you buy into the "Internal" school of thought then you have to address the cultivation of zhen qi as Hendrik keeps bringing up.

you are right, there is more to it than what i wrote, but i am not hendrik and so i didnt feel like writing an essay--i obviously learned something different than what others learned

[Hendrik]

as usual i understood about 5% of that post, but if you are confusing Zen meditation with Taoist (Tai Chi) meditation then you have a lot to learn


who is confusing here?

or speaking with an expert tone on something one is clueless?


Dont believe me? hahahah, describe the following.

do you mind to share what is Zen meditation and taoist meditation means?

and what is Taiji practice is about?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik is just a confused person, period. :eek:

So go easy on him! ;)



sure, from some one who has a confused mind and could not differentiate what is what.

[Hendrik]

You're letting your personal prejudices cloud your reasoning.

Zhen Qi activation/cultivation has got nothing to do with Zen/Chan meditation AFAIK. There is a process or maybe processes since each school's method may be different.

To describe Taiji in just these terms is not enough if you are a "true" (LOL) IMA practitioner. If you buy into the "Internal" school of thought then you have to address the cultivation of zhen qi as Hendrik keeps bringing up.



Yup. show the "beef".

[Hendrik]

you are right, there is more to it than what i wrote, but i am not hendrik and so i didnt feel like writing an essay--i obviously learned something different than what others learned


those who knows needs only to mention three things or three sentences for evoking Zhen Qi.

and let me assertively draw a conclusion on your hunch back....etc.

It doesnt work, in fact it block the hell out of the Ren and Du medirians.

why do I know? because I know those who can do it and it was pointing out to me, your hunch back YJYKM lock the hell out of the proper flow of the medirians.

since you dont have the technology and havent even seen one. so you dont know.

It is not that I am being erogant here but trying to help those who were in a wrong path.


You know, dont let those real IMA people laught at WCK and saying WCK is full of $hit and fantasy.

[Hendrik]

Instead of BSing and speaking non sense.

The following this the core of Taiji basic.


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=951022&postcount=40



One needs to gentlely gear in and out of the Qi state. IE: slowly get into the state and then slowly get back to the normal state by slowly gradually moving...etc. NO absolutely NO abrupt movements.....etc

Disclaimer:
IMA practice needs a teacher
The above is just my personal description, not mean to advice or recoment anyone to practice. anyone who practice it is practice at their own risk.

[Pacman]

who is confusing here?

or speaking with an expert tone on something one is clueless?


Dont believe me? hahahah, describe the following.

do you mind to share what is Zen meditation and taoist meditation means?

and what is Taiji practice is about?

well the goal of zen meditation and taoist meditation have similarities for the most part, but big differences in the path to those goals

one major difference is zen (and buddhist meditation in general) seeks to completely empty the mind where taoist meditation seeks to concentrate the mind on a singularity.

there is much more to it than this, this is just one fundamental difference

[Hendrik]

well the goal of zen meditation and taoist meditation have similarities for the most part, but big differences in the path to those goals

one major difference is zen (and buddhist meditation in general) seeks to completely empty the mind where taoist meditation seeks to concentrate the mind on a singularity.

there is much more to it than this, this is just one fundamental difference



To be real honest, you are wrong.

again, i am not trying to be down play you.
Most people 99% doesnt know because they dont have a teacher who knows.


and because whoever tell you the above have never enter into the state, they are speculate. What you describe above not even enter into the gate yet.



See, if you cant evoke your Zhen Qi, doenst know what is Zen practice and doesnt know what is the Daoist practice, but thinking you know. how wasteful is life travelling in this mis leading direction?

The bottom line is travelling this path will not get you result. Seriously.




Let me reveal to you the teaching of Zen, Zen is Non attachment. Thus, Zen doesnt seeks to completely empty the mind. and in fact , seek is wrong practice and completely empty the mind is totally attach to empty the mind.


Let me reveal to you the teaching of Daoism, the practice of Daoism is cultivate the essence to become Qi, transform Qi to Shen, Return the Shen to Emptiness. one needs to enter into silence to even begin the first step, cultivat the essence to become qi. A use of slightly Strong intention will cause one trouble. Thus, seeks to concentrate the mind on a singularity is wrong practice.


You see one cant listern to those he says she says and legend and books and speculation. Chinese IMA and cultivation, one simply needs to baisi to proper sifu to learn, and the sifu will coach one properly. and after one knows the path, set a side a few years to cultivate to get the result.



Now return to the YYKYM and hunch back. how can you justified your training and leading to that direction on something which you dont know but think you know?

[Pacman]

To be real honest, you are wrong.

again, i am not trying to be down play you.
Most people 99% doesnt know because they dont have a teacher who knows.


and because whoever tell you the above have never enter into the state, they are speculate. What you describe above not even enter into the gate yet.



See, if you cant evoke your Zhen Qi, doenst know what is Zen practice and doesnt know what is the Daoist practice, but thinking you know. how wasteful is life travelling in this mis leading direction?

The bottom line is travelling this path will not get you result. Seriously.




Let me reveal to you the teaching of Zen, Zen is Non attachment. Thus, Zen doesnt seeks to completely empty the mind. and in fact , seek is wrong practice and completely empty the mind is totally attach to empty the mind.


Let me reveal to you the teaching of Daoism, the practice of Daoism is cultivate the essence to become Qi, transform Qi to Shen, Return the Shen to Emptiness. one needs to enter into silence to even begin the first step, cultivat the essence to become qi. A use of slightly Strong intention will cause one trouble. Thus, seeks to concentrate the mind on a singularity is wrong practice.


You see one cant listern to those he says she says and legend and books and speculation. Chinese IMA and cultivation, one simply needs to baisi to proper sifu to learn, and the sifu will coach one properly. and after one knows the path, set a side a few years to cultivate to get the result.



Now return to the YYKYM and hunch back. how can you justified your training and leading to that direction on something which you dont know but think you know?

hendrik, i barely understand what you are talking about except that you disagree with me.

all i can say is repeat, buddhist meditation techniques in general are the way i described as well as taoist. those are the differences.

you have a credibility of zero here. please stop posting. its a waste of bandwidth

[Hendrik]

hendrik, i barely understand what you are talking about except that you disagree with me.

all i can say is repeat, buddhist meditation techniques in general are the way i described as well as taoist. those are the differences.

you have a credibility of zero here. please stop posting. its a waste of bandwidth




the reason I post here is not to disagree with you, I am here describe what those things are, so that the cultivators of the present and future be able to know the path of liberation.

If you dont like to read it ignore it, that is not for you.





You talk about credibility,

hahaha, have you ever
Evoke Zhen Qi, entering into silence, attain non attachement?
if not, what credibility are you talking about?


you see, until you could enter into silence, evoke zhen qi, attain non attachement, you certainly will never understand what it is because you simply dont know.

it is an attainment, it is not speculation and not book reading.



As in the song of enligthement says:


"......A true monk is completely decided....
If you are not convinced, ask me frank questions.
To be in accord with the Buddha-sealed: Go to The Root!
I have no help for those who search for twigs.....

The Mani-pearl is not known to men
It lies in the Tathagata Storehouse, and
Its Six-fold Function is beyond "is" or "is not"
From it comes One Perfect Light -- it is not formed and yet not formless.

To purify the five types of vision and gain the five powers,
One must personally realize that which is beyond conception.
It is easy to recognize images in a mirror,
But who can grasp the Moon from the Water?...."



This above are the teaching of the master of the past, present, and future.








... Waiting up in heaven
I was never far from you
Spinning down I felt your every move


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwbtbfAnI80



The Dao or Buddha nature is not that far, it is just human dont believe that they can let go their speculation and concepts and thoughts and security and survival......

if you could let all of those go, what is that "thing which is no thing" but all aware ? isnt that your buddha nature? why do you need meditation? you just need let go of attachement.

So what is lower level teaching of Daoism different then the above directly pointing to the buddha nature? Daosim still attach at silence and energy. They attach at the Zhen Qi has to spin this way, the chakra got to be open that way.... and everything got to harmonize with nature.

For those who sees their original face knows, life is not different then watching a movie. So, disregards of how the Qi spin, there will be a time the movie is over. Thus, if the spin is there ok, if it is the time the qi spin gone, that is ok to. The attainment is liberation -- non attachement.

Everything OK is non attachement, but than human cant do that because human are selectively OK. not everything OK.


Thus, you want to practice HUNCH Back? that is ok. you choose your karma.

[Yoshiyahu]

To Understand truth first you must accept all things are false.

I know the truth because it is with in my self.

All Knowing is found with in. Not with out.

True Zen is true self. There fore you can not tell me Zen. No one can. I am Zen. Zen is with in myself. To evoke Zen Qi one must evoke ones own Yi. And become nothing. Release your will and let nothing happen. Then you will Know everything with out knowing with out doing. True Knowledge is not knowing. An not knowing is really knowing everything. To obtain true Zen Qi do nothing, think nothing, try nothing. Learn contentment. But how do you learn contentment? By not learning. No need to learn contentment because you can be taught. The truth is with in you. I am truth. You can not come to me for the truth. For the truth is with in me. You must look with in your self to find the truth. So do nothing and think nothing and then you will obtain true Qi.


the reason I post here is not to disagree with you, I am here describe what those things are, so that the cultivators of the present and future be able to know the path of liberation.

If you dont like to read it ignore it, that is not for you.

You who wish to cultivate chi. Do nothing but live content. Eat your food, Breathe in Air and drink water. Walk, Run, and do your Gung Fu. Do these things expecting nothing. Eat your food just to eat your food. Not to fill your belly. Drink your water just to drink your water and not to clench your thirst. Do your kung fu just do your kung fu. Breathe not live but breathe just to breathe. Then you obtain Chi with out really doing. You can cultivate Chi. Just live. Do nothing. Don't try. If you try you have already lost.


Do you understand Hendrik?

Do you know? Do you don't know? Did you learn to unlearn what you think you learn. Do nothing at all Hendrik. For in nothingness is everything. Just like a Ford Focus. It does nothing. But yet it was created out of the earth. It is driven by men and women. It is fed Gas, Oil and other lubricants. It transport many people to different places. It goes not by its own will but the will of others. So Hendrik be like the Ford Focus. For you were created by someone else. So be controlled by someone else. Be fed by someone else. Be driven by someone else. When the ford focus is not being driven by someone else it does nothing. So do nothing Hendrik unless you are driven to do so?

Do you understand Hendrik?



You talk about credibility,

hahaha, have you ever
Evoke Zhen Qi, entering into silence, attain non attachement?
if not, what credibility are you talking about?


you see, until you could enter into silence, evoke zhen qi, attain non attachement, you certainly will never understand what it is because you simply dont know.

it is an attainment, it is not speculation and not book reading.



As in the song of enligthement says:


"......A true monk is completely decided....
If you are not convinced, ask me frank questions.
To be in accord with the Buddha-sealed: Go to The Root!
I have no help for those who search for twigs.....

The Mani-pearl is not known to men
It lies in the Tathagata Storehouse, and
Its Six-fold Function is beyond "is" or "is not"
From it comes One Perfect Light -- it is not formed and yet not formless.

To purify the five types of vision and gain the five powers,
One must personally realize that which is beyond conception.
It is easy to recognize images in a mirror,
But who can grasp the Moon from the Water?...."



This above are the teaching of the master of the past, present, and future.








... Waiting up in heaven
I was never far from you
Spinning down I felt your every move


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwbtbfAnI80



The Dao or Buddha nature is not that far, it is just human dont believe that they can let go their speculation and concepts and thoughts and security and survival......

if you could let all of those go, what is that "thing which is no thing" but all aware ? isnt that your buddha nature? why do you need meditation? you just need let go of attachement.

So what is lower level teaching of Daoism different then the above directly pointing to the buddha nature? Daosim still attach at silence and energy. They attach at the Zhen Qi has to spin this way, the chakra got to be open that way.... and everything got to harmonize with nature.

For those who sees their original face knows, life is not different then watching a movie. So, disregards of how the Qi spin, there will be a time the movie is over. Thus, if the spin is there ok, if it is the time the qi spin gone, that is ok to. The attainment is liberation -- non attachement.

Everything OK is non attachement, but than human cant do that because human are selectively OK. not everything OK.


Thus, you want to practice HUNCH Back? that is ok. you choose your karma.

[Hendrik]

To Understand truth first you must accept all things are false.

I know the truth because it is with in my self.

All Knowing is found with in. Not with out.

True Zen is true self. There fore you can not tell me Zen. No one can. I am Zen. Zen is with in myself. To evoke Zen Qi one must evoke ones own Yi. And become nothing. Release your will and let nothing happen. Then you will Know everything with out knowing with out doing. True Knowledge is not knowing. An not knowing is really knowing everything. To obtain true Zen Qi do nothing, think nothing, try nothing. Learn contentment. But how do you learn contentment? By not learning. No need to learn contentment because you can be taught. The truth is with in you. I am truth. You can not come to me for the truth. For the truth is with in me. You must look with in your self to find the truth. So do nothing and think nothing and then you will obtain true Qi.



another fantasy.

[Yoshiyahu]

another fantasy.

Now this is the only thing I understand from you. its about time you spoke with understanding. Everyone else will be overjoyed to see you can talk normal...wow.
So how is mere fantasy hendrik? what makes my parables fantasy and yours reality?

[chusauli]

Yoshi,

I think you need to study with a Roshi or Chan Master before you speak of things as you have.

Master Hsuan Hua (Hendrik's Chan master) said, "Enlightened, one word is too much; not enlightened, even a library is not enough."

Maybe real study will help you penetrate to insight.

Get some real teachings.

[Hendrik]

Yoshi,

I think you need to study with a Roshi or Chan Master before you speak of things as you have.

Master Hsuan Hua (Hendrik's Chan master) said, "Enlightened, one word is too much; not enlightened, even a library is not enough."

Maybe real study will help you penetrate to insight.

Get some real teachings.



Robert,



As the song of enligtenment says


"Right" is not right, nor is "wrong" wrong:
If you miss this by the slightest, you will miss by a thousand miles.
The Dragon Maiclen who believed instantly attained the Buddha Stage,
The scholarly Shang Using did not, and was reborn in Hell.



Do not attempt to measure Heaven
with a small piece of reed for a measuring stick;
If you do not have this insight,
this Song of mine is to settle the matter for you.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yoshi,

I think you need to study with a Roshi or Chan Master before you speak of things as you have.

Master Hsuan Hua (Hendrik's Chan master) said, "Enlightened, one word is too much; not enlightened, even a library is not enough."

Maybe real study will help you penetrate to insight.

Get some real teachings.



Aww but I am higher than Chan. Chan shall be enlighten by me. For with in me. Is enlightenment. You must look with in. Not with out. For if you see the knowledge of others then you are misguided. For the answers you seek are found with in. Look with in for proper guidance not with out. For a true master will you tell to look to yourself. Those interested in followers listening to every word and tipping them will have them forever learning and never coming into to knowledge of truth. Surely if you know these things Chuasli you know its with in. An not with out. Ever as you say a whole library is not enough. For with in you have an infinite intimate connection with all things. From with in is the answers you seek. You do not need to seek a Chan Master to know truth. As for the first Roshi Where did his knowledge come from. In the beginning it was thought. Before the truth was spoken some one thought it. From with in the knowledge proceeded. Not with out. Be an innovator Robert. Why follow the status quo. Learn from yourself. Look with in. I have and I found wounderous things. Look with in unless you afraid of what you might find!

[Pacman]

book buddies...

[Yoshiyahu]

what is book buddies?