Northern Styles

[gummi]

Any experience with Temple of Five Tigers style?
Also wondering about forms called Fighting Dragon and Lung?

[Crushing Step]

Welcome gummi, congrats on your first post.

What prompted the question? Do you have someone who says they studied these styles, or is it a local school in your area?

[gummi]

Educating myself...expanding my knowledge base...curiosity...

'Yes' to both of your questions.

Are you familar with those forms and that style?

[TenTigers]

They sound pretty bogus, I mean, suspect..
Is there a link to the school that teaches this?

[gummi]

No, no link. It's super-secret-ancient-hidden-to-Western-eyes...
Small "boutique" class.
I just wondered if anyone had information about the forms. Are you saying there is no "Temple of Five Tigers" lineage/style/system?

[B-Rad]

Never heard of that particular group. Of course there are many offshoots of more mainstream systems given different names for various reasons. Obviously if someone is teaching this it exists, but there's no way to say exactly what it is without more info :-P "Lung" for example is just Chinese for "Dragon". So it's kind of weird to call a form "Fighting Dragon" in English, and then have another one just called "Lung".

[Crushing Step]

Your reply is what I expected.

Listen, if there is a super secret kung fu that is unknown to the west, then maybe you won't find out about it on the internet.

I have personally never heard of any of the styles you mentioned, and my google fu produces nothing. I won't say it's bunk without seeing it in person, however. It's not unheard of to have a family style.

But then again, it could be some guy who watches a lot of videos and made something up. We're not really going to get down to the bottom of this by name alone. I might respectfully ask for a syllabus of some kind. What are some names of exercises, drills, and forms? Take a class, see how you like it, and come back with that kind of info, and we may be able to make a more informed assessment.

[lkfmdc]

They sound pretty bogus




plus one (+1)

[gummi]

Thanks for the responses. It is a bit confusing and I'm trying to work my way through it respectfully.
Is there Northern-style Lung?

[gummi]

Here's the thing. It's okay, up to a point. I do not want to disrespect the school or the people.
But it's a little cultish, directed long-distance (from a looooong way away) by a single individual who will answer nothing that one would typically expect.
Basic conditioning routines are the same as any. Blocks and kicks look pretty standard, but not named. They could be karate. It's a little mixed up and I don't know enough about Kung Fu movements to be able to tell.
Forms are completely different with different names. If they're made up, they're still good and based on something. They came from somewhere.

What I can't figure out is where it came from and what it's based on.

I'm okay with taking it as it is. Even if it's unconventional, it delivers discipline, agility, form, develops memorization skills, etc., like any marital art. But I just don't know how much to commit to it. There's not a lot of options where I'm at - the way I see it is that something is better than nothing.

My biggest problem is that I don't like sneaky stuff. I don't like dishonesty. Adapting something is one thing - lying about it is another. That's where it reduces the value for me, my confidence in the school, and respect for the instructors.

[TenTigers]

"super-secret, hidden to western eyes?"
Let me hazard a guess...the Sifu is not Asian...am I right?

[gummi]

My mission was not so much to talk about the particular school, but to discuss styles. There are very few resources to go to in my area.

[gummi]

Right. Not Asian, ethnicity or nationality. American, but trained at the Shaolin Temple since childhood. Doesn't explain how he lives in America.

[lkfmdc]

Right. Not Asian, ethnicity or nationality. American, but trained at the Shaolin Temple since childhood. Doesn't explain how he lives in America.

the loud sound you are now hearing is called the bull**** detector...

[TenTigers]

"Y'all better roll up yer pants,
y'already soiled yer shoes"-meaning, and this is not a slight towards you, Gumni, because you are simply inquiring, but from the little bit you've given us, it sounds like completely made-up stuff trying to pass for Kung-Fu.
There are telltale signs;
1)super secret hidden to western eyes systems, taught by westerners
2) mixing dialects and languages, Manderin,Cantonese, Japanese, English
3)claims of being taught by Monks, raised in temples, taught by Jesus...
4) Hokey, trying way too hard to sound Chinese and authentic-type names of systems, such as Temple of Five Tigers Style, Ten Tig-oops...:eek::o

[TenTigers]

Hey, How come he gets to write bull****, and I can't?

[Ben Gash]

Your forum fu is weak my friend :rolleyes:

[jdhowland]

My mission was not so much to talk about the particular school, but to discuss styles. There are very few resources to go to in my area.

Gummi, have you ever heard of Kurt Wong? He's Wu Tan, (7 star praying mantis, chen taijiquan, bajiquan) and he's good. He has a school in Anchorage.

Those guys who make wild claims will only embarrass you in the end. You can learn something, but it usually ends up being only crude calisthenics. A few minutes a week with a good teacher is better than years spent with the ego trippers who live in their own fantasies.

Good luck.

John

[jdhowland]

4) hokey, trying way too hard to sound chinese and authentic-type names of systems, such as temple of five tigers style, ten tig-oops...:eek::o

.......lol

[TenTigers]

The other thing is, Kung-Fu systems have very specific concepts and methods of moving, strategies, power generation, etc. People who make upi their own system have never been exposed to this and are teaching wavy movements that have no purpose. Quite often, these moves are completely contrary to how a Kung-Fu person moves. Therefore, they can end up causing you to not only waste your time learning useless stuff, but you can also develop very bad habits that will be ingrained in you.
Learning from a poor teacher can potentially ruin your chances to actually learn real Kung-Fu in the future from a good teacher.
So, even if it is the only show in town, it may better serve you to avoid it and either travel, or find another art.
There was a time that I learned TKD-only because at the time, I did not have access to Kung-Fu, so I found a very good traditional TKD teacher. This way, I learned correct structure and technique.
"It is better to spend ten years searching for a good Sifu,
than spend one year under a poor one."

[gummi]

I do know of Kurt Wong. Well-respected, stellar reputation. But unfortunately, not there anymore. The dojo is, though.

[Crushing Step]

Right. Not Asian, ethnicity or nationality. American, but trained at the Shaolin Temple since childhood. Doesn't explain how he lives in America.

Complete and total sh it.

The Shaolin Temple as it exists today is a circus troupe. Very athletic men, but they are gymnasts and acrobats. The original temple was burned and the masters killed, any fan of chop socky flicks knows that.

And the open I gave you for there maybe being a secret family style? I take it all back.

Invite your sifu here if you like, otherwise please find a new location.

[gummi]

Good advise, all.

Last question - do you know of a lineage with Master Jeng and Master Tsu (Hunan, China)?

[Crushing Step]

Good advise, all.

Last question - do you know of a lineage with Master Jeng and Master Tsu (Hunan, China)?

Common surnames, you would need to provide more. A quick google search for "master tsu hunan" came up with at least three names, though I am sure that is just scratching the surface.

[B-Rad]

Well, the story of an American trained from childhood in the Shaolin Temple pretty much proves the guy is a fraud, as it simply isn't possible. Regardless of if a master Tsu and Jeng exist, your guy is a liar.

[lkfmdc]

Hey, How come he gets to write bull****, and I can't?

because you don't know how to spell bull****? ;)

[Drake]

because you don't know how to spell bull****? ;)

I've had enough of your bull****, buddy...

[taai gihk yahn]

Right. Not Asian, ethnicity or nationality. American, but trained at the Shaolin Temple since childhood. Doesn't explain how he lives in America.

the part that would actually need some explaining would not be how an American lives in Amercia, but how he ended up as a child living in the Shaolin temple :rolleyes:

anyway, that claim right there, if one knows anything about the state of Shaolin these days, would instantly embed the person making that claim into Willy Wonka's World of Imagination;

and BTW, if he learned all his stuff at the Shaolin Temple, I mean, just take a look at any one of the literally hundreds of YouTube vids of actual authentic Shaolin stuff - it's all very well documented what they taught there historically, it wouldn't be anything that looks any different

save your time and money

[taai gihk yahn]

"super-secret, hidden to western eyes?"
Let me hazard a guess...the Sifu is not Asian...am I right?

I don't know what's more disconcerting - that it is true, or that you knew it was true just by that one phrase :p

[SoCo KungFu]

Thanks for the responses. It is a bit confusing and I'm trying to work my way through it respectfully.
Is there Northern-style Lung?

If a car salesman sold you a lemon that blew up 5 minutes down the road would you be respectful?

If the building inspector that looked over our house before you bought it said it was good to go, but three months later you have an electrical fire because it wasn't up to code...would you be respectful?

If a doctor prescribed you a drug without knowing your history and it nearly killed you would you be respectful?


These people are no different than any other jerk-off scam artist and why in the world you care to be respectful is beyond me. They don't care about you. You gonna be nice to the guy that just mugged you at the atm too?

[lkfmdc]

When I was around 14 or 15, we knew a guy who also said he had studied at Shaolin temple.... Like most guys like this, the story wasn't good enough "as is". He was also "Spanish royalty" and he had ended up in Beijing because his uncle wanted to study Judo (no, I'm not making this up!)

I was only 14 and I already knew enough to ask a few basic questions

1) You know that Shaolin Temple isn't exactly in Beijing right?

2) How were you there during the cultural revolution?

3) If you were there for any length of time, how come you don't know at least a FEW words in Chinese?

Of course, when my hing-dai went to China in 1984-85, he visited the temple, and at that time it was basicly a ruin and pretty empty... so much for being a secret shaolin judo monk :D

[Scott R. Brown]

You guys are just jealous and you don't have any imagination and aren't free spirits. You are all bound by your own world of illusion! If only you would bow down and take it where you need it, you would understand all the secrets and come to accept this super secret school as the real thing!

All you need to do is give up all your rational thought, free will, and responsibility to be one of the blessed. But it is clear you are not SPECIAL enough....so you will never know the secret teachings.

I know because I have done so....and LOOK what it did for me, Me, ME!....HEE! HEE! HEE! Tweedle Dee Dee!!!!:D

[taai gihk yahn]

I think that Scot_ is jealous because he never got to be a Secret Shaolin Judo Monk...

[Ben Gash]

I am the sole inheritor of Shaolin Judo! Whe I lived in Hong Kong I trained at the Shaolin temple and the abbott was Jigaro Kano's grandson. He taught me the secret anti-grappling methods which allow you to maim and disable a BJJ expert on the ground, and then passed on to me his secret Kuen Po which can only be read with special glasses.
If anyone wishes to train with me you must first forsake all other martial arts training and forget what you think you know. You must then sell your house, give me the proceeds and live in my garage.

[taai gihk yahn]

I am the sole inheritor of Shaolin Judo! Whe I lived in Hong Kong I trained at the Shaolin temple and the abbott was Jigaro Kano's grandson. He taught me the secret anti-grappling methods which allow you to maim and disable a BJJ expert on the ground, and then passed on to me his secret Kuen Po which can only be read with special glasses.
If anyone wishes to train with me you must first forsake all other martial arts training and forget what you think you know. You must then sell your house, give me the proceeds and live in my garage.

you had me sold until the part about selling my house - as if that's gonna happen in this market! :mad:

besides, you may be the sole inheritor, but I am the secret sole inheritor; at least I was until I mentioned it here...

[sha0lin1]

[QUOTE=JJMantis;954469]Complete and total sh it.

The Shaolin Temple as it exists today is a circus troupe. Very athletic men, but they are gymnasts and acrobats. The original temple was burned and the masters killed, any fan of chop socky flicks knows that.


Spoken like a person who only believes what he has read on the internet, in the movies and has not done his homework on Shaolin Temple.

[sha0lin1]

Right. Not Asian, ethnicity or nationality. American, but trained at the Shaolin Temple since childhood. Doesn't explain how he lives in America.

I have never heard of any American's that have trained at Shaolin since childhood. If this was true he would have a Shaolin name. Could you give us that?

[Crushing Step]

Spoken like a person who only believes what he has read on the internet, in the movies and has not done his homework on Shaolin Temple.

Spoken like a veiled insult.

[lkfmdc]

Spoken like a person who only believes what he has read on the internet, in the movies and has not done his homework on Shaolin Temple.

My best friend, the best man at my wedding, and Chan Tai San's disciple, was THERE at Shaolin in 1985... it was in ruins and there were only 6 monks there, ALL OLD.

This was before the commercial venture we now know as "Shaolin" started....

Those are the facts, and if you don't know them, you are the one who needs to do "homework"

[Lokhopkuen]

My mission was not so much to talk about the particular school, but to discuss styles. There are very few resources to go to in my area.

Generally even the most secret styles have been given some type of public exposure. The world of martial art particularly traditional Chinese martial art is a very small world. If the teachers and their lineages are "secret" or something just doesn't seem quite right it usually is a good indicator of a fraud being perpetrated. The contributors on this forum despite their lack of diplomacy are quite knowledgeable and could probably save you from wasting your time studying a style that amounts to made up nonsense.

[Scott R. Brown]

My best friend, the best man at my wedding, and Chan Tai San's disciple, was THERE at Shaolin in 1985... it was in ruins and there were only 6 monks there, ALL OLD.

This was before the commercial venture we now know as "Shaolin" started....

Those are the facts, and if you don't know them, you are the one who needs to do "homework"

Yes, I knew them all...I trained under them...I was a closed door, basement (and attic) student! I was granted a Masterhood by each of them. Each taught me a separate skill set and that is why I am now invincible!!!

Of course I can tell you their names if I wanted too, but I don't want too! They would disapprove and they trusted me to keep their identities hidden!

Also, if you REALLY know who they are, you don't need their names, and if you don't know who they are, their names will have no meaning to you!

and THAT is my proof that I am what I say I am!

And if you or anyone else doesn't like it, YOU CAN SUCK MY TOES!!!


....PLEASE!!!!:eek::D

[Scott R. Brown]

I think that Scot_ is jealous because he never got to be a Secret Shaolin Judo Monk...

Secret Shaolin Judo, is for open door students....we called them PANSIES

...back in the day!

[bawang]

Spoken like a person who only believes what he has read on the internet, in the movies and has not done his homework on Shaolin Temple.


the problem is they teach modern wushu to outsiders for money and in the end that hurts them

[Lucas]

is that secret shaolin judo master's name John Takeshi?

;):D

[gummi]

Respect? I always deliver respect or at least courtesy. It costs me nothing - it's free.

They don't promote the "secret" stuff so much. That's repeated by students from an earlier era.

What seems truly unlikely is that there would be an American child "studying" ancient Chinese culture of any nature in the 1960s, with Chairman Mao and the Red Guard running amok.
To be a Shaolin or Taoist priest, he would have to have been ordained by someone. He doesn't seem to want to say and clearly not open to questions.

What I cannot rationalize is the lineage. They claim that its ancient without alteration for 2,000 years. If he can't say who trained him, and in what, I doubt everything. He practices something and is expert in it. The question is - what is it?

A very good obvious point earlier on this thread - if it's 'authentic' Northern-style Shaolin kung fu, it would be consistent with other schools and systems, not something different.

Thanks for the feedback~

[Lucas]

a style of MA that hasnt evolved ANY in 2000 years? :eek:

RUN, RUN VERY FAR AWAY!

im sorry but evolution of material is at the core of shaolin wushu. shaolin was a melting pot for martial arts in china. think ancient MMA


most likely the guy didnt finish his training and made up a line of BS lineage to compensate for the fact that he has none, and it is apparently important for him to have some sort of fantastic lineage.

i mean, he may be a great martial artists, only one way to know, but personally i dont give credit to anyone who bases a foundation for students in obvious lies.

[Ben Gash]

Should also point out that the shaolin temple itself is only 1500 years old :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

that only goes to show how super secret it is. His Shaolin Kung-Fu predates Shaolin.

[David Jamieson]

the problem is they teach modern wushu to outsiders for money and in the end that hurts them

if they wanna learn modern wushu how does that hurt them?

[cerebus]

if they wanna learn modern wushu how does that hurt them?

It does so because Shaolin is claiming to teach traditional Kung Fu, but is really teaching contemporary wushu. In other words, they are bringing dishonesty to their teaching.

[lkfmdc]

It does so because Shaolin is claiming to teach traditional Kung Fu, but is really teaching contemporary wushu. In other words, they are bringing dishonesty to their teaching.

there is a "monk" teaching Chen Style and calling it "shaolin taiji" :rolleyes:

his former friend, a disciple of chen xiaowang, doesn't find it the least amusing

[TenTigers]

well, after seeing,"Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," I predicted there would be Wudan schools popping up all over, and lo and behold-there are Wudan Monks suddenly teaching at Wudan-teaching contemporary forms. Chang Zhengfeng Tai-Chi..Wudan Bagua...
One guy, who came over from China, taught Tai-Chi at Stony Brook University, a few years later, he has the top knot, long robe and the lunchbag on his head (you know, that hat they wear) , claiming to be a Wudan Monk.
If they made a movie of The Wandering Taoist (Chronicles of Tao)you can bet there will be guys claiming Hua Shan as their style.

[Lokhopkuen]

well, after seeing,"Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," I predicted there would be Wudan schools popping up all over, and lo and behold-there are Wudan Monks suddenly teaching at Wudan-teaching contemporary forms. Chang Zhengfeng Tai-Chi..Wudan Bagua...
One guy, who came over from China, taught Tai-Chi at Stony Brook University, a few years later, he has the top knot, long robe and the lunchbag on his head (you know, that hat they wear) , claiming to be a Wudan Monk.
If they made a movie of The Wandering Taoist (Chronicles of Tao)you can bet there will be guys claiming Hua Shan as their style.

Hua Shan is some **** good exercise!
WhyTF can't I type D A M N ?

[Ben Gash]

I've trained at Wudang, and TBF the schools there largely predate (in origin if not current form) CTHD, it's just their exposure to western eyes is greater now. Remember, kung fu tourism to Wudang existed in Sun Lu Tang's time ;)
The forms taught at the bulk of the schools are actually really good forms, and if they're modern, then they're what sport wushu could and should have been, rather than what it is. Some forms have certainly been restructured, but we're talking Wong Fei Hung restructuring, not Wu Bin. The forms all display strong traditional Kung Fu principles, and are really quite interesting, and have their own distinct flavour.
Also worth bearing in mind that most schools in Wudang only really cater to Chinese students, and CTHD wasn't very popular in China (and indeed Wudang actually isn't that well known in China).
The counterpoint to this is the official demonstration teams who give displays to tourists, who DO do wushu-ised stuff, and the awful ****genised Taiyiwuxingquan they've started teaching to kids.

[sha0lin1]

My best friend, the best man at my wedding, and Chan Tai San's disciple, was THERE at Shaolin in 1985... it was in ruins and there were only 6 monks there, ALL OLD.

This was before the commercial venture we now know as "Shaolin" started....

Those are the facts, and if you don't know them, you are the one who needs to do "homework"

Yes I know. However, a lot of the old fighting styles were pieced back together from the old masters and families that knew and practiced the old sets and some of the older manuals that were not destroyed. This is also what Shi De Shan describes when he arrived at Shaolin during that time frame.

[sha0lin1]

the problem is they teach modern wushu to outsiders for money and in the end that hurts them

They teach modern wushu to outsiders if you want to learn it. If you want to learn only traditional you will learn that.

[sha0lin1]

there is a "monk" teaching Chen Style and calling it "shaolin taiji" :rolleyes:

his former friend, a disciple of chen xiaowang, doesn't find it the least amusing

Shaolin claims that Tai Chi was a product of Shaolin because Chang San Feng was a Shaolin Monk prior to founding Tai Chi at Wudang. So it goes that what he created was based on Shaolin martial arts. Shaolin Tai Chi is very similar to Chen Tai Chi but there are differences.

[Ben Gash]

They teach modern wushu to outsiders if you want to learn it. If you want to learn only traditional you will learn that.

I know that at Shi De Yan's school you have to do sport wushu for 3+ years before they'll teach you any Shaolin. Considering that Shaolin basics and sport wushu basics are pretty different, kinda pointless and seems a bit of a scam.

[sha0lin1]

It does so because Shaolin is claiming to teach traditional Kung Fu, but is really teaching contemporary wushu. In other words, they are bringing dishonesty to their teaching.

A lot of people on here hold that belief and it is a belief that is based on heresay. "A friend who went told me this, " "I read that." If you go to Shaolin and train, not just visit, you will find just the opposite. Yes they train Contemporary but traditional is still very much alive. When I was there that was practically all I saw, traditional training.

I can't believe that after 1500 years of existance, "real Shaolin kung fu" can only be found here in the U.S. Maybe people need to take their blinders off and open up to the fact that "real Shaolin" from Shaolin Temple is here in the U.S. now and stop protecting their fantasies that their arts and schools hold the real Shaolin Techniques. Now I love the Kung Fu T.V. series as much as the next guy but that T.V. show, the cultural revolution, and China's isolation on the international level for so many years made it very easy for people to claim they are teaching Shaolin Temple Kung Fu.

[sha0lin1]

I know that at Shi De Yan's school you have to do sport wushu for 3+ years before they'll teach you any Shaolin. Considering that Shaolin basics and sport wushu basics are pretty different, kinda pointless and seems a bit of a scam.

Well I can't and won't speak for what they teach at other schools, all I can do is speak from my experience and training at my school. The fundamental basics of both are the same Ma Bu, Gong Bu, Pu Bu. Don't forget, Contemporary was built from Traditional. Prior to learning any Contemporary I was a staunch traditionalist just like many people on here. Till one day my teacher started teaching me some modern. Then I changed my mind. It was a lot of fun, and very difficult to do. A good workout for sure. Anyway, at our school we do it differently. We teach traditional first to help build strength, speed, and the stamina you will need to do the modern. Of course unless you flat out just want to learn modern.

[Ben Gash]

Except the Ma Bu and Gong Bu are different..........

[lkfmdc]

"A friend who went told me this, "



My friend had studied Hung Ga and 7 star mantis BEFORE going to China, studied contemporary at the Beijing Physical Culture institute and then became a disciple of Chan Tai San

He was there in 1985 and reported that the place was in ruins and no one was there

Which isn't surprising if you know the history. Do YOU know the history?




I can't believe that after 1500 years of existance, "real Shaolin kung fu" can only be found here in the U.S.



There is probably very little real Shaolin in the US either

And what "real Shaolin" you can find in China really isn't at Shaolin temple. AGAIN, do YOU know the HISTORY?

In the 80's when the government wanted to "rebuild Shaolin" they searched for someone with both Buddhist and Shaolin martial arts credentials. That man was Hoi Dong Faht Si. He was a legit Buddhist monk AND had a martial arts lineage that could reliably be traced back to Shaolin at some point

THERE ARE VERY FEW LINEAGES / SYSTEMS IN CHINA THAT CAN ACTUALLY BE RELIABLY CHARTED BACK TO SHAOLIN

Of course, when Hoi Dong didn't play ball with the government, they removed him. But that's another story (and grief for Gene likely)

Finally, contemporary and traditional are "related" but that does not mean "same" by any stretch

[IronWeasel]

Don't forget, Contemporary was built from Traditional.




Much in the same way that LARP was built from real vampires.:cool:

[Scott R. Brown]

My friend had studied Hung Ga and 7 star mantis BEFORE going to China, studied contemporary at the Beijing Physical Culture institute and then became a disciple of Chan Tai San

He was there in 1985 and reported that the place was in ruins and no one was there

Which isn't surprising if you know the history. Do YOU know the history?



There is probably very little real Shaolin in the US either

And what "real Shaolin" you can find in China really isn't at Shaolin temple. AGAIN, do YOU know the HISTORY?

In the 80's when the government wanted to "rebuild Shaolin" they searched for someone with both Buddhist and Shaolin martial arts credentials. That man was Hoi Dong Faht Si. He was a legit Buddhist monk AND had a martial arts lineage that could reliably be traced back to Shaolin at some point

THERE ARE VERY FEW LINEAGES / SYSTEMS IN CHINA THAT CAN ACTUALLY BE RELIABLY CHARTED BACK TO SHAOLIN

Of course, when Hoi Dong didn't play ball with the government, they removed him. But that's another story (and grief for Gene likely)

Finally, contemporary and traditional are "related" but that does not mean "same" by any stretch

I love it when you start telling stories....please continue if you have the time!:)

[lkfmdc]

A lesser known chapter in the history of the "death of Shaolin" came in 1927-1928 during a military campaign between the nationalist army under Chiang Kai-Shek and a warlord named Miao (distint relative of my ex-wife! That family!)

The campaign ended with Miao held up on the mountain and a barrage of KMG shelling which damaged the temple yet again....

This is why the temple was already in ruins and pretty much empty even BEFORE the cultural revolution

[Ben Gash]

Did people not know that?
Dave, thinking about things (there's been a lot of "discussion" on the southern forum about Hung Mun history) do you think it's possible that the famous destruction of the shaolin temple by the Qing (an event that noone seems to be able to nail down accurately) could just be a distortion of the known destruction of the temple by Li Zicheng's forces at the end of the Ming Dynasty, as part of the retro history associated with the Han nationalist movement around the turn of the 19th century onwards? In Brian Kennedy's book it states that the association of the Shaolin temple as the pinnacle of martial arts which is intrinsic to the story is even later than that.

[B-Rad]

Other than Hoi Dong Faht Si, what lineages CAN be reliably traced back to the temple? How about the other old monks that were brought there? Also, I'd read before that he was a monk from the Emei area and taught some kind of Emei-Shaolin offshoot (I think from Liang Shou Yu's book... don't know his source though). You know if this is accurate?

Also, aren't there village teachers nearby that teach fairly authentic Shaolin if asked for it?

[lkfmdc]

do you think it's possible that the famous destruction of the shaolin temple by the Qing (an event that noone seems to be able to nail down accurately) could just be a distortion of the known destruction of the temple by Li Zicheng's forces at the end of the Ming Dynasty, as part of the retro history associated with the Han nationalist movement around the turn of the 19th century onwards?



Jean Chesneaux (think that is correct spelling?) did the first serious academic research on secret societies and came to the conclusion that most of the stories about Shaolin were nothing more than clever recruiting schemes for the Triad organizations.... not in the least grounded in any fact or true event(s)

The lack of education and literacy, the need to obscure facts where criminal and rebellous activies were concerned, the need to create "heroes", and a cultural propensity to fabricate (that's being nice btw) all lead me to believe that getting a true history of any of these martial arts is well impossible

[lkfmdc]

Other than Hoi Dong Faht Si, what lineages CAN be reliably traced back to the temple?



According to research that was done in the late 70's, the Lo Han Myuhn/L Han Men system that is practiced in the Shanghai area can be directly linked back to Shaolin

In the 1950's in Taiwan there was a man who actually studied in Shaolin BEFORE the 1928 military campaign ... Drager and Smith took some movies and stills of him doing some stuff

Certain sets like Hong Quan are definitely Shaolin, but ironically they were BROUGHT BACK TO SHAOLIN during the infamous "rebirth" period the government initiated to get foreign capital

[sha0lin1]

My friend had studied Hung Ga and 7 star mantis BEFORE going to China, studied contemporary at the Beijing Physical Culture institute and then became a disciple of Chan Tai San

He was there in 1985 and reported that the place was in ruins and no one was there

Which isn't surprising if you know the history. Do YOU know the history?



There is probably very little real Shaolin in the US either

And what "real Shaolin" you can find in China really isn't at Shaolin temple. AGAIN, do YOU know the HISTORY?

In the 80's when the government wanted to "rebuild Shaolin" they searched for someone with both Buddhist and Shaolin martial arts credentials. That man was Hoi Dong Faht Si. He was a legit Buddhist monk AND had a martial arts lineage that could reliably be traced back to Shaolin at some point

THERE ARE VERY FEW LINEAGES / SYSTEMS IN CHINA THAT CAN ACTUALLY BE RELIABLY CHARTED BACK TO SHAOLIN

Of course, when Hoi Dong didn't play ball with the government, they removed him. But that's another story (and grief for Gene likely)

Finally, contemporary and traditional are "related" but that does not mean "same" by any stretch

I don't need to be asked twice about Shaolin History. Of course I know the history. Based on what my master has taught me, what I have read in books like Shahar's, research I have done on the internet, and also what I saw and learned when I was at Shaolin. Yes it is well known that in the 80's the temple was in ruins. However, there were still monks that were living nearby and caring for the Temple during this period. Among them Shi Suxi, Shi Deyang's master. Some were living in caves. Many also had diseminated out into the surrounding area and entered the secular life. These masters were keeping the art alive by teaching it to certain students. It is sad that much material was lost after the destruction of the library in 1928 but a lot of it is still preserved today.

[bawang]

the problem of shaolin is when the jet li shaolin temple movie aired thousands of people wanted to join shaolin. my uncle told me there were thousands of young people running away from home swarming the villages next to shaolin. most people that joined didnt want to fight but just wanted to look cool
the traditional training is there;; theres nothing secret or mystical about shaolin training, its just common northern long fist training. its just nobody wants to train them

theres nothing cool or hip or trendy about traditional shaolin/most kung fu training. you train in a moldy old house with some wooden tools and stone weights then hit some stinky sand bags. you stand in horse stance all day then do bicep curls and squats with square rocks. then you get to rub a lotion on you and one of the secret ingredients is human pee. not very exciting


after two months with my grandfathers friend training just some common northern excercises visiting home i wanted to commit suicide literlaly. in the first 2 or 3 hours training oooo you feel good the endorphin makes you feel great wooo you are fantasy kung fu warrior you can hear the wong fei hong song in your head, then after breakfast you train 2 more hours and after lunch 2 more after dinner 2 more you want to die literally
i understand why shaolin wants to teach modern wushu to big city fancy chinese and westerners, but calling it shaolin is fraud



to answer gummi about that five tiger dragon that style is fake because northern kung fu has no secrets. you punch really hard and hit things and hit yourself things

[David Jamieson]

Don't forget Se Ko Sam (Shi Gao Can)

A shaolin monk (trained there in teh early 1900's and left during the civil war) who traveled through singapore and malaysia who died in the early 60's and propagated "sil lum" kungfu which has become extant to dutch indos as "shaolim" and is woven into the tapestry of martial arts all over the place across those islands.

Hood Gar came from this is as well. It is not widely practiced in Europe, north or south america, but then, there are actually quite a few derivations of sil lum that are extant in asian countries and virtually unknown here in the euro-centric countries.

[Ben Gash]

Sek Koh Sum's stuff is really common in europe.

[sha0lin1]

Don't forget Se Ko Sam (Shi Gao Can)

A shaolin monk (trained there in teh early 1900's and left during the civil war) who traveled through singapore and malaysia who died in the early 60's and propagated "sil lum" kungfu which has become extant to dutch indos as "shaolim" and is woven into the tapestry of martial arts all over the place across those islands.

Hood Gar came from this is as well. It is not widely practiced in Europe, north or south america, but then, there are actually quite a few derivations of sil lum that are extant in asian countries and virtually unknown here in the euro-centric countries.

I have a guy in my school that trained in Bak Sil Lum for a while. He has shown me some of his forms. His open hand stuff I don't recognize but two staff forms he has shown me are identical to our Yin Shou Gun and Shaolin Duan Gun.