What is the most prevalent injury in Martial arts, And what system do you train in??

[kwaichang]

MA are rampant with injury what is the most prevalent injury Low Back Knee Hip Neck?

[David43515]

I don`t see that many injuries in MA classes, Sprains and pulls seem to be the most comon though. Someone`s always taping up a bad ankle. I do N. Shaolin and some Silat. Friends that do Judo tell me the most common injuries there are to thier shoulders.

[uki]

i see alot of balloon egos that tend to blow up and go pop.

[mawali]

Knee injuries are the most common for wushu related stuff!
MA as in judo, karate, etc can vary but I would guesstimate knuckle, shoulders and lower extremities injury/trauma.
I am sure somewhere one can google MA injuries and see a compilation of problem areas!

Definition:
MA: refererring to full contact, throwing and hitting

[Mr Punch]

According to a book I have it's the knee all across the board.

It's a famous martial arts injury book by a famous martial arts doctor.

[David Jamieson]

I've never sustained injury from martial arts practice, except when someone hits me.

also, I hurt my back playing lion dance once.

But as for the kungfu? nope, no injuries, all good.

15+ years and counting. :)

If you are hurt from normal practice, you are doing it wrong, seek correction or a qualified teacher to help you.

even the most frail of people can have the style adapted to suit their shortcomings.

[Lucas]

the only injury ive gotten from training other than minor bruises/sprains and the like is a broken finger, which i did to myself early on in my training by kicking my own hand...:rolleyes:

other than that, ive busted my ribs a couple times, have had a knee issue, a couple concussions, torn shoulder, chipped/cracked tooth, messed up a couple ligaments. oh and some more broken finger and joint contusions from staff.....

but thats from contact, not technique, pad or drill work.

id have to say over all i would go with knees, generally because they can get weak over time just because of genetics and they take A LOT of stress. injuries are easy to take place as there are so many ways to injure the darn things.

also a lot of martial artists ARE NOT FLEXIBLE ENOUGH!

[uki]

i was once using a crescent knife and a broadsword in freeform where i undercompensated the knife blade with my "brush the knee" kinda move - i sliced thru a hanging length of cloth belt, my shorts and my skin to the bone on the knee cap. i ended up sewing the gash together with a needle, thread, a beer cap for a thimble, and a pair of pliers. i have once stabbed myself in the hip using a jian and i shaved my forehead skin with a broadsword. I once got tendonitis of the shoulder due to iron ball juggling and masonry work overkill. i believe injuries are like dimensional shiftings of gears - once injured and experienced in it, the next one that comes along has to trump it before you will learn the newest lesson... no pain, no gain. :D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I've heard knee injuries are the most common across the board, even in Tai Ji (poorly performed TaiJi, mind you, but nonetheless, there's a lot of that around.) Coming from Wing Chun/Tai Ji/Zi Ran Men, though, I haven't seen all that many. I've seen many more wrist/forearm/hand issues.

Myself, I've broken, torn or dislocated every finger at least once. Sore jaws and dislocated or cracked ribs also crop up every now and again, depending on who I'm training with and how hard.

[Drake]

I've heard knee injuries are the most common across the board, even in Tai Ji (poorly performed TaiJi, mind you, but nonetheless, there's a lot of that around.) Coming from Wing Chun/Tai Ji/Zi Ran Men, though, I haven't seen all that many. I've seen many more wrist/forearm/hand issues.

Myself, I've broken, torn or dislocated every finger at least once. Sore jaws and dislocated or cracked ribs also crop up every now and again, depending on who I'm training with and how hard.

Knee injuries are everywhere. I have an on again, off again IB band issue due to how much running I have to do. I've found the say ping ma (horse stance) helps condition me for the rigors of running.

[uki]

i seem to have avoided major knee injuries mostly due to a rather un-conscious pre-conditioning of nearly 10 years of skateboarding and then another 1000 continuous miles of walking up and down the mountains of the appalchian trail. strengthening the knee has been the better part of my exercise routine for a decade now... the knee has its roots in the kidney - having an over abundance of knee related injuries tends to be a physical manifestation of the inability to let things go(assimilating and removal of waste from the blood stream.) :)

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am not trying to start a fight here, but I think knee injuries prevail because of some of the radical horse stances people use. Too wide and too low. That and all the wierd kicks they do. If your technique has an equal chance of injuring you as well as an opponent I think it might not be a good one. Of course some injuries occur when one person kicks or strikes another, but I think that the vast majority of injuries are self inflicted. If you do real gung fu you will not have to worry about self injury.

[Mr Punch]

You may be right that a lot of especially traditional MA practices cause further knee damage or raise the chance of knee damage.

But knee injuries are the most common in any sport. There's no reason a body can't handle a low horse, providing it isn't used as a warm-up on cold muscles. Twisting movements are far more likely to cause knee damage than perpendicular ones.

As Uki says, skating, walking, hiking and a lot of other similar things will help your knees no end, but then again you can put your knee out bending over in a funny way...

Thomas Kurz's Stadion page: 60-odd free pages of excellent advice EVERYONE in sports of any kind should follow!

[uki]

I am not trying to start a fight here, but I think knee injuries prevail because of some of the radical horse stances people use. Too wide and too low. That and all the wierd kicks they do. If your technique has an equal chance of injuring you as well as an opponent I think it might not be a good one. Of course some injuries occur when one person kicks or strikes another, but I think that the vast majority of injuries are self inflicted. If you do real gung fu you will not have to worry about self injury.excellent post!! obviously the key here is self awareness - knowing ones body and its limitations... train while young, what you can still train when old. :)

[Skip J.]

excellent post!! obviously the key here is self awareness - knowing ones body and its limitations... train while young, what you can still train when old. :)
Oh yeah, take it from us old guys.... my main reason for wanting to take taiji all those younger years is hurting my knees and ankles in tae kwan do.... took about 6 months of taiji for those problems to go away, but now I teach it!

Hey uki, you willin' to give this one up for a few weeks of sig line????

too little time, too many sig worthy lines......

[Lucas]

a link from another thread.

Bas on his knees (http://murasakibjj.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/bada-dinka-dinka-dink/)

[uki]

Hey uki, you willin' to give this one up for a few weeks of sig line????you don't have to ask...


too little time, too many sig worthy lines......yes, yes, yes... i didn't even get warmed up yet. :D

[Skip J.]

you don't have to ask...
yes, yes, yes... i didn't even get warmed up yet. :D
Thanks uki..... I go thru a lotta sig lines....

the best part is when all those old posts get updated to the new sig line... I just love it!

Take care.....and don't bust any more toes.....

[uki]

Thanks uki..... I go thru a lotta sig lines....

the best part is when all those old posts get updated to the new sig line... I just love it!

Take care.....and don't bust any more toes.....how can you possibly go thru so many sig lines if you have only joined in june of this year with only 75 posts??

and how did you know i hurt my toes?????

[Skip J.]

how can you possibly go thru so many sig lines if you have only joined in june of this year with only 75 posts??

and how did you know i hurt my toes?????
Well lets see.... I've been on other forums - not ma forums tho - for 5 or 6 years and go thru a lotta sig lines...

And a week or two back you told me about the boulder running with swords on the post about mountain running on the "this months issue" thread...

I still need to start a thread over in the taiji forum about State Park training for taiji... maybe I'll take my camera and write Gene an article....

[uki]

And a week or two back you told me about the boulder running with swords on the post about mountain running on the "this months issue" thread...ahhh... here just like two or three days ago, i was using a sorry flat shovel and the shovel head flew off, which smashed my toes on my left foot. LOL... *wipes forehead* i was beginning to get a little weirded out there for a second. :D


I still need to start a thread over in the taiji forum about State Park training for taiji... maybe I'll take my camera and write Gene an article....if i lived in texas like you, i would go off and find me some peyote buttons and then i'd mash them together with water to make a potent drink... i would then go off into the spirit world for awhile... explore some new forms, discover some new possibilities. some of the most intense practice comes when i have eaten some magical mushrooms... i have yet to experience the mighty peyote. :)

[Skip J.]

if i lived in texas like you, i would go off and find me some peyote buttons and then i'd mash them together with water to make a potent drink... i would then go off into the spirit world for awhile... explore some new forms, discover some new possibilities. some of the most intense practice comes when i have eaten some magical mushrooms... i have yet to experience the mighty peyote. :)
Hmmnn.. well, before I got married I probably thought the same thing myself... but it's been a long time since 1967 and I can't really remember the details like I used to... my heads' fulla CMA stuff here lately.

[JDK]

a link from another thread.

Bas on his knees (http://murasakibjj.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/bada-dinka-dinka-dink/)

Anyone out there know if continuing to train in Traditional Martial Arts Kung-Fu trainig while both knees are so bad , that 2 Orthopedic Surgeons diagnoised\Total Knee Replacements 4 years ago?

I love Stance Training and Forms....but the pain and loss of flexibility is so brutal,
it makes it hard to be consistant in my training.

Any hope? Ideas?

Thanks
JDK

[Lucas]

ouch. thats a tough situation. unfortunately i dont really have much help for you on that one. :(

the only suggestion/question i would pose is that, out of the stance and form training that you enjoy, is it possible/make a difference, if you adjust the sets/stances to a more comfortable level of depth for your knees?

[Cappadonna]

i just got my first martial arts injury.

my knee

[TenTigers]

many knee injuries come from not being connected with your body-mentally. Not knowing your limitations, not feeling yorself go through the movement, and another big thing-kicking air. When doing line drills, shadowboxing, etc, everyone wants to thrust those kicks out like a rocket, and hear their pants crack like a whip, make the air pop, etc. But, when you are hitting the air with force, the only thing stopping your leg is thr wrenching and tearing of tendon, ligament, and tissue.

According to statictics provided by/for insurance companies, When Aikido was big, it led in injuries to head, neck, spine and joints.
Now, it's MMA=particularly BJJ. BJJ's target market is males-17-30-macho, testosterone junkies. Now we are seeing alot more elobow injuries from 'Not tapping out fast enough"-which means the other guy was an azole, and an increase in injuries to the neck, spine, etc.
MMA is here to stay-but that means as with all Martial Arts-unqualified instructors, teaching poorly supervised classes, with way too many meatheads, which equals injuries.

Add kettlebells and other weight bearing exercises into the mix, and watch the stats grow.

[Lee Chiang Po]

My way of thinking tells me that you should do what the body can do naturally without going into a great deal of conditioning and stretching. Not stuff that you have to do most every day to be able to keep it. By that, I mean just look at the way the body functions. Walking, running, jumping, and then kicking. We can step up pretty high without pulling things apart in your legs and hips. So kicking forward with the heel is somewhat natural in function. A side kick that is not more than about waist high is not too far from natural. But low to mid range kicks can be done with very little to no damage to a knee or hip joint. And you can still do these kicks as you age. I never attempt to throw a kick at full power like I think Tigers said. It sort of tries to hyperextend the knees sometimes. A missed kick can ge injurous to your knees. When kicking forward this way, you seldom fully extend the leg so this is less of a danger. Side kicking can extend the leg fully, so you have to be aware of this too.
I think that if you train something that the body can do naturally, you have a greater ability to achieve high skill with it. It may not look as dramatic as a high jumping kick or some such, but it has a higher degree of success and is less likely to injure both you and your adversary at the same time.

[JDK]

Does anyone have any experience with continuing to train with severe arthritis in both knees?

Short of Knee Replacements....I have no way to strengthen my legs currently,...except by working through immense pain.

Would Stance Training be advisable ?

thanks

[GeneChing]

brain damage.

case and point: this forum.

[mickey]

Hi JKD,

I had an employment situation in the past that required excessive standing. It jacked my knees up so badly that squatting down to pick up something was PAINFUL. I really thought I was finished with MA training...a real depressing thought at the time. Well something guided me to do hamstring strengthening. Doing so helped correct the imbalance between my hamstrings and quad and helped stabilize my knees.

Try doing some hamstring curls and see if that will help you out. If you notice improvement, take it as a sign for you to revamp your leg training (do not neglect the tibialis anterior-- see link).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYWffp98XWs

Nutritional Support: MSM, Rose Hips (anti inflammatory), Water (very important), Fresh Green Vegetables. Research these things before trying. Take a look at your kidney health.

mickey

[TenTigers]

just thought I'd add: hyperextending the knee for ex: by not bringing in high enough for a front kick, you bring your knee up to the waist and kick chest high, two things happen; 1-your kick trajectory changes and the kick doesn't penetrate, but goes upward, and 2- the knee hyperextends.
I train my beginners to kick over a bench or the Lion drum.

[twistingcrane]

Knees and elbows--sprains etc. I've seen knees twisted and torn from bad stances and movement. like turning on your heel and not the ball of your foot --with elbows its generally hyperextended throwing incorrect punches and strikes. Kempo.

[bawang]

i sprain my pinkie knuckle many times for doing sloppy hooks on bags when i get tired. also when i was a kid i pulled my legs seveal times doing air snap kicks.

[JDK]

Hi JKD,

I had an employment situation in the past that required excessive standing. It jacked my knees up so badly that squatting down to pick up something was PAINFUL. I really thought I was finished with MA training...a real depressing thought at the time. Well something guided me to do hamstring strengthening. Doing so helped correct the imbalance between my hamstrings and quad and helped stabilize my knees.
Try doing some hamstring curls and see if that will help you out. If you notice improvement, take it as a sign for you to revamp your leg training (do not neglect the tibialis anterior-- see link).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYWffp98XWs
Nutritional Support: MSM, Rose Hips (anti inflammatory), Water (very important), Fresh Green Vegetables. Research these things before trying. Take a look at your kidney health.

mickey

Thanks for the advice.....I will try and concentrate on Hamstrings and Quad exercises at my Health Club.
I have been putting off getting knee replacements for a couple of years now, for a variety of reasons....even though that seems to be the advice of most.
I just hate the thought of having artificial parts in the bones of both legs.
I also have been told that great care must be taken to not over -stress the new knees , as the parts can become loose and require another , more difficult operation that has a much lower chance of success. ( With knee replacements you cannot Squat low...run...put much weight on them, or practice and spinning, jolting, or twisting movements)
That means that practicing Martial Arts as I have learned them....would be over.

Plus.....some things the Doctors dont like to emphasis to their patients is the fact that Knee Replacements are ALWAYS prone to infection...and that antibiotics are recommended anytime you have something as simple as a Dental Appointment ! The Body never truley works the same again after the artificial parts are inserted into the joint.
Risks for any surgery are:

Breathing problems
Infection, including in the lungs, urinary tract, and chest
Bleeding
Heart attack or stroke during surgery
Dislocation of the artificial joint
Infection that requires removing the joint
Loosening of the artificial joint over time
Pneumonia
Allergic reaction to the artificial joint
Injury to nerves or blood vessels
Blood clots that may form in your leg (deep vein thrombosis) or your lungs (pulmonary embolism)

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002974.htm

Of course the pain and lack of mobility I experience now has drastically lowered my standard of life, and prevents me from doing many of these things anyways....so I guess I am looking for good options where there are not any.
And BTW....It is not just "sore" knees I sufer with...they have been bone on bone for several years now....have begun to bow slightly outward...and the pain while walking and standing is substantial.

Just was hoping someone had worked their way through this with a training regiment that would allow me to avoid surgery.

Thanks again

JDK

[mickey]

Hi JKD,

Bone on bone is tough. I don't know if my suggestions will prove helpful to you. I hope you will find a healthy solution for your situation.

mickey

[David Jamieson]

The more you use a machine, the fatser it will wear out.
If you do not use a machine, it will seize up from disuse.

You are in fact a machine. Biomechanical as it may be, but the rules of existence apply to all of us. :)

find balance.

too much training is simply no good.

not enough is equally as bad.

[md1]

Been training/teaching for 34 years now and no real damage to me from the KF.
Many injuries from the work i do.. masonry and concrete have taken there toll, just got a new hip and one day will need a new knee lol.

The way i see it if I didn't do KF i would be in WAY sorry shape.
Keep training no matter what comes along.

[JDK]

Been training/teaching for 34 years now and no real damage to me from the KF.
Many injuries from the work i do.. masonry and concrete have taken there toll, just got a new hip and one day will need a new knee lol.

The way i see it if I didn't do KF i would be in WAY sorry shape.
Keep training no matter what comes along.

Yes Md1....the arthritis is inherited most likely, not from a result of training or other sports I have played over my life.
The simple fact is the body does eventually wears out.
Many of us have some type genetic predisposition to certain illnesses and conditions.

I firmly agree with you in continuing to train no matter what.
I have been blessed with great health over my lifetime...no doubt in part to keeping physically active and knowing how to avoid illness. ( Much of which I learned from Chinese Medicine)

Maybe I should rephrase my question and ask if anyone out there has had knee replacements...and continue to train ?


JDK

[md1]

Like I said, I had my hip replaced and it was the best thing i ever did... I workout and feel like i'm 25 again. I will need my one knee replaced with in the next year or two and I will not hesitate to get it done.
Yes I also have a friend who had both is knees replaced about 10 years back and he continues to practice his KF to this day. he is 68 years old now.

The pain and lack of movement from arthritis is nothing like any pain i have ever had and after going throught one joint replacement I have NO problem at all going throught it again.

[YouKnowWho]

When you twist your leg around your opponent's leg and just collapse your body on your opponent, you will hurt his knee joint sideway badly.

[Jimbo]

I never had any injuries from simply practicing movements/postures like low stances, kicks, strikes, falls, etc. I've been training regularly for 34 years now. That said, I have been dealing with challenges from some non-MA related injuries from a few years ago.

The worst injuries I've had in MA training was one to my thumb joint, when somebody blocked my right hook to the body with his elbow; an over-cranked neck; a few concussions; jammed fingers and toes; and one time I somehow managed to rip my thumbnail completely off while practicing with a spear, practicing a thrusting movement carelessly. That's about it.