Hung Sing dit da?

[Monkey Magic]

Hi Shifu Frank.. does Dit Da been parctice/known by your Shifu GM Salvatera?

Did Grandmaster Jew Lueng practice dit da? and he did pass this on?

[hskwarrior]

yes, my sifu does practice dit da now.......

and my sigung jew leong's dit da jow is some of the best i've ever seen.....

and yes, that has been passed on as well.

[Monkey Magic]

cool.

What about chinese medicine such like accupuncture, herbal medicine or bone setting? They know this?

[hskwarrior]

Lau Bun was a bone setter. and made many of his own medicine.

Jew Leong made the medicines....but not sure if he set any bones. ill ask my sifu.

and accupuncture? nah.....

[extrajoseph]

Chan Heung also learned medicine from his teachers, so when he returned to King Mui he set up Wing Sing Tong to treat patients as well as continue to teach CLF. This tradition is still being carried on by his great-great grandson Chen Yong-Fa in Sydney Australia today.

Catch a plane and pay him a visit, Frank. You will find out a lot about Jeung Ah-Yim from him and may be able to get some of your muscular-skeletal problems fixed up as well. If you cannot afford the fare, then go and visit Ng Fu-Hang, who is much closer.

You have all the info you need from Chiu Kwong-Yuan and Lun Chee, now it is time to get an opposite point of view from the Chan family. Chiu Kwong-Yuan is pushing your buttons right now, but I am sure you are your own man of action and not a foot soldier.

The information you are searching for about your own lineage from the Chan family point of view is all there. Ask them for a peek at Chapter 44 of Chan Yiu-Chi's History of CLF (make sure you bring someone who can read Chinese handwriting) and you will learn more than you ever bargain for.

Better still, go to King Mui, Gong Moon, Guangzhou and Xinhui and even Jeung Ah-Yim's village before you finish your book, the answers are not in Hung Mun or Ng Joe, they are much more personal than you would ever imagine. Now it is your chance to dig up some skeletons in the CLF cupboards and make yourself famous.

Frank, make this your life's mission instead of hanging around gangsters. I am no hater and I can see a lot of potential in you (naivety can be a strength as well as weakness), so go for it before you are too old.

[chasincharpchui]

what does Chui Kwong Yoon or the late GGM Lun Chee have to do with all this?

[Monkey Magic]

Lau Bun was a bone setter. and made many of his own medicine.

Jew Leong made the medicines....but not sure if he set any bones. ill ask my sifu.

and accupuncture? nah.....


Thanks Shifu Frank.

[hskwarrior]

Chan Heung also learned medicine from his teachers, so when he returned to King Mui he set up Wing Sing Tong to treat patients as well as continue to teach CLF. This tradition is still being carried on by his great-great grandson Chen Yong-Fa in Sydney Australia today.

Yeah, but no one asked you about Chan Heung did they?

See, YOU are the one who always has to stank up something and take the attention away to put it on chan heung. too funny, you just don't want NOTHING about Jeung Yim to come out huh?

[hskwarrior]

You will find out a lot about Jeung Ah-Yim from him

no thank you. I'll stick to MY lineage. you stick to yours. you have NOTHING to offer us. at all!!!


You have all the info you need from Chiu Kwong-Yuan and Lun Chee, now it is time to get an opposite point of view from the Chan family.

I did. And your chan family archives from Chan Heung don't contain much, and doesn't even mention when Jeung Hung Sing began training under him. you can keep your third generation version of MY lineage. I'll stick to what my lineage tells me.


Chiu Kwong-Yuan is pushing your buttons right now, but I am sure you are your own man of action and not a foot soldier.

See, you're lying again. I've NEVER had a conversation in my life with CKY. I can't even say nice try EJ..........not even NICE LIE......

And, yes, i am my own man with my own sense of logic, and passion to know the history. I don't listen to one person ever.....i take what i hear, do my own research and take it from there.


Ask them for a peek at Chapter 44 of Chan Yiu-Chi's History of CLF (make sure you bring someone who can read Chinese handwriting) and you will learn more than you ever bargain for.

Again. Chan Yiu Chi would have been no more than a 19 year old kid when Jeung Hung Sing died. you can keep your chapter 44 authored by the third generation master Chan Yiu Chi.

If you or anyone wants to know about Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon history, you should go to its source. not the guy across the street.

The only records I want to see, and have been told what it says anyway, is from Chan Heung himself. According to Chan Heung's notes Jeung Hung Sing returned to Fut San in 1867 to re-open his own school. It does not mention when he trained there.

So guess what? Jeung Hung Sing's lineage has never claimed anything else other than Jeung Hung Sing was 12 years old when he first came to train with Chan Heung. WHAT DO YOU HAVE THAT COUNTERS THIS? TOO BAD......YOU CAN'T!!!! NOT WITH ANYTHING FROM CHAN HEUNG'S RECORDS.


the answers are not in Hung Mun or Ng Joe,

OH YES IT IS.....AND OUR 5 CONTINENTS. that's just YOU trying to cause doubt cause you know in your heart that i found the answers.


Now it is your chance to dig up some skeletons in the CLF cupboards and make yourself famous.

Frank, make this your life's mission instead of hanging around gangsters. I am no hater and I can see a lot of potential in you (naivety can be a strength as well as weakness), so go for it before you are too old.

I'm not digging up skeletons. I'm digging up answers for my lineage. Hung Mun has the answers and is quite all over the Lau Bun lineage. You just don't see it from my perspective. And i study the Hung Mun and all its secrets, and symbols and even know how to decipher them. If you don't then you would miss the meanings.

Your Chan Family archives from Chan Yiu Chi have nothing to offer us. nothing.

[hskwarrior]

Monkey Magic,

thanks for being polite and courteous. I do appreciate that.

[extrajoseph]

what does Chui Kwong Yoon or the late GGM Lun Chee have to do with all this?

If you were at the last CLF origin siminar in 2003, where Chui Kwong Yuan also attended, then you would know who is behind Futshan and an alternative history to CLF. Lun Chee was part of this clique to discredit the King Mui origin of CLF. They have an old score to settle going as far back as the Chan Heung Memorial Association days in Hong Kong. You are too young to know this.

[extrajoseph]

Your Chan Family archives from Chan Yiu Chi have nothing to offer us. nothing.

The Chan family archive is not mine, but I do come from that lineage and I am old enough and seen enough to know what goes on while you are too young and in the dark.

Your lineage is tied up with the Chan family, Jeung Ah-Yim learned from Chan Heung and they have written records about him.

[hskwarrior]

Lun Chee was part of this clique to discredit the King Mui origin of CLF.

Why is the Grand Elder Lun Chee or Chui Kwong Yuen wrong? Cause they don't agree with the history Chan Yiu Chi is putting out?

I will agree with my elders.....not yours.

i recall a story of Wu Van Cheuk trying to push that story onto Lun Chee who told him what he could do with it......hahahahaha.


but I do come from that lineage and I am old enough and seen enough to know what goes on while you are too young and in the dark.

what is going on is you were happy as long as the Hung Sing branch kept quiet. but as soon as we began talking about our history you start jumping up and down calling us liars.

thats hella funny to me.


Your lineage is tied up with the Chan family, Jeung Ah-Yim learned from Chan Heung and they have written records about him.

Right, from 1836 to 1841 Jeung Yim trained with Chan Heung. Then left in 1841 to train with Ching Cho. He came back to Chan Heung and shared what he learned from the GGM. Then went back to Fut San.

So where did Jeung Hung Sing get all this time to train under Chan Heung if he was training for the Tai Ping Rebellion, and the Red Turban Revolt, the 2nd Opium wars and so forth? See, history places Jeung Hung Sing there, so how does that settle with your Chan Family account?

[extrajoseph]

Jeung Ah-Yim never left Chan Heung, he was sent to Futshan in 1875 to take over from another teacher 陈典桓 who has gone blind and he built up a great branch school from there. To be fair, we must not forget the ground work laid by 陈典桓.

[hskwarrior]

he was sent to Futshan in 1875

What was he doing prior to this? And, how can he be SENT to fut san when his own school was established 24 years prior to this?

LOL....that was a bad attempt. hahahaha

[extrajoseph]

The school was started by the first teacher, only 20 or so years later did Jung Ah-Yim took over. He did not really came into his own until after Chan Heung die.

[hskwarrior]

The school was started by the first teacher, only 20 or so years later did Jung Ah-Yim took over.

right. Jeung Hung Sing took over that school in 1875. However, it wasn't the first time for Jeung Hung Sing in Fut San. Jeung Hung Sing's 洪勝館 was founded in 1851.

There's something wrong with your records because for some reason it keeps leaving that out. And, Jeung Hung Sing's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon was the largest and most structured schools of its time. And that is not MY assessment, I am repeating what has been reported.

[hskwarrior]

蔡李佛拳的形成

清代,洪、刘、蔡、李、莫被称为广东五大名拳,相传源自南少林。蔡福、李友山分别为蔡家拳、李家拳的代表人 物。
广东新会县京梅乡陈享(1815～1875),自幼随族叔(少林俗家弟子)陈远护习武,后拜李友山、蔡福为 师。新会县双水镇下村(今东凌村)人张炎 (1824～1893),自幼喜武,曾拜李友山为师,后随陈享习武,17岁时投奔广西八排山闸建寺青草和尚 ,得传以佛门内外八卦拳等技艺及医术。
张炎随青草和尚学艺8年,尽得真传。青草和尚便嘱张炎下山联络各方志士反清复明,并赠“鸿胜”二字予张炎为 名。“鸿”与“洪”(明开国皇帝朱元璋之年号洪武)同音,寓意反清复明事业将取得最后胜利。张炎学成归来后 ,拜见陈享,将所学到的青草和尚的拳法转授给陈享,二人将蔡、李家拳和佛门拳法进行整理,创出 “蔡李佛”拳,取明晰来源之意。由于陈、张二人各有侧重,故二人所传的拳法又有所不同。
咸丰元年(1851年),张炎在佛山开设鸿胜馆。鸿胜蔡李佛派的礼桩诗曰:“大鹏展翼反天手,魁星踢斗清名 留,拱拜五湖复四海,日月拱照万世流”。内含“反清复明”四宇。可见鸿胜馆从创办时起,就把推翻清朝统治作 为宗旨。
张炎在佛山开馆后,即响应太平天国革命,投身军中教授武技,陈享亦在石达开处当幕僚。鸿胜馆的平拳、长拳, 含有“太平天国,长安万年”之意,由此可见蔡李佛拳与太平天国革命的关系。可以说,蔡李佛拳在太平天国革命 中得到了发展和完善。现在,鸿胜馆还保留了很多两军对阵时的器械和技击术。

[hskwarrior]

省的一些专家已通过考证撰文称鸿胜馆是当时中国最大的武馆,而且是活动时间最长(1851～1949年共9 8年)的武术组织。

[hskwarrior]

青草和尚便嘱张炎下山联络各方志士反清复明,并赠“鸿胜”二字予张炎为 名。“鸿”与“洪”(明开国皇帝朱元璋之年号洪武)同音,寓意反清复明事业将取得最后胜利。

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

Do a Chinese Google search and type in these three lots of characters and see what you get:

洪勝館 - only coming from you and people who knows nothing about CLF.
鴻勝館 - lots of info and lots from Futshan
洪勝拳 - again only your stuff.

See you are making things up and the internet is now full of misinformation coming from you, even in Chinese.

Why took down the last thread? It was just getting interesting how you do your research.

[extrajoseph]

蔡李佛始祖馆大事年纪

清嘉庆十一年（1806）七月初十日子时，陈享于新会县京梅村出生，父亲为陈大能。

清嘉庆十七年（1812），陈享随同村族叔陈远护习“佛家拳”拳艺。

清道光元年（1820），陈享师从李友山习“李家拳”拳艺。

清道光三年（1823），陈享往罗浮山师从还俗和尚蔡福深造。

清道光十二年（1832），陈享从罗浮山学得大成，别师下山，于增城县剿匪有功，被朝廷授予“忠勇侯”官衔 和封号“达亭”。

清道光十四年（1834），陈享于新会县城板仔塘开设“永胜堂”药店，一边悬壶行医，一边潜心 钻研武学。

清道光十六年（1836），陈享总结历年所学，初步完成编撰武术训练体系书籍，为报答师恩，将之命名为“蔡 李佛拳谱”。并应乡中父老之邀，于该年的四月初八日，回到京梅村设“洪圣武馆”正式开始公开授徒，馆址选在 村头“缘福陈公祠”。.清道光十八至二十年间（1838－1840），陈享应林则徐之邀，前往广州两广总督 府当幕客，协助林则徐训练水师及组织“禁烟”水勇。随后，率众弟子参与第一次“鸦片战争”，抗 击外来侵略。

清道光二十二年（1842），陈享、陈尊三等人重回京梅村，抱着“以武强族”的信念，宣扬“技进可御外侮， 退则强身健魄”的主张，广收各地前来求学的青年，近代中国历史上有名的人物如洪秀全、冯云山、石达开、刘丽 川等人均曾纳于门下。

清道光二十五年（1845），陈享吸纳陈尊三的主张，在京梅村设立“祖师堂”，派遣蔡李佛精英于两广各地设 立分馆，仅两个月时间，新会的二十多条乡村以及广东、广西等地共出现了四十四间分馆，主要负责人及地点计有 ：陈典拱、陈炳竈于广州；陈承显、陈社然于新会县城；陈燕瑜、陈典鸿于江门；冯云海、陈四妹于花县；陈典胜 、陈典茂于南海；陈典桓于佛山；陈谋壮、陈邦兴于番禺；陈大成、陈华仔于肇庆；陈大楫、陈谋荣于顺德；陈典 承、陈阿牛于香山；陈典邦、陈孙祥于东莞；陈大戌、陈立德于阳春；陈大竈、陈华金于阳江；陈典惠、陈社欣于 开平；陈典珍、陈典联于新宁；陈孙栋于恩平；陈承昱于鹤山；龙子文、陈大女于广西八排山；龙子韬、陈兰姑于 广西浔洲；龙子武、陈金珠于广西南宁；龙子略、陈金玉于广西桂平；洪仁珅、陈凤娇于广西桂林。

因组织相当庞大、遍布地方极广，各分馆的负责人随时依“祖师堂”的安排，彼此进行对调。同时，为了同门互相 识别和联系，除了订下挥拳出脚发“或、的、益、吓、鹤”五音外，在“洪材定取文章事，圣算还推武略通”的门 联基础上，陈尊三还为“祖师堂”撰联“蔡李佛门源自始，少林嫡派是真传”；神位联为“拳出全凭身着力，棍来 须用眼精神”；为各分馆撰联“英棍飞腾龙摆尾，雄拳放出虎昂头”。以上两广各地分馆所培养出来的蔡李佛弟子 ，不久便成为了太平天国农民起义初期的主要军事力量。

清咸丰四年（1854）四月，陈享秘密协助其师兄“洪顺武馆”的陈松年（别号陈金刚）在江门狗山“天地会” 起义（即扯旗起事）。

清咸丰六年（1856），陈享拒绝曾国藩的游说聘请，为逃避清廷的征用，辗转南海、佛山、东莞等地，继而赴 太平天国翼王石达开处当幕客。“天国内讧”事发，石达开“出走”，陈享重返新会欲作照应。不久，农民起义彻 底失败，陈享受牵连遭受清廷追捕，被逼经香港逃往新加坡等南洋各地以行医授拳为生。

清同治三年（1864），陈享远涉重洋往三藩市，任陈氏联宗会武术教师。此前，为保护华侨同胞利益，痛击外 国恶霸基士利。

清同治七年（1868），陈享重返故里，开始专注武学理论研究，著书立说，编汇《蔡李佛技击学》等武学典著 。回乡前曾任香港广东同乡会武术教师，并于香港湾仔拳败设擂侮辱我民族的俄国大力士。“洪圣馆”在香港名声 四起，反受港英当局所忌，其借张炎（陈享的徒弟）之徒陈盛的“犯事”，对“洪圣馆”进行打压。为此被迫停止 馆务，遂更名“雄胜”及“鸿胜”以图再发展。

清光绪元年（1875），陈享指派张炎接替年老双目失明的陈典桓主理佛山分馆的馆务。农历八月廿日陈享因病 于京梅村逝世。 清光绪年间，陈官伯、李恩于广州市龙津西路徐家祠开设蔡李佛分会，这也是广州市有文史记载的首家民间武术场 馆。民国时期，“南天王”陈济棠曾为蔡李佛始祖陈享撰联“始创蔡李佛门，祖绍少林禅宗”。

公元1916年正月，曾在广州、江门、中山等地分馆任教的陈享之子陈官伯（人称蔡李佛二祖）病 故。

公元1937年，陈享之孙陈耀墀由广州返乡接替陈翼耀（后旅居加拿大）掌管京梅洪圣总馆馆务。随后，易名为 “京梅雄胜始祖馆”又称“蔡李佛始祖馆”。 上世纪五十年代初，内地各处蔡李佛武馆因故分别闭馆。此后，长达三十年基本没有开展公开性的集 体活动。

公元1972年1月，陈洁芳（陈耀墀之女）、胡云绰、陈熙、梁彪、林秋、莫民恩、汤锡等陈耀墀的入室弟子， 在香港注册登记成立“蔡李佛始祖陈享公纪念总会”。陈洁芳为永远监督，首任会长为胡云绰。

Frank,

The above is the King Mui version of CLF history derived from the Chen family archive, one can see Chan Heung did participated in many revolutionary activities and why the name has to change from 洪圣 to “雄胜” and “鸿胜”.

One can also appreciated after 30 years of non-public activities from 1937-1972 (Chinese civil war, Japanese invasion and Communist suppression), how important the forming of the "Chan Heung Memorial Association" was in Hong Kong.

The echoes of this event can still be felt in what people like Li Iu-Ling did in Australia and Wong Ha did in Canada, by promoting CLF and the memory of Chan Heung and what Chui Kwong Yuan is doing now (legacy of his father) with Futshan, by attempting to create an alternative history of CLF with Jeung Ah-Yim as the co-founder to rival Chan Heung.

History is driven by political and personal forces hidden behind the scene, without taking them into consideration, it is difficult to sort out the past and how it is affecting the present.

[chasincharpchui]

attempting to create an alternative history of CLF with Jeung Ah-Yim as the co-founder to rival Chan Heung.

History is driven by political and personal forces hidden behind the scene, without taking them into consideration, it is difficult to sort out the past and how it is affecting the present.

the above can be said the same about your side of the family with chan heung,

creating an alternate history for chan heung. afterall, it was all heresay for gm chan yiu chi's version of the history. he wasn't there when chan heung first learnt kung fu.

[extrajoseph]

The question we have to ask ourselves is which history came first? There were no mention of Ching Cho as a teacher of Jeung Ah-Yim before the early 70s and the myth started from Hong Kong. Why?

Chen Yiu-Chi version is not hearsay, because it came down through the family and is recorded in writing long before 1970.

Besides Chan Yiu-Chi, there are also King Mui records and government research done on the subject. CLF does not get to be accepted as an Intangible Cultural Heritage of China without a decent history attached to it.

Where are the primary sources for Ching Cho? There are none.

[hskwarrior]

Where are the primary sources for Ching Cho? There are none.

See, you are a habitual liar EJ. The primary sources, the ONLY source with an abundant amount of information about the monk CHING CHO is found in the Hung Mun, which is MUCH MUCH bigger than your Chan Yiu Chi archives.

The Hung Mun is only an unreliable source to YOU because you are caught up behind the myths. Since you aren't a Hung Mun member, you wouldn't understand the symbology.



洪勝館 - only coming from you and people who knows nothing about CLF.
鴻勝館 - lots of info and lots from Futshan
洪勝拳 - again only your stuff.

Really? ok. i'll let you tell it since you know it all. :p


The above is the King Mui version of CLF history derived from the Chen family archive,

Now, tell me why there are so many different versions of YOUR CHAN FAMILY HISTORY again?

[hskwarrior]

洪勝館 - only coming from you and people who knows nothing about CLF.

而香港洪勝館亦被視為反清組織，受到港英當局排斥，借故陳盛「犯事」為理由，查封了香港「洪聖館」，而陳盛 被香港當局遞解出境。

lol........

[hskwarrior]

Chen Yiu-Chi version is not hearsay, because it came down through the family and is recorded in writing long before 1970.


Is it because you are the Chan Family Rep that only the Chan family can pass down historyical information within their family? If not, what are you saying?

EJ...

I find it extremely hilarious that according to YOU Chan Heung was the only one allowed to do things.........

You said Jeung Hung Sing couldn't have used 洪勝 because it would get them in major trouble. Yet, Chan Heung WAS allowed to use 洪聖.

Chan Heung was the one involved with the Hung Mun, and not Jeung Hung Sing?

Chan Heung learned from the monk Ching Cho and not Jeung Yim from Ching Cho (Fong Dai Hung)?


鴻勝館 - lots of info and lots from Futshan

What? from Chan Yiu Chi's archives? TELL ME SOMETHING......why should we believe YOUR fabricated Family archives over our own? why?

Also, Howard Choy stated Jeung Hung Sing had to change his name because it was causing tooo much heat on him and the school......what name was he using before he changed it? And, what did he change it to?

[Ben Gash]

See Frank, at least you're not now claiming a legitimate historical research stance and are now coming from a genuinely political angle. As you still seem to be struggling with what constitutes a primary source, that's probably for the best.

[extrajoseph]

I

You said Jeung Hung Sing couldn't have used 洪勝 because it would get them in major trouble. Yet, Chan Heung WAS allowed to use 洪聖.



There you go again, Frank, showing your ignorance about the Chinese language, even though the 洪 character is used in both cases, they mean completely different things when the two characters are read together.

If 洪勝 (meaning Victory to the Ming) is used in Chan Heung's time, he would have been locked up straight away, whereas 洪聖 is a name of a deity, so it is beyond the emperor's suspicion, even though they have the same sound.

[extrajoseph]

Also, Howard Choy stated Jeung Hung Sing had to change his name because it was causing tooo much heat on him and the school......what name was he using before he changed it? And, what did he change it to?

It went from 洪聖 in King Mui to “雄胜" in Jiangmen, Guangzhou and HK and then finally to “鸿胜” in Futshan, all that to avoid trouble with the politics of the time, because Jeung Ah-Yim and his students were well known as fighters and they like to fight in public and that means making troubles for themselves.

But 洪勝 is never used even though that was the intentional meaning behind the three different names with the same sound, because that would be just asking for trouble. No one was that stupid, but that does not stop you from showing your stupidity in insisting that they were that stupid.

[hskwarrior]

洪聖

is in reference to Hung Wu..........dont act like i don't know.

[hskwarrior]

洪聖

is in reference to Hung Wu..........dont act like i don't know.


If 洪勝 (meaning Victory to the Ming) is used in Chan Heung's time,

See how you're lying? 洪勝 mean HUNG VICTORY not Victory to the Ming.

Now matter how you try to twist it, you cannot win here.

[hskwarrior]

Primary source defined: Primary source is a term used in a number of disciplines to describe source material that is closest to the person, information, period, or idea being studied

So, if i have actual literature from the hung mun (not a book someone wrote about hung mun) which talks about Ching Cho, has depictions of him, rituals, and history that originates directly from the lodge the monk Ching Cho created, how is my source not a primary one?

While mine comes directly from those who founded the Hung Mun, your primary source comes from the 3rd generation disciples who didn't document the history correctly.

[Ben Gash]

If you can't figure that out from what you've just wrote, you're clearly not going to get it. Seriously Frank, do some evening classes.

[hskwarrior]

figures........:D

you got nothin...........

[hskwarrior]

The question we have to ask ourselves is which history came first?

oh, you must mean which one was written down first!!!!!

Well, since Chan Heung didn't document his forms, history, and what not but it was documented by the third generation disciples.......

I'll continue to believe in my lineage.......thank you but NO THANK YOU........

[iron_silk]

So essentially you're all fighting over a name right?

Because the only facts that remain is Chan Heung was one of Jeurng Ah Yim's Sifu.

They each of their own lines of lineage.

Now it just seems like a popularity contest.

Because Jeurng Ah Yim out lived Chan Heung right? How come no issues were made at the time? OR maybe none was necessary

Sounds like it's all in the name and whoever lay claims first or made it popular wins.

[hskwarrior]

So essentially you're all fighting over a name right?


nah, it's all over history. obviously both sides DON'T agree, so all is not good in the hood.


Because the only facts that remain is Chan Heung was one of Jeurng Ah Yim's Sifu.

Right. never denied that. no hung sing disciple ever would.

but, Jeung Hung Sing was a short time disciple of Chan Heung from 1836 to 1841. he spent more time under, and completed what he learned from the Monk Ching Cho. That can't be said about Jeung Hung Sing chan fam CLF training.


Now it just seems like a popularity contest.

Nah, all it is is one family telling their history which conflicts with the 3rd generation accound of MY lineage and them having a hissy fit.


How come no issues were made at the time?

because they all knew then they'd get busted out for telling lies. Chan Family history of the 3rd generation is where it all goes down hill in regards to my lineage.


and we (ME) are just telling our history as its passed down, and researched, and they are the one's making a big stink about stuff.

you don't see us saying "Prove chan heung learned from Choy Fook? how do we know there was a choy fook? a Chan Yuen Wu? epecially since the truth about the Chan Heung picture being fake it makes us wonder what else is fake from the Chan Family archives? How do we know Chan Heung really created the Nine Dragon Trident? ............

NO, we don't care about that sh1t cause it has nothing to do with OUR lineage.

[hskwarrior]

in regards to the HUNG SING KWOON FUT SAN history, the primary source is and should always be the Hung SING KWOON FUT SAN branch, and not a branch that wasn't by our founder. Hung Sing kwoon is the primary source for Hung Sing, and Chan Family archives would be Secondary.

[Ben Gash]

It's about Frank being one of these people who thinks that secret histories are a substitute for solid training. He thinks that if he can somehow prove that the Jeong Yim branch is special, then by extension he is special. On the larger scale it is political, the Jeong Yim line(s) push that Jeong Yim taught stuff to Chan Heung because the implication is that Jeong Yim was better than Chan Heung, and by extension 170 years down the line somehow they are better than people from the other lines :rolleyes:
Anyone who knows anything about the realities of training and fighting know's that it's a joke. The idea that Ching Cho had some "secret techniques" which allowed Jeong Yim to "rescue" an experienced martial artist of substantially greater experience is the kind of LARPist fantasy that is all too prevalent in martial arts and comes straight out of a Wuxia novel.
However, the insinuation and implied insult are not a joke, which is why people get annoyed.

[hskwarrior]

It's about Frank being one of these people who thinks that secret histories are a substitute for solid training.

Liar.


He thinks that if he can somehow prove that the Jeong Yim branch is special, then by extension he is special.

again.....Liar.


On the larger scale it is political, the Jeong Yim line(s) push that Jeong Yim taught stuff to Chan Heung because the implication is that Jeong Yim was better than Chan Heung, and by extension 170 years down the line somehow they are better than people from the other lines

where you hear anyone from the Jeung Yim lineage was better than anyone? again.....LIAR.....you're looking bitter right now. If anything its.......ah nevermind.


Anyone who knows anything about the realities of training and fighting know's that it's a joke.

what does fighting have to do with history? unless you are using a book to smash someone over the head with it?


The idea that Ching Cho had some "secret techniques" which allowed Jeong Yim to "rescue" an experienced martial artist of substantially greater experience is the kind of LARPist fantasy that is all too prevalent in martial arts and comes straight out of a Wuxia novel.

That's just DOC FAI WONG talking.....we have NEVER NEVER NEVER said anything abou secret techniques.....we never said Jeung Hung Sing EVER saved Chan Heung from anything.......not even from sex with an ugly hairy woman.....

Ben, can you please post up anything historical wise from the Fut San Hung Sing kwoon that mimics what you've just stated? if not, you're looking like a big bitter liar.

[hskwarrior]

because the implication is that Jeong Yim was better than Chan Heung

who said that exactly? what were their exact words? if you can't tell us, you're nothing but a bitter lying fool.

[Ben Gash]

The first half is how it comes across, the second half is stuf YOU have said on this forum you dolt :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

so you really have nothing to offer? :D

other than insults

[Ben Gash]

and who was the first person to start calling names Frank? Oh, that's right, it was you. AGAIN!
I really can't help it if your ADHD is so extreme that you can't remember what you said yesterday never mind last year.

[hskwarrior]

i called you a fool you called me a dolt. we're even.

[hskwarrior]

The idea that Ching Cho had some "secret techniques" which allowed Jeong Yim to "rescue" an experienced martial artist of substantially greater experience is the kind of LARPist fantasy that is all too prevalent in martial arts and comes straight out of a Wuxia novel.

i'd really appreciate you posting any Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon historical information that mimics exactly what you just said. Or where we ever said that Jeung Hung Sing saved Chan Heung......i'd really be interested in seeing that.....i'd really get in the arse of any Hung Sing disciple if i heard them spreading that nonsense.

IF you can't then where'd you get this idea from? it's not right, you're putting words in our mouths. we've never claimed the sh1t you are saying we did.

[extrajoseph]

is in reference to Hung Wu..........dont act like i don't know.

See how you're lying? 洪勝 mean HUNG VICTORY not Victory to the Ming.

Now matter how you try to twist it, you cannot win here.

Now I have to give you a lesson on Chinese culture, Frank.

The founder of the Ming Dynasty was Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 and his reign was Hong Wu 洪武, so 洪勝 do not mean HUNG VICTORY, but Victory to the reign of Hong Wu, that is to the Ming.

洪聖 is NOT a reference to Hung Wu 洪武, it is a reference to a well known southern temple deity, get your Chinese friend to translate the following for you and you might have a better idea about the name for Chan Heung's King Mui Ancestral School.

洪聖，專稱南海洪聖大王，又稱洪聖爺或赤帝。是中國南方有名的神祀。
洪聖本名洪熙，是唐代的廣利刺史，以廉潔忠貞聞名。他熟悉天文、地理、數學，曾設立氣象台來觀察天氣，為漁 民商旅減低出海的風險。後來因辛勞過度而早逝。皇帝得知他的功績，於是追封洪熙為廣利洪聖大王，在沿海地區 為他興建廟宇。後來曾被加封「洪聖」、「昭順」、「威顯」等封號。至宋代則被封為「南海洪聖廣 利王」。

[hskwarrior]

so 洪勝 do not mean HUNG VICTORY, but Victory to the reign of Hong Wu, that is to the Ming.


you poor man. :(

[hskwarrior]

明末清初，佛山独特的经济和军事上的地位以及民间尚武的风气引起各地反清志士的重视，纷纷潜入佛山发展反清 秘密组织。在石湾出现的“五顺堂”，是珠江三角洲地区最早出现的天地会组织，佛山也成为天地会的重要根据地 之一。咸丰元年（1851年），张炎在佛山创立鸿胜馆，配合太平天国革命。咸丰四年(1854年)，陈开领 导广东天地会起义，佛山粤剧名伶李文茂率粤剧艺人加入陈开起义的行列，创立了大成国。

[extrajoseph]

Did you see any reference to Hung Victory? No, it is 鴻勝 and not 洪勝.

[hskwarrior]

二、蔡李佛拳的形成
　　清代，洪、刘、蔡、李、莫被称为广东五大名拳。蔡福、李友山分别为蔡家拳、李家拳的代表人 物。
　　广东新会县京梅乡陈享(1815─1875)，自幼随族叔（少林俗家弟子）陈远护习武，后拜李友山、蔡 福为师。新会县双水镇下村（今东凌村）人张炎 (1824─1893)，自幼爱习武，曾拜李友山为师，后随陈享习武，17岁时投奔广西八排山闸建寺青草和 尚，得传以佛门内外八卦拳等技艺及医术。
　　张炎随青草和尚学艺8年,尽得真传。青草和尚便嘱张炎下山联络各方志士反清复明，并赠“鸿胜”二字予张 炎为名。“鸿”与“洪”（明开国皇帝朱元璋之年号洪武）同音，寓意反清复明事业将取得最后胜利。张炎学成归 来后，拜见陈享，将所学到的青草和尚的拳法转授给陈享，二人将蔡、李家拳和佛门拳法进行整理，创出蔡李佛拳 。由于陈、张二人由于各有侧重，故二人所传的拳法又有所不同。

[hskwarrior]

Did you see any reference to Hung Victory? No, it is 鴻勝 and not 洪勝.

nah, because they haven't approached it with the knowledge of the name given to Jeung Hung Sing. EVERYONE approached it from the NEW name. No one thought about the name given to him by Ching Cho.

But, I do have others using that name though, especially one speaking about Chui Cheung.

now, even your chan family folks say Jeung Hung Sing had to change his name to something less recognizable to the Hung Mun. Your Chan family records also say that Chan Koon Pak had to change the Hung Sing name HE was using cause Jeung Hung Sing's people were constantly in the media for their involvement with the Hung Mun.

So Jeung Hung Sing had to change his name.....hmmmmmm i wonder from what to 鴻勝 ???

Now, did you know that 鴻 has Hung Mun written all over it and actually can be traced back to a secret word connected to CHING CHO's Hung Mun lodge?

[extrajoseph]

Your source said it is the same sound but not the same word so it proved no one used the characters 洪勝 at the time, because it would be suicidal.

[hskwarrior]

Your source said it is the same sound but not the same word so it proved no one used the characters 洪勝 at the time, because it would be suicidal.

when my book comes out, i will show the connection between 洪勝 and the slogan of the Hung Mun. don't worry. i'm not.

[hskwarrior]

陈享(1815─1875)

why does it say this EJ? does fut san know something that you are not telling the public?

Oh, guess what, Alan Lee's article (of Li Iu Ling's lineage) concurs.

[extrajoseph]

I think the Chan family knows when their ancestor Chan Heung was born better than Futsan or Alan Lee. They even kept the hour he was born.

清嘉庆十一年（1806）七月初十日子时，陈享于新会县京梅村出生，父亲为陈大能。

[hskwarrior]

The existence of the Green Grass Monk could not be authenticated. However, one of the Five Ancestors of Shaolin, Fong Dai Hung, who organized the anti-Ching movement in Guangdong and Guangxi provinces, used the Buddhist name Fat Mo.

EJ, are you alan lee?


if there was indeed a Green Grass Monk, then it is likely that they were the same person. However, I do not subscribe to the hypothesis that Cheung Hoong Sing learnt more kung fu from the Green Grass Monk. Fong Dai Hung, was focusing his energies and time on organizing and spreading the anti-Ching movement not teaching kung fu on a personal level

Admits he could be legitimate, but won't let him be Jeung Hung Sing's teacher.


My interpretation was that Chan Heung Gung, a Red Pole, was liasing with his kung fu uncle Fong Dai Hung, and it was natural to send his lieutenants, including Cheung Yim, to deliver messages and obtain instructions from time to time.

If you knew what the duties of the Hung Kwun were, you might say they contradict Chan Heung's strong buddhist beliefs.


The Monk Choy Fook was a survivor of the massacre and he was a contemporary of Fong Dai Hung a.k.a. the Green Grass Monk.

is that Jeung Hung Sing's teacher? :p


One of Chan Heung Gung’s disciples, Cheung Ah Yim, an ardent revolutionary, had ambitions to succeed as head of the CLF clan. Chan Koon Bak was still in his youth at that time. After the passing of Chan Heung, Cheung Yim realizing that the leadership of CLF was not promised to him, decided to leave for Foshan (Futshan) to re-start the CLF school there that was originally established by two of Chan Heung’s earlier disciples.

Ambitions of succeeding as the HEAD OF THE CLF CLAN? really? how come i've never heard of this? i won't even comment about the rest.


Cheung Yim took on the alias Cheung Hoong Sing. The words “hoong’ in this instance means a species of wild geese which to the Chinese is a symbol of lofty achievements.

now what does the wild goose represent to the Chinese people "lofty achievements" or even "Longevity".......:p


His alias meant Cheung of the High Soaring Wild Geese Victory.

now dasss funny :D

[hskwarrior]

I think the Chan family knows when their ancestor Chan Heung was born better than Futsan or Alan Lee. They even kept the hour he was born.

清嘉庆十一年（1806）七月初十日子时，陈享于新会县京梅村出生，父亲为陈大能。

i asked you why do you think Fut San says 1815?

[hskwarrior]

They even kept the hour he was born.


who documented that? Chan Yiu Chi?

[extrajoseph]

No, it would have been written up in an ancestral tablet in the Chan Village ancestral hall and also in their Jia Po (family tree book) and on his gravestone.

[hskwarrior]

咸丰元年(1851年)，张炎在佛山开设鸿胜馆。鸿胜蔡李佛派的礼桩诗曰：“大鹏展翼反天手，魁星踢斗清名 留，拱拜五湖复四海，日月拱照万世流”。［3］内含“反清复明”四字。可见鸿胜馆从创办时起，就把推翻清朝 统治作为宗旨。

[hskwarrior]

will you answer my question.....

why does fut san say 1815?

[extrajoseph]

So you can see, Chan Heung taught Jeung Ah-Yim well, always keep in mind “反清复明”.

[hskwarrior]

“同治三年（1864年）……六月十五日，曾国藩、国荃昆仲破南京，追捕余党。张炎星夜乘舟抵京 梅乡，

so this must be when Jeung Hung Sing returned to meet up with Chan Heung huh?

[hskwarrior]

come on now, where does it say chan heung taught him that? how do you Jeung Hung Sing didn't teach that to Chan Heung?

[extrajoseph]

will you answer my question.....

why does fut san say 1815?

Because they want to make Jeung Ah-Yim look older and more of a contemporary of Chan Heung rather than just one of his disciples, so Jeung Ah-Yim can be "promoted" as the co-founder, instead the head of the Futsan branch.

[hskwarrior]

此外，鸿胜馆的平拳、长拳，含有“太平天国，长安万年”之意，由此可见蔡李佛拳与太平天国革命的关系。可以 说，蔡李佛拳在太平天国革命中得到了发展和完善。现在，鸿胜馆还保留了很多两军对阵时的器械技 击术。

[hskwarrior]

Because they want to make Jeung Ah-Yim look older and more of a contemporary of Chan Heung rather than just one of his disciples, so Jeung Ah-Yim can be "promoted" as the co-founder, instead the head of the Futsan branch.

and where do you get this idea from? did someone tell you this was going to happen? or is this just your assumption?

[extrajoseph]

come on now, where does it say chan heung taught him that? how do you Jeung Hung Sing didn't teach that to Chan Heung?

Not only Jeung Ah-Yim co-founded CLF, he now taught Chan Heung CLF. Give us a break Frank!:mad:

[hskwarrior]

Not only Jeung Ah-Yim co-founded CLF, he now taught Chan Heung CLF. Give us a break Frank!

it was a harmless tongue in cheek question........hahahahahaha ........that was easy......and i didn't even mean for you to get all red faced!!!!!

hhahahahahahahahahahahaha

yeah i bet Jeung Hung Sing taught chan heung lots of things.....lol

[extrajoseph]

and where do you get this idea from? did someone tell you this was going to happen? or is this just your assumption?

The present Futsan school only come back a few years ago under new management and made up the dates, whereas Chan Heung's history has always been the same, so you can see what went on very easily. It is not an assumption, it is an observation.

[hskwarrior]

The present Futsan school only come back a few years ago under new management

Chan Ngau Sing's bloodline still exists in Fut San and they are all still Hung Sing disciples. Elders like He Xiang, Tong Sek, Chan Ngau Sing, Lau Bun, have all passed down the history of our branch. there isn't one Hung Sing branch that doesn't teach the basic history of Jeung Hung Sing.....

You seem to think that only the chan family can pass things down through their lineage......hmmmmm i wonder why?:confused:

[hskwarrior]

whereas Chan Heung's history has always been the same

really? do you wanna go there? :confused: :D :eek:

[extrajoseph]

Chan Ngau Sing's bloodline still exists in Fut San and they are all still Hung Sing disciples. Elders like He Xiang, Tong Sek, Chan Ngau Sing, Lau Bun, have all passed down the history of our branch. there isn't one Hung Sing branch that doesn't teach the basic history of Jeung Hung Sing.....

You seem to think that only the chan family can pass things down through their lineage......hmmmmm i wonder why?:confused:

Then please show us some primary sources regarding Ching Cho and how Jeung Ah-Yim co-founded CLF and how his CLF is different to Chan Heung's.

[hskwarrior]

Then please show us some primary sources regarding Ching Cho and how Jeung Ah-Yim co-founded CLF and how his CLF is different to Chan Heung's.

are you upset? do you need a time out?

I got enough on Ching Cho that i never have to worry about you again EJ.....EVER.

And not only is it visibly entirely different, it's different in the feel as well. My student was a student of the White Dragon DFW school, he too thought it was the same until he got a better understanding of our Jeung Hung Sing "HUNG SING KUEN"

Proof enough. but.....if you wish.....

your hoi jong is entirely different that HSK. What's in it is entirely different. your bow is entirely different. you don't have the same 'FAN QING FU MING' that we do, but Buk Sing does. you don't have to same grouping of closings as we do. How you apply your gung fu is entirely different that HSK.

so, aside from the basic seeds, we are different in look, style, mechanics, history, forms wise, essence, the list goes on.

[extrajoseph]

So you have nothing on Ching Cho or how Jeung Ah-Yim co-founded CLF or how his CLF is different to Chan Heung's.

[hskwarrior]

Then please show us some primary sources regarding Ching Cho

show me your primary source......you said you saw the documentation of the Green Grass Monk in Chan Family archives.

[hskwarrior]

So you have nothing on Ching Cho or how Jeung Ah-Yim co-founded CLF or how his CLF is different to Chan Heung's.

no..... i don't. :p;):D

[hskwarrior]

So you have nothing on Ching Cho

Actually, I got lots on the monk Ching Cho, thanks to the HUNG MUN, and a large group of authors who were deeply interested in researching the Hung Mun which some research goes back to no less that 65 years after the Hung Mun was established.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlVX-uCJkGM

there, check it out joseph.......that whole entire video is the legacy left behind by the monk Ching Cho.

at 2:16 seconds you can see a historical photo of Dr. Sun Yat Sen with the San Francisco Hung Mun.

at 2:58 seconds you will see China's Premier Zhou Enlai.....the very one who instructed Chen Yilin to include CHING CHO in our history.

[hskwarrior]

佛山台报道：今天是全国第一个“全民健身日”，佛山在岭南明珠体育馆举办体育嘉年华。

今天二千多个演员齐集岭南明珠体育馆，他们来自佛山的小学和十多个民间体育团体，包括市武术文艺协会、木兰 拳会、蔡李佛馆、精武会、洪胜馆等，进行灯笼舞、木兰扇、柔力球、武术操等7大节目。

[hskwarrior]

与广州的洪胜馆素有交往，互彰声名

or

来源：中华崔氏网 www.chinacui.com 崔氏家谱、族谱，寻根问祖　　崔章又叫高大章，他曾经在洪胜蔡李佛孔德光门下，后来曾追随南海西樵人称盲蛇 的谢蛇学习棍法，尽得八卦棍真传，当时，他在国内武术届享有盛名。

[iron_silk]

i asked you why do you think Fut San says 1815?

I thought you said that Fut-San doesn't even mention Chan Heung?

[hskwarrior]

Chan who? :D

[iron_silk]

So you have nothing on Ching Cho or how Jeung Ah-Yim co-founded CLF or how his CLF is different to Chan Heung's.

I think Frank and his group is upset that Chan Heung named his system CLF, which he stole from his student Jeung Ah-Yim because he was more well known.

Or

They are upset that Chan Heung formed his CLF system with kung fu passed on from Green Grass Monk by Jeung Ah-Yim to Chan Heung, and never gave credit to Jeung Ah-Yim right?

[iron_silk]

Chan who? :D

See...now we have settled one of the topics already! :cool:

Fut San has no records on Chan Heung.

[hskwarrior]

I think Frank and his group is upset that Chan Heung named his system CLF, which he stole from his student Jeung Ah-Yim because he was more well known.

Or

They are upset that Chan Heung formed his CLF system with kung fu passed on from Green Grass Monk by Jeung Ah-Yim to Chan Heung, and never gave credit to Jeung Ah-Yim right?

you are entitled to you opininion and i respect that. :D

but wait, did it take long for you to come up with that?

[hskwarrior]

Fut San has no records on Chan Heung.

have we ever claimed to? :D

[iron_silk]

have we ever claimed to? :D

Nice! ;)


So Chan Heung is born 1806 then!

[hskwarrior]

Chan Heung formed his CLF system with kung fu passed on from Green Grass Monk by Jeung Ah-Yim to Chan Heung, and never gave credit to Jeung Ah-Yim right?

kinda right. See, knowing that Jeung Hung Sing returned to Chan Heung around 1864 and shared what he learned from monk Ching Cho says he had something to do with the further development of CLF.

But, as we contend, Chan Heung created CLF the way he wanted to.......and Jeung Hung Sing did the same based off of the the gung fu he learned from his three teachers.

[iron_silk]

kinda right. See, knowing that Jeung Hung Sing returned to Chan Heung around 1864 and shared what he learned from monk Ching Cho says he had something to do with the further development of CLF.

But, as we contend, Chan Heung created CLF the way he wanted to.......and Jeung Hung Sing did the same based off of the the gung fu he learned from his three teachers.


Couldn't we just say that they each developed their system the way they wanted and based on their own experience? I mean there are clearly similarities and differences.

But other than having a "similar" CLF name and one being an influence on the other....can't we just say they are separate then?

I mean Jeung Yim system is diverged from the Chan Heung the earliest...isn't it ok to just call it their own and we all just get along?

[hskwarrior]

So Chan Heung is born 1806 then!

IDK.....i'm curious to where the 1815 DATE came from. partly because a chan family disciple published a history unknowingly putting Chan Heung's birth year at 1815 too.

[hskwarrior]

Couldn't we just say that they each developed their system the way they wanted and based on their own experience? I mean there are clearly similarities and differences.


We could live in perfect harmony as long as both sides agree to allow each branch to have their history. if people would keep quiet and not superimpose Chan Heung over my lineage, i won't theirs.


can't we just say they are separate then?

we do. and both branches developed things the other did not have.


I mean Jeung Yim system is diverged from the Chan Heung the earliest.

Right. Even DFW says Jeung Hung Sing represents the Early Chan Heung material.....Chan Koon Pak the middle.....and chan yiu chi the end.

So, my question in regards to that then is if jeung yim reps the early stages of CLF, then why is he placed at the end of it?

[hskwarrior]

Couldn't we just say that they each developed their system the way they wanted and based on their own experience?

That's extremely fair. because Jeung Hung Sing was there during the part of CLF's development where the forms were not documented yet. which can explain why we don't practice any chan family forms.

another interesting question is in the first five years of CLF's establishment, what did it really look like? How much influence of Lee Yau San's, and Choy Fook's respective systems were prevalent prior to the further development of CLF?

[extrajoseph]

We could live in perfect harmony as long as both sides agree to allow each branch to have their history. if people would keep quiet and not superimpose Chan Heung over my lineage, i won't theirs.

King Mui is not a branch, it is the root and the trunk, and that is why it is called "the ancestral school". If you want to use the name Hung Sing CLF then Chan Heung comes into it because he was the founder of the system. If you think Jeung Ah-Yim was better and had his own teachers and his own system then call it another name and not superimpose your history onto others.


we do. and both branches developed things the other did not have.

What do you have the others don't?


Right. Even DFW says Jeung Hung Sing represents the Early Chan Heung material.....Chan Koon Pak the middle.....and chan yiu chi the end.
So, my question in regards to that then is if jeung yim reps the early stages of CLF, then why is he placed at the end of it?

He was not placed at the end of anything, he took the Futsan branch to a new height and everyone acknowledged that, but he did not co-founded CLF and there was no Ching Cho to make your techniques different to others. If that is the case, then don't call what you do CLF. You can always make up your own system with your own history and your own name.

[extrajoseph]

That's extremely fair. because Jeung Hung Sing was there during the part of CLF's development where the forms were not documented yet. which can explain why we don't practice any chan family forms.

Not everyone practices the Chan family form but they acknowledge Chan Heung as the founder of the system and give him the respect he deserved. There is no doubt Jeung Ah-Yim helped to develop CLF in the early stages just like his Sihangdi would have done the same, but none of them, and that included Jeung Ah-Yim, claimed that they have co-founded the system.


another interesting question is in the first five years of CLF's establishment, what did it really look like? How much influence of Lee Yau San's, and Choy Fook's respective systems were prevalent prior to the further development of CLF?

Most developments went from the more simple to the more complex, from the more recent to the more distant past, so we can assume in the first five years of CLF's establishment, the forms would have beens shorter, less of them and more repetitive in nature and because Chan Heung just came back from Lawfoshan, he would have been more influenced by Choy Fook than Lee Yau Shan.

[hskwarrior]

If you think Jeung Ah-Yim was better and had his own teachers and his own system then call it another name and not superimpose your history onto others.

Bitter Bobby!!!!


What do you have the others don't?

well.......buk sing has lin wan chop choy.......or are you going to say that Chan Heung developed that?

Fung Bai Lo was created by Kwan Mun Keng but Chan Family claim it as their form.

We got Ga Ji Kuen which you don't have.

the same way we do not practice chan family CLF.......you don't have OUR cheung kuen, ping kuen, kau da, sup ji, our dummy forms, weapons forms and so on.......all of that was developed by our lineage.



He was not placed at the end of anything, he took the Futsan branch to a new height

you are a habitual liar. You keep trying to tell us that Jeung Hung Sing was a last batch disciple of Chan Heung. But you for some reason fail....miserably at overlooking the FACT that Jeung Hung Sing established HIS hung sing kwoon in Fut San in 1851.


he took the Futsan branch to a new height

Jeung Hung Sing founded the Hung Sing Kwoon in Fut San, and he based his fighting method off of his own 3 teachers. His school isn't a branch either. we just don't teach or practice what you do, at all.


If you think Jeung Ah-Yim was better

that sounds very insecure coming from you EJ, becasue neither you nor ben gash or any other forum goer here can post anything where we said we thought we were better than anyone or anything.



there was no Ching Cho to make your techniques different to others.

but you said yourself that you saw the archives of the Chan Clan that mentioned choy fook's buddhist name was Ching Cho.......:confused: man you lie too much.


Not everyone practices the Chan family form but they acknowledge Chan Heung as the founder of the system

Right, he IS the founder of Chan Family CLF. Just not MY founder of MY lineage. you lineage is of Chan Yuan Wu, Lee Yau San, and Choy Fook, while mine is Lee Yau San, Chan Heung and Ching Cho.

again, from YOUR perspective.......why doesn't Hung Sing CLF have any chan family forms?


There is no doubt Jeung Ah-Yim helped to develop CLF in the early stages

That is contradictory for you since you say the first mention of Jeung Hung Sing is that Chan Heung sent him to Fut San in 1867 when CLF was established in 1836.....thats 31 years later.......but jeung Hung Sing opened the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon in 1851.

and you wonder why i never believe a word you say :p


Most developments went from the more simple to the more complex

:rolleyes: obviously


the forms would have beens shorter, less of them and more repetitive in nature and because Chan Heung just came back from Lawfoshan, he would have been more influenced by Choy Fook than Lee Yau Shan.

I can live with that. however, Chan Heung didn't create ALL of the CLF forms.....other disciples did, and they were shared amongst the family in order for students to pick up newer forms.

[extrajoseph]

You can create as many forms as you like but the basic characters and principles, the "flavor" and the "seeds", if you like, were created by Chan Heung and Jeung Ah-Yim was one of his disciples. You tried to turn Jeung Ah-Yim into a Fan Guek Jai and you are doing him a disservice while at the same time trying to rub us of our own heritage.


Right, he IS the founder of Chan Family CLF. Just not MY founder of MY lineage. you lineage is of Chan Yuan Wu, Lee Yau San, and Choy Fook, while mine is Lee Yau San, Chan Heung and Ching Cho.

OK then, call what you do Lee Chan Ching then, but don't call it Choy Lee Fut, because CLF stands for Choy Fook, Lee Yuan Shan and Chan Yuan Wu, who all have their root in the Shaolin Temple (Fut).

[hskwarrior]

were created by Chan Heung and Jeung Ah-Yim was one of his disciples

but chan heung wasn't Jeung Ah Yim's ONLY Sifu.......especially since Jeung Hung Sing only trained with Chan Heung for 5 years in the early stages of CLF. the rest of the time was spent under Ching Cho.


the "flavor" and the "seeds",

seeds maybe......flavor.......HA!!!! NO HUNG SING PERSON HAS CHAN FAMILY FLAVOR anywhere in the world.


Fan Guek Jai

nah, i think that's a title the General Dave lacey placed on you.


you are doing him a disservice while at the same time trying to rub us of our own heritage.

nah, that just you trying keep the spot light completely on Chan Heung.

[Sunyang]

You can create as many forms as you like but the basic characters and principles, the "flavor" and the "seeds", if you like, were created by Chan Heung...

I agree with you Joseph, I read all your post about Choy Lay Fut and I think you know a lot of interesting details about this...can you take part in the two thread that I opened about old manuscript and Choy Lay Fut forms?
Thank you in advance!!

SY

[hskwarrior]

OK then, call what you do Lee Chan Ching then, but don't call it Choy Lee Fut, because CLF stands for Choy Fook, Lee Yuan Shan and Chan Yuan Wu, who all have their root in the Shaolin Temple (Fut).

oh don't worry, my sifu now calls what we teach "HUNG SING KUEN" he wants nothing to do with the chan family after receiving so much disrespect from that lineage.

[extrajoseph]

Nothing to do with the Chan famil is fine, go and promote your "HUNG SING KUEN", just don't try to add CLF before or after it.

[hskwarrior]

Nothing to do with the Chan famil is fine, go and promote your "HUNG SING KUEN", just don't try to add CLF before or after it.

Right......Fut San Hung Sing NEVER represented the Chan Family line.

The fact that Jeung Hung Sing took down the Chan Family Hung Sing to replace it with his own is very indicative to what Jeung Hung Sing was doing.

[hskwarrior]

just don't try to add CLF before or after it

or what?

Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.....

Hung Sing Kuen (HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT)

Still, nothing to do with Chan Family CLF.

[Ben Gash]

or what?

Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.....

Hung Sing Kuen (HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT)

Still, nothing to do with Chan Family CLF.

Sometimes your lack of insight, understanding and self awareness just staggers me :eek:

[hskwarrior]

HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT

And there's nothing you can do about it.

[hskwarrior]

Sometimes your lack of insight, understanding and self awareness just staggers me

man, you are really pushy. No one was speaking to you. cause it's a conversation between me and joseph, and you are extremely arrogant to think i would actually care what you have to say.

[hskwarrior]

i see you're about to post....

how much you wanna bet it's nothing positive!!!!!!

[Ben Gash]

How many times Frank? It's a PUBLIC DISCUSSION FORUM. If you want a private discussion with Joseph, don't have it here.
Arrogant? LOL. Pot/kettle much?
You clearly care a lot about what I say Frank, as you feel the need to write 5 incoherent stream of consciousness style ranting posts in response to my every one :rolleyes:

[Ben Gash]

I've tried being constructive Frank, all that happens is 2 hours later you've reverted to type and you're ranting away and abusing people again.

[hskwarrior]

How many times Frank? It's a PUBLIC DISCUSSION FORUM. If you want a private discussion with Joseph, don't have it here.
Arrogant? LOL. Pot/kettle much?
You clearly care a lot about what I say Frank, as you feel the need to right 5 incoherent stream of consciousness style ranting posts in response to my every one

see, your arrogance astounds me.....by bounds and leaps :p

[hskwarrior]

I've tried being constructive Frank, all that happens is 2 hours later you've reverted to type and your ranting away and abusing people again.
__________________

where was i when you were being CONSTUCTIVE over being DESTRUCTIVE?

[hskwarrior]

abusing people again

abusing people? hahahahahahahaha

dude, what are you smoking? Ching Cho? can i have some?

[Ben Gash]

Your problem in this regard Frank is that you somehow view basic critical analysis as "tearing it apart and looking for micro-fibres". Questionning you is not attacking you. Asking for evidence is not attacking you. It is reasonable enquiry.
Like I say, I try to do it in a level civil manner, and all I get is your increasingly hostile ranting until it reaches the point where you've made yourself look so bad you have to delete the thread :rolleyes:
So forgive me if I'd rather just cut to the chase now.
You clearly have no interest in actually discussing anything you post here, it's just an opportunity for you to push your "Hung Sing is special" agenda, and live out your historian fantasy, now with added wannabe Chinese gangster appeal.
As you have insulted pretty much every major teacher of King Mui sourced CLF over the years, I really don't think you're in any position to start complaining about people's manners.

[hskwarrior]

Questionning you is not attacking you.

it's your approach and how you question me that causes me to show you no respect. I could care less about being questioned.


I try to do it in a level civil manner

somehow it gets lost in translation......:rolleyes:


hostile ranting until it reaches the point where you've made yourself look so bad you have to delete the thread

see how you're twisted. this time around i've taken the NON AGGRESSIVE role, and you are on the attack. it's been noticed and recognized. i'm not worried if you deny it, others see it. validated.


You clearly have no interest in actually discussing anything you post here,

Clearly. Not with you.


it's just an opportunity for you to push your "Hung Sing is special" agenda,

again, please post where anyone from hung sing said we're special? But, i know you won't. :rolleyes: or should i say can't? however, i seem to recall it was you who bragged about being the largest CLF school blah blah blah......as if that makes you SPECIAL :rolleyes:


now with added wannabe Chinese gangster appeal

are you jealous? do you want to hang out with gangsters? and LMAO....wannabe CHINESE? i'd expect that from YOU!!!!! PREEEEEEE DIK'T ALBE


As you have insulted pretty much every major teacher of King Mui sourced CLF over the years, I really don't think you're in any position to start complaining about people's manners.

I don't know any KING MUI sifu's.........sorry sucka. and with the chan family disrespect we receive.......SO WHAT!!

[Ben Gash]

Your idea of non-aggressive leaves a lot to be desired :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Your idea of non-aggressive leaves a lot to be desired

can you provide me with your credentials to make that assessment? what is the provenance of your claim :rolleyes::p

[Ben Gash]

it's your approach and how you question me that causes me to show you no respect. I could care less about being questioned.



somehow it gets lost in translation......:rolleyes:



see how you're twisted. this time around i've taken the NON AGGRESSIVE role, and you are on the attack. it's been noticed and recognized. i'm not worried if you deny it, others see it. validated.



Clearly. Not with you.



again, please post where anyone from hung sing said we're special? But, i know you won't. :rolleyes: or should i say can't? however, i seem to recall it was you who bragged about being the largest CLF school blah blah blah......as if that makes you SPECIAL :rolleyes:



are you jealous? do you want to hang out with gangsters? and LMAO....wannabe CHINESE? i'd expect that from YOU!!!!! PREEEEEEE DIK'T ALBE



I don't know any KING MUI sifu's.........sorry sucka. and with the chan family disrespect we receive.......SO WHAT!!

I typically start in a reasonable fashion (unless you've been obnoxious from the start) but then you start acting like your usual self again and it all goes downhill from there. Really though Frank, maybe try and think about what I could be saying. There are lines I'm not crossing here.
As I said right at the start of this nonsensical debacle (in one of the threads you deleted), if you can't produce credible evidence to support your story (and heaven knows we've told you time and again what that entails) then you can't abuse people for not believing it.
If you don't believe the history presented in the Chan family records, that's fine. I will be happy to discuss any weak points (provided your evidence for weakness isn't basically "my mommy said"). No-one really cares if you don't believe them, it's your choice.
You however have repeatedly shown that this is not a 2 way street, so as I've said before, where exactly does that leave us? If I try and interect with you as a reasonable intelligent human being I know that as soon as I say anything you disagree with you're going to start throwing things. So often it's simpler just to deal with you as if you were just an aggressive troll, because your behaviour patterns fit into that mould much better.

[Ben Gash]

Credentials? 3 years of interpersonal skills and psychology study at university.
Provenance doesn't apply as we're not talking about something historical :rolleyes:

[extrajoseph]

That is the best cut to the chase I have ever seen on Frank:

You clearly have no interest in actually discussing anything you post here, it's just an opportunity for you to push your "Hung Sing is special" agenda, and live out your historian fantasy, now with added wannabe Chinese gangster appeal.

[hskwarrior]

If you don't believe the history presented in the Chan family records, that's fine.

I don't have to. :rolleyes:

I have my own. and if you want to start with proof, provenance, evidence, and blah blah blah.......look in the mirror and start over.

[Ben Gash]

I'm not abusing you for not believing them. I'm also not attempting to pass off fairytale as fact.

[hskwarrior]

You clearly have no interest in actually discussing anything you post here, it's just an opportunity for you to push your "Hung Sing is special" agenda, and live out your historian fantasy, now with added wannabe Chinese gangster appeal.


Well, neither YOU nor BEN have proven your theory!!!!!!! I've asked you to post anything from any HUNG SING DISCIPLE that says we think we're special!!!!!!

BUT YOU GOT NOTHING!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

I'm not abusing you for not believing them. I'm also not attempting to pass off fairytale as fact.

a fairy tale is Chan Heung killed a full grown man eating tiger with razor sharp claws that would maim the sh1t out of him, and he walking away without a scratch after killing it with his bare hands.....oh wait was it a clothes hanger?

Now that's a fairytale i'm willing to watch!!!!!

[Ben Gash]

It's the subtext to everything you say :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

i knnnnnooooowwwwwwww :D

[hskwarrior]

But ben,

how long will it take for you to post the comments of Hung Sing people claiming to be better, special, and special techniques, saving Chan Heung...and all that?

I don't have all day.

[Ben Gash]

a fairy tale is Chan Heung killed a full grown man eating tiger with razor sharp claws that would maim the sh1t out of him, and he walking away without a scratch after killing it with his bare hands.....oh wait was it a clothes hanger?

Now that's a fairytale i'm willing to watch!!!!!

It would appear that Chan Heung probably did kill a tiger at some point (people remember the skin being in the family home, but it was destroyed during the cultural revolution), however the tale undoubtedly grew over the years. As we keep trying to tell you Frank, southern Chinese creation stories tend to incorporate elements from Wuxia fiction to flesh them out. In this case, killing a tiger with your bare hands bears a striking resemblance to an event in Outlaws of the Marsh.

[hskwarrior]

It would appear that Chan Heung probably did kill a tiger at some point


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

[Ben Gash]

But ben,

how long will it take for you to post the comments of Hung Sing people claiming to be better, special, and special techniques, saving Chan Heung...and all that?

I don't have all day.

How many times? The saving Chan heung story was posted HERE by YOU 3-4 years ago :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

but it was destroyed during the cultural revolution

Oh i thought THAT was stolen? It was destroyed in the revolution? ohhhhh i seee:rolleyes:

[Ben Gash]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

If you couched your language in such a manner Frank, you might find you put people's backs up a bit less often ;)

[hskwarrior]

How many times? The saving Chan heung story was posted HERE by YOU 3-4 years ago

can you post it? or do we have to RELY ON YOUR ORAL account?

[hskwarrior]

If you couched your language in such a manner Frank, you might find you put people's backs up a bit less often

Mannnn, i was just thinkin the same thing about YOU!!!!!

whaddacoinkydink!!!!

[bawang]

the style that can defeat gracie ju jitsu is the real choi lei fut

[Ben Gash]

can you post it? or do we have to RELY ON YOUR ORAL account?

Yes, because due to your habit of writing 5 posts when one would do, it's so efficient to search through your old posts. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Yes, because due to your habit of writing 5 posts when one would do, it's so efficient to search through your old posts.

i just wanna make sure you see it.....and not over look it.

[hskwarrior]

it's so efficient to search through your old posts.

so go ahead and post where I or anyone from Hung Sing literally said "WE'RE SPECIAL, or WE'RE BETTER"........

Oh, don't post your assumptions, insinuations, or accusations......i wanna see where i or we said we're better because of Jeung Hung Sing.......

i'm still waiting.

[CLFNole]

What does "tightened it up" imply? :p

The thing I would question since you state Jeong Yim learned Chan Heung's early CLF is why is it that the hung sing seems to lack the more active footwork seen from the Chan Hueng side? Not that this makes any side better just an observation. Maybe the footwork came after Chan Heung?

[extrajoseph]

"so go ahead and post where I or anyone from Hung Sing literally said "WE'RE SPECIAL, or WE'RE BETTER"........"

How about this from your post yesterday:

There are going to do one on Jeung Hung Sing......because in Fut San, he was one of southern China's Greatest fighters. His school was the largest and most structured of its kind. And he has an incredible history of involvement in the Hung Mun. so, i'm more interested in what they're going to do on Jeung Hung Sing.

[hskwarrior]

What does "tightened it up" imply?

You should know lance.


There are going to do one on Jeung Hung Sing......because in Fut San, he was one of southern China's Greatest fighters.

OMG....how is that insulting Chan Heung? we're not even talking about him??!?!?! Read the Yuen kay Say Wing Chun book, it also mentions one of souther China's greatest fighters was Jeung Hung Sing.


His school was the largest and most structured of its kind.

again.....i'm speaking about Jeung Hung Sing, not Chan Heung.


And he has an incredible history of involvement in the Hung Mun. so, i'm more interested in what they're going to do on Jeung Hung Sing.

Now that is just beginning to sound real jealous that chan heung didn't get that type of recognition. I know, you really feel Chan Heung deserves all and any credit for others achievements.

AND I STILL DON'T SEE WHERE ANYONE SAID THEY WERE BETTER THAN THE CHAN FAMILY AT ALL

[hskwarrior]

How about this from your post yesterday:

There are going to do one on Jeung Hung Sing......because in Fut San, he was one of southern China's Greatest fighters. His school was the largest and most structured of its kind. And he has an incredible history of involvement in the Hung Mun. so, i'm more interested in what they're going to do on Jeung Hung Sing.

omg......YOU'RE TRULY TWISTED WITH ANGER AND JEALOUSY!!!!!

I WAS TALKING ABOUT WHY THEY WOULD MAKE A MOVIE ABOUT JEUNG HUNG SING!!!!!


because in Fut San,

chan heung was in king mui so how can you extract that we're saying we're better from that?

[extrajoseph]

Frank,
Your lack of logical thinking staggers me.
Truly and absolutely!:eek:

[CLFNole]

What about the answer to the 2nd part of my question regarding footwork?

[hskwarrior]

Frank,
Your lack of logical thinking staggers me.
Truly and absolutely!

yeah but you're transparent!!!! extremely!

[extrajoseph]

If I am transparent then you have no clothes on!:eek:

[hskwarrior]

an you are a hum sup low!!!!!

why are you thinking about me with my clothes off joseph?

[CLFNole]

"Haam sup lo" - don't think hum carries the same meaning. :D

But all men are a"haam sup"... or so my wife tells me.

[hskwarrior]

"Haam sup lo" - don't think hum carries the same meaning.

i REALLY THINKS IT'S A JOKE WHEN WHITE GUYS TRY TO CORRECT SOMEONE IN REGARDS TO CHINESE......IF YOU THINK I'M ALONE.......YOU BETTER ASK SOMEBODY!!!

[CLFNole]

i REALLY THINKS IT'S A JOKE WHEN WHITE GUYS TRY TO CORRECT SOMEONE IN REGARDS TO CHINESE......IF YOU THINK I'M ALONE.......YOU BETTER ASK SOMEBODY!!!

This in and of itself is a funny (pot/kettle)statement since you always want to correct XJ on the meaning of chinese characters remember you are white also. IT WAS A JOKE FRANK.

[Mano Mano]

This in and of itself is a funny (pot/kettle)statement since you always want to correct XJ on the meaning of chinese characters remember you are white also. IT WAS A JOKE FRANK.

you beat me to it

[hskwarrior]

TO A CERTAIN EXTENT YOU'RE RIGHT....

Hahahah i've never tried to correct anyone's chinese.....i know better. I ain't chinese.


meaning of chinese characters

DISPUTING THE MEANING AND BEING A SPELLING NAZI OVER CHINESE CHARACTER SPELLINGS IS DIFFERENT.

SEE, I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, AND JOSEPH IS TRYING TO CLOUD SH1T.

[CLFNole]

Hahahah i've never tried to correct anyone's chinese.....i know better. I ain't chinese.

You are kidding right?

[hskwarrior]

Yeah, i am.....

But, its an issue with me and joseph on a character.......

You are telling me how to spell something you spelling nazi! :d

[CLFNole]

Yeah but you are arguing about characters of a language you can't speak, read or write. I think most people are going to side with the full-blooded chinese guy, don't you?

[hskwarrior]

Yeah but you are arguing about characters of a language you can't speak, read or write.

I know about those characters, what they mean, how to read them, symbology behind them. that doesn't make me a scholar, but knowing a word or two doesn't make me incompetent either.

its just two characters....hung victory. and if you know the chinese language, as i know your wife will admit, synonyms for things are not uncommonly found within the chinese language. especially with the Hung Mun since they try to hide the true meaning from non Hung Mun members, namely the Qing.

it's not too hard getting to know the two characters.


I think most people are going to side with the full-blooded chinese guy, don't you?

of course. thats a given. but what if i got a college professor who helps me translate my chinese characters? Or, Hung Mun members who speak, read, and understand both chinese and english?

but the one thing i won't do.......is say "hey, its not spelled that way, or hey its not pronounced that way." i just couldn't do it.


still, synonym's are common in any language, or culture. the slogan on the Hung Mun banner is the same as "the guy who won't shut up".......you know they're talking about me, but it isn't said so directly. So, in regards to the HUNG VICTORY......there is a saying in chinese on that banner that basically says "HUNG VICTORY" and how do you say Hung Victory? HUNG SING.

[extrajoseph]

On the banner you showed us it says Hung Shun 洪順 and not Hung Sing 洪勝.

[extrajoseph]

So what has that got to do with Jeung Ah-Yim, Ching Cho and Hung Sing 鴻勝?

[hskwarrior]

So what has that got to do with Jeung Ah-Yim, Ching Cho and Hung Sing 鴻勝?

so what does what have to do with what?

[extrajoseph]

so what does what have to do with what?

You are kidding, right?

[hskwarrior]

So what has that got to do with Jeung Ah-Yim, Ching Cho and Hung Sing 鴻勝?


So what has that got to do with

what is "THAT" that you're referring to?


now, out of all 5 Ancestors, Ching Cho's (Fong Dai Hung) Hung Shun Tong is the only Hung Mun lodge appropriated with the word "HUNG" or " 洪" no other Hung Mun lodge was allowed to use that word on their lodge.
the about is just a little bit of info. that's all.

[extrajoseph]

what is "THAT" that you're referring to?


THAT referred to how do you connect up your Hung Mun research with your Futsan, Ching Cho and co-founder of CLF claims.

[hskwarrior]

thats not what you asked!

[hskwarrior]

very carefully!!!

[extrajoseph]

If you know what I asked, why ask?

[hskwarrior]

to keep you on your toes old man :p

[extrajoseph]

...and you on the toe of your third leg. Watch out rigor mortis is going to set in!:D

[hskwarrior]

that's why i have a deflate valve!!!! :D

[extrajoseph]

Now we know why the air is not so fresh around here.;)

[hskwarrior]

no, i just Fong Paid! not Fong Dai Paid either! but i am HUNG!!!

and proud of it too!

[extrajoseph]

Hung and Sang, what a gay man you are Frank.

[hskwarrior]

that doesn't mean i like Gay May bow's!!!!!

[extrajoseph]

No, but it implies!:cool:

[hskwarrior]

sorry, i'm too cavemannish to be that way......unga bunga...

[extrajoseph]

You said it, I didn't!

[hskwarrior]

The thing I would question since you state Jeong Yim learned Chan Heung's early CLF is why is it that the hung sing seems to lack the more active footwork seen from the Chan Hueng side?

I wouldn't say lacking. I would say that your lineage and other Chan Family lineage has the Rat stepping while we have snake stepping. That is something very common amongst all Hung sing branches. And, Jeung Hung Sing still had what he learned from Ching Cho....so it's possible the footwork came from there.

[extrajoseph]

Could also be caused by the nimbleness of your mind. You know the feet are connected to the head.;)

[hskwarrior]

feet bone connected to the head bone......head bone connected to the knee bone.....knee bone connected to the kneck bone!