CLF: cat and horse stance training basics

[Gowgee]

I recently took a trip to the Guangdong area to see some relatives. This was the second trip for me to the mainland, and to cut to the chase one of my close relatives used to live with a CLF master for a few years as a young man. He showed me some basics he learnt as a young man.

Anyway, I'd like to ask about two of the basic excercises he showed me for CLF practice that apparently work the flexibility, speed and power for your hips. The first one was sitting in horse stance: your forearms are one over the other in front of your chest, and you use the torque of your trunk left>right, and then back again.

The second one is in left cat stance: your hands are on your waist, you turn your hips so your right shoulder is behind you and your left shoulder is facing in front of you 'same direction as where your left knee and foot is pointing), and you then torque both your waist and also bring your right shoulder down until you can still see your opponent in front of you and your stance is still solid.

What are the key points I should focus on with the cat stance? My weight is going into my back knee at the moment - should it? Would appreciate any advice on this basic excercise..

[jdhowland]

Anyway, I'd like to ask about two of the basic excercises he showed me for CLF practice that apparently work the flexibility, speed and power for your hips. The first one was sitting in horse stance: your forearms are one over the other in front of your chest, and you use the torque of your trunk left>right, and then back again.

This is for waist flexibility, essential in CLF training. The horse must be low enough to stabilize the pelvis while the waist turns. If you find your hips moving with the trunk rotations, lower your stance until the knees and hips do not move with the rest of the body. This can also be practiced with the hands on the waist, but be sure that the hands do not touch the hips or you will lose the waist isolation. As you warm up with the exercise, your elbows should approach an imaginary centerline bisecting your stance. When you have sufficient blood supply to the spinal area you can go full-tilt boogie and the elbows and shoulders swing well past the centerline. Keep your weight off the balls of the feet or the momentum will pull you forward and you lose your horse. There are many benefits to this exercise but, in a nutshell, you cannot do the CLF strikes without exceptional waist rotation skill.


The second one is in left cat stance: your hands are on your waist, you turn your hips so your right shoulder is behind you and your left shoulder is facing in front of you 'same direction as where your left knee and foot is pointing), and you then torque both your waist and also bring your right shoulder down until you can still see your opponent in front of you and your stance is still solid.

What are the key points I should focus on with the cat stance? My weight is going into my back knee at the moment - should it? Would appreciate any advice on this basic excercise..

This is basic training preparatory to ng leun ma practice. You should not feel strain in your back knee or you will hurt yourself. Try shifting your weight onto your back heel and let your bone structure and thigh muscles support your weight. You can have as much as 20% of your weight on the toes of your front foot as long as you are able to raise your knee for kicking or for duhk luhp ma posture without any visible shifting to the rear.

When you "torque your waist" and bring the right shoulder down are you stopping with your chest facing the front leg, or are you continuing the move until the right shoulder is forward? The latter is correct and allows you to switch from a front hand technique to a rear hand forward technique without sacrificing your stance.

We practice this as a "ballistic" stretch/strengthening move by springing back and forth between a front elbow forward to back elbow forward and back again. As you begin to step back from your horse into diu ma, open you chest toward the hanging foot. This allows you to respond to an attack with either hand. You can also torque the waist more so that your back elbow faces forward, but don't try to hold this as a static posture. As you settle your weight onto the back foot, "close the door" by strongly returning to a same side forward posture. You can imagine a technique such as responding to a threat from your left side by shifting slightly to the right (if there is time) and withdrawing your left foot while deflecting a strike with your right hand. Then, sinking more strongly into diu ma, you can punch with the left hand or apply an armlock with your left elbow or forearm.

Start off slowly. Eventually you can feel the moment when the muscles on one side of the back relax and allow you to engage the opposite side to open and close the doors with considerable force. This is one of the key skills in CLF.

Be well.

jd

[Gowgee]

jdhowland,

Sincere thanks for your advice and insights into these excercises. I felt they seemed very important to the CLF style, and greatly appreciate your pointers - they clarified things and should prevent unnecessary injuries.


When you "torque your waist" and bring the right shoulder down are you stopping with your chest facing the front leg, or are you continuing the move until the right shoulder is forward?

I got shown turning your shoulders until the right shoulder is forward (with some examples like throwing a left chaap choi, then a right sou choi both from the same stance).

I got quite a CLF saturation this trip, but am thinking of just focusing on these excercises first before even moving into stance shifting or the hands/feet. Can I ask what CLF beginners normally start with in terms of training content? Would they focus on this, or perhaps other material?

[jdhowland]

I got quite a CLF saturation this trip, but am thinking of just focusing on these excercises first before even moving into stance shifting or the hands/feet. Can I ask what CLF beginners normally start with in terms of training content? Would they focus on this, or perhaps other material?

Train with whatever you can remember. The knowledge was given to you, so it's yours. Even if it's a little wrong, you can correct it during your next trip. If there are any CLF teachers in your area you might go to them for more instruction, even if they are from a different lineage. Second choice might be any southern style training or any Chinese arts available.

The written word is a poor substitute for an instructor, but there are some highly experienced Choy Lay practitioners on this forum. Scan the archives and I think you'll come up with a thread or two dealing with basic technique.

To give a rough answer to your question about training content, bouh faat is the most important training for beginners. CLF has a well thought out methodology for teaching that tends to be similar among different schools: basic footwork and big movements first; quick footwork and small movements later.

CLF does not emphasize long periods of static horse training, but if you can hold a solid riding horse posture for five minutes you will develop some of the posture training that will be valuable as you learn to move. Work on waist rotation and any hand techniques you were shown. And if you were shown how to slide sideways in your horse stance it is even better because you can practice shifting your weight and moving with power. This should be taught very early because you cannot learn to develop power from static postures alone.

Hope this helps.

jd

[CLFNole]

JD:

Not to hijack this thread but it turns out it is quite a small world as I am currently teaching the son (5 years old) of one of your former students. His fathers name is Wayne and I believe you were a student of his mother, I think she taught Japanese at the university and was also into the japense arts from what I gather. I think Wayne would have been around college age and he told me you whipped him into shape.

Peace and on with the thread.

[jdhowland]

JD:

Not to hijack this thread but it turns out it is quite a small world as I am currently teaching the son (5 years old) of one of your former students. His fathers name is Wayne...

CLFNole, you just blew my mind. I was hoping you would jump into this thread, but i could never have expected this! Wayne L. is a gem. I am glad he sought out a good teacher for his son. And i am very pleased that it is you.

Maybe you could suggest to Wayne that he join this forum? At any rate, my greetings and heartfelt appreciation to all of you. May your tribe increase.

jd

[CLFNole]

Well technically he is my sifu's student but as he doesn't have much help with the children's class I help him out 2 days in addition to teaching adult classes. My initiation 15 years ago was with the kids class and I thought I was out but like Al Pacino said in the Godfather III..."just when I thought I was out they pull me back in". I hadn't taught the kids for a long time but now actually enjoy it becuase there are some kids even young ones that really enjoy kung fu.

By the way, Wayne spoke very highly of you.

Peace.

[Gowgee]

JD,

Thank you once again for your insights. Much appreciated!

[CLFNole]

Gowgee:

You can also work a drill from ng lun ma that sounds a bit like what you learned.

Hands on waist, step into right cat stance (dew ma), slide right into sei ping ma, turn right (really turning your waist as much as you can) into gong ma (bow stance), then uncoil and sink back into sei ping ma then repeat.

You can can do this as many times as you like going from right side to left but in the ng lun ma form it is done 3x on the right then 3x on the left before starting the next section.

Peace

[Gowgee]

CLFNole,

Sincere thanks for this drill. When I was originally shown the dew ma and sei ping ma work, the old man had me working slowly at first at around one torque each two seconds, then each second, and then faster. Admittedly he was giving me a bit of a crash course, and I've deliberately slowed down my practice to get a better understanding of the mechanics (that JD so kindly explained) before working things up again. I've seen ng lun ma before - is the drill you explained practiced at that sort of pace?

[CLFNole]

I have seen it practised different ways. Sometimes I do it slow holding the stances for more extended periods just to work on leg strength and correct form with the stance but it is really better suited to be more lively with the footwork with quick explosive turning of the waist as this is better suited for CLF. Both have the merits for overall practice though.

[hskwarrior]

One thing we do in our lineage while in the Cat stance before stepping into Sei Ping Ma is a clockwise then counterclockwise circle with our toes then step into the sei ping ma or general horse as we call it.

The circling of the toe's is an evasive maneuver if someone tried to sweep your front leg.

[Gowgee]

CLFNole and Hskwarrior,

Many thanks for your much appreciated insights.

[hskwarrior]

gowgee,

give it a try. start out in cat stance, let the guy sweep your front leg as you do the circle. he will slide right on by. :D